Mafia 109 - A Glitch in time - Game Over!

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Camn needs to learn to stop breadcrumbing in the RVS.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I do love a bandwagon.

Vote: Nikanor

Note to SC: Please don't unvote without discovering something awesome. Also, I changed our forum skin to mafTigers.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

This is SC.

I can assure you it isn't. I think he's probably still sleeping at this hour.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Hoopla, doesn't tiger kill your eyes?

It makes me feel like a hunter. I swear my vision will be tinted orange for months after this game finishes.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Unvote

Nikanor is town. This wagon should be ashamed of itself.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Actually my experience is that your vision will be tinted the opposite color because your eyes compensate blah blah. So it'd probably be a lighter shade of blue I think.

Thanks Dr. Ythan.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Who wants to make a deal? This is an exclusive offer - the first person who agrees to it, gets it. I'm offering a 50/50 bet to control my vote for the entirity of Day 1 (by the way it's going now, it won't be very long). However, if you lose the bet, I get to control your vote.

I roll a 10-sided dice (in thread), and if it's odd I get your vote. If it's even you get my vote. Hurry now!

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I do love a bandwagon.

Vote: Nikanor

Note to SC: Please don't unvote without discovering something awesome. Also, I changed our forum skin to mafTigers.

Unvote

Nikanor is town

. This wagon should be ashamed of itself.

Discover something awesome?

Yep. See the bolded green line.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I am not interested in your bet, but you are right about the fact that Day 1 will be short. EVERY day will be short, due to this being a quick game.

What was the point in posting that?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Making sure you remembered.
I don't want to see you flopping your

vote

around Tuesday evening saying "I forgot the deadline was so soon!!"
GOSH!

*votes

[A clergyman with a hoop]

[A clergyman with a hoop]

During Sign-ups, me and KMD came to an agreement that we wouldn't kill each other NIGHT ONE, if either of us ended up scum.
I tell you this so you know, if I die tonight.. KMD is NOT auto-scum. We have a truce, of sorts. In case any of you follow history.

Loophole; get a scumbuddy to do the dirty work.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Captain Obvious tells me the one getting squished is me.

If you're town, stop wasting your time and please give your thoughts on your wagon. Was it town/scum driven? Do any of the votes stand out to you?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

My pages are loading extremely slowly for some reason, but would anyone mind explaining why CSL is already being considered scum so soon in the game? I understand Nik and all that, but not-so much why everyone's turning heads at CSL. perhaps I missed something.

This stands out to me in particular. MaB, do you really understand why people thought I was scum?

I can't really give good analysis on my wagon because it's so mind-numbingly stupid. I would look at the people who just echoed 'Yes, he's scum' with Drip. MaB in particular stands out to me because it looks like she's trying to push my wagon while not voting me, and at the same time trying to blend in with the 'o ya Nik's scum' attitude. She's my top suspect for this post.

^ Good post. This is the clearest, most compelling piece of logic I've seen all game (which still doesn't say much). Nikanor needs to be avenged with a MaB lynch tomorrow.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

In b4 nked without posting in game.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I replaced csl after he wad forcibly removed after voting himself to l-1. Since then for meta defence I found six games where he self voted. I am unsurprised by his play here. I think those who went after nik and csl, assuming nik is town, are most likely.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

vote yosarian

hope you agree hoops. I read much from him about csl being scummy rather than a poor player or a liability. Not having the balls to say policy lynch when it's a policy lynch trips the scumdar.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Aldo, I'm going to come up
with whimsical and possibly irritating nicknames for you, my erstwhile partner. So enjoy that, hoop-a-loop.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

wow.

Ok, I don't know if hoopy fruity will agree with me, but something stinks to high heaven about all this.

Can I point out that Nikanor got pulled up for role fishing in the most dubious of circumstances while drip has been ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNING FOR HIM TO CLAIM without anyone batting an eyelid?

I'm so uncool with this wagon, and these tetchy jumpy people knocking it between L-1 and L-2.

DERAIL THAT PUPPY.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Parama gets yos2 scumpoints for being overly incensed by CSL.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

We're not masons with Nikaor, the town read is mine and possibly mine alone, depending on what Hoops McGee decides when she gets her little self in here. But having strong town reads is kinda my thing.

As someone who replaced CSL and has done a fair bit of meta on him, I can garauntee he would have done that no matter what alignment he is. As I said, this is someone who has self-voted three times as town and three times as scum THAT I KNOW OF.

I don't mean to be harsh, and I hope you're listening and improving CSL, but your actions are not surprising to me in the least.

And if someone had said this CSL guy is a liability who doesn't know what he's doing, lets lynch him - tops as, I'm behind you 100%. But if you go on about how likely he is to be scum, that's suspicious.

Sorry for lying to you Elli - <3

Drip's argument about Nikanor not claiming is actually solid. But that's the only decent evidence against him I've seen, and I've seen a lot of bloodthirsty people voting him and unvoting him and keeping him at L-1 and all that rubbish.

Ythan's call for a hammer is rubbish, I don't like Yos2 or parma's reaction to CSL.

In fact, I don't like parma's reaction to almost anything, so dramonic, lets join forces.

vote parma

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Hi, this is Hoopla checking in. Excuse my political incorrectness, but the Nikanor wagon is retarded (which might be a little oxymoronic when you consider the definition of the word, but I digress) and needs to be derailed now. Nikanor not claiming is a solid sign that he is probably town. If he was scum, I'd expect him to show signs of pressure much larger than is currently displayed (I don't see any).

