NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[CrashTextDummie]

Good things invariably happen when Glork gets waggoned.

Vote: Glork

If you want the town to win, vote Glork.

[CrashTextDummie]

Although, I still find starting with day instead of night somewhat odd.

Blame Patrick for not catering to the truly old school.

What kind of information do you think your alternative vote will produce?

[CrashTextDummie]

I agree with PJ's thoughts on MafiaSSK. It's a similar tell to the one I caught UT with in the last Oldy, though it's not as strong here. I also think Yos has decent points against VitR, though I'll withhold judgement on him until I see a response. In addition to those, the one person who stood out to me was chamber:

Yeaaah. I'm going to be less confident this game just because people have old styles, but that screams scum to me.

This to me is the scummiest post of the game so far. It's incredibly severe in its wording for page 2 ("screams scum") and at the same time cushioned by the "reduced confidence". He's preemptively giving himself an out on the grounds that people are hard to read. VitR challenged him on this and he defended his position on two occasions, and yet he dropped her completely to join the Seol bandwagon for reasons unknown (Tigris was at 6, Seol at 3).

vote: chamber

In other news, I found Tigris' response to my question to be reasonable and she looks decently town to me. Same goes for PJ and Yos and, to a lesser degree, StD.

Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure ABR is pulling reads out of his ass:

People I'm willing to lynch:

Petrolumjelly
Glork
LoudMouthLee

People I think are town:

DGB
VitaminR
farside22

DGB and farside town reads look particularly far-fetched.

[CrashTextDummie]

Actually, I'm sure I'll get an answer form chamber without the vote and MafiaSSK needs more pressure.

I wish I could find that smiley, but I agree with Yos2. This just makes sense.

And I think it makes more sense than Tigrisscum at the moment so..

Even after admitting that he should have kept it on the "joke" level, he

still

tries to legitimize his Tigris vote.

unvote, vote: MafiaSSK

[CrashTextDummie]

This is also odd. What does it being page 2 have to do with anything?

I don't think I've ever seen anything that screamed scum to me by page two of a game. It's a very strongly worded suspicion for that stage of the game, IMO.

How is the frequency with which I stand by my statements a viable metric for the strength of my read?

If it weren't for those VitR, interactions, I might have put that post off as hyperbolic.

What about Seol's play stood out to you?

[CrashTextDummie]

Prod dodge. Content tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

DGB and farside town reads look particularly far-fetched.

What makes you say that? (I think he is right)

I don't see how you can get a town read on DGB from two page one votes and two town declarations (which is all she had done at that point). Same goes for farside's two posts. Why do you think they are town?

Straight up agreeing with the fact that he is just bandwagonning. But that's not the real point especially since it's RVS and #yolo. But it's that last line especially that is almost an appeal to the populace that I think we can see as the foundation for CTD's play.

I'm actually only half-joking when I say that wagoning Glork is good for the town. This is also my standard opening for games that feature Glork. I don't see how you can call this post the "foundation" for my play and calling it "damning" is a huge stretch.

For if you look in his third post there are even examples of this where he does a straight up Appeal to Authority:

As Seol pointed out, agreeing with another player is not an appeal to authority. I consider your arguments against me a OMGUS-tinged smear campaign.

3.) CrashTextDummie, I have not read the last Oldy game. Please explain how you "caught UT in that game." And then explain why you decided to bring it up.

UT placed an ambiguous bandwagon vote on me and when questioned about it couldn't make up his mind on whether he was joking, sarcastic or just bandwagoning. He also tried to retrofit his vote with reasoning. He was a lot more flustered about it than MafiaSSK is here, hence why I don't consider it as strong of a tell here. I brought it up because the town in that game was not very receptive to that tell and let the UT slot survive into Lylo despite him being obv-scum.

That's not an appeal to authority: that would be following someone on the basis of who they are. That's agreeing with someone else's arguments. That's what arguments are for.

While you are correct, I don't see why you would feel compelled to make arguments for me other than to attempt to buddy me. This point certainly doesn't feel integral to your reasoning for voting MafiaSSK.

I'll go a step further. CTD is on the NERVERLYNCH list. He's that town.

While I am flattered, I'm not quite sure how I've earned this distinction. Not that I expect it to stick for too long.

I love being town. Figuring stuff out is fun. Dissecting arguments, finding motivations, skewering liars, etc. It's a great time.

Have you actually done any of that?

I don't see where MafiaSSK disowned the legitimacy of his Tigris joke, and I think you're misapplying something MafiaSSK said about his choice to respond to Tigris's question with a theory position rather than his choice to vote Tigris. (Incidentally, it looks like PJ also conflated these two separate things in Post 160.)

Please respond. Best, GC.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here (even with the edit). Please rephrase.

Really? Excusing your hardly logical reasoning with belief?

Just to make it clear, in your view, CES saying "I agree with CTD that chamber's alignment is fairly obvious at this point" right after CTD's posts (and even though CTD didn't make it clear he thought chamber was obvscum) is a discreet way of showing agreement to a scum partner.

