NY135: Sexy Sedilla Semi-Open - Town Wins

[Yosarian2]

Hi everyone.

[Yosarian2]

Ok. I’m tired, a little bit sick, and in caffeine withdraw, but I’m trying to at least skim the thread. If I don’t sound coherent, I apologize in advance.

- I really wanted to think that Hiraki was scum after some stuff of his I didn’t like in the random voting, but his behavior around the Parabollocks wagon feels town. I’m having trouble justifying why, tbh, but…first, he joined the wagon, then he unvoted and said that the wagon was probably pushed by scum because it was moving too fast. The whole thing gives me a town vibe on Hiraki.

- Ythan seems townish early on.

Parabollocks play so far is terrible.

Ethos might be town. Not really sure why Ythan is attacking him so hardcore over the comment that Oversoul’s play looks town; the comment made sense to me.

As this goes on, Ethos looks more town, and I get more confused by Ythan’s play. Ythan gets so upset by Ethos calling it a “logic disagreemenent”, but that’s what it looks like from where I’m sitting. Also a little wierded out by Ythan apparently mason-fishing.

You're using selective and ridiculous absolutes. And that's one part of why I'm calling you scum.

Ythan, can you explain why that’s a scumtell?

(This is irrelevant, but I’m just going to mention that this is right about the point where I took a break from my readthrough because my goddamned water heater just started leaking hot water all over my utility room floor. Argggh.)

-Spyrex is also weird

- SKEET

Your slot has been dodging a lot of posts in favor of playing the victim.

This is a fair point against Ethos, Ethos is doing a little more ATE then I really like to see. Still, I think the Ythan/Ethos thing could very well be town v town here.

This whole Ethos vs. Ythan/SpyreX... thing reads like three townies beating the shit out of each other. Guys, there are far squishier, scummier targets.

Yes, thank you.

Parabollocks then calls SpyreX a “faggot” and self votes. God, I almost want this guy to just die no matter what his alignment is.

…and this is the point when I realize that Parabollocks is the guy I just replaced. Greeeaaattt. Well, at least I don't have to play with that guy.

Ok, so, yeah. Caught up, more or less. Going to try to do some ISO's and try to see if I can get a better idea for who the scum are next; I have a few town reads from my skim through, but don't have any strong scum reads yet. For now, I'm going to

unvote

in case that horrible self vote from that idiot still counts.

[Yosarian2]

Is this a serious question? Cherrypicking ridiculous baseis for reads.

I don't think his comment about oversoul was a ridiculous basis for a read at all. If someone makes a big deal about how they started a wagon, it probably means that they want to take credit for it and think it's a good wagon. That's really just common sense, Ythan, and it's kind of bizzare the way you've spun it up into a huge case.

Well part of the way through my read it looked like the Ethos wagon might be gaining ground on his buddy's but I guess Para really picked up the slack.

unvote vote Yosarian2

Ok, so why are you voting me? The guy I replaced was an idiot, but he wasn't scum.

[Yosarian2]

- I really wanted to think that Hiraki was scum after some stuff of his I didn’t like in the random voting, but his behavior around the Parabollocks wagon feels town. I’m having trouble justifying why, tbh, but…first, he joined the wagon, then he unvoted and said that the wagon was probably pushed by scum because it was moving too fast. The whole thing gives me a town vibe on Hiraki.

How is that town. He put him at L-2, waited for Swag to move it to L-1 and then unvoted and said "woh too fast for me!!" thats not town.

I don't really like his play there, but it doesn't make any sense to me as a scum play at all.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, next step to finding scum is to ISO everyone in the game and try to mark down some thoughts about them, see who jumps out at me. Normal disclaimer, all this stuff may change since the game just started, blah blah blah.

Town-ish

Îdher-Hydra seems to have pro-town motives. Lines like this:

SpyreX, just because parabollocks called you a faggot doesn't make him scum.

Just feel town-ish to me.

Ethos-already explained this

Hiraki- already explained this

Knight of Cydonia-Gut, mostly. Most of his play so far makes sense

Chair: No real problem with their play so far. Suspect list in ISO post #6 looks reasonable, and the description of the thoughts of both hydra heads makes sense to me. Willingness to unvote to hear from para’s replacement seems town-ish.

Null:

Oversoul: No problems with his play so far. Want to hear more from him. His ISO post #6 makes some sense to me.

Ythan: Really don’t know what to think about him right now. He seemed pro-town earlier in the game, but I really don’t at all get his long war with Ethos. Also don’t get the self proclaimed mason fishing. Ythan’s really made a lot of strange plays this game.

kanyeknowsbest - ? I have no read at all on this guy yet.
.
SpyreX-some of his play makes sense, but there’s some weirdness. Spyrex, can you explain why you voted for Ethos?

T-Bone: Has done very little scumhunting Has really not said much yet. I keep forgetting this game is only 3 days long so far, considering all the pages I just had to read, but I’d like to hear more from this guy about who he finds suspicious.

Lurker or V/LA or just hasn’t said enough

The Mask: getting replaced out. Did nothing while he was here. One of the scummier lurkers.

Dramonic: Hasn’t really done anything. Is currently V/LA at goofbash

Untrod Tripod: Has really only made 1 content post so far this game, where he calls
Ythan town and calls Ethos scum. Don’t get a bad vibe from that post, but we need to hear more from this guy.

kunkstar7: Need to hear more from this guy. Is currently voting Mask, but hasn’t commented on most of the stuff going on this game.

Suspicious:

Quilford:
This feels like a false dilemma. (For the newer players here, a "false dillema" is when a person says "either person A is scum, or person B is scum" when there's no reason for that assumption. It's a common scum tactic, since if scum like to keep two townies at each other's throats, and since if the town buys it, they first mislynch one and then when that guy flips town they to mislynch the other one the "one or the other has to be scum" theory.)

