Mafia 50: The Big Five Oh - Game over!

[Vyolynce]

If there were two small groups of scum and they got to make kills before day one, wouldn't two people have died?

Not necessarily.

vote: der hammer

vote: Coron

for trying to lynch the dead.

[Vyolynce]

Do you not read what other people have posted?

Indeed, there is of course doc protection/roleblocking (if that's the case, gj people, keep up the good work Wink ). Also, one scum group could kill on even nights and the other on odd (such as no vanilla mafia). If we have a SK, they most likely skipped their night 1 kill so they could claim protown vig later on (or so that we wouldn't think there's a SK in the game) (but, we aren't guaranteed a SK of course).

[Vyolynce]

Do you not read what other people have posted?

Indeed, there is of course doc protection/roleblocking (if that's the case, gj people, keep up the good work Wink ). Also, one scum group could kill on even nights and the other on odd (such as no vanilla mafia). If we have a SK, they most likely skipped their night 1 kill so they could claim protown vig later on (or so that we wouldn't think there's a SK in the game) (but, we aren't guaranteed a SK of course).

Now apply Occams razor to that and go back to my question.

Go back to which question? "Why only one kill if there might be two scum groups" or "Why not necessarily"?

[Vyolynce]

You'll have to ask Noober about that, GJ. He's the one who invoked the Razor, not me.

[Vyolynce]

Reread thread, since it's that kind of day at work. Lots of nonsense, not much helpful.

Found this, however:

Is there some way you [Machiavellian] know that he [Noober] couldn't have preformed the NK?

Does that look like fishing to anyone else?

unvote Coron, vote: Twomz

[Vyolynce]

Not Voting (4) - Bamboomancer, themanhimself, Keys Myaths

Keys is in this game?

Does he know this?

[Vyolynce]

Not Voting (4) - Bamboomancer, themanhimself, Keys Myaths

Keys is in this game?

Does he know this?

Keys has been prodded. I thought I got everyone.

Don't expect much of a response. He was prodded in one of the minis I'm in (Mentally Challenged, 316) on Friday and still hasn't posted.

[Vyolynce]

The following people have been prodded: Bambomancer, Glork, Coron, Noober, XGreyJoyX, Quig.

Considering that you yourself were a replacement for Noober in Cheese Mafia, I don't have high hopes of him answering that prod. (Well, that and he's in both other games I'm in and has disappeared from all of them.)

[Vyolynce]

Huh.

unvote Twomz

Worth a wait until Noober's replacement shows up to dispute that.

[Vyolynce]

@ Nightfall: This is actually one of the few times I think it would be detrimental to the town for me to explain exactly why I think your scum, but I will say that although I don't have a direct cop result on you, I do have enough information to draw the conclusion that you're scum.

I think I see what Twomz is getting at here. I don't think it's enough to definitively nail Nightfall to the wall -- or even force a claim out of him -- but it's at least

something

. Unfortunately, with only four actual posts from Noober, I don't think I can support pressuring Nightfall too much on whatever Twomz may have; Twomz said he doesn't have a definite cop result -- or really anything other than "a conclusion that Nightfall is scum" -- so I think the situation is too ambiguous for the town to risk revealing Nightfall's role (if any) at the moment. If Twomz gets killed, then his partner could still supply the information at a later date, when more details are available.

FoS: Everyone wanting Nightfall to claim

On the other hand, a mafia member could be loosely interpreted as "a mason with a targeting ability" and this could be a facade to draw heat away from Twomz. He claimed with 4 votes still to go, which seemed a bit early to me, although this is my first non-mini game. I'm not saying we should immediately lynch him now, but it is something to keep in mind.

Moving on...

/me lurks through the semi-random phase......

FOS Noober

FOS Twomz

One is prolly scum.....

looks like he's just trying to follow the crowd without actually contributing.

FoS: armlx

Heh funny mister "My posts consiste of me voting or FoS and nothing else".

MoS has been jumping abord bandwagons all game with no reasons stated.

He does so once agian with Nightfall, at least STD (Unvoted),Glork (Just wants him to contribute, if I understand him correctly),BJ (Seems to want a claim). Provided some kind of reasons regardless of wether or not I agree with them at least they provided some kind of rational.