Honestly, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt about that RV-wagon theory, but you just keep on coming out with some outlandish reasonings I frankly wouldn't expect from an oldie.

I agree with the thrust of this argument. MafiaSSK clearly misread CES's statement and when this was pointed out to him, instead of admitting his mistake, he tried to spin his argument so that he could maintain the "associative tell" between us. This does not look like legitimate scumhunting to me.

Eh, the LML wagon is finally building up a little bit. I like to keep the pressure up at least until he actually contributes a little bit more.

How much is "a little bit more"? While trying to keep pressure on an undercontributing player is pro-town, the wording of this post indicates that LML doesn't have to do a whole lot more than just show up for you to move your vote, giving me the impression that you're keeping it there more for appearance than actual pressure.

I really hate this post (and the one after). I am not sure a lack of reasoning, especially from chamber is worthy of a vote. Particularly because I don't see a huge reason not to change at that point? 128 and 129 look very superficial, I don't see them as actual reasons for them being scum.

My issue with chamber has nothing to do with lack of reasoning. Please explain in more detail why you find those posts superficial. Apparently these are the only posts that stood out to you apart from MafiaSSK stuff in these first 12 pages. To call your scumhunting effort underwhelming would be an understatement.

[CrashTextDummie]

Assuming this game is 6 feet under.

Oldies should be able to handle a tiny crash. We didn't even lose any data, so it hardly even counts as a crash by Oldy standards.

I'm mostly just checking in, will be V/LA until Sunday.

[CrashTextDummie]

Was prodded, but I remain V/LA until late tonight. I have time to fully catch up tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

Turns out I didn't have time to get fully caught up. Starting from where I left off.

I'm trying not to make broad, sweeping judgements yet because, well... we're just beginning D1.

Curiously, I remember you being a player that's

very

prone to making broad, sweeping judgements at the beginning of D1 (Fire & Ice Mafia comes to mind: "joking is scummy").

Why half-joking?

I genuinely believe that waggoning Glork to start the game off is good for the town, for mostly superstitious reasons.

eh.
a. the stuff I got off VitR was that.
b. I don't liveblog my reading. most of that happens internally.
c. you know gosh darn well that you can't really do a lot day 1 with real cases.

a. what stuff you got off VitR?
b. please externalize your readings more. "I'm doing all that stuff I love doing as town, but on the inside" is not very convincing.
c. I know the exact opposite to be the case.

I struggle to explain things like this. Like I know you explained why you thought it was scummy, but its more you gaining reasons from chambers wording rather than the thought process behind it. It seems too easy.

I actually explicitly mentioned why I thought the thought process behind the wording is potentially suspect so I'm really not sure what you're getting at.

CTD:

Rephrased:

- MafiaSSK said that (1) it "would make sense to blow it off with a joke" when referring to how he responded to Tigris -- that is, it would make sense to respond to Tigris with a joke rather than with his bandwagon theory -- but MafiakSSK (2) never disowned the legitimacy of his Tigris vote, and directed PJ to look at MafiaSSK's earlier posts where he justified his Tigris vote. (Post 124.)

- You conflated those two points to say that MafiaSSK de-legitimized his vote for Tigris by recognizing that his vote should have been kept on the joke level. (Post 129.) As stated above, MafiaSSK acknowledged that maybe he should have responded with a joke instead of a bandwagon theory, but MafiaSSK never said that his vote itself was a joke or not legitimate (which he apparently thought was aligned with his own bandwagon theory).

Do you disagree with what I believe to be your mistake in reading MafiaSSK's posts?

No, I don't. For one thing, I find it hard to believe that his bandwagon theory would lead him to actually, legitimately suspect Tigris (which he reinforced by stating that "[VitR] makes more sense than Tigris-scum at the moment" in Post 124, which to me implies that he needed a stronger case to "convince" him to move on from Tigris).

My issue with him is also not that he de-legitimized the vote, but rather the opposite. That he presented his bandwagon theory to turn what looked like a joke vote into an actual suspicion.

@PJ, Poro, CTD and undo, you have somewhat similar reasons for voting SSK. I haven't read the guy in other games yet--have you? I want to know whether these odd behaviors you've noted are scumtells of his, or as Sotty has alluded to, are hallmarks of his overall loose/"lynchable" play. If you believe that one or more of these behaviors are genuine tells for him in particular, please elaborate.

I don't remember ever playing with MafiaSSK.

@CTD, you've placed the burden of profiency upon yourself by alluding to your genius in the last Oldy game. Can you please list MafiaSSK's scumpartners in the order you intend to lynch them?

I don't consider myself a genius for catching UT in the last Oldy game, which is the only thing I've alluded to. You are alluding to the fact that I also caught two of his buddies early on in that game, so I'm pretty sure you're the one BoPing me. I'll humor you with a list once I'm done catching up nevertheless.

At this point, not very suspicious of mafiassk to be honest, at least partially because of his potential leaps in logic. Partly kept my vote on him since others found/find him suspicious and to garner more reactions supporting/detracting from him, but that is insufficient reason for me right now since I plan on more fully analyzing in the next few days.

