NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[talah]

Hi Deas! You town this time?

VOTE: mastin2

Hi mastin!

[talah]

Your entrance to this game is not genuine.

*yawn*

Actually I know more folks playing here than I realised, so -general hello- and down to business.

@Mister, not genuine

how

?

[talah]

I am talah! Are you town?

Yuppers, sure am.

Well this is good news! Perhaps if mastin is town too we shall be an unstoppable scumhunting force.
Or the first three nightkills ><

O_o

That's even more scumtastic.

1) Have you ever played with DV before in a game?
2) Please explain how "knowing more people" relates to your actions upon entering this game.

Obfuscation is now added to the lack of sincerity.

Very good. I see you have totally ignored my question "Ingenuine

how

?", and added obfuscation, and changed ingenuine to insincere. If you could be a bit more clear in your thoughts it will help me to develop a read on you.

1) Considering your 2) it's strange that you ask this. Because you are saying that having played with people is not game related, or is insincere, or ingenuine (actually I don't know what you're specifically saying because you never clarified just what it was that you found not genuine, but rather steamrolled on with an 'obfuscation' accusation), and here you are asking me to provide *more* information which you apparently find scummy.

The answer is Yes: I've played with Deas (who I think is fun), and mastin (who I see somewhat as a mentor), and Pere, and Smudger, and Nero Cain, and one other player under an undisclosed alt. I also know RachMarie as she modded my first game.
So I'm conversant with several

personalities

in this game, and I think that will aid me in getting reads on players.

2) Probably answered in the above unless you have something more specific or clear to ask.


UNVOTE: mastin
VOTE: Doc

[talah]

- Answer my question about what you found ingenuine

- I think I just realised what the fuck you're talking about regarding "MOAR" people, and the reason I mentioned it was that I actually said "Hi!" To Deas, then Pere posted and I hadn't noticed he was in the playerlist (and then spotted a couple others)

- I'm sheeping Deas to get a more solid read on him, and I think his vote on Doc was legit

- I'm also aware of shitting up the thread when only a handful of folks have posted so far, so here's a hint and an adieu: I'm town and you're barking up the wrong tree if you are too.

[talah]

I got major suspicion on Deas during RVS last time we played together. I wasn't burned at all.

Dunno how you form reads, but I tend to like to interact in different ways with people and assess whether I think their responses are genuine or not, and whether they make sense and are consistent with the gamestate.

Anyway, carry on.

[talah]

Ffs, can you let me get back to cleaning my house for my rental inspection on Tuesday? I'll take any other interrogation on notice for the next 24 hours, kay?

Deas is a dude unless I have alzheimers. Mobile Suit Gundam SEED in large themes topic.

I think Deas voting Doc for (Doc) making a vote which was "fuck that guy", deserved pressure because it was a bad vote, but mainly I like the fact that he (Deas) latched onto it and naked voted because I think that he (Deas) tends to get over-explanatory as scum, dotting i's and crossing t's where town probably wouldn't. So I liked it fine and given my mastin vote was pure RVS and reaction-fishing, and mastin hasn't posted, switched quite happily to simultaneously get a better read on Deas, and find out what Doc was about.

No results yet because I'm being hijacked by you. Nevertheless I'm noting the Pere/Admiral interaction. Dunno what to think about bjc or Doc yet, maybe slight scum on Doc. You I'll abstain on for now.

[talah]

Taleh, is this DV dotting i's and crossing t's?

I really dislike that first sentence and that question about why someone would ask for a link to a game odd.

It seems more like commentary/observation to me, and having had to specify so early one of the major things I'd look for in scumreading Deas virtually invalidates it. I do have a few other things I'd be keeping an eye out for but for now I'm not concerned and happy to lean town.

Bjc already looks like he is going to be a lynch bait here .

Talah is bad all over . He has one decent post explaining his decisions otherwise he has been bad all over .

So if I've had a bunch of 'bad' posts and one 'decent' post what's your opinion? Was the 'decent' post enough to invalidate all of the 'bad' posts, or are you weighing my alignment only numerically on your opinion of what posts are 'bad' or 'decent'?

Also I left the bjc thing in because lynchbait can only be town, right? So you're townreading bjc? Why?

Talah 1) Called for allies 2) Blindly sheeped those allies 3) Reacted badly to a case being made. For early day one, that's a slam dunk case that I'm not going to "wait and see" on.

1)

What allies did I call for? Was it:

a)

Deas and mastin, suggesting if we're all town we might join forces, in the extremely early (as in, I-couldn't-possibly-have-a-read early) response garnering comment I made?
or,

b)

The entire roster of people I have previously interacted with in the playerlist?

2)

Who were the other

allies

that I was *also* sheeping?
I'll tell you right now that I've sheeped

scumreads

before, because I think it's a useful way to find out if there's conviction and validity behind a case, and to see of others join a wagon and why.

3)

What case did I react badly to? The case being made about me? Which I know to be bullshit? Do tell me how I was supposed to react in your eyes to a super-early overblown case which was 'ur post ain genuwin son', or if you're referring to something else, please clarify.

You appear to be twisting words to exaggerate the validity of your vote, and I might add that your entrance was pretty much what you appear to be accusing me of, in that you sheep Mister and appear to buddy up to him by implicitly agreeing with everything he's said and adding the 'coalition' statement.

[talah]

Borked quote tags in my post 87, should be this.

Talah 1) Called for allies 2) Blindly sheeped those allies 3) Reacted badly to a case being made. For early day one, that's a slam dunk case that I'm not going to "wait and see" on.

[talah]

Oh god, mastin rolled scum and it looks like multifaction.

mastin - why did you delete the spacing in the quote of mine you posted? I actually responded to Mister, addressed everyone else I'd played with generally, then asked Mister a question (which is apparent in the fact that I, well, readdressed him with the @ symbol). Removing the spacing makes it look like the entire thing was in response to the quote, which it wasn't.

Secondly why are my and Mister's interactions town vs scum? Do you think I fooled Mister to the point where he's no longer voting me - meaning he's town and his push was good but he's wrong?

Lastly I'll post as much as I like thank you very much. Less than 4 pages a day on day 1 is *nothing* compared to recent larges and I know you know that just from the fact that you were in FE:A and Gundam. So this proposal just seems like a way to squash free conversation and possibly give yourself a reason to complain about excessive activity if you decide to lurk.

[talah]

Secondly why are my and Mister's interactions town vs scum? Do you think I fooled Mister to the point where he's no longer voting me - meaning he's town and his push was good but he's wrong?

Yeah, you're scum. This line of thought simply doesn't come from a town player. Town player? "Why do you think Rogers is town? Why do you think I'm scum?" Scum player? "Why do you think our interactions are town vs. scum?" (Making an assumption that interactions have anything to do with the read. They might contribute to the overall picture, but are largely irrelevant.) "...Also, he unvoted me; surely that makes him either scum or wrong." (That's essentially what talah's saying, here.)

mastin I *knew* that I could get a good read on you based on your entrance. Your town and scum entrances are

vastly

different even though you don't seem aware of the differences.

A big ping was immediately differing reads. I don't think you put down more than two or three insta-reads which you actually have any meat behind. In the last game we played together where we hydra'd, I understood your reads *immediately*. I expected you to enter the thread with either slight disdain for my aggression or a hearty 'hullo' and you've done neither. You've not tried to connect with me; not tried to *get* a read on me - you've simply said I'm scum and voted me.

(Which is super interesting considering you've just voted someone else even though you think I'm

definitely

scum).

Are you interested in why I think it's multi-scum based on your one post? Because I have a clear though process on that, too.

Talah was a scumread for much of the reasoning Rogers presented, though my own wording is slightly different--basically, there's nothing genuine about talah's posting; it's hollow, shallow, easily faked and overall just feeling plain empty. He's playing a highly-reactionary game rather than a proactive one, and overall, he feels like he's not scumhunting; he feels like he's trying to get a feeling for how to manipulate players.

Let me address this first: "Hollow, shallow, easily faked and overall just feeling plain empty."

Your words. Can you point out instances of this, or are you happy to simply to cast a huge aspersion on my character without explaining your own thinking?

Secondly - how are you asserting that *I* think that it's town vs scum when I clearly implied that I am tending to think that Mister and I is town versus town?

I'm oh so happy to spend the time requoting myself and yourself in context if you disagree that that was my indication.

Disappointed that you're scum this game :(

VOTE: mastin2

[talah]

Your entry reads this game are utter shit. Unless you're prepared to back them up where a direct question is asked, they're inauthentic.

This much I know is true.

I also know that I have played precisely *one* scumgame which I'm happy to link if you're not aware of it, and that you've played *many*, written articles, talked about scum agendas. I know you a bit better than you think, especially after Time: The Distortion.

Why didn't you *try* to form a read on me? Are you basing your read one one post and butthurt because I called you scum from your entrance? Is that a mastin reason to have a scumread?

If I'm scum fo' sho' - why not get me lynched so you can be vindicated obvtown? Contrary to what you're presenting, you're an excellent orator, so it should be no problem for you to iterate specifics in my "case". You only have trouble explaining gut reads initially as town. You very rarely let time pass where your scumreads are gut if someone asks you *why*, in my experience. This personal distancing is troubling to me.

Ed: ^@mastin

[talah]

So this proposal just seems like a way to squash free conversation and possibly give yourself a reason to complain about excessive activity if you decide to lurk.

Why do you think this could potentially happen?

Why do I think what could happen?

Agree with your tentative scumreads except for Admiral at this stage. Also surprised Smudger hasn't turned up yet. Rach leans Town. I'll give a lovely reads-spam in the next day or two.

What are your thoughts on mastin so far? I'm not asking you to pick a side, just interested.

[talah]

I'll be back in about 36 hours (maybe sooner if I can get some quality forum time at work).

Covering off what I recall as some questions raised/comments I thought to make:
- Rach your couple of posts felt genuine, so gut at this stage.
- mastin would be fine defending against a meta argument with meta, however, what I'm saying is that I spotted two triggers for me - a bad-looking opening readslist and an entrance which was something I didn't expect from what I know of her personality. That coupled with a pretty opportunistic vote on me hit me in the face like a sledgehammer.
- I'm going to have to have a think about my multi-scum assumption, but it was a bit ego-related and I can explain better where I'm at with it in a bit.
- Zdenek, from your perspective don't you think it's a reasonable assumption that if a person votes you and says on the very next line that the person attacking you is town, that they're assuming an argument is town vs scum? Couple that with the fact that for a supposed 'reaction vote' on me - I was the player who'd already come under the most scrutiny up to that point. So mastin's happy to townread, say, aptil on the basis of one very shonky post, but needs to reaction-test me when I'm the player who already has the most in-thread content to read from?
- aptil, underwhelmed by your response. Can you tell me what it is that's making you townread bjc on the basis of him saying "I'm scum" please.

Anyway, I don't think there's any reason for the Doc wagon to die, and regardless it's probably a bad idea to lynch mastin Day 1 on the off chance that she's town. So will be keeping an eye on.

UNVOTE: mastin
VOTE: Doc

[talah]

If I'm scum fo' sho' - why not get me lynched so you can be vindicated obvtown? Contrary to what you're presenting, you're an excellent orator, so it should be no problem for you to iterate specifics in my "case". You only have trouble explaining gut reads initially as town. You very rarely let time pass where your scumreads are gut if someone asks you *why*, in my experience.

This

personal distancing

is troubling to me.

Can someone, anyone, please explain what the bolded re the underlined actually means; I am having trouble getting the exact point and I feel its important.

Should really be me that explains myself shouldn't it? (I'm reading along, I just really don't have time to post much until tomorrow evening.)

The last game I played was with mastin, in a hydra. It was a small game, but between us we communicated fairly amiably and sparsely and managed to pretty much align reads and identify the scumteam with pretty decent accuracy. The last two large games I'd played before that (including Gundam SEED) had mastin in them. In Gundam particularly, mastin was dayvigged by scum on Day 1 and I spent much of the remainder of the day trying to scream down a lynch on the vig. mastin *ranted* in the dead thread about how he liked my play and that people should be listening to me.

