Mafia 109 - A Glitch in time - Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

I <3 camn.

I think Anon is seeing the same thing I am - Nikanor is scum. Do you see it? Read carefully.

(nods) Yup, this post is scummy:

It's because Drip twice said that she wanted Parama lynched, Anon. Saying it once is random, saying it twice means to me that she has something.

Vote :Nikanor

No need to be so pushy. I planned to wait at least until page three to move my vote and I'd really like to see at least one post from each player.

:eyebrow: Trying to slow down the pace of the game and delay bandwagoning people for legitimate reasons ins a speed game? That seems pretty anti-town to me; we're going to have enough trouble getting stuff done by tuesday without "I'm going to wait until page 3 to do anything".

Game started while I was at school, obv.

Nikanor is at L-2. Nice quickwagon there.

Huh? If the mod's votecount is right, then Ythan's vote only put Nik at 5 votes, with 9 to lynch. He was at lynch -4 when you said that, not lynhc -2. (After my vote, he's now at lynch -3).

[Yosarian2]

I do love a bandwagon.

Vote: Nikanor

Note to SC: Please don't unvote without discovering something awesome. Also, I changed our forum skin to mafTigers.

So, what changed from here to here?

Unvote

Nikanor is town. This wagon should be ashamed of itself.

Also, wtf is this?

[quote="A clergyman with a hoop"[/quote]
Who wants to make a deal? This is an exclusive offer - the first person who agrees to it, gets it. I'm offering a 50/50 bet to control my vote for the entirity of Day 1 (by the way it's going now, it won't be very long). However, if you lose the bet, I get to control your vote. [/quote]

Anyway:

Meh, if Nik flips scum I'll gladly take the next lynch. I mean, scum do often buddy up with townies to set up mislynches, and I'm one of those townies, but I can't fault you for using WIFOMish logic. Oh wait.

Are you that sure Nik is town here, Parama? Why? Based on what, exactally? THis whole post is bizzare.

And I see Drip agrees with me on this as well. Good, good.

And I'll take the lynch because you'll lynch me anyways regardless of my alignment.

Why would anyone ever say "I'll take the lynch"? That's just a bizzare thing to say, Para.

IF Nikanor is buddying up to someone (and the infraction would be pretty minor), wouldn't be to me, rather than to Nikanor?

Well, Nik was defending Para there. He might have been buddying up to para, or he might have been defending a scumbuddy there. I don't see how he's buddying up to you.

Not lynching CSL like they should be.
Don't even try to misrep me by saying I'm trying to switch the target.

And this post is really weird, especally the second part where he preemtivly denies "trying to switch the target" and saying that's a "misrep". What the heck does that even mean? If you think CSL is scummier then anyone else, then you should be pushing for a CSL lynch; if that's a different target then the town was trying to lynch, that's not a bad thing. The only way this post makes sense is if you are trying to "switch the target" away from someone who you know is scum.

Anyway, I'm still only to page 5 in reading, heh, but this post is long enough.

[Yosarian2]

I see why you guys think Nik is scum.

Vote: camn.

I've never played with KMD before, but I hear he's a good player. If he hasn't found scum by now, I'd be surprised.

^ following an RVS vote for a stupid reason

Are you serious when you say Parama is scum, Drip?

^ potential maf defending potential buddy

It's because Drip twice said that she wanted Parama lynched, Anon. Saying it once is random, saying it twice means to me that she has something.

^ more of the same

I'm not saying Nik isn't scum. I'm saying CSL is a better lynch.

If you don't think Nik is town, then that what the heck did all that stuff about how "if Nik flips scum you'll take the lynch" mean?

Anyways, I still thought this was RVS. Guess it's not.

unvote

Holy hell. ARe you saying you knowingly put someone to lynch -1 with no reason at all?

I mean, seriously, WTF?

It makes even less sense if you look at his earlier posts:

Game started while I was at school, obv.

Nikanor is at L-2. Nice quickwagon there.

@ Nikanor's bandwagon: Why do you think Nik's scum?

First he claims Nik is at lynch -2 (when he's not), demands a reason, and attacks the wagon for being a "quickwagon".

Then, later:

Vote: Nikanor

I don't like him. I think he's scum.

L-1, by the way.

He knowingly puts Nik at lynch -1 saying "I think he's scum"

Now, he's unvoting Nik, and saying he thought everything up to this point was random? That dosn't even make sense.

I'm really think CSL looks really scummy here. Possibly scum with Nik, although really he looks bad either way here.

Parama, I find it amusing that you of all people would be the one endorsing a policy lynch.

This is the first thing Drip's said all game I don't agree with, but it does bug me. Drip, have you been reading CSL's posts? How could you call a vote against CSL here a "policy vote"?

First vote of the game = me voting CSL.
I don't bus in RVS.

This is probably the worst WIFOM defense I've ever seen, lol.

Good thing you're a vig then.

FOS:Ythan

for that comment.

Actually, screw it. You all can lynch me tomorrow if you want.

Vote: Nikanor

Unless of course, he's scum, in which you all should thank me.

Yeah, CSL is scum.

Is hammering without a claim acceptable?

No, of course not.

During Sign-ups, me and KMD came to an agreement that we wouldn't kill each other NIGHT ONE, if either of us ended up scum.
I tell you this so you know, if I die tonight.. KMD is NOT auto-scum. We have a truce, of sorts. In case any of you follow history.

Lol. (shakes head) Not going to put much weight into that, especially since I don't think KMD would be allowed by site rules to go along with a pre-game agreement if doing so hurt his chances to win.

Ok, all caught up now.

Unvote:Nik

for the moment. He's still suspicious as hell, but CSL is worse.

Vote:CSL

[Yosarian2]

But I do think Nikanor is scum after all. He didn't bother claiming ("bunch of idiots, you just lynched the DOCTOR!!!" or "No big deal I was just vanilla") and he didn't express the natural outrage expected: "ALL the scum is on my wagon!!!"

On that basis I think Nikanor is indeed scum.

He could be. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on CSL right now, though.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, screw it. You all can lynch me tomorrow if you want.

Vote: Nikanor

Unless of course, he's scum, in which you all should thank me.

Yeah, CSL is scum.

Is he scum with Nikanor? That's my working hypothesis at the moment.

(shrug) The way I see it at the moment, if Nik is scum, then CSL is probably his buddy, and if Nik is town, then CSL is probably scum trying to quicklynch a townie. I can't think of any scenerio where CSL makes sense as town here.

Why bother claiming? I was dead anyway. And as I said before, I'm simply dumbfounded at the people on my wagon. Most are just nodding their heads and agreeing, and probably don't even know why you want to lynch me.

Oh, I doubt that. Perhaps CSL had no idea why he wanted to lynch you. Most people on your wagon, though, seemed to know exactally what they were doing.

vote yosarian

hope you agree hoops. I read much from him about csl being scummy rather than a poor player or a liability. Not having the balls to say policy lynch when it's a policy lynch trips the scumdar.

What the hell? How is CSL not scummy? First he defended Nik, then he put him at lynch -1 for no reason other then thinking Nik was scum (note there were no Nik posts between the defense of Nik and the vote for Nik, so this apparently wasn't based on anything Nik did), then he claimed he "thought we were in the random phase" and unvoted, then he tried to hammer Nik (or said he was trying to hammer Nik.) I'm not voting him because he's be a "poor player" or whatever, I'm voting for him because he's scum, and obviously so. There's no way a townie questions the speed of a bandwagon, then puts them at -1, then claims he thought the whole thing was random, then tries to quickhammer without getting a claim. The actions make much more sense if you assume CSL is either a scum who wants to get a townie lynched but dosn't want to look bad doing it, or a scum who dosn't know how to handle a fast wagon on his buddy.

Really, Clergyman, you need to explain to me how you could possibly think CSL is town here, or why you insist on pretending that his wagon is some kind of "policy lynch" when it's clearly based on pretty huge and obvious scumtells.

And when asked why he tried to hammer, he responded:

Do I have to answer that?

Are you serious? Yes, of course you do.

Yeah, but since she said ythan unvoted, it made me think Nik was at L-1, and confusion shrouded the rest of you.

Ok, so why did you WANT to quickhammer Nik that early in the day before he'd had a chance to claim?

In death there is no reveal.

...

Excuse me?

Hmm. Who's in the Weaboo hydra?