That's a lot of words to justify removing a vote. I find myself agreeing with MBL that Tigris seems image conscious. She didn't place a new vote promising further analysis and I don't really get the point of making a scene of unvoting other than an attempt to look pro-town.

It's meta based mostly. My town read on ABR is a lot stronger than the one on DGB but that doesn't really matter (the Farside one is non existent since her replace out). Town reads aren't locked in and I can change my mind at any moment should I want to. I just don't see the need to argue with someones declared town read unless you have a scum read on that and I didn't really get that from your post. You just seemed to be disagreeing to disagree rather than dig any deeper.

I didn't argue with his town reads, I questioned their legitimacy. I don't think he had anything to say about that, so I'll continue thinking that he's just pulling reads out of his ass. I think it's problematic to liberally dish out unwarranted town reads (it's worth noting that DGB is arguably a worse offender, and I'll get to that), precisely because they aren't expected to stick. It's a way for scum to look busy and potentially get some buddy points without much consequence. I don't have a good overview of ABR's play as it currently stands, but at the time I thought it was worth pointing out.

Post-crash catch up will have to come tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

Shamefully, I also have to deposit a prod dodge. Underestimated my commitments. I'll get some work done in here tonight.

[CrashTextDummie]

Catching up.

Post 370 pushes Shanba over the edge and into my so far meager town pile along with StD.

You keep calling Nat the VI wagon this game, but he wasn't. Nat was never going to get lynched for those votes, they were just forcing him to participate or replace out. The VI wagon this game has been an is on MafiaSSK.

Dislike chamber's characterization of MafiaSSK as a "VI wagon". Not that I agree with LML's characterization of Natirasha as a VI wagon either, but I think it's mostly a misapplication of the term in the case of the latter.

I donno, maybe it's just because I've played with her so many times, but this feels like town-DGB play, specifically.

Also, frankly, declaring this many people town as scum is likely to screw you over in the long run. It's not a good scum strategy to have as many town reads as she does, because you'll probably have to go back on some of them eventually in order to get enough lynches to win.

When has DGB ever been shy to change her reads on a whim? As scum in particular, she's prone to make 180s on her town reads, particularly when they start voting her.

It may not be good scum strategy to declare too many people town, but DGB has never conformed to to what is generally accepted as "good strategy" so your assessment of her play feels majorly off.

Post 411: Sotty joins the town pile. Not for this post specifically, it's just the latest of her post-crash posts that reminds me of a recent town game we shared.

The combination of RL excuses and the posting style prior to said excuses smell of scum avoiding the game.

I don't know if I'm a softy, but this (and Zorblag joining the chorus) strikes me as callous and opportunistic. I don't think Porochaz is the only player (or even the worst) with a lacking level of engagement, but the dude announced the death of a relative. A reasonable course of action would be to give him some time to ascertain whether his "avoiding" of the game is actually scum motivated or the result of his RL tragedy (which would be more than understandable). The fact that he even remained in the game is mildly town telling to me given his apparent lack of enthusiasm in playing a scum role in the last Oldy game.

Basically, I want to lynch one of the following people:
Seol (pending further contributions, possibly?)
VitR
Yos2
petroleumjelly
Maybe CES (pending ~reasons~)

That's a remarkably ambitious suspect list, featuring a rogue's gallery of some of the most proficient scum players in mafiascum history (PJ would probably disagree with me declaring him as such, but I digress). I personally don't have a solid read on any of these players and I have a hard time deciding whether this is a display of amazing scumhunting chutzpah or scum bravado. I know Glork is capable of the latter. Some posts later (#436, #437 in particular) look town enough that I accept the former as the stronger possibility though.

ABR is also playing to his town meta, from what I remember his town and scum game are completely different.

I've playing with town ABR recently and his play here is

nothing

like his play was there. My frame of reference is Red Wine mafia, where he was lynched as town on D1, gave reasons for his reads, made extensive arguments (by comparison), expressed doubt, showed engagement with people that went beyond trying to shepherd them to and from wagons, etc. Here, he has been directing traffic more than he has been scumhunting. 15ish pages of "lynch LML" followed by 15 pages of "don't lynch LML, lynch PJ".

People need to start explaining based on what meta they are giving ABR a pass on, since if your stance is "his town game and his scum game are totally different" then surely he must be scum here.

I have 10 more pages to read, I may manage that tonight.

[CrashTextDummie]

It may not be good scum strategy to declare too many people town, but DGB has never conformed to to what is generally accepted as "good strategy" so your assessment of her play feels majorly off.

This is town DGB play. I have a pretty high degree of confidence in that.

Do you disagree, or are you just nitpicking?

Yeah, I disagree. Though I would never profess a high degree of confidence in reading her.

Poro, I just took the most cursory of glances at that ISO, and I don't think it looks anything like his play here either. I'd also say he's plenty aggressive here, both in the certainty of reads he portrays and in the way he's trying to steer people to and from wagons.

