NY 176: Completely Ridiculous Mafia (Game Over)

[Izariael]

Let me tell you the tale of Cabd.

He was once a little lad, of about 9 years of age. His father told him "Now Cabd, don't ye be chasing yer ball into th' woods. Now scram and let yer ol' Pops drink his brews!" and then changed the channel to some Nascar and ignored Cabd completely. It was a Sunday afternoon, so little Cabd played outside with his ball. It was raining. Like... really raining. In fact, it was raining so much that Cabd slipped in a mud puddle and knocked his ball way down the steep hill. Cabd chased down the hill after the ball. Oh how he loved that ball, the foolish boy he was. He chased it as it rolled right on into the woods to the base of a skinny tree. As he ran into the woods, he thought of his dear Pops watching Nascar and saying "Now Cabd, don't ye be chasing yer ball into th' woods. Now scram and let yer ol' Pops drink his brews!" as if it had happened just moments ago. The rest of his insignificant life flashed before his eyes. As he stumbled upon his ball, he realized he was more scared than ever before. He got lost, and couldn't find his way out of the woods because he was too overwhelmed in his grief to think to just turn around and walk straight. He tried to run out of the woods as quick as he could, but it wasn't quick enough. He ran in a non-sensical pattern around the skinniest tree in the woods until it was well past nightfall. As he feared for his life amidst the woods known to be inhabited by wolves, he managed to miraculously find his way back home. He clawed his way up the muddy hill as he thought of the comforting warmth of his bed. He walked in the door of his trailer home, showered and went to bed. Cabd grew up to become mafia scum.

THE END.

VOTE: Cabd

[Izariael]

I don't know why I'm not a best-selling author yet

[Izariael]

Ah... yes. That was probably a very big oversight when I decided it was the best place to write an inspirational compilation of fables.

But alas, Aesop I am not.

[Izariael]

Fun fact: herons are fucking massive.

This made my night.

[Izariael]

Close. I grew up to become "Every Breath You Take"

LAL!

You actually read that post? Why?

HEY! HEY HEY! I worked damn hard on that story! That is the work of a literary genius! (moody artiste)

I know nero cain's gonna do it anyways but can we please not allcaps my name? It's "Cabd"

Any reason you are intentionally being an ass?

uhhhhhh.

My sentiments exactly. I didn't see the ass? NOT THAT I'M OPPOSED... Cabd

[Izariael]

VOTE: Toomai

Mind explaining your nocturnal activities? My results were...damning.

VOTE: Toomai

For damning results.

~Slash

I feel like there's something I'm missing here...? Is this some kind of inside joke or are there actually things to talk about there?

Alternately, was MVP's vote just a play off of the wording from Aegor's vote? Pourquoi?

[Izariael]

vote bob

I would also vote AcBd if he is a wagon.

No reasoning provided on your initial vote, and yet you provided reasoning for an alternate vote that seems sheepy/scummy? tsk tsk

[Izariael]

Was wondering this myself, but I sort of decided it's a joke.

I initially brushed it off as a joke since I didn't recall seeing anything about a Night Zero, so I wanted to be sure there wasn't anything going on w/the comments about damning results.

[Izariael]

vote bob

I would also vote AcBd if he is a wagon.

No reasoning provided on your initial vote, and yet you provided reasoning for an alternate vote that seems sheepy/scummy? tsk tsk

oh sorry for not giving random reasoning for my vote; I know that's a towntell

Thanks for the passive-aggressiveness. I just don't understand why you would vote Bob without listing a reason, yet list a reason you would vote for someone else and not follow through. That means it was a deliberate choice to vote Bob over Cabd... hardly random.

[Izariael]

Sorry guys,

I have a pretty busy weekend ahead of me. I'll be home in a couple of hours, and will post some thoughts then, but I will likely be MIA until Sunday evening once I log off for the evening, about 48 hours.

[Izariael]

I initially brushed it off as a joke since I didn't recall seeing anything about a Night Zero, so I wanted to be sure there wasn't anything going on w/the comments about damning results.

Confused town or obfuscating scum? You decide! (Seriously though how many games have you played?)

Hmm, something just seemed weird, so I figured I'd ask. I tend to ask a lot about peculiarities any time they strike my interest. Sometimes I'm seeking the answer, other times I'm just gauging the reaction; usually both. I'm transitioning from live-play, where I have most of my experience, so this is only my second game on forums. Still trying to adapt my play style to fit, since a lot of my intuition and scumhunting relies on tone/demeanor/body language when I play live.

58 felt pretty natural, depending on....
Is English your first language, Iz?

Interesting story (not really); I grew up learning both English and French, but never became fully proficient in either... Sometimes my English comprehension suffers because of French habits, and vice versa. You'll likely see me asking for clarification a lot, and this is why.

[Izariael]

An unstable read is more susceptible to change than a stable read

Still, if I had to guess one scum right now, I'd choose Jimmy

It's not always better

I'm not sure that I understand the reasoning here..? JR's posts don't really have much read one way or the other, but I don't think there's enough general interest in pressuring him yet so a vote on him seems kind of moot. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see other pressure wagons being more effective at this time.

[Izariael]

Alrighty guys, I'm leaving for my weekend hiatus in about an hour, so I'm leaving you guys with my current reads, as underwhelming as they may be. I'll be home some time Sunday evening (Pacific time zone)

Towny:

Cephrir: I may be biased because his profile picture is Pumbaa, but several of his reads have lined up with my own ([102] listed most of my current scums). I feel that he's pushing conversation in a productive direction with some of his questions and statements as well.

AngryPidgeon (AP): I've liked some of his input so far, and also like the fact that he is weighing in on topics all across the board.

Ki-Gi: I like what I'm seeing from him so far. A couple posts in particular stood out to me.[139/196]

Mirhawk: Although I think he got off on the wrong foot, I think the fact that he was able to admit the mistake he made was kinda towny. A bit of a shaky read, but I had a similar intrigue of the event so I can see where he was coming from. [198]

Toomai: Slight townread, not much, but I'm less suspicious of him than I am Aegor. I liked his post [123].

Null:

Aegor: Tunneling Toomai or just joking around? Either way, would like to see a more broad focus from him. Nothing currently pushing my read too far in either direction.

Jimmy_Raynor (JR): I don't see much here, which will concern me if it continues, but for now I'm fine listing him as null while I check out other peoples.

Aeronaut: Not sure that I have any confidence in my read on him yet... He's a bit flip-floppy for me still. I'll look more into him when I get back, since gut feeling is all I've got at this point.

Cabd: Admittedly, I want to put him as town because he responded so well to my RVS vote on him (and for [130],) but I don't know that it's enough to put him as town yet. I try not to fall deep into pockets, especially this early on.

TheWayItEnds (TWIE): A bit split on this one, thus being null. I feel like his tone/reactions are towny, but at the same time it feels like it's all off-topic stuff, so I'm not really seeing a contribution from him yet that I could read as pro-town.

MVP: Not much to go off yet. Hopefully I'll have a read on them soon.

Scummy:

Depraved Justice (DJ): I'm not a big fan of the tone in his early posts, but putting that aside his vote at [42] still raises an eyebrow despite his later explanation ([201]). I think part of this is how he went about hopping the wagon, another part being that I didn't consider Cabd my primary choice of wagon at that point.

Bicephalous Bob (BB): I'm struggling to understand his motivations. The fact that his unexplained RVS vote has come full circle back to JR [48/188] for what I feel is shaky reasoning feels like something that might warrant attention. I'm not really sure what his voting for JR is trying to achieve, and the fact that zero explanation was given for the first one makes me unable to dismiss the second vote as coincidence.

T S O: I'm still a bit perturbed by his exchange with me earlier, and so while I was amused by his convo with TWIE, it's not really enough for me to shake the feeling yet. Of the three though, he would be my least-scummy read.

UNVOTE: Cabd; VOTE: Bicephalous Bob

[Izariael]

Bicephalous Bob (BB)
....for what I feel is shaky reasoning

seems

like something

EBWOP. Minor change for sentence flow. It bothered me.

[Izariael]

I fuck with that reads list.

Omg are my reads that bad?! I'm LURNING!

[Izariael]

/runs away sobbing, never to be seen until Sunday evening.

[Izariael]

Do you think the game is currently not in serious mode? If it is, what post do you think kicked off serious mode?

I'mmm back

Cabd... what kind of questions are these? They seem super fluffy and I don't understand how the answers could be relevant to Toomai's behavior... Is there something specific you're trying to gauge from them

This is the pinnacle of your contributions so far, which worries me somewhat. Seeeeeemmmmmmsssss a bit scummy overall when I look at your ISO.

[Izariael]

I'm liking Izzy. That's your name now, by the way. Sorry.

Don't apologize, I actually prefer it. My nickname's been Izzy for years now What are you liking about me?

[Izariael]

There is in fact something I am trying to get here, please do not walk into my lines of questioning.

Fair enough. I hope you'll share the results of your research later. *whisks away*

[Izariael]

What Cabd is doing is pretty obvious. I'll also take a note of you trying to cockblock the line of inquiry. When Toomai flips scum you're gonna have a nasty looking associative tell.

Clearly it wasn't obvious to me, hence my inquiry

If I was trying to cockblock the questions entirely, I wouldn't have added this:

Is there something specific you're trying to gauge from them

[Izariael]

Also we should nominate goodmorning for best flavor after this game!

I concur with this statement. Her posts bring me life

[Izariael]

Pointless fluff post:

I fell behind on the game while catching up on other stuffs, but I'm off work today so I will catch up and stay with it today/tonight. I've got about 11 pages or so to catch up on.

[Izariael]

My god, this game is a chore to read

[Izariael]

That's all I have to say on reinoe, Izzy. He's going to do his best to discredit that before you read it, but I ask you do, because the linking took me a while.

Why is this appeal to me specifically? I mean, I'll take a look when I finish reading the day's posts, but I don't understand why you are calling for me...

[Izariael]

@izarael
Do you think "BEETLEJUICE" is a tell? Also what is your opinion of Cabd?

I'm not sure I know what BEETLEJUICE is... (I've seen the movie once but it was over 15 years ago...) Based on the context, I'm led to believe it's when a lurking player suddenly appears when their name is spoken? In which case no, I don't think it's a tell.

In fact, I've just done it myself right now. RL commitments interfere with mafia sometimes (shocking, I know) so I don't think it's inherently scummy to appear as soon as you are directly asked a question or voted against. Those are things that require direct involvement from a player, so it makes sense to me that they would respond to those actions before evaluating anything else going on.

I would never rely on that for a scumtell on its own, but in conjunction with other tells it could be another nail in the coffin. I still think it's a very weak tell, and unreliable too.

As for Cabd:
-I don't like his townread on reinoe's slot [376], it looks like half-assed scum meta being used to townread a slot. T S O picked up on it in [396], but I don't care much for Cabd's explanation in [423] either.
-I don't like his scumread on Depraved Justice [387/390]: He votes DJ for being absent, then scumreads him for responding? Again, I'm not 100% sure on the definition of beetlejuice, but I'm going with what I said above. I may not be completely overwhelmed by DJ's presence or even his alignment, but I don't think this was a fair conclusion to draw.
-I'm still catching up on reading, so I'm not sure how I feel about his vote/action on MVP yet. I haven't read much of MVP's stuff... I'll keep it null for now.

[Izariael]

I'm still mulling my next move, but I know my current vote won't be of any use, so...

UNVOTE: Bicephalous Bob

[Izariael]

Is there any basis to the MVP wagon other than active lurking? I'm not seeing it.

Twie bob toomai aegor

That's the scumteam

Goodnight Los Angeles

What the fuck did you just literally posted my page 6 townreads and posted here as a scumread

Oops!

This is the only other thing I can see... and I'm not even really sure what the fuck this is lol. Like seriously... what is this I don't even. I'm not sure I want to push this guy to lynch.

[Izariael]

I've been posting since before cabd voting me and every day since then

but

ok

I am still lurking

don't mind me

I don't happen to think you're lurking, but it seems to be the only reasoning I'm seeing from others to vote on you. I'm trying to understand if I'm missing something, because right now the L-2 wagon (was at L-1!!!) seems unnecessary.

[Izariael]

I pegged you for this exact same bullshit routine in fire emblem notsci. Come get dunked.

Is there anything to your scumread on MVP beyond meta? Because I see many posts of his that show involvement in the game, but from what I see, you keep hiding behind his "lurking" as a scumtell because meta. The two big issues I'm having with this wagon are:

1) I don't think MVP is lurking. Perhaps he was at the start, but he's been consistently active since, more active than I myself have been.

2) Why is there a lack of reads based on his contributions? I might be missing posts here, but I haven't seen any criticism coming from his statements/arguments/etc. and I can't fathom why so many people are jumping on a wagon led by nothing more than lurking.

[Izariael]

And I'm using the pronoun 'he' instead of they because habit. I'll try to kick this one.