[quote="Drippereth"[/quote]
I don't view the obsession with the policy/utility lynch of CSL having to be on Day 1 when we don't even know if we have a vig. Parama is totally tunelled (as scum or town) but Yosarian's vote is disappointing in a scummy sorta way.
[/quote]

FOS:Drippereth

I've made pretty damn clear I'm voting CSL because I think he's more likely scum then anyone else in the game, and instead of denying that or explaining why he disagrees with me, he and Clergy keep pretending CSL is some kind of "policy/utility lynch". At this point, I'm really starting to think this is deliberate misrepresentation of the case against CSL.

[Yosarian2]

I've said a few times where the "In death there is no reveal" line came from.

Well, run it past me again.

[Yosarian2]

However, I believe that Nikanor's reaction to his pseudo-lynch is more clearly scum. Furthermore, there is still hope that CSL would be vig'ed tonight.

Never trust a vig to do a town's job. Half the time there's not a vig, and if there is one, he usually just kills a few random townies for no reason and then dies.

I prefer a Nikanor lynch. He's stalling his claim, he didn't even claim when he thought he was dead, all that jazz, it's a cardinal sin in my book.

I don't think refusing to claim is a scum tell, but I'm not going to get into that discussion here. (It would be a much bigger problem if this actually was a no-reveal game; I wish I knew wth Ythan was talking about.)

Meh, at the moment, I wouldn't be too unhappy with either a Nik or a CSL lynch. Nik has yet to give me any reason to think he's town. I don't know why everyone is so eager to let CSL survive the day without even trying to explain his incredibly scummy and anti-town behavior, though, and I really don't think CSL should survive the day unless he at least tries to start making sense. The way people seem to be leaping in to try to stop him from getting lynched without giving any good reason for it just makes me want to kill CSL more.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, how much attention are you paying to the thread? You finished reading right?

I have. Of course, ever time I've looked at this thread, there's been 5 more pages, so it wouldn't surprise me if I missed something.

I know that wasn't the first time Ythan said that, if that's what you're asking.

[Yosarian2]

As someone who replaced CSL and has done a fair bit of meta on him, I can garauntee he would have done that no matter what alignment he is.

And if someone had said this CSL guy is a liability who doesn't know what he's doing, lets lynch him - tops as, I'm behind you 100%. But if you go on about how likely he is to be scum, that's suspicious.

Meh. I don't care if a player is supposed to be good or bad, we still have to try to read his alignment. And in this case, CSL looks to me like scum, probably newbie scum, but scum nonetheless. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with for his behavior towards Nik.

If you want to tell me that something CSL has done in this game is some kind of legitimate pro-town tell on him for meta reasons or something, that'd be a reasonable argument and I'd be interested to hear it. "He's a bad player so if you think he's scum there's something wrong with you" is not an argument; bad players are just as likely to be scum as anyone else.

[Yosarian2]

OK, we hammer you. Only scum refuses to claim; this, to bot, coming after days of stalling and missing opportunities.

Actually, town should often refuse to claim.

In any case, though, Nik, I really need to hear something useful from you. A defense, a case against someone, what you think about one of the other people, who you think we should lynch today, ect. Right now, I'm willing to see you lynched mostly because you have yet to really do anything all game, Nik.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, town should often refuse to claim.

Oh yeah? Give me one instance other than SUPERSAINT or supersaint-like roles, where that holds.

Well, for one, my mafia theory for a long time has been a vanilla townie should usually refuse to claim and just defend himself instead, on the grounds that a vanilla claim generally does not help the town at all, gives the town no useful information, will not help prevent a lynch, and generally just helps the scum.

There are times a vanilla claim is useful, but for the most part, it's better to not bother.

[Yosarian2]

Vanilla should not claim??? I have never, EVER saw this applied in practice. You are lynched, it's twilight, you say: "well you idiots didn't give me a chance to claim but I'm vanilla."

Post lynch is a little different.

But before lynch, there's nothing to be gained by claiming vanilla.

As for "applied in practice"; you'd probably have a hard time finding a game when I ever claimed when vanilla. I think the last time I did was in a game when someone claimed tracker and claimed he saw me go somewhere when I was actually a vanilla townie, and that was years ago.

Furthermore, I have often reversed my reads on a player claiming vanilla if they sound honest going down. I strongly disagree. Vanillas should continue to claim vanilla. That's completely absurd. I never heard of that.

Eh, it's a theory I've been pushing a long time now, and a lot of people on this site agree with me these days; there's been a bunch of MD threads about the subject. Here's one:

viewtopic.php?t=2872

[Yosarian2]

That's from 2006, a necro'd thread that's 4 years old, and it obviously hasn't seeped into people's consciousness.

There are half a dozen other threads about the same subject on the MD forum, if you look back. And it certainly has seeped into people's consciousness, at least as far as people who regularly discuss strategy on MD go.

Anyway, if this really is a no-reveal game, then that obviously changes everything; in a no-reveal game, getting a claim is obviously more important.

When your CLAIM TIME has come, there is NOT DOWN SIDE to claiming vanilla. None. You can say: "well, here's my claim, I'm vanilla, so no huge disaster here."

In a normal game, there is no advantage to claiming vanilla. No one should ever be more willing to lynch person X because of a vanilla claim then because of a refusal to claim.

In fact, pretty much the worst thing for the town is to run someone up, they claim vanilla, and then the bandwagon falls apart and someone else gets wagoned to a claim. That's how pro-town power roles get found.

Generally speaking, I would be much more likely to unvote someone who hasn't claimed instead of someone who's claimed vanilla, because you want to avoid a situation where there's multiple people around who've claimed vanilla and are still alive. Of course, if I think a person's town, that generally overrides everything else.

You don't flat out refuse to claim. That's ridiculous.

Refusing to claim is better for the town then claiming vanilla, 95% of the time.

You don't lynch someone who refuses to claim, unless you would also lynch them if they claimed vanilla. No one should do that, it's just bad play.

And SenFan: ". If you refused to claim, you would be lynched, so you might as well claim."

That's not what pro-town people should do, though. Lynching people just because they refused to claim is bad play.

Anyway, this whole theory discussion is irrelevant here, since we all agree Nik is scummy for other reasons. If it dosn't look like CSL is going to be lynched, then Monday night I'll move over to the Nik wagon.

[Yosarian2]

Theory aside. in

THIS GAME

... claiming is a pro-town thing to do, i think. Especially post-hammer. If you subscribe to the idea that a well-informed town is a victorious town, that is. Which I do.

That said.. I am willing to follow Yos on a CSL wagon if we cannot reach consensus re: Nika.
I DREAM of Drip-town, camn-town and Yos2-town all playing in concordance..... so if we 3 can come to an agreement, that would help my dream come true.

It's unfortunate then that I think we're playing with Yosscum. (Elli here).

Excuse me? Where did that come from?

If Nik is scum and CSL is town, then Drip is probably town. If Nik is town and CSL is scum, then Drip is probably scum.

[Yosarian2]

In this case specifically, having only posted 4 times before being lynched, I probably wouldn't care too much, as I had no time invested in the game. There's no point being pissed off, and I genuinely think that was Nikanor's attitude, especially after reading his thread about twilight talk.

We'll be testing your reactions tomorrow. You may want start preparing that fakeclaim with your buddies now.

@ Yosarian. NOW you're bringing up that this game is no-reveal? How on Earth could you support Nikanor not claming, with that knowledge?

If the game is no-reveal, then Nik certanly should claim. I don't see anything in the game rules saying that it is, and I still going on the assumption that it's not a no-reveal game until someone gives me a reason to think otherwise.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, this whole theory discussion is irrelevant here, since we all agree Nik is scummy for other reasons. If it dosn't look like CSL is going to be lynched, then Monday night I'll move over to the Nik wagon.

Yos, can you tell me what you think about the bandwagon that run Nikanor up to fake-lynch? Is it scum/town motivated?

Eh, I think that the Nik bandwagon is based on reasonable tells and good reasoning, for the most part, along with a dash of the hyper-aggressive play that town needs to do in a speed game like this. Plus, as I've said, I haven't seen any real scumhunting from Nik yet, and that alone makes him a reasonable lynch.

[Yosarian2]

Hey I thought you said this is a no-reveail game?

I don't see anything in the game rules saying that it is, and I still going on the assumption that it's not a no-reveal game until someone gives me a reason to think otherwise.

Also, I really hope it's not. No reveal games suck.

