You know better than to talk about "odd kill choices." Bad boy. Bad, bad, bad boy.
Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!
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Glork Burdened by Proficiency
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Vote: MBL
You know better than to talk about "odd kill choices." Bad boy. Bad, bad, bad boy.-
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MBL seems to want to begin the often-fruitless process of "nightkill choice speculation." The only ones among us who could have any legitimate insight into the scums' kills would be the scums themselves. MBL is experienced enough to know by now that talking about N1 kills (especially in a night-start game) is rarely (if ever) useful.
I'd like MBL to answer BBB's question only because I'm curious myself to know why exactly MBL would label a spectrumvoid kill as "odd." But for the most part, I want to nip this "speculation on why so-and-so was killed" issue in the bud. Simply put, we will not be able to discern anything at all from who was killed. And any insinuations that X might be scum because Y died will without a doubt get a vote from me.-
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...because Guardian is clearly being 100% serious.MrBuddyLee wrote:
Glork is innocuously wrong, but clearly this is worse.Guardian wrote:Willing to join a Glork wagon ^_^.
If you're wrong Glork, you're public enemy #1
unvote, vote: Guardian
Also, your failure to respond to BeanBagBoy has been noted.-
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Because the vast majority of the time, D1 speculation on N1 kills is either completely inconclusive or completely wrong. I have seen scums try to speculate on why (or what kind of player) would kill Player X simply to mislead the town. It's a known scumtell.-
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GUARDIAN IS GOOFING AROUND BECAUSE THIS IS THE EARLY/RANDOM STAGE OF THE GAME. PLEASE GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD, BATTLE MAGE.
Thank you. That is all.-
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You're kidding, right? You mean you think that Guardian actually believes that I am the perfect mafia player and that I know all of the scums' identities without everyone even having posted yet? You think that language like "I demanded that he find all five scum" and "Tsk tsk Glork" is "far from a joke"?
Please stop talking, BM. You're just making yourself look like a fool.-
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Glork Burdened by Proficiency
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This man is very obviously pro-town.The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Only average!
I'll show you average:
vote:Albert-
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You're cute when you do this.MrBuddyLee wrote:Glork's hyper-protection of Guardian noted.-
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Mod: When exactly did Battle Mage replace DanMonkey in this game?-
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1)MOSTplayers who are somewhat familiar with me expect me to play reasonably well as town. It's something that I'm used to and I can tell you that it doesn't mean a damned thing
2) If Guardian hadactuallypursued a lynch on me for not finding scum,thenwe would know that he was not joking and that he was scummy.
3) It does not change the words that Guardian said, but it changes themeaningorsignificanceof what he said. If I said "HAY GUYZ, I AM SCUM!!!!" it would be obvious that I wasjoking. Thus, while I would still have said that I was scum, the fact thatI was not being serious about claiming scum means that the statement holds no weight whatsoever.
Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage-
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He isn't joking about me being a capable scumhunter. He's joking about the "if he doesn't find us all of the scums, he is probably scum himself" comment.Battle Mage wrote:@Glork-you are making no sense. Guardian made a comment that you were good at catching scum. you say this is TRUE, yet you also say he was JOKING. Please can you make your mind up about what defence you are going for here?-
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Battle Mage wrote:lol i seem to be getting more and more games like this.This is a sign that you should probably be doing something about your gameplay.-
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As frustrated as I am with BM, I don't like the speed with which this wagon has grown. I'm going to take aim andUnvote, Vote: HungryJoefor his behavior regarding BM.-
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Most mafia players will always attack players whom they believe are acting scummy. I remember going after Twomz in like every game I played with him, because his play was just... scummy. You're acting as though, because you choose to be scummy, every other player should cater to your playstyle; that should never happen, and it's just not going to.Battle Mage wrote:have you considered the possibility that my gameplay, which you so often say distracts from lynching the actual scum, would work better if you STOPPED DRAWING ATTENTION TO ME SO POINTLESSLY.
i mean lets face it, i may look scummy in lots of games where i am town, but srsly, its rather hypocritical to say that i distract the town, when it is the people who pounce on such logic that distract the town.
Scummy play is bad for the town.
Deliberately scummy play is worse for the town.
Thus, any good town will try to weed out scummy play.
