NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Hi, everyone. It's a bit late for me, but I'll try to have something useful tomorrow.
Nice to see so many names I know!"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Hey, Glork! And thank goodness, no.In post 461, Glork wrote:Bookitty hi! Are you scum?
I think vote count analyses are mostly useful later in the game. However, they are great tools for town because they are based on facts, not theory. While you and I might look at the same VCA and derive different conclusions, we're going to have the same facts. So while I don't agree with LML's vote on Untrod Tripod (try saying that fast, yikes) I don't think LML is scummy for having provided information, arriving at some conclusions and placing a vote based on those conclusions.
@PetroleumJelly: In a game this size with this many players, wouldn't it make more sense NOT to put in the effort to do that analysis if LML was scum? I think it would be pretty easy to blend in with the pack and not make too many waves. VCA data is verifiable by town and can be used throughout the game to catch scum, though I think it's really not that useful until later. Why would scum make an effort to tell the truth to town when they could generally just coast? This line of argument seems fabricated and could be used against anyone, town or scum, who put in effort to provide data. To paraphrase chamber's tagline, it's as if you're saying "content is scummy."
UNVOTE:
VOTE: PetroleumJelly"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I checked the activity level on Seol. He made a grand total of four posts during his tenure in the game. I have no idea why he replaced out, but if I had to guess based on his posts, I would guess that he found the pace of the game too fast and overwhelming.Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
Why are you ignoring the obvious link to his alignment? If he's town, he gets to scumhunt people, he gets to interact freely with people that he used to know, all sorts of fun stuff. If he's scum, everything he does is under pressure and he has to fake doing something that he hasn't done in a long while.In post 460, Zorblag wrote:As far as the Seol vote goes, I didn't notice him the last time I looked through the thread because he hadn't done anything. That's due to lack of attention on my part. If it weren't for the replacement I'd agree that it's a more and more reasonable place to put a vote, but right now I'm tentatively chalking it up to an unimpressive start due to lack of interest in the game.
Seol and I know each other, so he OMGUSes me in the first post but doesn't say anything? I push him relentlessly as scum and he doesn't say anything? He just continues making an easy case on mafiaSSK instead of engaging with the game. That's Seolscum, no doubt.
@UntrodTripod:I think I said it before, but to me VCAs are only useful after you've seen a few flips. I don't agree with LML's way of using them, but I do think that they can be really useful to town later on.
I'll give LML a closer look, but I don't think he's scummy for the VCA.
@chamber:I don't know what it refers to, but if you want to explain, I'd love to hear it. It's not a theory I've heard before"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I don't catch your meaning.In post 470, Untrod Tripod wrote:reading is tech, boo
I've been reading the game since the beginning, but I didn't actually think I would get the chance to replace in. So I didn't make detailed notes. Certainly I didn't do ISOs and multiple player drill-downs for a game I wasn't even in :p
What is it you think I've missed?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Oh, yeah.
I have mad respect and love for a lot of the people on the playerlist and I'm now having to put that aside to try to find scum. I'm voting for PJ because I think his reasoning for voting LML looks manufactured and would logically lead to reduced contributions along the same line.
That doesn't clear LML, but it does make me suspicious of PJ, given his minimal approach to contributing to the game so far."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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@SaveTheDragonsWhat did you think of LML's justification for taking his vote off you and putting it on UntrodTripod? Do you think that jumping from wagon to wagon is more scummy or not scummy?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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No, you're not saying content is scummy? No, you don't think that it would make more sense to fly under the radar? No to both? Scum coasting on minimal content was a pretty common thing the last time I was playing regularly and I haven't seen much to dissuade me of this yet.In post 489, petroleumjelly wrote:Other stuff.
1.)
No.In post 466, Bookitty wrote:@PetroleumJelly: In a game this size with this many players, wouldn't it make more sense NOT to put in the effort to do that analysis if LML was scum? I think it would be pretty easy to blend in with the pack and not make too many waves. VCA data is verifiable by town and can be used throughout the game to catch scum, though I think it's really not that useful until later. Why would scum make an effort to tell the truth to town when they could generally just coast? This line of argument seems fabricated and could be used against anyone, town or scum, who put in effort to provide data. To paraphrase chamber's tagline, it's as if you're saying "content is scummy."
At the point I posted that, you had posted eight times. Some of your posts were lists of questions; others were theory discussion regarding the value of bandwagoning and the question of weak players vs. stronger players. You asked Tigris some questions; what did you hope to derive from the answers? Did Tigris's answers sway you to the view that she was town or that she was scum?In post 489, petroleumjelly wrote:Follow-up: do you think my play has been coasting? Do you think I have been making any waves? What makes you say I have "given a minimal approach to contributions to the game so far"?
I liked your move from MafiaSSK to LML because LML is far higher on my scumlist than MafiaSSK; however, I didn't like the timing and it seemed really suspicious since you said you had been "giving him a wide berth" and then suddenly you came up with all the reasons why your vote was totally and completely justified at the point you made it, i.e., right after he put up his VCA (good) and then exhibited craplogic in his conclusions (bad).
What do you think your main contributions have been so far? What do you feel you've learned from your questioning? Do you still think MafiaSSK is scum? Is it likely he is scum with LML?
Reading the game for the second and third time, I'm seeing a lot of heat and smoke from your posts, but I just don't see a lot of light."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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LML is a null-leaning-scum read for me. The scum part is:In post 507, Sotty7 wrote:Is LML a town read for you at this point? I'm getting the real feel of having your cake and eating it too so I would like you to clarify your opinion on him.
He pulls his vote off STD and then votes UT for the EXACT SAME thing. His VCA actually shows that. I realize he's only got one vote, but why switch it at the point he does and then blame it on his VCA? That's not reading honest to me. STD ducked my question on that, but I would be interested to know how STD sees that move. To me, it was the scummiest thing LML did all game and it made me look hard at STD as a result.