Before this gets discounted as wifom, let me retort by saying, no, it isn't. It is much

likelier

for scum in this situation to fakeclaim a powerrole to deflate their wagon/draw a counterclaim from town. When you consider how trigger-happy every seems in such a highspeed game, there is no way scum-Nikanor would

not

fakeclaim something in this scenario. He stands to gain nothing as scum by not claiming, when there are plenty of automatic benefits fake-claiming could yield.

Either get off the wagon now, or be pursued with malice tomorrow. There is no way I will consider lynching someone not on this wagon tomorrow.

We're not masons with Nikaor, the town read is mine and possibly mine alone, depending on what Hoops McGee decides when she gets her little self in here. But having strong town reads is kinda my thing.

I'm dazzled by this suggestion and still can't figure out how it came into fruition.

~~

Also, Ythan needs to shutup or stop posting noise. I don't remember reading any of his posts that were constructive. I know this is a speed-game, but it doesn't mean whoring for the sake of whoring.

Lynch-wise, I'm currently open to a Maemuki, CSL, Ythan and to a lesser degree MaB. But Mae is by far my number 1 pick, and I deem our shared vote more worthy on her, a noisy proponent of the Nikanor wagon, posting such items as this during the fake-hammer;

Wait. Nik isn't lynched, then? *relieved*

I screwed up. Or did I?

Drippereth, I'm starting to think you're scum because you fail at votecount reads.

I read that it was the hammer too, CSL. Not only me. Hoops/SC did too.

Worst. Case. Ever

. Even you said that it was the hammer, the hypocrisy.

Happiness~! CSL doesn't care about this game!

(PS: If I sound annoyed, it's because I want to freaking strangle Tewi)

(bolded added by me)

Yet, Maemuki is still currently voting Nikanor

, and has been plenty active since this event. This shows Mae's thoughts to be inconsistent with her vote, but is still very happy to ride out the wagon until lynch.

I'm usually quite bleak about town's chances of lynching scum on D1, but I think I've uncovered two major alignments tells (Nikanor and Maemuki), that it's starting to redeem my faith in the game.

Unvote, vote: Maemuki

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Nikanor not claiming is a solid sign that he is probably town. If he was scum, I'd expect him to show signs of pressure much larger than is currently displayed (I don't see any).

Jesus H Christ. Where have you been playing mafia? Heck, I've refused to claim as scum, and people that don't claim are scum. This isn't logic; it's experience. This is what I've observed. IN addition to the lack of claim, the total lack of outrage, berating of the players, demanding to be avenged, calling every scum on his wagon, no "good luck town" is totally scum.

Your case against Maemuki is lame. She may be your buddy, though. The case is lame enough to reek of distancing.

Of course you will deem the Maemuki case lame, as it's totally dependent on Nikanor being town, which is something we stubbornly disagree on.

In my experience (not to belittle and poopoo yours) I've found the opposite. Scum will do anything to deflate their wagon, as their individual survival is more important to their team than a townie's survival is to their team. Claiming is a common way to delay death until a later day and/or draw out potential powerroles. Any scum who doesn't claim to try and save themselves is not playing optimally. And I don't think Nikanor would be that stupid not to claim as scum, because he is not a stupid person.

~~

Mae, appologies about the second quote. I genuinely thought you were talking about the Nikanor wagon at the time. Can you give me in your own words the case on Nikanor? Because since the fake-hammer you've barely posted anything about him (or anything else worthwhile). I want to know your definitive opinion on Nikanor.

~~

Pretty sure that Clergyhoop is scum.

I suggest unvoting since Nikanor is not your prime suspect then.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Her complete confidence, dating way back when, that Nikanor is town,

despite abundant evidence to the contrary

, despite further actions from Nikanor deserving of a lynch, points to that.

Yeah, so much evidence in that page 2 case.

Please run me through the evidence PRIOR to the fake-hammer.

Actually, I can't seem to take this game seriously yet, if it matters.

So you wouldn't mind helping us out and hammering Nikanor, right?

Actually, after his recent posts, I wouldn't mind.

unvote

, vote:

Nikanor

testing something here btw

You're an idiot. Don't fake-vote.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Please run me through the evidence PRIOR to the fake-hammer.

The evidence was purty skimpy. But sometimes you get lucky, which we did. The pseudo-death was a godsend. That's where the case is. And more recently, his stalling of his claim, followed by official refusal to claim.

You're an idiot. Don't fake-vote.

You ruined a perfectly good gambit. What were you thinking?

How would you justify your position being on the wagon the next day if the wagon actually went through and Nikanor was town? I don't like people masquerading the idea that there was a ton of evidence for Nikanor deserving a quick-lynch, because it is 100% false. This is the first time anyone on the wagon has freely admitted that.

We would never have got the 'luck' if in an ill-conceived wagon wasn't created in the first place. That was a scummy wagon and you know it, especially when you concede there was little to no evidence. So, to me, when Maemuki is relieved the lynch didn't go through, and you're a smart enough player to know that a page 7 lynch on a page 2 case in less than a day isn't a smart town play, it makes me wonder how on earth this wagon generated so many votes. It is obviously scum-driven, which means it is highly unlikely Nikanor is scum, because a whole pack of scum bussing out of nowhere, for no reason does not make sense to me, and I'd love to see you try and justify that Nikanor's wagon was either A) town-driven, or B) scum are bussing for no reason.