[Izariael]

Welcome to cabd. meta is pretty much all I do, man.

But you have no meta on me and yet were able to provide reasoning for your read on me within the scope of the game. Why are you not doing the same for MVP? I'm not discounting your meta entirely, but I do find it questionable. I'm not planning to put any weight into it unless there's other factors within the context of this game that I find to be scummy. And at this time, I do not see anything from MVP, aside from what I pointed out in [860].

@MVP:

Can you explain what was going on in 777? Is this first-world hydra problems? Heads don't agree on reads or something? You're using the same reads again in [870]...

Go read under completed large themes "fire emblem awakening" I was good cop bad cop. Notsci was some hydra that was scum and got dunked day one or two.

I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with this game, let alone reading another large theme game that may or may not provide anything useful...

[Izariael]

My sides.

[Izariael]

@Aeronaught:

whom are your scumreads?

@Izariael:

same question.

I'll get back to you on this. As of this moment I've read up to about 540-ish, then picked up again at about 760. Once I've had a chance to read and evaluate the gap in-between I'll have a better idea, because right now I don't think I really have any fore-runners. I have read MVP's ISO though since he was at L-1 at some point, and I will say that I'm not voting that wagon. I don't see how he could be the scummiest person in this game, and I'm a bit confused about why so many people are on that wagon to begin with.

[Izariael]

@Aeronaught:

whom are your scumreads?

@Izariael:

same question.

I'll get back to you on this. As of this moment I've read up to about 540-ish, then picked up again at about 760. Once I've had a chance to read and evaluate the gap in-between I'll have a better idea, because right now I don't think I really have any fore-runners. I have read MVP's ISO though since he was at L-1 at some point, and I will say that I'm not voting that wagon. I don't see how he could be the scummiest person in this game, and I'm a bit confused about why so many people are on that wagon to begin with.

There's a shiny spot for you on the opportunist's wagon. Hint: The name starts with R.

Well here's how I sit atm. My top 3 scummies are reinoe, Cabd and yourself. My next 3 would be Bob, Toomai and Mirhawk, but they're all more null than anything. I'm currently working on reading that portion that I've missed, so I'll recap my thoughts when I get there. I'm townreading T S O more than I was initially, so I wouldn't put him on my list at this time.

[Izariael]

Your reaction to him not answering the question was also way out of proportion to the offense. I would have expected you to maybe ask him the question again, or ask if agreed with the other answer or something like that. Not go in all out attack mode and demand answers while simultaneously

insinuating that it was scummy to allow others to "intrude" on your conversation.

@Mirhawk (and others):

What are your thoughts on Cabd and reinoe's reactions in posts 330/333?

Do you think the game is currently not in serious mode? If it is, what post do you think kicked off serious mode?

I'mmm back

Cabd... what kind of questions are these? They seem super fluffy and I don't understand how the answers could be relevant to Toomai's behavior... Is there something specific you're trying to gauge from them

This is the pinnacle of your contributions so far, which worries me somewhat. Seeeeeemmmmmmsssss a bit scummy overall when I look at your ISO.

There is in fact something I am trying to get here, please do not walk into my lines of questioning.

What Cabd is doing is pretty obvious.

I'll also take a note of you trying to cockblock the line of inquiry.

When Toomai flips scum you're gonna have a nasty looking associative tell.

I found this response from both of them rather unwarranted, especially given that

Toomai had already answered the questions in post 327...

I don't see why they aren't getting similar scrutiny from anyone for their actions. Furthermore, I never got the explanation I asked for in posts 332/334. I asked because I truly didn't see a town motivation for why Cabd was asking such open-ended questions, despite his intent being "pretty obvious".

Please, someone enlighten me about why Cabd's questions were necessary, critical or even helpful, and why it was so scummy to call them fluffy AFTER they'd been answered. Because my understanding of the questions is as follows:

"Do you think the game is currently not in serious mode?"
I don't see how an answer here would have been alignment-indicative. Toomai's vote came all the way back in post 278, and he made it quite clear in post 323 that his vote was "trying to steer the game towards serious mode." Toomai didn't think it was "serious mode" at the time of the actions that Cabd is calling into question, so the question seems pointless. How would his present stance (at the time of Cabd's question) reveal anything new about Toomai's actions? Toomai's answer makes sense and seems pretty null to me:

It's a spectrum; I don't think I can define it by pointing to specific posts. Page 10 was pretty serious mode, but when reinoe made his entrance on late 11 it regressed back into silly mode. I'm not sure what the town motivation for doing so would be, because it just creates a distraction.

"If it is, what post do you think kicked off serious mode?"
This just seems plain fluffy. Toomai could have pulled any post between point A (his vote) and point B (Cabd's questions) to answer this, and wouldn't even have to answer this if he just said 'no' to the first question. Again, I don't see how an answer here would have been alignment-indicative of Toomai's motivations or his actions. Any answer is based entirely on individual interpretation. It's unlikely that any two people here would point to the same post as the starting point of "serious mode", so how could Toomai's answer bring about any new information?

---------------------------------------------------

Also, I don't understand why reinoe felt the need to jump in the way he did. What motivation would he have to jump to Cabd's defense and threaten me with associative tells? I don't understand it nor do I see a town motivation for it... The only thing I see that makes any sense is that Cabd's questions were questioning Toomai's reasons for voting reinoe (except they weren't really), so reinoe thought it best to lash at someone criticizing the questions as fluff (which they were)?

This post is long overdue, but I wanted to get it out there because this was something that has hooked my brain and won't let go.

[Izariael]

VOTE: reinoe

It it comes down to lynching MVP or reinoe, I would much rather lynch reinoe. Not only do I think he's scummy, but I've already reached my quota of off-topic filler from him... I really won't feel a loss if he flips town.

[Izariael]

Also, Iz, you are scum reading my slot for the same reason that everyone else is right?

No, I don't believe I am... I think the common sentiments toward you are "scummy for beetlejuicing and for the Ki-Gi "weird" thing"...? My scumread on you isn't based on either of those events.

My reasons I find you scummy:

#1)

I just plain didn't like your first 2 posts for petty reasons.

#2)

I didn't care for how you discreetly slid onto the Cabd wagon in 42. Even that early in the game, I don't like when no reasons are stated for a vote. I called out T S O on the very thing early in the game.

#3)

I also don't like how you went from voting Cabd to town-reading him in post 519, without ever giving a reason for your townread on him.

#4)

Between 519 and 521 you're townreading the two people currently peaking my scum list; Cabd with no stated reason, and reinoe for the only reason I can see:

I think Reinoe is clearly trolling and even if he's not then I don't really suspect him

#5)

This sequence of events:
A) 856 You unvote MVP when reinoe pushed him to L-1 saying "you're not ready for a claim from MVP yet."
B) 879 You vote reinoe

I am not voting you because of meta Reinoe. I am voting you because your votes suck and I want to see what happens. I don't find it merely coincidental that most rveryone ignored my vote but for your omgus and Toonami.

You mean his vote on the MVP wagon you were just a part of?

You still have not explained your vote on MVP. What was so bad in those two pages?

I do like that you asked him to explain his reasoning, but the fact that you were just voting for MVP and then telling reinoe that his vote on MVP sucks rubs me the wrong way.
C) 927 You were pushing me to vote onto the reinoe wagon. Which, between him and MVP, was my choice regardless, but this is inconsistent with your actions afterward
D) 980 You're suddenly "50/50" on reinoe, and from the discussion 927 and 980 this makes absolutely no sense to me. At all. Then you go and do something even more ridiculous and re-vote MVP:

So I'm moving my vote back to its rightful place.

vote:MVP

But wait? This vote pushes him back to L-1? Well isn't that convenient for you?

#6)

983 While I think questioning the motives behind hammering is a good practice, it's hysterically laughable that you had the audacity to do so just moments after voting MVP to L-1.

[Izariael]

I like how Iz is pretending we aren't a hydra. but I'll explain everything away here in a min.

Feel free to put your heads together and try to make magic out of poop.

[Izariael]

#1)

lo siento? I can't fathom how you, AP or Cep would think 38 was defensive. I think its pretty obvious that I'm fucking around here. Like why the fuck would I, as scum, be pissed off or w/e that AP was voting my main and not my hydra?

Congratulations, you focused on the one sentence of those two posts that I didn't have a problem with.

#2)

It was p2. Obviously a RVS from my other head. I think its really silly to find early RVS votes with no reason scummy. Did you ever call out Toon for his vote with no reason?

I don't think your votes were the same, therefore I didn't evaluate them with the same conclusion. Toomai's vote seemed RVS because he was playing off of Cabd's words. I found it to be amusing wordplay, nothing more, and it wasn't a vote that concerned me. Your vote, however, pushed a wagon without given reason for why you were joining. If you're pushing a wagon, I want to know a reason for why you're pushing. Is it just pressure to try and get some information? Is it intent to lynch? That's pertinent. That's not RVS in my opinion.

#3)

and I think scum are piggybacking on your awful argument

but again he was obviously RVSing on p2. Like srs, the idea that he should have a reason to suspect Cabd on p2 is fucking ludicrous.

The sentiment of #3 wasn't that he should have had a reason for the vote on page 2 (because that was point #2). The point was that there's a transition in your attitude toward Cabd that went from "Hey I'm jumping on this wagon! Giddy up!" to "ya I think you're town, not gonna be voting for you" with nothing in-between that would show why your opinion on Cabd was changing.

#4)

Our hydra is scummy for town reading your biggest scum reads?!? I pray to Allah you are scum 'cause if you are town and think this is a viable scumtell then I don't know what to think.

You don't think there's any possible scum motivation for subtly townreading fellow scum? When you don't give reasons for your reads it makes it a hard pill to swallow.

#5) This sequence of events:
A) 856 You unvote MVP when reinoe pushed him to L-1 saying "you're not ready for a claim from MVP yet."
B) 879 You vote reinoe

Yeah just keep ignoring that we are a hydra.

I think MVP is scum. My other head doesn't find MVP as scummy as I do. My other head thinks Ren is pretty scummy. I don't think that Ren is all that scummy. Yeah, its hydra dis, its going to happen. If you want to argue that hydra dis is scummy then be my guest but unless you are claiming that you are a new player (which I doubt you are) then you should know that hydra dis is both common and seen as scummy. So are you saying that hydra dis is scummy?

If you want this to be read as hydra discord and not inconsistency, then start signing your damn posts. I'm not going to go through this entire game trying to figure out if it was head A or head B that said this and did that. If you want clarity, then be clear. Sign your damn posts.

#6)

"Its a good practice but its scummy that did it right after voting him."



This makes no sense whatsoever.

All of MVP is experienced enough to know what to do at l-1. I guess I can't really explain it well but I think that Mir immediately threatening to hammer (implied) with 4 days to dl when MVP isn't his #1 suspect just seems odd to me.

You're welcome to not see sense in that conclusion, but I do. You voted MVP, then turned on someone saying the equivalent of "intent to hammer" and act as though their vote is completely unexpected, unfounded and/or unjustified, but your vote pushing it to L-1 certainly shouldn't be questioned? Really? Mirhawk has already said he'd be willing to vote MVP, so stating intent to hammer when MVP's at L-1 isn't alignment-indicative.

[Izariael]

If you don't want to sign your posts, then you don't get the privilege of gawking for being held accountable for the actions of another head. Don't put the burden of being a hydra on other players to decipher. I didn't join this game as a hydra; you did. Take responsibility for it.

[Izariael]

If you don't want to sign your posts, then you don't get the privilege of gawking for being held accountable for the actions of another head. Don't put the burden of being a hydra on other players to decipher. I didn't join this game as a hydra; you did. Take responsibility for it.

Why do you seem so upset here? I mean you put a case on me that revolved heavily upon (unknown to you) two heads doing two different things. I told you that this was wrong. So what?

Your chance at mislynching me is gone and you are upset?

If its really that big of deal I have no problem with signing my posts but I still don't think there's any reason to be upset here.

~

I didn't/don't think you're a possible lynch for today, so this statement is silly.

I do, however, think you're scummy and would lynch you if I thought it were possible. Maybe on day 2, if I survive the night. Something to look forward to for both of us. It'll be fun.

And yes, my tone was snippy, because you tried to strawman pretty much everything I said by saying "oh but we're a hydra, so these actions that seem inconsistent are actually just us doing different things and it should have been obvious to you because we're a hydra." I'm sorry, but that shit doesn't fly for me. Don't make

me

the culprit because

you

are too lazy or don't care enough to sign your posts. If you want it to be obvious that there's two heads doing two different things, then make it obvious. Up until now, I didn't even think the other head was active. I thought it was just Nero. In fact, I still don't have a name to put to it, just a symbol, so this could still be Nero for all I know.

[Izariael]

I'm not seeing much productivity coming out of this conversation, so this will be my last post on the topic. My goal here hasn't been to push for your mislynch, it was to explain why I've found you to be scummy. It was a reply to this:

Also, Iz, you are scum reading my slot for the same reason that everyone else is right?