[CrashTextDummie]

[*]Point #1: Natirasha

I am going to underline this, because you all (and yes, YOU ALL) should be considerably better than this. Voting is for lynching, not getting people to contribute. When people place votes on somebody to push pressure on them, the mentality changes. People no longer are looking for analysis. They're looking for defense. You've ALL been in this situation before. Think about it. When you're bandwagoning someone, they want defense of your actions. Then, they want to know why you aren't posting analysis. That all of your posts seem "defensive". It's circular. And it's a dangerous game that scum have been perpetuating for as long as I remember playing.

The defense of the Natirasha wagon has nothing to do with the fact that it had opportunity, and people JUMPED on it. Everyone who had read the thread knew what was going on. The votes were cast to generate suspicion on someone who had enough negative feelings from the town to move a wagon. I cannot be the ONLY person who sees this.

What radically old school thinking. I'm not sure I agree but I can follow the thought process and it looks pretty town to me.

It's been a busy week, but the good news is that my last tenure committee meeting of the academic year went well (all excellent evaluations and no issues of note.) I should have a bit more time to look at the game now. The beers are out and it's time to get back in the game!

The cheerfulness feels faintly fake. The rest of the quoted post is problematic for me as well. My general impression is that Zorblag was significantly more interested in scumhunting before he got a role in the game than after, and that doesn't bode well for his alignment.

pretty sure troll is town. So that's good.

Do tell why. You're still way too "internal" for my liking.

I have to stop here, will continue tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

Post 494: I've finally found a way to put into words what's been bothering me about Green Crayons. He seems to have a strong penchant for getting into pedantic and verbose arguments over minutiae, and I'm getting the feeling that he's arguing for argument's sake. Not a front runner suspect (for one thing, I liked that he called out Zorblag), but his play strikes me as off. The fact that chamber calls him out on this makes me feel better about chamber.

Compare and contrast his UT vote with his PJ case. I think LML is actually trying to lynch PJ. Note that PJ actually has a bandwagon against him, and is also probably a more significant threat to LML at the moment. I don't think LML was actually trying to lynch UT; I don't think he really cared one way or the other, he just wanted to look like he was doing something. The style of attack is quite different.

This is the most convincing argument against LML I have seen so far.

Hi. I'm here. Interest me.

Engaged when he's under the spotlight, "not interested" when he's not. Still a strong scum read.

Zorblag keeping pressure on Porochaz after he started to post and give opinions on the game seems pretty harsh. The reason he got Zor's vote was his lack of content now he provides such content you're going to call his motivation into question? Damned if you do damned if you don't. If you don't like the content at least pull something out of it to argue, the whole you dismissing it was pretty funky and I even hate pbpa's.

Yes. Substitute "harsh" with "scummy" and you have *goodposting*

1.) MafiaSSK, why do you believe the scum in this game do not have daytalk?

PJ is clearly paying attention. His play so far looks fine to me.

Isn't this pretty much the exact reason that PJ is voting LML? The VCA's are at least an important pillar of his case of right now combined with the lack of context supplied with the VCA. Your entrance into the game seems to try to defend LML's VCA by saying scum wouldn't work to provide such content and as such PJ's vote is overly opportunistic because of it. In this quote though you basically agree with PJ but then defer to Glork's "superior" scum hunting abilities by saying this wagon on LML is too easy. I just don't see how you can vote PJ if this is your true opinion on LML with your initial read though.

If you truly believe that someone on LML is opportunistic scum why am I seeing no content on Green Crayons or Yos? It's just a laser beam focus on PJ despite having read the game several times according to you. Doesn't add up.

I haven't been paying a lot of attention to BooKitty and I didn't find her predecessor's play as problematic as some others, but I could see myself sheeping Sotty here.

I don't like this shift from petroleumjelly.

I am not surprised.

LoudmouthLee (3) -- Green Crayons, Yosarian2, petroleumjelly
Kublai Khan (1) -- MrBuddyLee
MafiaSSK (2) -- CrashTextDummie, undo
Bookitty (6) -- Sotty7, Shanba, Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber, Untrod Tripod, Save the Dragons
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) -- MafiaSSK
petroleumjelly (4) -- Albert B. Rampage, VitaminR, LoudmouthLee, Bookitty
Porochaz (2) -- DrippingGoofball, Zorblag
Yosarian2 (1) -- Glork

That BooKitty wagon is pretty damn glorious.

[CrashTextDummie]

MafiaSSK is a town replace-out.

No, it's not. Perhaps DBG's town proclaimments wouldn't bother me as much if four fifths of them weren't this baffling.

CTD - What do you think of Yos post 568?

I think that midway through the post, he finally realized Tigris' name isn't Tigras! first On a more serious note, I think it's a solid piece of scum hunting on Yos' part and I'm beginning to lean town on him. Don't see it as a damning argument against LML though, I still haven't fully wrapped my head around his play.

Seriously, I wouldn't care if he random vote Tigris, and I wouldn't care if he voted Tigris because he thought Tigris was scummy. I also wouldn't care if he changed his mind. The way he's trying to have it both ways, though, feels scummy; it feels like he knew his Tigris vote was bad and was trying to distance himself from it, or else like he's trying to do a lot of tapdancing to make it look like his scumhunting was more honest then it actually was.

