NY 170: Georgetown II (Game Over)
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emeraldemon
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emeraldemon Goon
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Hi team. I am very new, I have exactly one finished game (here if you're curious). I will try to keep up though.
Can this happen in a vanilla game? The signup post just says "no PRs", so I guess it is still possible, as well as maybe serial killer or something similar?In post 70, Slandaar wrote: I have an inkling that it's multiball.
And
VOTE: Acidic_TACO
because you are at the top of the page.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Re: bulba, gotta start somewhere I guess.
re: slandaar, honestly I was asking more of a rules question. There is a list of things not allowed in normal games, but I don't really know if "vanilla" carries strict rules about what it can and can't have. Looking more carefully at the first post it does say "As this is a vanilla game these are the only roles:", which makes me think it can't be multiball or have a SK.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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I know how to search a wikiIn post 87, Sotty7 wrote: You're new but you know what multiball is?
If I had to pick one I'd say town, but it's probably just null.In post 94, Garmr wrote: So do you think bulba's town or scum for that vote.
In post 106, Huntress wrote:In post 103, Chevre wrote:Huntress: Is there any way we could get clarification on this? As to what the definition of "mountainous" is, and does such a game type forbid multiple mafia teams?The wiki entry for "Mountainous" is the only definition I know. It simply refers to the lack of power roles.
If huntress had said "this setup cannot have multiball" that would have been very useful, so I think it was worth it to ask. As is, her response tells me that we can't rule it out, which is all I wanted to know.In post 107, Nobody Special wrote:I would say that 16:3 is far too out of balance to be approved as a Large Normal, so it's highly likely we're looking at 13:3:3.
That said, speculation on it is useless until Day Two.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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I think your vote is on acidic taco.In post 127, Garmr wrote:
The main point was he was using that to sneak a opportunistic vote under with out explaining himself. What do you think of his voting so far?In post 125, Maestro wrote:I don't read that as calling for a NL, Garmr
So everyone join the Aegor wagon or if you think I'm scum vote me let get things moving.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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#170 - this is actually the only post from emogirl I don't like. The rest of it is null.
#188 - garmr: "if one is scum the other is not of the same alignment." I dunno, are you sure?
#193 - Not sure if I like this vote either... or the waffly townread on me.
#200 - Ok Maestro is obvtown now
#204 - garmr again, you vote emogirl but you want to go back to arguing with aegor?
So... 170 aside, I don't really see anything scum in emogirl's posts. I don't think she's intentionally confusing, I think she's just confused. Not feeling great about garmr though.
vote: Garmr
@garmr I'd like to hear more about your emogirl vote please. Do you agree with bulba and maestro? Why do you think they are town?
pre-edit: i like you, ohgodmylife. Can we be friends?-
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emeraldemon
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emeraldemon Goon
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I'm kidding. That NOPE did make me laugh out loud though
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emeraldemon Goon
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I doubt the vote (133) was just for drama, especially sense she's been serious about scumreading you ever since. Hard to say what to call it exactly, but maybe revisionist history / not owning up to intent. If she wants to vote you she should vote without qualifying it, in my opinion.In post 250, Bulbazak wrote:
What don't you like about it?In post 247, emeraldemon wrote:#170 - this is actually the only post from emogirl I don't like. The rest of it is null.
But that alone doesn't make her scum necessarily.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Sorry for disappearing, I will be good and post now.
First thought, does Maestro actually have wagon summoning powers? It's worked twice so far, on emogirl and chevre. Is he being townread or does every just agree with his reads? Is there some meta / group history that I wouldn't know about?
So the emogirl wagon went like this:
maestro, NS, bulba, garmr, brian skies, Albert, maenara, chevre, kaboom
I don't really see why Chevre is the scummiest vote on this wagon. Given that people have said most scummy things about the votes from albert on, maybe it's something about joining the wagon late? It does seem like maybe the unvote from Chevre is scummy, but I'd love to know why no one thinks e.g. Brian Skies was scummy. Or NS for that matter.
@garmrIn post 207, Brian Skies wrote:Will actually read posts sometime this weekend.
Meanwhile, don't mind me slipping my vote onto the largest wagon.