So I feel like at least we have an amiable connection to the point where if mastin's town, I'd like to work with her, and I'd think that she'd be far more cautious and wanting to determine my alignment rather than just dropping a vote on me and then telling me I know virtually nothing about her.

So anyway, that's it. I feel like I'm getting overinvested in this line of thinking and it's clouding my judgement so I'm just going to note my scumread on mastin and keep sorting through other reads.

Edit: Mister, I'm not tackling mastin on a meta argument because I'm not an expert on mastin-meta and frankly don't have the time to take it to ffery/cabd-like levels which would be the only level I'd actually be comfortable saying 'well, this is statistically significant'. That's not my issue, and the post you quoted is not something I can argue with because

I don't know

. My issue is

what *I* know of mastin

, and the difference here in this game. And as mentioned just above I feel like I want to *not* get involved in a shitfight about it when I could be spending time thinking about players' motivations.

[talah]

I never said anything about scum buddying regarding Pere/Admiral. I lean town on both, Admiral more strongly than Pere right now.

I'm not buying the "fake vig". Nor the "town reaction". But I'll have to take a look back to see what exactly irked me about it.

I saw Zdenek's vote coming from halfway around the map.

My vote is still on Doc because I've got no reason to move it unless he answers my questions.

I am 100% conflicted on Mister. I see effort; I see questions; I see pushing the game forward by way of this, and a *lot* of posts. I was waiting to see what was going to happen with the questions he was asking and something about the way his reads are being formed is irritating me. I don't know - it may just be hangover from feeling ganked at gamestart.

And this, is a prod dodge until tomorrow. I have a headache.

[talah]

Although I'm around right now if you want to chat about anything Mister.

[talah]

O-kay.

1) Unreadable

2) I had the thought they could be crumbing masons, but Admiral denied they had a thread at all, I think

3) My assessment of this relies on two things regarding mastin - the first that she's scum, and second that she is more aware of my playstyle/strengths than she claims to be. I haven't been mislynched before, only nightkilled. My reasoning ran that mastin's vote was so -out there- that there had to be a good reason behind it. All I could come up with was that she was indicating I was an excellent push-target for the other team. I guess I kind of overlooked that I was a very late replacement and that scum don't necessarily have daytalk.

Oh and ego. I did mention it relies on that too.

Ed: the ^ is in response to Mister.

[talah]

Ugh - yeah pain sucks. Especially considering painkillers/anaesthetic/etc can get rid of it, makes me angreh that the brain just wants to do its job a bit too eagerly.

Think mastin changed pronouns not so long ago.

Are you getting any inklings of other reads Rach?

[talah]

umm Mastin is a he :P

HOW WELL

DO

YOU KNOW MASTIN TALAH?
:P

Can't.. Tell.. If.. Trolling...
:P

[talah]

Take medicine and post better. And feel better.


And post better.

Yeah, thanks, in order to do that I probably needed to not have a headache, and to actually read through rather than just read along. But noted, and I've just read (properly) up to page 10 this morning.

I have a question mark on townreading you mainly because you seem a bit more proactive (or maybe 'pushy') than I remember and also don't remember you having scumhunted using PoE before.


Re-reading through the fake vig I can probably buy it, actually.

So anyway, bored with waiting for Doc to never come back. I don't see Damon as scum and we need more activity from the bottom two thirds. It's actually quite unnerving that so many players have posted only a handful of times.

VOTE: Luca

Ed: well there ya go.

[talah]

Pidgeon - quick one from work - were you asked to join this game, or did you replace in of your own accord?

And did you skim / read any of the thread prior to replacing in?

[talah]

Talah, I was asking why you thought it possible that mastin's attempt to squash activity would succeed.

I didn't actually care if it would succeed or not. I disliked the suggestion that people should be limiting their posting when there hadn't been any indication of the insane amounts of activity which were practically hallmarks of Day 1 FE:A and Gundam.

Regarding Mastin, I was more concerned about her than I was about you, but I think that her making a huge deal about how she only voted for you and didn't call you scum is kind of silly and also happens to be rather townish!

Mokay. I'm actually happy to let mastin do her thing for the remainder of the day, and interact as necessary (or as prompted by her). I had the feeling we were more familiar than I guess she seems to think, and a couple of the early interactions make me feel pretty :groan:-y after the fact. Never mind, Angry Pidgeon is here to save the day! Apparently.

Zdenek, I feel really conflicted about Bipolar's reaction to your fakevig. I completely agreed with your scumread, but considering that the dayvig gambit has become so common that it's often used as a joke, I don't know if I trust his reaction. What are your thoughts?

Yeah I'm flicking back and forth on this just by the by. At first it was not understanding the sarcasm reference - the original post seemed like it referred to Rach's previous posts. And I'm not sure if Chemist had made any reference to me at all prior to that but I'm not sure that sarcasm really fit. When I read back this morning though it seemed like it very well could be a town response to a dayvig (especially with the claim). So.. anyway Pidgeon asks me a question about it down the track so I might re-read that when I catch up.

Yates is so town. <3

I got that impression while reading along too. I actually got the same vibe about projectmatt when he replaced in fwiw. pisskop too, actually.


But anyway going to actually do a bit of work on this game tonight.
I've decided to let the universe deal with it rather than spazzing out over being called scum.
:D

[talah]

Because mastin said you were one of the only players she considered could read her.

There's less than a handful of people who really get me as a player. Like, literally, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is AP. There's others, of course, but he's the only one in my mind who has that 100% accuracy. Others have tried, and scum have claimed they can, but they either failed or lied.

So it's your time to shine.

[talah]

Apologies for my lack of activity thus far, I will commit a bit of time later to going through this thread and will post my reads then.

Hi, when? You have three posts. Do you need encouragement? Like a lovely wagon?

You can't read much from bjc's opening post; you have to question why scum would want to draw attention to themselves so needlessly early on, but it could be some sort of ridiculous bluff.

He comes across as apathetic, which I would attribute more to Town in the early stages of a game as opposed to scum.

Why are town apathetic in the early stages of a game? I'm enthusiastic about a game starting which I signed up for and want to be involved with.

As for talah, just the overall feel of his posts feels like something coming from town to me. Again, provocative in the right ways, seems to be genuinely scumhunting, called out mastin which is a big plus in my opinion when already there's been a couple of people in this game defending her by proxy. The only negative in talah's posts is the OMGUS vote on Doc, which I don't really like - but everything else is good stuff.

Just being transparent here, but this reason for thinking I'm town and the dislike of me being OMGUSy are both not great.
Me as scum (under the alt Schillinger) attacking Reck precisely because I *knew* he wouldn't be lynched
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5345108
(the Curren$y youtube at the top of that page is frockin' AWESOME just by the by)
Me as town and my theory on OMGUS
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5348546

So anyway... still think you're town.

[talah]

Although I would be up for wagoning Luca, not for Luca's solitary Doc vote (that's null), for defending bjc

while leaving room for doubt

with "but it could be some sort of ridiculous buff"

Ahem. But didn't you do this with both myself AND DG but at the opposite of the spectrum? O_o

yes, that's the point, it's the opposite. What's the motivation for someone to leave room for a read to be town, i.e. less credit for a lynch? Compared to leaving the door open for suspicion, i.e. giving credit to lynch while defending against it? And I never showed any doubt with my DG read.

I don't understand this. The motivation to leave room to read someone as town is presumably either because you're not sure (as town) or because you want to have flexibility to change your read later (as scum).

Where does credit for a lynch factor in here?

Well ya scum love their night Q/T and I can't help think of Doc when I say this but that doesn't change the fact that door swings in both directions.

This pinged me earlier and I though I'd bring it up since you recently posted something about daytalk - but why would you presume scum only have night talk?

1) What allies did I call for?

Mastin in post 15 stood out enough that I took note of it as well. And I guess Deas in your opening post but that one was a little less eggregious. I don't find this alignment indicative at this point but it's certainly an interaction worth pointing out in the event either of you flips scum.

I'm guessing that this was the unstoppable scumhunting force post.

Fair enough insofar as that specifically goes, but the point of asking was really to get a pingback from Doc and find out if he was able to clarify his thinking, since the statements he made in the post where he was accusing me seemed quite hyperbolic.

[talah]

- I'm sheeping Deas to get a more solid read on him, and I think his vote on Doc was legit

So Doc posts a one line, pretty whatever vote on Molla and votes on Doc are legit because? What do you expect from DV to help you read him here?

I did mention that afterward I believe (so you may have read the answer to the same question if you were doing a catch-up) but I do believe you post a few attacks so we may as well go about this methodically. I *don't* expect an unexplained naked vote from Deas, so Deas can have a town lean. I *do* expect information from a wagon or pressure thereby. So I dunno. There are a few people who have expressed townreads on Doc, which I don't really understand. (In light of the pisskop entrance I may concur but we'll see I guess.) Ultimately I thought it was a positive move from Deas at that stage of the game, which was worth supporting especially considering Doc pretty much *added* to what Mister was saying rather than bringing in any particularly original content. Mister's 'Ok Corral' response is one of those things which had me wondering too. (But at this stage it would do my head in to think Mister's scum - I'm at the point where I'm still doubtful because of specific quotes or statements but the idea that scum could post like he's posting just doesn't make sense.)

I have a question mark on townreading you mainly because you seem a bit more proactive (or maybe 'pushy') than I remember and also don't remember you having scumhunted using PoE before.

It's a function of free time, as in "how much do I have?" that affects my mafia playing. And PoE is not super realiable, but it's a good springboard to start day1.

Okay, well glad you're active-r than I remember. The last couple I've been unable to townread you until you do something later in the game which clicks. You're not a lynch candidate for Day 1 as far as I'm concerned (and as laughable as me saying that may seem :P)

I read a few pages.

Why am I scum? And why is the vote spread so large?

I can't help it. Why me? = Fry me.

:DD

That aside - we don't appear to be "doing wagons" this game, although I'm up for them. Seems like whoever gets wagoned just lurkfucks their way out of actually providing content. Luca's promised some though, good wagon I think.

[talah]

This all happened in the span of like 15 minutes. This actually looks organic to some of you???

What does the time frame have to do with it?

Everything? The timing makes it look orchestrated.

I was reading along with this when it happened (think at work). That was one of the things that I was sketchy about. It happened, I expected a reaction when I saw it (and - man I

hate

fake vig's - they're just the cheapest form of reaction testing ever, everyone expects them and they're so prolific, like some kind of cheesy threat), but it fizzled out so quickly and with such a quick conclusion from Zdenek that I really didn't know what to think. I didn't think Chemist's responses were authentic - I mean the fact that he's asking Zdenek whether he can still post or not implies he *knows* that Zdnenek is town?

I dunno. My gut was that it was bullshit but on the re-read it looked okay.

1) What allies did I call for? Was it:

a) Deas and mastin, suggesting if we're all town we might join forces, in the extremely early (as in, I-couldn't-possibly-have-a-read early) response garnering comment I made?
or,
b) The entire roster of people I have previously interacted with in the playerlist?

2) Who were the other allies that I was *also* sheeping?
I'll tell you right now that I've sheeped scumreads before, because I think it's a useful way to find out if there's conviction and validity behind a case, and to see of others join a wagon and why.

3) What case did I react badly to? The case being made about me? Which I know to be bullshit? Do tell me how I was supposed to react in your eyes to a super-early overblown case which was 'ur post ain genuwin son', or if you're referring to something else, please clarify.

You appear to be twisting words to exaggerate the validity of your vote, and I might add that your entrance was pretty much what you appear to be accusing me of, in that you sheep Mister and appear to buddy up to him by implicitly agreeing with everything he's said and adding the 'coalition' statement.

Talah continues to make scummy posts. Seriously look at this post ^. I guarantee you none of that bullshit is going to help Talah scumhunt anybody. All that is is OMGUS with a dash of "You can't PROVE Im scum" and trying to paint Doc as scummy with a pretty bad hypocrisy case. And a ton of smokey questions on top of that to make the post look actually meaningful. Wow. Lynch this.

