Mafia 102: No-Frills Game Thread(Town wins!)

[Sando]

/confirmered.

[Sando]

vote sando

yessssss...

Firsts are for the weak, it's last word that counts.

Vote: Mask Man

Mask/Crypto, why are we talking about roles within less than a dozen posts of the game starting?

[Sando]

Ok, personally, my initial reaction to the 'no-lynch' movement was 'what, no lynch is a terrible idea!!'. The more I thought about it, the more I could see the point, but I'm still not sold on it being broken for town. However, I'm very concerned with the lack of opposition it got until Crypto. While I can see the appeal, I would have expected at least some wariness regarding the plan.

Chance of Jailkeeper and Scum targetting the same person would seem to be 1/16, assuming they both submit that is. It would be 1 in 256 if it was to be on a specific person. But since there is a 100% chance that the jailkeeper protects someone, the odds are basically whether scum picks out the 1 person in 16 they chose.

If we no-lynch 3 times, scum have a 1/16 + 1/15 + 1/14 chance if hitting the cop. To me, looks like ~20% chance to hit the cop in one of the 3 nights.

I'm not really sure how discussion is bad, even if we were to no-lynch. We have 1 investigation, they have 1 kill, that we might be able to stop. The only downside to discussion is the idea that scum will work out who the cop is. Town on the other hand has 3 people to find, so better odds of them screwing up. Also, scum are looking for a townie acting townie, or cagey, or what? Town are merely looking for scum acting scummy.

We have a 'free' no-lynch, but this would get wiped out by the jail-keeper saving someone. Not sure would should use it now.

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 100):

CSL - 2(mask man, hiphop)
crypto - 1(EtherealCookie)
mask man - 1(Sando)
No Lynch - 3(SerialClergyman, CSL, Kaiveran)
hiphop - 1(charter)
SerialClergyman - 1(crypto)

Not Voting:le Chat, X_~, Staple, Team Aether, bigmc109, Pomegranate, muh316

crypto: I believe that your vote change was the only one on that page. Not much trouble at all.

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[Sando]

My point is that with lynching we are almost guarenteed to have 0 scum dead, and 100% guarenteed to have more townies dead than we could with POTENTIALLY no lynching.

This is wrong wrong wrong, to spout such fallacy seems pretty scummy, but could be noobie. Normally this sort of behavior and thinking is drummed out of people in their first game, so I'm leaning towards scummy.

You obviously didn't pay attention to the no lynching proposal, since you basically just agreed with it....

When he said "so even if by some miraculous means you can justify no lynching" he wasn't agreeing with it...

EC, seems REALLY scummy. His defenses suck, you would think he would be kind of upset that he is being attacked by pretty much everyone. Yet, EC tries to prove people wrong. FoS Etherealcookie

This is exactly how you'd expect town to act. You seem to be following along with 1 of the people attacking EC. Not sure whether you're following a scumbuddy or if you're opportunistically following a townie vote, but you certainly seem scummy following along like this.

If I was in EC's place I would at least have FoS'ed back or just called you guys stupid for concentration on me and not the real scum. But he hasn't. Everyone is scum until proven otherwise, EC hasn't done this.

So in his place you'd OMGUS them, then set out to prove everyone else wrong... kind of like what you said was scummy of him to do, righto.

Vote:X_~

[Sando]

Way to completely generalize an entire group of people. I have to say, I missed it before, but this combination of quotes is very scummy.

What is scummy about it? If you think No-Lynching is scummy, then people voting for no-lynching are pretty much by definition scummy to you.

Please ask me some questions so I can prove to you that I am in fact a townie

This isn't how you 'prove' you are townie. Your actions must speak for themselves, also, what are we meant to question you on? Are we meant to just ask 'are you town' and trust the answer?

2) Look at people's sigs before you accuse them of being inactive.

Pretty sure you were accused of posting in other threads while ignoring this one, not of being inactive.

Other things: When people quote people, say who you're quoting, blank quotes make your posts nightmares to read.

Also, is it just me, or are these rundowns on everyone completely useless to everyone else?

[Sando]

Which is, of course, irrelevent unless I'm inactive. Someone who is active and posting in other threads is fine, I assume. So my problem was with the fact I was called inactive at all for not posting in thread for a couple of days at a non-critical juncture on D1. Wouldn't you agree, sir 3 content posts in 6 days?