I would be surprised if neither Ythan nor Ethos were scum at this point

And the justification for it makes no sense:

Quilford: So are you saying one of them is scum? Which one, and why?

-Amrun

They're doing an excellent job at eliciting emotional responses from each other and I see no reason for town players to do that

You don’t see two town players arguing in an emotional way and really going at each other? That happens in pretty much every mafia game I have ever seen, ever.


Swag: Has done noting all game except this vote for Para:

Para, you've made a lot of unbiased posts, and not very smart moves. You're trying to cover yourself up too hard. Obvious scum is obvious. VOTE: Parabollocks

Para did have a lot of “not very smart moves”, but what, exactally, makes you think that he’s scum rather then just an idiot? What does “a lot of unbiased posts” even mean? What makes his play “obvscum”?

I dislike that Swag has done no scumhunting all game, and then jumps on a bad lynchbait wagon while giving really bad reasons.

I'm going to

Vote:Quilford

. Both Quilford and Swag look suspicious, and I'd be willing to vote either one of them at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

Is this a serious question? Cherrypicking ridiculous baseis for reads.

I don't think his comment about oversoul was a ridiculous basis for a read at all. If someone makes a big deal about how they started a wagon, it probably means that they want to take credit for it and think it's a good wagon. That's really just common sense, Ythan, and it's kind of bizzare the way you've spun it up into a huge case.

Well part of the way through my read it looked like the Ethos wagon might be gaining ground on his buddy's but I guess Para really picked up the slack.

unvote vote Yosarian2

Ok, so why are you voting me? The guy I replaced was an idiot, but he wasn't scum.

Go figure, you're attacking my attack on you. And calling your predecessor an idiot isn't going to accomplish anything. We all know he was an idiot. You're still scum.

No, I'm not "attacking your attack on me". And no, I'm not scum. I feel silly saying that, but if the only argument you have is "I'm voting Yos because he's scum", then all I can do is tell you you're wrong.

Now, if you actually want to say what it is that Para did that you think is more likely to come from scum then from dumbass town, then feel free to say so.

[Yosarian2]

Now, if you actually want to say what it is that Para did that you think is more likely to come from scum then from dumbass town, then feel free to say so.

If you were being sincere I expect you would read my iso.

I did. I read everyone's ISO's. You voted Para because you didn't like that he voted Oversoul. You also voted Ethos because you didn't like that they defended Oversoul. The funny thing is, it was both for the same post; Para thought that post was a scum tell, Ethos thought that post was a town tell, and you attacked both of them for it, with a degree of focus that seems completely out of proportion to the issue.

[Yosarian2]

Did you not read further than that?

Is there a reason you're making me play guessing games, and are so reluctant to actually explain the reason for your vote?

If you have an actual case on me, make it. If you don't, go find scum.

Looking at Para's play, he made a vote on Overlord for reasons that don't make a lot of sense, he self voted, he made bad posts, he acted like an asshole. All of those things are explained by the fact he's a total VI, none of it has any obvious scum motivation.

[Yosarian2]

Yes, Ythan, I'm replacing into a "horrible slot". The thing is, it's a horrible town slot.

Really running out of patience with you here. You haven't justified your terribly overblown attacks on Ethos, you haven't justified your attacks on me, you refuse to explain yourself at all, and your only thought seems to be "Yos and Ethos are scum because I say they are scum and because Yos is defending Ethos."

Again, your whole case against Ethos was that he thought that one post of Overlord's was a town tell, and your whole case against Para was that he thought that same post of Overlords was a scum tell. That's it. If anything, I would tend to agree with Ethos here, but either way, that's a really weak thing to base all the scumhunting you've done all game on.

In fact, weren't you the one who said that this kind of behavior is a scumtell?

You picked one specific player to apply one very specific opinion to to the exclusion of all the intelligent things you could have contributed.

[Yosarian2]

Yos:

IF that is the case, then what do you make of Ethos very clearly giving a pat on the back in a "you're not a VI" way?

Still not sure what you mean, Spyrex. What post of Ethos are you talking about?

[Yosarian2]

And yes, Yos, that is the exact post I'm talking about.

(shrug) In that case, I don't know. "Don't leave this site, you're a good player" most likely had nothing to do with this game at all and more to do with some previous experience they had, although it could be Ethos trying to buddy with the guy I replaced. I don't really see why he hypo-scum-Ethos would want to buddy with Para, though, considering how much fire Para was talking at the time.

[Yosarian2]

If you're looking at your slot as a VI (and like I said it would take stones to call yourself out as scum) and Ethos is treating it as anything but can't you see the disconnect.

Para was obviously playing like a VI in this game. I don't think anyone's going to argue with that.

If there was another game where he wasn't, I'd be interested to hear from Ethos what game it was.

Anyway, none of that really changes anything. If you're saying that Ethos-scum was trying to buddy up to Para-town, then why would he do that to someone who under so much attack? And if that's not what you're saying, then what are you suggesting?

[Yosarian2]

You going to explain any of that, empking? You are replacing my top suspect, and a random list that seems designed to buddy up to Ythan and Spyrex with no explinations for anything dosn't make me feel any better.

[Yosarian2]

I don't see what about my attack you consider overblown. If you could actually pick something out then you wouldn't be having this problem.