The town part is:
I've read the game several times over the last few days. I still don't have it down, but I guess that's normal for a large game. But I notice that LML is the target of choice for a lot of people with not a lot of reasoning. I hadn't thought about it the way Glork did, but the truth is that Glork is a better scumhunter than I am. (I'm sure those who have played with me before will back me up on this.) I just gave my reason for thinking he might be scum; so far as I recall, I'm the only one who noted that exact thing. (I could be wrong on that, but I don't remember reading anyone on LML's wagon and saying, AHA, you think what *I* think.) The reasons given aren't as good as that one in my eyes, which makes me think that some of the people on LML's wagon are scum without real motivation except finding a convenient wagon. Which, in turn, makes me think that LML might be town after all."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Your explanations actually make a lot of sense to me. However, the Tigris explanation and your results are nowhere in the thread that I saw. If it's valuable information, shouldn't you share your findings with town? Do you intend to make a similar investigation of the person who replaced into her slot?In post 514, petroleumjelly wrote:BooKitty:Please explain what you mean when you say you are seeing a "lot of heat and smoke" from my posts.
The "Socratic dialogue" with VitaminR reads completely like smoke and mirrors. Reread it for yourself and I think you'll see exactly why.
I ask a lot of questions as part of my playstyle too. And no, you don't need to worry about being condescending, I don't have a huge ego about my scumhunting prowess. I replaced into a game you modded back in the Dark Ages, and my scumhunting abilities haven't changed much since then. But when I do try to make an assessment of someone's alignment (as you say you are doing) I share the results of my findings with town. That way there's this transparency that makes it easier for other people to understand my motivations.
I don't like you saying that you were giving LML a wide berth and then suddenly springing your assessment on everyone.Do you feel that the scumtell I mentioned before is the one you were picking up on?It wasn't really clear to me from the wording of your post.
I REALLY want an answer to the bolded part, please.
Hi! Yeah, I replaced in late on a Friday night and I WILL do it but I've been really busy and I've been posting in between other things that have to get done. I have reread the thread on the go on my tablet; one of those posts takes a long time actually sitting in front of the computer with multiple windows open, especially in a game this size with so many people to consider in ISO and drill-down and all that stuff.In post 517, undo wrote: Also, hey Bookitty! Good to see you here. I can’t help but notice your entrance in the game was rather inconspicuous, though, without the customary après-reread analysis wallpost. I’d really like to hear your reads on people.
I just got here. Do you truly expect someone who replaced in late on Friday night to have had time to do what you suggest?In post 519, Sotty7 wrote:If you truly believe that someone on LML is opportunistic scum why am I seeing no content on Green Crayons or Yos? It's just a laser beam focus on PJ despite having read the game several times according to you. Doesn't add up."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Just a quick post to let you know I am fighting off the flu. I'm going to make an effort to make a response later today to the questions asked of me.
Sorry for the delay in responding."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Rather than try to pick out all the questions and answer them individually, I’m going to try to sum up things and then take questions if I missed them. I’m kind of doped up on pain meds, so this may be rambling. I’ll apologise for that upfront.
Yes, I’m nervous. I haven’t played for several years, I’m rusty and I am playing with people whose opinions I value. It’s an unnerving combination. I don’t want to make a fool of myself.
While I did read the game from the start (or nearly so) for entertainment, I had the same enforced week-long hiatus everyone else did. I didn’t reread it immediately upon returning because I was busy with other things and I knew there was a line already formed for replacements; I didn’t expect I would get in. There are 22 people in this game; I do not believe I’ve ever been in a game that large. I’m not alone in finding this game hard to figure out and hard to remember.
Okay, on to things that actually matter to someone besides me:
LML comes into the game with that stupid random vote thing. He says Glork is a town read (which Glork is for me too, but I took longer to get there), attacks Sotty7 for avoiding the two main wagons on Tigris and on MafiaSSK to vote Seol (me, now). It’s a weak attack, though, I don’t know if he means it. (I have no meta on LML that I recall.)
I don’t even understand the Glork wagon except that it’s tradition so I’m not going to try to analyze that.
Now, about those MafiaSSK and Tigris wagons, here’s where I start looking at PJ like I think he might have cooties. Tigris has a healthy bandwagon on her for saying she likes to be nonconformist (her wagon appears to be based on nothing more than that) and MafiaSSK tells her so. It’s stupid to me, but it’s not scummy of MafiaSSK that I can see. Tigris responds with this theory post and Chamber says, OMG I found scum! “Her words weren’t actually meaningfully responding to the context of the question.”
Okay, Post 52 is the first one that I actually saw from PJ. I am not going to say that it’s his first post but it’s the first one I noticed at all. I got really weird vibes from this: “Not happy asking these questions, as these are the kind of questions I grind newbies with just to get a better sense of how they play. But given that I have not played with Tigris, I'll give myself a pass.”
He’s already excusing himself for asking questions when no one has said it was scummy yet. That’s… weird to me. It doesn’t seem honest.
Okay, giant wall of questions for Tigris that seem vaguely to incriminate her. PJ says to me later he’s just doing it to get a sense of her playstyle. The first question might be that; the rest look really not. PJ then votes MafiaSSK for questioning Tigris and defending bandwagons. Wait… what?
So now I’m suspicious of PJ. And it’s not helped by people jumping on the MafiaSSK wagon (including Seol, so I’m not overlooking that).
We had Glork, MafiaSSK, Mr. Buddy Lee (and I have been confusing him with LML, I see that now, but I don’t think it matters given the very limited amount of posting I remember from MBL), Save the Dragons and Untrod Tripod on Tigris. I know LML is voting Tigris from RVS. He doesn’t say anything about it for a while though.
Then you have PJ, Seol, Porochaz and Green Crayons with votes on MafiaSSK and LML putting in the FoS.
PJ comes back in post 107 to explain his vote on MafiaSSK. He says this is an “over-the-top assertion”: (MafiaSSK to Tigris)” Because bandwagons are guaranteed information especially at high vote counts. You choosing to go after someone different has in fact more potential to gain less information...” More questions that look like scumhunting but are directed at what look to be random targets. The MafiaSSK question I sort of understand. Why does PJ care what MrBuddyLee thinks of Sotty7?
Looking at this now, I guess I can sort of see the “Socratic dialogue” thing. To me, though, that begs the question, why does he want to educate VitaminR? Does PJ think VR is scum? Town? It’s like he’s setting up all these different angles and he can just go to whichever one. His only stated suspicion is on MafiaSSK and I think it’s trumped up. I remember thinking it was weird on a first read and I still do.