Since you ADMIT that you act scummy as town, you must be willing to ACCEPT that you will be attacked in basically every game you play. Do not try to pass everyone else off as being hypocritical. This is not a town with 6 or 8 or however-many-votes-and-FoSes-you-got hypocrites in it. It's a town with people who see somebodyacting like they are idiotic scum, and are taking action against the percieved scumbag.-
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He was the fifth vote (within exactly eleven posts) on the first non-random bandwagon of the game. He voices apparent regret for having made the vote and insinuates that it's BM's own doing, but makes the vote anyway -- yet he paints it in "if you can be logical about your defense, I'm willing to move away." It seems a little forced to me right now. I get the feeling that HJ either knows BM won't present a logical, persuasive defense, or that he wants to sugar-coat his wagon-vote by giving himself an out to leave the bandwagon.
Then, when Guardian jumps off, he starts to waver -- but he still throws in that "just lynch me already is a minor scumtell" (which, by the way, is something that I would actually disagree with).
Still, the fact that he abides by his scumtell
In the meantimeMajor FoS: Albertfor his bandwagon mentality. That's usually very dangerous for a town. Instead of looking for a bandwagon to jump onto, try forumlating your own opinion. Wagoning one player and then asking another player to explain the case against him is bizarre.
I think right now, I'd be willing to vote for HJ, Albert, BBB, or YB.
TCS, BT, and Jack seem pretty legit to me.
NikZero, Johhan, Coron, ~N9V~, and Shteven need to post (more).-
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Okay, BM... "deliberate" definitely wasn't the correct word there. You've observed that most players around here find your play to be scummy, and as I suggested earlier, it might be an indication that you'd want to evolve your play a bit.
To a certain extent, I agree with your assertion that people should look for "typical BM-Scmmy" versus "unusual BM-Scummy." Adopting one's view on other players is an integral part of proper metagaming, whether you think they are "always scummy," "always pro-town," or "always" something-else. It's just that play that always seems scummy is inherently more frustrating, and as Mafia is a game fraught with paranoia, when I see scummy play, my first thougnt -- no matterwhois making that play -- is "they're scum!"
That said, the post you just made has pretty much convinced me that you're pro-town.-
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It's not the HJ-vote.Albert B. Rampage wrote:Woah woah.
That just makes 2 votes on HJ. What's wrong with applying pressure ?
You indicated that you wanted to join a wagon:
This indicates that you were first looking for a bandwagon to jump onto. Failing that, you wanted to look elsehwere -- so you latched onto another player without fully understanding what they were harping on.Albert (emphasis mine) wrote:I'm uneasy with a BM vote,and the only other bandwagon is on me, so...-
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So explain to me why you're not just voting him yourself?Albert B. Rampage wrote:
Inactive, and OMGUS-ing.Glork wrote:Why a Johhan wagon?
I still don't understand why you feel the need to park your vote in the same places as other people. It makes no sense to me. Vote for whomeverYOUfind scummiest.-
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*raises eyebrow*The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Albert, I know you're "on my side," but I'm not feeling comfortable with you at all at the moment.-
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...so because they're just "initial impressions," they aren't worth pursuing?-
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I'm not in favor of a meta-lynch of BM either. I'm in favor of getting him to adapt his playstyle so that he isn't practicallyalwaysan immediate suspect-
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...which, I will note, we didn't do. (Speed-lynch BM, that is.)Jack wrote:
Frankly I don't see why heGlork wrote:I'm not in favor of a meta-lynch of BM either. I'm in favor of getting him to adapt his playstyle so that he isn't practicallyalwaysan immediate suspectisalways an immediate suspect and such people are useful as scum-bait anyway. The town just has to be smart enough to not speed lynch them.
But no, I agree with TCS that it tends to be distracting much more often than helpful. Your suspicion of me, as far as I can tell, stems from our difference in philosophies regarding this matter. Stating that you disagree with my stance/points on a general metagame topic does not equate to thinking somebody is scum.
At any rate, if you think that BM became "scum-bait" this time around, which players jumping on him do you think were scums, and why?
-You stated YogurtBandit for not understanding what he was saying against BM
-You stated Beanbagboy for seeming wagon-happy
-You stated me because you disagree with me
Is there more? Would you mind elaborating on these suspicions? How do you distinguish Beanbagboy's behavior from Albert's behavior?
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...Albert B. Rampage wrote:
Why ?Glork wrote:...so because they're just "initial impressions," they aren't worth pursuing?