It started with you arguing with Ethos about the overlord town tell. Neither of you seemed especially scummy in that debate; it just looked like two people disagreeing about if something was a town tell or if it was explainable away by Overlord's newbie status. (This is your ISO posts 21-30 or so). Then, after you spent 9 posts doing nothing but basically a theory debate with him, you called him scum in your ISO post 31 with no explanation, and then in your next few posts called him "dumb", "completely fucking daft", and you said you were "attacking him for the ridiculous way he's covering for Oversoul", which is just absurdly overblown. You then kept just combining insults with incredibly vauge attacks, and then suddenly made the absurd (and, to use your own termanology, "overly absolute") statement that "nothing but being a mason with oversoul could possibly explain your play." It's kind of crazy that you attacked him for making "overly absolute" comments, and then say something so absurd as to imply that no one ever gets a town read on anyone unless they're masons together. Then you started making vague comments about "the reason you're being attacked", without ever condescending to tell him what that reason was, and then went back to insulting him.

Nowhere did you make any kind of actual case on anyone being scum. You've just posted snarky one liners that had nothing to do with anything.

If I could "actually pick something out"? I'm talking about something like 40 posts here where you've made a huge deal about nothing, taken a stupid theory disagreement and turned it into a huge overblown case with no justification or explanation other then vague silly things like "you're talking in absolutes". Basically, all your play this game is based on an absurdly overblown case.

If you could actually explain WHY you think Ethos is scum, or, hell, why you think Para was scum, then perhaps we could get somewhere.

[Yosarian2]

Don't forget - it also had that morsel of "this is happening because you're right this game".

If you're looking at your slot as a VI (and like I said it would take stones to call yourself out as scum) and Ethos is treating it as anything but can't you see the disconnect.

I'm scum.

Is Ethos's defense of Yos/Para the only reason you think he is scum, Emp?

...

Um.

Did you just claim scum, Overlord?

[Yosarian2]

You could still sheep on me, empking. Of course, I'm voting for you.

[Yosarian2]

Yes...

Do you think I think you are a bookie?

Heh. If you're saying what I think you're saying, the "Ythan is trying to force through one specific mislynch because he is a mafia bookie" theory you seem to be going for is cute, but it doesn't actually work, since according to the roles on page 1, mafia bookie doesn't get to make a bet until a night phase happens, and it hasn't yet, so that's not actually possible.

[Yosarian2]

On another note, I do want to hear Ethos's reply to SpyreX's last post. Ethos, were you making stuff up to try to push a case here?

[Yosarian2]

Standard procedure when someone claims mason is to wait and not make the partners claim until the day before lynch or lose. Scum really can't fake a mason claim for long, especially a 3 man mason group, and if we just leave it alone the scum probably have to kill the mason. The whole point of masons is that they are confirmed innocents, and the longer in the game you can keep your confirmed innocents hidden, the more it helps the town.

That being said, this is kind of a weird situation. Looking back at the Ethos/Ythan debate, Ethos never actually denied being a mason, he just denied being a mason with me. In fact, his response was "I'm not going to soft-claim just because you asked me to", which is pretty ambiguous. I donno though, while you almost never see a scum fakeclaim mason, I could see Ethos-scum do it after Ythan made such a big deal about it earlier. I tend to trust this mason claim a little less then I usually do.

Meh. We could wait. If Ethos is lying, we'll know soon enough. There's no way there's 3 masons and a cop in the same game, so if there is a cop in this game, he or she already knows Ethos is lying. If there is a different mason group in this game, they know Ethos is lying. And I don't think this game is balanceable without the town having either a cop or a mason group. So if he's scum, I think we're certain to catch him eventually, and if he's he's town, we don't want him to claim mason partners today.

[Yosarian2]

Overlord, why did you just claim VT? It's really anti-town to do that. What are you doing?

[Yosarian2]

Just wondering, Yos, but why is claiming VT generally anti-town? I believe it to be anti-town because it is the most common role that scum fakeclaims. However, I am interested in your opinion.

It's anti-town because, each time someone who's actually vanilla town claims vanilla town, it makes it easier for scum to figure out who the power roles are and kill them.

[Yosarian2]

That was all so unnecessary. Even if we did decide we wanted a partner to claim, just one partner would have been fine.

Anyway, for formailities sake, we do need the two masons partners to confirm that they are masons.

By the way, Ethos actually being a mason gives Ythan huge scum points for the earlier mason fishing.

[Yosarian2]

By the way, Ethos actually being a mason gives Ythan huge scum points for the earlier mason fishing.

Why? Why does Ethos being a mason make a difference?

Because that means that there is a high chance Ethos dropped some kind of actual mason tell early, and that Ythan saw it and responded by increasing pressure on him and trying to get him to claim. If Ythan was town and saw a mason tell, the pro-town thing to do would be to drop the whole subject and look at someone else. Whole thing really makes me wonder if Ythan is scum who wanted to out the masons early.

[Yosarian2]

Because that means that there is a high chance Ethos dropped some kind of actual mason tell early, and that Ythan saw it and responded by increasing pressure on him and trying to get him to claim. If Ythan was town and saw a mason tell, the pro-town thing to do would be to drop the whole subject and look at someone else. Whole thing really makes me wonder if Ythan is scum who wanted to out the masons early.

Ahem...#208-212.

Yes, that was where the blatant and frankly inexcusable masonfishing started.

[Yosarian2]

This was where the masonfishing started.

Wait. Oversoul/Ethos. In a theoretical situation in which one of you would die but it would clear the other one, which would go first?

Really a nonsense question, no matter how you look at it, but one designed to see if Ethos was a mason with Oversoul.

And then, when Ethos refused to rise to the bait and basically just laughed at him, Ythan declared:

It's a scum qt, he claimed not-mason.

He really wanted to get a mason claim out of Ethos one way or another, and I don't get why.

[Yosarian2]

We can still lynch Yos, right?

unvote vote Yos

Last I checked, the only excuse you gave for voting me was some bullshit logic about me being scum with Ethos, and that you didn't like that I was defending him.