This would absolutely help me to get a read on Doc if he had decided to answer. Clarification of assertions is an awesome scumhunting tool.

OMGUS I've answered. It's something I do because I have balls. When I get a town role I tend / have tended to think I'm unstoppable. I've actually mellowed a lot lately thinking about my game and interactions with other people, plus have had a couple of intense RL things to deal with lately - but ultimately I'm quite fine with my questions to Doc and if he'd actually responded then I may well have gotten a read on him which I could be comfortable with and move on.

So Gutread time:

Positive:
Bipolar
Devas
ZD
Luca
snowstorm


Noted:
Peregrine
bjc
Rogers


Negative:
Thadmiral
Talah
Yates
Demongant


I went into skim mode by page 8. too many ppl to track in one go. Ill go back and look at points of interest. Starting with DocHoliday.

Would you please do me a favour and at least throw a sentence in about *why* you're reading folks in the way you are?
Cause like - you have Snow and Luca in positive and Admiral, Yates, Demon (and me at that stage) in negative - all of which I disagree with - and you really have a 'noted' against Mister?

It's very difficult to understand where you're coming from analytically with a readslist like that.

[talah]

There are a few people who have expressed townreads on Doc, which I don't really understand.... onsidering Doc pretty much *added* to what Mister was saying rather than bringing in any particularly original content. Mister's 'Ok Corral' response is one of those things which had me wondering too.

At that point Doc was seeing something that I saw and my post acknowledged that. Of course, what ruined that was his subsequent post regarding your wagon & the BJC wagon which demonstrated a mindset that was far worse than just a simple RVS push. I put a query out to him about this but he never returned to the thread and I have read him as scummy ever since.

PK has not completed his catchup and my read of him at this point is mixed.

K. Mine too actually but had a gut town following along - so interested in his further posting.

[talah]

I saw Zdenek's vote coming from halfway around the map.

Good. Then you know what I am thinking and should be town reading me.

If you'd voted me in post 124, 126, 128, 135 (and 135 is baffling since that was one of the reasons masting

specifically said

she was scumreading me - and in that post you say I'm misrepresenting what occurred but then present a representation of what mastin *actually meant* - actually fuck it I'll quote it),

- Zdenek, from your perspective

don't you think it's a reasonable assumption

that if a person votes you and says on the very next line that the person attacking you is town, that they're assuming an argument is town vs scum?

Yes

, but that doesn't need to be the reason that they think you are scum.

Couple that with the fact that for a supposed 'reaction vote' on me - I was the player who'd already come under the most scrutiny up to that point. So mastin's happy to townread, say, aptil on the basis of one very shonky post, but needs to reaction-test me when I'm the player who already has the most in-thread content to read from?

All of this fits with the Mastin I know and I don't think it's alignment related. However, I think

you are misrepresenting what actually happened

. Mastin

read your content, thought it was scummy, voted you and also didn't like your reaction to the vote.

Emphasis mine. Anyway...

...or post 227 (where you assert that I'm being unreasonable assuming that mastin is *implying* an interaction-based read in his vote on me, and then go on to say that me therefore questioning interaction-based reads is a scum-gambit on my part)

I think mastin's view of the townie thought process is about right. I think that talah asking about interactions, which mastin never mentioned, is an attempt to get mastin to argue for something that the never claimed, force him into arguing a particular point or have him admit that he doesn't think that the interactions are scummy. The second comment seems to me to be simply manipulative. To me it boils down to Talah saying: if you think I'm scum, then you must think that I've fooled Mr. Rogers, Mr. Rogers is town, but wrong, which is really not a remarkable opinion to hold in a mafia game at all.

Yeah, then I might know what you're thinking. But right now I have no idea.

[talah]

Just being transparent here, but this reason for thinking I'm town and the dislike of me being OMGUSy are both not great.
Me as scum (under the alt Schillinger) attacking Reck precisely because I *knew* he wouldn't be lynched
viewtopic.php?p=5345108#p5345108
(the Curren$y youtube at the top of that page is frockin' AWESOME just by the by)
Me as town and my theory on OMGUS
viewtopic.php?p=5348546#p5348546

Talah, convince me that there was any point to posting this other than to make yourself look more town.

There's no other reason. Although can I rephrase and say it's to convince folks who care to click links that I'm town?

[talah]

So mastin's happy to townread, say, aptil on the basis of one very shonky post, but needs to reaction-test me when I'm the player who already has the most in-thread content to read from?

This is scum upset at being caught for the wrong reasons.

Well it's funny, but that's what I thought about mastin's self-meta when I wasn't really citing on meta but rather personal experience/intuition.
I thought the ole "scum butthurt because caught for the wrong reasons" was a bit hackneyed to raise though. Sort of like her saying "this is not a town mindset" when I asked her why Mister and I was town vs scum.

Anyway I'm not interested in a Day 1 mastin lynch if I haven't mentioned that enough times already.


Ed: Mister, I'm getting to the point where I'm done for the night, have been catching up with current events. This is the first time aside from one post at work where I've posted from a PC and for some reason the text box keeps freezing on me but at least I can post quotes.

But no, I'm not going to have 5-6 scumreads in a 20 player game. I might have a couple of scum leans at this stage but I'm mainly looking at townposting and for D1 who's the most likely scum to push / advocate / agree with a few days out from deadline. The amount of lurkfucks at the moment is prime real estate for scum. Why don't you jump on Luca or something? Barring actually ISOing I can't remember a thing Snowstorm has posted either. Fuck Nero too.

[talah]

ebwop: I don't want to sift through Yates without a better understanding of actual producers.

Grape producers? Cheese producers? Huh?

I'm not buying the "fake vig". Nor the "town reaction". But I'll have to take a look back to see what exactly irked me about it.

Unf. Talk to me about this. I agree and Im concerned that Yates is the only other person to step up to the plate on this one.

Yeah alright. I think I covered most of it though. Re-read looks okay. But Zdenek bailed on his strong push pretty quickly only on the basis of the reaction. Initially I thought it was bull - scum setting something up and carrying through. Yates' call on it seemed quite town and in line with my thinking as a natural reaction so there's that anyway. There were also a few cheerleaders (which I think you pointed out as well - Mister's reaction was a bit OTT and my mind went back to wondering if he was some kind of Uber-Scum consolidating Zdenek and Chemist as townreads, but paranoia'll do that). But then I read back and didn't really mind the interaction although I think I'm always going to find the ole fake-vig cheap.

I'm giving it the nullest of townreads on both, and a bit less on Chemist, if that's possible. Zdenek's leaning town for questioning and pushing anyway.

[talah]

But no, I'm not going to have 5-6 scumreads in a 20 player game.

You should.

Er, no. I'll have precisely the amount of scumspects as I think are scummy. Probably I'll have a 'leftovers' list which contains most if not all of the scumteam. I don't know where you get this theory that I should have more scumreads than is actually possible in a 20 player game. If there are two scumteams it's 'traditionally' harder to find scumspects because scum get to, you know, actually scumhunt the other team.

So please explain why 5-6 scumreads is rational.

I might have a couple of scum leans at this stage

I don't like this.

Good for you, champ.

but I'm mainly looking at townposting and for D1 who's the most likely scum to push / advocate / agree with a few days out from deadline.

Or this as it doesn't jive well with the quote above and I don't like emphasis on town reads over scum.

I'll be focussing on who I think is town and ultimately checking out whether I like their pushes for lynch. My own pushes for lynch which have succeeded are statistically terrible, and so now I prefer to build consensus. I'm not a good leader.

The amount of lurkfucks at the moment is prime real estate for scum.

What you mean to push??

For scum to *hide in*, lurkfucking the game away, with no pressure and not needing to post or put themselves on the line.

Why don't you jump on Luca or something?

Last time I checked, its better to vote active scum reads and I have a few of them with the addition now of Yates.

Fair enough. I tend to like wagons in larges, at least there's some analysis available later if there are some reasonable townies driving wagons who are prepared to control them.


Anyway that's enough for me tonight but I'm approximately caught up. Something like post 340.

[talah]

Mister, I'll post back tomorrow. I've just spent four and a half hours reading through the thread, giving my opinions. But if you want to vote me, why set it up? Why not just do it?

Dels, your most recent post is like a wind of joy. I'm glad you're town.
And no, I'm not fooling you, or anyone. I'm just town.

UNVOTE: Luca
VOTE: aptil

[talah]

Rucking autocorrect.

[talah]

I noticed I missed a couple of of your posts during tonight's posting but if you want to iterate what you want answered it would be good so I don't have to be taking tally of your questions for follow up.

Your 386, if I was dayvigged by scum I would be fucking livid, not asking that scum whether I was still allowed to post. That means Chemist either knows Zdenek's alignment, or strongly suspects he's town.

And once again I don't make excuses, I explain what I'm thinking. When multiball's in play confusion can come into play because there are 'too many town' - ie if you're working from PoE based on who's scumhunting you can end up with a deficiency of scumreads and end up townreading folks just because they're trying to catch other-scum out. Something to watch out for and totally moot until we get a scumflip.

A balanced amount of scum would be 4-5 in a 20 player game depending on the setup.

And I think that's all aside from maybe a readslist?

From memory:

Prob-town:
Deas
Yates
Damon
Pere
Admiral
Pidgeon
Rach
Zdenek
YOU

Maybe-town:
matt
4nx
pisskop
bjc
Chemist

The Rest:
mastin
Luca
aptil
Snow
Nero

[talah]

I'm hedging hard on mastin because of the way she dropped off scumreading me. I'll wait to see what further posting brings in that regard. But I pushed because I felt she was scum.

Now why don't you get off your arse and push something yourself? I absolutely glazed over your three mega-post IoA glory-reads. I literally have no idea who you're thinking is a good lynch for today.

And you're irritating the shit out of me just coming back to me, again and again, and you're confused as to whether lurkers could be scum?

Summin ain't right Lucy, and I'll thank you not to wish me a good night in future, cause it's just fucking creepy.

[talah]

Can we just wagon someone please? At this stage I don't even care if it's me.

@Mister - don't dream it, do it.

@Everyone else who's not voting or thinks #unvote is a cool thing the kids are doing these days - take a fricking position will you? Use your vote for *something*


I've never been so lost in a game of Mafia.

Ed: wb mastin

[talah]

I think the PK issue needs addressing though.

Pisskop? Did I miss something specific?
Do you think aptil votes are just as useless/bad as luca votes? I mean I guess aptil has slightly more content, but I see a slew of people voting both of these players who, imo, are lurking and nullville.

Ya I mean holy crap unless we decide we are going to wagon these prod dodgers to lynch unless they contribute. Odds are there is scum in that lurker list (if you count ALL of the lurkers) but its really a crap shoot.

But its not like the wagon will be helpful because its on a lurker and our D2 will lack a beneficial wagon to analyze.

Aptil is not any better than Luca.

We should be able to do better than a crap shoot and I bet we have better odds in the lurker voters.

I feel like Larry David here.

"Can't vote the LURKERS, oh no, don't vote the LURKERS, the LURKERS are SACRED, no voting the LURKERS"

That's just horseshit. How do you propose that lurkers *ever* get read, then? Cover our ears with our hands, look elsewhere, and hope they work it out between themselves in a few game days?

No - you wagon lurkers and if they refuse to provide content and opinions you lynch the living shit out of them.

And you do it *early* so it doesn't become an emergency deadline lynch and so there's time to think clearly about what's occurring.

Will finish work and get to this today .

Sure you will. No pressure from us.

Apologies for my lack of activity thus far, I will commit a bit of time later to going through this thread and will post my reads then.

No worries mate. Take it easy, you've got a free ride into Day 2 if Rogers has anything to do with it.

[talah]

Actually Luca's a much better vote than aptil. There's that scum-cerity where he's expressing that he's sorry he can't post (because making a scum post he's happy with is so draining and unsatisfying). I've known the feeling.