The answer to that question was no. I could have just said "no," but I've instead posted my thoughts so you could see why I disagreed with your statement. So why did you take my reply to the nth extreme:

Your chance at mislynching me is gone and you are upset?

Also, you've countered my reads by saying that you're a hydra doing different things in different directions for different reasons, or whatever other hydra discord you want to include. Fine, I get it, I'm not saying it's impossible. It's something that I will consider when evaluating your previous actions and from here on. However, I don't agree with your vote on MVP and I still think you are among the most likely to be scum.

You know what would be a big help for me? If you could go through your ISO and point out what posts were head A and what posts were head B. That'd be great please and thank you.

How many games have you played here? You should really look at RVS wagons, dude. I guess I'm bias here since I know we have a town pm.

I wasn't aware that my level of experience at mafiascum would dictate how I have to evaluate your vote. I'll make a mental note of that for future games. [/sarcasm]

#4)

Our hydra is scummy for town reading your biggest scum reads?!?

I pray to Allah you are scum 'cause if you are town and think this is a viable scumtell then I don't know what to think.

You don't think there's any possible scum motivation for subtly townreading fellow scum? When you don't give reasons for your reads it makes it a hard pill to swallow.

*throws hands up* WTF is this shit? "you need to admit there's scum motivation in this." "scum motivation in that."

There's scum motivation in pretty much everything since this game is basically WIFOM guesswork with luck thrown in. If you can imagine it, scum have done it before.

Though other than the fact that you think I'm scum what it makes it more likely that I'm a scumbuddy then town misreading them?

And that this is ignoring the fact that this is unflipped associative which is pretty cray cray to be pushing.

So you admit it could be scummy, but imply that I'm dumb town for thinking it could be scummy? I apologize for sometimes taking the road less traveled.

As for the associative, I admit it's very weak when doing unflipped guesswork, but I wasn't really planning on pushing for your lynch until Cabd or reinoe flipped. You asked me a question and I answered it.

[Izariael]

For the record, I don't care at all for reinoe's posts 920/921. It's Day One. Statistically, it's very likely that townies' scumreads are wrong. Having someone else's scumread on your wagon is not indicative of your alignment. These posts looked like he was fishing for easy towncred by pointing out that other peoples' scumreads are on his wagon.

Furthermore, even if the names pointed out

are

scum, it's still possible that scum would vote one another when the threat of lynch is low to try to distance themselves, but that's something that has to be considered after flip.

[Izariael]

Sunglasses is not Nero. I forget to sign a lot.

= A
= B

I don't care about names, so this I can follow. Thumbs

[Izariael]

DJ, your defense to the points I like seems to be more than hydra dis-- it looks to me like "my hydra partner and I have no communication whatsoever to the point where they move my votes without consulting me".

Seeing as the whole point of a hydra is to have someone to bounce scumreads off who you know is town, and having seen my own communication levels in town and scum hydras, I am not a fan. It's worth noting that I didn't even think both of your heads were posting, so obviously, I cannot tell you apart. You could easily be making up a second head entirely to explain away scummy behavior from my perspective (but I doubt this is the case).

Your move back to MVP as though you never rethought it at all doesn't smell right to me.

I agree with every sentence of this post.

[Izariael]

reinoe, do you consider your scum meta to be consistent?

I didn't really want to broach this subject because "self-meta", but since you asked...I always play the same way as scum. I occasionally play that way as town so that it doesn't become a reliable tell. This is wiki confirmable.

I find this to be a silly question and a silly answer. Self-meta indicates self-awareness. If you're self-aware of your scum meta

then you would know ways to avoid it to curb meta suspicions.

Apparently it's beyond players to evolve and adapt their scum meta though. Also: "Wiki confirmable"..? Please. Let me go write a wiki that implies my behavior should never be questioned, then I can self-meta too.

Bob, does reinoe's answer remove any possibility of him being scum? I don't see it being alignment-indicative.

[Izariael]

However, I don't agree with your vote on MVP

What so townie about MVP? (we aren't discussing his claim here.)

I don't know where you're getting that I called MVP townie, because I'm pretty sure I've never said that. Feel free to quote me if I'm mistaken. I do remember saying that I didn't understand why so many people were choosing to vote for him over reinoe. I definitely didn't see MVP as top 5 scummies, so the wagon made no sense to me, especially since all of the reasons I saw for votes from the people on it was "notscience is lurking - that's his scum meta"

Like... WTF? That's such a bullshit read and it was a big red X for everyone who used it as a reason to vote him IMO.

Maybe if MVP had been signing their posts *cough* then the lurking claim wouldn't have taken off, but even still, the best you can come up with is one head's meta from a 3-head hydra? Why not try actually evaluating something they did in the game and pushing a read from that. I know it's hard but if we use the power of friendship we can do it.
-----------------------------------------------------
As for the rest of your post, I don't really plan to reply to it because you continue to misconstrue my statements and this conversation isn't going anywhere.

[Izariael]

reinoe, was there a point to post 1142 beyond you once again stating that your scum meta never changes? The fact that

you seem to know exactly what is seen as your scum meta

(you called it 100% verifiable [1122]) makes it that much harder for me to believe that you'd never deviate from it to get easy towncred.

Especially

having played with several of these players previously as scum.

If the point of your post was to point out that you're being "Completely Ridiculous" to fit in with the theme/title of the game, then I don't really know what to think. If you're town intentionally taking the piss, then I doubt that I could

not

vote you, because if I were in final 3 LyLo with you and one other (which I doubt I'll live that long sadly...) I would have to vote you for having made yourself impossible to read. There's only oh-so-much "oh I'm just trolling." "Oh I'm just being playful town" "Oh I'm not serious" that I can allow to slip by before it becomes a hindrance and bogs me down. And that quota was reached a while back now.

[Izariael]

I'll go ahead and state intent to hammer. I'll be going through Bob's ISO when I get home tonight, but up until now I've had him on the scummier side of null. It irks me that my top 3 scummies are on this wagon, but being Day 1 my scumreads are probably wrong anyway

[Izariael]

I'll go ahead and state intent to hammer. I'll be going through Bob's ISO when I get home tonight, but up until now I've had him on the scummier side of null. It irks me that my top 3 scummies are on this wagon, but being Day 1 my scumreads are probably wrong anyway

Actually, on second thought, I'm not going to vote Bob. I think it's scum jumping on a wagon to build momentum, and I'm not taking that bait.

Well here's how I sit atm. My top 3 scummies are

reinoe, Cabd and [Depraved Justice].

My next 3 would be Bob, Toomai and Mirhawk, but they're all more null than anything.

VOTE: Bicephalous Bob

Votecount 1.35

reinoe [L-3] - Bicephalous Bob, Toomai, T S O, Izariael, Depraved Justice

Bicephalous Bob [L-4] - AngryPidgeon, MVP, Cephrir, reinoe

Toomai [L-6] - Mirhawk, Aeronaut

MVP [L-6] - TheWayItEnds, Aegor

T S O [L-7] - Ki-Gi

Not Voting [1] - Cabd

With 15 alive, it takes

8

to lynch. The day will end in (expired on 2014-08-30 21:00:00)

There's something I forgot take into account when I considered my vote on Bob.

VOTE: toomai

VOTE: depraved justice

VOTE: bob

Decision made.

VOTE: Bob

VOTE: bicephalous bob

Votecount 1.39

Bicephalous Bob [L-2]

- AngryPidgeon, MVP, Toomai,

Cabd, Depraved Justice, reinoe

Toomai [L-4] - Mirhawk, Aeronaut, Aegor, Bicephalous Bob

Depraved Justice [L-6] - Cephrir, T S O

T S O [L-7] - Ki-Gi

MVP [L-7] - TheWayItEnds

reinoe [L-7] - Izariael

Not Voting [0] -

With 15 alive, it takes

8

to lynch. The day will end in (expired on 2014-08-30 21:00:00)

I don't like reinoe's vote jumping, and the fact that reinoe and DJ voted each other the way the did seems like distancing ploys:

Ok.

VOTE: Reinoe

Let's see what happens.

VOTE: depraved justice

I also don't like the fact that my top three scumreads all jump onto Bob's wagon within a handful of posts. There's way too much momentum going on this Bob wagon from them... I'm not comfortable with it.

[Izariael]

So are unflipped day 1 associative tells something you do care about or you don't care about?

I think they're rather weak tells, but that doesn't stop me from looking at them.

[Izariael]

So are unflipped day 1 associative tells something you do care about or you don't care about?

I think they're rather weak tells, but that doesn't stop me from looking at them.

You're gonna have to do a better job walking back the hypocrisy of 1241 than this.

Where's the hypocrisy? I don't remember saying that I never use unflipped associative tells. I do remember saying I find them to be weak at best.

[Izariael]

For the record, I don't care at all for reinoe's posts 920/921. It's Day One. Statistically, it's very likely that townies' scumreads are wrong. Having someone else's scumread on your wagon is not indicative of your alignment. These posts looked like he was fishing for easy towncred by pointing out that other peoples' scumreads are on his wagon.

Furthermore, even if the names pointed out

are

scum, it's still possible that scum would vote one another when the threat of lynch is low to try to distance themselves,

but that's something that has to be considered after flip.

So are unflipped day 1 associative tells something you do care about or you don't care about?

Ladies and gents, I implore you to observe:

the reinoe strawman.

My post here clearly stated that I wasn't holding any weight to the possible unflipped associative tells.

The purpose of this post was pointing out that reinoe was using other peoples' opinions on Depraved Justice and T S O to try and get easy towncred by saying "look, they're on my wagon! I must be inno because you think they're scummy!"

But reinoe chose not to refute my reasoning and instead focused on calling my argument hypocritical by saying I was going against my own opinion on unflipped associatives. Then shoots an FOS at me. [1244]

So are unflipped day 1 associative tells something you do care about or you don't care about?

I think they're rather weak tells, but that doesn't stop me from looking at them.

You're gonna have to do a better job walking back the hypocrisy of 1241 than this.

[Izariael]

My post here clearly stated that I wasn't holding any weight to the possible unflipped associative tells.

If unflipped associative tells hold no weight then why does it matter who's on the Bicephalous Wagon?

These two situations have nothing in common, and you're once again blatantly strawmanning me.

I held no value to the associative tell of post 1010. I've never once said I DON'T hold value to them, I've only said I DIDN'T hold value to the tell in that situation. I didn't need to. Your actions in posts 920/921 were scummy enough that I didn't bother looking at the unflipped associatives behind it.

[Izariael]

Izarael: Eww my scumreads are on the Bicephalous wagon and that makes me feel icky!

Again, strawman.

What makes me feel "icky" isn't the fact that my scumreads are on the wagon, it's HOW you guys jumped on the wagon. Bob's not exactly giving me reason to think he's town, but jumping him from L-5 to L-2 that suddenly is cause for concern in my opinion. I'm evaluated the how/why, and I don't like what I saw.

[Izariael]

So if reinoe points out possible associative tells you hold no value to them. If you bring up associative tells they're the alpha and omega. Thanks for accidentally confessing to your hypocrisy then.

God, can't people see how this guy is scum?

AND AGAIN, STRAWMAN ALERT.

Also, I don't understand why reinoe felt the need to jump in the way he did. What motivation would he have to jump to Cabd's defense and threaten me with associative tells? I don't understand it nor do I see a town motivation for it...

I never questioned the

validity

of your associative tell, I questioned the

motivations

for it.

[Izariael]

If I'm shooting bad town then I rather shoot TSO as you actually offer productivity.
~

Ladies and gents, I implore you to observe:

the reinoe strawman.

These two situations have nothing in common, and you're once again blatantly strawmanning me.

Again, strawman.

AND AGAIN, STRAWMAN ALERT.

Sorry, but you'll have to forgive my guffaw at this "productivity" reinoe contributes. If you're town vig as you claim to be, you should be shooting reinoe. Scum or anti-town, it's a pro-town shot either way.

[Izariael]

Why would "suddenly" be caused for concern? You realize there's a deadline approaching right? Would you prefer a deadline lynch? Maybe you should go into the "how and why" more because I was already suspicious of Bicephalous and you already admitted he's not a town read for you. Or you could look at the number of players who are on or going on V/LA. Your concerns seem feigned.

Am I not allowed to step back and evaluate before hammering a slot?

Also, I don't understand why reinoe felt the need to jump in the way he did. What motivation would he have to jump to Cabd's defense and threaten me with associative tells? I don't understand it nor do I see a town motivation for it...

I never questioned the

validity

of your associative tell, I questioned the

motivations

for it.

That's some clever handwaving. We weren't talking about post 932. That whole situation has already been discussed and it came about because you jumped into the middle of one player interrogating another player. Not sure why you're bringing up that issue again.

If you weren't talking about post 932, then what were you referring to?