Actually, I've asked you 4 or 5 times now to explain either your attack on Ethos or your attack on me, and so far you've refused. Your Ethos attack was always shitty, and you kept putting off explaining why you were voting for him in the first place, basically pretending you'd already explained it (hint: you haven't.) You never explained your mason fishing, you never explained why you blew the Ethos wagon so far out of proportion when it was always just based on a disagreement on the reading of one town tell he got from one post. You never explained your read on me, either.

You know what, screw this. You're not a VI, you have no excuse for your actions.

unvote:empking

vote:Ythan

, at least until you start making some bloody sense.

So, now that I'm voting you, are you going to stop blowing me off and start answering some questions, or do we have to put you at lynch -1 before you'll start doing that?

[Yosarian2]

By the way, Ethos actually being a mason gives Ythan huge scum points for the earlier mason fishing.

Because you keep ignoring why I did it because you have to at this point.

The only excuse you gave was the horrible "Either Ethos is scum, or he's masons with Para" false dilemma. Which is just wrong, in so many ways. Not only is it wrong, but even if that was true, you went about it totally ass-backwards. If you had actually thought that, say, there was a 65% Ethos was scum and a 35% chance Ethos was a mason (just to pull numbers out of thin air), then the right thing to do would be to bandwagon Ethos to a claim, and then see if he claims mason or not. Not demand that he claim mason when he was nowhere near a lynch. That's just anti-town all around.

If Ythan was town and saw a mason tell, the pro-town thing to do would be to drop the whole subject and look at someone else.

Then it's scummy if I saw a mason tell. Other than blindly defending a scummy player. Which is a team tell. Which is usually a scum tell.

Getting a town read on another player for a logical reason is not a scum tell. Not at all. Not even a little bit. That's the main way that a lot of people scumhunt is by looking for town tells.

Is this your excuse for all your bad behavior so far this game, that you really think defending someone is a scum tell?

[Yosarian2]

So, now that I'm voting you, are you going to stop blowing me off and start answering some questions, or do we have to put you at lynch -1 before you'll start doing that?

I'm blowing you off because you're bullshitting and have been since your first post. But I understand and am not forming a judgment of you as a player based on this game because you replaced into a terrible slot. <3

So, what, I was "bullshitting" because I correctly read Ethos as town while you were tunneling on him for a idiotic reason, while pretending you had more of a case then you did but refusing to ever explain what it was?

Let me say this one more time. I am town, and I am voting you, because you are acting like either scum or like a tunneling idiot, and I don't think you are an idiot, so that probably makes you scum at this point.

You have consistently refused to explain your reads on either Ethos or on me. That's just scummy as fuck; if you were town, and you actually thought I was scum, you'd be glad to explain why, to try to convince other people, to make your point, to run your logic past the town and see if there was anything wrong with it.

Pretending that T-Bone is just OMGUSing you rather then responding to his points isn't winning you any town points either.

You're not going to get out of being lynched today by just sticking your head in the sand and refusing to say anything, Ythan. It doesn't work like that.

[Yosarian2]

UT: Seriously? You're voting me becuase Para was a VI?

Explain to me what Para did, at any point in the game, that actually seemed to have any kind of scum motivation behind it. Anything.

[Yosarian2]

So, what, I was "bullshitting" because I correctly read Ethos as town

One of my favorite scum plays is "correctly reading" a scummy town player and then pulling out the I-told-you-so really hard to lynch the person pushing the lynch after the flip. This argument isn't winning you any town points, only town pwnts. OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Except I was doing everything I could to prevent the Ethos lynch, even when the top two wagons (the only two wagons, really) were Ethos and me, and I was directly putting myself at risk by trying to get people off the Ethos lynch.

[Yosarian2]

Also, the point I was making was that the only case Ythan was even trying to make against me was the lame "Yos is scum trying to protect his buddy" case. This was the only case he was willing to make against me, no matter how many times I asked him:

No see it's because Yos came into an unfortunate player slot and is now continuing his predecessor's attempts to take the heat off of his scumbuddy through what meager means he has left given his own precarious position. It is sad to see Yos only enter this game in an already doomed slot.

And now he's been proven wrong, and he's still just going to keep voting me. It's gone beyond the point when I can write off Ythan's behavior as stupid town; he's scum, he's trying to get a mislynch, and he doesn't care that his pet theory has already been proven wrong.

[Yosarian2]

UT: Seriously? You're voting me becuase Para was a VI?

We should probably go for someone who's scummy AND has gotten a lot of attention. You know, kind of like Parabollocks.

Blatant misrep? What what?

How about you actually explain how Para was scummy, how you think his actions make more sense coming from a scum instead of a VI town, instead of just, I donno, doing whatever it is you're doing.

Anyone puts themself at risk by trying to prevent a lynch. This is not a towntell. As I recall, a number of people (myself included) said "well let's let Yos talk for a bit now" when you replaced in. You weren't really in danger of being lynched over Ethos.

I was at, what, lynch -2 when I replaced in? Something like that? I don't know about you, but I certanly thought I was in danger.

You're a good enough player to know that you could argue your way out of the you vs. Ethos situation. He was acting crazy scummy.

Ethos was never acting scummy. The whole case against Ethos was always crap. It was just Ythan tearing him apart with a bunch of witty one-liners that didn't actually have any real substance or meaning to them.

Your defense is that you're not mafia because you were defending the seemingly-inevitable lynch of someone you would have known to not be mafia (giving you the opportunity to turn a wagon onto the person leading that wagon)? Seriously?

You know, I don't think I need a defense until someone actually tries to make a case against me.