VOTE: Luca

[talah]

Why not Luca then? He's due for a prod if he doesn't post and I saw him logged in yesterday where he didn't bother posting. You should be asking pisskop (or potentially aptil if you want double the value given aptil is more likely scum) about bjc if you haven't played with him before.

Luca kind of randomly called out bjc as something to say in RVS so it's not so likely that bjc is scum if Luca is, but is says pretty much nothing about Luca if bjc's scum. If you're considering one or the other on a coinflip, Luca's your man.

(I'll just gloss over the fact you voted me for essentially advocating wagonning lurkers and seem to be as switchy as a diode in your opinions... )

[talah]

I just noted you you did that. The reason I am voting for you is a lackluster approach to scum suspects & a bizarre cog-dis in your approach to the game. It just appears like you are trying to skate through by simply commenting combined with a "lynch me or lump it" attitude.

In acknowledgement of this - I don't think any of this is unusual for me.

I got a couple of town reads lurking like Snow & Matt too.

I'm leaning town on Matt. I ISO'd snow this evening and can't say I'm feeling the town.

Luca fencesat BJC, he didn't call him out. He town postured the issue which is like barfable but at least he's not saying "I'm lurking deliberately".

He commented on bjc which is as good as calling him out in RVS. He had anyone else he could have drawn attention to and I doubt being wishy-washy is good scumplay in that circumstance if he and bjc were buddies.

But regardless of alignment lynching BJC goes the farthest towards repairing the game state.

Surprisingly, I understand this. Remind me I have you as town because of this specifically if I continue to be irritated by your posting.

PEDIT: See, a lurker has returned and is contributing.

Indeed, and just as I was about to drop Rach from prob-town to maybe-town. I like her vote on Nero, and although I've never SEEN Nero as scum, he's a troll and a half when he's town and scumhunting. So we shall see.

[talah]

Pere - I'm not overly concerned with bjc at the moment. He's not inaccessible and has a rather 'fuck you'-ish attitude which I like. For now.

I'd rather get a full set of data to be making assessments from, rather than just be content with the idea that lurkers are some kind of quasi-amputee kittens that we need to feel sorry for and insist that, dammit! they have the RIGHT to lurk!

Pidgeon - Oh I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where Luca said he had some intense real life issues happening and arranged V/LA with a view to replacing out if he was unable to play the game. What's that? He actually apologised for not providing content and promised content and then fucked off to 'scum iz intense'-land? Oh my. Well I suppose we should wait for LUCA TO RESPOND THEN, don't you think?

Anyway I've got a long day ahead of me and I need a break, so I'll be back around my prod timer because you fucks obviously need time to work things out between yourselves anyway. Did I mention that I'm an excellent wagon for those of you that want to push a policy/information lynch? Probably.

Oh and the last couple of posts from matt made my brain feel like it was out of sync with the universe.

[talah]

Pidgeon - Oh I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where Luca said he had some intense real life issues happening and arranged V/LA with a view to replacing out if he was unable to play the game. What's that? He actually apologised for not providing content and promised content and then fucked off to 'scum iz intense'-land? Oh my. Well I suppose we should wait for LUCA TO RESPOND THEN, don't you think?

Yes that sure is what happened. And then you made an obscure-ass case on him for it:

There's that scum-cerity where he's expressing that he's sorry he can't post (because making a scum post he's happy with is so draining and unsatisfying). I've known the feeling.

And what, to you, indicates that this "obscure-ass case" isn't 100% accurate? Do you have information that Luca really *is* having RL issues which are affecting his ability to post - anything at all?
Here's the post:

Apologies for my lack of activity thus far, I will commit a bit of time later to going through this thread and will post my reads then.

And anyway like I say I saw him logged in about a day ago, and he posted nothing. Not another prod dodge, not general comments or an indication about how he was going to go about catching up - nothing.

If he was *really* apologetic and had RL issues, perhaps he'd flag a V/LA or replace out or something.
But the fact is, I'm seeing this as more likely a case of newb-scum who has no idea what initial angle to take to further his wincon. And without further information to dispute that likelihood, why would anyone give him a free pass to not be voted for not playing the game?

Why are you defending him?

(anyway back later, so I waive my right of reply for a couple of days)

[talah]

HAI NERO :D

I'm just being a lazy half drunk fuck and taking a day off, but do you have a read on me yet?

Damon, what the actual fuck was that post you just made about?

[talah]

Okay good.

[talah]

So here's what's going to happen with my pet scumlurker over the next few days:

HAI LUCA

He'll post just around or after the next dodge with an opinion on one or two of the non-controversial but mentioned players, probably laying down suspicion on someone like bjc or a quizzical query on Admiral or Pere.

A couple of days later, he'll apologise for lack of content again, and promise a catch up in the next couple of days.

He'll come back with three or four days from deadline and post a strong position on a townie for bad reasons. Then he'll attack one or two popular alternatives, very gently mind you, and place his vote on said strong-positioned townie. Posting twice or three times in the process!

Then two days out from deadline he'll say his vote needs to change to the most popular town candidate for lynch, and if there's opportunity or division close to deadline, he'll compromise on whatever townie's available.

I'm an Oracle.

[talah]

While posting my second round of reads yesterday , my broadband suddenly stopped working . Posting this from a friend's mobile . Hopefully the situation will be sorted by tomorrow .

I'm so so fucking sorry to hear about your lack of connectivity problems and how if affects the fact that nobody can read you in a game of mafia which you signed up for.

Broadband problems in the US are apparently epidemic.

[talah]

I'm an Oracle.

I loled.

But can you answer my question from yesterday, please?

Which was?

[talah]

Oh bjc

[talah]

Yeah I'm pleading the fifth, shouldn't have brought it up. But it doesn't seem against type.

[talah]

Well the other two points are you commenting about my take on matt and not liking my call on AP.

The matt thing was just when you glaze over when a post's meter seems slow? (yes that question mark is intentional)
I haven't found it a strong tell but then again I've (collaboratively) caught scum from it (and mastin can tell you about kalimar in Gumdam if you ask). Matt's post isn't identical, obviously, so it affected my take on him and prompted me to mention it, because you know, reactions are great when the person you're commenting on gets a chance to respond independently (or ignore it, which I guess he did).

The other thing - err I don't even know what you're getting at. I knew AP didn't have info on Luca (or at least, strongly suspected he didn't), and if he actually did I would have dropped it immediately on a say-so. Turns out he didn't, so I am still Not seeing the issue with wagonning the crap out of lurkers while we have a week on the clock. Apparently that's scummy, to want content from lurkers.

'tevs. Stop trolling me while I'm drunk.

[talah]

Also, drunk trolling is best trolling. Though I'm not realy trolling you, am I? More like I saw you had recently posted, ignored my post as it pertains to you, and had some questions...

:Pea Tear Griffin: good

Well the other two points are you commenting about my take on matt and not liking my call on AP.

I was wondering about your "fuck you -ish" attitude statement, actually. And you used that to claim you had a "Townish" read on bjc for displaying it. I just found that odd.

bjc seems like a 'fuck you' guy. In addition to what I've already said. Until he posts something that looks scummy to me - I have him town leaning.

Why don't you ask piskop or aptil about him, unless you've PLAYED with him (like I suggested Pere do)?

The matt thing was just when you glaze over when a post's meter seems slow?

Huh? This isn't AT ALL what I thought you were saying. Can you instead just give me your Matt read?

Leaning town. Your request is granted.
What did you expect? A landmark turnaround? I'm genuinely interested in what you thought I would say.

The other thing - err I don't even know what you're getting at.

You started down this path of "how do you know it's RL issues? Maybe he's faking it!" Don't use out of game excuses for a read. I burned Pere on this earlier. It's super scummy.

I disagree wholeheartedly. I have no problem calling people out for affecting games negatively with RL excuses. It makes it so much harder to get a full set of data. Fucking replace out and suffer the meta consequences if you can't even post an opinion once a day. I don't give a shit. The only time I've EVER lurked was as scum, and that was in the late game when things were cramping up. If you don't want to play mafia why the fuck should I accept null slots which can't be read as a part of my game?

How many scum do you think are in the lurkers? (And seriously if you say 25% I'm just going to ignore you for a bit because obviously you don't give a crap about OUR GAME THAT WE'RE PLAYING RIGHT NOW), so Tia for a measured response.

:S

[talah]

even though you just showed that you are aware of your scum meta and could therefore alter your meta accordingly.

Can I just ask placidly what kind of person you think is not aware of their scum meta, and adjusting accordingly?

[talah]

I think I misread Pidgeon just because he was pushing hard.

But it's at the point where he has to be an idiot, or scum. Every time I come back after posting something he's taking the opportunity to pull something I've said out of context and call it scummy. It's highly distracting to me, and I don't think he's an idiot.

VOTE: Pidgeon


@Pere - I don't know why you're scumreading me and I'm having trouble caring. But you *really* think I'm *bussing* Luca?

OKAY


The rest of the questions can wait till I'm "back" in a bit.

[talah]

Fine. Not like Pidgeon's gonna happen today anyway.

VOTE: 4nxi3ty

Baa-aaa

[talah]

Rogers, I have - what - half a dozen? Eight? - completed games under my belt including a couple I replaced out of. Where you're getting the idea that I'm some kind of superscum or supertown I have no idea. Historically I've been able to town pretty hard by screaming and raging, but I really don't like that aspect of myself. So yeah, I have some *personal* cog-dis, but unless it's related to me gaining some kind of scum-benefit - what's the purpose of even pointing it out?

Now, tottle off like a good sprung unit and stop loading me up with your pointless questions when I already have a significant backlog of reasonable questions to catch up with. If you think I'm scum,

PUSH FOR MY WAGON!!!!!!1!!1

[talah]

Why do we still have no wagons forming.

[talah]

UNVOTE: 4nxi3ty
VOTE: Luca

Get on this Rogers. Put your money where your voluble mouth is for once.

[talah]

Will lynch:
Luca
aptil
Snow
Rogers

Might lynch:
Snork
pisskop
Pidgeon
Chemist

Edit: 4 pedit posts.. Getting to it *sigh*

[talah]

LOL. Man I want to so bad. Follow you there? Not so much.

You should be able to make your decisions on who to vote independently of what I might or mightn't do. Like I said anyway, if there's no sliver of doubt in your mind that I'm scum, you should be selling my scum-virtues to everyone else and asking them to vote me. I don't see that.

So you're in a position where you must doubt that one of Luca or I is scum, because if we're both scum, then you shouldn't have a problem helping me bus my buddy. Are you hesitating because you called everyone voting lurkers scum, so now that you're scum reading Luca you can't vote him because you know you'll be called a hypocrite for it?

@Talah: Why isn't Anx scum?

It may surprise you to know that I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on 4nx. I voted him because I like Admiral for town, and LOL NO WAGONS

Why do we still have no wagons forming.

You were on a pretty nice sized wagon. Why did you just weaken it?

We need to get some *viable* wagons happening. It seems like there might be some consensus here.

Dang Talah are you even scum hunting??

Not as much as I'd like to be. Quite a bit of my time has been spent trying to extricate myself from shitty pushes. I'm not sure if you're aware that you having three times the amount of posts than Zdenek, the next top poster, tends to make things incredibly hard to find a natural flow to. Especially when you appear to believe you're the "leader" and (possibly depending on your alignment) being very "pro-town" about it too.

You need to be well dead long before we get anywhere near a lylo situation. For the record.

[talah]

LOL. Man I want to so bad. Follow you there? Not so much.

You should be able to make your decisions on who to vote independently of what I might or mightn't do. Like I said anyway, if there's no sliver of doubt in your mind that I'm scum, you should be selling my scum-virtues to everyone else and asking them to vote me. I don't see that.

So you're in a position where you must doubt that one of Luca or I is scum, because if we're both scum, then you shouldn't have a problem helping me bus my buddy. Are you hesitating because you called everyone voting lurkers scum, so now that you're scum reading Luca you can't vote him because you know you'll be called a hypocrite for it?