So if reinoe points out possible associative tells you hold no value to them. If you bring up associative tells they're the alpha and omega. Thanks for accidentally confessing to your hypocrisy then.

932 is the only time I've brought your unflipped associatives under scrutiny. I don't see how you could have been referring to anything else I've said.

[Izariael]

If you think "productivity" is of any relevance to this game then TSO and Toomai (and Bicephalous Bob) are vastly superior shots as they haven't done anything all game.

I'm really done talking to you at this point. You spent most of your first half this game taking care to shut T S O down and making sure his statements were lost in the fray, and now you're saying he hasn't done anything all game. I haven't told you my stance on Toomai, so you're making assumptions that you know what I think of him at this point. Bob is already on the chopping block, and his actions aren't nearly as anti-town as yours have been.

Also, I wasn't the one who brought productivity into the picture. That was DJ, who has made a town vig claim, saying that productivity was a factor of

his decision

on who to shoot. If I were town vig, I would not be shooting with the same criteria that he is.

[Izariael]

If you think "productivity" is of any relevance to this game then TSO and Toomai (and Bicephalous Bob) are vastly superior shots as they haven't done anything all game.

I'm really done talking to you at this point. You spent most of your first half this game taking care to shut T S O down and making sure his statements were lost in the fray, and now you're saying he hasn't done anything all game.

He didn't do shit before I came into the game. I grilled him hard. I deliberately avoided him. He continued to not do shit all game. Also as I demonstrated, albeit casually, a person can do multiple things in one post.

I wouldn't say he's done nothing all game, but clearly we disagree. I don't see T S O's play as lurky, and I would much rather kill off someone who is anti-town than someone who is leaning town.
I'm curious on what your definition of "deliberately avoided" is. Is it the many spam posts after your interaction? Or is it 921 where you're pointing attention to him once again, but directing the question to another player? Or is it the mostly-reactive play you've been showing later?

I haven't told you my stance on Toomai, so you're making assumptions that you know what I think of him at this point. Bob is already on the chopping block, and his actions aren't nearly as anti-town as yours have been.

You've been soft-defending Toomai all game. You do realize I ISO people right?

I think we all know where you stand on Toomai: he's undeserving of any scrutiny.

Your interactions with Toomai will only matter if Toomai flips scum. Why are you so worried about it otherwise?

I'm not worried about it because there is no connection. I'm not sure where in that post you read that I was concerned about my interactions with Toomai, because I wasn't.

Soft-defending all game? You mean the two posts where I criticized Cabd's questions against him? [329/932] You can feel free to call it soft-defending Toomai, but surprisingly I was just pointing out that they were pointless questions to ask. It didn't matter to me who the questions had been directed to. If Cabd had asked the same questions to you I would have had the same reaction.

Or did you mean the one time I said that his OPENING VOTE seemed genuinely random because of the wordplay? 999 I didn't find Toomai's vote alignment-indicative. Enough said.

Please, speak for everybody again and tell me again about how I've made clear my defensive, non-analytical stance on Toomai...

Well here's how I sit atm. My top 3 scummies are reinoe, Cabd and yourself. My next 3 would be Bob,

Toomai

and Mirhawk, but they're all more null than anything.

Just because I haven't grilled him with questions doesn't mean I don't find him suspect. It just means I've had bigger fish to fry and not enough time to do it.

[Izariael]

I don't understand why there is discussion about vigging someone who isn't reinoe.

QFT

[Izariael]

bob/agror/MVP team?

calling it now

Thank goodness you took the time to read through the game before drawing some conclusions...

[Izariael]

Careful guys, we got a loose cannon coming in hot.

[Izariael]

reinoe is antitown, and has about an average chance of being scum; as such he should die.

QFT. Sums it up.

[Izariael]

DJ seems like an odd night kill choice. His role is rather anti-town unless his hit-list had scum on it...

[Izariael]

I don't really have an issue with continuing my vote from DP1. I haven't seen anything that has wavered my scumread on reinoe during NP re-read...

VOTE: reinoe

[Izariael]

listed below

So yeah, like, this is actually a pretty good post?

No, it's really not. I'd threaten you with unflipped associative tells for this, but I'm not reinoe.

The only defence he's offered to my accusation is "lol tso is bad". The only defence anyone else has offered is bullshit examples or noncommitment. Vote reinoe or explain why you're not doing it, and it better be damn good.

What do you mean "defense"? Are you referring to the Information Instead of Analysis that you offered way back when that relied on hyperbole and exaggeration?

I'm not going into a wall war with you when town enthusiasm was already on the brink.

What you're calling IIoA was a better case than you've made against him. I don't think analysis was even needed because the shit you were doing was so inherently scummy. You've been pulling a WIFOM-y "too trolly to be scum" bullshit gambit, and so while I didn't agree with all of T S O's points in that post (I agree with most,) I do think it was very valid.

You might be town, but you're scummy enough that I'll take the chances of you flipping scum.

But I realise that I'm not going to be able to air my views on reinoe until everyone's willing to listen, so I'm going to actually look at other people now.

And you never did this. Almost 800 posts later and you haven't done this.

And yet when I point out that you haven't done this you say I'm "spamming the thread so that nobody can see your defense".

So by your own rationale, you must be scum.

Are you going somewhere with those questions or are did you just take a template and roll a random number to fill in the player names?

Yes I'm going somewhere with these questions. I'll elaborate when I get and receive answers.

AP called you out on some fluffy questions you asked in 755, and yet you never did this.

Almost 700 posts later, surely you must be scum for not doing this?

Broken promise = scum! by your own rationale. It's a shit read and you know it. Stop shitting down his throat with this dumb read every time he posts.

I'll admit Bob cheers me up and that's another reason to keep him but the quality of people voting him, like MVP and Cephrir, who both are in my top 3 scumreads, makes it pretty obvious this wagon is bullshit. Another reason could be the fact that Bob's explanation is legit.

MVP's jump was also atrocious.

Where's your Cephrir push?

Can't push with no support. MVP-scum had support. Cephrir-scum didn't. This is basic knowledge. Stop grasping at straws.

Ceph's lynch preferences: DJ>Bob>MVP>reinoe

This specifically is why MVP and reinoe deserve death.

Why are you relying on your scumread's scumreads? Makes no fucking sense.

This is a piece of analysis pretty unique to me where I look at a scumread's scumreads, take the 3rd and 4th person, and presume that's where their scumbuddies are because it's easy for scum to put them there but just not push them.

His reasoning made sense to me. I've seen it work before. Do I put any weight in it? No, but I don't have to. You're scummy enough to merit a lynch without it.

unvote
vote: dj

Hey look, now DJ is a scumread and Cephrir is not!

So Cephrir is no longer a scumread because T S O didn't vote him?

What the crap kind of logic is that? You only have one vote at a time. Does that mean we can only have one scumread at a time?

There was like no support for a Cephrir lynch; so a vote for him would have been useless

.

I still don't agree with Toomai or Bob lynches, I still think we should lynch the shit out of {reinoe, Cephrir, MVP}.

And now DJ is not a scumread but Cephrir is again!

But it doesn't really matter because TSO isn't pushing or pressuring his scumreads outside of myself.

Just because he'd rather lynch 3 people ahead of DJ doesn't mean he was no longer scumreading him. DJ had claimed town vig, but you seem to be completely ignoring that in context. Look at post 1283 and tell me T S O wasn't scumreading DJ. I dare you.

But it's okay reinoe, you can threaten me with unflipped associative reads again, or strawman me again as you love to do

[Izariael]

Might just be my new opinion but tso seems pretty town to me.

You're not the only one.

@T S O:

You keep saying you've been completely discredited, but that's not really the case. I, for one, still give a shit about what you have to say. You're not really doing yourself or town any favors by voting for yourself though, and it's getting to be AtE at this point. Cut the crap and vote reinoe so we can get this scum lynched please. Stop making me question my townread on you by your own actions...

[Izariael]

izar might be scum....

Says the one who swooped into a game and hammered Bob without having read the whole thing. Sorry for not being intimidated by this.

[Izariael]

Who is guy in freezer and why do you have MVP as town?
Why do you have me in leaning town?

GIF is part of the MVP hydra... but his partners aren't posting so he's been posting out-of-hydra lately

[Izariael]

Not the right question. Why does he have dead people on there is a better question.

GiF why did you put dead people on your list?

TWIE town vibe just got that much stronger. I didn't even think to comment on that tidbit on first glance. I'm now intrigued as well... Wasn't Bob in MVP's scum team pool?

[Izariael]

Seriously? They have the strikeout tag applied for a reason, people.

Why have them listed as "P sure are town" and not under a separate "confirmed town" category? It makes it sound like he's accrediting himself for townreading them.

[Izariael]

He never stated that it was from hydra convo, but I can see that it could be implied. And this doesn't match the MVP reads from DP1, so there's that.

[Izariael]

Fun fact: even if owls did eat pie i bet it wouldn't be key lime

Fun fact: i bet owls would eat cherry pie

bears wouldn't though

I mean, I won't speak for all owls, since I mean.... I'm not an owl... but from what I've observed, they're partial to peach pie. Open-faced... with toasted almond slices and whipped cream.

[Izariael]

unvote
vote: dj

Hey look, now DJ is a scumread and Cephrir is not!

So Cephrir is no longer a scumread because T S O didn't vote him? What the crap kind of logic is that? You only have one vote at a time. Does that mean we can only have one scumread at a time? There was like no support for a Cephrir lynch; so a vote for him would have been useless.

I think you are misinterpreting Reinoe's post here. I think he was making an observation about TSO's reads and not saying anything about his own. Back off of your tunnel a little bit, Iz : P.

I'm not sure I'm understanding? reinoe's post was commenting on T S O's flipflopping on his Cephrir read, and I was pointing out why it was a logical fallacy. My comment was from the perspective of T S O reads, not reinoe's.

You're right about the tunnel though. I've been a bit over-focused on reinoe as of late, but it irks me that the Day 1 reinoe wagon got disbanded in favor of the Bob mislynch wagon. I don't get what reinoe has done that people think is so townie of him. I see nothing redeeming or productive from him. Nothing.

My plan for Day 2 is to re-read Toomai, Aegor & Ki-Gi/Ika in particular, then go back to others. Those three have been the most fence-sitting reads for me so far through, so I want to have something more conclusive than null.

[Izariael]

Those three have been the most fence-sitting reads for me so far through

the game

, so I want to have something more conclusive than null.

EBWOP

[Izariael]

I do think its a valid point still that TSO voted for DJ and then shortly after didn't have them as scum, not sure he addressed that.

When did T S O not have DJ as scum? He was voting for DJ until the end of day, and his 1283 listed DJ has scum..?

[Izariael]

So, I don't agree entirely with T S O's scumpool (MVP, Cephrir, reinoe), but since I've gone back and looked at the voting I have to say that I see his comments from Day 1 being very plausible.

I'll admit Bob cheers me up and that's another reason to keep him but the quality of people voting him, like MVP and Cephrir, who both are in my top 3 scumreads, makes it pretty obvious this wagon is bullshit. Another reason could be the fact that Bob's explanation is legit.

MVP's jump was also atrocious.

Votecount 1.34

MVP

[L-2] - TheWayItEnds, Cabd,

Cephrir

, AngryPidgeon, Aegor,

reinoe

reinoe [L-3] -

Bicephalous Bob

, Toomai, T S O, Izariael,

Depraved Justice

Toomai [L-6] - Mirhawk, Aeronaut

T S O [L-7] - Ki-Gi

Mirhawk [L-7] -

MVP

Not Voting [0] -[/area]

This votecount was just after MVP had claimed town even-night gunsmith. Over the next few posts, the MVP wagon disbanded, and somehow instead of pressuring reinoe more, the pressure got diverted to elsewhere.

No new votes for reinoe during this time aside from DJ (who flipped town), so he was never pressured enough for a hardclaim.

T S O also commented that he didn't like the flourishing Bob wagon because his scumreads (MVP/Cephrir) were a part of it, as mentioned above

Votecount 1.38

reinoe [L-3] -

Bicephalous Bob

, Toomai, T S O, Izariael,

Depraved Justice

Toomai [L-4] - Mirhawk, Aeronaut,

reinoe

, Aegor

Bicephalous Bob

[L-5] - AngryPidgeon,

MVP

,

Cephrir

MVP

[L-6] - TheWayItEnds

T S O [L-7] - Ki-Gi

Not Voting [1] - Cabd

[/color]

This is the post that I find most interesting. of the 7 people on the MVP wagon, only one (DJ - conf. town) moved to reinoe's wagon. Another, TWIE, stayed voted for MVP. reinoe wouldn't vote for himself. The other 4 people are the ones that I find interesting from this though.