Oh I see what you're getting at now, Sotty. It's a remarkably similar argument to the one I made against MafiaSSK. I disagree with Yos' conclusions here mainly because I think the quote from LML's #302 is a sufficiently reasonable explanation for what was going on. I'd be interested in hearing Yos' thoughts on MafiaSSK in light of this post though.

You know DGB like to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, right?

She's actually mostly been throwing flowers at the wall, which generally don't stick at all.

I'm going to be charitable and assume there's something here I misunderstood. Caught for the wrong reasons?

I'm thankful someone else picked up on this.

I never got a very strong read, but felt null to scum based on posts. The replace-out (agreement with DGB) seems like a pro-town replace out than a scum replace out. There really wasn't any more pressure on MafiaSSK.

Is pressure the only reason scum would replace out?

Post 602 is solid scum hunting by undo. He can be town.

BooKitty's #604, in which she declares herself a good lynch, strikes me as calculated and survivalistic. More specifically, it makes her preceding posts look survivalistic. It feels like when her rambling game summary didn't dissuade people from voting her, she changed tactics (literally announcing that she wasn't going to continue her analysis) and tried a different approach to get people to sympathize with her. It definitely doesn't seem like catching scum is high on her agenda.

Not remembering the reason you suspect someone. In my experience you are significantly more likely to forget reasons you had to make up than reasons you actually felt and reached yourself.

I agree.

This type of speculation seems VERY odd to me. I need to admit, I have NEVER heard of this role before, and would have NEVER assumed it to be part of the game. Considering this to be a game of Oldy Mafia, I find it somewhat telling that people would assume a role that was not prevalent "in the good old days" would be here. WIFOMing the setup and the mod seems so odd in this case, and moreso, because this seems like a special role.

@Rest of you -> Have you heard of this encryptor before?

I assume that Patrick has kept the setup reasonably old school and that no roles are in it that old farts are not familiar with. That doesn't change the fact that PJ's theory has merit.

Hey. Not my meta, but I find it especially odd that no one at all has called out CTD for being active all over the site, but largely ignoring this game. Some of y'all hated my VCA for calling out the vote switchers, saying that I'm ignoring the people under the radar.

Nope. Some of YOU are the ones talking out of both sides of the mouth.

FoS: CtD, and anyone else on a lurker hunt who didn't call him out.

"All over the site" is hyperbolic, but a fair observation otherwise.

No, CES, she soft-claimed VT when she said lynch me. If she were scum she NEVER would have made the lynch-me post. I'm like 90% sure of it.

I disagree and I'm not sure why you're so sure of that wrong assumption.

do not lynch bookitty

This is still correct.

There's a persistent chorus of "do not lynch Bookitty" that contains Glork, Yos, ABR, GreenCrayons, DGB and maybe others. There are at least 2 scum in that list regardless of BooKitty's flip. I understand why Glork is singing the tune even if I disagree, but I don't remember seeing compelling reasoning from the rest.

Also, DGB and mathcam are probably town.

Elaborate.

[CrashTextDummie]

Started skimming towards the end there, but I'm mostly caught up.

unvote, vote: BooKitty

ABR should be vigged.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'll go back and highlight the stuff in my catch up posts I'd actually like a response to, but maybe not today depending on time.

[CrashTextDummie]

So UT didn't provide an explanation as much as LML did and that's the difference?

More or less. LML put his actions in a context that I can see as plausible coming from town whereas MafiaSSK kept trying to sell his Tigris suspicion as more legitimate than it was.

I've been saying that Bookitty was a bad lynch since even before the whole VT claim thing that other people are talking about. It just feels like if we lynch her, she'll probably flip town.

Yeah, you've called the wagon "kind of weak" and called here recent "last words" type posts town. Frankly, I don't see how that translates into you resisting a deadline VT lynch.

It feels like at every point of the day today, ABR has avoided taking the "easy road" on basically every wagon[...]

Agreed. It feels like a strategy to me. It's not like he's over-exerting himself by being a contrarian given his playstyle. The timing of his LML 180 is particularly suspect to me.

[...]has been passionate at the right moments[...]

Passionate about what? If he was actually passionate about avoiding a BooKitty lynch, he'd give reasons for why he's town reading the slot. It's not like he's incapable of doing it. And if he was actually passionate about lynching PJ, he wouldn't have jumped on CES the moment Glork started giving him the stink eye.

Interesting that CTD lists five players and claims that 2/5 of them are scum regardless of Bookitty's alignment, yet doesn't seek to puruse this 40% chance.

I like the chance of BooKitty flipping scum just as much. You seem to have misplaced a FoS there.

@CTD: Is your second-strongest scum suspect currently mathcam/mafiassk? How have cam's fifteen posts struck you thus far, and why haven't you commented on them or asked him any questions? Are you pushing for an ABR vig because you believe mathcam is more lynchable tomorrow, or because you find ABR more suspicious, or... ?