VOTE: Emogirl
Since my vote is on you maybe I get to pick on you specifically. Is it just the unvote & explanation that is scummy from chevre? You were on the emogirl wagon also, why did you move? Do you still think emogirl is scum?-
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emeraldemon Goon
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In post 521, Sotty7 wrote:How has it worked twice? He was a big push behind the start of the emo but he was the 4th vote on a momentum wagon of Cherve. What do you think about him being on both wagons? As for your point on Brain Skies, I could see him as scum. His catch up posts aren't really bringing anything to the table and he might as well just jump in the deep in rather than spend forever on out of date catch posts to make it look like he is doing some work. He seems to be asking a lot of empty questions rather than scum hunting.Offtopic, your pic and ohgodmylife's look too similar, I keep confusing you two.
In my memory Maestro called out Chevre's vote right away, but it was actually Maenara's vote he called out (239), so I was wrong about the second wagon.
Maestro feels kinda town to me, at least I feel like I can understand the intention behind his posts and his votes. This game is really complicated to follow, but I have a slight townread on you and ohgodmylife, and a slight scumread on Chevre, although that's probably 75% sheeping. Garmr ignored my questions to him, so clearly my vote is ineffective where it sits.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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@zdenek
I won't fake a confidence I don't have, it will just sound fake and scummy. I like what you are saying about goodfather though.
Regarding my last game, nothing like having your first game be a scum win, right? But (1) This game is way more complicated, and (2) I stupidly decided to take on 4 games simultaneously.
I'm going to push harder in here, but I just think if you are using my meta to judge you should take that into account.
@sotty7
The avatars are fine, I like the xkcd, it's just weird to skim through at first.
So early game it seemed like you had a strongish scumread on maenara, now that zdenek replaced in does that affect your read on that slot?
The wall ending at 589 was not convincing to me at all, and I actually feel better about Chevre scum than I did before.
VOTE: Chevre
604: OGML "Chevre is town not for suddenly trying hard (that really should have happened without needing a major wagon to give you motivation) but because of the swarm of people already trying to lay blame for a chevre mislynch at the feet of ABR et. al. Somebody who *knows* he's town is feeding that fire."
611: Zdenek "Bulbazak and Yessiree?"
Tebow calls out Nobody Special for voting Chevre in 465, then doesn't like Albert's vote (485). Yessire thinks the Chevre wagon is bad in general, argues with Tebow about it. There's something wierd about Tebow simultaneously pushing for Chevre lynch and being suspicious of people getting on the wagon. Bulbazak also doesn't like Albert's vote (494).
I don't see anyone trying to lay blame for a Chevre mislynch, the only thing that feels a bit off is The Fonz / Tebow.
@The Fonz
Are you pushing for a Chevre lynch? Are you trying to make sure you only get the right kind of votes?
@bulbazak
What is your read on Chevre? Are you against the wagon?
There's a lot of mush in the middle of this list, but at least I have a better idea of who I'm suspicious of now.
TOWN
Sotty7
Maestro
Bulbazak
OhGodMyLife
emogirl123
Aegor
Zdenek [Maenara]
The Fonz [Tebow]
yessiree [WBOCampfire1104]
Garmr
Acidic_TACO
Slandaar
Albert B. Rampage
Nobody Special
kabooooom
The Goodfather
Brian Skies
Chevre
SCUM
@Chevre
Slandaar says your vote is just "lets lynch a lurker", do you agree? Do you have more to it than that?
I want to get invested in this game, so anyone who's online please ask me questions.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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This part:
It's hard to feel like the huge recap was relevent if this is the conclusion. I get that you're townreading Chevre, which makes you scumread me for voting him, but what makes you so sure he's not just buddying you? How many of those reads (scattered through lots and lots of text) really surprised you or made you go "huh, I didn't notice that"? Because if it didn't, maybe it's just a recap, and not scumhunting.In post 589, Chevre wrote: Slandaar (9, 12, 24) - It's not really because of the multiball discussion, obvioiusly; I have no problem with that, it just feels outside of that he's done relatively nothing. I'm interested to see what his "investigations" are.