I would like to hear from them to know why they didn't feel like pressuring reinoe: AP, Aegor, Cabd and Cephrir

Votecount 1.39

Bicephalous Bob

[L-2] - AngryPidgeon,

MVP

, Toomai, Cabd,

Depraved Justice

,

reinoe

Toomai [L-4] - Mirhawk, Aeronaut, Aegor,

Bicephalous Bob

Depraved Justice

[L-6] -

Cephrir

, T S O

T S O [L-7] - Ki-Gi

MVP [L-7] - TheWayItEnds

reinoe [L-7] - Izariael

Not Voting [0] -

[/color]

In a span of about 100 posts we went from the Bob wagon starting to reaching L-2. I don't think it's coincidence that many of the same names are on this wagon, and the fact that it completely derailed the reinoe wagon is something I find equally alarming.

Votecount 1.44

Bicephalous Bob

[LYNCH] - AngryPidgeon,

MVP

, Toomai, Cabd,

reinoe

,

Cephrir

,

Depraved Justice

, ika

Toomai [L-5] - Mirhawk, Aeronaut, Aegor

MVP [L-6] - TheWayItEnds,

Bicephalous Bob

reinoe [L-7] - Izariael

Depraved Justice

[L-7] - T S O

Not Voting [0] -

MVP's wagon at L-1: TheWayItEnds,

Cabd

,

Cephrir

,

AngryPidgeon

, Aegor,

reinoe

,

Depraved Justice

Bob's wagon at lynch:

AngryPidgeon

, MVP, Toomai,

Cabd

,

reinoe

,

Cephrir

,

Depraved Justice

, ika
players on both:

AngryPidgeon, Cabd, reinoe, Cephrir,

Depraved Justice

Based on what I've seen here, I think I'll be starting ISOs of these 4 people: AP; Aegor; Cabd; Cephrir. Cabd's already been high on my scum list, and this doesn't really help any, but I currently have Cephrir and AP as leaning town and Aegor as null, so I might re-evaluate those. reinoe's scummy as fuck and I don't need another re-read of his ISO to tell me that again.

[Izariael]

Based on what I've seen here, I think I'll be starting ISOs of these 4 people: AP; Aegor; Cabd; Cephrir.

Add Toomai to that. I mentioned earlier that I wanted to re-read him, and his vote for Bob here gives me further reason to do so.

[Izariael]

also on the "hes anti-town" i am also known as anti-town so whats the diffrence between me and him in terms of anti-town?

I'm not sure about the difference between you from that perspective yet since you just joined recently, but I think a pretty key difference is that reinoe was in DJ's vig pool targets last night and you weren't. And our vig is now dead.

[Izariael]

Besides, L-3 was plenty of pressure on reinoe.

Was it really though? We never did get a claim out of him as we did with MVP at L-1. The posts he made when his wagon was at L-3 were more of the same useless spam, and 4 votes (Bob, Toomai, DJ, Bob) so I don't think he was acting in a manner that suggests he was really feeling any pressure.

[Izariael]

Hey ap you online? i've got talk i wanna do vaguely enough that only we get bit using pokegym refs because technically public data but would take forever to get the refs. It's something p. important.

"Hey guys, this game doesn't have mafia daytalk so we have to talk here cryptically"

I fail to see a town-motivated reason why you can't just speak in a manner that everyone can understand.

[Izariael]

Hey ap you online? i've got talk i wanna do vaguely enough that only we get bit using pokegym refs because technically public data but would take forever to get the refs. It's something p. important.

Hi my name is Iz and I like forcing cabd to talk about potential setup speculation in such a way that gives scum a roadmap on who knows what.

Hi, I'm Cabd and I like to deliberately break game rules and speak condescendingly to people who object to it.

5. Breadcrumbing and other forms of in-thread communication are fine. Don't do anything weird and encrypted though.

[Izariael]

Besides Cabd, you're being pretty blatantly obvious that you have more information about the set-up speculation than most of us. You're already making yourself a target for mafia, so I don't see what the difference would be to just speak plainly or otherwise.

[Izariael]

I am well aware of this fact. I have my reasons.

They're not town-motivated, whatever they are.

[Izariael]

Well given that there's werewolf games on the site, I'm guessing it's set-up spec from there. My guess would be this game where Cabd had a role that talked about color changes in chat

[Izariael]

Well frankly I don't care if it's unwise or not. I don't see what reason you have to include and implicitly trust AP with this information and yet refrain from disclosing it to everyone else, and you told me to go nuts so I'm going to continue looking for as long as I fancy.

[Izariael]

Let it be. They can't keep it secret indefinitely, and the idea that everyone in the town should be privy to every bit of information is stupid.

Izy, why do you feel you should have this information?

What bothers me about it isn't that there's information I don't know; it's that they're going out of their way to say they have information cryptically. I don't understand why Cabd would have such a level trust with AP where he could tell him this information but no one else, or how that information is doing anything at the moment by being concealed. Neither of them has done anything since their exchange, it's just sitting there uselessly.

Your reaction looks like you're worried about what the information is.

players on both: AngryPidgeon, Cabd, reinoe, Cephrir, Depraved Justice

Needless to say, I'm not overly trusting of either of these two at the moment. The fact that they're blatantly exchanging information and taking care to shroud it doesn't seem kosher. Cabd took the exact same tone in reply as he did in 330, and I thought he was full of shit then as well. But apparently I'm just diving in front of things to ruin their full effect. Clearly Cabd and AP have this whole game figured out.

[Izariael]

. But apparently I'm just diving in front of things to ruin their full effect. Clearly Cabd and AP have this whole game figured out.

No. I do think Cabd is a bit more likely to be town for the reach out though.

And if I'm on the same page, then MVP's claim might be a lie.

So out of that conversation, you don't even know if you each came to the same conclusion? That's productive. Thank goodness you guys spoke in fucking riddles and couldn't tell if you stayed on the same page.

Also, of course MVP's claim might be a lie. This isn't really anything new.

[Izariael]

Yet every player thinks the claim is weak. I would think that inherently implied that nobody is the odd night partner.

I think the fact that he's the only hard-claimed PR right now means that we can't expect results from him tonight. He's too easily blocked by mafia if he is town. However, blocking him means that other power roles that haven't been disclosed get free actions tonight. Scum can either take their chances on finding another PR target or block the sole claimed PR. I think it might be in town's best interest to let him slide for today. I do see the claim as very weak, but it's the only claim we have right now since our vig is dead.

If he's scum, then it'll be even more evident after tonight.

[Izariael]

Out of curiosity, what did you think of the exchange Ceph and I had a page or 2 ago?

I didn't really think much of it. I'm not exactly sure what the conclusion you drew from the exchange was, but it seemed to be about Aero's slot. You guys weren't going out of your way to be needlessly cryptic so it doesn't really irk me in the way Cabd/AP's exchange did.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Cabd, perhaps you'd be willing to answer me this, so I can feel a bit better about your exchange. Why did you choose to specify where the content could be found (pokegym.net), but then get very cryptic about the content being discussed? Would it not have been easier to speak plainly about that set-up speculation, and just not state which off-site source it came from? If people don't know it's off-site meta or where it could be found off-site, then it would be incredibly difficult to stay ahead of you and know where you're going with it. The fact that you and AP may not have even reached the same conclusion makes the first method seem not only more impractical but also more unproductive, and the fact that you're intentionally making extra work for others feels like you're throwing out red herrings rather than actually providing any helpful input.

[Izariael]

Was it really though? We never did get a claim out of him as we did with MVP at L-1. The posts he made when his wagon was at L-3 were more of the same useless spam, and 4 votes (Bob, Toomai, DJ, Bob) so I don't think he was acting in a manner that suggests he was really feeling any pressure.

I'm not sure why this is relevant. Putting pressure on players simply for the sake of garnering claims is bad play. I usually find it more curious when players claim before they're at L-1, so I'm not sure why it's suspicious that he didn't claim at L-3.

I wasn't voting just to get a claim. I was voting to lynch. But a claim would have made me feel a lot better about his wagon disbanding as suddenly as it did. Instead, we got nothing out of it except scummy reinoe flying under the radar.

I didn't/don't think it's suspicious that reinoe didn't claim at L-3. I tend to agree that early claims are unnecessary and I have a knee-jerk reaction to them, but it's somewhat situational. I was noting that his behavior showed he wasn't really feeling any pressure. He was posting the same useless crap as he was posting before the wagon. On second glance though, I don't think that my initial assessment there was an accurate statement though.

Looking back at the votecounts from that timeframe, I think it

strongly suggests

that reinoe was pushing various wagons to try and counter his own and/or push for mislynch, which could be indicative of feeling pressure, and more likely of being scum. Look at reinoe's votes in Toomai's 1434. Post 1080 is where goodmorning posted the votecount with the reinoe wagon in the lead at L-3. Between then and the time that his wagon was completely disbanded, he joined 3 other wagons, each with active momentum.

#1: Bob Wagon (1077; votecount @ 1080)

#2: Toomai Wagon (1098; votecount @ 1121)

Read the two comments that came right before his vote swap. reinoe then changes his vote to the next-biggest wagon.

#3: DJ Wagon (1194; no votecount available to list this)
Ceph and T S O voted DJ at 1177 and 1192 respectively. He gave no reason to voting DJ, but his vote came moments before DJ claimed town vig because of the wagon's momentum... and now DJ is dead. Nero and Titus clearly disagreed on reinoe shot, but the fact remains that reinoe was in that vig pool.

#4: Bob Wagon (1210; votecount @ 1232)
Onto the big wagon. Gotta get that mislynch rolling.

[Izariael]

I just realized that pretty much no-one called out reinoe for declaring V/LA in this game but no others. I know it's usually disingenuous to question someone's V/LA, but I've never seen one explicitly stated to be single-game, and I don't see how taking a V/LA helps to "avoid a flame war" (since if it's really that bad, it'll just happen upon return). I don't like it.

It's been addressed briefly by T S O and Cephrir (1631/1637)

Personally, I think reinoe is avoiding what he sees as a losing argument. But I think he's scum and admit to probable bias. I'm regarding it as null for that reason.

[Izariael]

1538 1723 1735
Does that count as beetlejuice?

linked those for you.

I don't think it does, but I don't think beetlejuice is a strong/reliable tell anyways. I'm assuming you're talking about TWIE here? If so, the question that he asked me in 1730 is one that I am townreading. That townread is outweighs the scumread I would give for beetlejuicing, so I'm not inclined to scumread his "return" to the thread even if it was in fact beetlejuice.

[Izariael]

That townread outweighs

the scumread

EBWOP

[Izariael]

Based on what I've seen here, I think I'll be starting ISOs of these 4 people: AP; Aegor; Cabd; Cephrir.

Did we ever get results from these ISO's? I don't think we did.

Yeah, scumread me for this, you opportunist... I have a full-time job that occasionally interferes with my ability to spend hours each day doing nothing better than reading ISOs. There's still 10.5 days in Day 2. I'll get to it.

[Izariael]

Besides, L-3 was plenty of pressure on reinoe.

Was it really though? We never did get a claim out of him as we did with MVP at L-1.

I claimed in my second post. You're an asshole.

BTW, I may be a cop and I may not be a cop. The important thing is that when scum read this post they're going to be paranoid and maybe have to shoot me tonight just to be safe. K TANX BYE!

I haven't claimed anything.

Amazing. So much WIFOM here. Is this a claim or not? Be clear now reinoe.

[Izariael]

Wait, did I scumread you for that? Why don't you read the post you're getting overly defensive about again...

Sorry, I must be making really brash assumptions since

every time you've pointed out someone (T S O) not following up on something, it's been a scumread

.

I'm going to actually look at other people now.

And yet you're STILL not doing this. You're fucking stalling and not doing anything.

Can we get more votes on TSO please. kthanx.

Hey reinoe you realize that you spamming vote TSO over and over is the same thing as him saying you're scum over and over right?

Like those are functionally identical actions?

I've also called Toomai scum and explained why and called Depraved Justice or MVP scum and explained why. Your attempts to try and discredit the TSO case is noted.

Also TSO has said he would do things that he has not done and nobody is batting and eye.

He's fucking stalling and isn't doing anything this game.

No, I'm bringing it to the town's attention that he's not doing what he says he's going to do because he's not doing shit this game. Of course I'm operating under the assumption that town is reading this game and saying to themselves "wow TSO DID say he was going to do x, y, z and he hasn't done it". Of course I'm operating under the assumption that town wants to move the game forward and when someone doesn't do what they say they're going to do after nearly 48 hrs despite constant posting, that's

a clear indication that they aren't trying to solve the game.

Hey TSO 48 hrs; and still no pro-activity.

Instead you give us that fake frustration bullshit.

Like I don't know

how many more scumtells TSO has to give off

before he gets lynched.

But I realise that I'm not going to be able to air my views on reinoe until everyone's willing to listen, so I'm going to actually look at other people now.

And you never did this. Almost 800 posts later and you haven't done this.

And yet when I point out that you haven't done this you say I'm "spamming the thread so that nobody can see your defense".

And it's funny you find this so scummy, because as I've pointed out before, you've done the exact same thing.