~~

And fake-voting is a dirty trick that some people consider cheating, not in the spirit of the game etc. I don't care personally, but how do you expect it to work in the first place when Nikanor didn't claim from the first fake-hammer?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Clergyhoop, let's face it, it was a RVS-wagon at first.

Remember, Nikanor's last post before he was fake hammered was on page 2, which means the entirity of the case came from those 4 posts. Do you think it is possible that this was nearly completely town-driven? If no, do you think scum would bus Nikanor based on nothing, when an alternate scum-driven quicklynch on someone else could have also worked?

Also, you still haven't given your definitive thoughts on Nikanor now. How likely do you think he is scum?

Hoops, Clergy, this is a speed game. What were you expecting? I mean, seriously.

We almost lynched in less than 24 hours, and that wagon essentially boiled down to, 'derp lol random voet: nikanor'. Just because it's a speed game, doesn't mean you don't have to use your brain (or less than 25% of the allotted time).

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I don't see how Nik is "omgobvtown", I just don't. Where the hell did he act town?!.

He

didn't do anything special to warrant the title of 'omgobvtown'. It was everyone else who created this read, because bad wagons like that don't form on scum players randomly.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Drippereth, I don't feel like you answered any of my questions. You're using speedgame!!! as a justification for random quicklynches. What information could you have possibly gleaned from a page 2 case if the first hammer went through?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Vanilla should not claim??? I have never, EVER saw this applied in practice. You are lynched, it's twilight, you say: "well you idiots didn't give me a chance to claim but I'm vanilla."

Furthermore, I have often reversed my reads on a player claiming vanilla if they sound honest going down

. I strongly disagree. Vanillas should continue to claim vanilla. That's completely absurd. I never heard of that.

Because most mafia players are indoctrinated to the culture of claiming - we have many games with differing themes and different roles get created every day. It is no wonder to me that site-meta has evolved to this stage.

But Yos is right in my opinion. If a player has been wagoned to L-1 and there is at least one person willing to hammer, a vanilla claim should not be enough to save them. Sometimes wagons to L-2 and L-1 will dissipate without the need for claims, and sometimes claiming prematurely will prevent this possibility. Claims should be a last ditch way to prevent a lynch, not a standard practice enforced universally on every wagon that gets close to lynch.

I would love to see some examples of you doing this.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

CSL is for the vig.

I wouldn't mind whacking Clergyhoop. But Nikanor is still scum for his un-town reaction to "being lynched." This is completely independent from theory discussions.

Besides, when you have a player like me screaming his/her head off that you should bloody claim already, that's a sign that would should bloody claim already, vanilla or not, regardless of some theory discussed by an handful of people some time ago.

Is it the whole not claiming thing? I think that's just a personal choice thing. If your role is about to be flipped anyway, why do you need to say? It's the same principal of ruining the ending of a game in lylo, by saying what you were before the mod gets in.

Here's a recent thread I stumbled upon that might be illuminating for those skeptical about Nikanor's reaction to his 'being lynched'.

unvote, vote Nikanor

random hammer mode activate

I want to tear my hair out.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Imagine that you're a town role, kay? You come back to the thread as Nikanor and see that you got "hammered". What would your reaction be?

It depends on my mood. I've had games or passages of games where I've been very emotional, posting what it is on my mind. And I've had other games where I've been a lot more detached and logical - I don't know how I'd react.

In this case specifically, having only posted 4 times before being lynched, I probably wouldn't care too much, as I had no time invested in the game. There's no point being pissed off, and I genuinely think that was Nikanor's attitude, especially after reading his thread about twilight talk.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Anyway, this whole theory discussion is irrelevant here, since we all agree Nik is scummy for other reasons. If it dosn't look like CSL is going to be lynched, then Monday night I'll move over to the Nik wagon.

Yos, can you tell me what you think about the bandwagon that run Nikanor up to fake-lynch? Is it scum/town motivated?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Eh, I think that the Nik bandwagon is based on reasonable tells and good reasoning, for the most part, along with a dash of the hyper-aggressive play that town needs to do in a speed game like this.

Does this apply to the 'first' hammer, or just the second bit?

Drip - why does a para quickhammer indicate town where a CSL quickhammer doesn't?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Wow, so I was genuinely shocked when Nikanor flipped scum, and then after a few seconds got a gross feeling in my gut about what it meant for us tomorrow. I admit I was utterly wrong about that wagon, and am still very surprised it was scum. But we're going to readjust our reads and do the best we can to show we were sincere. Anyway, on to business;

Clergyhoop decided to play the "can't-be-scum-because-defended-other-scum-like-crazy" card, except that CH pushed the envelope to the point of absurdity; and credibility. CH is scum. Notice the sudden change of heart;

first

, Clergyhoop joins the Nikanor bandwagon

. You can almost feel the wheels and cogs in her mind turning when, second, she totally flips and declares Nikanor absolute town and the wagon retarded. "Uh-oh, trouble... what if I do the total opposite of what I'm expected to do?" Well my friend, the problem is, you went totally overboard and gave yourself away.