Vote: Slandaar-
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emeraldemon Goon
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emeraldemon Goon
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(1) So Chevre doesn't have to be convincing because there is a disclaimer that it's a brain dump. Fair enough, but the brain dump felt like it could have been borrowed from someone else's brain (again, maybe yours?). I get the biggest town feel when I read someone's post and think "oh shit, you're right!". When I read and think "where have I heard this before?" I don't get that town vibe.In post 642, yessiree wrote:Whether or notIfind Chevre's wall convincing does not directly affect my read on him due to the following reason.
However, I find it odd that you reinforced your scumread on him just because you find that one little part at the end off. What is your read on slandaar?In post 623, Chevre wrote: I did the walls because I was in danger of being lynched and I wanted town to have as much of my perspective as possible. It isn't really pro-town, or at least not pleasant to do those things, but it was the only way to get my full feeling out there and I tried to make it as easy as possible with the indices.
(2) It's not "the one little part at the end". The vote is the most important part of the post. You thought my post was horribad, but you focused in on the vote, why? In some ways the vote is the only thing that matters. He posted three huge walls of catch-up (which you are not calling convincing) and then at the end I still felt like I got "oh yeah I guess I should vote someone".
I don't want to overstate my case here, I'm not convinced I've caught scum. In all honesty I considered voting Brian instead but I think there's a good chance he'll get replaced so I'm waiting on that.
I will talk about that and slandaar in the next post so I can pick up Aegor's question.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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A lot of these are in a "mildly scummy for not contributing" pile.
Brian Skies- probably going to get replaced, but the vote on emogirl without reading rubs me the wrong way, and the catchup posts are lots of semi-pointless comments. I specifically don't like "Considering the jumps from NS, Albert, and me, you sir have earned yourself a small townread." about the emogirl wagon. Handing out townreads is kinda scummy to me, especially saying "oh you noticed my vote is bad, please take this townread as appeasement".
The Goodfather- lurking, and voting b/c of a bad rickroll, and fluffy posts like 502 and 520. No effort. Swap out after pressure is a bit suspicious.
kabooooom- Could just be a confused newb like me, but could be trying to lurk the day out. I'm in another game with kabooom, which I can't talk about I guess.
Nobody Special- This is closer to null, but self-described coasting and riding easy wagons, the only time he stood up was to randomly vote acidic taco. The townblock stuff is probably a joke, but I still don't really like it.
- another easy hop on the emogirl wagon and again on the chevre wagon. I also don't like his "too confident" reason for voting emogirl, sounds forced. nullscum.
Albert B. Rampage
Slandaar- honestly similar to ABR and NS, lurking / coasting. He doesn't get on any wagons, just leaves his vote on goodfather without any poking. But with this I can't really call it scum, feels closer to null. That's really just gut, hard to distinguish scumminess and laziness at this stage.
I have to keep in mind that my own posting has been pretty lazy and wishy-washy up to now, so some of these are probably not scum, just busy and overwhelmed like I was. But if scum wants to hide in a big no-PR game, this is a good way to do it.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Sure, when you clip out my conclusion and questions, it looks like I'm not contributing. But why would you do that?In post 645, yessiree wrote:
Let's just take a quick snap.
I can go into details about how your question are useless if you want. But it makes you look like a hypocrite, no?In post 635, emeraldemon wrote: Tebow calls out Nobody Special for voting Chevre in 465, then doesn't like Albert's vote (485). Yessire thinks the Chevre wagon is bad in general, argues with Tebow about it. There's something wierd about Tebow simultaneously pushing for Chevre lynch and being suspicious of people getting on the wagon. Bulbazak also doesn't like Albert's vote (494).
I am no amazing scumhunter, but
(1) I don't think OGML's post about setting up for a Chevre mislynch was well founded, and I wanted to explain why
(2) the dissonance between Tebow's push for Chevre and his suspicion of the votes on the wagon seemed, well, dissonant, and I wanted to try to find out more.
If you think those thoughts are not my own and are sheeping someone else, point out where they've been said already, maybe I missed something.