But I realise that I'm not going to be able to air my views on reinoe until everyone's willing to listen, so I'm going to actually look at other people now.

And you never did this. Almost 800 posts later and you haven't done this.

And yet when I point out that you haven't done this you say I'm "spamming the thread so that nobody can see your defense".

So by your own rationale, you must be scum.

Are you going somewhere with those questions or are did you just take a template and roll a random number to fill in the player names?

Yes I'm going somewhere with these questions. I'll elaborate when I get and receive answers.

AP called you out on some fluffy questions you asked in 755, and yet you never did this.

Almost 700 posts later, surely you must be scum for not doing this?

Broken promise = scum! by your own rationale. It's a shit read and you know it. Stop shitting down his throat with this dumb read every time he posts.

So to quote yourself:

Thanks for accidentally confessing to your hypocrisy then.

[Izariael]

This post is incredibly shitty.
Thats not a bid for towncred, thats him being realistic.

Wrong, it's antitown play and he's looking for town players to try and talk him down from that position.
He's talking about selfvoting, there is no way a town PR should even consider not going down swinging.

Because expecting as a claimed even night PR to stay alive 2 additional Day/Nights to attempt to use a PR a second time is realistic right?

But if he's a town PR, even if his role becomes somewhat useless after tonight due to the above, he should still be trying to find and lynch scum on Day 3 instead of advocating an auto-lynch/self-lynch. I agree with Mirhawk here, the play MVP is showing is anti-town. Regardless of his role, if he's still a villager, and going for an autolynch on Day 3 goes against his wincon. If he's scum, then... this is moot.

[Izariael]

ika, I understand you don't care. We have a couple people on my site who play the same way.
In my experience, that kind of play is reserved for people who prefer to look scummy all the time so that it's easier to brush off when they're scum.
I'll generally overlook it if it leads to some good contributions or actions, but I haven't seen all that much from you. No offense.

Pretty much sums up how I've felt about reinoe since day 1. His day 2 seems genuinely scummy though.

[Izariael]

His day 2 seems

more

genuinely scummy though.

EBWOP. I found his day 1 pretty scummy as well. Day 2 moreso.

[Izariael]

Vote: reinoe

VOTE: reinoe

unvote
vote: reinoe

unvote
vote: reinoe

[Izariael]

To iz's big question a few pages back, I'm not answering any of that until tomorrow, or if I'm dead AP can answer it.

I really hope this is an earth-shattering unveiling after all the hype.

[Izariael]

he l-2 is he goes l-1 ill hammer for you guys

VOTE: reinoe

VOTE: reione

I fucking hate both of you.

I, for one, will be glad to be rid of this wretched spawn of Satan regardless of his flip.

[Izariael]

he l-2 is he goes l-1 ill hammer for you guys

VOTE: reinoe

VOTE: reione

This is precisely why I pushed to get reinoe out of this game. He was never going to act in a manner that was in town's best interest. Scum minion OP.

reinoe,

Vanilla Town

, has been lynched Day 2.

Night 2 will end in (expired on 2014-09-06 17:00:00).

#NOR(EGRETS)

[Izariael]

Reinoe was more useful then MVP, DJ, cephrir, TSO, and Toomai.

What made reinoe's selfvote any worse then TSO's?

I thought T S O's selfvote was horsecrap too actually.

Maybe we saw different things from reinoe, but all I saw was a bunch of thread-spamming, trolling and strawmanning. Not traits I find overly useful to be honest. I'm willing to take his non-troll posts a little more seriously now that he's flipped town though. More likely I'm not going to reread his ISO though; not immediately at least. It was annoying to read the first 10 times.

[Izariael]

Hey ika do you have a single townread yet? I think you've almost voted every single person in the game now, dead or alive.

[Izariael]

I'm looking forward to seeing what you conjure from my ISO.

[Izariael]

ok, now im convinced izar is scum

VOTE: izar

that post was full of nothing and uneeded i bet if i isoed i would find even more

You know something else that was "unneeded?"? Your back-to-back hammers. 'Specially that last one.

he l-2 is he goes l-1 ill hammer for you guys

VOTE: reione

That loose cannon.

[Izariael]

he l-2 is he goes l-1 ill hammer for you guys

VOTE: reinoe

VOTE: reione

This is precisely why I pushed to get reinoe out of this game. He was never going to act in a manner that was in town's best interest. Scum minion OP.

reinoe,

Vanilla Town

, has been lynched Day 2.

Night 2 will end in (expired on 2014-09-06 17:00:00).

#NOR(EGRETS)

Hmm... if ika is scum then maybe reinoe did do us a favor by challenging the bluff. Again, it's a whole WIFOM thing of a player acknowledging that they are trying to play scummy/trolly/anti-towny... I just

know

that the one time I don't stop to question it is the one time it's going to be obvscum. With reinoe flipping town, I think ika town is probable, but I haven't found ika scummy for the same reasons I did reinoe so I don't know if I can stick by that read.

------------------------------------------------------

I'm unsure how I feel about Toomai. There's been some stuff I haven't liked from him, but also some stuff I can't see coming from scum.

That kind of "oh this is so terrible" plea never sits well with me. Like... shit happens. Pull up your socks and re-evaluate. That said, it's veeerrrrryyyy consistent with his 681/981 scumreads. BUT, I didn't like those two posts very much. 681 felt like he was dodging accountability for his reads and 981 scum rankings seemed kind of inconsistent with the analysis he provided and looked like he was just throwing the day's wagons at the bottom arbitrarily. BUT, he put Bob at the bottom before any votes had been put on him, so I feel less wary of that than I would if Bob already had a wagon on him at the time.

I did kind of like him for town from 1434 though. Despite our mod's siggy saying effort isn't indicative of alignment, I have a hard time seeing scum go through the time of tracking the votes and making that organized of a post for the sake of pushing the easiest mislynch of the day. Scum-Toomai could have pushed that mislynch in a much easier way. I'm somewhat impartial to his analysis of it in 1448, mostly because it felt more like he was stating the facts rather than really analyzing them; at least the facts were accurate. Didn't feel one way or the other as a result.

So... yeah I'm feeling conflicted.

Overall, it kind of feels like Toomai is being pushed as easy mislynch. I don't see why scum-Toomai would kill off his 4 top scum picks then complain about not having a direction to move in. It feels more genuinely from town that has just watched their 4 top scummies flip town.

------------------------------------------------------

My head hurts. Gonna go lay down and cry myself to sleep.

[Izariael]

Not saying scum don't ever vote-track, but the way he went about presenting that info seemed more troublesome than the situation merited. Unless that's what you were getting at?

[Izariael]

*prod dodge*

Caught up on reading, don't have time for a post.

Still not liking Cabd. Indifferent on Toomai. I think I like Aegor.

[Izariael]

So, here's why I'm having a problem with Cabd:

1) MVP's gunsmith intent:

Also if we get to be alive until D3, we're scanning Cabd N2.

blah blah cabd still probably has a scum role pm

MVP,

Town Even-Night Gunsmith

, has died Night 2.

2) Town-Cabd is still alive? Why?
He spent most of Day 2 hinting that he had exclusive information and set-up spec. Cabd hasn't been a lynch target, so mafia would

have

to NK kill him at some point to dispose of him. So why kill MVP first? The kill makes no sense to me, given that we already knew of MVP's intent to scan Cabd. If Cabd is town, MVP would only be re-asserting Cabd's existing unlynchability, because he'd (almost definitely) have a "no gun" result. If Cabd is scum, then MVP would get a "gun" result and Cabd would get lynched, which is why MVP would be killed before providing results..?

Why would scum keep town-Cabd alive in favor of town-MVP? MVP's role would be all-but-useless in this situation (town investigates town,) and they (MVP) weren't doing much in the way of scum-hunting and pushing lynches and therefore weren't really a threat.

I find it unlikely that the MVP kill was an elaborate attempt to frame Cabd, because NK-ing Cabd on Night 2 and having MVP mislynched on Day 3 for being unable to prove his roleclaim would have been so much easier to do. Keeping town-Cabd alive is just really throwing me through a loop, especially when he claims to have information, and MVP is known to have none.

Cabd, what do you think of the mvp kill?

It means scum didn't pick up on it exactly. And that scumteam is probably mostly noobs making "safe" plays and killing all claimed PRs?

Scum didn't pick up on what? Your claims of having information and set-up spec? How the crap could anyone have missed that? You weren't exactly subtle.


Speaking of information, what information did you have Cabd? You said you'd come out with it on Day 3, and yet you've given us nothing but unsubstantiated speculation. You spoke in riddles yesterday, so now is the time to be direct about it.

I don't think they have a RB. I think it's goon goon goon Bulletproof or something along those lines.

Yesterday you were going on about some big thing you were going to test overnight.

What was that about, where did it go?

It happened, and AP's town.

Is this the startling news I was supposed to bring an extra pair of pants for?

Well there's what I implied you were claiming earlier to ap.

And then there's what you implied you were claiming.

But I feel like one of those claims requires more divulged night info.

Unless I missed it. Which is possible.

I'm not sure what you think i thought you thought i was claiming *deep breath from tongue twister* but

i have nothing else to add at this time.

So you spent all of day 2 revving up with promises to reveal info on day 3, and now that you've survived the night (miraculously as town-Cabd dropping "subtle" hints of having info...) you're not willing to divulge the info?

[Izariael]

I am indifferent about Cabd. What bothers me is that Toomai is still not dead.


Also, the reason for killing MVP is obvious: he is an investigative PR.

an investigative PR that stated his intent to investigate Cabd.

If town-MVP investigates town-Cabd, why would scum bother to stop this? Just kill Cabd Night 2. MVP wouldn't get results. Mislynch MVP for being unable to confirm his safe roleclaim. Done.

[Izariael]

MVP's claim hinged on producing Night 2 results. I feel like the doctor may have protected MVP Night 2 to give them the opportunity to produce those results since MVP was the only claimed PR. Not protecting an investigative roleclaim during their only night to produce results seems like a bad play. If he couldn't produce results when protected, then lynch him day 3.

But if Cabd's crumbing about having information to reveal on day 3 drew away the doctor's protection to Cabd last night, that left MVP open for the kill. Not being the doctor, I can't confirm the doctor's actions here but I think it's a distinct possibility that Cabd drew away the protection from MVP, which got MVP killed, intentionally or otherwise.

I don't want or need a doctor's claim here btw.

[Izariael]

an investigative PR that stated his intent to investigate Cabd.

If town-MVP investigates town-Cabd, why would scum bother to stop this? Just kill Cabd Night 2. MVP wouldn't get results. Mislynch MVP for being unable to confirm his safe roleclaim. Done.

Several issues:
1) MVP would not be mislynched

if his claimed target died

.
2) There is no reason to believe that MVP would ultimately investigate Cabd, and he therefore poses a risk to scum as long as he is alive.

1) MVP wasn't at the top of most read lists on Day 2, from what I saw. I don't think an MVP mislynch on day 3 would be impossible to imagine. Not producing results would just be another nail in the coffin.
2) I think there's ample reason to think it's the highest probability. I'd rather make the likely assumption that he was investigating Cabd than make the stretch that he wasn't. He hinted at his intent several times.

[Izariael]

MVP's claim hinged on producing Night 2 results. I feel like the doctor may have protected MVP Night 2 to give them the opportunity to produce those results since MVP was the only claimed PR. Not protecting an investigative roleclaim during their only night to produce results seems like a bad play. If he couldn't produce results when protected, then lynch him day 3.

More reason to believe that Cabd would not necessarily be his target. And scum would know that.

But if Cabd's crumbing about having information to reveal on day 3 drew away the doctor's protection to Cabd last night, that left MVP open for the kill. Not being the doctor, I can't confirm the doctor's actions here but I think it's a distinct possibility that Cabd drew away the protection from MVP, which got MVP killed, intentionally or otherwise.

I don't want or need a doctor's claim here btw.

Do we even know if there is a doctor? Why are we speculating about this?


Why are we not lynching Toomai?

a 15 player game with a vigi and even-night investigative role wouldn't have a protective role? I think that's unlikely. I'm fine with speculating on the assumption that we have a doctor.

And I'm not voting Toomai because day 2's quicklynch took time away from things I wanted to do before the end of day. I don't feel like a repeat.

[Izariael]

1) MVP wasn't at the top of most read lists on Day 2, from what I saw. I don't think an MVP mislynch on day 3 would be impossible to imagine. Not producing results would just be another nail in the coffin.

It does not matter. If Cabd died, I doubt MVP could have been lynched if MVP then said that Cabd was his target. And that still does not change the fact that MVP could have received results on actual scum and was therefore a threat.

I still think town-Cabd with conferrable information is a bigger threat than MVP with investigative information that was more likely than not a negative result.

2) I think there's ample reason to think it's the highest probability. I'd rather make the likely assumption that he was investigating Cabd than make the stretch that he wasn't. He hinted at his intent several times.