At this point VitaminR was voting LML. I understand his reasoning here, though I think the people actually voting MafiaSSK were more odd. Untrod Tripod called VitaminR scum for this but he’s not voting for VitaminR so I don’t know if it’s rhetoric or if UT means it.
And not to leave out, a wagon is building on Seol. I think it’s because of that vote on MafiaSSK; anyway, Sotty7, Shanba and Cogito Ergo Sum are on my wagon. SavetheDragons votes for me too (well, Seol), which makes perfect sense if you look back to him voting Tigris and taking that side on the MafiaSSK debate. Seol’s on the other side and he doesn’t really justify his vote.
VitaminR starts attracting some votes, I don’t really get why. MafiaSSK expresses that he’s fine with the wagon on him, which I think is townie. Yosarian2 awards towncred to both GreenCrayons and chamber for their outstanding snarkiness. Meanwhile, LML is going after StD and dropping his … I don’t know why he was voting Tigris if not just laziness from RVS. I don’t think he ever indicated he thought she was scum up til this point in the game. But most of his post is to Albert, not StD. So I don’t get that either.
I’m going to continue this but it’s so huge that I just wanna post it now and go on to the next part. I realize it’s sort of unfocused but at the moment so am I and I just didn’t want to wait until I was all better to do what I promised I was going to do.
If I mixed up any facts, honestly, I'm not surprised. I think everything I said was right, but please feel free to correct me (or call me scummy or whatever) if I have anything wrong."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Is it okay if I continue this? It's really helpful to me in remembering all my reasons for why I thought things, so I'm going to do it anyway. But if you want me not to post these ungodly long blocks of text, I can stop whenever. I'm getting to the important stuff now, I think."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Okay, Post 123 from Shanba makes me feel really good about Shanba. I never got the logic for Tigris’s wagon, but I never got the logic for MafiaSSK’s wagon either. It’s like everyone else is seeing as:
MafiaSSK is right! OMG the scumminess of not bandwagoning!
No, Tigris is right! Individuality is great!
And neither one of these is right to me. Bandwagoning is just bandwagoning, it’s null. Picking out someone else is also okay, ESPECIALLY when she did it, during RVS. Shanba calls out Glork. I don’t agree with Shanba’s suspicions of Yos, because I agreed with Yos. I thought that both bandwagons were dumb and it seemed like such a false dichotomy.
MafiaSSK’s Post 107 is mostly town to me. He’s answering that question from PJ that I commented on earlier. MafiaSSK comments that his vote on Tigris was really still in the RVS stage (and I agree, it really was). I can sort of see the logic in going after VitaminR for bravery that must be born out of scum knowledge, but I’ve seen the same sort of bravery from town. I think Yos’s case is weak and MafiaSSK is agreeing with it; I don’t think it’s scummy though. What’s interesting here is that MafiaSSK is attacking VitaminR for defending him for weak reasons. This is a strong towntell for SSK in my eyes. I think scum would skate on the good vibes.
CTD votes Chamber for that same thing I mentioned in my last post about “Hai guise I found the scumz!” about Tigris. I’m still keeping track of the dichotomy, and that puts CTD on the Tigris side. So it’s like this now:
Glork, SSK, Buddy Lee, UT, and Chamber on the Tigris wagon either with votes, scum accusations or by extension. You also have to add in Sotty7, Shanba and CES as on this side of the equation because they’re voting Seol for voting MafiaSSK. (I think I’m right about this.)
PJ. Seol, Porochaz, Green Crayons, StD, LML and CTD on the MafiaSSK wagon in the same way. I know not all of them are voting him, but there’s the same justification as in the last bit.
Okay, now CTD is voting MafiaSSK. I know Seol was doing that, but I don’t agree with it!
Chamber looks bad for Post 130. It’s like he’s about to approach an actual position on Tigris… omg, no, he’s turned around and is running off the field of play! I don’t have the meta read nor the firm conviction that he’s scum that CES and CTD do at this point though.
I agree with Sotty7 in Post 144. Not so much with StD in Post 150; this I really didn’t like:
“In my opinion, I felt that thatwhile erroneous, the jumps onto Tigris were either justified by a pro-town motivation to tack onto someone who seemed suspicious, or did not give enough information for me to really read.”
Wait, did we see a Tigris flip? I don’t remember that. When did that happen?
MafiaSSK says that we can’t just dismiss the Glork wagon. O RLY? Ha, watch me! He makes a point about CES tunneling on Seol (I think that was explained later as “Seol is my RL buddy and I know he would react to me voting him if he were town” or something approaching that) and still pointing out that chamber’s alignment is obvious (obvscum, from context).
PJ goes after MafiaSSK for his rhetorical style. Asks UT about his preferences in what he likes to play.
Oh, someone asked me if I hated playing scum (I don’t remember who and my head is too fuzzy to go looking through the thread for it) – the answer is yeah, I don’t like playing scum. I prefer doing long analysis thingies and trying to pick out connections. It’s mostly something I’m better at after a few flips, though.
Wow, Seol says something I agree with! Though I think he’s wrong in the application: “I don't think this game has any "easy targets".” I like Seol’s questioning of MafiaSSK but I just still think SSK is town.
DrippingGoofball is playing to her town meta (IMO). Also, hi, DG!
Glork says something that I so agree with: “I'd like PJ to branch out and actually give scum/town opinions on people not named MafiaSSK. While I'm fine with the asking-questions thing (in part because it's consistent with what I'd expect him to do, and in part because I've behaved similarly this far), I'm anxious for follow-up.” I feel like PJ hasn’t given ANY opinions on what he’s derived from his questions.
MafiaSSK responds to PJ’s argument that SSK is confused/lying about the reason behind his vote. Then it gets into a huge discussion on the part of SSK about the incredible and delightful value of bandwagoning in RVS and how it delivers delicious fruit that is only healthy and good for town and never has that scummy aftertaste. Yum!
I do like SSK’s point about everything mattering and there not being a bright line where posting suddenly has meaning and merit.