Which bring me to B)Wow, whats with the Nightfall Wagon?

Also I would love to know why BJ, suddenly demands a claim of somebody who A)Just replaced, B)Is no where near critical mass?

Thus I must

Vote:MoS

, unless he wants to start doing more then just stopping lurking long enough to vote.

I agree with pretty much all of this (except the "what's with the Nightfall Wagon" bit). MoS hasn't actually contributed anything to the discussion other than being one-half of two major arguments (one with GJ, one with Coron) that were both largely crap, then calls armlx on doing essentially the same thing.

vote: MoS

Finally,

prod requests: Coron, MBL, and to a lesser extent Ibby

. Been nearly or over a week.

[Vyolynce]

you need to learn how to read.

You've already used that scintillating tactic with Coron. Find a new way to not contribute.

[Vyolynce]

So my "learning to read" will somehow reveal the contributions you've made to the thread? Sure, I'll bite. Let's just fire up the "show all posts by" function and see what I get, even though Day One seems a bit early for a play-by-play:

Original Roll String: 1d19 (STATIC)

1 19-Sided Dice: (9) = 9

he was a godfather cop, though, so that implies scum.

vote: armlx

Note: Huggle Alliance in full effect el oh el, el em ai oh

Totally random vote; no real contribution there.

Don't even start with me...

good idea.

unvote, vote: XGrayjoyX

Essentially OMGUS vote on GJ. No contribution.

That's like saying stubbornness and refusal to amend a modding decision is okay

Of the 6 people voting you, 2 at most are part of the HA, which has no affect on the way we play the game in the first place, so you just need to stfu about the HA and stop making stuff up. Stupid people like you is what got me forcibly replaced in the last game for no good reason, don't even start with me here.

I said people

like

you, and I meant that people like you overreacted to nothing, which CAUSED the decision, whether or not you agreed with it once it had happend.

Non-contributing non-sequitor conversation rooted in the relatively recent stupidity between you and Alexander.

roflmao.

try reading. I hear it's good for the intellect

cuz saying it's a load of shit without pointing out any examples or saying why is really gonna convince anyone with brains...

well you're not the only one with brains here, so why don't you give a stab at using some logic for once?

Aforementioned scintillating converasion (with Coron) regarding validity/merit of GJ wagon. Looks to me like not actually answering the question and just generally being an ass. Also, first instance of hypocracy as you demand examples from Coron without actually providing any to back up your own case.

looks like he's just trying to follow the crowd without actually contributing.

FoS: armlx

Pot meets Kettle.

wow.

No idea what this spectacular piece of insight is in reference to.

look up 2 posts from yours...

"Helpfully" pointing out a post made by then-slacking Glork; no contribution to any wagon discussion.

unvote, vote: twomz

No reason given; assumed to be agreeing with Glork and myself re: Twomz's fishing.

dum de dum

More overwhelming content. You're right, how could I have missed all this?

unvote, vote: nightfall

Wagon-hopping in response to Twomz's (alleged) information. I guess that's contributing, but I've already given my opinion of the Nightfall wagon.

You, my dear friend, need to pay attention instead of digging yourself a deeper hole. Had you actually been reading the thread, you would know that Twomz claimed to be a mason with a night action that leads him to be certain that Nightfall (formerly Noober) is scum. Nightfall being a recent replacement has nothing to do with it. Twomz has info, so we're pressuring him to claim. I suggest you hop aboard the wagon before it departs and you don't get a chance to vote your scumbuddy.

Your longest post to date; does nothing but correct GJ on some of his omissions -- by pointing out old information with no new insight -- and cast aspersions on him...

without

addressing his pointing out your apparent hypocracy in accusing armlx of being a non-contributor.

you need to learn how to read.

it's not a tactic. it's just plain truth. It obviously applied to Coron since he's stopped posting altogether, meaning he hasn't been reading the thread at all. It merely applies to you to a lesser degree. Maybe if you took my advice instead of regurgitating your previous statement, I wouldn't have to say it anymore.

Still

not addressing your own non-contributing, and ironically (hypocritically?) telling me to not regurgitate my previous statement after busting out "learn to read" (or its equivalent) for the second or third time yourself.