I haven't put much thought into the relative strengths of my reads, that's for tomorrow. Mathcam's posts so far haven't particularly struck me. Is there anything specific you think I should have noted? I'm pushing for an ABR vig because he clearly has no intention of answering pertinent, direct questions or to participate in the discussion in any meaningful way. That's an ideal vig shot in my book.

Out of commission for the next ~8 hours. I will not vote Bookitty, but I will broaden my vote bubble as deadline approaches.

Why do you consider no lynch to be preferable to a BooKitty lynch?

[CrashTextDummie]

Not an optimal lynch, but not a terrible one either.

unvote, vote: LML

[CrashTextDummie]

Will post tonight.

[CrashTextDummie]

Bookitty (7) -- Sotty7, Shanba, Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber, mathcam, undo, CrashTextDummie

We need to lynch from this player pool.

Vote: mathcam

Why not this player pool:

Kublai Khan (2) -- DrippingGoofball, LoudmouthLee
Porochaz (1) -- inHimshallibe
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) -- Albert B. Rampage

?

I have no reason to trust PJ. I can't say that I know for certain that he's scum though.

Unvote, vote UT

This is acceptable.

Right.

Jesus that above post (bookitty's) is so town and explains a lot for me I just have one question.

I don't think that post is as strongly indicative of BooKitty town as you seem to, but it does make me feel a bit better about her, as it somewhat mitigates the rather large issue of how BooKitty suddenly arrived at such a strong scum read on LML.

Instead of merely going with a "look at the bandwagon" route, I went and reread the game with LML-is-scum tinted glasses. That was neat. And time consuming. Also I might have just been skimming at the end.

I would like to know how you reread the game with LML-is-scum tinted glasses and arrived at town reads on DGB and ABR.

@CTD: it's super weird that LML zeroed in on you in Post 661 for posting elsewhere on the site, but not in this thread. Like, why would he be checking to see if you, specifically, were posting elsewhere, as opposed to any of the other players in this game? Thoughts as to why that might be? Do you know what other areas of the site LML saw you posting?

There's only one area of the site he could have seen me posting in, as I am active in only one other game. The reason he would point this out was either to invite this line of questioning or to prepare an attack against me. You are asking me to guess though and you could have figured this out yourself. Another rather pointless inquiry on your part.

This is a bad vote. I am totally convinced PJ is obvtown now. The way that LML went after PJ seemed genuine, more real then his other attacks; LML he was really trying to lynch PJ, both because PJ was trying to lynch LML and because PJ looked lynchable. One of the big scumtells I had on LML was the difference between the PJ vote, who he seemed like he was really trying to lynch, and his other wagons, which looked like he didn't really care.

:goodposting:

DGB looks a little worse now, with her absurd "I'd rather lynch no one then LML" stuff at the end of the day; when would you ever rather no-lynch then lynch on day 1? This would be a bigger scumtell if it wasn't so blatent, but it's still pretty disturbing.

"Blatant" is pretty much the subtitle of DGB's scum handbook.

It's fucking HORRIBLE strategy to try to save a doomed Mafia Goon on Day One, when as soon as either you OR the goon in question dies, the other one is probably going to follow soon after. LML was dead weight. The play at that point is to cut your losses, not to try to carry that dead weight to victory. I think that LML's lament about being bused is at least partly true, because even he knew he was dead weight when he refused to claim, complained about being the lynch, then tried to claim Doc.

Disagree about LML having been "dead weight". BooKitty is living proof that narrowly surviving a deadline lynch can leave you in a pretty comfortable position. I don't think you've looked particularly villainous this game Glork, but we seriously aren't on the same wavelength here, reads-wise or otherwise.

Lynch mathcam. PLEASE lynch mathcam. EVERYBODY.

RABBLE RABBLE

ABR – he too pushed for LML votes early on, but unlike VitR, he didn’t present any solid motives for it. Still, he generally advocated for his lynch during the game. Plus, he was attacked by LML in post 110.

That is quite a head scratcher of an analysis. ABR was arguably the biggest advocate for not lynching LML.

Will post tonight.

inHim grabs a notepad and pen, writes down "CTD" on a page, tears it off, folds it, and sticks it into his pocket.

vote: CTD

I am in awe of the intricate and in-depth analysis you are putting on display.

Not much else I feel like commenting on, though I started skimming towards the end.

ABR is probably somewhat scummier to me than DGB, but she's a good lynch as well. Same goes for mathcam and, to a lesser extent, BooKitty still.

vote: DGB

[CrashTextDummie]

So ABR & I are bus'ing mathcam according to your scum road map?

Not very likely.

- What is this one other area of the site, specifically, that you're active in?

Would you like me to break site rules? I can't tell you anything more other than there's one other game I am active in.

- I'm asking for your speculation as to why LML-scum decided to focus on you, and on this particular aspect of your play. You know, because people usually look at who known scum suspected, and the strength of those reasons, in order to look for scum buddies. Your input, as the focus of LML's suspicion, is helpful for me to suss out your alignment.