Okay, I have to go for a little. I’ll have more tonight. Sorry this is so ungodly long but it’s just a lot of content to go through and to explain what were essentially ephemeral observations that I wish to god I had written down at the time instead of now."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Okay, I'm back. I think this is a serious question rather than rhetorical (sorry, my rhetoric meter is broken at the moment).In post 564, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
That's not what he's excusing himself for.In post 560, Bookitty wrote:He’s already excusing himself for asking questions when no one has said it was scummy yet. That’s… weird to me. It doesn’t seem honest.
Why does he need to think either? And your predecessor spent most of his time going after MafiaSSK for most of the same reasons as PJ, so that seems like a really weird opinion for you to have as town.In post 560, Bookitty wrote:Looking at this now, I guess I can sort of see the “Socratic dialogue” thing. To me, though, that begs the question, why does he want to educate VitaminR? Does PJ think VR is scum? Town? It’s like he’s setting up all these different angles and he can just go to whichever one. His only stated suspicion is on MafiaSSK and I think it’s trumped up. I remember thinking it was weird on a first read and I still do.
I'm not my predecessor. I don't know what he thought or why he thought it. If I did, I would tell you, but I have what you have, which is not a lot to go on. So asking me why Seol did this or that is pointless. Not a clue.
And I don't question people unless I have some sort of lean on them, and it's usually a scumlean. I was a philosophy major (yeah, point and laugh all you want) and I know the purpose of Socratic dialogues in the teaching environment. We're in the Mafia environment. What's the point of engaging in that sort of educational exercise just to reach some shared truth in this game? You have to have an angle, don't you, or a point you're trying to figure out about the other person? Otherwise why bother with it in THIS environment?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Okay. You were on that bandwagon yourself. I may be getting bogged down in semantics, but the sentence you wrote would be properly punctuated thusly:In post 567, Save The Dragons wrote:
I believe the use of the term erroneous here is an opinion. It may not be clear since I used terms like "I felt" and "In my opinion", but in my opinion, I feel like that implies an opinion.In post 566, Bookitty wrote: I agree with Sotty7 in Post 144. Not so much with StD in Post 150; this I really didn’t like:
“In my opinion, I felt that thatwhile erroneous, the jumps onto Tigris were either justified by a pro-town motivation to tack onto someone who seemed suspicious, or did not give enough information for me to really read.”
Wait, did we see a Tigris flip? I don’t remember that. When did that happen?
In my opinion, I felt that, while erroneous, the jumps onto Tigris were either justified... etc.
The sentence makes sense without the clause "while erroneous" so it's not clear that this part is in your opinion.
Why do you think the jumps on Tigris were erroneous, then?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Okay, back to my game analysis. I'm not really sure where I was (I'm on a different computer). MafiaSSK posts about the Seol-CES love-hate relationship and draws a link between CES and CTD; I'm not seeing it. I do have a question:
@CrashTextDummie: Hey, when you said chamber's alignment was obvious, were you saying he was obvscum or obvtown? I read it as obvscum but chamber thinks you were awarding valuable towncred.
Sotty7 actually reiterates something I thought in Post 207. I feel like Green Crayons and Sotty7 are really on the same page but ascribing different importance to the words used. I'm guilty of this myself so I can only say that exchange sounds genuine. Yeah, I feel like Yosarian2 is town. (I may be repeating myself). I don't agree about VitaminR but I still think that post is "sacred" in that it makes me think Yos is town.
STD says that he disagrees with most of what MafiaSSK says but he still thinks he's legit. I agree with this (though that townread is less secure on this intensive reread, it's still there). We're still in the false dichotomy thing though, and I just hate it.
ABR's quoting of BB is so LOL. So is Glork's wat response
In Post 244, PJ is still pushing on VitaminR for a question that (I'm not looking it up, but I can find it if someone needs it) by his own accounting wouldn't make VR any friends in the game. I don't know why he wants to know who the weak players are in VR's opinion. He's also soft-defending his pursuit of SSK by saying it's similar to VR's "semi-serious" vote on DGB in the first two pages. He attacks Glork for framing the debate about MafiaSSK as a theory debate (which I think it REALLY was) and basically tells Glork that PJ's reads are none of his (or anyone's) business. That's so not town to me. Also doesn't get the ABR quote. (NOT A SCUMTELL though. Just funny.)
I like Undo's Post 246.
Shanba says he doesn't know what the Seol wagon was for. I think it was for that vote on Tigris, but I am not sure of this.
I don't know why in Post 257 Yos puts chamber as town. At a guess, meta? I agree Green Crayons and Glork feel town to me.
Okay, I HATE this: Post 279 VitaminR makes some really good points about LML and instead of saying anything relevant back, he says: "To be completely fair again, a LOT of people went alone with two weak wagons. Hell, some of the people you've quite ignored have actually BEEN on 3 or 4 wagons thus far. Why have they earned a pass from you?" To me that's deflection. That's scummy and I didn't notice it before or I forgot it. VitaminR and LML go back and forth and VitaminR wins that.
Meh, STD gets towncred from me for Post 285. This is irritating.
Despite my use of pain meds, I still have a headache that would kill a horse. I will pick this up tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be more coherent and less drugged up."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I’m feeling much better today. Hi ABR, DGB and Shanba! <3
I sat down to start on my PBPA again (with grim determination) and I suddenly realized something. Short of a scum lynch, my lynch is probably the best single information lynch for the town. I’ve interacted with just about everyone. After my flip you can go back and read everything I posted with certain knowledge of my alignment.
We need a lynch now, in my opinion. The pace of the game is slowing down and people are starting to have Day 1 fatigue. I think mine is the most likely wagon at the moment (I haven’t seen a vote count recently, but at a guess that’s right) and I think you need to push it to its conclusion.
After my lynch, though, I would ask that you actually look at the people I pointed to and reexamine their postings carefully. Think about why PJ would be so reluctant to give any information to town and would react so negatively to suggestions that he should. Look at the votes on my wagon and the reasons given for them; did they make sense?