Which is irrelevant because we cannot verify the authenticity of his stated intent. He could have been hinting at that for any number of reasons that would lead to his ultimate investigation on another player. I dispute vehemently the assertions of "highest probability" and "likely assumption."

So Occam's Razor means nothing to you in this situation? Okay, but I still consider it so keep that in mind when you read my posts. These are my observations. I'm putting them out there to be discussed. We don't have (m)any certainties, so I'm pushing what I think is the most likely scenario.

a 15 player game with a vigi and even-night investigative role wouldn't have a protective role? I think that's unlikely.

Not impossible. And a potential protector could have any number of modifiers, like JK or a night modifier.

Yes, you're right. You can replace the word doctor in my last posts by any protective role you wish. I arbitrarily chose doctor because it's the first one I think of when contemplating protective roles. There's a reason this is called : doc :

I'm fine with speculating on the assumption that we have a doctor.

I see no reason to speculate at all.

Yet you didn't make this comment when Cabd speculated? Or when ika speculated? Or when scrambles speculated? So why shut me down? Is it just because I'm not voting Toomai?

And I'm not voting Toomai because day 2's quicklynch took time away from things I wanted to do before the end of day. I don't feel like a repeat.

What things, exactly? And does it not bother you that there has been an anti-Toomai contingent that has watched Toomai escape two subsequent quicklynches? Speculate on that.

I've already said I'm undecided on Toomai. I'll vote Toomai if and when I feel like voting Toomai, and no sooner. Deal with it.

[Izariael]

Still think Cabd is scum. Little is going to change that since he's still being tight-lipped and directing the flow of this game. He never did get back to me from post 2200:

Speaking of information, what information did you have Cabd? You said you'd come out with it on Day 3, and yet you've given us nothing but unsubstantiated speculation. You spoke in riddles yesterday, so now is the time to be direct about it.

I don't think they have a RB. I think it's goon goon goon Bulletproof or something along those lines.

Yesterday you were going on about some big thing you were going to test overnight.

What was that about, where did it go?

It happened, and AP's town.

Is this the startling news I was supposed to bring an extra pair of pants for?

Well there's what I implied you were claiming earlier to ap.

And then there's what you implied you were claiming.

But I feel like one of those claims requires more divulged night info.

Unless I missed it. Which is possible.

I'm not sure what you think i thought you thought i was claiming *deep breath from tongue twister* but

i have nothing else to add at this time.

So you spent all of day 2 revving up with promises to reveal info on day 3, and now that you've survived the night (miraculously as town-Cabd dropping "subtle" hints of having info...) you're not willing to divulge the info?

[Izariael]

Can we seriously stop lynching town?

Vote: Mirhawk

Also when he flips something that doesnt eat bullets we can just lynch Cabd after.

I approve of this message. This is totally just nasty OMGUS on my part, because I have no substance to any of my votes and enjoy using a lot of logical fallacy, so I'm voting with someone who uses superior logic.

VOTE: Mirhawk

I feel that AP, T S O and Ceph are town.

TWIE and Toomai are likely town. I wouldn't vote for either today. I would only consider a vote for Toomai if the only alternative was a no-lynch... but since it

isn't

, I won't be voting for him.

Cabd is stilllllllllll scummy.

Dunno why people are townreading this tbh. Anyone?

I think Aegor is town, unsure how I feel about him jumping down my throat for not voting Toomai. Didn't really change my read on him though. He's okay.

ika is just... ika..? He's probably town since reinoe flipped town, but I'd probably still vote for him if we were both at LyLo. Intentionally being scummy as town to make your scum meta harder to distinguish is a WIFOM play that I never like to let slide by. If I'd be scummy for voting ika, yet ika is towny for acting the way he does... then shit. I give up.

scrambles is possible scum. Kind of PoE, kind of gut feel from what I've read of him. I haven't scrutinized anything from his ISO, so I guess that's next for me.

[Izariael]

Trust me izy if you come after me, I will make it my job to Lynch you first.

Wow, who are you, ika? You sound all "come on bro, 1v1 me" right now.

[Izariael]

Townreads are not earned.

They simply are.

Sorry but no.

I believe in cause and effect.

He can't have a townread without having a reason for it.

But scrambles can have a scumread on me without having a reason for it, because it agrees with your opinion, right?

I feel very strongly town about TWIE TSO and IZA

I feel strongly scum on MVP, AP, REN, MIRHAWK

Any on else have the feeling that i zy is scum?

Can someone finish off toomai before Mirhawk gets bussed in.

I agree with Mir. At least ivy and toomai are scum.

Trust me

izy if you come after me, I will make it my job to Lynch you

first.

My townread on Cephrir is nothing new. You can go back on my ISO and see that I've agreed with many of his posts and felt they rang town.

My townread on T S O is also nothing new. Little has changed on it, even after reinoe's flip.

My townread on AP isn't really new, but is a bit more behind the scenes. From day 1, I've had a strong town lean on him based on his interactions with others. I did question it somewhat on Day 2 after going back and looking at the Day 1 voting, but I didn't find anything I found scummy enough to outweigh the town lean.

I didn't feel like reiterating reasons I've already stated, so I tried to keep it short for the sake of brevity. Look where it got us though. This was certainly not less cumbersome than if I had just copy/pasted my townreads from earlier. My reads have shifted somewhat, but not enough to warrant detailing the shift. If a read changes by a substantial amount, then I'd be sure to detail what has caused that shift.

[Izariael]

If you have a problem with scrambles scumread on you why don't you take it up with him? I'm not sure why you think I should be questioning scumreads that you don't like.

I was making a point. You were disgruntled that I posted townreads with no reasons attached, and yet never batted an eye when scrambles scumread me without a reason. It's a double-standard.

[Izariael]

If you have a problem with scrambles scumread on you why don't you take it up with him?

I'm not sure why you think I should be questioning scumreads that you don't like.

I was making a point. You were disgruntled that I posted townreads with no reasons attached, and yet never batted an eye when scrambles scumread me without a reason. It's a double-standard.

I'm not sure why you think I should be questioning townreads that you don't like.

[Izariael]

Pointing out a double standard != scumread. Both of you are putting words in my mouth by saying I'm using this as a scumtell. I'm not.

Just because I'm voting for Mirhawk doesn't mean that everything I say to him is a scumread...

Scrambles has a reason to scumread you. The core of my arguement is that its impossible to have a read without a reason.

I don't understand how you can be saying my townread has no reason

when I've posted my reasons before

, and yet say that scrambles has a reason to scumread me when

he's never posted a reason

. You literally can't argue both points.

Also, why is scrambles' reason unimportant to you? Is it just because he agrees with you that I'm scum? I find it unsettling that his first mention of the possibility that I'm scum came right after you made mention of it. I don't care if he's scumreading me, but the way he's gone about doing it is questionable to me. The fact that you don't care about his reason or method of doing so is curious to me given your stance on my townread.

At this point, it's Scum-Izzy wondering why town-Mirhawk is choosing to ignore town-scrambles, so I doubt anything I say here will have much impact on your interaction with him.

I can tell you that I have a town scan on Mirhawk, soooo

I'm gonna need more info to believe this one, because right now I don't. Spit it out.

really trying for that easy lynch

Says the one on a Toomai wagon. If I was trying for an easy lynch I would have just voted Toomai and ika would hammer.

Oh but wait, I'm scum-Izzy and scum-Toomai is my partner. Shit. I forgot I'm not supposed to be revealing my partners via associative tells! I've been doing it all game!

[Izariael]

Pointing out a double standard != scumread. Both of you are putting words in my mouth by saying I'm using this as a scumtell. I'm not.

Just because I'm voting for Mirhawk doesn't mean that everything I say to him is a scumread...

Scrambles has a reason to scumread you. The core of my arguement is that its impossible to have a read without a reason.

I don't understand how you can be saying my townread has no reason

when I've posted my reasons before

, and yet say that scrambles has a reason to scumread me when

he's never posted a reason

. You literally can't argue both points.

Also, why is scrambles' reason unimportant to you? Is it just because he agrees with you that I'm scum? I find it unsettling that his first mention of the possibility that I'm scum came right after you made mention of it. I don't care if he's scumreading me, but the way he's gone about doing it is questionable to me. The fact that you don't care about his reason or method of doing so is curious to me given your stance on my townread.

At this point, it's Scum-Izzy wondering why town-Mirhawk is choosing to ignore town-scrambles, so I doubt anything I say here will have much impact on your interaction with him.

If you're not using it as a scumread why did you bring it up? The phrase double standard has negative connotations associated with it. So if its not a part of your case why mention it. Aside from trying to make me look worse that is.

At this point I'm dropping it. I had read your 2296 as a way of implying that my townread had no reasons attached to it, when I'd already previously stated my reasons. I saw it as a discredit to my read on the basis that it had no reasons. Then I saw scrambles sitting there on a scumread that he hadn't posted reasons for, and you had no reaction to it.

It literally made me go like

I acknowledged your reason, are you saying that reason isn't the actual reason for your read? Or are you just cherry picking my responses. Also how could I possibly be accusing you of having no reasons.

I've repeatedly stated that its impossible to not have reasons.

I'm admitting that it was a misread on my part on post 2296. I went back yet again after reading this post and saw that this was indeed the case. And I agree, it's impossible to not have reasons. I've drilled others for it before (e.g. T S O and DJ on day 1)

I'm not sure why you expect scrambles reasons to be so important to me. I'm pretty obviously not grilling every player in the game for reasons behind their reads.

I'm kind of perturbed that you keep trying to drag this into an argument over scrambles. If you have a scumread on him how about you pursue it directly instead of trying to make me argue in his defense.

scrambles was used because he was the most recent example of someone arbitrarily throwing a read out without stating a reason. [insert any ika read] or Cabd's AP townread would have equally sufficed as an example in his place. It wasn't who provided the read, it was the read itself (no reasons attached) that I was using as an example. The example itself is rather moot given the above. Do I think his read flip on me is scummy? Probably, but my stance on it was unrelated to the example it was providing.

[Izariael]

Cabd's AP townread

To clarify, I was referring to this one:

Yesterday you were going on about some big thing you were going to test overnight.

What was that about, where did it go?

It happened, and AP's town.

Cabd's mentioned a couple of AP townreads from time to time, but this one where he pushes it a bit further without providing details fit the bill of what I was using as example.

[Izariael]

Already moved to discredit. Id say all three are scum.
ap, cephalopods, toomai
Thats really the only viable option.

So I'm no longer in this list of scum? Darn. You were just dancing around with that one a few pages ago...

[Izariael]

Did we ever get a proper claim from Cabd? I really see no reason for him to continue beating around the bush. I have a hard time believing his claim given that I have basically zero information to go off from it. There's nothing there except a bunch of cryptic mumbo jumbo that I have neither the time nor the interest in trying to decipher. Just be direct about it already...

He still hasn't revealed anything from his Day 2 convo with AP. What were you guys talking about? It seemed to call MVP's claim into question, but since we know his claim to be true, what does that mean in regards to that convo?

He hasn't explained what happened on Night 2 that makes AP town? He just said "it" happened.

He hasn't said what role he has. He's only said there might be a back-up to him somewhere..? Why is he still holding on to the anonymity of his role at this point? It's not like scum is going to be confused and

not

try to take him out if he continues to obfuscate his role.

He's completely taking scrambles' claim at face value, and using it to remove scrambles+Mirhawk from his scum pool. What is it about this claim that rings truth to you Cabd?

Most of his recent posts are basically just throwing insults at others for not reading between the lines, yet he's gone out of his way to be cryptic about shit in the first place. It's counter-productive and unnecessary at this point of the game. Just spit it out. It's not doing townies any good trying to find scum if you ARE a PR with information that you're not revealing. Stop this condescending crap and spill the beans.

Just gonna say it again... but I think this guy is scum. If he's a town PR holding onto information, then I fail to understand the reasons for it. The target is already painted on his back if he's town, and going down with information is tow is not helping us catch scum.

[Izariael]

Why would it be desperately struggling for survival? If I'm not on your scum list, then I don't have to worry about your lynch vote.

[Izariael]

I'm not concerned with your lynch vote to begin with. You can vote me again, I don't mind.

If you want to bring up "I thought I breadcrumbed enough" then the onus is on you to show me those breadcrumbs if you want/need me to believe your claim. I have no interest in sifting through all of your posts trying to determine which ones are crumbing and which ones aren't. Same goes for Cabd.

As of right now, I don't believe your claim. It feels like something you've conjured up to stop the push on Mirhawk, and are now trying to retcon into a legitimate claim. Retcon away, but don't expect me to go out of my way to try and convince myself that your claim is real just because you say it is. Sorry, but I'd rather not waste my time needlessly.

[Izariael]

I mean, that is some hardcore pretending. Lemme venture a guess, im scum fakeclaiming and trying to put together a series of mislynches out of the possibilities, and ive purposely left you out izzy because im..hmmmm... trying to gain your vote approval? Or maybe, im scum who doesn't actually think you're scum, so I omitted you because I cant keep my extremely complicated undercountered fakeclaim story straight?