Believe it or not I'm actually open to suggestions for better scumhunting, so if my questions are useless I'd like to know why. The only problem is if you are actually scum and leading me astray intentionally...-
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emeraldemon Goon
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emeraldemon Goon
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emeraldemon Goon
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emeraldemon Goon
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emeraldemon Goon
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Hey Brian,
Where is the Slandaar vote coming from?In post 712, Brian Skies wrote:
This guy is pure evil.In post 421, Slandaar wrote:Don't mind me I am just lurking.
Hmm. This post might be town.In post 467, Slandaar wrote:Maestro really feels like scum to me. Chevre not so much.
Loot/Maestro seriously looks like a team when you realise how quick Maestro was to dismiss Loot as a VI but not EG.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Well time is short and it looks like it's either gonna be slandaar or brian skies. I could see either as scum honestly but I think I will
VOTE: Brian Skies
I'm pretty sure 101 was sarcasm, and the "important investigations" was probably just BSing, not trying to fake a breadcrum. So... that doesn't leave much.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Thanks, this makes sense.In post 855, The Fonz wrote: When someone jumps on a wagon, even one you like, at a point and with and explanation (or lack thereof) that seems like scum piling on a mislynch, you reconsider the wagon. I pressed Albert for a bit, got a response I felt was town, and this then made me comfortable rejoining the wagon.
(1) I'm not sure where you're getting the "all the easy targets" thing. Slandaar's vote trajectory has been goodfather -> brian -> me. I could see my wagon being "easy target" (although I'm probably biased), brian maybe but probably not. And he wasn't on the emogirl wagon or the Chevre wagon.In post 855, The Fonz wrote:
On Brian Skies, his scumhunting is better than he's getting credit for. His case against Slandaar, when made clearly, is not just that Slandaar has been voting for easy targets, but that he's voting forallthe easy targets. Normally, a town player will read some of the poor players as scum, more so than the good players, but will have one or two where they feel the case is overblown and the player is trying, but bad. If you suspect all the 'low hanging fruit' then it seems, as Brian said, that you're not trying to sort through the pile. Brian's 'ten page lurk' was Thursday-Monday which seems more likely to be a 'real life intervened' break than a deliberate lurk.
(2) Brian's argument seemed based pretty heavily around two fake towntells, neither of which looked like faking a towntell to me.
This part I agree with.In post 855, The Fonz wrote:
Slandaar is trying to make the 'I'm a townie who's not that into it' case, which is a scum thing to say more often than random, but not a slamdunk. I really, really don't like his reaction to coming under fire, which feels like 'strawman your accuser as much as possible.'
I am still with you on the Chevre lynch also. And hey, ask me something.In post 855, The Fonz wrote: How-fuckin-ever, Chevre's not done any scumhunting since the wagon on him died. His 623 feels very reactive (and his response to why he did something he admits he doesn't think is pro-town is poor) while #715 just feels like posting for the sake of posting. I'd like people to reconsider this wagon.
Emerald is... unhhhh. Tough to read. Not today's lynch, I don't think.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Not sure what I'm supposed to do with this. Do you want me to guess why you think I'm scummy?In post 783, yessiree wrote:
This is horrible.In post 781, emeraldemon wrote:Well time is short and it looks like it's either gonna be slandaar or brian skies. I could see either as scum honestly but I think I will
VOTE: Brian Skies
I'm pretty sure 101 was sarcasm, and the "important investigations" was probably just BSing, not trying to fake a breadcrum. So... that doesn't leave much.
I'll need some time to digest the back and forth between Brain and Slandaar
UNVOTE:-
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emeraldemon Goon
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1) I did think they were the only lynch candidates for today. It was before the replace out and deadline extension; we had about 2 days (which we have now again think).In post 880, yessiree wrote:
"Looks like it's either A and B getting lynched today, I think either of them might be scum, so I'll hop on one of them."
This is scummy because
1) This effectively shakes off any accountability you have in the case of a townflip since your wording deliberately implies you think that they are the only lynch candidates for today.
2) Lining up for future lynches in the case of a townflip
3) Not attempting to refine your reads on the person you are voting, complacent to just see a lynch go through, whether or not the lynch will benefit town
2) Not really sure what you mean.