I'm as certain that Clergyhoop's reaction is that of scum as I was with Nikanor's yesterday.

I knew this was going to be the default argument that people turned to the next day. You know what the weird thing is though, I bet if Nikanor flipped town you would have found a way to attack me. Your opinion on my stances has shifted enough to allow a default argument for whatever Nikanor flips - it's like you're setting me up to be lynched no matter what. Here are some examples;

If Nikanor flipped town, you have this argument;

Would clergyhoop do this as town? It would be unusual for a townie to be so adamant. An informed minority, though... might do it for town cred.

Weird stuff.

I'm starting to think that Clergyhoop has decided that she'd use her informed minority status to show off how great she is at reading townies. Her complete confidence, dating way back when, that Nikanor is town, despite abundant evidence to the contrary, despite further actions from Nikanor deserving of a lynch, points to that.

~~

But of course, she also has a nice argument in the event Nikanor flips scum too (one we're seeing unfurled). The main issue seems to be confidence, which was mostly my (Hoopla) input - I defended a lot harder than SC did, but he definitely did agree with me. There is almost no way my actions could be considered town, regardless of Nikanor's flip. I don't think Drippereth is guilty of deliberately setting up this scenario, but it's weird how often DGB and Ellibereth (at times) give similar statements of absolute confidence, yet will not incur a similar wrath if they end up being wrong (or right).

Consider this; now that Drippereth is confident that I'm scum, will she come under fire tomorrow for being dead wrong? Probably not. If she is right about me being scum, it's probably another free pass, too. I find it bizarre how we've been forced into a double-lose scenario based off an incorrect read.

To me, it was very logical that Nikanor was town. The speed with which his wagon grew made it feel obvious he was town. Especially when the case was based on nothing. I'm going to have to reassess this situation, but I find it unusual I was the only one in the whole town who took that stance, when it should have been a lot more common. I fail to believe anyone on the wagon genuinely knew what it was for, other than 'lol wagon'.

~~

Some other things Drippereth needs to talk me through;

Must-die players:

7 - A Clergyman with a Hoop (Yosarian's buddy, NOT Nikanor's buddy)

Nikanor is absolutely not scum with Clergyhoop. Of this I am 100% certain. If there is one scum faction, that means that Nikanor is SK; if there are two scum factions, he probably belongs to the other. However, I'm going to venture a guess that there is one scum faction and a SK, because a small scum group would suspect the existence of a second one, and hope for town cred from lynching the second scumgroup. I'm not seeing this here. We'll see how the NKs go.

Pretty sure that Clergyhoop is scum.

What changed?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

H-H-Hoops is a much nicer person than I am. I was just going to say that I really enjoy the fact that all the people who are condemning us for a wrong read are going to see they've made JUST AS WRONG A READ tomorrow, but she said it all much nicer than I would have.

I still hold that the only decent point against Nikanor was that he didn't claim, but I guess you can't argue method with that kind of result.

Interestingly, I think that the quotes Hoopla provides above only really further indicate drip's towniness. I think if they were scum bussing and looking to take advantage of our misguided defence of him they wouldn't have made such a fuss over our town read.

Spyrex is looking townie. He can pull out the town reads as scum, but he has a specific reason for thinking we're town that he's articulating well, so I'm feelign good about him.

Some less obvious defences than screaming in thread to derail the lynch:

So I guess we're lynching Nikanor.
Cool. You guys do that, I'm not against it.
I'm also not against lynching CSL.
My vote stays. I don't feel like jumping on an RVS-esque wagon atm.

I'm not saying Nik isn't scum. I'm saying CSL is a better lynch.

unvote vote Parama

Nik isn't doing anything, will keep a stern eye on him when he does.

Vote: Nikanor
For obvious reasons.

sorry guys been at work all day and am really tired...hadn't put my RV in so that's what it was if that seemed out of context...sorry for lack of content but tomorrow is saturday and I have the day off so i shall be catching up and inputting opinion! Night for now -.-

NO it was a stupid f**king wagon. Nik was not buddying to you. The man was trying to see whether he should agree with Drip's scum assessment of you, likely to determine if he would vote for you. There IS merit to Goof's belief that Nik could have been cop-fishing, but the people who voted Nik weren't even going off that.

Drip gets me to thinking about policy lynches... I just now imagine that scum, if not the easy lynchees, are setting up quicklynches on unchallenging players so that they can silence the stronger players at night. Nik almost got hammered 1 RL day into the game. Something scary to think about.

Meh, at the moment, I wouldn't be too unhappy with either a Nik or a CSL lynch. Nik has yet to give me any reason to think he's town. I don't know why everyone is so eager to let CSL survive the day without even trying to explain his incredibly scummy and anti-town behavior, though, and I really don't think CSL should survive the day unless he at least tries to start making sense. The way people seem to be leaping in to try to stop him from getting lynched without giving any good reason for it just makes me want to kill CSL more.

Actually, after his recent posts, I wouldn't mind.

unvote

, vote:

Nikanor

testing something here btw

I'm thinking we lynch clergy now
vote: A clergyman with a hoop

In any case, though, Nik, I really need to hear something useful from you. A defense, a case against someone, what you think about one of the other people, who you think we should lynch today, ect. Right now, I'm willing to see you lynched mostly because you have yet to really do anything all game, Nik.