I was asking you if this is how you feel. It's what you seemed to imply, to me. I interpreted your statement as such: "They're just initial impressions, so I didn't want to keep my vote on someone I thought was scummy; I'd rather bandwagon at this point."
Is this not what you meant? What did you mean?-
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Heh. We seem to be having a fundamental breakdown in communication, Albert.
Why did you not pursue more information regardingJohhanand choose to go after somebodywho was being suspected by somebody else?-
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Shteven/Jack: If you could quote exactly which posts/lines you find off-base andwhyyou don't like them, then perhaps I could actually respond to your inklings.-
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Because I often see bogus wagons spring up this way. Two or three players get "feelings" or "vibes." Somebody else (a scumbag) decides to "agree." The wagonee asks why, and is suspicious for wanting to know the case against him, instead of pre-emptively answering that undefined case.Jack wrote:
Why are you so eager to?Glork wrote:Shteven/Jack: If you could quote exactly which posts/lines you find off-base andwhyyou don't like them, then perhaps I could actually respond to your inklings.
You seem to be doing all the legwork yourself though, this time. Would you rather I just skip straight to voting for you?
In other news....
Shteven: I have no idea what you're talking about re:#2. I moved my vote from MBL to BM on Page 3, and from BM to HungryJoe since then. I have also FoS'd Albert in the process. Pay attention. *Smack*
HungryJoe: If you were paying attention, my vote for Battle Mage was essentially for the same reasons that you voted for him. I found his attack on Guardian to be horribly overstated, and he was trying to justify it to an unreasonable degree.
In the meantime, I will note that I have, in the past, jumped from somebody I was attacking straight onto somebody else on that same wagon. The most recent example I can think of is McDonald's Mafia, in which the town was also very bandwagonny early in the game. I went from Amb (Traitor Scum) to DoS (Scum) because I didn't like the way that DoS jumped on the Ambwagon --even though I already suspected Amb for my own reasons.So, while you may not like what I did here, I don't think you have evidence to back that up as a scumtell... whereas I *do* have evidence to back it up as being consistent with pro-town Glork.
I will furthermore point out that just because a player gives a reason for voting somebody doesNOTautomatically make them less likely to be scum. You seem to be implying the opposite. In fact, I would argue that in a significant percentage of cases, people who throw on supplementary, or additional weak reasons are scumbags who join the wagon, hoping to fan the flames against their victims.
HungryJoe's FoSes of me and Albert seem too OMGUSy for my liking. My vote stands as is.-
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...this after joining my HungryJoe vote rather than voting where his own suspicions laid. Somebody does indeed seemHungryJoe wrote:Part two:
What? I just made a post in which I was trying to say "Albert and Glork look a little bit suspicious here", and you jump onto my boat and vote for Glork?
...what? O_overycontent to vote wherever he thinks momentum may lie.
...my point is that I wasn't convinced that you jumped on the wagon with "a good reason." The "supplementary weak reason" that I was talking about which I found scummy is exactly what I was accusing you of doing.HungryJoe wrote:Maybe so, Glork, but as a townie I would find it hard to get on a bandwagon without showing some kind of reasoning. I mean, I haven't been in that many games, but jumping on a BW without a good reason is not exactly pro-town here.
The "meh, go ahead and lynch me" attitude isNOTa reliable scumtell. Not in the least. My past game experience has shown it to be no better than 50-50 in determining whether a player is town; if anything, I'd say it actually leans slightly in thetowndirection. This is why I saw your reasoning as being shoddy at best.
However, now that I think about it... if you're new-ish, I wouldn't expect you to know that fact, and I understand how you can see the "I don't care if I die" attitude as being very anti-town. So I must necessarily retract my primary reason for suspecting you.Unvote... in spite of the "double-OMGUS" that I mentioned a short time ago.
I still find it beyond confusing that, while Albert has stated his own suspicions of Johhan for being inactive and for OMGUSing, and has stated that he would like to see a wagon on Johhan, hestilldecides that he'd rather just follow somebody else's lead... this time jumping onto me.
I also find it interesting that Albert laments over the two deaths, calling them "two of the best players" in the game... like Coron said, I would place multiple players (MBL, Glork, Coron for sure... possibly others such as TCS or HackerHuck) above SV and/or JDodge in terms of "good scumhunters." But if Albert thought they were "two of the best," that would certainly givehimincentive to kill one of them.