If Nikanor is NON-MAFIA (SK, third-party, town), then the players defending him like the whole game hinges on Nikanor's survival (Yos and Clergyhoop) are scum.

DEFENDING him? What game are you reading? I've been attacking Nik all day, I think he's a good lynch, and I've already said I'm willing to lynch him.

The players tunneling on CSL vig-meat as a lynch candidate (except Parama who put himself on the line by hammering Nikanor and vows to tunnel on Clergyhoop tomorrow) also earn some hefty scumpoints.

Every time you try to say "don't worry about lynching the obv-scum CSL, a vig will take care of him" the odds of you being scum go up, because no town should EVER say that; relying on a vig that may or may not exist is just a horrible strategy.

[Yosarian2]

Parama, please explain how CWAH is a better lynch than MaB. Please.

Massive defending of confirmed scum?

I wasn't aware that I should be putting a strong defense together of a pitiful attempt for (most likely) a scum lynch right off the bat. Anything I say at this point will look overly defensive, and in a sense I'll only be digging my grave. Does anyone care to point out exactly why they're targeting me, or is this how all quick games go on this site? (Serious question, by the way.) Nachomamma, please explain why I'm a good lynch to begin with?

I don't like the "I don't want to defend myself because I'll look defensive" thing. That seems a bit scummy to me.

I would agree that town has won by me being lynched? lolwut.

Nonono, we have to lynch/vig your buddies too.

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

vote: Drippereth

You keep ignoring my questions, and you're being extremely pushy on what basis?

This post is worse.

I really hate that you're voting Drip just because Drip is attacking you. What do you think about Drip's play yesterday, and the fact Drip was really the driving force all day behind the Nik scum lynch? Do you really think Drip is likely scum here, or are you just voting him because you don't like being attacked?

Anyway,

Vote:Clergyhoop

for now, wouldn't mind lynching MAB either.

Also, now that we know it's not a no-reveal game and Ythan wasn't breadcrumbing or anything, he's got some serious explaining to do. Between his rolefishing yesterday, all that "no-reveal" talk, and his odd behavior towards the Nik wagon, Ythan is currently my third suspect, after Clergy and MAB.

[Yosarian2]

It is a possibility. I doubt it, but it is nonzero.

The second half, after the comma. First is a given.

Yos, that no reveal stuff was the words in italics in camn's early posts. You can check for yourself.

Ah, so instead of it being misinformation of your part, what it actually was was yet another attempt at rolefishing on your part. Gotcha.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah no. I was asking her about it and she was being elusive.

You thought you saw3 a coded message in her posts, so you asked her about it. that=rolefishing.

It wasn't as bad as when you flat out asked Drip if he was a vig, that was terrible, but it defiantly fits the same pattern.

[Yosarian2]

No I said Drip was a vig.

And saying that was either a bad mistake, or scummy rolefishing.

Yosarian is accusing you of rolefishing, while rolefishing himself.

That dosn't even make sense. How am I rolefishing?

[Yosarian2]

That doesn't even make sense. How am I rolefishing?

It would make sense if you paid attention. Now don't worry. Everything is under control.

Dude, we already know you're town. Now stop getting in the way and let Ythan answer his own questions. He's a big boy.

You know who needs some scrutiny? SpyreX. Have you iso'd him? It's fun.

Yeah, I got a bit weirded out by his "Clergy defended scum so therefore Clergy is town" wifom defense post. That tell would be dependent on clergy's alignment, but if Clergy flips scum, SpyreX is a likely buddy.

[Yosarian2]

Answered you Yos. Got something else to say?

Well, there's really no good reason to say something like that as town. If you're town, and you think someone is vig, then by saying that you're both telling that to the scum and you're revealing to the scum that you're not a vig.

On the other hand, if you're scum and you want to know if someone is a vig, then saying so like that to get a reaction is a good way to rolefish.

You're "It didn't mean anything and it didn't go anywhere" defense is weak; just because it didn't work dosn't mean you weren't trying to rolefish.

[Yosarian2]

I didn't actually think he's a vig. It was a joke. If you want to keep pushing it go ahead but you have your answer.

"It was a joke" as a defense dosn't actually change anything either; pro-town people shouldn't joke about that kind of thing for obvious reasons, scum can as a way to get people to slip and reveal their roles.

[Yosarian2]

Some less obvious defences than screaming in thread to derail the lynch:

How could you say that, and then quote two posts where I attacked Nik?

quote="Yos2 while voting CSL"]Meh, at the moment, I wouldn't be too unhappy with either a Nik or a CSL lynch. Nik has yet to give me any reason to think he's town. I don't know why everyone is so eager to let CSL survive the day without even trying to explain his incredibly scummy and anti-town behavior, though, and I really don't think CSL should survive the day unless he at least tries to start making sense. The way people seem to be leaping in to try to stop him from getting lynched without giving any good reason for it just makes me want to kill CSL more.

In any case, though, Nik, I really need to hear something useful from you. A defense, a case against someone, what you think about one of the other people, who you think we should lynch today, ect. Right now, I'm willing to see you lynched mostly because you have yet to really do anything all game, Nik.

[/quote]

The first post, I say I wouldn't mind seeing Nik lynched. The second post, I repeat that, and attack Nik for never giving useful content (which, in a speed game, is pretty much the best tell there is.) There was also a third post where I clearly state that, while I would have rather seen CSL lynched, I was going to hammer Nik on Monday night if he didn't give me a clear reason why not to.

I had 2 main suspects all day yesterday, and I was right about one of them. I was attacking Nik from his first scumtell on like page 2 or something, and I was right. You were attacking me all day yesterday BECAUSE you hated my attacks on Nik and you were insisting he was town, and now you're going to try to attack me because you think i wasn't attacking him enough or something?

Yeah, that's BS.

The two who were pushing CSL the most were Yos2 and Para.

Yup. I'm still amazed CSL flipped town, I don't know how that's possible.

They both take very non-commital views on Nikanor, and have that "Nikanor is an ok lynch but I'm not going to vote him because look over here, this guy is MORE scummy" type of attitude.

False. I WAS voting Nik for most of the day, and only switched to CSL when he acted in an absurdly scummy way. And I always made clear that I was still suspicious of Nik, and was only voting CSL because he looked even worse.

I think I'm going to

Vote Yos2

, with suspicious glaces at Para in second place and the others mentioned rounding out the pack.

And this is clearly a pre-emptive OMGUS. You're voting me because it's clear I'm leaning towards voting you. All of your other reasons are obviously untrue, and I'm pretty sure you know that.

You know what, forget it.

Vote:Clergy

I've given you enough chances to explain yourself, and every time you post you just make less sense then the last. Die scum die.

[Yosarian2]

Kise won't be on till later so I can't discuss my thoughts with him before I post. I will say that we really really really really want an Ythan lynch, and would be totally okay with a Parama lynch as well. We were shocked Nik flipped scum, but that wagon was really weak and a matter of luck.

:eyebrow:

what makes you think the wagon on Nik was weak or "a matter of luck"? I thought he was pretty consistantly scummy on day 1.

[Yosarian2]

Considering the italics - care to comment on Dramonic or the less than 10 posts squad?

Yeah, I agree with you that we can't let people lurk.

Who else is lurking right now?

[Yosarian2]

And, I'm caught up. Man, that last 4 pages is pretty much the least informative 4 pages ever.

Ythan, you posted like 5 billion times without really saying anything. It's kind of frustrating.

But I assure you there's enough for me to go on for a full-fledged case. I'm just too lazy to do it.

Are you serious. If Parama survives the day can a vig please take care of this.

Are you seriously attacking Para for saying "let's lynch clergy" without making a case, when you've been doing the exact same thing for the past 4 pages to the new replacement?

Seriously, people. Don't spam and say "let's lynch X" 500 times, it's just annoying. Take the same time you're all wasting on spam and and make an acutal case, with quotes and arguments for why those quotes are scummy and such.

[Yosarian2]

Are you seriously attacking Para for saying "let's lynch clergy" without making a case, when you've been doing the exact same thing for the past 4 pages to the new replacement?

You get that a replacement fills the same role as his predecessor?

Hay look, more useless spam. How helpful.




Yes, Ythan, if MaB was scum, then so is his replacement. Which is why you should sit back and make a case for them being scum, with quotes and explanations and stuff, instead of just spamming up the thread with dozens of useless one-line posts that say nothing.