Well since you are pushing this point, no I am hesitating because (and these are the thought processes that I am trying to disentangle atm) even though Luca is scum central and everything in me says lynch him immediately, he is also a lurker and I am simply wondering if the resulting wagon will be poor upon his death. He is in my scum list, I totally want to lynch him and right now BUT can we do better? The thought occurs to me that Luca might get sorted and we can focus elsewhere today.

Its true. I need someone to help me think that through. Because if we just base it on actions in-thread and think of nothing else, Luca needs speed lynching and I would of been on that wagon ahead of you (in this case).

What do you think of Luca's jump onto the 4nx wagon?

@Talah: Why isn't Anx scum?

It may surprise you to know that I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on 4nx. I voted him because I like Admiral for town, and LOL NO WAGONS

Well this is at least consistent with your previously stated game plan BUT why don't you care either way? I HET lynching town D1.

I didn't say I don't care either way. I said I don't have a strong opinion one way or another on 4nx('s alignment).

Why do we still have no wagons forming.

You were on a pretty nice sized wagon. Why did you just weaken it?

We need to get some *viable* wagons happening. It seems like there might be some consensus here.

I'm just going to be honest, that is exactly how I think as scum; I'm looking for the most lynchable target and I weigh the opinions of all the players to find consensus so I know who to lynch.

See as town, I'm like who is the scummiest player, THE VERY SCUMMIEST that I can be voting for AND THEN, if it is even appropriate to consider consensus, do I consider that.

Your mindset doesn't seem to be what I would consider town at all. It would fit better to explain someone that wants to get back to their scum Q/T instead.

Why don't you mention anything about who is scummier?

Go read Hito's thread on compromising as town in MD.

Dang Talah are you even scum hunting??

Not as much as I'd like to be. Quite a bit of my time has been spent trying to extricate myself from shitty pushes.

I HET this excuse. Do you see me caving under Nero pressure? Ok, can you explain your time pressure issues in ANY WAY?

Do you really want me to go into RL shit to "excuse" myself? Fine. Windows XP goes end of life April 8 and I still have about 120 clients to migrate in the next couple of weeks.

I'm not sure if you're aware that you having three times the amount of posts than Zdenek, the next top poster, tends to make things incredibly hard to find a natural flow to. Especially when you appear to believe you're the "leader" and (possibly depending on your alignment) being very "pro-town" about it too.

I am not "the leader" except of myself. Everyone is the leader. Everyone has a keyboard and is logged into the forum.

You are blaming my posting volume on your lack of scum hunting?? Or no its all the attacks against you.

I'm saying your posting volume is jamming the thread with useless dross which you're not even doing anything sensible with.

You need to be well dead long before we get anywhere near a lylo situation. For the record.

DANGIT. This takes the cake. NOW you're the EXPERT PLAYER judging who needs to be in LYLO. You can't scum hunt worth a dime. You whine about only having 8 games. You float from wagon to wagon without a care. You blame everyone and everything you possibly can. But you're an expert.

Seriously you need to check Wiki Rules 1-3 because you fit all of them to a T.

Follow you to Luca? No way.

What I know about you, is that you have a scumread on me which is incorrect, and you won't vote your own scumread Luca, because another of your scumreads (me) is calling Luca scum. Among other things.

So yeah if you're town I don't want you in a position where you have sole responsibility for any decision in this game.

[talah]

Mate, if you have a wiki with opinions it's just as likely as filled with bullshit as your posting in this game.

You have my /ignore button for the remainder of this game unless you start making some sense.

Oh - and seeing you're having a whole lot of trouble getting *other* folks to want to vote me, but rather are just engaging in pointless back-and-forth, half concessions and pandering to folks who are scumhunting on you, here, have this:

UNVOTE: Luca
VOTE: talah

(My will lynch/might lynch list stands)

I'll discuss the situational merits of this strategy with others, but I'm not responding to another fucking thing you post, and I'm making it my purpose in this game to make sure that you get vigged or lynched before - let's say Day 3, if I happen to be around long enough.

Goodnight, and sweet dreams.

[talah]

@Town:

Talah learn how to play Mafia.

Let me guess: "Since I'm town you lynch me and when I flip town you lynch Rogers."

See there? Rogers just acknowledged that I'm town, or could be - and yet he's voting me and not pushing for my lynch, over his 5-6 scumreads which he claims everyone should have, and that he's also not pushing.

He's expressing doubt that I'm scum - whereas Luca is almost a shoo-in for scum, were it not for the fact that I was voting Luca. But he won't VOTE Luca, his top scumread.

What's with that? You don't tell SCUM to learn to play mafia when they're in practically no danger of being lynched, do you? You don't NOT vote your scumreads based on unflipped associative tells, do you?

OMGOSH. HEADDESK.

I freaking give up.

But.. What's there to give up on? Is Rogers trying to prove I'm scum to myself? Is he trying to educate me to make me a better player? What exactly is Rogers "giving up" on?

It makes no sense if Rodgers believes I'm scum.

[talah]

@Town:

Mate, if you have a wiki with opinions it's just as likely as filled with bullshit as your posting in this game.

If I post BS, you need to point it out but seeing as you haven't... (WELP).

Not only that but you have Z-E-R-O scum hunting at all period.

You dare criticize me for posting? Die scum.

What's this? More dross posting from Rogers? Fake rage at being criticised for having THREE TIMES the amount of posts as the next most prolific poster? More engagement and pointless arguing with his "scum read"?

Rogers is posting like he STILL NEEDS TO SORT ME, not like he already has me pegged for scum and wants others to help him lynch me.

Oh - and seeing you're having a whole lot of trouble getting *other* folks to want to vote me, but rather are just engaging in pointless back-and-forth, half concessions and pandering to folks who are scumhunting on you, here, have this:

If I am having trouble then there is no problem right? I mean no pressure, this Bert alt is derp voting me, big freaking deal. I'm gonna catch me some scum because I'm a quality player not a derp like Bert-alt over there.

But your response? Go into orbit and self-vote.

More cog-dis. More out of place AtE.

Hmm - I'm having trouble deciphering Roger's point here. Surely HE'S the Bert alt. Why would he need to ASSERT that he's a quality player? Isn't that a judgement that OTHERS need to make?

And let's all reflect for a moment on just what "cog-dis" means.
Well, it's cognitive dissonance, of course, but just what does it mean right here?

Usually when people are called out for cognitive dissonance, it means that they were presenting an opinion, which doesn't match with another opinion they've expressed.

But where's the cognitive dissonance here? I say there is none. I say Rogers is using it as a buzz-word which is easily digested and entirely unsubstantiated, because any discredit is better than needing to push a case on me. If Rogers felt like cognitive dissonance was at play, surely it would be easy for him to be explicit about what the dissonance IS.

Wanna see the king of cog-dis?

I'm making it my purpose in this game to make sure that you get vigged or lynched before - let's say Day 3, if

I

happen to be around long enough.

Somebody is planning on this self-vote to keep him around for days to come. Sure he throws in "if I'm around" at the end but his intent is clear.

Also, has site meta changed? Do people just self-vote all the time now as a defense?

I'm calling this piece "Rogers Misrepresents (feat. Ignoring Context)"

Rodgers plainly states that his scumread (me) is exhibiting buzzword "cog-dis", by self-voting and saying he might be around longer than -well- RIGHT NOW really, since that's an unspecified variable on Rogers part.

But Rogers IGNORES the fact that this same scumread (me) ALSO specifies "if" he's around - also specifies he will "discuss this situational strategy with others", and also specifies that his "Will lynch/Might Lych" hasn't changed.

So if Rogers' scumread (me) isn't ACTUALLY planning on being on his own wagon at the end of the day - where's the cognitive dissonance, and why does Rogers ignore context entirely in an effort to produce an example of it?

No, my esteemed friends, this is an example of Scum at its most mediocre, or Town at its worst. Literally the only pro-town behaviour that Rogers has displayed, is posting in droves and asking questions. If you look any deeper than that, Rogers is NOT ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING with the ANSWERS TO HIS QUESTIONS except, superficially coming to conclusions. There is no true town motivation to the volume of posts being made by Rogers.

[talah]

Talah take that vote off yourself that is just awful self voting :facepalm:

Maybe later. We don't have enough information right now.

[talah]

And how exactly is your self vote going to provide more info to town?



waiting........

Usually people give reasons when they join wagons, and as the wagon size increases it becomes more attractive to scum who want to mislynch. I think the largest wagon we've had so far has been 4 votes. If I get wagonned up higher than that then at least we have some info on who joined the wagon and why.

[talah]

Well the other two points are you commenting about my take on matt and not liking my call on AP.

I was wondering about your "fuck you -ish" attitude statement, actually. And you used that to claim you had a "Townish" read on bjc for displaying it. I just found that odd.

bjc seems like a 'fuck you' guy. In addition to what I've already said. Until he posts something that looks scummy to me - I have him town leaning.

Might lynch:
Snork

Yeah actually I find your reads repulsive.
*coughAHEM* I mean, welcome to the thread.

[talah]

Here you go:

VOTE: Talah

And the reason I'm scum?

[talah]

I just figured out your main by the way.

Ed:

- Defending people without reason
- Attacking people for attacking other people you aren't even town reading
- "I'm so lost!" followed by "You fucks obviously need time to work things out".
- Illogical reversals without explanation

Should I continue? I can get quotes if you like.

- defending people without reason isn't a scumtell unless you want to use that information to prove something about the folks I'm defending after I flip, so yeah, back yourself with names at least (I don't care about quotes)

- yeah that's right, I did make a big thing about the bjc thing and I didn't have much of a read on him at the time; I was actually trying to clarify why certain people were reading him as they were (if that's what you're referring to)

- yep, the I'm Lost (TM) (wow, what a weak thing to call someone scum for btw) post was first thing in the morning and was absolutely true at the time, probably a side-effect of being attacked by you-know-who so irrationally so early on. I never really got a chance to make this game feel like my own

- if you want me to explain any reversal at all, all you need to do is ask. That's easy since I'm town.

[talah]

I also find it funny that Talah finds my reads from page 12 repulsive, switched from town-reading the slot that had no content, to "might lynch" without ever interacting with me at all.

Good scumhunting bro.

I don't have to interact with you to read your posts and have an opinion on you. Fact is, you've interacted with virtually nobody so far anyway.

[talah]

I also find it funny that Talah finds my reads from page 12 repulsive, switched from town-reading the slot that had no content, to "might lynch" without ever interacting with me at all.

Good scumhunting bro.

You also weren't here at page 12.

[talah]

@Town:

Something is causing this imbalance. I assert that the "something" is exaggerated over-sensitivity to suspicion. I personally feel this more of a scum trait than a town trait.

And here, fellow townies, is Rogers softening his read on the player he's voting (me) and commencing Operation Finally Fucking Pushing A Case (TM).

But why would Rogers want to hedge on his scumread being scum? Is he truly going to push a policy lynch when he's been so very clear that he's scum reading me?

Answer: It's a trick question! Rodgers has, actually, been 100% opaque on whether he thinks I'm actually scum. He's hedging on all fronts, now calling it bad null play and seamlessly transitioning from an initial attack and resultant townread, to a period of silence and progressive scumread while bogging down the thread with questions which any educated rhinoceros could ask based on the events unfolding in front of its eyes.

This man who believes my play scum and asked for meta, has not even looked at the meta he asked for.

[talah]

My main?

And you don't seem to read so well. The reads you are referring to, the only reads I've posted so far, are reads I acquired from reading the thread

up to page 12

which I had pretty explicitly stated. It wasn't like that was a hidden fact or anything. I'm still on page 33 right now in fact and have to post an updated analysis.

Instead of querying me on whether I'd finished, or if my reads had changed, knowing they were from events that occurred over 20 pages ago, you flip your position without explanation and without any attempt at sorting why your read changed.

See, when I start to feel someone is more town or less town, I usually know why, and I ask them about that why so i can determine if it's something valid. You didn't bother doing that. You know, you didn't bother trying to determine if I was actually scum or not. You threw me in that "might lynch" list because... ? Because you didn't like my reads? From page 12?

Come on now.