I was hesitant to join the Albert-wagon earlier, because it grew so large so quickly... but I am now thinking that his mob-mentality attitude is not a pro-town sentiment. Call it OMGUS if you will, butVote: Albert.
Also...
Mod(s): Prod Coron, Johhan, and Nik Zero, and ~N9V~ (in 5 hours) in accordance with Rule #10, please.-
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No. I was attacking MBL for calling the SV kill "odd."Jack wrote:
This is exactly what you were attacking MBL for.Glork wrote:But if Albert thought they were "two of the best," that would certainly give him incentive to kill one of them.Vote:Glork
...and I kept it there for his refusing to explain why he thought it was odd.
Don't paint my primary reason for voting Albert as being his early-game comments. It is a known that lamentation (or celebration) over night-deaths is a common scumtell, and that is what I was getting at. Either way my main reason for voting for Albert is his bandwagony nature. Donotstrawman me, Jack.-
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EBWODP: In fact, note, Jack, that I didn't even call itscummywhat Albert did. I called itINTERESTING. That part of the paragraph was more my thinking aloud as to whether Albert's initial comments were significant -- whether he was trying to be the "good little townie" by being sad about the "good scumhunters" who died.-
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FWIW, I find Guardian's later posts to be mildly disturbing myself.
Also, for the most part, BT did get the gist of the point I was trying to make. I suppose I should qualify/clarify what I meant about speculation on nightkills.
When it is the leading/only discussion or source of suspicion, I find it to be inherently scummy -- there are way too many factors which can go into determining how a player or a scumgroup chooses a kill. Heck, sometimes (me as Godfather in Caddyshack) an N1 kill can be chosen entirely at random. Soin and of itself, speculation on who would have incentive to kill somebody is not very useful.
That said, even in light of other evidence, it's not always reliable. (Yes, I'm downplaying my own point here, to a small extent.) BUT... the reason that I feel Albert's case is exceptional is because of his lamentation over the deaths. Jeep's common scumtells reflects this. (Though it is erroneously listed as a Day 2+ Tell -- I believe this is because Day Start used to be the norm, and so it was impossible to have this tell on D1.) I meant to emphasizethispoint, but it may have come out wrong, and Jack seems to want to harp on the "and he said he thought they were good" comment.-
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It's a scumtell, but I am not supremely confident in its reliability. Still, I wanted to bring it up because there are other things about Albert which I do find scummy.-
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...any thoughts on this specific game, rather than a side-comment on claiming theory in general?Coron wrote:
I disagree.The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
It's better to get lynched than claim vanilla. FYI.Albert B. Rampage wrote:Hmm...
I claim vanilla townie-
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I have to agree with TCS on this one. I see him making the comment regardless of what Albert's alignment would be.
In fact, I would say that "getting lynched is better than claming vanilla" isapplicable if Albert is scum than if Albert is town.more
As town, Albert has two choices: Claim vanilla or refuse to claim (assuming, of course, that Albert is not stupid enough to lie as town).
As scum, Albert could have claimed to be a Cop (fishing for a counterclaim from a second Cop), a Doctor (pretty much uncounterable at this point, and likely to recieve protection from at least one other Doc if he is believed), Vig (not advisable -- he gets himself vigged if there is one, and cannot prove himself if there isn't one), or Vanilla. Vig at least forces him to be killed/lynched later and provides for the chance of a mislynch today. Vanilla doesn't help him at all. Cop or Doc are clearly the best plays, and claiming Vanilla is the worst play.
So... TCS's statement makes sense to me regardless of what Albert's alignment is or what knowledge TCS has on Albert.
I see where you were going with this, MBL, but you're just plain wrong this time around.-
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Okay, I see what you're saying regarding TCS's statement.
Now, I would argue that the fact that he talks specifically about claimingvanillais significant. In a game like this, somebody who claims to be vanilla willnotgive the rest of the town any reason via claim to deter their wagon -- regardless of whether they are scum or town. Beacuse claiming Vanilla is so utterly pointless, one might as well just allow themselves to be lynched. That's what TCS was getting at.
Nevertheless, even if I accept your meaning as being the correct interpretation, I find
to be untrue. Suppose TCS was a cop who had investigated Albert as being innocent. Suppose TCS had just legitimately come to the conclusion that Albert was town and thought he was still "a dumb-ass townie." You seem to have this constant aversion to people who state with any semblance of certainty that somebody is of a certain alignment. I think that's one of the things that bothers me, because you tend to think so damned black-and-white. Perhaps you're right and TCS really is scum and slipped up -- I currently find that to be rather unlikely.MBL wrote:TCS's reaction was a water-treading exercise and a bizarre first thing to post unless hewas scum whoinstinctively thought, "What a dumb-ass townie" and blurted that out.