[Yosarian2]

If anyone's made a useless post here I think it's a certain someone else. If you want me to reiterate my case at the top of every page or something so you can see it more easily I'll think about accommodating, but don't be so pushy about it if you haven't even asked. It's back there already and not too hard to find.

Ythan, this is the "case" you made:

MaB iso

0 You want RVS to be as big a waste a time as possible?
1 I don't see this request following from slow loading times.
5 So you're useless and we should kill you instead of a contributing potential townie?
6 So you're useless and we should kill you instead of a contributing potential townie?
8 Deflecting the case on you by pointing out that Nik pushed against you is scummy.
9 Yes there's a wagon on you and for good reason.
11 They very well could, when stacked up with your idiotic actions.
13 Pitiful attempt? Die scum.

affirm vote

That's not a case. You completely failed to point out anything that he did that was scummy, or if you did you didn't do so in a way that makes any sense to me.

Since then, you've posted something like 55 more times, and over and over again you kept saying "I've alraedy made my case against Pulindar". The fact is, you haven't. I really have no idea at all why you suspect him, and I'm honestly not sure if you know why either.

Why are you so reluctant to explain your suspicions here, Ythan?

[Yosarian2]

That is hardly all I've been saying over the past 55 or so posts. More to the point, if you don't find his history suspicious then don't vote for him?

I actually do find his play suspicious, and I've said so. That's irrelevent here; I want YOU to explain yourself here.

But going into how those things are suspect shouldn't I think be necessary in-game.

How what things are suspect? I don't even know what "things" you find suspicious about his play. You babbled something about the random voting stage and something about how "defelcting the wagon on you by saying Nik was attacking is scummy" (which is just a terrible argument, btw), and that's it.

Not for me anyway, and it's my vote I'm backing up.

Wait, what?

The point of making a case is A. to convince other people, B. to get a response so you can read the person better, and C. so other people can read you.

Again, like you said, this is kind of how mafia is supposed to work. You refused to explain yourself to the replacement, and now you're refusing to explain yourself to me.

You're the one who's so convinced he's scum, and you clearly have huge amounts of time on your hands; why is it that you're incapable of quoting a few posts of his and saying "These posts are scummy because of X"?

[Yosarian2]

Welp.
You're calling me out for posting without saying anything whilst doing twice that yourself.
You're calling me out on a lack of a case when your MaB/Pulindar case is even weaker. (Plus, you never really gave evidence)

Everything about your post is wrong. I'm

not

calling you out for posting without saying anything. My case is

not

weaker than yours because do you even have a "case"?

:eyebrow:

You attacked Para because, and I quote:

No I'm just going to continue to push the case that (among other things) you're not backing up your own cases.

So why are you so unwilling to back up your own cases, Ythan?

[Yosarian2]

How what things are suspect? I don't even know what "things" you find suspicious about his play. You babbled something about the random voting stage and something about how "defelcting the wagon on you by saying Nik was attacking is scummy" (which is just a terrible argument, btw), and that's it.

Iso I posted about him.

That's really all you're going to do, is again reference that terrible ISO I just quoted without explaining your thought process at all, huh?

And if you want to get specific about how that's not a good argument I'd love to hear your case that there's nothing wrong with his "I'm not scum the scum attacked me" defense. It's deflection, and deflection is deflection.

No, it's not "deflection", actually. It's a defense. Deflection would be "supporting another bandwagon to derail your own", and that might be scummy, depending. Defending yourself isn't scummy.

Wait, what?

The point of making a case is A. to convince other people, B. to get a response so you can read the person better, and C. so other people can read you.

Again, like you said, this is kind of how mafia is supposed to work. You refused to explain yourself to the replacement, and now you're refusing to explain yourself to me.

Actually did explain myself to the replacement. Explained plenty far enough.

You explained what an ISO is and what the numbers mean. You completly failed to make a case, though.

You're the one who's so convinced he's scum, and you clearly have huge amounts of time on your hands; why is it that you're incapable of quoting a few posts of his and saying "These posts are scummy because of X"?

Technically, there's no reason to think I have more time but only that I'm using it more thoroughly (arguable but eh). More to the point, that was what my iso was for and do you really want me to go into more detail over it?

YES, I DO WANT YOU TO GO INTO MORE DETAIL ABOUT WHY YOU THINK HE IS SCUMMY. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE.

Ythan, if you are a pro-town person and convinced person X is scum, you should be GLAD to go into as much detail as necessary to explain why person X is scum and to get everyone else to follow you. I don't know why it feels like I'm pulling teeth here to get you to make a case, but it's frustrating.

[Yosarian2]

0 You want RVS to be as big a waste a time as possible?

Not scummy. Still felt like saying it.

1 I don't see this request following from slow loading times.

Still don't. Not terribly significant but I don't see how it's any easier to wait for someone else to frame the thread for you so you don't have to do any work. Any easier on your searching anyway, certainly makes it easier to blend it.

Ok, so these 2 points are pretty meaningless.

5 So you're useless and we should kill you instead of a contributing potential townie?

He as good as said it himself.

6 So you're useless and we should kill you instead of a contributing potential townie?

Here too. He's pretty much just wriggling out of responsibility to do anything pro-town.

Now that I go back and find those posts, this is reasonable. I agree, he wasn't doing enough, and I especially don't like hte way he didn't want to comment on the Nik wagon. I wish you had quoted the posts like I asked you, since then I would have figured out what you were trying to say a while ago.

8 Deflecting the case on you by pointing out that Nik pushed against you is scummy.

This one is pretty plain. He says that he's not scum because Nik attacked him rather than touching the accusations.[/b

Ok. How is that scummy?

9 Yes there's a wagon on you and for good reason.

Not terribly meaningful but neither is the "Looks like I have votes on me" post he made.

Ok, meaningless.

11 They very well could, when stacked up with your idiotic actions.

Yes a case against you can include your buddy's "idiotic actions" as he first put it. Deflection.

It's a bad defense, but it's still not "deflection".

13 Pitiful attempt? Die scum.

Still rather than address the case just calls it pitiful.

Ok, so again, not a scumtell.

So, yeah; you didn't make much of a case here. The only valid points you made were 5 and 6, and that was just lack of content. You could have made a strong case, you just...didn't. I was trying to figure out why you think he's scummy, and I'm still confused.

If you're just going to keep saying you don't like my case then expect me to just not give a shit. I've posted plenty of evidence for myself and unless you're going to actually address a specific point there's nothing to argue apart from how much you like it.

Where the hell did that come from?

I was just pointing out that it would have been better if you'd made a case, given some evidence, and explained why you were so tunneled on him. I don't know why you've made such a big deal about this...

[Yosarian2]

Nor do I know why you've made such a big deal out of this.

Basically, if I'm town and I'm trying to lynch someone, and someone else comes in and asks me why, I'm glad to have the chance to make my case and explain myself, and try to make clear to everyone why person X is scum and needs to die.

Your response has been "I've already explained why he's scum, I don't need to explain it again", and you kept repeating that even in the face of multiple people who either didn't agree you had already explained yourself or didn't understand your explanation. I find that to be really strange. Part of me is wondering if you were trying to make a huge deal about voting him but didn't really want to convince anyone else to follow you for some reason.

[Yosarian2]

...
1.) @Yos: While I agree with what you're saying in regards to Ythan's "case" I'm missing the point - do you think he's scum? Is there something behind it?

I think it's possible. His behavior on the Nik wagon yesterday was a little odd. He's not one of my top suspects at the moment, but he is someone I would like to get a better read on.

[Yosarian2]

Alrighty, now that that is out of the way, there's lots of little pissy fights here. If we can't look at people who were surrepticiously delaying the Nikanor wagon (hint: Yos2 explaining what Nik should do to erase suspicion on him totally counts, as does pushing a confirmed VI VT over a confirmed scum)

If I'm ATTACKING someone, I'll pretty much always explain why I'm attacking them; and if one of the reasons I'm attacking someone is that they haven't contributed enough, I'll always tell them to contribute more. That's generally the pro-town way to act. The fact that Nik was unwilling to do so even when I pressured him to do so was one of the main reason I was planning to hammer him Monday night, like I said.

I'm sure you already know that I spent most of the day yesterday trying to get Nik lynched, only moved over to CSL when he acted in a way that was unbelievably anti-town, and was always willing to lynch Nik if the CSL lynch didn't happen. They way you're trying to spin my behavior into a defense on Nik is pretty absurd, and I really doubt you believe what you are saying here.