Theory aside. in THIS GAME... claiming is a pro-town thing to do, i think. Especially post-hammer. If you subscribe to the idea that a well-informed town is a victorious town, that is. Which I do.

That said.. I am willing to follow Yos on a CSL wagon if we cannot reach consensus re: Nika.
I DREAM of Drip-town, camn-town and Yos2-town all playing in concordance..... so if we 3 can come to an agreement, that would help my dream come true

unvote, vote Nikanor
random hammer mode activate

imho, I think scum saw CSL as a chance to get a mislynch. The other wagon was a probably town-fuelled charge that happened to hit scum, so they needed a targetto switch suspicion to and quick. CSL was the best choice, because he looks so filthily scummy.

The two who were pushing CSL the most were Yos2 and Para. They both take very non-commital views on Nikanor, and have that "Nikanor is an ok lynch but I'm not going to vote him because look over here, this guy is MORE scummy" type of attitude. Para hammered, but only after a fake vote hammer, then a quick attempt at a clergyhoop wagon and only when it was patently obvious Nik was the lynch did they change back.

McZombie, Weeaboo etc both haven't really posted enough for me to get a read on their actions. I don't know if camn's last little post was an attempted derail but it was odd that she'd suggest that the town couldn't make up their minds on Nikanor when he was sitting on L-1 with very few vocal defenders.

I think I'm going to

Vote Yos2

, with suspicious glaces at Para in second place and the others mentioned rounding out the pack.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Actually, Weeaboo rounds out a clear bronze medal ahead of the pack I think.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Ythan, in a paragraph or two, can you summarize the MaB case? Vague listings of isolation posts won't suffice. Convince me!

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Did everything in their power to prevent a Nikanor lynch, even went so far as to bus a potential scumbuddy - then exclamations of "shock and awe" after the mafia flip.
Well, that's beside the fact the clergyhoop is scum but meh.

Who exactly are we bussing? I don't understand your accusation. Is it even aimed at us?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I would ISO you but I'd get more just from reading the thread seeing as you have posted 167 times.

hahahaha and none of them are memorable. seriously ythan, pipe down.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Parama, are you only suspicious of people who opposed the Nikanor wagon? Why are scum more likely to take that position over bussing?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Parama, you're calling scum based on extremely flimsy evidence. Your interpretation is one of a great number of possibilities. That's not evidence, it's a theory.

Let's just agree to disagree then. You're just going to hate how I've decided to play this game.

No I'm just going to continue to push the case that (among other things) you're not backing up your own cases.

CSL I didn't have much to back up with.
Clergy I have given plenty of reason and plenty of evidence.
Stop spamming.

I hope that wasn't directed at me, because you know....

Hoopla posts in the last 24 hours: 7
Parama posts in the last 24 hours: 26



~~

I'm not going to 'spam' if you give legitimate reasons. A theory based on me opposing a wagon is just a theory if you can't offer reasons why this is more likely for me to do as scum. You have a very shallow circle of logic that seems to be based on minimal thinking. Also, your case about me bussing buddies doesn't fly - it's essentially an assumption based upon an assumption, which omits multitudes of possibilities. Point to some evidence, rather than just saying there is lots of it.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Hey Ellibereth - you've now seen the extent of the mindfuck I just gave you as scum in our friends and enemies game. And so I know that you have an understanding of my scumplay that goes beyond "defended-scum-so-is-scum".

REALISE that I am not scum here.

CONVINCE your triggerhappy partner is the case

COMMUNICATE this knowledge to the other chimps running around here.

Alrighty, now that that is out of the way, there's lots of little pissy fights here. If we can't look at people who were surrepticiously delaying the Nikanor wagon (hint: Yos2 explaining what Nik should do to erase suspicion on him totally counts, as does pushing a confirmed VI VT over a confirmed scum) then how about that McZombie character? He deserves a bollocking.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

First of all, I'm going to repeat a question that was never answered. Drippereth, can you please answer it;

Some other things Drippereth needs to talk me through;

Must-die players:

7 - A Clergyman with a Hoop (Yosarian's buddy, NOT Nikanor's buddy)

Nikanor is absolutely not scum with Clergyhoop. Of this I am 100% certain. If there is one scum faction, that means that Nikanor is SK; if there are two scum factions, he probably belongs to the other. However, I'm going to venture a guess that there is one scum faction and a SK, because a small scum group would suspect the existence of a second one, and hope for town cred from lynching the second scumgroup. I'm not seeing this here. We'll see how the NKs go.

Pretty sure that Clergyhoop is scum.

What changed?

~~

I'm now going to address a few other things that have happened since our last post. Drippereth's mind-meld post is hilarious, although I have a feeling that wasn't the desired effect. It's the equivalent of a bad PBPA or isolation case, that ignores

any

chance of the contrary to her theories. I hope nobody took this post seriously, because it's just a dressed up post saying 'CLERGY IS SCUM' without anything substancial behind it.

~~

This also upsets me, because I've addressed this before, between pages of Ythan spam.

*My problem with clergyhoops is that I dont understand what was the reason for clearing Nikanor with no basis at all. Clergy, help me here?

Nikanor is town. This wagon should be ashamed of itself.