3) I feel like my questions have been productive for me at least
So let me ask you, who do you think are the possible lynch candidates for today?-
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emeraldemon Goon
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OK so I am anti-town for talking with you and Fonz instead of staying on Brian. Fair enough.In post 757, Brian Skies wrote:
He likes to throw fake towntells in the thread.In post 727, emeraldemon wrote:Where is the Slandaar vote coming from?
There's also some prejudice involved.
Hey Brian, I find your fake towntells unconvincing. Is Slandaar still scum?-
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emeraldemon Goon
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I did!In post 909, yessiree wrote: If you had reasons (i.e. found his fake towntells unconvincing), why didn't you specify that in the same post where you voted him?
101 was sarcasm = fake towntell #1. "important investigations" = fake towntell #2. Maybe it wasn't clear?In post 781, emeraldemon wrote:Well time is short and it looks like it's either gonna be slandaar or brian skies. I could see either as scum honestly but I think I will
VOTE: Brian Skies
I'm pretty sure 101 was sarcasm, and the "important investigations" was probably just BSing, not trying to fake a breadcrum. So... that doesn't leave much.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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@Chevre
Re: 1023
At the end you say sotty7 is the scummiest, "I never really found Sotty7's vote reasoning for Slandaar very in-depth, and then he switches off the wagon." But if you're looking for good vote reasons, why not vote Zekrom, who just writes "for reasons given" (904)?
Can you clarify for me why sotty was the scummiest vote on that wagon?
Also, you could call ABR a lot of things, but I don't think "wishy-washy" is one of them.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Where is this coming from?
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emeraldemon Goon
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This doesn't make sense, in the post you quoted Thor explains why Aegor's vote on Zekrom seems suspicious to him, so what is he diverting?In post 1086, Garmr wrote:More examples of answering with questions to divert.
I was one of the ones on the Brian wagon, but Thor's posts have seemed pretty town to me.-
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@Zdenek
Never got an answer to this. Early in the day you said you thought Chevre could be a good lynch, what do you think now?
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emeraldemon Goon
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I was asking about Chevre?In post 1133, Zdenek wrote:I have a hard time seeing scum Aegor defending Brian Skyes the way he did at the end of day one.-
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Questions for everyone!
@inHimshallibe
What is your read on Tony PR [emogirl]? Do you disagree with Bulba's case?
@Zdenek
What do you think about what inHimshallibe said in 979, that scum ABR wouldn't push hard on a town wagon day 1?
@Tony PF
You say you liked Chevre's analysis in 1118, but I thought Chevre concluded that the NK didn't point to ABR. Which part are you agreeing with?
@Nobody Special
Why are you voting ABR? Also, you voted Chevre yesterday, what made you decide he's town?
@Chevre
What is your read on Bulba? Did his arguments sway you in voting Tony PR [emogirl]?
OK I lied, the rest of you are boring to me and get no questions.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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In post 1203, Nobody Special wrote:
I am voting ABR because he's scum.In post 1191, emeraldemon wrote:Questions for everyone!
@Nobody Special
Why are you voting ABR? Also, you voted Chevre yesterday, what made you decide he's town?
I don't recall saying that I thought Chevre was town, I'm just not voting him at the moment because, sadly, I have but one vote.
Ineffectual town is still town yes?In post 1035, Nobody Special wrote:
Ineffectual town.In post 1034, Thor665 wrote:
That's not really what the discussion is about.In post 1026, Nobody Special wrote:I do not understand how a discussion of my meta vs. ABR's meta is in any way useful.
What is your read on Chevre?-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Agree.In post 1228, The Fonz wrote:Like, does anyone have any reason whatsoever for not reading Nobody Special as scum? Is it not considered scummy any more to emerge from a lurk to put a vote on a non-contributor, and in other sundry ways just say nothing of value on day one? Today, he's parked his vote on the biggest wagon with no reason. Also his point about why Tony chose to read ABR in ISO had already been answered in thread when he said it - Tony ISO'd Albert because he was the player that was 'flavor of the week' ie the one everyone was talking about.
VOTE: Nobody Special
Also I'd still like to know why NS changed his read on Chevre to town and then apparently forgot about it.