[Yosarian2]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but DGB, how do you know that the NK failed? o.o

I still say that that Nik attack was a bus.

Who do you think bussed Nik, Mae?

[Yosarian2]

Yos I'd like your insight on MaB/Pulidar vs. Clergyhoop.

I think both are scum, they are too scummy for words. We should pick one for the lynch, and the other for the vig. What do you think?

Clergyhoop is scum.

MaB looked really scummy; I'm actually not as certain about their alignment after Pulidar's posts.

[Yosarian2]

One death. CSL. Unlikely scum. A game of this size would unlikely have a single NK when combining: (1) dim probability of multiple scumteams; (2) vigs and (3) SKs. Also, read the scum QTs in Kingdom Hearts where being a miller afforded me some unexpected longevity; all the scums have vowed to make sure I be very dead by Day 2 in all future games. My DGB title is "mafia pinata" for a reason. So in all probability I was the NK and it failed.

Mmm. Yeah, it's certainly possible CSL was killed by a vig.

The other possibility is that the scum were defending CSL yesterday and wanted him dead and town so they could both get credit for that and discredit the people attacking CSL yesterday. Which exactly matches Clergy's play today.

[Yosarian2]

In theory that's possible. In practice, that's the weirdest reason for scum to NK a player in the history of the universe.

Granted. It probably was a vig kill. That's just the only possible motive I could come up with for it being a scum kill.

Second, no one has even mentioned that players should gain or lose credit for CSL's death.

Not for his death, but if CSL wasn't confirmed town, Clergy wouldn't have been able to make this attack:

imho, I think scum saw CSL as a chance to get a mislynch. The other wagon was a probably town-fuelled charge that happened to hit scum, so they needed a targetto switch suspicion to and quick. CSL was the best choice, because he looks so filthily scummy.

The two who were pushing CSL the most were Yos2 and Para.

Note that me and para were both people who highly suspected Clergy, and that Clergy would want to discredit.

Meh. As I put this on paper, I'm actually realizing it's even more flimsy a theory then I thought before, heh. I guess we should assume it was a vig kill until we have reason to believe otherwise.

[Yosarian2]

For the record, KMD, while I thought Nik was probably scum, I was a bit relieved myself to see that he didn't actually get quickhammered without having a chance to claim, especally since the way CSL tried to do it made me think CSL was scum.

[Yosarian2]

Well, if Clergy is scum, then para is defiantly town. And I think Clergy is scum.

[Yosarian2]

I understand that your interpretation of Para is dependent upon your interpretation of Clergy. Is the opposite true as well?

Huh? No, my assessment of Clergy as scum has nothing to do with anything Para's said.

[Yosarian2]

(anything other than VT would be a fake claim by me)

...did you seriously just claim VT when you were nowhere near a lynch?

Did you really miss my long diatribe this game on why it's anti-town for any vanilla townie to ever claim vanilla, under almost any circumstances? And it's especially bad since you weren't in any imminent danger of being lynched?

Generally, once someone claims vanilla, the town pretty much has to either lynch them or vig them.

[Yosarian2]

(anything other than VT would be a fake claim by me)

...did you seriously just claim VT when you were nowhere near a lynch?

Did you really miss my long diatribe this game on why it's anti-town for any vanilla townie to ever claim vanilla, under almost any circumstances? And it's especially bad since you weren't in any imminent danger of being lynched?

Generally, once someone claims vanilla, the town pretty much has to either lynch them or vig them.

Now can you vote for Pulindar?

Well, except for the little problem that Clergy is obvscum who needs to die today.

[Yosarian2]

Though I will say I don't understand your reasoning? O I mean I get that I will probably be lynched, but I don't get why someone claiming VT needs to be lynched/vigged

You don't really want to have a lot of people claiming vanilla to pressure and then surviving; that helps the scum find the power roles.

[Yosarian2]

Ythan, you're not making any sense at all here.

[Yosarian2]

unvote vote dramonic

You guys really think lynching the claimed investigative role is the right move here?

[Yosarian2]

He's the only claimed role - an information role - if the scum haven't killed him, I would expect that they would roleblock him.

That would be a strong argument, except the scum apparently failed to kill last night, so who knows who they tried to kill.

[Yosarian2]

I'd still like to see Dramonic respond to this.

Remember that I had claimed "NOT VIG" so if Dramonic were scum, he knew he wouldn't be making a mistake if he said I don't have a gun.

That's pretty damning I think.

I really am interested in hearing what you were thinking with your choice, dramonic.

[Yosarian2]

Maybe you thought I was double-stuff WIFOM'ing a claim-non-claim.

If so, then claiming gunsmith with a "no gun" result for you would be the dumbest thing ever. Either you'd counterclaim and he'd be proven 100% wrong (since he just said you were innocent), or else you'd just shoot him.

Honestly, if I was a gunsmith, I'd probably be more likely to investigate someone who claimed "not vig". Less chance of a false positive. That being said, it's also obv a good move if he's lying scum.

Eh, I'm willing to wait and see what happens. We'll have more information to better assess the claim later.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos - what are you waiting for with Dram? A scum flip he's got a result on orrr?

Well, if he's lying, he has to fake a claim every day, which could get him caught if he's wrong or get him semi-confirmed if he nails a scum. And if nothing else, you can often figure out if a gunsmith claim makes sense or not when you do a late-game massclaim. That's not ideal at all if he is scum, of course, and if there's a really strong case on him I'd be willing to lynch him, but right now, I think watching and waiting

Anyway, I agree with camn. I'm not at all convinced by any of Ythan's cases.

The nacho wagon is better; he hasn't done anything to convince me he's protown, really.

[Yosarian2]

The nacho wagon is better; he hasn't done anything to convince me he's protown, really.

I assume since the second part of this sentence is after a semicolon and not a comma that it's a good wagon for you because he hasn't convinced you he's protown?

Yup.

Or, to be more specific, he hasn't really acted in a way that looks pro-town to me; none of his posts, I read them and think "Huh, that looks like town who's trying to find scum." Same reason I supported the Nik wagon day 1.

[Yosarian2]

Um

Yeah.

I was planning to do this tonight anyway, since the deadline's tommorow...

Vote:Nacho

[Yosarian2]

Let me take a different tack.

Vote:Weaboo

Defended Nik, has done very little this game, very little real scumhunting from them at any point. Really been flying under the radar.

[Yosarian2]

So, just because I don't really like the spy or dramonic wagons and instead am trying to find scum elsewhere, I'm scum, even though you agree with me about both wagons? What?

[Yosarian2]

I find you scummy for yesterday after Nacho claimed.

Yeah, that was a bad argument then, and it's a bad argument now.

Nacho was my main suspect for most of the day yesterday, primarally because he had not done any real scumhunting. I was planning to vote him that evening, since the deadline was going to hit the next day. I thought it was pretty funny when I got on intending to vote him and saw that he had already claimed scum and tried to say "Don't lynch me because I'm just the goon", lol.

I have no idea how you think my post "sounded so forced"; all I can say is that you're wrong, and it's fairly obvious you're wrong if you were paying attention to what I said earlier in the day.

Also, I'd hardly call the votes on Spy and Dramonic "wagons" right now. If you are thinking of it that way, I may have to rethink this because it reminds me of your play Day 1 in Quickness when Zach and Neto were both pretty close to a lynch and you went for netlava instead. Only there was more of a sense of urgency there [/Not bitter about Zach/Neto both being scum and your Netlava lynch being on town]

Lol. Yeah, yeah, I screwed up on day 1 of that game.

Anyway, yeah, I was thinking of them as wagons; not so much because of the number of votes on them, but because I think they're likely to be lynched.

I do have to say I agree with dripping goofball here that dramonic's claim seems less likely today then it did yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

The flavor analysis made me headdesk.

It's not exactly a "flavor argument". Mod listed kill methods are often mechanically a part of the game, and intended to be useful information. That's especially common in a game with a gunsmith.

KMD is right, it's possible Haylen is just defining gunsmith as "a role that can tell if player X is mafia, vig, or cop", but it's a reasonable argument. I can see a dramonic lynch today; mostly for mechanics reasons, like how he has yet to really produce any useful information with his claimed role. I could also see giving him one more chance to get something conformable with his role. Either option seems reasonable here.

