New York 180 (Endgame)

[Ellie]

VOTE: Nobody Special

Reads please.

[Ellie]

Doctors don't get told if their protection was successful. They don't get told anything.

Did this used to be the case in earlier Mafia games?

Never, as far as I recall.

NS, what are your reads?

[Ellie]

As for you, this makes you my strongest scumread, followed by a lean scumread on NJ. I'm going to ISO you and NJ and try to figure it all out. What is your read of NJ?

Asked to post reads to help people townread him, quickhammers instead. That was scummier than the quickhammer itself. I don't think he's on pisskop's team though.

[Ellie]

Could it have been a Freudian slip? Imagine this: At night, a player is reading the thread looking for who to nk. That player finds some profoundly awesome piece of evidence that somehow slipped under everyone's radar. The next day, when the person who was nk'd was revealed to be something awesome (like Boon's doctor PR), everyone is kinda getting ready to move on, but the player who found the evidence gets a little egotistical. They want people to realize how cool they are for discovering this awesome, barely noticeable piece of evidence, so they make the error of pointing it out. It's as if they were to say, "Man that NK was a great job on the scum team, they must be pretty damn smart! I bet they're awesome players!" And then just sits there and smiles as they stroke their own ego.

I don't actually think that's the case, but I thought it interesting enough to bring up.

So this isn't something you actually believe?

[Ellie]

vikingfan needs to die. The rest can be discussed tomorrow.

What do you think of TSO and Aeronaut and why do you think it?

[Ellie]

NakedJogger, if you are town and hammered for town reasons, simply explain your thought process so we can see how town it was. It's simple.

[Ellie]

@Ellie That would spare me quite a lot of enjoyment. Also, don't defend stupidity; People who call me scum have to come up with reasons to do so before I have to do anything, not the other way around. And I believe I've already explained it to none other than elusive who has asked me that same question twice ever since despite.

The reason you needed to hammer is because enough people thought you were scummy to have a good chance of lynching you. That was before the hammer. Then rather than, say, explain your reads, you acted in an extremely survivalistic manner. It is not surprising people think you are scummy.

[Ellie]

No, I brought it up because it really interests me.

Why does it interest you?

I just struggle to think ABR is scum when he does things like this.

I think people probably can't fake that level of crazy.

So you just think he's general anti-town? And what about my post where I asked you questions from things I saw in your ISO? Why won't you address them?

No, hence my use of the word scummy. I'm still catching up - did you ask me about something other than my read on elusive and my statement that I would hammer vikingfan?

[Ellie]

elusive and MathBlade are very, very different people with unique writing styles and separate personalities. It shouldn't be too hard to tell them apart, guys.

[Ellie]

vikingfan needs to die. The rest can be discussed tomorrow.

What do you think of TSO and Aeronaut and why do you think it?

TSO is supremely frustrated, like I am, and therefore most-probably town.

Aeronaut, no read, because he hasn't left an impression on me yet.

Yeah maybe I should try this from the other direction. What do you think of elusive, goodmorning and dragonspawn?

[Ellie]

Okay, I was hoping for some more creative reasons for suspecting me Ozgin. As stated many times already, I know elusive

very

well. She is town. If you think my read on her is too confident for d1 or d2, then you don't understand how her mind works. This is simply not how she plays as scum.

[Ellie]

2) But is it really crazy to be so sure of something that you'd bet your life on it? Granted, it's not your real life, but there are some things I'd be willing to bet my life on (e.g. I bet my life that I can go outside and take a picture of a handful of snow and post it because winter sucks on the east coast).

Do you have any beliefs about this game that you would bet your game life on? I was talking about some other behavior from ABR that appears to stretch the boundaries of sanity.

[Ellie]

The concept of a Freudian slip that isn't just a linguistics error. I'm just utterly fascinated by people who accidentally show their true intentions without even realizing it. Not saying that's what she did, but recognizing the possibility is just interesting to me personally. However, Kitz pretty much debunked my Freudian slip theory.

That was me not elusive.

[Ellie]

Fair enough, I can't necessarily argue with you if you claim you know her meta very well and she has confirmed that. But what about your posts saying things like "It's impossible to lynch her" etc., you almost hinted at her being invincible. Why is that?