Well, whatever. I based my "might lynch" assessment of you on the fact that your reads were so shitty and obtuse.
Go about your catch-up then, but I still wanna hear that list of who I've been defending without reason.

Not a fan of your vote atm.

[talah]

talah, do you get an almost Wake-from-Gundam-ish vibe from Mister Rogers? I think he's town.

Possibly. Although Titus has been on the tip of my tongue more so (along with Saki from FE:A).

[talah]

Shitty and obtuse? Strong language. Why are they shitty and obtuse?

Shitty: they're nowhere near my own and are in direct conflict
Obtuse: the reasons for the reads were inadequately explained, or outright not explained at all

[talah]

So why didn't you ask me to clarify?

I feel overwhelmed with accusations to refute. Others seem more town. Pidgeon characterised your entry post as 'ridiculously town'. I felt like I had enough data already to feel comfortable with your lynch if it came down to a compromise.

still wanna hear that list of who I've been defending without reason.

This please.

[talah]

Talah, I guess I disagree. Mister Rogers just seems

really

into the game and wanting everything done his way to an extent that I can't see scum mimicking. I will also say that I doubt your push on Mister Rogers (nor your self-vote) is going to lead anywhere today and you most likely won't be getting my support, but feel free to prove me wrong, as I acknowledge that I could be wrong about MR.

Ehhhh.. Look yeah I get where you're coming from, and I agree that town can be the worst kind of tunnellers and wrong wrong wrong. I had Rogers as town earlier and please take my editorialisations with a grain of salt. But he's really really irritating and is making this game a really easy place for scum to hide. A lot of people are townreading him; noone's prepared to back his positions. It's just something that needs to be called out for the crap it is.

[talah]

And by that, I essentially mean the amount of shitposting he's doing.

If he's town, scum have got to love it. I'll even go so far as to say he doesn't even have to be wrong about everything he's saying - it's the need to filter through the dead skin which is damaging.

Ed: DAMN YOU PLES TAKING MY POSTS OUT OF CONTEXT
(Also I've played in a previous game Ples modded and never said Hi, so "HAI" :D)

[talah]

Talah, so much digging going on. He claims I am a shoe-in for scum (absolute rubbish, since when has inactivity always equated to scum) and then self-votes. His opening posts also looked every so slightly dodgy.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Talah

...

{crickets chirping}

[talah]

Soooo... You're willing to lynch me because a couple of my entry post were 'every so slightly dodgy' and I've voted myself?

What happened in between?

You were on the same wagon as me with 4nxi3ty as well. What was scummy about that vote I made, then?

Do you have other opinions on the game?

Ed: ^@Luca

[talah]

Talah, let's assume you're town. Just blanket alignment trust, for a moment.

Besides MR, who is the scum on your wagon right now?

I'd rather leave that for a moment and see how this thing pans out.

[talah]

And you're not allowed to say "Snork" either because I already know that's false. I am looking to get your perspective on the others.

p-edit: I don't have a main.

This is kind of an aside but I was thinking you may have played a small part in Fire Emblem, never mind.

[talah]

Talah, let's assume you're town. Just blanket alignment trust, for a moment.

Besides MR, who is the scum on your wagon right now?

I'd rather leave that for a moment and see how this thing pans out.

I'd rather we had an honest discourse.

I really want your answer to my 966. It feels important to me.

[talah]

EBWOP: "had" should be "have".

But seriously, Talah. You don't want to analyze your own wagon?

Five votes, one of which is mine, is barely good wagon analysis.
This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

[talah]

Ah that reminds, I've actually changed my mind about Pisskop. I kind of liked the way he responded to me last night. I think his reads are pretty bad but I can see what he's doing.

+1 Wow I think I am very glad you are here. :)

See, in this instance I don't even know what Rogers is saying. Is he saying that Snork is town? Is he saying that pisskop it town? Both? Is he buddying Snork?

Who knows. Certainly not anyone.

[talah]

I get what MR is saying with 992.

Is he saying that he's reading both you and pisskop as town then?

Would you prefer I gave you some off-the-top-of-my-head BS answer? This is going to take time to compile, as I have not ISO'd you in depth yet. But it is on my list.

No, I'm asking you to back your assertion, which if I remember was "you're defending players without reason". I want to know who those players are. It has nothing to do with your opinion of me.

This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you think jumping at shadows, or what appear to be shadows, is a scumtell?

I sometimes wish that Town were more wifommy than they actually are. But the other part of my problem with Pidgeon (as with mastin, as with Zdenek), is that his(/their) arguments are broad sweeping statements (ie "This can only come from a scum mindset" and characterisations of statements without regard to context (things like "what talah's essentially saying" and the like). They don't read as authentic town arguments to me.

[talah]

My take on it was that it was a progression. Initially I think he thought he could manipulate me (coercion into voting lurkers) & buddy me (compliment me on BJC improving the game state) but once it became official (I posted my short scum list & re-voted him), he named me as a scum suspect.

Rogers states that I was coercing him into voting lurkers, and then posts a large scumlist, which is mainly lurkers. Which he then refuses to vote.

In This Post, he accuses me of buddying him by overtly insulting him and saying his posts are bad, but that he should remind me if I had townread him for having a position which was "bjc should be lynched to repair the game state". Rogers did not question me on this, but rather went about his merry 30+ posts per day.

I townread Rogers from that, actually, because he was inferring that we'd get the most information by lynching someone he thought was scum and who had posted at least more than twice or three times. This I understood.

And of course, Rogers is allowed to state his scumspects, but his narrative implies that his scumspects are scummy if they suspect him.

[talah]

12:45am, seeya.

Answer my question Syr.

[talah]

I wouldn't call that progression - at least not a natural one.

I can only use (amazingly enough) Mastin's words: "He is looking for ways to manipulate people".

Rogers states that he believes I am capable of this, having requested meta and making no reference to his conclusions on any meta.

He then uses mastin2's argument, to pad out his nonexistent case, which he still isn't pushing.

[talah]

I get what MR is saying with 992.

Is he saying that he's reading both you and pisskop as town then?

I believe he's trying to say he likes the thought process. His agreement or disagreement isn't included, and I believe it would imply he is town-reading me. His stance on pisskop isn't really relevant here, imo. I could just be on an ego trip but that's what I got out of it.

MR - would you agree with my interpretation?

Would you prefer I gave you some off-the-top-of-my-head BS answer? This is going to take time to compile, as I have not ISO'd you in depth yet. But it is on my list.

No, I'm asking you to back your assertion, which if I remember was "you're defending players without reason". I want to know who those players are. It has nothing to do with your opinion of me.

I know that. I never said it had anything to do with my opinion of you. Where are you getting that? I said it would take me ISOing you because I haven't yet. Otherwise, I don't remember the specifics because I'm a pothead. I don't remember who. When I read a thread in one shot I jot down my impressions and the numbers of any Super Duper Important Posts^tm. I don't write novels. And, against better judgement, I like to jump right into the conversation as soon as I have an idea of what I'm looking at. So, I gave my off-the-cuff impressions from what I could remember, to explain my vote to you, since you asked. I wouldn't have remarked on it if it hadn't happened; I didn't just make it up. And as I said, it's on my list, and I

will

get back to you.

This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you think jumping at shadows, or what appear to be shadows, is a scumtell?

I sometimes wish that Town were more wifommy than they actually are. But the other part of my problem with Pidgeon (as with mastin, as with Zdenek), is that his(/their) arguments are broad sweeping statements (ie "This can only come from a scum mindset" and characterisations of statements without regard to context (things like "what talah's essentially saying" and the like). They don't read as authentic town arguments to me.

:neutral: You didn't really answer my question here. Or I don't understand your response. You said you had a problem with AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course", to which I asked if you thought that was a valid scumtell. But then you answered something else, about how AP (and others) gave broad, sweeping judgements. That seems to be an entirely different thing.

Do you think jumping at shadows, or what appear to be shadows, is a scum tell?

p-edit: Stuff.

Note to self - I'll get back to this, alright. Lots of words. Let me take a quick look and see if there's anything which is straightforward.

[talah]

I don't know if AP is "jumping at shadows" and I don't know what YOU mean by "jumping at shadows" if that didn't answer the question to your satisfaction. You're going to need to tell me just what those shadows are if you care for an accurate response.

/out

[talah]

PRE EDIT

[talah]

Oh okay the question at the end was just what I asked.

Seriously "jumping at shadows" is so vague that you really ARE going to have to cite an example, because it could mean anything, and mainly I think it means you have an opinion or at least contention that AP was thinking in a certain way to be able to say that.

Anyway, game shit aside, fuck off you guys I gotta go to bed. Latez.

[talah]

Talah, all I'm asking is if you feel that AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course" is a valid scum tell or not.

This is somewhat frustrating.

This seriously only requires a 'Yes' or 'No' answer, which I haven't gotten yet, and that's why I'm dissatisfied.

No, you can clarify what you mean by paraphrasing it as "jumping at shadows".

Otherwise the answer is "possibly, depending on context"

[talah]

*sigh*

Talah. I rephrased what you said. To me, jumping at shadows is the same thing as jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course. It's less words which appeals to me.

That's all

. There is literally no distinction, in my mind, between the two, because I am asking you about something

you said

:

EBWOP: "had" should be "have".

But seriously, Talah. You don't want to analyze your own wagon?

Five votes, one of which is mine, is barely good wagon analysis.

This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you believe the bolded in your quote is a valid scum tell, Yes or No?

There is no yes or no answer to what you're asking.

And they most definitely are not the same thing, and you paraphrased it in that way because you have some underlying opinion on AP.

"Jumping at shadows"
"Jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course"

One implies a wrong opinion from AP (yours).
The other implies he's not doing town-wifom, nor being circumspect about possible town motivation (mine).

May I go to bed now, Mistress?

[talah]

Lol@Rogers

Literally every player in the post he quoted is town.

If he's looking for scum-me, why not start with my scum game?

THE MIND FUCKING BOGGLES

[talah]

Like... this would be pretty easy for town to answer you know... I mean.. at this point I just want to force you to commit to your method of scum hunting so I can call you out on it.

And your responses are increasingly frustrating.

Hey - MY responses are not increasingly frustrating, since you're after a straight 'yes' or 'no'.

YOURS on the other hand, are inherently obfuscatory, because you're refusing to even clarify what the fuck you mean, and refusing to accept my answer in anything other than 'yes' or 'no' format.

Hey look, I understand, your MO is to lynch the juiciest player who might actually have a late game going on.
Great! Keep about it.

And in the meantime

ANSWER MY FUCKING QUESTION

BEFORE TEMPTING MY GOOD GRACES

BY HUMOURING YOUR BULLSHIT

[talah]

It is extremely difficult for me to refrain from capslock raging at you right now for twisting the point into oblivion and playing stupid.

Why don't you state your point rather than hiding it behind a necessary 'yes' or 'no' to a question based on a paraphrased statement you've butchered and presented to me as if it was the statement I made.

[talah]

Are you kidding me? I quoted you, and asked if you thought that behavior was a scum tell or not.

What's so "obfuscatory" about that? Nothing. And using buzzwords to continue avoiding the issue is just another nail in your coffin.

Hi, you didn't quote me, you started the sentence with 'Jumping at', just like I did, and then put something else at the end.

That's bullshit.

[talah]

Also fuck off.

I was off to bed half an hour ago.

UNVOTE:

[talah]

Now quote every post you just made where you said "Jumping at shadows", and help me understand the difference, and why you selectively quoted only the posts where you *didn't* say what I was specifically arguing against being the same thing.

[talah]

While you're at it, quote the post where I *Explicitly Answered You*, if indeed your question was regarding what I *actually said* rather than the one that you *made up and which had a different meaning*

Here's a hint: the answer has the word "context" in it.

[talah]

ZOMG IT'S REALLY BEDTIME

ZOMG

[talah]

If Joe Shmoe tells me his mother is in the hospital, and I ask him how her health had been prior to that, and he tells me he doesn't know how to answer me because "health" is such a vague word, I mean.. wut. This is what you are doing. I'm asking you a simple question and you are acting like it's so fucking hard to understand.

p-edit: Talah, you never answered me. You have yet to answer me.