I'll run you through my thought process on Day 1. I see a wagon spiral to L-2 based on a page 2 case which contains essentially nothing. It felt

obvious

to me that the wagon was scum-motivated, as I don't think the town would be so detrimental and take such silly risks (especially when Nikanor was fake-hammered before he had a chance to come back). After interrogating several players I finally weedled out that Drippereth didn't believe there was any evidence on the

initial

Nikanor wagon (which is the time-frame my quote comes from), yet you wouldn't believe it at the time with quotes like this;

It's because Drip twice said that she wanted Parama lynched, Anon. Saying it once is random, saying it twice means to me that she has something.

Yeah, I got something, you're scum.

I'd build a case but you're dropping scumtells faster than I can process them.

unvote, vote: Nikanor

I <3 camn.

I think Anon is seeing the same thing I am - Nikanor is scum. Do you see it? Read carefully.

I <3 camn.

I think Anon is seeing the same thing I am - Nikanor is scum. Do you see it? Read carefully.

Please unvote camn, she is town. We need your Nikanor vote ASAP, we're done with random voting.

It's not explicitely scummy as it suits DGB's playstyle to come up with early declarations of alignment. But the town doesn't realize it opens up her options to go after

anyone

, as she has meta of being ridiculously erratic. Just see the quotes at the top of my post to see the lengths in which she can change her views without coming under suspicion. I admit, such practices occasionally net scum, but it can also make DGB difficult to read and paint her into corners if one or two of her strong reads are wrong (the kind of corner we are in for our wrong read).

Okay, I've veered onto a tangent, and the point I'm supposed to be addressing is

why

I thought Nikanor was town. It largely stemmed from the speed of the wagon - scum-motivated wagons generally run quicker than town-pushed wagons. I know this is a speed game, but Nikanor's wagon was ridiculous. I've never seen scum quicklynched and refused to believe scum would bus out of the gate so hard. This was my genuine interpretation of the event, and I can't believe people don't see this line of thinking.

~~

Also, whoever it was that was asking me to claim. You're kidding yourself.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Is anyone up for an omlete?

BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF EGG ON PEOPLE'S FACES OVER HERE!

Anyways, leave Spyrex alone, vigman. And Drippereth, although hopefully Elli can muzzle the drooling attack dog for some genuine discussion tomorrow.

Stick with the Yos2/Para stuff, it's worth exploring that.

Apart from that, it's SC and Hoop-de-loop out.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Is anyone up for an omlete?

BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF EGG ON PEOPLE'S FACES OVER HERE!

Anyways, leave Spyrex alone, vigman. And Drippereth, although hopefully Elli can muzzle the drooling attack dog for some genuine discussion tomorrow.

Stick with the Yos2/Para stuff, it's worth exploring that.

Apart from that, it's SC and Hoop-de-loop out.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I'm going to look at the initial Day 1 wagon on Nikanor for a bit now, because there are a couple of people I think that can be cleared based on their playstyles and a bit of logic. Here is the vote count when I jumped off the wagon on page 4;

Nikanor

- camn, Anon, Drippereth, Maemuki Ythan Yos2

CSL

~

Initially I assumed this wagon was scum-motivated because of how quickly it ran, but I've been forced to change my views due to Nikanor's flip. While I've seen scum collectively bus from nowhere, I think the only players here

capable

of this are Drippereth, camn and Yos2. Despite this, it just seems like a farfetched way to start a game, and I doubt of the three players I listed more than one is scum.

Drippereth

was the one who declared the premature fakehammer. I don't know if she would have been so eager to do this to a scumbuddy, and I feel like she's had pro-town motivations most of the game (despite being wrong about me).

camn

's position on the wagon seems a little shakier, but there is nothing substancial to incriminate her with. I don't know her well enough to make accurate predictions on whether she'd bus so hard at the start of a game. The one post that made feel uneasy about her was this;

Wow. That is not the kind of brinksmanship I am used to! But I guess that goes to show what happens when you try and RVS-bandwagon ME.

It feels quite fake, as if she wasn't expecting the wagon to be pushed through, and maybe caught herself out with a early distancing vote that couldn't be easily removed once the wagon got going.

Yosarian

came onto the initial wagon at L-3, which I'm finding hard to gauge. But if anyone on this wagon is bussing, I think it is probably Yos, due to this being a safe enough time to drop a vote. He's a smart player and must have known a page 1 post from Nikanor would not be enough to push a wagon through. I could see this as a potential distancing vote, especially when he finds ways off the wagon once the fake-hammer issue passes. Here is a quote that really bothers me;

Yos, can you tell me what you think about the bandwagon that run Nikanor up to fake-lynch? Is it scum/town motivated?

Eh, I think that the Nik bandwagon is based on reasonable tells and good reasoning, for the most part, along with a dash of the hyper-aggressive play that town needs to do in a speed game like this. Plus, as I've said, I haven't seen any real scumhunting from Nik yet, and that alone makes him a reasonable lynch.

I honestly don't see Yosarian deluding himself like this, and I don't see him making this statement about 'lack of scumhunting' as if it's some kind of massive point, when so many others were guilty of this at the time. It feels as if he came up with the second reason to bulk up a flimsy first reason. The most significant point in all of this, is his influence on the initial wagon (based on nothing, but claiming it a good case), then staying off the Nikanor wagon for the rest of the day.

I don't think this would normally be so scummy if it weren't for me being able to see more townspeople on the

initial

Nikanor wagon.