I know how to read very well, thank you. And what I read when I look at your posts is a constant stream of nothing. But maybe you could point out something I missed? Given your current crop of posts, I won't be holding my breath in anticipation.

[Vyolynce]

I like how in your first post you imply that there was likely two godfathers.. Why would that be? Was it because the one that died wasn't yours?

Uh, no... it's because we reached the conclusion that Der Hammer was a cop that

saught out

Godfathers, not that he was a GF with cop abilities; I'd like to think that if DH were scum then CA would have indicated this. In a 20-person game, having a cop that's only useful for finding

one

person seemed sort of stupid (unless DH had regular cop abilities as well...), so the assumption was made that there were at least 2 GFs out there, hence two mafias.

This is where your alter ego piped in wondering why there weren't two kills if there are two killing groups.

[Vyolynce]

That's like saying stubbornness and refusal to amend a modding decision is okay

Of the 6 people voting you, 2 at most are part of the HA, which has no affect on the way we play the game in the first place, so you just need to stfu about the HA and stop making stuff up. Stupid people like you is what got me forcibly replaced in the last game for no good reason, don't even start with me here.

I said people

like

you, and I meant that people like you overreacted to nothing, which CAUSED the decision, whether or not you agreed with it once it had happend.

Non-contributing non-sequitor conversation rooted in the relatively recent stupidity between you and Alexander.

What the hell did that have anything to do with Alexander? Are you on crack? Perhaps you need to reread yet

again

I'm sorry, were you forcibly replaced for an incredibly stupid reason in another mafia

besides

Alexander's?

wow.

No idea what this spectacular piece of insight is in reference to.

Try actually reading the thread. It's obviously in reference to one of the posts just before it.

Looking at the posts before it on the same page, I still can't see which one you're "wow"ing at. None of those looked "wow"-worthy to me, unless you were possibly wowed by Bacde's suggestion that "only deep confusion could have caused [GJ] to keep his vote on MoS for so long and defend it." This is why we have a "quote" function.

But really, neither of those points are relevant. Even if I accept that your reason for voting GJ was because he gave a weak reason for voting you, you still haven't done anything but pop in here and there, dropping a one-line post just often enough to avoid lurking and occasionally to hop on the fastest-moving wagon, and generally insulting anyone who dares point a single vote in your direction instead of actually defending yourself like a rational human being. If that's not scummy behavior then I've lost all meaning as to what is.


In other news, I believe Nightfall's at seven... I still don't like the wagon against him, even after his rant.

[Vyolynce]

Twomz claimed mason and that he has night investigation result that says Nightfall is scum.

Wrong, and that's Nightfall's biggest (ok... only) point in his favor.

Twomz claimed that he has night information

less than a cop investigation

that

suggests

that Nightfall

could

be scum, especially when considered against the questions Noober asked in his handful of posts. There has been

nothing

definite about his case against Nightfall, which is why my vote isn't there. It's also not on Twomz because I'm not about to lynch a claimed mason just yet, even if that claim came much earlier than one would expect.


PS: CA, I should be voting MoS.

[Vyolynce]

Twomz claimed mason and that he has night investigation result that says Nightfall is scum.

Wrong, and that's Nightfall's biggest (ok... only) point in his favor.

Also, if that is the only point in my favour, it is because their theory of Twomz=copt is the only point, even as flawed as it is, that they truely have to go against me with.

This is true.

[Vyolynce]

based of the information we have, it's better to get more info from YOU than from Twomz at this point.

That's really the only part of your argument (which was very good and much more useful than "learn to read", btw) I'm having trouble following. Taking a neutral perspective on something Nightfall hit upon during his rant, let's look at the possibilities of what Twomz's targeted ability could be, taking into consideration the only information that Noober gave us -- his questioning of the lack of two kills if there are two killing groups:

1) Tracker. He saw Noober go to someone's house, and then nothing happened to that person. There are tons of pro-town roles that could generate that result in addition to scum roles.

2) Watcher. He was keeping an eye on someone other than Der Hammer, and saw Noober go there with no visible result. See above.

3) Doc. No real connection to Noober under most normal circumstances. All Twomz would know is that his target didn't die that night.

4) Role-cop. Perhaps investigated Noober and found a weapon, or something else incriminating. Probably the most potentially-damning evidence, but still not a slam-dunk.