It's not irrelevant. While I don't really care, especially in D1, people obviously do care when you post in other threads yet conspicuously avoid this one. Note the difference between me and you in this thread, you posted more than me and are accused of avoiding posting, I posted less and am not. The difference is that I'm not off posting in other threads while not posting here.

So no, it's not irrelevant, at least not to some people. You know as well as anyone that it is scummier to be actively lurking, ie be around but not post unless forced to, than to just be inactive. Passing active lurking off as not scummy because you're not technically inactive is a very weak argument.

[Sando]

Yep, bandwagon on Staple looks incredibly opportunistic. Muh has gone from posting very little, and even less of that content, to jumping all over the Staple wagon. I'm with Emp on this one, looks scum led.

Unvote, Vote: Muh316

Mask man not committing to a vote while his target is acting scummy independently, and at the same time seeming to refuse to answer his questions, strikes me as pretty scummy. If I want someone to answer my questions and they won't, I'll vote them, not show them that I won't vote them until they answer me, there-by creating no pressure.

Hi Rayfrost FTMFL = For The Mother-F****ing Lose just FYI. I also feel positively ancient now at 24

[Sando]

What? A townie should never defend someone else?

The best way to find scum is to analyse their arguments and find faulty logic within it. If someone makes a faulty argument against someone else, I'm going to point it out. To merely analyse the attacks on yourself limits your scumhunting abilities to a huge extent.

I'm still happy with my vote on Muh, Bigmc has at least put his arguments out there and on the line, Muh seems to be sitting back and letting things happen, not really getting involved since he's been called out on his vote. Oh, and as for him becoming more active since being asked to, being active and jumping on the first and most opportune candidate are different things.

[Sando]

You want me to vote the person defending their position, actually scumhunting, if opportunistically in my opinion, over someone who lurks, is forced to post, jumps on the best looking bandwagon, then stops posting again once he gets called out on that?

Telling me to bus though... that was smooth buddy.

Think about what you just said. Isn't there a difference between defending someone and attacking someone for their argument?

Attacking the arguments for being faulty is exactly how you defend either yourself or someone else. If the argument is not faulty, there's normally a good reason, and that person typically gets lynched.

I'm attacking your arguments on Charter (I assume, I didn't actually check who, your argument was just silly). If I show that your arguments are faulty, there are by definition less arguments saying they are scummy than before. This sounds like a defence to me.

Without attacking someones arguments, and without various other scumtells like OMGUS and deflecting, how would you suggest you defend yourself or someone else?

[Sando]

Sando - don't tell me I touched a nerve, did I?

What are your thoughts about bigmc's alignment?

Sorry dude, that's not the spot, I've heard you struggle with finding the spot though, so I'll forgive you.

Bgmc, quite possibly scum, certainly up there, I just tend to like the fact that he's talkative, prepared to defend his position. I think that his attack on Staples was opportunistic, ie scummy. However, the fact that he's prepared to defend that position and not back down makes me think it was less opportunistic and more thought out than I initially thought.

Muh on the other hand... What do you think of Muh, who doesn't post much to the point where he's basically forced to post, jumps on the best looking BW, then shuts up again?

Why is Bigmc better than Muh?

[Sando]

Post 363

Unvote, Vote: Muh316

Post 398

Yes, muh is looking pretty bad, and if Staple flips town, I'll definetely be voting muh tomorrow.

And then you chose to vote muh instead of bigmc which earns you provisional scummy points.

Wanna rethink that one there champ, or would you rather keep making up your own timeline? You’re not stupid, a misrep like that doesn’t look like an honest mistake to me. Or would like to keep claiming that I voted Muh after Bigmc posted setting up a second lynch?

I voted Muh before Bigmc did what you think was scummy, I don’t think Muh has done anything to remove my vote, Bigmc has been posting, scumhunting etc. I want my vote on Muh for reasons previously stated.

[Sando]

Bigmc and mug both make opportunistic and scummy attacks, but then bigmc says if staple
flips town he'll go after muh. Super scummy points to bigmc and if that's true then provisional townie points to muh. And pom came out in favour of bigmc, so add that to the list. And charter is in favour of a bigmc lynch and seems very town to me.