Maemuki

is looking very town because of this early bandwagon. She really doesn't strike me as the sort to bus from the outset so hard - it makes me think she just got luck catching her vote on scum. My D1 case was heavily critical of her leaving her vote on Nikanor (after the fakehammer fiasco), but this now looks exceedingly town, because of the amount of other places her vote could go if she really wanted. Of the people on the

final

lynch (see followed), her position is probably the most town along with McZombie (but I'll explain that soon).

Nikanor

- camn, Anon, Drippereth, Maemuki, McZombie,

CSL

, Ythan, Spyrex, Parama ~

~~

From the time I unvoted on page 4, there were a few very telling posts between then and the fake-hammer. Here is the sequence of events;

Nikanor

- camn, Anon, Drippereth, Maemuki Ythan Yos2

CSL

~

The votes show a healthy wagon forming on Nikanor despite a lack of evidence. When Nachomamma checks in, I feel like he takes the appropriate and most expected scum stance;

Vote: camn

Competing bandwagons = instant win.

Mae, if you're serious about the CSL-bussing, can you give us an example?

Rather than pushing the Nikanor wagon, he chooses to post on the second highest one. This is probably the safest scum option. It isn't an obvious attempt to prematurely derail a scum-wagon (when there is a chance it will wilt by itself), but still pushes someone else into the limelight to encourage that wilt (camn was the second highest vote getter at the time). I'm not hugely certain of my interpretation, but it certainly stood out between then and the fake-hammer.

CSL then makes an excuse to jump off the wagon;

Saying I'm a better lynch because it's a policy is scummy. Haven't I said that before?

Anyways, I still thought this was RVS. Guess it's not.

unvote

Then, so does Ythan, which feels justifiable;

unvote vote Parama

Nik isn't doing anything, will keep a stern eye on him when he does.

Especially when he was on the final Nikanor wagon too. It just doesn't seem like something a scum-Ythan would consider doing. There were plenty of mislynch candidates available for pursuing after the fake-hammer.

McZombie

then jumps on the Nikanor bandwagon;

Vote: Nikanor

For obvious reasons.

This feels VERY town. I don't see a new player like her jumping on a buddy's wagon like that. I hate to discount a player based on such specious reasoning, but I just can't see it being a bussing vote.

Then CSL jumps back on the wagon which is when DGB declares a fake-hammer;

Actually, screw it. You all can lynch me tomorrow if you want.

Vote: Nikanor

Unless of course, he's scum, in which you all should thank me.

~~

Again here is the final vote-count of the day. But I'm going to green out players I think are town, and probably didn't bus Nikanor;

Nikanor

- camn, Anon,

Drippereth, Maemuki, McZombie, CSL

,

Ythan

, Spyrex,

Parama

~

I wanted to green

camn

and

Anon

, but I get a gut feeling one them might be bussing very hard. I think it's a very slim chance and not worth considering by itself. The rest of their play feels town - Anon's 775 is goodposting, and makes him probably not scum. Camn is appearing town as usual too, but I've yet to see any of her scum games and am paranoid to rule her out. I think it's likeliest there is only 0-1 scum being on the final lynch-count.

Parama

's hammer is very pro-town (even if I didn't think so at the time). I was in a heated argument at the time with several players and could have quite easily come into contention at that time-frame. I still think the hammer was stupid, but I can't see him doing it as scum.

In conclusion (and in conjunction with SC's reads), Yosarian is my (our) top suspect, and I really think we should be lynching someone off the Nikanor wagon if I can't get Yosarian genuinely considered.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Oh we're hammered. Never mind. Good luck town. Stop following DGB and learn to read the game yourself.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Yes.

Pro tip - if you're scum and you've just seen a scumbuddy lynched primaily due to lack of claiming and you're scum yourself, you claim.

If you're town and you feel it's pro-town not to claim for whatever reason (and there's solid theory behind it) you don't.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Oh we're hammered. Never mind. Good luck town. Stop following DGB and learn to read the game yourself.

You wrote all that not knowing you were hammered, and you still didn't include a claim?

You're going to know my role when I flip, so why do I need to bother now? Unless you were talking about my previous big post - when I posted that, I didn't know I was hammered, because it took me so long to write.

Also, I didn't claim because when you asked we were at L-3 or L-2, and we had just had a premature vanilla claim a couple of pages earlier. I thought I could try and talk our way out of the lynch, but obviously that isn't a smart idea in such a ruthless, impatient town.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Where is Spyrex analysis in that post?

Serial thinks he's town, I'm not so sure. If anyone is bussing on the Nikanor wagon, it is probably him. But Yosarian should be the town's number 1 priority tomorrow (other than ignoring DGB, and stopping Ythan from spamming).

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Also you all can drop the hammer charade. Yes, you too serialhoops.

Im headdesking right now deciding wether hoops is actually town or a really raelly brilliant scumbag.

Wait, we're not lynched? You better not be messing with me.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

By the way, SPyrex can coast on his town read of us but dramonic can't - I'm not sure I'm digging him.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Why did you do this DGB?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Also you all can drop the hammer charade. Yes, you too serialhoops.

Im headdesking right now deciding wether hoops is actually town or a really raelly brilliant scumbag.