[Yosarian2]

]These are the graves I have dug for you if you break my game. I spent a long time of this setup and on the flavor.

Consider this a warning.

Um...are we not allowed to examine the game's flavor or something to decide if a role is probable or not? Because that's pretty standard. I'm really confused what you're trying to "warn" us about here, Haylen.

Asking players to ask the mod things, whether the do or dont. ~ Hayl

[Yosarian2]

Got a bad feeling of the convo with Yosa2 in iso 6. Yosa2 suspicion feels forced and Nacho's response is less impressive:

How does my suspicion feel "forced"?

Yeah, Nacho was acting weird and generally useless, that was part of the reason I wanted to lynch him.

I'm also not really happy about you voting Spyrex just based on WIFOM pulled out of the posts of a dead scum. What do you think about Spyrex's play itself?

[Yosarian2]

Really not clear why Mae was lynched yesterday.

Ok, so, Para and Drip are confirmed to not have a gun (which dosn't 100% prove they're town, but I kind of thought they both looked town anyway0.)

I'm also still not feeling the Spyrex wagon. My main suspects are Anon and Weaboo.

Vote:Anon

[Yosarian2]

^^^

Spyrex's buddy has just spoken.

Oh, please. I know you don't believe that, dgb.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I'm sorry to say, but after reading Anon I think you're on my list of possibles as well. Also, your last post is kind of concerning. Could you please tell me why Anon and Weaboo are scum?

A lot of it is gut. Nothing Anon has done feels like real scumhunting; it all feels like a scum pretending to scumhunt.

Besides that, Anon has done pretty much no scumhunting all game, other then tunneling on Spyrex without any good reason. At least he voted for Nik, but he never actually gave a reason for his Nik vote, and he never even mentioned Nacho.

Hey, so far 2 of my 4 main suspects this game have been confirmed scum, so I'm doing pretty good with the scumhunting, and I also helped prevent the mislynching of Demonic, who was a town power role, and most likely one the scum failed to kill earlier this game. Why, exactly, am I on your "ist of suspect"?

[Yosarian2]

Wow. Just wow.

Nothing Anon has done feels like real scumhunting; it all feels like a scum pretending to scumhunt.

What gives you the impression Im "pretending" to scumhunt?

Eh. Like I said, it's gut. A bunch of your posts, specfically, feel off to me. Post 16 sounds like you're not looking for scum, you're looking for an excuse to lynch someone; it basically sounds like you don't like Pulindar's playstyle, you compare him to Mastin, and then somehow you want to lynch him. Your explanation for your pul vote in post 17 is a little better, but it still seems like a stretch.

Then, when you were attacking Clergy in your next several posts, it again dosn't look like scumhunting, because you never really made a case; instead, it just looks like you're trying to get them to claim.

I also dislike the way you were attacking Spyrex. DGB, I completly understand why she's attacking Spyrex; she's doing one of those vote analyis "there's always one scum on the wagon" things she always does, and while I've never been convinced that that actually works, I understand where she's coming from and it's why I'd expect from town DGB. You, though, I honestly don't understand why you think Spyrex is scum.

And I'm not happy with the way you voted Dramonic, WIFOM'd yourself in the next post, but kept your vote on him anyway, especally considering that scum would have had a huge motivation to try to lynch the claimed info role at that point.

Basically, there's a consistent pattern in your scumhunting all game here, and it's one I would expect from scum, not town.

- Lack of posts, content of posts, in comparison with other games where Ive read him as town.
- Buddying to clergyhoops and attacking dramonic for both doing basically the same thing: defending nikanor in day 1. Explained in my iso 9.
- Scummy connection with flipped scum nacho explained in my iso 45.
- Freaking meta.
- And this little piece of wagon analysis:

If we assume 4 scum, which is reasonable with 17 players then I think its extremely possible that there is 1-2 scum bussing and 1-2 scum out of the wagon and very likely defending Nikanor. Considering how fast the wagon went, if I had to guess, I would go with 1 scum bussing, 1 scum defending and 1 scum with no opinion.

In the lynch wagon:

camn

,

Anon, Drippereth

,

Maemuki

, McZombie,

CSL

,

Ythan

, Spyrex,

Parama.

Out of the lynch wagon:

Dramonic

, Weaboo,

clergyman

, kmd,

nacho

, yosa, miserableatbest.

Ok, that's reasonable. I really never like "wagon analysis" type stuff, I'm never been convinced that's any more reliable then, say, voodo.

Still, I really get a bad feeling from the rest of your play this game.

and he never even mentioned Nacho.

Bullshit x3:

Nachomann voting camn using competing wagon ftw is scummy as hell knowing the principal wagon was on scum.

Eh, damn it, I thought I fixed that line of the post. Should have said "Never even mentioned Nacho during the Nacho bandwagon". And you didn't, at least not until after he claimed scum.

So Yosa2, should we lynch you for bullshitting the thread with lies or you want to lrn 2 read before posting?

(grin) Touched a nerve, huh? Awesome, now perhaps we'll get somewhere here.

[Yosarian2]

@Anon

We're lynching SpyreX or Yosarian. Today.

Problem is, Anon is obviously scum, and I don't think he's bussing SpyreX here.

[Yosarian2]

Doing a re-read on SpyreX now. Sorry for the wall of text, but here are some key posts you guys probably want to look at:

I just want to cut to the chase on this whole madness:

Is the core of the Nik case that single statement?

CSL threw down that vote totally expecting it to be hammer.

Has everyone even POSTED yet?

Jesus game.

@Drippereth:

While what choo-choo'd this wagon up was pretty much wolves clamoring at your feet on very little...

I agree with your assessment about the potential hammer post and am willing to hammer.

I'd be surprised if (sans CSL as see below) there were any scum on that wagon too if this is a scum-flip. It was just too fast.

----

That said, I still want an explanation for CSL's "hammer" before 1.) nik could claim and 2.) before weeaboo had even posted.

That ain't gonna fly, yo.

Unvote

I'm not down with the clergy with that being a goon flip. No way is a hydra going to go down protecting a goon.

Camn, Drip, Clergy - town.
Panama - probably town.

That said:

Vote: Dramonic

...

5 pages of noise.

FIVE PAGES OF NOISE.

No. Just, no.

There are a few tidbits worth mentioning though:

1.) @Yos: While I agree with what you're saying in regards to Ythan's "case" I'm missing the point - do you think he's scum? Is there something behind it?
2.) @KMD: Its awesome and all that you're catching up (and wrong almost uniliaterally in your reads) but considering I forgot you were in the game lets go ahead and kick that up a notch.
3.) Camn is town. Fo sho.
4.) Anon gets some good vibrations.
5.) The spam needs to stop. Period.

Ohhh hay game.

Nothing like coming home after the longest day of meetings to see:

1.) Clergy being power-town
2.) Pulindur being power-town
3.) Dramonic twirling a mustache with "HAY LOOK I AM EVIL"

And... now I'm somehow scum if Clergy is scum AND if Dramonic is scum?

Awesome, folks.

Seriously, something like 12 pages in a day is not awesome. Especially this mad clamoring like deadline is looming - when, realistically, its not.

And I'm either scum for mystic voodoo OR "He's town, but could be scum playing me" from... everyone except for Clergy (who I am scum with).

Lets shake the dillo:

TOWN:
Drip
Clergy
Parlindur
Parama
Camn

PROBABLY TOWN:
Anon
Yos*

* If Ythan is scum then I could easily see this whole spat being smoke and mirrors - my individual read is town but that whole exchange is bizzare to say the least.

SCUM ARE HERE:
Dramonic

WHICH LEAVES:
Nacho
McZ
Mae
KMD
Weaboo
Ythan

Of that last set I'm the most irritated.

McZ needs replacing. Nacho is skating. Mae is white noise. Ythan is the god of white noise and its beyond ridiculous at this point. Weaboo is posting more about the white noise than anything else and KMD is stuck in perpetual catchup.

I'd kill this whole damn list and I'd bet on shaking 2 scum out of it. Probably Weaboo and Nacho although I'm really starting to think that Ythan might be up to some truly beautiful (and coached cough *yos* cough) white noise.

But, see, its not all bad. That list, that first one I posted? The list of "THESE PEOPLE ARE TOWN".

Yea. Those people are town. Stop slapfighting and, ya know, lynch dramonic.

Ohh hay game.

So, we've got a gunsmith that has checked Drip and Parama and got clean results on both.