And still waiting on this one:
@Zdenek
What do you think about what inHimshallibe said in 979, that scum ABR wouldn't push hard on a town wagon day 1 because it burns towncred?-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Yeah, I don't really know how this works, but I'd rather Zekrom be modkilled or force-replaced than lynched if possible.
For what it's worth, he wasn't so blatantly anti-town in Newbie 1464 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=36006 . He was scum that game.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Like Zdenek said, NS has never mentioned Aegor prior to that post (I assume we're talking about 1355).In post 1373, Thor665 wrote:The other consideration is NS. Now, I'll admit, I'd feel better about this if we had gotten a wagon worth "anything at all" on him first. But, he was still the biggest wagon, and as soon as a counter wagon starts up his immediate reaction is to light defend Aegor. Now, I'm faaar too lazy right now to check, but could someone go back into his ISO and see if he had already expressed pro-town thoughts about Aegor? If the answer is "no" then I would very much like to turn the Aegor wagon around and just speed lynch NS for lulz. If the answer is "yes" ...eh...at that point it becomes muddier for me, and I probably advocate lynching Aegor because then NS' reaction looks a bit more townish.
I think NS is a good lynch, but I don't really follow why NS defending Aegor makes NS scummier? Are you implying NS and Aegor are scum buddies?-
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emeraldemon Goon
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I disagree with this, especially about The Fonz. He's probably my #1 townread right now.In post 1402, Zdenek wrote:I'm worried about Fonz and Sotty because they are both capable players who have decided to be rather pathetic in this game.
Also is it a coincidence that you're worried by players who are worried about you? Is this like a non-voting OMGUS?-
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emeraldemon Goon
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@Zdenek
The early argument between Bulba and Fonz wasn't a strong tell, but it had all the vibes of town vs. town to me.
592, 855, and 985 all sound like someone who is reading closely for clues and trying to sort players.
Especially his answer to my question in 855 felt very town to me. He wasn't just pushing a wagon, he wanted to know where players were coming from.
So why are you worried?-
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emeraldemon Goon
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emeraldemon Goon
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emeraldemon Goon
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Just FYI this was L-1 on Nobody Special unless I miscounted.In post 1483, Chevre wrote:Vote: Nobody Special-
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emeraldemon Goon
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emeraldemon Goon
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Time is freeing up for me, let's kick this game's ass!
VOTE: Aegor
@kaboom
The mod still hasn't officially called 1468 over so I wouldn't talk about that game yet.
@Aegor
It's one thing to go for the biggest wagon when there's three days left. We have more than a week left. I refuse to believe we can't do better than a policy lynch. Yet your favorite wagons have been Zekrom, Kaboom, ABR. What are your reads? You didn't like Chevre's vote Day 1, have you changed your mind?
TOWN
Thor665
Sotty7
Garmr
Bulbazak
inHimshallibe
HighShroomish
Rainbowdash
Zdenek
Albert B Rampage
Kaboom
Matias
Nero Cain
Chevre
Aegor
SCUM
I'm not convinced on the ABR lynch. At least Thor and Zdenek are posting reasons, but I feel like way too many people just see ABR as a lurker slot with votes on. If you want to policy lynch a lurker, you should start a wagon on Matias.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Bulba, vote Aegor, this is scummier than Highshroomish by a mile.In post 1646, Bulbazak wrote:In post 1645, Aegor wrote:
Both? Either?In post 1642, Bulbazak wrote:
Are you looking for the easiest lynch or a lynch on scum?In post 1639, Aegor wrote:I was voting kab earlier in the game. ABR is at L-1. Forgive me for thinking that he is the easiest lynch at this point. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than lynching kab tomorrow.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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Scum has a good motivation to keep lynching lurkers, especially town ones. The longer scum can keep town lynching based on activity level, the longer scum can stay alive just by posting semi-frequently.In post 1659, Zdenek wrote:It's a bad stance for Aegor to take, but I'm thinking that it's genuine and that there's no reason for him to take it as scum.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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This also, trying to set up a second policy lynch tomorrow? Weren't you talking about lynching Garmr tomorrow?In post 1645, Aegor wrote:
I agree completely. But all those posts are now part of this game's record, and their authors can be held accountable if they refuse to vote kab tomorrow.In post 1643, Rainbowdash wrote: Exactly that. There is the issue.