MBL, could you point out specific cases in which your affinity for "slip-ups" hasactually caught scum red-handed? I've recognized this as a favored tactic of yours, and I disagree with it. I am the kind of player who adopts a much more open interpretation to that kind of posting -- as I said, there are many reasons that a player might conclude that somebody is pro-town -- and I do not think that it makes a legitimate case in and of itself. I'd like to see some hardcore evidence that it actually worksmore often than it leads nowherebefore I can even begin to accept your reason for voting TCS. Right now, to me, it looks like you're trying to distract from the Albertwagon by making a lot of noise in another direction.-
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No, no, no, no. Power roles should always claim what they are.
If Albert is indeed a vanilla townie, and he survives today, then the mafia will know that if they go power-role-hunting at night, they should not worry about killing Albert. So if they're looking for clues/hints as to who might have a power-role, they would have one less potential target.-
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....are you trying to tell me you've found nothing else to go on?MBL wrote: But in the absence of anything else to go on, they'resomething-
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Hint: I am pro-town.MBL wrote:I'm entirely unsure of his alignment-
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No, this is like Jeopardy. I give him the answer, and he asks the question.YogurtBandit wrote:
If that's the hint, whats the answer?Glork wrote:
Hint: I am pro-town.MBL wrote:I'm entirely unsure of his alignment
Anywho... I didn't like Shteven's post much. It seems resigned to Albert being town with the whole "well, you can't catch scum D1 all that often," yet he claims that Albert "goofed" or "played badly intentionally" in claiming Townie... and he decides to keep his vote on Albert. This just isn't adding up for me.
I find the discussion between Albert/Yogurt and the spam from Jack to be annyoing and distracting. I do, however, find Yogurt somewhat less scummy than I had previously.
NikZero and HungryJoe need to be replaced.
Still happy with my vote for the time being, I suppose. This game needs more substantial posts from many more players.-
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Re: Yos:
I believe I've tired to qualify/clarify this, but my scumtell against nightkill speculation is strongest at the very onset of a game. I feel this is so because there are so many factors which go into deciding how a group makes a kill, and when a player chooses to draw conclusions on scums based on a limited number (usually one) of these factors, it tends to scream "MISDIRECTION" to me.
I attribute my unusually terse response in this game to the fact that I recently replaced into a game where another player had done a very similar thing, and I don't want to see this as a growing trend. I'm reasonably sure that I could go back in some archived games and find examples of how I voiced my opinions against nightkill speculation (though none are coming to me off the top of my head).
I disagree with your second point 100%. BM's attack on Guardian had no basis, as Guardian's demands of me were unreasonable to an obviously-joking degree. Insulting or not, BM was acting like a complete fool by not only taking Guardian's post seriously, but also through his repeated adamant defense of his clearly-incorrect (and mostly untenable) stance. So yes, I think it was worthwhile for him to stop talking. About that.
I'm going to have to backpedal a bit here and point to my above statement that I should have qualified my stance to refer to onset-of-the-game speculation. I still don't like it in general on D1, and later in the game, I agree that it can actually be veryuseful. If there's one legitimate point among the three you've presented, it's this one. However, I still feel that Jack's attack was somewhat mischaracterizing of my stance. I realize that I am guilty of personal bias, but I still see a distinction between what I did and what I was afraid MBL was starting.-
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Pssst... this may or may not be why I decided that BM is pro-town afterall. Big, fast, fluffy wagon with shoddy/no reasoning, especially when it's the first serious wagon of the game generally means that it's all gas against a pro-town wagonee. I can pretty much guarantee that, if we closely inspect the players on this wagon later on, we'll find about two scumbags on it.Yosarian2 wrote:but I don't like how this BM wagon seems to be just gliding along on autopilot with very little reference to any specific thing he's actually done so far this game.-
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I agree that blindly following Glork -- regardless of what his alignment is -- is not generally a good thing. I experienced an unusually high amount of that in McDonald's Mafia, and I actuallyused Pink Princess' repeated Glork-support to catch her as scum in that game. I agree with that point. But I maintain that Guardian was joking, and that BM's attack on him was over-the-top, to a scummy degree. I wasn't trying to shut down the "following Glork is bad" notion. I was trying to shut down what I thought was becoming a distracting and possibly-pointless debate.-
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MBL: I don't blame you there, and in retrospect, I actually wish that I could have waited to see how people responded to your statement. I liked BBB's (I think?) response of "why do you find it odd" -- and at the time, I thought "oh boy, MBL is going to answer and start this up again." Now, I think it would have been more fruitful to see if anybody else tried to roll with the discussion; I think they would have been more likely to be scum than you.-
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....and with that post, BBB has finally hit the WIFOM nail on the head.