Ethos was not going to get lynched today, even if he didn't claim mason; I was not going to let that happen, and neither were a number of other reasonable people. When we got close to deadline and the Ethos lynch didn't happen, and I was the only wagon left, what do you think was going to happen? Sheesh.

In any case, I always go with town reads and defend people who seem townish against bad wagons. It's a pro-town thing to do, and you acting like me correctly defending town is somehow scummy is just absurd.

[Yosarian2]

Never said they were masons or scum.

One of the two scummiest players defending the other is a scum tell.

Ethos was never "one of the scummiest players" by any stretch of the imagination. He made a rational argument about Overlord being town, and you jumped all over him for it for no good reason, and almost managed to get him mislynched over it. Para did some weird moves, but he wasn't scum either.

You have this whole crazy circular argument going here. Para and Ethos were scummy. Why were they scummy? because they were defending each other. Why is it scummy that they were defending each other? Because they were scummy.

Anyway, your whole house of bullshit collapsed now that Ethos is confirmed town, so why are you still voting me?

[Yosarian2]

Pretty much just qq and pay attention to the slot next time you offer to replace into a game next time.

Heh. Pisses you off when you almost manage to get some newb town mislynched and then a competent player replaces into that slot, huh?

[Yosarian2]

Meh, I'll go back to the Empking wagon while I wait for Ythan's replacement.

unvote:Ythan

Vote:Empking

[Yosarian2]

Going to be away for the weekend. Will be back in a few days.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I'm back. Catching up now:

Empking claims one shot vig.

I'll kill Hikari then.

I'd really be surprised if Hikari is scum this game, he looks pretty townish to me. I'd really suggest you kill someone else.

Well, if the deadline is in less then 20 hours, and Empking has claimed a confirmable power role, i'll vote UT.

unvote

Vote:Untrod Tripod

Bad Ethos vote, bad voting history in general, demand that all 3 masons claim so "the scum has to spend their kills on them instead of other possible power roles ". He's fairly likely to be scum, and I don't really see any other decent wagons happening between now and deadline.

[Yosarian2]

That was a mistake on my part missing that, and I'll have that figured out shortly.

T-bone was null because I didn't know who he was masons with, so I wasn't sure how to take it.

usually, when someone claims mason, especially with partners and especially early in the game, you can pretty much just mark them down as confirmed town. Yeah, leave a little "they could be doing a gambit" note by their name in your notes if you really want to, but at this point of day 1 in the game, the chances of a 3 man scum group fakeclaiming mason together is near zero, and the chances of a three man scum group claiming mason together and getting away with it is much lower then that.

[Yosarian2]

Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

Forgot to send it. If you give me another chance then I can confirm myself tonight.

Empking, you do realize that even if you kill someone night 3, that dosn't confirm you of anything; 1 kill on night 2 and 2 kills night 3 could just as easily mean a mafia bookie.

[Yosarian2]

You know what I mean.

[Yosarian2]

Kanye made a good point about the night ending early.

I don't really see what good it does to say "let's not lynch empking now, let's lynch him tomorrow". That just makes it more likely that a mafia bookie might get a kill off of it.

Besides, from a psychological standpoint, I think empking-scum would be more likely to try to claim vig to get out of trouble (instead of some other fake claim) if he himself was the mafia bookie. Scum love to tell half-truths whenever they can. If he is the mafia bookie, then we want him dead today.

Vote:empking

[Yosarian2]

Ugh. Did a vig just kill the obviously town Hiraki? If so, then great job, you just put us into lynch or lose for no reason.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, if there's 2 mafia left, then if we lynch wrong today, we mafia easily win tonight unless we get very lucky with crosskills. I guess we massclaim, try to lynch a member of the mafia, and then prey for crosskills? That's probably our only shot at this point.

[Yosarian2]

vote: yosarian2

nice slip.

What the hell?

[Yosarian2]

Yos: why are you assuming multiple scum factions (if that's what you're assuming)? Could you clarify 921?

There were 2 kills night 1, and 3 kills last night. Huh. I was assuming SK, mafia, vig, but there can't be a SK in this setup, so it's got to be mafia, mafia bookie, vig.

Either way, assuming 2 mafia, if we lynch wrong today we lose.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, if there's 2 mafia left, then if we lynch wrong today,

we mafia

easily win tonight unless we get very lucky with crosskills. I guess we massclaim, try to lynch a member of the mafia, and then prey for crosskills? That's probably our only shot at this point.

he forgot to delete his we. also he seems to know that we are lylo.

You are an idiot.

Yes, I forgot to deleate the we when I changed the sentance from "we lose tongiht" to "the mafia win tonight". The fact that you're acting like that's a scumslip is just terrible.

And of course we're in lynch or lose. Unless we started off with only a 2 man mafia, but with a vig and masons, that dosn't make sense.

[Yosarian2]

2 votes on me within 12 hours of the game starting, in lynch or lose, when there's 2 scum left and it's 4 votes to lynch? Are you guys really that bad at mafia?

[Yosarian2]

...

Yes. Ok, that was really dumb. I have no idea why I thought there were only 6 people left alive in this game.

I think I should go to bed.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, sorry about that yesterday. I was sooo tired after work yesterday, heh. And I was thinking of this as a 13 player mini game and was thinking we'd only have 6 people left after 2 kills followed by 3 kills, so I thought we were in 6 player lynch or lose, and I totally freaked out when people started voting me despite that. Of course we're not actually in lynch or lose, because there's 11 people still alive, and there's no way there's enough scum to make that a possible lynch or lose situation.