Weren't you just voting for me a few pages ago because of my "WIFOM sarcastic" comments? Look who's calling the kettle black... Amazing how easy it is to rely on sarcasm when the claims against you seem preposterous from your vantage point? OBVSCUM.

How have I "created evidence out of thin air"? I've said I don't believe your claim, and why it

feels

disingenuous, but I don't think I've conjured up anything that you've said or done that hasn't actually happened. The outcome of my interpretations may be incorrect, but that does not mean I've made up false information regarding your actions/statements. It just means I've misjudged your intent. I've given you plenty of time and opportunity to help me understand and see truth in your claim, but instead of doing so you've just been saying I'm scummy for not believing your claim. It's an uncontested claim, but that doesn't mean much to me in a closed set-up. How am I supposed to know if your role is in the game to begin with? I have to rely on what I see within the scope of the game, and right now what I see doesn't add up the way you say it should. (now would be a cool time to post a proper claim, as ika suggested)

Im just going to have to assume though, due to your persistence in this logic, that you figure a scum team of mir cabd myself and one other?
Is that fair to say?

It's fair enough to say. Cabd is on any scum team I would propose. I'm not sold on you as scum, and haven't been, but by PoE you're up there in my top suspects, and your claim hasn't pushed that in the town direction at all yet.

I'm less sold on Mirhawk as scum, but I still see it being possible. Still think scum-Mirhawk is more likely than scum-Toomai and will not be voting Toomai as a result. It kind of looks like the Toomai lynch might go through anyways. Either way, I won't be joining the Toomai wagon, for better or for worse.

Unknown on a fourth, if there is one. I could see myself throwing ika into any scumteam because he's just suspicious as fuck; the only reason I haven't done so yet is because of reinoe flip. If I mislynch two anti-town players in a row... then... yeah. Every time I don't vote ika, I kick myself a little. It hurts to not vote for him.

UNVOTE: Mirhawk; VOTE: Cabd
Might as well try. He's dodged under everyone's radar for reasons unknown to me and is skating by on a soft-claim. He's withheld and obscured information, and when asked to reveal information he had stated intent to share, he remained tight-lipped about it. He's directed a lot of the action this game yet isn't being scrutinized, and he's basically all but setting up to chain-lynch as of 2349

p-edit: Yep. We can move on now. Thanks. Got about shit-ton of questions about Aeronaut not investigating on N1, but those will remain forever unanswered...

[Izariael]

Uhhh.

Yeah so my "Thats too many fucking PRs" alarm is ringing.

And Cabd just willing to accept a cop claim after softing an investigative is bullshit too.

Pretty much this.

[Izariael]

Not sure why I can't, but okay. I agreed with the sentiment. I still do.

[Izariael]

softing an investigative

Say what the what now?

I absolutely am not softing that.


Also fuck you, i'm not claiming today with the cop claim on the board.

Why not? I feel like at least one of you two is lying, possibly both. I don't see how it would hurt your status right now to hardclaim. Walk me through your head.

[Izariael]

Because your post was better.

Like people are going to read your good post.

And then read my shitty post.

And then you draw more attention to my shitty post.

Its quite rude.

Oh.

Sorry. My bad?

[Izariael]

We are rapidly approaching LyLo... as early as tomorrow with 4 scum... how long are we giving semi-/soft-/hard-claimed PRs a free skate-through?

[Izariael]

So, if I assume both Cabd and scrambles are truthfully claiming...

At this point, if Cabd got night-killed that would still give us more information than what he has disclosed so far of his own volition. There's really no reason for him NOT to full-claim at this point.

---------------------------------------------

That said, I'm having a really hard time seeing a world where Cabd is telling the truth about having an investigative role, believes scrambles is also telling the truth and thus Mirhawk is conftown, AND is reluctant to fullclaim at this point in time,

after

scrambles has claimed full cop. It's just not adding up.

[Izariael]

if he's not investigative, how did night 2 clear AP? I asked about this before, but he never bothered to reply, so maybe one of you guys can answer it for me.

[Izariael]

Thank goodness we all beat around the bush so I get to look like a moron yet again who has the comprehensive ability of a vegetable for jumping to an incorrect conclusion.

[Izariael]

What's causing this paradigm shift? Talk to me.

[Izariael]

I still feel like at least one of [Cabd; scrambles] claims is total BS, if not both... Toomai flip and night results will hopefully tell which.

[Izariael]

Last week was the worst work week ever for me; I worked twenty hours more than usual.

Amen.

Gotta catch up on Day 4 reading, but my head hurts trying to make sense of this game.

[Izariael]

Izariael is not scum, and lynching him will result in a scum win as assuredly as lynching me.

Just how deep are a warthog's pockets?

[Izariael]

Hmm.

At first, I felt like going after Cabd still because too many pieces of his jigsaw don't fit in with the rest of the picture...

Then I felt like going after Ceph because he's been on all 3 mislynches and seems to be quite comfortable with me in his pocket... His day 4 has a different tone than the others and he seems to be reacting strangely to the warning shots of the firing squad. There's more red flags here than all of China.

Then I felt like saying fuck it to both those options, because ika's dumb hammers have shot us in both knees.

VOTE: ika

Anyways, if we have 4 scum, then we probably lose on a no-lynch... so it's not really an option. Town has already lost the game if this is a 4-man scum team though... It's just so much easier to force a no-lynch than to bus a teammate at this point. Since ika is just a pro-scum vote waiting to happen, then I'm gonna nip his ass before we all die.

Come on ika, 1v1 me bro. I've voted you, what have you got?

[Izariael]

The problem with keeping you alive is that it keeps town in a win-less situation anyways. The point about 1v1s in lylo is completely moot as a result.

Your consistency in laying down the hammer has been a detriment, and you're intentionally voting in a nonsensical pattern that makes little to no sense. It's like you just spit out the first name that pops into your head, which is usually the last person to vote you.

I gave you the benefit of doubt earlier, but I'm done throwing trolls a freebie. I'd rather be known as the guy who lynched two trolltowns than the guy who let trollscum survive.

[Izariael]

Can we finally lynch this? I've been wanting to do this since Day 1.

VOTE: Cabd

[Izariael]

What are the chances of only having one or two scum? I've kind of been working off the assumption of 3/4 the whole game, and clearly it isn't 4.

[Izariael]

Would that deemed normal under the guidelines?

[Izariael]

Nevermind, there's definitely at least two:

"The game should have at least one Mafia or Werewolf group (of at least two members)."

[Izariael]

I can't think of two scum roles that would balance this unless they were, like, both doctors.

That was actually something I've been considering. It would make all of the existing town power roles nothing but red herrings... and would indeed be COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS.

[Izariael]

Honestly, at this point I don't give two craps if Cabd has like a Vengeful modifier or whatever that ends the game. Can we just get this over with?

[Izariael]

We're probably playing right into his hands by lynching him, if today's chat is any indicator, but I'm kind of beyond trying to solve this game. It makes my head hurt.

[Izariael]

UNVOTE: Cabd

I don't think there's been a hammer yet? I'm kinda feeling uneasy about something that was once so sure.

[Izariael]

If Cabd is vengeful mafia, then lynching him ends the game right there. And I'll admit, I'm not opposed to that. I mean, it's been fun and all, but holy cripes town has been trolled.

If Cabd makes it to final 3 and gets lynched, town could still win. I'm kind of navigating on the assumption that he has some sort of vengeful role...

Anyways, I unvoted to try and figure out who his scumbuddies are. Very likely Ceph, and undecided on the other.

[Izariael]

Everyone claimed yesterday at some point. It was just a choir of "VANILLA!"

[Izariael]

I think I was V/LA for that part though... so I'll go ahead and say it. I'm VT.

[Izariael]

How do you feel about Ceph being obvscum yesterday when he didnt need to?

Is your setup really odd night rb and even night doc? Cause I feel like I pegged the shit out of that.

Oh and thanks for killing Mirhawk cause I was still paranoid that he was the maf doc.

Serious question, did any of you fall for my shitty fake breadcrumb?

Or you could just read these 2 posts.

And realize that Ceph is like claiming scum here.

I feel like Im missing context with this post which hopefully I'll find shortly.

I still don't quite think its that... easy?

It might just be that easy... I'm leaning toward a Ceph lynch over a Cabd lynch today. Cabd is like 99.9999% scum, as he's been all game, but I think the order of lynch is important here.

[Izariael]

Oh also game is already over I had four votes on me at one point or another.

You may want to go back and recount. TWIE never voted for you. I don't think it's made 4 votes yet

[Izariael]

Besides even if that was the case can you lot really handle another week of this shit? I'm bringing my phone hotspot camping.

I might be willing to look past it with the scent of defeat looming over me.

[Izariael]

VOTE: Cephrir

I'm enjoying watching Cabd realize he miscounted votes.

[Izariael]

*popcorn*

[Izariael]

Serious question, did

any of you

fall for my shitty fake breadcrumb?

that post isn't a scumclaim, cabd said he would answer any questions we had so

i was posing that question to him

also, what the fuck izzy, it's lylo, stop fucking around, tia

[Izariael]

if izzy is scum trying to win a day earlier than otherwise i will probably consider suicide for how bad my reads were this game???? certainly mafia suicide anyway

Well thank goodness you don't have to follow through with this empty promise. I'm town, you've known I'm town for the entire game, and posts like this:

Izzy is the townest town that ever towned a town, for those of you keeping score at home.

No. I am pretty close to "I will never vote Izzy" territory.

I don't have the foggiest idea why you suspect me or Izzy

Izariael is not scum, and lynching him will result in a scum win as assuredly as lynching me.

Have left me feeling that you're trying to immortalize yourself within the town bloc by latching on to me from early game.

[Izariael]

Also Cabd, why did you stop posting? I was entertained by your serenades.

[Izariael]

Like shit, this popcorn is going to waste now.

[Izariael]

Oh... I get it now. The scum have retreated to their daytalk to strategize.

I'll wait.

[Izariael]

I have a feeling this is going to end very anti-climatically...

[Izariael]

I will laugh if this is 3v3 multiball and I am the only town player left.

if 3v3 multiball went on this long with only one kill a night, something is up.

Regardless, that's not the case.

-----------------------------------------

Also, this is pretty much exactly what I expected to happen when Aegor came in.

[Izariael]

Did you read the parts where Cabd's lynch could spell T-H-E E-N-D? I dunno if you did. It doesn't look like you did.

[Izariael]

Did you read the parts where Cabd's lynch could spell T-H-E E-N-D? I dunno if you did. It doesn't look like you did.

Correction: lynching him today. He will be lynched, but I think the order in which we lynch will determine the outcome of the game.

[Izariael]

Hmm... would Vengeful Mafia Doctor count for 1 of the 2 non-normal roles allowed? I think it might.

How would a gunsmith read that role?

I really think he might be Vengeful, which is why scum aren't hammering him.

[Izariael]

No wait, that still makes no sense.

[Izariael]

I think the fact that a 3-man scumteam hasn't quick-hammered Cephrir off of my vote means that either:
A) Cephrir is scum

or

B) it's a 2-man scumteam.

[Izariael]

I'm aware you're trying to goad me into doing it, Cephrir, you're not subtle.

I am also aware we don't actually have a legitimate way of removing Cabd.

If anyone wants to suggest one besides lynch, that'd be marvellous.

We just lynch all the scums that arent him.

Then we lynch him.

ez.

This is never going to fucking happen!

Still worth a shot. It'll at least be more interesting than the obvious end of lynching Cabd.

[Izariael]

There is no way we are going to consecutively lynch scum

until LyLo

. Let's be honest - it won't happen. Therefore, #3002 is relevant. Read it, then someone fucking hammer.

How do you know it's not already LyLo?

[Izariael]

Well, this is starting to stagnate into a Mexican stand-off...

[Izariael]

Someone fucking vote him. This is crazy.

I'm still as tempted as ever. I was waiting to see if anyone would bother contributing anything new... but it's not looking that way.

How can town be so incredibly inept?

You're right. We were so on track to have a perfect town win that this sudden derailment of events is clearly indicative of the ineptitude of the few town players remaining.

[Izariael]

So I'm guessing the game is over..?

My thoughts were scum = Cabd, Ceph + AP? AP wound up being PoE more than the other two.

I had townreads I felt confident in on Aegor, TWIE and T S O (until last 2 pages lol. I kinda started to question it and I'm still having hints of doubt that weren't there prior to like 3K posts)

How far off-base am I on this... It felt like I couldn't get traction to push my preferred lynches here.

[Izariael]

I was scum, yes.

[Izariael]

oh wait, I thought we were making jokeses since we're waiting on gm. Were you serious?

[Izariael]

Sorry townies... I had internet issues that prevented me from posting. Only managed to get them fixed tonight

wp scumteam. I had your numbers, but couldn't take action on it when it mattered most.