5) Roleblocker. Blocked Noober, and we only had one kill last night with reasonable evidence that there are two mafia groups. Also not air-tight, but better than options 1-3.


That's all I can think of as far as common roles go. Now, clearly it's not a good idea for Twomz (and/or his partner) to go into further specifics, but I don't really see what a Nightfall claim will do for us other than potentially exposing

another

power role to what many still believe are

two

killing groups.

If I absolutely had to choose between Nightfall and Twomz, I'd be more inclined to vote against Twomz at this stage. I still say his claim came way too early -- and way too conveniently, as he managed to deflect a decently-sized wagon (up to 6 at the point of claim, IIRC) off

himself

and onto Noober/Nightfall. For the record, GJ was up to 6 on that first wagon and nobody was expecting him to claim (although that may have more to do with the nature of that wagon).

His initial vote on GJ also seems to question how certain he was of any night information he may have received about Noober/Nightfall, and he only moved his vote to the person he claims to have information against after MM first did so.

In fact, the only reason I'm

not

still voting Twomz is so I can hedge my bets; if he truly is a mason, then he can at least inform his buddy about the information he has tonight for future use.

[Vyolynce]

Vyolynce, protection of Nightfall noticed.

I should hope so, since I'm the only other active player who thinks Twomz's case doesn't have a leg to stand on. That sort of stands out.

[Vyolynce]

We can ask for clarification and identity of Twomz mason buddy to clear his role better.

You did

not

just ask for Twomz's alleged mason parnter to out himself on Day One did you? In addition to the two roles we have claimed already?

Roleclaims are the best way to get information.

Yes, if you're scum. If you're a townie then you still have to figure out who's lying.

unvote, vote: Twito

[Vyolynce]

Oh, if Nightfall turns out to be scum I fully expect to be run up the flagpole tomorrow. But I'd rather be condemned for defending someone against poor evidence than condemn someone

based on

poor evidence.

[Vyolynce]

This is hardly my first non-newbie dance here (it's my 7th, with #s 5 and 6 running simultaneously; my 8th if you count Mordor Mafia where I was NKd before posting even began), but I've yet to be lynched in any of my games. If this is the first one where this happens, then so be it.

But I'm hardly the only one not voting for Nightfall. If this is such a slam-dunk, then why is he still 2 away?

[Vyolynce]

Why is it that my Doc/Vig claim sounds too good to be true when, but you see no harm or dificulty in believing that Twomz is a mason/I'm guessing tracker like hybrid?

It is the little things like this that have confused me so much this game.

While I agree, I don't think that's quite the case people are making against your claim. I believe their argument is that it is an incredibly convenient claim, not that it's outright unbelievable. And they have a valid point there, but even so, I hardly think that's an excuse to lynch

a claimed doc/vig

.

Unless we're all going to be doing the mafia's(') work for them.

[Vyolynce]

Okay, I'll do a re-read tomorrow and share my thoughts.

Until then,

unvote, random vote: Glork

.

o_O

Did... did you just drop a random vote without reading any of the 13 pages of thread?

[Vyolynce]

I'm not making a big deal out of it, since it hit someone with only one other vote, but it still took me aback.

[Vyolynce]

Right now it appears as if Glork and Vyolence are the top two contenders for the scummy by association award.

That sounds pretty confident for someone without 100% proof of scum.

[Vyolynce]

Current counts as I see them:

Nightfall (8): MM, Twomz, BJ, MoS, Bacde, Twito, CES, StD
MoS (2): GJ, Coron
TMH (2): MBL, Fritzler (assuming this is what he meant in his second-to-last post)
Twomz (1): Max
Armlx (1): Nightfall
Twito (1): Vyolynce
CES (1): TMH

Not voting: Viper, Armlx, Glork

Prod/Replace requests: XGreyJoyX (last post 5/10), Coron (last post 4/28), Max (last post 5/8), Fritzler (last post 5/10), armlx (last post 5/10)

Additionally, MBL and our new mod BMQ haven't posted since 5/11. Nightfall's claim came on 5/10, and I would like to hear everyone's opinion on it, which means those five people have yet to weigh in (minus arlmx, who unvoted as his last post). (In?)Conveniently, they are also all voting for someone else, including Max being the last hanger-on of the Twomz wagon from before Twomz's claim and accusation of Nightfall/Noober.