That being said, despite my silly posting from yesterday, I really don't get why people are suspicious of me at this point, considering I started the wagon on Quilford day 1 and kept pushing all day after Empking replaced in, and considering that all game I was saying I thought Ethos and Hiraki were town and did everything I could to stop either one of them from being lynched. My reads this game have been really good, and I think I've done more to help the town at this point then anyone else in the game has. I can't believe people are ignoring all that in favor of an absurd "scumslip" argument based on a stupid typo I made while I was half asleep.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, doing a re-read now to find Empking's scum buddies, taking an especally close look at the day 1 empking wagon, since that's really the most informativie thing that's happened all game.

Probably town

kunkstar7: Key 4th vote on the day 1 empking wagon. Need to hear more from this guy, but leaning town.

saporovirus: 5th vote on the day 1 empking wagon, pushed it pretty hard.

Îdher: Pretty clearly town.

Null/Leaning town

SpyreX: Generally positive opinion on this guy. Generally makes sense. Only major point against him is he was on the bad day 1 Ethos wagon.

Oversoul: He just feels like a newbie town to me. Mostly gut.

Mastin2: The tell that I nailed Quilford with was creating a false dilemma between Ythan and Ethos. That probably means that they were both town (despite Ythan being a huge pain in the ass later in day 1). That being said; can you explain why you thought Quilford was town on day 1, Mastin?


Chair: No real problems with their play so far. No strong towntells either, though; I was debating if I should put him in this catagory or the null/scummy catagory.

Null/scumy

:
kanyeknowsbest: His play all around is generally meh.

Knight of Cydonia: Basically ignored the empking wagon day 1, which is a big black mark against him, but otherwise played in a reasonable way on day 1.

His excuse for voting for me today is really terrible, though; did you really think there was a "scum quicktopic post" where the entire scum group completly lost track of how many people were left alive, where they talked about crosskills in a game that clearly only has one scum group, but yet where they somehow knew that Hiraki was going to be vig killed? That makes zero sense, KoC.

Scummy:
MrZepher: Has not really scumhunted or done anything pro-town all game. (Swag looked pretty bad too.) Avoided the EmpKing wagon both day 1 and day 2. It's especally scummy that when the obviously town Îdher defends me, he attacks them for "chainsawing".

Vote:MrZepher

[Yosarian2]

I said POTENTIAL chainsaw, meaning it only means something to me if/when Yos flips scum.

Accusing someone who's clearly town of a "potential chainsaw" is a scum tell. I don't believe that if you were town you'd actually be thinking of Îdher as potential scum at this point. Looks more like you just wanted to try to scare them away from defending me.

I "avoided" the Empking wagon while I was around because it seemed silly to lynch somebody who obviously (at this point) had a bookie on them.

Really? That's not what you said yesterday. All you said was:

That being said, I feel like I can give Emp BoD in not submitting the kill.

I don't know what "BoD" means, but it sounds like you were defending him (IE: accepting his claim that he was a town vig who forgot to send in his kill, trying to convince us that that was a plausable defense.) You never mentioned the bookie thing.

I'm going to have to fight an uphill battle trying to convince all of you I'm town purely because of Swag's terribad play, and I already realize that my continued absence during the game doesn't help at all.

Actually, your play so far is worse then Swag's, all things considered.

Also, I don't feel at that Idher is obv town at all, so it's weird that you say that.

Explain this, please.

[Yosarian2]

For what it's worth, I don't think I'm obvtown either. Pretty blatantly off my game here.

I don't really think Zephyr is the way to go.

-Ether

Meh. Knowing that Empking was scum, I don't really see how anyone can read your hydra's day 1 posts about him and not come away pretty confident that you guys are town.

[Yosarian2]

SpyreX: Generally positive opinion on this guy. Generally makes sense. Only major point against him is he was on the bad day 1 Ethos wagon.

I'm not going to soapbox too much but its not my fault mason in the secret decoder ring means scum every damn time.

I'll never get it.

(shrug) It's not the mason part of it that bothers me; it's that Ythan's case against Ethos always seemed really thin, overblown, and spun up into a huge deal out of basically nothing to me, and I don't really get why you went along with Ythan on it.

Like I said, though, that's the only real problem I have with your play so far.

[Yosarian2]

• #920 Hiraki was so obviously NOT town. I have no idea why you’d say that.

Um, he was town. He's dead, we know his alignment. Also, I was saying he was town all game, it was pretty clear from his posting.

Anyway, it's bizzare that you would do an ISO on me and then not mention all the actual important stuff I did, like how when I replaced in I was at lynch -2, and I defended the other main suspect (Ethos, town), the #3 suspect (Hiraki, town), and instead went after Quilford (scum) who only had one vote on him at a time. You know, the stuff that townies actually look at when they're trying to figure out someone's alignment, like how did they intearact with known scum, how did they react under pressure, did their actions seem to be pro-town or anti-town, ect.

It wouldn't be so bad if you looked at all that and then created a case that I was distancing or something, but it seems like you just skimmed through my posts, ignored everything that actually mattered, picked out a few things you could attack me on, and then called me scum.

The rest of your post is pretty terrible, too. The day 1 scum wagon on Empking that forced him into a bad claim was pushed by Îdher, me, Saporovirus, and kunkstar7, and you just called ALL of us scum, which is just beyond absurd. You didn't even mention the day 1 quilford/ empking wagon in ANY of your ISO analysis. What kind of townie tries to read and analyze the whole game but ignores the sucessfull wagon-to-a-claim made against a scum?

Vote stays.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, it's bizzare that you would do an ISO on me and then not mention all the actual important stuff I did, like how when I replaced in I was at lynch -2, and I defended the other main suspect (Ethos, town), the #3 suspect (Hiraki, town), and instead went after Quilford (scum) who only had one vote on him at a time. You know, the stuff that townies actually look at when they're trying to figure out someone's alignment, like how did they intearact with known scum, how did they react under pressure, did their actions seem to be pro-town or anti-town, ect.