. Never even mentioning him until I press the issue and the rest of the game is lurking not even talking about the wagon. The fact that I am probably fighting the wagon the most while saying "yeah its an okay lynch" it feels wrong. Good for information still yes, but wrong.
Most of the ABR wagon seems to be going "oh yeah but kab wagon is fine" but have been avoiding it-
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emeraldemon Goon
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In my mind NS wasn't just a lurker lynch. Obviously he was town and my read was wrong, but two things in particular bugged me: hopping blindly on the ABR wagon at the start of day 2 (957), and calling Chevre town (1035) but then backing off when I pressed him about it (1203). Also there were a few posts that just felt like fake-contributing, like 1074 and 1174.In post 1661, Zdenek wrote:Yet you were defending The Fonz yesterday - calling him your strongest town read, while he was pushing the lurker NS lynch.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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emeraldemon Goon
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We have six days left. It isn't necessary for everyone to be on the biggest two wagons. But more importantly, you should sheep me and vote Aegor.In post 1701, Thor665 wrote:
A listing of people whose votes are currently doing jack and spit.In post 1690, Huntress wrote:HighShroomish (1) - Bulbazak
Aegor (1) - emeraldemon
inHimshallibe (1) - Zdenek
Bulbazak (1) - Nero Cain
Not voting (3) - kabooooom, Garmr, Matias
It's a depressingly large list of people.
Let's work on this and make it a less shameful list.
I don't even know what to say about this. I will work out an Aegor case in another post.In post 1709, Aegor wrote:KILL ABR KILL ABR KILL ABR KILL ABR KILL ABR
VOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTE-
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emeraldemon Goon
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OK, we all know that Aegor's favorite thing is policy lynching lurkers (e.g. 963, 1303, 1308, 1362), and his second favorite thing is hopping on the largest wagon (431, 666, 963, 1377, 1440, 1570, 1618). His style is mostly voting without posting any reason (277, 431, 1253, 1337, 1440), and the one time anyone pushed him he self-voted (1343). By my count he has either voted for or said he would lynch Garmr, ABR, Kaboom, Chevre, Slandaar, Matias, inHim, Zekrom, Thor, NS, and Zdenek.
But wait, you say. While that noise surely doesn't help town, can you really call it scum motivated? In a sea of anti-town players, what makes Aegor stand out from the crowd? I argue that Aegor is not just anti-town; he is scummy.
1) It's not just that he wants to lynch lurkers. He insists that there is no better use of our days and our lynches. He has said repeatedly that there is no useful information in the game so far (1351, 1378). He doesn't try to scumhunt; he doesn't want us scumhunting.He wants to draw attention away from actual debateand make it seem like "OMG guys lurkers everywhere" is useful content.
2)The only time he's been under any kind of pressure, he panicked, self-voted, and grossly exaggerated the amount of danger he was in. Check out the classic "Just promise when I flip town that you'll lynch Zekrom and kaboom and maybe Thor" (1345) even though he was nowhere near lynch, wasn't even really a wagon. It's really worth rereading the Thor/Aegor argument, especially Thor's 1366 and 1373.
3)The only wagon he hasn't hopped on was emogirl's.Literally every other wagon, he joined, typically with comments like (471) "Can we please lynch Chevre already? I daycop investigated him. He is scum." or "KILL ABR KILL ABR KILL ABR KILL ABR KILL ABR" (1709). This isn't just near the deadline, to avoid a no-lynch. This is anytime a wagon looked like it was gaining momentum. A town player worries about whether or not they are making the right lynch. A scum player knows exactly who needs lynching, and scum needs to lynch almost everyone eventually. Who do we know who wants almost every player in the game lynched?