[Vyolynce]

fos everyone not voting for the fake doc

FOS: Everyone voting

for

the claimed doc.

When did voting for a claimed doc on Day One suddenly become the correct play, convenient claim or no?

If he's really a doc, then he's got a giant bulls-eye on him tonight anyway, and I'd rather not do the scums' job for them by wasting the town's lynch on him. If he's

not

really a doc, then we have to consider the possibility that there are two scum groups out there (or else why a cop dedicated to finding godfathers?), and whichever one he's not a part of could still want him dead, which would make a cross-kill in the town's favor. And even if there is only one killing group and he's lying about being (partially) doc, then letting him go for one extra night won't really be making that much of an impact on the town; it's not like he would be the only member of his group that could kill tonight.

There could very well be much better reasons to lynch him later on, but

not today

.

[Vyolynce]

EBWOP:

When did voting for a claimed doc on Day One suddenly become the correct play, convenient claim or no?

Unles you yourself are a doc and believe that you're the only one. But I somehow doubt that applies to all seven of the NF voters who aren't Twomz.

[Vyolynce]

Still, that's only one person (and BJ at that). What are the excuses of the other half-dozen?

[Vyolynce]

No, I would expect him to come up with a credible claim, possibly one that redirects the town's attention towards somebody else -- like you did. Now, I'm not saying that I don't believe your claim; it's just that I believe his, too. You could argue that his claim is too easy to believe and thus must be fake, but that's just WIFOM.

[Vyolynce]

What do you do when a claimed doc lives? auto lynch him then?

For me, that would probably depend on the rest of the deaths (if any) that night. For instance, what do you do when a claimed doc lives

and no one else dies that night

, especially this early in the game with so many potential targets?

If no one comes forth to counter the doc claim, either with a doc claim of their own (risky...) or with a more solid investigation result than the one Twomz has put forth, then I'm content with having a supposed-doc run wild and free, especially with 15-18 other people to worry about. I don't support auto-lynching of anyone outside of a claim/counterclaim situation, which is not what we have here.

I see your logic, but I don't agree with it.

[Vyolynce]

Good job ignoring my post there, Vyotomorrow'slynch.

Which one/ The one where you made a guess as to the exact numbers and variety of scum we have to deal with, citing "expected for a 20-person game" even though we already have a mason/x role out there that by its nature defies expectations, and possibly another doc/vig hybrid role on top of that? The one where you hypothesized that the

only

death last night was the result of an SK and not any larger scum group? The one where you stated that there's no benefit to letting a claimed doc/vig live?

The one that could make you look

incredibly

well-informed about the scum in this game?

Huh. I guess I did sort of gloss over it. Thanks for calling it to my attention.

unvote, vote CES

Also, I know my neck's on the line tomorrow if two more people finally decide that Nightfall is worth lynching and he in fact turns out to be scum. And I'm also fairly certain that if he turns up town, especially a doc/vig as he claimed, then Twomz is probably the default lynch.

And I really don't like either option, because our situation right now does not warrant such a 50/50 outcome. But I made my decision -- not necessarily to defend Nightfall (although I'll admit that's how it appears), but to point out that many of you are relying on sketchy information from a questionable source to wagon him. That's not how I'd like to play this game, but I can't speak for everyone else. If I have to be lynched for my principles, then fine -- I'll gladly trade myself for scum if that's the case; are you willing to trade yourself for a doc/vig?

[Vyolynce]

Oh sorry for not posting I have been reading every

t

hing I have been d

o

ing lots of revising. Oh Nightfall is acting

w

ierd slightly a

n

d I think he is maf

i

a.

E

nd this post now

Prod/Replace requests: XGreyJoyX (last post 5/10), Coron (last post 4/28 ), Max (last post 5/8 ), Fritzler (last post 5/10), armlx (last post 5/10)

O.K if you use US date format please state at the begining whether it is english or american as not all members are american thankyou

Do you think that Coron's last post was on the 4th day of the 28th month and those others posted on August or October 5th? o_O

[Vyolynce]

Coz you also have to claim their role. Not just whether they are innocent or not.