Me: Do you think X is a scumtell?
You: Well what is X?
Me: X is what you said in this post.
You: I can't answer that because you didn't say what I said.
Me: I rephrased what you said because what you said had too many words, but essentially I want to know about you said, of course.
You: But I can't answer that because you didn't say what I said.
Me: Okay, but can you just answer about what YOU said?
You: No because you didn't say what I said.

:facepalm:

X(Spork) is what you said my X is. Which is not my X.

You said "jumping at shadows".
That's not the same as "jumping in and fucking up perfectly good townplay"

Vive la difference.

[talah]

Talah, all I'm asking is if you feel that AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course" is a valid scum tell or not.

This is somewhat frustrating.

This seriously only requires a 'Yes' or 'No' answer, which I haven't gotten yet, and that's why I'm dissatisfied.

No, you can clarify what you mean by paraphrasing it as "jumping at shadows".

Otherwise the answer is "possibly, depending on context"

Jesus christ. IN THE CONTEXT OF THE POST

YOU MADE ABOUT

AP

.

Fuck.

I already answered it.

It depends on the context.

If you're asking me if AP is scum, that's a different matter.

Why are you so stuck on this? I mean I already answered it a couple of posts after you asked.

[talah]

Actually,

please don't

.

I am completely finished talking to you.

ScumTalah can hang, please.

Oh thank you, I can SLEEP now?

After your insanely irrational push?

Oh yay I love this game. So logic. Much involved.

[talah]

Talah, regardless of your alignment, don't let this game affect you too much. Esp. if your town, players will be players and do silly things and be frustrating etc. and if you're scum then I understand even moreso.

Roger. Pun intended. Still town, but thanks.

[talah]

Can someone tell Vadgers to actually look up my scum meta, which consists in its entirety, of one game?

Because he's effectively saying that I'm newb-scum who has mastered the art of scumming with effectively zero experience. He's also not cross-referencing any of my other town games, which do demonstrate an evolution of process.

Meta can be done right, and it can be done wrong, and then it can be done like this. Doing none of the work and presenting it as a polished "meta case".

[talah]

He is

contradicting his town meta

playing differently from what I'm presenting as a full picture of his town meta in the single Gundam post I quoted

in this game and all you have to say is that "there is plenty of variance in people's town games and so its not a significant tell".

I hate fixing errors for people.

[talah]

Will lynch:
Luca
aptil
Snow
Rogers

Might lynch:
Snork
pisskop
Pidgeon
Chemist

Edit: 4 pedit posts.. Getting to it *sigh*

all of these are either low hanging lurkers or blatant omgus.

Riii-iiight.

So you're suggesting I expand this to include folks I'm either townreading or want to give time to prove themselves one way or another.

[talah]

I never lie about real life issues, including my experience, including any real life circumstances, anything which isn't "really" game related. Not as any alignment.

[talah]

Oakhaven was the first mafia game I played anywhere.

[talah]

Oakhaven was my first mafia game anywhere, I haven't played any variants, and I've only played on this site.

I would appreciate it if you would stop slandering my character regarding

facts

which are

outside of the game.

[talah]

I think I already did explain it Nero, it's somewhere in my ISO buried under all the posts. Search 'multi'.

I've just got to say, though, I have practically no impetus to go on with this game. So I have to go to work now, and depending on how I'm feeling I may post a final reads list if I also get a chance to do so.

At this stage I think it's probably best if we consolidate our position by flipping me and then looking at the reasons people joined my wagon with that information available. Since my strategy would be Lynch Mister Rogers --> Find Scum, I don't know that I can stand another game Day of the same when it's going to be the same bullshit all over again if I manage to eke by anyway.

[talah]

VOTE: Luca

L-2

Will make time to post reads tonight (12-ish hours).

Nero's prob-town for his reaction to Roger's flake btw, and I dunno if he's being attacked right now because he's expressed an okay-ness with lynching me if it comes down to it.. Or what.

Interested in penguin's catch up and I'd also like mastin to participate soon if she can.

[talah]

Quick drop in- so a quick note to all.

Vote: Talah

You were already voting me, and stated your case in Post 1178.

Which is actually just a bunch of quotes which agree with Rogers that my play in Gundam is different from my play here followed by a vote with what seems to be the fewest words you can muster:

@talah-

You are in luck. Rogers has pinpointed the precise reason. And he cares. And still, yes I do.

Vote: talah

Also, the snork question was a legitimate question, and he had more patience than I would have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl8ajhu_e5Y

..and then wash your hands of further case-bringing in order to prove your point.

But if Rogers was right about my play being so different in Gundam - why didn't you notice it first and say something? Ask me something about it?
And in Gundam you were there right through the whole Wake debacle. You've seen me have doubt, express emotion, scream opinions, rage.

So what exactly are you seeing as different?

I ctrl+f-d Rogers iso for 'talah'. The count was 250. He 'only' posted 391 times. That's not "good scumhunting" and "town play" - it's "crazed obsession".
And it gets wearing. I don't know if he's scum, I don't know if I provoked him to it, I don't know if he's a Wake alt, I just don't even fucking know.

You also owe me an explanation regarding unflipped associatives - ie my question in 795 regarding you wondering if I could be bussing Luca in the in-thread Mason QT you started with Pidgeon.

Day 1 Mason QT

Check Luca's ISO. Apologizing prod-dodging and a defense of bjc. And talah could be bussing for towncred. Yates wagon is non-starter. My ThAd townread is hard-gut (see 588), so, barring an unusual turn of events, probably not.

@Pere - I don't know why you're scumreading me and I'm having trouble caring. But you *really* think I'm *bussing* Luca?

---
So...

Pere

Is a mixed bag. I originally had him as likely town because he usually has a pretty sparse and neutral townplay from what I remember and I wanted to see how that panned out as a tell having not seen him play scum before. Really early on I thought he and Admiral might be crumbing masons and decided to steer clear of that too (and did note it in one of my earlier posts). His activity seems up here and he seems to be a lot more opinionated than I remember generally. I obviously don't like the vote and push on me with no real reference to why I'm a preferable lynch to Luca, but I'd expect him to have an extremely strong case to push so hard for my lynch Day 1.

Ultimately he's in my "wait and see" basket with a possible scumlean.

Incidentally I don't think I've ever seen Pere lose patience, and he experienced BulbaFenix vs talah in FE:A, the townshitting argument of the century. So that's just guff.

[talah]

Nero's town.

I'm gonna call Nero scum. Straight up.

Sorry can't take the posting attack pressure. That attack has broken me. Thanks Snor.

Mod replace me.

.....................................................................

I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG!

:( :( :(

Although I'm cautious of Nero's scumgame, I see this as a massive spontaneous subconscious slip.
I like the flow of his posting this game as well, from troll-bravado, to taking on Rogers, to confronting Snork, pretty much the lot.

Deas is town.

I don't know if I need to say much about this, except to reciprocally mention that I don't doubt that Deas could fool me as scum.
However... there's a huge town-vibe about Deas which was absolutely not present last time I played with him.

For me, this pretty much epitomises it:

Taleh, is this DV dotting i's and crossing t's?

I really dislike that first sentence and

that question about why someone would ask for a link to a game odd

.

Are you trying to scumread me?

[talah]

On Snork:

Quite interesting and I don't know that I want to commit to a read just yet.

I had a moment of "maybe he's town" during the slapfight:

It is extremely difficult for me to refrain from capslock raging at you right now for twisting the point into oblivion and playing stupid.

..where I'd just jammed a post through over the top of preview edit almost simultaneously:

Like... this would be pretty easy for town to answer you know... I mean.. at this point I just want to force you to commit to your method of scum hunting so I can call you out on it.

And your responses are increasingly frustrating.

Hey - MY responses are not increasingly frustrating, since you're after a straight 'yes' or 'no'.

YOURS on the other hand, are inherently obfuscatory, because you're refusing to even clarify what the fuck you mean, and refusing to accept my answer in anything other than 'yes' or 'no' format.

Hey look, I understand, your MO is to lynch the juiciest player who might actually have a late game going on.
Great! Keep about it.

And in the meantime

ANSWER MY FUCKING QUESTION

BEFORE TEMPTING MY GOOD GRACES

BY HUMOURING YOUR BULLSHIT

...which made me think momentarily that we might have similar levels of frustration going on.

However I really didn't like his opening couple of posts (well the reads really) and really really didn't like AP whiteknighting him on his entrance - although that's really nothing to do with Snork himself and I'll get back to AP later.

Most of Snork's other posts - well I dunno. He only replaced in not long ago and [sarcastica]fantastically[/sarcastica] has over a hundred of them and I'm having trouble remembering a lot of what he's said, but he seems to be doing the rounds questioning people with his time on gut-feel-readalong.

Probably "wait and see" with a slight townlean.

[talah]

Back in a bit.

[talah]

I'm really not going to get through this tonight.
At least not in the detailed format I'd planned.

Scum

AP - Shitslinging, "buzzword' scumhunting, riling Rogers up or riffing off him over me-scum (his ISO also has 100+ 'talah' mentions out of roughly 100 posts which is proportionally worse than Rogers which I just spotted. Even if you consider some of those are quotes - that's a lot of fucking focus to not be bringing a coherent case)
Snow - "just look at his iso, that did it for me" on really no push but then defends the read as his own
Luca - "I apologise, I'll put time into the game" --> into "fuck you guys I'm lurking and that's a towntell"

Maybe-scum

Pere - cites meta, doesn't specify meta, meta is wrong

Dunno

Aptil - don't like aptil as a counterwagon to Luca
mastin - waiting...
Snork - Really want to see where he's going and the 'pothead' defence for not being able to explain something which he's literally just asserted isn't giving me warm fuzzies
matt - I'd actually forgotten matt was in the game until I started doing this list
penguin - waiting on input. Rogers could have been scum or town and any other read I could give would be purely subjective. I'd tend to think scum, but have an open mind.

Maybe-town

Admiral - don't understand the 4nx or aptil wagons unless they were about creating a wagon for analysis and providing an alternative if Luca claims something unlynchable respectively and I don't generally give town credit for that kind of subtlety - if it was something different I'm interested
Chemist - misgivings here about v/la and catchup which hasn't eventuated (also I'm still not understanding the sarcasm thing but I liked his "probably cause of posts like this" on Rach because it's committing to a stance)
Rach - eh. I think she's really hard to read and most of the time it's about substance rather than content if that makes any sense.
Damon - put himself on the line with the 4nx wagon and I like his posting reading along. I liked his comment about no-lynch not being an option (and I will fully reverse my opinion of that if we find out that there are both werewolf and mafia in the game). I also can't remember a single case for him as scum, although I do remember not liking the pushers. So leaning town.

Prob-town

4nx - reaction to his wagon and posts before that
Yates - I like his posting generally but it hasn't been all that memorable - taking it on Rach's authority that he can blend in as scum as I haven't seen his play but have read a couple of games, I think. In this tier because I think he's accountable but hasn't seen a lot of pressure yet and the interaction we had earlier was fairly spontaneous iirc
Zdenek - He's pushed but not in any concentrated direction. If anything I'm sketchy on the fake vig/hammer and would like to know if anyone's seen him do that before as town. Otherwise okay

Town

Deas - Not scum-deas
Nero - If he's playing a scumgame, it's a fucking good scumgame.

Anyway, that's it. That's all I'm getting to tonight.

Next steps:

Luca claim --> If unlynchable --> Lynch me.
There's a spectacular amount of wagon analysis to be had from both my flip and Luca's now.
I'm VT.

[talah]

I want to lynch scum talah damn it. Now there are 2 cws to Luca wooo.

And a counterwagon implies what?
Nice scumslip.

[talah]

Okay. I've reached a conclusion.

I'm not going to be able to engage with this game because I don't have the time to do so, and the arguments levelled against me would require some significant work to refute. If you add to that the major argument which *will* be pressed onto me in future, which is "aw shucks, lookit that lack of scumhunting COUGHMETACOUGH", this game is going to be quite unplayable for me on normal terms, and I don't feel I have the mental wherewithal to deal with it under different terms.