Well, elusive will not be lynched while I am alive. That is true. It would simply be too difficult to accomplish short of a cop guilty. I can't say I had a really good reason for posting that she wouldn't be lynched after me, though I also think that is true -- my town flip would simply prove that my reads are genuine. Not to mention, at that point both MathBlade and Grib were in the game, and I'm sure they would have worked hard to stop her lynch as well.

[Ellie]

Poor choice - I was tied for votes with vikingfan, you totally could have lynched me ABR. Don't give up so easily!

[Ellie]

Take it from me, a surprisingly small amount of the new pages are actually worth reading.

[Ellie]

Yes, two people knowing each other well and defending each other as town is extremely scummy. Couldn't possibly happen between two scum. Lynch lynch lynch.

[Ellie]

Vikingfan slipped when he said the mod told him a doctor saved him.

The vf ship is here and ready to take your tickets. Let's stop talking about doing this and do this.

You may be right. I'm going to keep trying though.

[Ellie]

May be right about the ship happening.

[Ellie]

I think people probably can't fake that level of crazy.

....
...Did you vote me after I called you scum and unvote me the moment I wrote this? O_O

[Ellie]

Weird, I've been feeling more alive every day.

The loud modifier was something Wake came up with. It would have flipped if it were a modifier: As the wiki article ika quoted earlier states, normal doctors can use this mechanic without any modifiers.

[Ellie]

Anything listed in the variations of doctor from the Wiki page is possible, this is inclusing but not limited to a target being told of being healed.

GM has already quoted it but I will quote it myself that its possible:

While this is highly frowned upon at mafiascum.net, some moderators will tell players that they were saved from death via a form of protection (i.e. Doctors). Some moderators will even announce who was saved from death publicly at the beginning of the next Day.

I will personally not answer any direct questions about what can be or can not exist. If its listed in as a possible variation, it may exist

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Doctor

^^

[Ellie]

Ellie is a serial killer who killed boons.

In this scenario, who did scum shoot?

[Ellie]

NakedJogger, your reply to my question gave me warm fuzzy feelings but I worry that may have been your goal.

[Ellie]

.................

[Ellie]

So uh.
I have pretty compelling evidence against what ABR just said.

Let me know whether I need to share it or if we can just lynch him for telling an obvious lie.

[Ellie]

VOTE: abr

[Ellie]

I feel like ABR just gave up on playing well at some point and decided to just troll from then on.

[Ellie]

He said he investigated me and got a guilty.

[Ellie]

goodmorning catch up fast and tell me whether I need to explain why ABR is lying please

[Ellie]

ABR, on a scale of "not at all" to "lol this was all a gambit jk," how willing are you to be lynched to prove vf & I are mafia?

[Ellie]

Please confirm, gambit or not a gambit?

[Ellie]

It might be, VF. Thinking it over.

[Ellie]

I don't even know what I think anymore

That you were really unlucky to be put on a team with ABR?

[Ellie]

when I said "let me know" I meant people with an ounce of town credibility

[Ellie]

Ellie, are you scum?

no

[Ellie]

elusive, are you scum?

[Ellie]

Scum-ABR or cop-ABR is a false dichotomy.

[Ellie]

I'm the town Deputy. Basically a backup cop. If the cop dies, I become the new cop. According to ika, this does not mean there has to be a cop, but I think it definitely suggests that it would be really dumb to lynch VF today.

My post about hammering VF was tongue-in-cheek, and also a crumb: From a certain POV, it would have been better for town if I got the cop role early. So his lynch would not have been horrible. It was nevertheless

better

to lynch scum, so I've spent my time trying to make that happen.

[Ellie]

Tbh it probably makes the most sense to let the scum decide which of ABR and VF is the real cop.

[Ellie]

It's ... not really possible ABR is a cop, because he's not even really

pretending

to be a cop.

[Ellie]

You're not the cop. If you are gambiting town, my role is evidence that VF is town and you should adjust accordingly.

[Ellie]

You're not the cop. If you are gambiting town, my role is evidence that VF is town and you should adjust accordingly.

It's evidence that you're my backup you mean.

I'll take reasons why my vote is still on you for $400, Alex.

[Ellie]

You're not the cop. If you are gambiting town, my role is evidence that VF is town and you should adjust accordingly.