Anyway, this all to say I’m good with being lynched. I don’t think it’s great that the day drag on and on, so if any of you were swayed by my “appeals to emotion” (end sarcasm) don’t be. We need to move on and I’m willing to be the lynch if it gets that accomplished."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I don't remember who asked me for my scumreads (I have the feeling it was MrBuddyLee, but I don't have time currently to go back and check). These are going to be paraphrases; I am on a deadline. The info on specifically why is probably in my previous PBPAs.
- PJ - obviously my top scumread. Everyone is scum, he has no townreads. He's unwilling to give any of his precious info to town. He's afraid of LML but the VCA gave him courage to jump on him. Timing of jumps is just odd.
chamber - this is weak for me. I go back and forth on it; I haven't played with chamber that I remember and I can't get any handle on his playstyle. Some things looked really scummy to me but I can't actually recall them now (I'm sure it's in my PBPA, though, for later.)
Untrod Tripod - jumping from one wagon to another (not scummy in itself) but with no reasons. Jumps in to defend people on playstyle in a way that looked arbitrary and not organic.
LML - I see the points made against LML and I can agree with them in part. Also, LML has no scum on his wagon right now (IMO) which makes him way more likely scum for me. The person I thought was scummy (PJ) jumped to me as soon as that wagon became viable. I would sheep Yos if I weren't voting PJ.
Undo - Just awful posting. I kind of feel like he asked me for content and then voted me for thinking too many people were town. I don't get the sense he even read what I wrote; he just skimmed it for a chance to vote me.
STD - This is contingent. If LML and UT are scum, he's not (I think). He's my weakest scumread outside of chamber, whom i just don't have meta for. Actually, my independent read on UT says that STD is town. Don't rely on this though without a flip from LML or UT.
Mathcam is not scum. We need a lynch soon. His point about protecting the powerroles is right on too.
Sorry this is short but I'm playing catch-up on both Mafia and on my actual work."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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About VitaminR's question about CES's question; I'm not sure what I'm supposed to respond to in this. Obviously the absolute best lynch for today is a scum lynch. If a wagon built on someone I have reasonable suspicions regarding that wasn't PJ, I'd move to it because that would be a better lynch than a confirmed townie. (I'm confirmed to myself, I'm not saying you should consider me that way.) I'd obviously support a PJ lynch because that's my most confident suspicion. By mathcam's figuring, I'd put it at 40%.
I feel like there has been more real discussion of reads since I asked to be lynched. I didn't really expect that. My primary reasoning for saying, yes, lynch me, was that things were dragging and we needed a lynch to actually give people solid information. A lot of the commentary that stood out to me amounted to people saying "I don't feel _______ is sincere." Some of that was directed my way, though not all by a long shot. One sure way to prove sincerity is to flip town. Everything the townie said can be read with the knowledge of their alignment.
If we're not going to lynch scum, lynching a VT is the next best thing in my opinion. Not just any VT, but someone who has given reads and who has put information out there for the town. The negative side to that is something mathcam pointed out, which I hadn't thought about, but which I don't think overrules my primary point. I do tend to be active and to post a lot and to put a lot of information out there for town to evaluate; however, I'm not the greatest scumhunter, and my contributions tend to be most useful in the later game where logic plays a role. (People who have played with me can verify this, I suspect.)
A scum lynch is best (Captain Obvious is obvious). It would give us links to other scum and would provide lots of information to use going forward. A town lynch that doesn't out a powerrole and that offers at least some information to town is second best. Worst is outting a powerrole or just having the game stagnate because people can't come to any conclusion; the last part is primarily why I wanted to push my lynch, get town moving again and keep this game active.
I still think my logic holds, even with the increased activity now."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Also, not related to the previous; I've played with DrippingGoofball quite a bit in the old days and I know she's an accurate scumhunter. In one game I played with her and Adel she spotted the scum pretty much 1-2-3. She's worth listening to when she's town, and I think she is here."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I <3 you, ABR I have to call them like I see them, though. I think the game was Picking Simplicity, if that helps anyone."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I think CES is town. (Yeah, I know he's voting me, which makes him wrong, but it doesn't make him scum.) I played with him when he was scum in Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and he played completely different to this; he was accommodating and moved from lynch to lynch without making himself a target like he's doing here. I realise this was a number of years ago, but I don't think he would death tunnel on me like this if he were scum. People with more recent meta can weigh in, but I am not seeing it myself."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Well, crap.
Never mind then. I have no meta read on CES at all.
Glork is right, though. Sotty7 isn't reading the game. Otherwise she wouldn't be asking questions that I'd already answered about two pages previous."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I'm going to add Sotty7 to my scumlist as well. She felt that my tunneling on PJ and not branching out (note that this was less than 48 hours after I replaced in) was scummy because I wasn't looking at everyone yet and making cases on them. Now, Sotty7 isn't even reading the postings of the person she is voting. To me, that's hypocritical and plays into one of my biggest scumtells; scum don't need to read the thread because they already know who the scum are. If Sotty really thought I was scum, don't you think she'd be reading my posts MORE carefully to try to catch any scumminess she could to support her case?
Sotty's not doing that. She's skimming them, she's missing them altogether. She's content to keep her vote planted on someone without caring if they're town or scum.
To me that's scummy."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Yes, I'm reading your posts, including the ones you embed as links rather than quoting. Why did you do that, by the way? It's certainly not to put your case out front and center. It looks like you're trying to hide it, since you're quoting everything else.
You were voting my slot before I came into the game, so I never really considered that you might have been doing that for scummy reasons. But you've flatly said that you just skimmed my PBPA. You're missing points about your PRIMARY suspect. It's a little different than missing something from someone else.
What was the point of your question about Untrod Tripod, anyway? What were you going to derive from that if I didn't find him scummy already?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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UNVOTE:
VOTE: LoudMouthLee
He basically just claimed scum in thread.
I thought he'd hinted at a powerrole earlier, but I guess I was way off on that."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I think it's a real slip. I could be wrong, but I don't see why you use the word bus in that context if you're not scum."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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By my count we need two more on LML (I could be wrong, though, so please double check me).
I'm sure LML is scum so I would encourage his lynch over mine; however, I think I need four more to be lynched. (Again, double check.)