How is your slot being at L-2 supposed to matter to me when I think you're scum? As far as I'm concerned you should have been lynched already.
Defending Ethos could have just as easily been scum defending town to look more town when the person they're defending flips town.
Though I suppose it would look worse had you started defending AFTER Ethos claimed mason. Noted.

Are you really not getting what I'm saying here?

If a scum replaced into a slot and was already at lynch -2, his only real goal would be to survive and get someone who isn't him lynched, so he would probably push a big, competing wagon on a townie to try to stay alive.

There were two big wagons, Ethos and Hiraki, but I thought they were both town, so I defended BOTH of them, and then tried to start a new wagon on Quilford, who I thought was scum even though he only had one vote on him. If I was scum trying to stay alive, that would be an incredibly stupid way to go about doing it. It should be fairly obvious from the way all that turned out that I was town trying to lynch scum, and that I cared more about lynching scum that then about my own survival.

It wouldn't be so bad if you looked at all that and then created a case that I was distancing or something, but it seems like you just skimmed through my posts, ignored everything that actually mattered, picked out a few things you could attack me on, and then called me scum.

Finding scum does matter. As far as I'm concerned I have a good chance at having found scum.

...what?

You don't think that it matters who supported and who opposed a wagon on scum?

The rest of your post is pretty terrible, too. The day 1 scum wagon on Empking that forced him into a bad claim was pushed by Îdher, me, Saporovirus, and kunkstar7, and you just called ALL of us scum, which is just beyond absurd. You didn't even mention the day 1 quilford/ empking wagon in ANY of your ISO analysis. What kind of townie tries to read and analyze the whole game but ignores the sucessfull wagon-to-a-claim made against a scum?

Yeah.... that's a fail on my part. Sorry.

On further analysis:
Kunk- voted Empking only; from what I see he didn't actually push anything. He didn't even post a reason for voting Empking.
Sapo- tried to start a wagon on Empking but didn't even vote until after he claimed. Didn't even originally post a reason with suspecting Empking from what I see.
Idher- Came in asking why Empking wasn't dead yet; didn't say anything until after Emp claimed, and chose to agree with it.
Yos- You only voted Empking as filler until you could attack Ythan's slot again. You originally stated some decent reasoning for your vote on Quilford, then didn't pursue it afterwards.

I see no obvious town tells in this.

Voting for scum IS a town tell, pretty much by definition.

In fact, I'll go farther then that. If there were 2 or 3 distancing scum out of the 5 people voting for empking, he wouldn't have felt the kind of pressure to make him make such a risky claim to try and stay alive. He knew he was in really serious danger of being lynched in order to make a desperate claim like that, which probably means that the day 1 empking wagon was either mostly town or all town. There might have been 1 scum on the wagon, or there might have been none; there certainly were not more then 1 scum on the wagon, I'd be willing to bet on that.

Also, what do you mean I "didn't persue it afterwards", or that my "empking vote was a placeholder vote"? If I think someone's scum, then I think their replacement is scum too, which is why I voted for him. Yes, at one point Ythan was really pissing me off with his stubborn refusal to explain his bad Ethos vote and I voted him, but I went back to my original suspicion on quilford/empking once he replaced out.

I'm really having trouble believing any of this as plausible thought patterns coming from a town. If you're a town, and are scumhunting, the FIRST thing you do is take a close look at any scum wagons in the past, because you get more information from that then from anything else. It seems to me like you're just trying to create BS ways to justify fake suspicions, probably so you can OMGUS and attack people who aren't your scumbuddies.

[Yosarian2]

I'd lean that way too but its soo strange it bothers me intrinsically (like the Idher business).

Ftr, I misread the bookie role as well.

[Yosarian2]

We already knew Empking was scum at that point. We didn't need confirmation of his alignment to update our reads on other players.

I don't think it's quite that clear cut. Hiraki was still arguing pretty strenuously that Empking was town, so clearly not everyone was sure Empking was scum.

[Yosarian2]

I'm still not feeling this Sapo lynch. She needs to post more, but she's more likely town at this point.

Sorry Ether, I just can't buy the "voting for scum is a scum tell" theory here. At worst, it's null.

[Yosarian2]

If we're really not going to lynch MrZepher for whatever reason, I could compromise on a chair lynch. I first want someone to explain first how Zepher could plausably be town, based on his behavior, though.

[Yosarian2]

...

Why on earth would you think she's actually

town

?

-Ether

I dislike that she's basically been lurking lately, and she really hasn't said that much all game. She needs to post more, absolutly. That being said, the few content-posts she did make, especally on day 1, look town-ish to me.

Ethos seems to leap to conclusions they don't really need to be making. I don't agree with their initial logic for town reads (oversoul is town because of HA HA IDHER WAGON, parabollocks is town because he voted for Ythan (?) then switched to someone we found scummy (Kanye) with no other reason than "THIS IS MY REAL READ) at all and I think they tend to leap to conclusions. However, I can buy their claim that they make absolute statements based upon faint suspicions and that they aren't explaining their thought process to us completely, but that there is a genuine thought process going on. Furthermore, I think they have made an adequate attempt to explain the seeming inconsistencies in their logic. Though I still feel like they make a lot of statements that seem just plain wrong, their behavior just does not seem scummy to me. They do not seem to be flailing at the attacks against them, just responding in a frustrated manner to an antagonistic (yet townie town town) Ythan.

Yosarian also steps up the game quite a bit from where parabollocks left off.

I'm going to take a look at Kanye in a bit.

She carefully, and in a thoughtful and intelligent way, explains why she thinks that Ethos and Ythan are probably both town, and she avoids the wagon on me.