Unvote
Sometime tomorrow (I have the day off from work), I'm going to re-scour the thread and try to straighten out my suspicions. In the meantime, I look forward to hearing from AE and inHim.-
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The Albert wagon was entirely random/baseless. Those kinds of wagon can form against any player, and don't ever really amount to anything, usually. So I considered the early Albertwagon a nonfactor. BM's wagon was, as I stated earlier, the first large wagon that actually had a degree of seriousness to it. Though the Albertwagon was indeed at least as fast and large as the BMwagon, its very nature led me to believe that it wasn't nearly as significant.AutumnEvenings wrote:Editt: that post was horribly unclear. *sigh*
There was an early game wagon on Albert which reached 6 votes. Glork, you said nothing about it at all. However, in post 105 (after the Albert bandwagon had kind of faded away), you unvoted BM because of the speed which his wagon had grown, which, unless I'm wrong, you started in post 63 and it grew to 6 in 100, which is roughly the same amount of posts as the Albert wagon had (because of the rules and such). So...basically, why unvote BM because of a quick wagon, but place the 7th vote on the second wagon on a guy who had already had a speedy wagon himself?-
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AE, the odds that a random Page 1-2 bandwagon ever amounts to *ANYTHING* in a game this size are extraordinarily slim. I realize that it was large and fast, but I can't count on it for anything right now. It was a random bandwagon. It's possible that some newbscum jumped onto it about fourth or fifth or sixth hoping that it would magically turn into a mislynch -- but that is SO INCREDIBLY RARE that in my experience, hardly anybody even bothers trying anymore when they are scum. That's all there is to it, in my mind.
The players that I didn't mention I guess you could have slated as neutral, for some reason or another. Either they've done things that I like and things that I dislike (BM, MBL, Guardian), or they hadn't struck me in any way yet (HautBoy, HackerHuck). I suppose I could have put HH and/or HB on my "needs to post more" list, but I think that they had posted in the prior page, and so I didn't think of them as being lurkers/inactives.
Re: BM/Albert's behavior -- I was already voting for BM, had watched his wagon grow, and had classified his play as "patentedly moronic" by that point. If you look at my Post 93, you will see that I am already frustrated with what I clearly think was bad/stupid play. When taking that into account, BM's vote switch was just an extension of his terrible play. It certainly gave me no incentive to swtich off of him at the time, but it wasn't worth saying "Hey BM, you're stupid!" -- especially after the mod had just warned about personal attacks on the previous page (which is also why I said that BM should "do something about" his play in 93, rather than saying "this is a sign that you're terrible at being pro-town" or something like that).
Re: Your early-post points. I agree with MBL that he and Jack have posted more content than most. Jack is readily taking in-thread notes and giving suspicions of players, and MBL has been fairly active in some of the relevant discussions. I do, however, agree that there's too much inactivity and way too many off-topic/spammy posts and too many general theory discussions.
That said, I'm beginning my own re-read. Time to sift through the dirt and pick out some rich scumnuggets.-
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Okay. If there are scum on Albert's initial wagon, it's Shteven and/or ~N9V~. The BM wagon makes me believe that he is pro-town. If scums were on his wagon, I'd be looking at HautBoy, HungryJoe, and YogurtBandit. TCS might be scum on the wagon, but I'm not as willing to say that he should be on that list... yet. I'm keen on a BeanBagBoy lynch, too. And actually, the fact that YB went onto BM then off of BM only a short handful of posts later make me think that he probably was *NOT* trying to drive a mislynch on BM. So put HB, HJ, and BBB as my list of most-likely-scum on the BM-wagon, based solely on position on the wagon. Guardian is iffy, too, based on his overall play.