@Patrick:If you get a chance, can we have a last-minute scramble-at-deadline vote count?
Thank you."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I think saying someone is bussing you is the equivalent of claiming scum, yeah. Does your experience differ?
In most cases, opinions change based on things that happen in the thread. I haven't noticed that with you, however, so maybe it's not true for you."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I thought LML softclaimed Roll Blocking (RoleBlocker) here. I didn't want to say anything for obvious reasons.In post 14, LoudmouthLee wrote:
Pfft. Your memories post halted my dice rolling.In post 12, chamber wrote:random my ass! you edited those dice you dog.
Rollus Interruptus.
PS: STD is another Postus Interruptus. Stop DiceBlocking me.
I thought PJ had seen the same thing and was trying to get LML lynched to save the nightkill.
Until the bus slipup, I was convinced I was a better lynch than a town PR."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I thought LML was the roleblocker from before I replaced into the game. I think a few people could recall that I read looking for things like that. In an old game, Flameaxe commented that we should all lynch someone and have donuts after; I caught that and voted with him until he got nightkilled. I think I could find it if you need me to.
When you moved to him, I thought you had spotted it and that you were scum trying to push a lynch on a power role so that you could use your nightkill on someone else. LML was playing scummy, and I couldn't very well avoid saying so. But scummy can mean powerrole too.
I didn't want to out LML in case I was wrong and the jump was random (I thought your move onto him was odd in its timing). I thought you could be scum. I was sure that LML was town PR. He even said something about rolefishing to someone and I was sure it was another breadcrumb.
When he made the slip, I realised I was wrong. Trading a VT for a PR made sense to me, but I wasn't trading my VT life for a scum.
The doc clue just re-confirmed that he was scum to me."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I was talking to PJ.
No, it was just the timing of the vote and the way it was done. That was the first vote on LML's wagon that really felt artificial to me. I felt like the breadcrumb was SO obvious and such a constructed response that I felt like everyone was seeing it. In short, I was paranoid on the subject"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I don't know either. My guess would be that I was soft-defending him all day. I don't have a meta on LML, so maybe he thought that if he attacked me I would vote him and that would shift the momentum. I wouldn't have except for the scumslip, but he wouldn't have had any reason to know that.
Scum-LML had all reasons but the above to vote me; maybe he thought it would make him obvious scum when I flipped town. I don't know if that would be true though. I think it would have been easy to coast and let me get lynched on Day One. Maybe he was playing for Day Two, but I can't figure out how that would work.
I think PJ is probably town based on LML-scum. There wasn't any tentativeness on either side there imo."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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It was addressed before. Consider it as an answer to the previous speculation. This question wasn't original to you and has been discussed in the thread already."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I understood it fine.In post 953, chamber wrote:
How incomprehensible was this post for others?In post 878, chamber wrote:I'm also worried that confirmation bias is a large factor in my suspicion of bookitty, but it's hard to internally audit for that.
Glrok's handling of the 'slip' feels most natural of those that posted around that time and seemed to switch because of it, to me anyway."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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@PJ:
Your comment that you'd been afraid to engage (I am tired and I'm not looking up the exact wording right now, but I think that's a decent paraphrase) LML followed by a rather vehement case after a couple of people had already been on the bandwagon looked odd. It's like someone saying, "I was afraid to take on Glork, but this VCA he did was just the last straw!" You hadn't been shy earlier, and you didn't look scared later. It didn't ring true to me.
It didn't occur to me that he'd be breadcrumbing roleblocker as scum. I guess that's confirmation bias, but I thought he was playing scummy to try to avoid the night kill. I had filed him in town PR before I ever replaced in. It wasn't until the bus thing that I thought he was scum. I was even thinking of voting myself to make sure of a lynch before that, which makes it even worse.
And yes, I feel really stupid now."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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No. I thought he was role blocker because of this. LML's non-claim was a reference to a children's poem, which I believe goes like this:In post 14, LoudmouthLee wrote:
Pfft. Your memories post halted my dice rolling.In post 12, chamber wrote:random my ass! you edited those dice you dog.
Rollus Interruptus.
PS: STD is another Postus Interruptus. Stop DiceBlockingme.
Hickory Dickory Dock
The mouse ran up the clock
The clock struck one, and down he run
Hickory Dickory DOCk.
See it now?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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@Mathcam: Could you possibly make cases in the normal way, rather than using some arbitrary method that I suspect only makes sense to you? Right now, it looks like you're moving people around randomly with +1s and -1s but you don't connect those to any specific events. If you're awarding me a shiny gold star, I want to know what I'm getting it for. I'm not just talking about the long series of numbers recently posted; I'm talking about the lack of reason given for most of your reads so far.
Right now it looks like your figures can mean just about anything you want them to. Saying your figures are based on gut is the opposite of logic and reason. Just using numbers doesn't make it logical. I could give ABR a +1 because I like his avatar, or DGB a -1 because she didn't bring me cookies. If you don't put any reasons down (and I really don't see specific reasons in your posting) then it looks like you're keeping all your options open.
Can you give more detailed reads or support for your up-and-down votes, please?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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This is exactly what I mean, chamber, if it's not clear. Apart from ABR, he doesn't give any reasoning, and the reasoning he does give on ABR is confused. (At one point he suggests that ABR is waffling between an ABR and an LML wagon.)In post 1011, mathcam wrote: In any case, I've updated my list significantly given new information. Here's a rough organization of my reads. I'm not sure I can justify every single one of them.
Probably pro-town: Chamber, Sotty, StD, inhim, PJ, Yos
Slight pro-town read: MBL, KK, GC, VitR, Glork
Not sure: CTD, DGB
Slight scum: UT, undo, CES, BooKitty
Leaning scum: ABR, porochaz
BooKitty was "leaning scum" (again, still mostly suspicion inherited from Seol) until Day 2, where I agree that her revelation about the role-blocking crumb. I agree with PJ that this explanation has some holes in it, though it's an awfully convoluted ploy for a scum to hope to play for some advantage. So slight town bump there.