And then

you chose to vote muh instead of bigmc which earns you provisional scummy points.

When you say "and then" it means you're saying that I did that after what you'd previously mentioned. I've shown that the major point you have against Bigmc happened after my post, and I believe the rest did as well. You implied that I only did it after everything else you mentioned.

I'm not claiming you voted muh after bigmc set up the second lynch. I'm claiming that you had (have) a direct choice between the two and you chose (and are still voting) the wrong one (in my eyes.)

Given my reasoning at the moment puts scumbigmc trying to chainlynch townmuh after townstaple, the fact that you continue to push for muh's lynch over bigmc makes you scummy by default.

So you're categorically saying that Muh is town? Or are you saying that your reasoning is so awesome that anyone not toeing the line is by default scum?

Given that I've said that I find Muh's inactivity, followed by jumping on the Staple BW, followed by refusing to show up now that pressure has been applied, why would I stop applying the pressure given he's

still

doing what I find scummy?

[Sando]

If bigmc flips scum, you are definitely likely to be a buddy of his.

Yeah righto, because I've gone totally out of my way to try and defend him...

1) rubbish - I also said And charter is in favour of a bigmc lynch, but that didn't mean it happened after everything I wrote before it. The 'and then' was to indicate why I started on you.

Then: subsequently or soon afterward

'And' has no timeline connotation, 'then' does. Seems pretty clear that you were saying that 'first this happened,

and then

this happened'. Wait wait, I'll quote it for you:

Bigmc and mug both make opportunistic and scummy attacks, but then bigmc says if staple
flips town he'll go after muh. Super scummy points to bigmc and if that's true then provisional townie points to muh. And pom came out in favour of bigmc, so add that to the list. And charter is in favour of a bigmc lynch and seems very town to me.

And then

you chose to vote muh instead of bigmc which earns you provisional scummy points.

Yep, that's exactly what it looks like.

The key thing is you are still favouring one over the other.

So are you, so is everyone every time they vote someone, what's your point? Do you think my reasoning is invalid? Or do you merely think that your reasoning is better than mine? Considering you seem to have conveniently forgotten the meaning of the word 'then', forgive me if I don't just blindly follow your reasoning.

But by your reasoning, if Bigmc turns scum, I get lynched, if Muh turns scum, you get lynched?

[Sando]

I don't care about the 'and then' point and am dropping it.

You want to drop the issue of you mis-representing me? Colour me surprised.

As for the second point, I'm not going to get drawn in by your little barbs or silly questions. Your perogative is to find scum, presumably, and that doesn't mean having little deals about who to lynch under what circumstances. Currently I have a theory of the game that makes you scummier than average, time to convince me otherwise if you're that worried about it, not try to push the point beyond recognition.

Your theory is fairly ludicrous, and you know it. Your theory can basically be summarised as 'you're voting someone other than me, so you're scum'. Your theory is amazingly arrogant, something I know that you're normally not, I'm forced to wonder why.

And I wasn't suggesting a 'deal', I was asking confirmation regarding this theory that you have. Interesting that you saying '

Sando is scum if Bigmc flips scum

' is a theory, me suggesting that '

Serial is scum if Muh flips scum

' is a little deal.

I like that you don't want to get drawn into my 'little barbs' though, after:

You'll get much more kudos if you get on the wagon and start bussing

Clearly it's me playing word games and not you...

[Sando]

Yes, muh is looking pretty bad, and if Staple flips town, I'll definetely be voting muh tomorrow.

So this is apparently the biggest scumtell in the game so far? As far as I can see, Bigmc hasn't 'pushed for tomorrows lynch', he mentioned this in passing and I haven't seen him mention it since.

Yes, it's a scum-tell, but it's certainly not as clear-cut as it's being made out. For instance, if Bigmc flips town, I will see it as a further scum-evidence against Muh, Serial and Charter. Now if that pushes me over the point of scuminess to thinking they're scum, I will vote them.

I personally think Bigmc flipping town would paint a big sign for Muh and Serial, for pretty obvious reasons I think. Merely stating this viewpoint of mine isn't a scumtell. I know there's a difference in Bigmcs case, but I'm not sure how it makes for the biggest scumtell in the game so far...