How does it prove which one of ABR or VF is telling the truth?

It doesn't, but ABR's play also makes zero sense as cop, and there was a clear tone of humor and trolling in his posts around when he claimed. He's not the cop.

[Ellie]

ABR is town because reading his past games taught you the value of tunneling. Good to know, Math.

[Ellie]

I'm not an orange, but a good friend of mine is.

[Ellie]

Unfortunately he does do that as the cop...:/ It helps to try to deceive scum. However it also sometimes deceives town. It's a bit of a bleh. :/

EBWOP: It's that I learned a lot about his meta from them. Not that I learned the value of tunnelling from that.

So what do you look for in ABR's scum game?

[Ellie]

@NS: Why? Also I asked you for reads on some other players this morning.

[Ellie]

@NS: Why? Also I asked you for reads on some other players this morning.

Because you claimed for nothing? Now if the scum kill me tonight, they can just kill you tomorrow night, and none of our investigations will have worked. You really didn't think this through.

I thought it through a lot. All week, and especially this morning. There are a few big problems with the game state:

1) Regardless of your alignment, your behavior and fake claims (including the fake guilty on me) are creating too much Mist. The town is getting lost and muddled in that mist. That is a very, very serious threat to the town win condition. My claim provides clarity, and clarity is always more valuable than a cop.

2) With the pressure on me from you and others, there is a very real concern that I'll be shot by a town vig, or by an SK who thinks I'm scum, or scum who thinks I'm SK, or one multiball faction who thinks I'm another multiball faction. That means any strategy that requires me to stay alive another 1-2 days to be useful should probably be reconsidered.

[Ellie]

Ellie...did you claim deputy because you thought I was a VT fakeclaiming cop -because I thought vf wasn't a cop- but by you claiming deputy, it would prove that there's a cop, therefore I'd be forced to change my views given no other cop counterclaims, and admit that everything was a gambit? Because...I'm the cop, not vf.

If so, you are the most ironic cop in the history of mafia.

[Ellie]

I don't believe you are a cop, ABR. Sorry. If you are a cop, okay, you played really terribly and now I don't believe you. That's the reality of the situation, one way or another.

[Ellie]

Anyway, if I'm town, how do your scum reads change?

[Ellie]

I don't believe you are a cop, ABR. Sorry. If you are a cop, okay, you played really terribly and now I don't believe you. That's the reality of the situation, one way or another.

You're not the deputy, are you? Who's the one lying here, really?

What does this mean?

Why GM or Kitz?

[Ellie]

SilverWolf, I have seen very passionate and convincing scum weasel their way out of a sure lynch and get townies killed. Is there anything else that belies you to believe that?

Titus, right?

[Ellie]

You're not the deputy, are you? Who's the one lying here, really?

No really. What does this mean?

[Ellie]

Hang on ABR. Did you really think you were a tracker D1?

[Ellie]

Ellie, even if you're 100% convinced of ABR being scum, what are your thoughts on vf's lazy, half-assed defending of himself? He's basically letting you fight for him. Don't you think his lack of conviction is a little strange? ABR is basically claiming to be exactly what vf says his slot is, and he's barely even putting up his dukes. Is that not odd?

It would hardly be the first time town was utterly incapable of making a basic effort to defend themselves.

[Ellie]

You knew you were a cop?

[Ellie]

Once someone has unequivocally claimed, you pretend like they are what they are in hopes that the NKs will clear things up. The way you're trying to throw some shade on viking's claim is very anti-town.

You pretend to believe that they are what they say they are*

Please explain these posts.

[Ellie]

Okay, I'll stop defending vikingfan. With a counterclaim on the table, it makes sense to lynch him or ABR today, and it doesn't really matter

that

much which we choose.

[Ellie]

No, I want some time to reevaluate before maybe dying.

[Ellie]

Pretending VF is scum and seeing how that impacts my reads.

peeks into thread

sees Cop claim

screams

Some of you have fucking long ISOs that are 50% nonsense. I have a few townreads but a ton of nulls.

VOTE: Jared

Sheeping a PR.

Based on what I know about Grib, pretty sure this isn't how he would react to his partner claiming cop. "Sheeping [my partner]." He would not associate himself with VF so quickly.

[Ellie]

That was what happens when you put people at L-1.