One of these things in isolation might be frustrated/misguided town, but the three of them together make Aegor my strongest scumread.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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I think he's scummy, but not my first pick. I still think there's a chance he's town and just got overwhelmed. Does him replacing out tell anything to you either way? Do you think he'd be more likely to replace out as scum (or town)?In post 1713, Thor665 wrote: What's your ABR read?-
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emeraldemon Goon
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You are proposing a procedure where we give up on scumhunting and spend (2? 3? how many?) more days lynching lurkers. But if you were just town with a bad idea, that wouldn't bother me. I think if you were town you would actually care about where the wagons were going, and not join all of them indiscriminately. I think if you were town you would ask people questions, try to sort us, point out things that seemed funny or strange to you.In post 1716, Aegor wrote:That is such a misrepresentation. I am not opposed to scumhunting. It is just that before this case, Bulba is the only freakin' player who has actually attempted to construct a case or probe anyone in any significant way. This game suffers from massive lethargy, and I do not have the energy to resurrect it by myself. It is ridiculous to claim that I am suppressing scumhunting when in fact I am just proposing a rational procedure given a game with no scumhunting in it.
Since I do actually want to sort you, let me ask you some questions about the scumhunting that you say doesn't exist:
1) Nero Cain thinks he found a scumslip from Bulbazak 1687. Do you agree? What's your read on Nero [Tony PF [emogirl]]?
2) You wanted Zekrom's blood, but he's been replaced by Rainbowdash. Do you still want that slot lynched? What do you think of Rainbowdash's vote?
3) ABR is replacing out, if he is replaced by an active player will that still be your #1 lynch priority?
This isn't even looking back very far, this is just stuff from the last few pages. Are you still going to claim there's no content in this game?-
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emeraldemon Goon
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3 days left.
OK, so you're saying his actions are consistent with his opinions, which is null. But both his actions and his opinions are scummy. Scum has good reason to do the things he's been doing and town doesn't. Lamenting that this game is a black hole is a great excuse never to contribute. Policy lynches are a great way to delay and avoid actual scumhunting. All of his opinions are geared towards justifying his antitown actions, so of course they are consistent.In post 1743, Zdenek wrote:The thing about Aegor is that whatever case people have raised against him based on what he's been doing fits well with the opinions that he's been expressing. While I don't doubt that he could fake it as scum, it makes all of it quite null.
Sotty, you asked why I thought Aegor was scum, what do you think now?
Chevre, what is your read on Aegor?
DisCode, have you read anything? Deadline is close and the game is long, maybe just read the most recent 10 pages or so to see what we are doing now.
I don't want to give up on this just yet, but deadline is close so I want to have a plan B. Someone on the kaboom wagon explain to me why that's preferable to ABR?-
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emeraldemon Goon
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VOTE: Albert B. Rampage
L-2.
0) save Huntress the trouble of finding a replacement
1) Spending another day arguing about ABR just sounds like a waste
2) I will sheep Thor, and I will avoid the wagon Aegor is pushing
Aegor, let's talk some more tomorrow. This day won't end in no-lynch, just like none of the others did, and the lynch won't be because of your hysterics. If you are town please think about this.-
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emeraldemon Goon
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emeraldemon Goon
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emeraldemon Goon
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OK, I am caught up, but it's late and I will have to work on this more tomorrow. A few quick things:
0) I'm actually really stoked that we got a scum kill, we finally have something with traction instead of groping in the dark. I need to reread, but my feeling is that this flip means Thor is town. When he came in with the meta case yesterday, the ABR wagon was waning. I don't know Thor's meta, but that would be a really aggressive bus. At some point I need to spend time rechecking the ABR wagon(s) for clues.
1) I just finished a game with scum kaboom: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=36651 . That game had some serious problems, but it might be worth checking out. kaboom has lurked a lot more in this game, but a newbie is easier than a large game like this.
2) I don't really see the NK helping us at all, the flip would have made Zdenek close to conftown anyway, so it's an obvious scum choice.
3) Aegor is trying a slightly different tactic today, posting cases and arguing pretty hard, mostly with bulba. Nothing to change my read though, and 1924 really rubs me the wrong way. "Lynch me now or never speak of day 2 again" is a pretty crappy thing to ask from town. In this case I wouldn't mind obliging.
VOTE: Aegor-
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emeraldemon Goon
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