Albert's following me is still irksome. Still, he has passed off wagoning as his preferred method of pressure. I hate that kind of play with the searing passion of a thousand suns, but as I have no prior meta towards Albert, I may be forced to accept it. Still, Albert, a word of advice: Scumhunting and voting based on YOUR OWN personal suspicions is 90% of the time better than wagoning because somebody else is applying pressure and you want to see something happen. If you ahd suspected HJ for your own reasons, supplied those reasons, and voted him with me, I would have been fine with it. But the fact that you played follow-the-Glork without knowing what the Glork was doing is badbadbadbad.
I can understand TCS's Post 123... I went through a similar phase of paranoia.
Whoa, Albert's 130 doesn't make sense. He says he's looking for a Johhan wagon based on inactivity and OMGUS. I asked him why he didn't just vote for Johhan as well, and this response makes me cringe. Your vote on Johhan was random and on Page 1, so when you say "I did," inactivity/OMGUS wereNOTyour reasons for voting him. Do you mind explaining this comment, Albert?
Still, I don't like YB's vote for Albert in 136 due to a critique of general playstyle. Come to think of it, YB's voting history -- other than his timely unvote for BM -- has pretty much sucked.
I like HungryJoe's responses to me. Either he's savvier than I had expected or he's less likely to be scum than the others.
Shteven:WHY did you decide you wanted to keep your vote on Albert in Post 160?
Intereseting that HJ voices against Glork/Albert when A) Glork/Albert had voted him; and B) Jack had just expressed a Glork/Albert distancing "gut" feeling.
Massive FoS: Guardianfor Post 170. A heck of a lot has happened since your last post. Having nothing to comment on is often a lazyscum tell. "Hi, I'm actively lurking."
Vote: Guardianfor Post 176. Two more scumtells here: 1) A series of sweeping general comments which each go unsubstantiated; 2) A mass FoS for a seriously portrayed reason.
Beh. Still, Post 178 looks like Guardian is actually trying to do something. It also wipes out the "nothing to comment on" post he made earlier.Unvote Guardian, FoS: Guardian
Albert's switch to Glork in 184 still makes me want to throw rocks at him if he is town, and lynch him twice over if he is scum. It's like he reads the post before him, looks for a vote, and joins along in the fun. (Hyperbole, obviously, but you should get my point.)
MBL:what do you think of Guardian's Post 178?
Jack is obvprotown. Johhan's lurking like crap, but I would be wary to call him scum right now. I think I like post 208.
There is so much bad play in this game, it makes my head hurt. By the end of Page 10, I feel that YB, Guardian, and Albert are all either complete novices at this game, or they're playing really sloppy scum. I am certain that at least one of them is scum, but I honestly cannot decide who I want to lynch the most.
Is it just me, or does Post 262 look like all fluff/filler. Once again, he seems content just to let his vote sit there on Albert. Shtevenscum++; Albertscum--;
YB's attack on Jack in 288 is just terrible. A) Jack has not been lurking throughout D1; B) Jack has given some reasons for some of his suspicions -- see: Glork; C) Mentioning one's gut is not by any means automatically taboo -- I find nothing wrong with him saying "this post feels off." MBL has done the same thing, and TCS just stated that one of Shteven/Jack is scum and didn't explain why... I don't see you going after him for doing so. I would much more expect a pro-town player to ask Jack for reasons for what he does (much as I did earlier) and then critque those reasons (also what I did). Unsubstantiated claims, whether you like them or not, are a part of mafia. Forcing players to clarify their "gut" feelings, their seemingly-random statements, and their accusations and defenses -- that's how you find out what a player is really thinking and can discern their motives. You don't just say "you're scummy for taking notes in-thread and not explaining them in explicit detail." Like I said... bad, terrible vote. Mildly scummy, probably more indicative of newbiness, though.
...of course, two of my "Grr, these people are playing terribly" people -- Guardian and Albert -- jump onto Shteven right after I make a post about him and he makes a reply. This is getting ridiculous.
Yos's entry seems reasonably genuine, even if he is horribly misguided in his interpretation of my play.
YB is accused of distracting from a Guardianwagon. Immediately afterwards, Guardian openly defends YB. I almost feel like Guardian is deliberately trying to link himself closely to YB so that, if he's lynched, we'll go off in the wrong direction.