Since when? I think you're confusing "role cop" with "alignment cop". AFAIK, the latter is the industry-standard, so to speak.

[Vyolynce]

"I am a townie who doesn't have a special role and If I did I wouldn't tell you"

You're not being helpful.

[Vyolynce]

Anyone have a hammer? You all seem to want it badly enough.

[Vyolynce]

That

would

be cute.

[Vyolynce]

I'll

vote: Vyolynce

for now because of his defence of Nightfall yesterday. But,

i'm nowhere near as convinced of him being mafia.

That makes me think you targetted Vyolynce last night. I'm not actually so sure about that, but I think it's pretty likely.

I wouldn't suspect that Twomz investigated me at all. It could merely be a matter of him not believing that a scum would so brazenly defend a buddy like I did -- even though I still maintain that I wasn't so much defending NF as I was attacking Twomz's shoddy case against him, but that's just semantics. Anyone wanting to vote me is perfectly justified in doing so, although it would be a shame to break the roll we're on now.

Going to skim over the whole thread and compare with our new information.

[Vyolynce]

Wow, I forgot how much total crap filled up the majority of this thread. I wouldn't recommend a re-read. >_<

Anyway, I was able to glean some information that I think I can use, but it isn't much.

My

bottom

suspects are MM, Twomz, and MBL. The first two did indeed combine to incriminate Noober/Nightfall, no matter what I personally thought of the wagon. As for MBL, I was struck by something he did early on that looks promising in the light of the deaths last night.

As for my

top

suspects... I dunno; my top suspect was CES at the end of yesterday, but he's already done for. There are several who may qualify as lurkers that are getting in the way of a decent interpretation, but I'll give them some time to realize that day has dawned before hunting them down. I think Max my need reminding that he's even

in

this game, however, as his sig and his "Mafia Predictions" thread completely fail to mention it.

If I had to name names, I'd go with XGreyJoyX (Bacde defended him a couple of times, then GJ himself all but vanished), themanhimself (his current vote against Twomz is baffling, and he has contributed almost nothing), and to a lesser extent Twito (suggestions that an SK is part of a larger scum group, blocking a GF may block the kill made by a goon, and that the default cop function is role-determination instead of guilt/innocence are all strange to me).

Of those three, I'd be most comfortable with GJ.

vote: XGreyJoyX

, his third.

[Vyolynce]

blocking a GF may block the kill made by a goon

Blocking GF blocks the kill if kill is made by GF. Or that's what I'm used to.

What you originally said was this:

Also Godfather normally sends in mafias nightkill and if roleblocked blocks him the kill can be prevented.

Which to me looks like "blocking GF = blocking any mafia kill".

But like I said: to a lesser extent.

[Vyolynce]

Tempted to unvote GJ just on the basis that the wagon against him filled up in record time, but since there probably aren't too many scum votes left, I think it's safe for now.

[Vyolynce]

vote: xGreyJoyx

I see no reason to go back to my previous suspicions.

this was supposed to have a "not" after "reason", but someone seems to have deleted that post.

No, it's still there.

[Vyolynce]

That was suppose to be a pic of MC Hammer saying "STOP!!! Hammer Time!" but it didn't show

You forgot the .jpg at the end of the URL. Preview is your friend.

[Vyolynce]

Oh! Before we lynch... I followed Vyolynce and he didn't do anything (could still be a goon that didn't attack though).

So you're admitting full tracker (mason) now?

And I'll just ignore the fact that you called me BJ. See if I help you again, though.

[Vyolynce]

o_O

Wow, that was an... interesting day.

[Vyolynce]

Unless DH was our only cop?

Depending on how GJ turns up, a look at today's wagon might prove useful (and yes, I know I was on it). I thought that it moved especially quick, considering how long it took to reach a consensus yesterday.

[Vyolynce]

Longest. Twilight. Ever.

Although it could be a case of BMQ not counting the last vote since it didn't say "vote".

[Vyolynce]

And it hasn't really been that long...

I know, but it a full 24 hours of Twilight seems like a lot.

And Twito? CA's not our mod any more.

[Vyolynce]

With my last breath, I curse ZOIDBERG!

Always wanted to use that...