I've given you the only answer I have. I can't read minds and I don't have inside knowledge into the machinations of the scumteam this game. If you want to speculate that LML pointing out my lack of activity here in relation to activity elsewhere is indicative of us being scum together, that's your business, but I literally see no point in asking me to speculate on the matter.

[CrashTextDummie]

- It's wrong on its face because ABR was pro-lynching LML for a good majority of the day, with the only lull in that being after LML's post-weekend revivial. Hardly a contender for the title you want to bestow upon ABR.
- But it's also wrong in terms of who was the biggest "don't lynch LML" advocate. That would be Glork.

a) upon checking ABR's ISO, it's true that I overstated the extent of ABR's "don't lynch LML" campaign. I probably misattributed some of his pro-BooKitty posts based on memory.
b) Glork ended up on the LML lynch, so he is a smaller "don't lynch LML" advocate than ABR by default.

[CrashTextDummie]

Why are BooKitty and mathcam not voting? The former in particular doesn't seem to have a strong stance on anyone or anything whatsoever today.

The ABR miniwagon is appealing, but the DGB megawagon is good enough.

MBL is asking way too many questions with much too little analysis.

True. It's a very MBL way to play though. IIRC, he nearly caused heart attacks by not taking action until the very last moments in the last Oldy game. I have some small misgivings about his play and I would have liked him to look more town to me (he almost always does when he is in fact town), but I'm not too bothered at this point.

It suggests that Albert B. Rampage has fairly artificial suspicions given that his single sentence must be read to have two mistakes in order to make any sense.

ABR has fairly artificial everything. Town reads, scum reads, strategic notions on which player pools to lynch from, etc. You name it, it's artificial.

Out of curiosity, what defines the wagon du jour?

A very pertinent question that I hope DGB will have an amusing answer to.

This is basically how I feel about her (the blind spot, not necessarily being scum).

I'm having no trouble seeing Sotty (looks pretty town to me) and this whole paragraph from you strikes me more as "laying the groundwork for a wagon" than anything else. I suppose I finally settled on you as the 5th man on my "needs to die" list.

[CrashTextDummie]

The ABR miniwagon is appealing, but the DGB megawagon is good enough.

FOS buddy, vote townie?

OMGUS and reversal of a "never lynch" town read. Phase 1 and 2 of a classic DGB-scum meltdown in one post. Pile on your votes if you want to see the fabled DGB super flail.

[CrashTextDummie]

PEdit: CTD, why are you asking about Bookie/mathcam and not the people who have been even less involved than those two? That comment is baffling, to say the least. (I realize you partially answe this for MBL, but you seem to only be halfway there.)

Undo is evidently mid-analysis. I understand the misgivings Chamber and others have about his play, but attacking him before allowing for a follow up seems to me to be jumping the gun a bit.

[CrashTextDummie]

Also, being less involved and not voting seems less problematic to me than being involved but not voting (or not taking actual stances in BooKitty's case, at least I theoretically know who mathcam suspects).

[CrashTextDummie]

Sotty, I find your recent case against me fairly disturbing. Not so much that you're eyeballing me as a potential LML-buddy, but that you prepared this line of attack yesterday in the absence of an LML flip and under the pretense of "trying to get a read on Yos and [me]".

To answer your accusation, LML's Tigris vote wasn't ambiguous. It was the 6th post of the day, a fake dice roll that clearly had no meaning (and couldn't have had any meaning) and that already disqualifies it from being an UT-tell. "I like my vote where it is" clearly signifies that randomness was replaced by suspicion, and Yos' argument basically arose because LML omitted this fact in #278 and then LML got a little weird when asked about it. I didn't pick up on this and I didn't think it strongly indicated LML-scum because there was no real discrepancy between LML's words and his actions, only weirdness under questioning.

Succinctly, the difference between LML and MafiaSSK's Tigris votes is this:
Why did LML vote Tigris? Because he rigged a dice roll to keep from voting himself in RVS.
Why did MafiaSSK vote Tigris? Because he was bandwagonning/random voting/suspicious/joking/making a point on theory, depending on who you ask to interpret the vote. MafiaSSK himself insisted it was legitimate suspicion, but it sure as hell didn't look that way.

You're right I didn't commit to an LML read. You are not right that I was "much ado about nothing where LML is concerned", I had him on my radar and my ISO reflects that. Please point out where my play was pro-LML (i.e. trying to help him out/trying to benefit from his lynch/trying in any way to push a scum agenda) or stop this nonsense.

------------

First impression of the undo wagon is that it doesn't seem strongly scum pushed based on my impression of participating players, but that the case is not very convincing. Undo has been mostly in the background for me and hasn't stood out in any way other than his early posting which I remember liking. I'll have to go back to reread his analysis now that he's done to get a proper feel for how genuine/artificial it is. In the mean time, my vote won't be going there.

As much as I sympathize with DGB, she's still scum.

More to follow.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm going back and forth on DGB. On one hand, I generally agree with MBL's impression of DGB's "glorious analysis" in that it looks sincere and grounds her previously rambling suspicions on some solid analysis and while I don't agree with all of her conclusions, it presents a pretty believable and cohesive town mindset. On the other hand, it shouldn't have taken a wagon on her for her to start formulating reasonable thoughts and in that light it looks survivalistic to me (even though she framed it as a manifesto to be used after her death).