And, for pretty sures, at least a kill that was blocked.

Yea, as much as I hate to do it, Razor suggests they took a shot on dram and got snuffed. Or, Dramonic and Parama are up to some amazing hijinks, which I doubt.

So, ffff.

We're looking at one of the lurkerpile then.

Vote: Nacho

Neah, I just don't see it, guys. I'm pretty sure SpyreX is town.

It's interesting that Anom is claiming SpyreX didn't do any scumhunting where I see better scumhunting just in there then in any of Anom's posts all game.

[Yosarian2]

Yes, like I proving you wrong in saying I hadnt scumhunted AT at ALL.

Well, you really haven't, in my opinion. You've attacked people, but like I just explained in significant detail, none of it looks like real scumhunting to me.

You going to respond to any of my actual points, or you just going to try to nitpick and stall for long enough for you to push through the SpyreX mislynch?

And now you saying that I have a consistent pattern in my scumhunting.

Yup. It's all fake, it all seems to be designed to mislynch rather then to find scum.

How is Spyrex better than me in the scumhunting department?

Heh. Funny timing, since I sumulposted the answer.

[Yosarian2]

What should I respond to you?

Want to respond to some of the specific points I made in 1474? Specifically:

Post 16 sounds like you're not looking for scum, you're looking for an excuse to lynch someone; it basically sounds like you don't like Pulindar's playstyle, you compare him to Mastin, and then somehow you want to lynch him. Your explanation for your pul vote in post 17 is a little better, but it still seems like a stretch.

Then, when you were attacking Clergy in your next several posts, it again dosn't look like scumhunting, because you never really made a case; instead, it just looks like you're trying to get them to claim.

And

And I'm not happy with the way you voted Dramonic, WIFOM'd yourself in the next post, but kept your vote on him anyway, especally considering that scum would have had a huge motivation to try to lynch the claimed info role at that point.

If you want to explain the scummy looking way you tried to lynch Pulindar based on his playstyle, or the way you spent several posts demanding Clergy claim without ever really making a case on them being scum, or the way you voted for Dramonic and then kept your vote on him even while "doubting" yourself, those would be helpful.

The only thing you responded to at all was the comments I made about your attacks on SpyreX, which are actually less important then the other reasons I find you scummy.

I cant help you if you dont think wagon analysis, meta analysys and dead scum analysys has found scum since day 0.

You haven't found ANY scum "since day 0".

I've found 2.

I also dont know how you magically have conluded Spyrex is town because of a bunch of posts. And specially that first one that in the context of the Nikanor wagon is scummy as hell.

(shrug) They're based on my person metal on SpyreX, on the fact that there's no way a scum-SpyreX would make those kinds of posts about Nik if Nik was really his scumbuddy, on the reasoning for his suspicion of Nacho, ect. I think his defense of Clergy was very logical and pro-town, and the kind of post I would expect from town-SpyreX based on his meta. Let's just say that I'd be quite surprised if SpyreX flips scum here.

Also, the reason I did it like that is because I'd really like to hear other people comment on SpyreX's actual play, rather then just silly "bandwagon analysis" stuff.

[Yosarian2]

Yosa2, please quote exactly your posts where you "found" Nikanor and Nachomamma with, I assume, the solid reasoning and arguments that you used to explain why these two were scum.

I could go on about this for a while, but let me make it simple. I wanted to lynch them both because neither one was doing any true scumhunting, which is the single most useful tell ever.

Right now, I'm willing to see you lynched mostly because you have yet to really do anything all game, Nik.

The nacho wagon is better; he hasn't done anything to convince me he's protown, really.

I assume since the second part of this sentence is after a semicolon and not a comma that it's a good wagon for you because he hasn't convinced you he's protown?

Yup.

Or, to be more specific, he hasn't really acted in a way that looks pro-town to me; none of his posts, I read them and think "Huh, that looks like town who's trying to find scum." Same reason I supported the Nik wagon day 1.

And now, I've caught you with the same tell.

It's amazing how well that works, isn't it?

[Yosarian2]

Except Ive been scumhunting.

Cut the crap, Yosa2. You are free to disagree with my scumhunting methods and yell all the hell you want "omg fake scumhunting", but I HAVE SCUMHUNTED.

(shrug) Town scumhunt. Scum look for excuses to vote for someone. From what I've seen of your play, it looks to me like you've just looked for excuses to vote for someone.

Even worse, did CSL ever scumhunt? Ythan? Maemuki? Dramonic? Were they all scum? Was even one of them scum?

Ythan sure did.

Mae certanly did, as well. Look at her attacks on Nik and CSL during day 1. It's true she became less active later in the game, which is frustrating, but I never really suspected her.

You're right, CSL didn't, and that's why I voted for him. (shrug) No scumtell is perfect, any possible scumtell is going to catch some town as well as some scum. The sign of a good scumtell is when it gets you significanlty more scum then random lynching would, and this one certainly does.

The reasons you used to vote your scumpartners Nacho and Nikanor ARE NOT conclusive at all.

Nice attempt to slip that in there.

But yes, failure to properly hunt scum is the best single sign of scum that there is. In normal situations, that's usually the biggest difference between town play and scum play. I don't know why more people don't get that.

You trying to paint them as conclusive and as the only reasons to explain how you "found" two scum is scummy as hell. As my little exercise proved, you never had solid reasoning,

SCUM DO NOT SCUM HUNT. Town scumhunt, scum don't; they sometimes pretend to, but unless they're playing a flawless game, it usually looks different.

How the hell is that not "solid reasoning"? How the hell is that "not a good argument"? It's sure as hell a lot more reliable and effective then whatever you've been doing all game.

nor good arguments that explained why these two were scum. And you accusing me of doing the same thing is just the cherry on the top.

I think our scumteam is found. GG.

So, I guess this rant means you're not even going to try to answer the logical, rational points I made about your play, right?

[Yosarian2]

Summery:

I repeated what I said yesterday, that I was suspicious of Anon.

He demanded an argument.,

I gave him one, in some detail.

He has since refused to answer the points in my argument, and instead has ranted, raved, and OMGUSed me.

I realize I'm fighting an upsteam battle since the two confirmed town people seem to believe him and suspect me for no reason I can figure out, but Anom is scum, and you can tell it just by the way he's defending himself.

[Yosarian2]

vote: Yosarian2

If SpyreX lying, oh well.
If he's not, best lynch is here.

What the hell? Based on what?

[Yosarian2]

Vote Yosarian2

...

Are you even reading the game here?

So god damned frustrating when I catch a scum, waste a stupid amount of time explaining why I think he's scum, he dosn't even feel the need respond, and no one apparently even seems to read my posts.

[Yosarian2]

Night 4: Yos went nowhere.

Confirmed.

[Yosarian2]

Though Yos coming in to "confirm" the report gives me bad vibes.

...what? When someone makes a claim like that, the first thing you want to do is to get everyone to either confirm that the claim is correct, or say that it is a lie. That's pretty much just standard operating procedure, isn't it?

Anyway, why are you still voting SpyreX? The odds of him making a claim like this as scum, with conformable or disconformable results, are incredibly low.

I notice Anon has vanished. Which is exactly what I'd expect him to do as scum; just not post after the claim, while keeping his vote on SpyreX. Because scum-Anon really wants to lynch SpyreX for the same reason he tried to lynch Dramonic earlier in the game; if there is something that prevented scum night kills (and there seems to be), either a doctor or a roleblocker or whatever, then scum HAVE to try to lynch claimed pro-town power roles during the day, because they can't do it at night.

I guarantee you that if SpyreX is town, which he pretty clearly is now, there is currently at least one scum on his wagon, or else he absolutely would have been hammered by now, especially after DGB's continued post-claim attacks on him would give any scum cover to do so. With both you and DGB mostly cleared, the scum can only be Anon or Pulindar, or possibly both.

The wagon on SpyreX was always based on very, very weak logic. And now he's a claimed and partly confirmed info role and he's still at lynch -1? No way this is for real. The wagon is scum backed, I'd bet money on it. Just like the scum pushed the Dramonic wagon, and for the exact same reason.

[Yosarian2]

Because scum-Anon really wants to lynch SpyreX for the same reason he tried to lynch Dramonic earlier in the game

- First I dont want to lynch Spyrex, at least for today. See optimal play above. And since when trying to lynch dramonic is a scumtell. Are you freaking serious?