I had been thinking of replacing earlier but decided to nut up since it's Ples's game and frankly I'm a fan of the playerlist too. So I'm not replacing and I hope you can understand that despite what would generally be called 'bad town play', I'm going to do this and ask that my town reads sheep me on it:
UNVOTE: Luca
VOTE: talah

Having seen mastin's return I'm starting to wonder if I might actually buy that she's town. If anything I think she's sheeping AP, which ultimately is a VERY BAD MOVE for town-mastin, if you're reading. AP is *twitchy* in this game. He's too quick to call people scum for what might eventuate into town play. He's cramping styles and swashbuckling his opinion very quickly on things he wants shut down. And you know I stumbled onto the fact that he has *less posts than references to talah in his ISO* absolutely by mistake - but it's condemning. He only makes one post where he thinks I might be town and I think it's bullcrap because he doesn't comment on the response, but rather, opportunistically sheeps Rogers onto his talah-scum read, and sits in the background on that topic making snide comments about how everything I'm posting could 'only come from a scum mindset'.

I would like very much if you would take into consideration the latest readslist I've posted after I flip town. I'm actually not so concerned about Luca being alive into the future because if he's scum (and he most likely is), he'll never make it past Day 2 or 3 if he continues to lurk and troll against his initial vector of 'I am sincerely sorry that I cannot post now, but will provide content soon'. One of us needs to die and at this stage I have absolutely no problem with it being me. Should I survive, I'm going to be posting much less and picking my battles.

So this post and a prod-dodge is going to finish up the game day for me.

But one of Luca or myself needs to die, and at this stage I think further Day 1 discussion is pretty moot.
Leaving us *both* alive is going to make tomorrow easily accessible to scum because they can continue on with the same old arguments and pushes. There is absolutely no need to be creating any other wagon at this late stage of the game.

So anyway, have fun.

[talah]

I think further Day 1 discussion is pretty moot.

This is pretty poor, considering mastin just started back in here and pa has yet to post since replacing in....

Plus, that entire post is far more dramatic than is necessary when your wagon is L-6 and Luca is L-1.

Look I've got a headache and am off work crook today so I shouldn't be posting but I'm around.

You may think it's dramatic but I think it's the best move for town to lynch one of Luca or myself for the reasons given. "It's wagon analysis, stupid!"

I very much doubt that mastin is going to provide much more content due to what I know to be some RL stuff which has been hammering her lately, and frankly I don't even expect her to. If you haven't got enough for at least a leaning read yet in that quarter then you need to leave it for another day anyway.

Ed: even if you've quote striped that's a LOOOOOT of references.

And besides, I thought you just argued that scum love cases and pretty posts with points?

[talah]

If you haven't got enough for at least a leaning read yet in that quarter then you need to leave it for another day anyway.

What does this mean? I'm town-reading mastin pretty strongly.

Oh. I thought you meant that you wanted the day to continue on so you could get a read on mastin.

[talah]

Ed: even if you've quote striped that's a LOOOOOT of references.

And this is alignment indicative in anyway because?

Because most of it necessarily occurred during Rogers' shitfit of posting, and Rogers was either very easily influenced or scum.

It's called hyperfocus.

unvote, vote: aptil

Nooooo. Im not having another street racers: Las Vegas.

This I agree with. It's going to degenerate into a clusterfuck no information probably-town lynch if we start flashwagonning.

[talah]

If you are town then this is mindblowingly anti-town, borderline blacklist worthy and your follow up that you still think Luca is a good lynch makes it even worse.

Oh fuck you. Stop backing off your scumread.

[talah]

If you are town then this is mindblowingly anti-town, borderline blacklist worthy and your follow up that you still think Luca is a good lynch makes it even worse.

Oh fuck you. Stop backing off your scumread.

Ok, so you are just scum then, got it.

Still town, and randomly lynching anyone BUT Luca or myself is ridiculous at this stage since we've been the main focuses for today. Remember when the max wagon size was three? Well now it isn't.

[talah]

flashwagons hit scum all the time, and they're funnest!

Yes, but there isn't really enough consensus or time for one right now and trying to start one will just (pick one or more of the following)
[] end day in a no-lynch
[] generate a 4th D1 claim
[] lynch someone without a claim
[] leave distractions around for tomorrow

All of the above. But they hardly ever hit scum.
Yeah, sniped it.

[talah]

Christ 2 days left...

VOTE: Talah

btw Luca, this is not a pass for you. Talah is almost certainly scum, or I need to seriously re-evaluate some of my town reads. But you need to pick it up or find a replacement.

Thenks.

I seriously don't understand why some people think as town that it is 'ok' to get lynched. In the end this is a game of numbers and if you know you're town and you are fine with your lynch rather than someone else's, then you're not playing to your win condition, because when you're town, every lynch that is not yours has a chance to be a scum lynch.

Even if you've become a distraction to town, it's your job to get them to see past the distraction or to at least try. Because if town can't see past it then I doubt they can successfully catch the scum team either.

Now to prove you're town, you could start by analyzing your lynch wagon now, instead of telling us to do so after your flip. That sounds much more productive, since doing so could possibly prevent your lynch and in the best case scenario catch scum! And this is for both talah and Luca.

I have tried, I did try, and I don't particularly care for conventional play.

[talah]

UNVOTE: talah
VOTE: Luca

[talah]

If you are lynched and flip town

, I will try my best to fill the void left by you in this game! :D

I am indeed a VT, but

if you choose to believe Talah over me

I will try to not take it personally :cry

Why are you now talking as though it's a foregone conclusion that one of us is lying?
And why do you feel the need to reaffirm your claim if you were telling the truth in the first place?

You have to question what the purpose of Talah's self-vote was considering he has just changed it back again anyway.

Well, people can either take what I've said at face value, since I've gone about explaining everything I've done when I've been asked to, or you can speculate that there might be other more nefarious and unspecified reasons (which you've just done).

[talah]

You explicitly said "If you choose to believe talah over me". That means that you're confident that I'm lying, whereas only just before that in the quote I posted, you expressed doubt that I would flip scum.

Regarding self-voting, yes I already explained in the post where I self voted, and you know this because you just stated the reasons. So you're actually now not saying that I haven't explained, you're switching out the argument by saying that you don't believe the reasons which you acknowledge that you're aware of.

And if I'm not doing what I'm doing for the reasons I've stated (ie being ganked by Rogers' amazing ability to post ten accusations a day at me consistently over periods of days before I could even get around to addressing the first, then getting worn down and giving up), how does it benefit my scumteam for me to do what I'm doing?

[talah]

It doesn't mean I'm confident you're lying, it means that from the perspective of everyone else (barring scum) no-one knows if we are telling the truth or not, so they are going to have to believe one over the other to achieve a lynch.

That doesn't make sense to me.

I'm confident that you're scum, but there's no way it would even occur to me to present an argument which is that town have to believe one or the other of us, because I know I'm not scum, so the only options I'm even considering are you-scum or you-town.

With the self-vote, yes you explained, what I perhaps should have said is your explanation wasn't a valid one. With regards to your last point, are you saying everyone should believe you are town because self-voting wouldn't benefit your scumteam if you were mafia? Seeing as you are now trying to use that as a possible defence, I'd say that's reason enough.

Why was my explanation not valid then? The facts of Rogers (and others) tunnelling me for days on end are available in-thread. You and I have had the most discussed and speculated on wagons. One of us has to go because a flash wagon is going to net town no information.

Is this the first time that you're thinking this through seriously?

[talah]

You're contradicting yourself here, as you have said numerous times that one of us have to go (even in the quote below), meaning you obviously do share the same opinion.

You think that town have to believe one or the other of us, which says that you think town need to believe one of us is most assuredly scum.

I think that you're scum, however there is no way that I would expect town to know either of our alignments, only scum.

How is that the same opinion?

It's not valid because it doesn't make sense from a town perspective, and you then go and change your vote back at the drop of a hat which undermines it anyway, as I've already said.

Getting frustrated doesn't make sense for a town perspective? Do town not get frustrated?

Changing my vote back is not exactly at the drop of a hat when half a dozen people tell me I'm an idiot unless I change it back, and we're now not going to be flashwagonning.

Where were you for the first twelve days of Today?
Did your scumteam tell you it would be fine to lurk through Day 1 because they could paint scumhunting on lurkers as scummy in and of itself?

[talah]

I just find it baffling that you're aware of events which have occurred, and yet you've taken no time whatsoever until right now to comment on anything which has been happening.

You're aware of events but are clumsily forming opinions which point to me-scum, as though you haven't previously thought about what's been going on from a town viewpoint.

And now you're trying to present the matter as though you've thought I was scum all along, having voted others for no real reason in the past, and your defence is 'If I was scum would I be playing this badly?'

How is that town? Where were you for the last 12 game days and why did you promise content and then change that to gleeful lurking?

[talah]

Are you going to ignore my question about where you've been all this time, and how your attitude changed from being apologetic about content, to saying outright that your lack of activity is a town tell?

[talah]

And what would you expect your activity to comprise of on Day 2?

Do you plan to have any opinions on the alignments of any players tomorrow?

Do you have any reads from the events of today, since you appear to acknowledge that you have been reading and thinking about the game from a town perspective?

[talah]

Well here's what you've got so far for your own reference:

Scum:
talah, bipolar

Town:
AP, Snork

With pretty much no reasoning and a lot of smileys and exclamation marks which has now turned into srsbsnss when someone's actually able to question you.

If you were town and thought you were going to be lynched, you should have posted a list then. Not have to be pressured into it.

It's like talking to two different people.

[talah]

I agree that Snok's attempted CW to Thad is p bad. The leading wagon was Luca, so it was affectively an attempt at a not Luca lynch.

All the bussing talk which started to crop up immediately I put a case on Luca too made absolutely no sense. Top wagon was 3 votes at the time.


So anyway AP, what happens when I do flip town? Or are ya just gonna avoid that inevitability entirely?
I'd like to know how your reads will be affected.

[talah]

Also Pere saying he wasn't irritated by the arguing Bulba and I did in Fire Emblem because we were so far ahead can't be true since I got scum-vigged Night 1.

Snork has a possibility of being town but if so he's being hard-buddied by scum. If you're town Snork, open your eyes.

mastin saying that AP was the only player who had 100% accuracy reading him, and then AP magically joining the thread, is too much of a coincidence to ignore.

Annnyway. Still town. But I'm done.

[talah]

I'm not going to pretend I have read every post, because I haven't, but I have followed the thread loosely and

have an idea of who I think might be leaning town/scum

. It's 23:10 where I am and I need to get up at 5am for work, so I'm off to bed. I will post more Tomorrow.

Can you actually do the bolded please.

[talah]

I dunno. I think the sequence of events (and I'll admit that modkilling Yates in this game was unfortunate but probably prudent given that posting the image virtually proved that he was scum in at least one of his games, so modkill him here and it doesn't actually compromise any others - anyway opinion)-- makes it seem like the balance was out, however I didn't think that at all at the point that I died, which you'll remember was three dead town, luckily for town, all of them VT.

Having two JOATS was likely to cause suspicion, having the gunsmith get positives on two town PRs was likely to cause suspicion, and the fact that the smith also had to (truthfully) claim that this version of the role wouldn't have gotten a guilty on a cop was likely to, and did cause suspicion as well. The game was nowhere near won for town if Yates was still in the game.

Anyway there was a bit of discussion of this in the dead thread. Overall I think scum played fairly well and got a couple of unlucky breaks, and in the end town were pushing back in the right direction for the most part. Problem is, I don't think you can say as scum that you didn't have a fighting chance because of incorrect balance, nor that you should have been afforded a compromise which would have favoured the scumteam when a member of the scumteam makes a mistake. Town making mistakes is essential to scum winning the game; scum don't have immunity when they do the same. Town had the right to argue that what could have been a slip, was indeed a slip, and not to be punished for spotting it.