I can't say I'm as convinced of her guilt as I was before, but I'm also not convinced of her innocence. Regardless, her wagon looks to be dead in the water and I'm willing to wait for some corpses to pile up to test her theories against before revisiting her.

One thing her analysis compelled me to do is ISO PJ vis-à-vis LML and the vote counts and megabus is right if he's indeed scum. Not only was he a prominent LML voter, he was arguably instrumental in turning the tide against him in favor of BooKitty when deadline came closer. The most compelling argument I've seen against him is how completely he dismissed the "bus" slip (positing that it was actually deliberately planted) and the notion of looking for potential LML-bussers. Even if you don't think LML slipped, there's not really any doubt that he was indeed bussed to some extent and DGB is completely right that trying to downplay the bussing aspect of the LML wagon holds strong scum motivation for someone who's a potential busser himself.

I also agree that LML's part in the PJ/LML interaction looks somewhat suspect on a second look and MBL's assertion that LML is bus-happy (to say the least) is sound I believe. I don't think there's much of an argument that PJ's conduct towards LML is more likely a bus than a solid piece of scumhunting though.

--------

Also took another look at undo. His D1 posting looks mostly fine to me (pending some flips, BooKitty/mathcam in particular), with the only real blemish that he missed out on the end of day action and lacks substantive LML interaction as a result. His play today is indeed problematic. His selection process looks arbitrary no matter how much he tried to dress it up and his conclusions (3 town reads) mostly reflect that. He could have drawn 5 names out of a hat and probably would have ended up with a similar spread of reads, so I agree that it feels like analysis for the sake of analysis and doesn't show as much scum hunting drive as I feel it was supposed to. I also agree with CES that it feels off for him to seemingly abandon his previous suspicions completely and his justifications for this don't ring true to me.

--------

Unrelated to current developments, Sotty's attack against me caused me to check out her ISO and I recant my previous town read. Her conduct towards LML is actually fairly suspicious: She attacked him very hard for a significant portion of the game without ever voting him and then went progressively more and more soft on him as the day went on, going from "LML is probably scum" to "I could be convinced to vote LML in a compromise" to "I'm not buying the scum slip simply because the rest of that post sounded like frustrated town to me" and fought pretty damn hard to lynch BooKitty over him.

This is not supposed to be a comprehensive case, more of an update on a read.

[CrashTextDummie]

Not sure what the vote count is, but I believe the undo wagon has more strength whereas the PJ wagon has more momentum.

Neither wagon is completely terrible and I think it's time to see some claims.

unvote, vote: undo

[CrashTextDummie]

unvote, vote: mathcam

ABR also works.

[CrashTextDummie]

This is in contrast to, for example, CrashTextDummie's stream-of-consciousness posts, which I noted a suspiciously distinct lack of commentary on LoudmouthLee even though I would fully expect there were in fact many things CrashTextDummie would pick up on or comment about.

PJ, I can't help the fact that LML didn't stand out much to me, and I don't particularly feel like I should have to defend myself for it. LML's early play in particular didn't pique my interest and I acknowledged later on when people started making decent arguments against him (mostly Yos). I made a conscious effort to keep my catch up posts short-ish and I might have commented more on LML otherwise, but probably not.

Glork is towards the bottom of the list of people I'm willing to lynch. I think he's been among the people most actively scum hunting and his LML interaction looks more consistent with a misguided town read than a scumbuddy rescue effort to me. UT would be an acceptable compromise to me, he hasn't done anything to look town and while he's not the obvious scum bag he was in the previous game, I think there's a fair chance he'll flip red. Or, you know, ABR, who's VitR case in large parts hinges on mathcam-town, which is yet another complete read reversal on a wagon he helped build only to suddenly put the brakes on.

Sotty: How familiar are you with my scum meta?

[CrashTextDummie]

aaaaaaaaand we're splitting the wagons again

good work team! this can't possibly fail!

Considering you're contributing to the splitting of votes yourself, your lament rings pretty hollow.

unvote, vote: DGB

There, now you're on the smallest wagon. Do your part and consolidate instead of whining incessantly.

[CrashTextDummie]

I am not voting Glork.

If I absolutely have to, I will vote DGB to avoid no-lynch.

If you were actually serious about not wanting to lynch Glork, you would have switched your vote then and there.

Very frustrating vote from chamber as well.

I'll switch to Glork in an hour if nothing happens.

[CrashTextDummie]

unvote, vote: Glork

[CrashTextDummie]

Good effort BooKitty, but Glork has been hammered.

[CrashTextDummie]

ABR still as gracious in defeat as he is at playing the game I see. If VitR had taken his cue from me and vigged him on N1, he could have saved the town a tremendous amount of pain and suffering.

Grats to the scum, who I think played well.

[CrashTextDummie]

Forgot to say that it was a pleasure and a privilege to play with this bunch of oldies again, particularly those who came out of prolonged hibernation. <3