I'm going to explain this one more time.

1. Dramonic claimed an info role.

2. That night, the scum failed to kill, which probably means they attemtped to kill him and failed.

3. The next day, I would expect scum to do whatever they could to lynch Dramonic; if he's an info role and he's getting doc protected or whatever and the scum can't nightkill him he's incredibly dangerous to them. YOu ever seen what a doc/cop pair does to a scum team?

4. So, yes, in that situation, trying to lynch Dramonic the next day is a scum tell, because that's what I would expect scum to do. There's no way there weren't at least some scum pushing the Dramonic wagon.

[Yosarian2]

I agree with Yos's number 4. If a town power role is a possible lynch, it seems obvious that scum are going to want to push that.

By the way, Yos is still the best lynch today.

I'm still waiting for you to give some kind of reason for that, KMD. Right now, I have to wonder if you're just voting me because you think I might be lynchable, possibly based on "hey, the two confirmed town people suspect Yos, I bet I can get him mislynched today." I haven't heard you give any reasoning for why you find me suspicious, that's for sure.

[Yosarian2]

I dunno about this. i agree that dramonic would've been an easy lynch for scum... but the risk N2 wasn't as great because if dram did manage to find one of the scum, that scum could claim vig, and the only way to really disprove this claim would be for the real vig to cc.

I really think your underestimating the power of an info role here.

A gunsmith, like a cop, dosn't even have to find scum to win the game. If he had just, say, cleared 2-3 more townies without dying, town pretty much autowins.

Basically, the scum HAD to get rid of him in order to win. Which probably either means lynching him, or at least throwing enough doubt on him so the doc dosn't protect him later.

I still don't think the maf shot at dramonic N2.

Why's that? As a claimed info role, he's the logical target for both scum and doctor, it makes perfect sense.

[Yosarian2]

If lynched, kills 2 people on the wagon IIRC. I think the last two votes on a wagon. Could hurt the town as much as helping it.
Of course we were never going to lynch Drip anyways so <____<

Generally it just kills the last person on the wagon, the hammer vote.

[Yosarian2]

I thought that was vengeful townie and Supersaint was like a double vengeful townie.
Meh.
Mafia has way too many roles <_<

I think the supersaint role comes from the 3 player mafia game of the same name.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=SS3

Anyway, before we get too sidetracked, I'm going to just say that Anon is still scum. Only reason I'm not voting him now is that I'm going to hold my vote until we get results from SpyreX, in the hopes that SpyreX caught us a scum.

[Yosarian2]

I think Yos and Pulindar are scum. Anon is still obvtown. Reck is probably town.

Anon is obvtown, Yos is prob scum. Just my opinions.

Town is probably going to lose this game and Anon-scum is probably going to win, because it looks like several people have made up their mind based on absolutely nothing and are absolutely unwilling to consider the possibility that they are wrong.

And I'm not sure what I can do about it at this point, because hardly anyone seems willing to re-consider, even though I think I've played really well this game, beacuse no matter how many times I've been right and either opposed town lynches or supported scum lynches people seem to think I'm scum "just because".

I'm so frustrated with this game at this point. If anyone wants to actually play mafia, has anything they actually want to discuss or question or try to figure out, let me know. Otherwise, have fun losing.

[Yosarian2]

^Very defeatist sounding for someone with no votes yet.

(shrug) Meh, I guess. It's just unbelievably frustrating when people don't listen to reason, and unless SpyreX caught a scum today, I just don't see this ending well.

Oh, I know much more about this game than you think.

Apparently not.

Quote tag fix ~ Hayl

[Yosarian2]

- First I dont want to lynch Spyrex, at least for today. See optimal play above. And since when trying to lynch dramonic is a scumtell. Are you freaking serious?

There must have been at least scum on SpyreX's wagon when he was at lynch -1 and claimed, and when DGB and others kept attacking him and thus giving scum cover to do so, or he would have been hammered. That is obvious. Therefore, either you or Pulindar must be scum, since the other two people on the wagon are confirmed.

I already explaine this yesterday, and you ignored me. If you were town, I'd expect you to be voting Pulindar right now, since at least one of you is scum, guarenteed.

I guarantee you that if SpyreX is town, which he pretty clearly is now

Why is Spyrex pretty clearly town now? He is far from being pretty clearly town now. SCUM FAIL.

Of course SpyreX is quite clearly town now. There's no way a scum who wasn't a tracker would be able to come up with a long list of people who didn't target anyone on given nights without knowing what their roles are. He did it again last night, and you haven't claimed either

It's just really unlikely he'd try to pull something like that off as scum, even less likely he'd get away with it.

I guarantee you that if SpyreX is town, which he pretty clearly is now, there is currently at least one scum on his wagon

ORLY?

YARLY

[Yosarian2]

Of course SpyreX is quite clearly town now. There's no way a scum who wasn't a tracker would be able to come up with a long list of people who didn't target anyone on given nights without knowing what their roles are. He did it again last night, and you haven't claimed either

It's just really unlikely he'd try to pull something like that off as scum, even less likely he'd get away with it.

The thing is, there is still a chance that SpyreX is in fact a scum tracker, and there is also a chance that SpyreX is a scum Rolecop who searched those people and found out that way.

How likely do you think either of those two possibilities are right now?

[Yosarian2]

I am officially confirming Anon town at this point. If he was scum along with one of the 3 I suggested tracking between (if he's scum that's 75% odds) then it's likely he would've sent in the kill instead of his partner.

Why would he send in the kill? You seem to be assuming that the scum would assume SpyreX would listen to you.

For the record, we are not massclaiming today. Definitely not.

No, of course we're not.

[Yosarian2]

In any case, if we're not lynching Anon today, then we're lynching Pulindar, because at least one of the two of them must be scum at this point.

Vote:Pulindar

[Yosarian2]

First he has never been convinced that that actually works but when he HAS to mislynch this annoying Anon and deflect the attention from his scummy ass, then SUDDENLY, oh, dear god, "one scum on the wagon" works.

No, "one scum on the wagon" dosn't work, in general. Don't be dense. It only works here because the scum needed to try to lynch town power roles, since they can't kill them, and there is no way they would have missed the chance to do so twice, especially when they could have easily gotten away with it both times.

[Yosarian2]

Why cant Spyrex be a scum tracker?

It's unlikely, because scum trackers are rare as hell, obviously.

SpyreX isn't "confirmed town", and I never said he is, but the odds of him being scum here are really, really small; at this point, I'd say he's less likely to be scum then anyone else in the game other then Para, and that's only because Para was confirmed town by a gunsmith.

[Yosarian2]

Why cant Spyrex be a scum tracker?

It's unlikely, because scum trackers are rare as hell, obviously.

SpyreX isn't "confirmed town", and I never said he is, but the odds of him being scum here are really, really small; at this point, I'd say he's less likely to be scum then anyone else in the game other then Para, and that's only because Para was confirmed town by a gunsmith.

Sure thing bro.

Supersaints, gunsmiths, but more importantly TOWN GODFATHERS are really common nowadays.

I may have missed the memo.

Gunsmiths are very common information roles. Supersaints are a little less common, but I've seen them in more and more setups recently.

You're right, town godfather is clearly an unusual role. I hardly think that proves there's a scum tracker, though; I haven't actually seen a scum tracker in any game for years.

In any case, I never thought there was a decent case for SpyreX even before he claimed, and now that he's a confirmed tracker, I really can't understand why people still are considering him a likely suspect.

[Yosarian2]

You morons just better lynch Anon tommorow when I flip town.

[Yosarian2]

And yes that goes for you Yosarian2 and Reckoner. Take your mistakes like men.

Dude, you pushed through an absolutly horrible and illogical mislynch on me pretty much just because didn't like that I was attacking you, even though the reasons I was attacking you were completely logical. You really have no right to be telling anyone else to "take your mistakes like men".

Anyway, good game, town. This is the first game that I've been on the site where I actually won despite being lynched, so good job, guys. The KMD lynch was especially impressive.

[Yosarian2]

Dont be an arrogant prick. Learn from your mistakes.

Funny, that's pretty much what I was going to say to you.

And, no, I didn't think SypreX was town because of his role claim. I thought I knew his meta. Apparently I was wrong. Of course, "Yos thinks SpyreX is town, and I think SpyreX is scum, so I'm going to lynch Yos" is just a terrible reason to do anything, in any case.