I'm not sure what to make of DGB -- I think I might actually feel completely the opposite of Glork, that with the seeming inevitability of LML's lynch, DGB might have thought to distance herself from a LML scumflip by doing something so blatantly pro-LML to cause Glork's reaction. Of course, this argument is dripping with WIFOM, but to me it's enough to mitigate any pro-town boost I initially gave her from being so blatantly pro-LML right before the lynch in the first place. I had her as pretty pro-town yesterday...today, not as much.
ABR is probably a pretty controversial element of my list. But here's where I found going through Day 1 with LML-scum knowledge very interesting. I could totally envision a scum ABR making all of his posts with the idea that he'd get on the LML wagon fast and hard enough to give him some credibility later if LML ever got lynched, but never push hard enough to ensure that the lynch happened. The meta he employs makes this very doable -- he can be on an LML wagon and be very insistent about it without anyone taking him seriously, because he contributes essentially nothing in terms of an argument. And then he was quite happy to abandon that wagon in favor of greener pastures that don't get his scumbuddy LML lynched. His waffling between ABR and LML looks, retroactively, like someone who wants to appear anti-LML, but would really prefer to lynch someone else. After his first exodus from the LMLmobile, he gets back on (seemingly reluctabtly) only after prodding by VitR. My only real concern about this argument are the two times where ABR actually does defend LML's posting (posts 309 and 454), which seems slightly off. Nonetheless, reading day 1 with an ABR-LML pairing in mind felt like a very natural fit.
Porochaz hasn't posted enough to get a solid read, but he, like LML, has done nothing to me that seems pro-town. I'm a little surprised by his absence on other people's scumlists -- perhaps there's an argument I was forgetting? In fact, I even found his drunk post a little scummy, though I can't seem to be able to articulate why.
I'm not voting him because I have no meta. From his name, though, I was expecting thinking a bit more logical and organized. If I'm wrong, tell me now."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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The bolded part is precisely my issue too. I actually thought mathcam was being sarcastic by posting naked figures with no support or reasoning with them. I don't think that now, though; I just don't see the point of the post at all.In post 1076, petroleumjelly wrote:Now some follow-up questions for mathcam.It should be noted that I did not realize your +1/-1 system would not even giveI imagine this makes it difficult for you later on to interpret them, and so you are certainly correct that it makes it more difficult for anybody else to figure out what went on.post numbers.
I don't keep written notes (other than the pbpas I post in the thread from time to time) but I am starting to think I ought to."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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@CTD:I'm not all that sure of my reads given my fiasco of yesterday. I am waiting to hear more from Undo or mathcam or anything of substance from Untrod Tripod and I need to do a comprehensive reread incorporating the knowledge that LML was scum, which I probably won't have time for before the weekend. I don't feel good about Undo, but that could be OMGUS from yesterday. Mathcam hasn't provided any solid reads, in my opinion. I thought his response with the naked numbers and no justification was intended to be sarcastic. He hasn't said so, though, so I am at a loss as to what he meant by doing that. Not what the figures meant, but what Mathcam meant. I would like an explanation for that. I thought he would explain it in the thread, but since he hasn't done so yet:
@Mathcam:Why did you post your plus and minus numbers in the way that you did? Did you think it would be helpful to PJ in some way? What was your motivation for doing so in that way?
In regard to the argument between DGB and ABR, I don't agree that town would know that someone else was town. Neither ABR nor DGB have made very compelling cases on each other and both have unique playstyles that make it difficult to determine whether they are town or scum in any particular game. That said, I have played with DGB enough to lean town on her. I have never been able to read ABR, especially not in the early part of games.
In short, CTD, I'll vote when I'm ready."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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No, again, not what I meant.
I believe (and PJ can correct me if I am wrong) that PJ wanted to see the numbers posted with some sort of explanation. Posting the numbers by themselves is meaningless and seems like a sarcastic response to me. If someone said, "Bookitty, why do you think DGB is town?" and I responded by quoting the post where she says, "I'm town," that's a sarcastic response and one that tells nothing about motivation, what I saw or what is really going on.
Posting the naked numbers without an explanation is useless. I think you know that. So I'm asking why you didn't just say, "I don't keep that kind of detailed notes," rather than posting something you ought to have known would be useless or nearly so.
Just because PJ asked you to is not an adequate explanation of why you'd go against your better judgment to post that. I thought you were irritated with him and did it somewhat out of spite, which I could see as a townie response. Your later postings, though, seem to indicate that isn't the case.
So again, what was your motivation for doing that in that way?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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DGB has done the same in games in which she was town, if I recall correctly. It's certainly not a huge red flag for me.
When Mathcam did post his reads, which was in a different post, I felt that he gave very weak reads on most people. He's justified that with the 40 percent comment, if you recall. The two issues are separate. The first may be playstyle. I've never played with mathcam that I recall and I don't know if this is how he always plays.
The reasoning behind posting the figures naked and without comment (which I just don't believe he thought was what PJ was asking him for) is something else and may shed some light on his motivations for me. If you don't think it's relevant or useful, then just ignore it. I, however, still want to know why.
EBWOP: Okay. I thought you were being sarcastic/exasperated. Your failure to admit it was bugging me, but I'm ready to drop it now."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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@Undo:Mathcam and I were your top suspects yesterday if I recall correctly. Yet, in your analysis, you've sort of glossed over both him and me with minimal comment so far. This seems odd given your suspicions and vote yesterday. (Yes, I'm asking you to comment on Mathcam and on me.)
Have your other opinions and suspicions changed materially since yesterday? What specifically has DGB done to move her to the top of your list?
EBWOP: I'm so sorry, InHimShallIBe. That's suckage"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Most important first:
@DGB:I am keeping good thoughts for you. As someone who has been dazzled by the accuracy of the scumputer, I respect you as a canny player. But you're also a friend. So please take care of yourself.
I'm going to do a reread this weekend (I may have said this before). I like MBL's posting and I was already suspicious of Undo, but I want to check on some things for myself."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Okay, I completed my reread up to the point where LML posts his VCA. I have a huge list of notes that I can post if people want to see how I derived my viewpoints. It's HUGE though, and I won't be cleaning it up, but it's readable to me and I think it can be understood. I only focused on interactions with LML and about him, and only the ones that I thought were important.