Well, I just took a screenshot of our QT topic for you. The ':(' post by me was made because I thought I was lynched, and matches up if you look at the timestamps.

Hopefully this proves my innocent somewhat, rather than claiming.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I think DGB needs to get over herself and realize that not everyone subscribes to her rigid formalities. I don't deem it a pro-town thing to do (especially when I was at L-3 when you asked, and especially when another vanilla claim came out prematurely). Sorry. You'll have to lynch me to see.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Are you even allowed to do that?

There's nothing against it in the rules. I'm not posting my role PM or any other confidential information. This is just conversation between myself and SC. The equivalent of posting/screenshotting a file of your notes file, or whatever.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Anon, I just don't think we should be lynching someone on the Nikanor wagon, even if SpyreX is likeliest to be scum on it. I think we have better chances if we lynch somewhere off the Nikanor wagon. The fundamental difference probably comes from you thinking there is 1-2 scum on Nikanor's wagon (who else?) and me thinking there is likelier to be 0-1.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I think its pretty likely there is at least one scum bussing there considering how the wagon developed with "no case" at all. Dont you think? Spyrex vote is like the worse there and considering the other townie reads and his lacking behavior, Id still say he is a healthy vig/lynch target.

Anyways, once again, a better suspect emerges. All I can is honor my avatar and contribute.

It amuses me how it seems more than half the players want me dead and I'm still alive

lol

Unvote Vote: dramonic.

Probably. But it was only the very first wagon that developed with no case. Ythan and CSL dropped off (but both got on at the end of the day). Yosarian dropped off too, and is I think the logical choice because he was on the 'no case' wagon, but managed to stay off and push other wagons once the Nikanor wagon actually started generating reasons.

He's always careful to mention how suspicious he is of Nikanor, but it's always in conjunction with pushing a different wagon at the same. He never gets on the Nikanor wagon again for the rest of the day. This is the best of both worlds - early bussing, then someone not on the end-wagon. It's perfect!

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Overall, my current thinking is that scum are in the pool of Dram, Spyrex, Pulindar, Nacho, and Yos.

Mostly agree with this. I have a feeling one of Weaboo or KMD will come up scum though, and I don't think Pulindar is scum.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

How many scum do you have left? 3 or 4?
And you know I just had to deal with a Vig, Cop, Vengeful, Empowerer,

Governer

, Scumteam. Don't tell methere are double voting scum now.
DGB and I also both have Weaboo = Town, So yeah

3 scum are left + 1 vig/SK. I can't find any way in my head that I can balance a 5 player mafia team against 12 town. Two scum groups is very very unlikely too, as it's probable the vig went for CSL (or an SK trying to get vig points).

I think Haylen has a penchant for SK's, so my guess would be 4:12:1 is what we're playing in.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

We still have ~24 hours until lynch. I will change my vote to dramonic before then if needed, but I'd still prefer to keep the Yosarian lynch alive until then.

Haylen:

can we get the deadline or countdown timer maybe in all the vote counts. it was annoying having to go through your posts to find out when it was.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I still dislike this 'claim or die!' mentality - it's probably warranted here, but it's an ugly habit to get into. Remember Fate not claiming when he got to L-1 in PYP, Elli? Sometimes there is a reason. And sometimes not all wagons go through to lynch when they are on L-1 or L-2, and can dissipate naturally without a role outed. Claims have a tendancy to lock players in as the day's lynch, because outing any more people is risky. I don't like it.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I'm not convinced what Hoopla did in posting our QT is kosher. I mean, we could ask all the hydras to post all their communication over the past few days, and if any of them were scum they wouldn't be able to fake a QT with timestamps all saying towny things.

I don't know, it just seems like if I was scum in a hydra, it would be an unreasonable task to create and run a fake QT just in case the town ever demands a 'post town conversation between you or die'.

Anyway, it's done now, I think perhasp the mod could bandaid the rules for this reason? Up to you.

Quick games =/= lynch at random.

I have a solid town read on Spyrex, Hoopla not so much. Calls for vigs are uncool, stop it. Dramonic wagon is decent though.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Yes, you are getting that right.

It's an unfair burden to scum hydras to ask that they maintain a fake QT over time with 'town' thoguhts to each other in case the town demands at any time that they screen shot it or die.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

The first Nikanor wagon was absolutely at random. It was basedo n absolutely nothing. It happened to hit scum - and therefore got me and Hoopla into a lot of trouble - but it was at random.

The second one was better, and I did say that in one of my posts, the claiming argument was good.

But today's PUSH PUSH NO TIME CLAIM OR DIE NEXT TARGET style attacks seem to me to be near-random.

For atl east 2 reasons I can think of, calling for vigs is bad.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

And before I forget, Hoops my dear, I think that the CSL shot could well be an opposing scumgroup genuinely thinking CSL was scum. So it's not impossible that there's 2 scum groups.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Woah, hang on. I don't like the idea of lynching a gunsmith, if only for the fact he's good NK bait for the scum (if he's truthful), which gives good protection to some of our obv-townies. I don't think scum can risk leaving him alive for that. Dramonic, are you saying that you investigated DGB for no-gun?

Can we lynch Yosarian now?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Why did you choose to investigate Drippereth?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

and then you guys tell me Parama is town =_=

You are a great wagon.

Parama, what do you think of Dramonic's claim?

~~

Dram, help me lynch Yosarian.