I like this post a lot:

I think Ythan is obvtown, but someone or the other on this Ethos wagon is scum. And that someone is being terribly opportunistic. IIRC, people who piled on that Ethos dealie later included Hikari, Spyrex, KoC (though he changed it to Parabollocks), and Empking. So Empking, why are you voting for Ethos now?

And then she voted empking a few posts later, which scared him enough to fake-claim vig.

I wouldn't say that I have a *strong* town read on her, but I'm leaning town-ish on her. I do want to hear from her who her suspects are today.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'll join a Chair wagon. I have about zero town tells from that hydra all game, which is reason enough.

unvote

Vote:Chair

That being said, Zepher is still scum.

[Yosarian2]

Hi, I'll catch up on this game tomorrow~!

FYI, deadline is tommorow and you're at lynch -1.

[Yosarian2]

Why is there a wagon on Chair? He's obv town...

This is an interesting post. Can you explain this read a little bit, or at least point to what posts of Chair give you a town feel from him?

[Yosarian2]

Are you of a different opinion, Yos? Perhaps you or someone else who thinks chair is scum can enlighten me on why they are voting that way?

I am voting chair, but I especially find it interesting when a person who is one of the top two bandwagons finds the other one town. I'd really rather hear you try to explain your opinion, if you can.

Also, like I mentioned recently, chair is kind of a compromise wagon for me; I think he's plausible as scum, but he wasn't my first choice. If you've got a decent reason why chair is town, share it, and if you convince me perhaps we can go lynch MrZepher or somebody instead. We've got a few days now, with the deadline extension; not much time, but enough to probably do something else, if you have a good reason.

[Yosarian2]

Trade time: I'll get that "this is why Chair is town" to you ASAP, if you tell me why you thi k Zepher is a better lynch today.

There are a bunch of things that bother me about his play.

At the time I first voted him, he had never done any real scumhunting all game. Really just a under-the-radar lurker. I hated the way he offhandly called Îdher "chainsawing scum" when they defended me, when Idher seems so incredibly obvious town; it felt like an offhanded way to push a bad wagon. Then when he finally did make a scum list, it made no sense, and really dosn't look like one that could have come from town; day 1, 6 people wagoned the scum Empking to a claim, and 5 of them are still alive. He listed ALL 5 people on his scumlist. He really seemed to think that Empking fakeclaimed to pressure at a point when the entire mafia was bussing him, which makes no sense, and he kept to that even after I pointed it out.

Basically, he did no real scumhunting for most of the game, and when I called him on it and attacked him for it, he did some really fake looking "scumhunting" that cherry picked random quotes out of context and ignored the all most relevant facts in the game. I just don't think he's acted like town.

Further, if Zepher is a better lynch, why aren't you pushing it harder~? ^-^

I pushed it pretty hard. I basically gave up on it as we were getting close to deadline and there were only 2 votes on Zepher, and it looked unlikely anyone else was going to join me there today. It just didn't look like we were going to get a Zepher lynch today at all, so I joined a compromise wagon that I didn't hate in order to try and make sure we got some kind of a decent lynch today. Chair is on my scumlist, but it's more from lack of towntells and general process of elimination stuff then any strong scumtells coming from them.

[Yosarian2]

I have zero interest in lynching LL today. Strongly suspect that she's town.

Chair is also looking slightly better then he did, but he's still pretty borderline.

Is there any support for a Zepher lynch now, or is it still just me and ML willing to go that way?

[Yosarian2]

Reeeally don't like Mastin's posting in the last page or two. He's refusing to answer questions, he's pretty much saying that both chair and LL are scum, which dosn't make any real sense, and he's pretty much refusing to justify his chair vote at all, right before the lynch, which I just hate. I had Mastin as probable town a few pages ago, but he's drifting downwards pretty fast.

[Yosarian2]

Wait, where did Mastin call LL scum?
What I got out of it is that he sees Kunkstar scum

I could be blatantly missing something though.

LLD-Kunkstar interactions are both a waste of time and looking like definitely not townVtown.

We'll deal with LLD later.

Chair dies first. They're at L-1.
====[]

I'd assume "we'll deal with LLD later" and "chair dies first" implies that he wants to lynch LLD tomorrow.

He also had just recently called the slot "scum", although he mentioned he was somewhat less convinced.

[Yosarian2]

I can tell because you think I'm refusing to answer questions.

You really are. I don't like the way you refused to answer Chair at all.

I can also tell, because you fail to realize LLD replaced Sapo, and therefore already has the third spot on my scumlist.

Of course I know LLD replaced Sapo. That's why I think it's pretty absurd for you to think that Chair and LLD are both scum. No way that two scum were both wagoned that close to a lynch at the same time; that would mean that all the scum were bussing, which is prettty absurd.

The point of my post was that you are acting like you think LLD and Chair are both scum, and that dosn't make any sense.

[Yosarian2]

We do need to have some kind of a lynch today.

If there are enough people around who want to lynch someone other then chair, say so right now, and if we happen to have 6 people online who are all willing to switch to someone else, we can do that. Short of that happening, we are going to have to lynch Chair.

(On an unrelated note, I am going to be V/LA next week, from tommorow through the 31st.)

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) You're already voting him. Are there 4 people online who all want to switch to Kanye right now?

[Yosarian2]

Um...crap. Look at the last mod post; we have no time. You have to hammer now.

[Yosarian2]

We won, wooo. :highfive:

Good game, everyone. And hey, at least I caught one scum before I died, and went in three days from "the guy I was replacing was on the verge of getting lynched" to "scum had to nightkill me because I was too obvtown to win", so I'm pretty happy with my play this game. Although it's becoming increasingly clear to me that I actually don't know how to read Sapo.