My suspicions of Undo are apparently not all based on OMGUS, which is something I was checking for. DGB looks significantly worse too, because of some RVS voting. MBL looks town to me on my reread; Green Crayons too. LML's defense of VitaminR is off somehow. Untrod Tripod's Post 306 is oddly noncommittal; he doesn't recall? More suspicious of chamber now. Mathcam stays on my list because of inconsistency in recent posts, but I don't think I saw any meaningful incriminating information in MafiaSSK's posts at the start of the game.
My primary reasons for voting Undo have to do with LML's attack on ABR based on Undo's "legitimate question" and Undo's questioning of ABR about their LML votes. He asks ABR repeatedly why he's voting LML and hunts that line of questioning much longer than I think is reasonable.
VOTE: Undo
If you don't mind reading my notes, I'll be happy to post them. Remember, you were warned."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Excerpts from my notes:In post 1387, Green Crayons wrote:
I'm interested in what specific posts you're referring to.In post 1384, Bookitty wrote:My primary reasons for voting Undo have to do with LML's attack on ABR based on Undo's "legitimate question" and Undo's questioning of ABR about their LML votes. He asks ABR repeatedly why he's voting LML and hunts that line of questioning much longer than I think is reasonable.
Undo questions ABR's vote on LML in post 96.
LML's Post 110. He quotes the post in which Undo questioned ABR's vote on LML. Then quotes STD's later vote on undo for questioning ABR's vote on LML. Then votes STD. " At every turn. I dislike Albert's lack of.. well... anything. He has not seem to be scumhunting whatsoever, and if he is, he is not sharing any analysis thus far. What's more telling, however, was Undo asking a legitimate question, and STD running to defend Albert's lack of substance. Strangely, MafiaSSK's response to Save The Dragon's post is similar to mine. There's something here, in this exchange, and I think I know where to start." Votes STD. Asks ABR about ABR's vote, asks Undo about the previous wagons on MafiaSSK (mathcam) and Tigris (Kublai Khan).
Undo in post 204: quotes ABR: "I believe in the LML wagon." Undo: "Why?"
Post 213, ABR: "LML, good choice, lock and load"
Undo requotes his question from post 204 in post 220. ABR responds: "His (LML's) votes don't inspire trust."
Post 246, Undo continues to question ABR about his LML vote.
LML's post 302. Jabs at ABR, ad hominem. Muddled response to Yos's question: "Yos, going back to the opening page,
my first post was a dice roll (myself) and the second post was a re-roll. Tigris was the vote in RVS. I didn't move it to begin with because of Tigris's hop on MafiaSSK for being the third person to vote on a wagon, twice. I kept my vote on Tigris instead of moving it because (a) no one, at the moment, was more suspicious and (b) my vote was there already. I know this may not make any sense, but my suspicion of Tigris would have not have warranted a vote at the time... but since my vote was already there, I kept it there. It would have warranted a FoS."
Continues saying STD is scum.
Also, in tangential regard to Undo, states this: "It sucks to admit, but I'm kinda feeling like I've lost a step. Like I'm not nearly as good at this game as I used to be." (Need to check if Undo catches this AtE) He never did, so it makes it look like he's just cherrypicking his dislike of AtE to suit his voting needs.
I think that's all of it."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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My notes are at home and I am at work, but I'm still very okay with my Undo vote. I stopped right before the LML/PJ fight, but before that I don't think I had anything bad against PJ in terms of interaction with LML. I'll check later tonight though."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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UNVOTE:
I don't have time for a reread right now. I will look at my notes when I get home, but for now:
VOTE: mathcam"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I'm sticking with mathcam for now, but I do have a comment and then a question:
I think Chamber is town for this (from my notes):
Chamber's Post 320: "I'm not really sure how I feel. There have certainly been some things that bothered me. I've refrained from speaking about them because I'm hoping town LML will self correct when/if he stops being pressured so much."
I see no way that scum-Chamber would go out of his way to call scumbuddy LML town in this way. It's way too obvious and it would be just as easy to indicate a null-read that wouldn't cause problems later in the game.
So my question is this: Chamber, do you feel that CES has been following your votes to an unusual degree in this game? Or is this normal meta for him when you play together?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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To put it in context, the above quote is in response to VitaminR who was attacking LML just before that and asked Chamber what he thought.
The only really weird thing I found in my notes about VitaminR (who I have as attacking LML all through the game, pretty much) is this:
Post 343, LML: "I think anyone who is looking to create a correlation between me and VitR is acting certainly scummy and may very well be trying to domino lynches. Although he's attacking me, I currently have a pro-town read on VitR. Knowing my alignment, I believe that anyone who is trying to say "they can't have the same alignment" are not only pushing for a lynch of me today, but will also be pushing for a lynch of VitR after I flip blue."
I thought that was odd on the reread, but I have no meta on LML and it looks like deliberate WIFOM to me."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I continue to think Glork is town. His exasperation, sarcasm and general grouchy demeanour completely corresponds to my meta of him as town. He also does a town leader thing that I haven't seen here, but that may be a factor of the size of the game and the number of competing voices. I think Glork is much less abrasive and much more "let's discuss things. Why do you think that?" when he's scum. If you have a different meta on him, I'm listening, but that's what I see.In post 1684, MrBuddyLee wrote:@Bookitty, you haven't mentioned Glork today. What's your take on him?
@Mathcam:I did think you were town; that was predicated on me thinking LML was a powerrole. You were voting me, and I was supporting you in that vote to avoid outing the powerrole I thought LML had. In retrospect with the knowledge that LML was scum, your "if we lose a VT, we lose a VT" attitude and dismissive handwaving over LML suspicions looks different to me."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Also, while I think of it, did Untrod Tripod's Post 1677 influence your read on him at all, mathcam?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I am not voting Glork.
If I absolutely have to, I will vote DGB to avoid no-lynch. I think she's more likely than Glork to flip scum, and I'm not going to be able to read her any better in this game than I have in the past.
I'm checking in here, but I'm also on a writing deadline. I can post my notes on interactions with LML up through the VCA as I offered earlier as that won't take any real time. But I'm not going to jump to a fourth wagon when there are already three in play."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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