Yos hits on something in Post 364. Sounds like Guardian was (or still is) interested in making friends. Scumbags like to make friends. Man. GuardianScum probably doesn't look good for me, considering how adamantly I defended his joking earlier on. I'm still digging it, though.
Still don't like Shteven's top suspicions at all. Albert has become very "meh" to me on my re-read, but I am far from willing to commit to saying that he is scum. Battle Mage is very obviously pro-town.
Jack:What are your thoughts on Guardian at this point? (Oh, preview edit: I didn't realize that posts had been made since my last post, and Jack clearly said that he has doubts but doesn't remember why. Jack, I'd still like you to look back and *try* to explain your feelings as best as you can.)
AE: This may be unfair, because I just finished reading the game, but here's a shot--
MBL doesn't like at least one of YB/Guardian, probably doesn't like BT, likes Jack's play so far, probably thinks BM is pro-town, and he would like to see N9V do something in the game.
I'm tentatively okay with AE's vote for BBB. I remember getting mixed feelings about him. I'd like to see BBB contribute to some solid scumhunting.
Pro-Town: MBL, Jack, BM, Glork, probably Yos.
I'm going toVote: Shteven, FoS: Guardian, YB (to a lesser degree), and Albert.
There we go.-
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Nah, I'm okay with that statement. I'm sorry that you hate certainty in Mafia, but you know that it's pretty much how I roll.
I think that their scummy behavior overrides their status as newer players.-
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Fine. I should have said "fairly certain" or "somewhat sure." Happy?-
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BillyTwilight.
And it's not just the speed of the BM-wagon. He made a few posts that sounded very pro-town to me. I pointed out one of them, as indicated in my Post 116. And I don't think that three of you on his wagon are scum. I'm saying that the three of you are more likely to be wagoning scum than the other people who jumped BM. I'd say one, *possibly* two among those three that I listed are scum.-
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Hey Yos, you should put your vote somewhere useful. Like on a scumbag.-
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Guardian, you seem to be missing Yos's point.
You say that it is good for you to be unreadable to other people. You then go after TCS for deliberately acting scummy -- a play which, if he is town, serves to make him unreadable.
That's called hypocrisy.-
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....nevermind the fact that there's a fair (though probably not huge) chance I'd draw doc protection at least N1.Guardian wrote:One last thought - TCS, NK speculation being scummy or no, If I were the SK, I almost certainly would have axed Glork. Like it or not, that's just true. I am more afraid that people will become convinced I am a mafia member, which I am also not.
TCS, you can cut the BJ/IS act. Nobody's paying any attention to you. Pay normally, please.-
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I still find Guardian to be reasonably scummy, and TCS is annoying me beacuse he's spamming and deliberately behaving stupidly, when he complained about BM's behavior earlier.
TCS, in all seriousness, I'd like you to explain in extensive detail why you have chosen to behave this way. Failure to explain yourself or an insufficient/spammy explanation will result in deeper interrogation. I don't know why you've decided to do this, but you're certainly not proving any point; nor are you accomplishing anything other than pissing other people off. Stop it.-
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Pushing for claims "because [you] want to see what happens" is scummy and/or absolutely terrible play. Take your pick. Either way,.STOP THE MINDLESS BANDWAGONING MENTALITY OR PERISH IN FLAMES-
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I should also point out that I have made D1 policy lynches on terrible players before. In Normal 51, I pushed (and got) a policy lynch on a player who insisted on making two-word posts and not contributing. Though he turned out to be pro-town, we won the game eventually anyway. Even if you are pro-town, Albert, I will havezeroqualms about lynching you. The way I see it, regardless of your alignment, your presence is a detriment to the town. If you're scum, all the better. If not, I'll get over it rather quickly and move on with the game.
...that's not to say that Shteven is not off the hot seat, though. I'm still waiting to hear from him.-
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Glork Burdened by Proficiency
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Basically exactly what I'm doing. If somebody insists on behaving in a certain way, and their stubbornness gets to the point where their mere presence in a game -- regardless of whether they are pro-town or not -- then the town lynches them to show that they are serious about their disapproval, and that such behavior will not be tolerated in the future.
The concept of "Lynch All Liars" is a metagame policy which is designed to discourage pro-town players from lying -- and it really does work. Similarly, bandwagon players that you don't particularly suspect for the sake of forcing a claim because you feel like it is a horribly detrimental attitude which Albert has adopted. It's harmful to the town, and any player who insists on being a burden on the town should be disposed of.-
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