[Sando]

just want to let everyone know Im alive. I just dont know what to post.

You're right Serial, Muh is clearly town... I must be out of my mind to think he's scum...

Serial, you've stated to me personally and within this thread that you like to eliminate 5-6 people as basically town and then go from there. Who are your 5 people? And considering you've said this:

I am of the school that looks to pick about 5 people as town on D1 and be prepared to lynch any of the rest, almost irregardless of scumminess

How come you utterly refused to move onto another BW and actively attacked people for not following you and begged people not to do what you earlier stated was your D1 school of thought? You seem to have changed gameplan today, any reason why?

God I hate meta.

[Sando]

I can see why Bmc looks scummy, what I'm not sold on is that this is one of 'the most obvious D1 lynches ever'. From what I can see he made a fairly innocuous comment about voting someone tomorrow, and some people have a meta game on him based on 1(?) scum game?

He did what I, and others, thought was an opportunistic attack on Staples, but his willingness to back that up when attacked over it makes it seem less opportunistic. Someone who jumps on the wagon and never defends the position (or even posts) seems much more opportunistic and scummy to me.

[Sando]

Ok, this WW bandwagon is scummy as hell, wow. Crypto looks especially dodgy at this point.

Sorry about not posting, my net was out prior to the thread closing. My thoughts from rereading what I missed.

Crypto asking for this “Can you guys please tell me why you don't think Pom is scum?” strikes me as scummy, when you vote for people it should be because you find them scummy, not because others haven’t come up with a reason not to. It’s also basically asking people to do something scummy, defending another player.

Kaiveran has been completely and utterly useless, the definition of active lurking.

WarWound is looking very scummy. Pulling off the Pom wagon like that with absolutely no reasoning is pretty scummy. Refusing to read up/ post if he’s just going to get lynch is pretty AtE.

Meta on Ojanen is scummy. This is pure gut, but I do have a certain advantage here. She’s only posted what, 4-5 times though? So not a lot to go on.

And yes I'm well aware that my initial statement in this post and my read on WW is contradictory, but the BW is still scummy in my opinion.

Vote: Crypto

There's no 'policy' to lynch WW on. He might look scummy, but he's not doing anything to hurt town as a townie, which would bring on a policy lynch.

Crypto goes from lamenting how often he's mislynched on D1 and keeps screwing up to wanting a policy lynch on WW, in 1 post.

Scummy

[Sando]

Oh, and yes, I realise the hypocrisy of what I just said about Kaiveran

[Sando]

I thought it would be rather obvious that I was actually making a point about the pathetic case he made

Vote: muh316.

Hypocrite.

Yeah you've summed yourself up there pretty well Crypto.

[Sando]

It's D2 Trumpet...

Absolving yourself of responsibility for your vote gets you huge scumpoints though.

[Sando]

Easy way to ensure you're on a wagon hiphop and don't have to worry about someone trying to OMGUS vote everyone they see, vote crypto...

[Sando]

Well, I guess I could simply not vote until I'm sure I'm up to speed. Then again, looking at what notes I have, I'm a bit surprised hiphop hasn't been lynched yet... when I get my full read done, I'll post my comments from it.

There's a biiiiiiiig difference between not voting and saying 'I'll vote whoever people want me to', which is basically what you did.

And are you saying you want to lurk till lylo?

[Sando]

Carded for lurking/lack of activity?

Unvote, Vote: Kaiveran

Too many lurkers, we're not lynching someone as active as crypto today and giving lurkers a free pass imo.

Kai's 'catch up post' is astonishingly weak. It completely ignores pretty much everything except:

To say that Charter looks pro-town
To quote one of my fairly off-the-cuff posts that was pointless from me
To refer to only 1 of crypto's million posts, which was about my pointless post.
Misquote someone, either charter or crypto, too tired to go back and work out which one you misquoted.
To say that Trumpet is 'scum-friendly' with no real substance other than to change the colour of some of his post.

Other than that you've actively lurked through 38 pages of game and keep saying it's a scum-tell. Well it is, and I'm voting you for it.

[Sando]

Crypto, your posting is completely useless, you're jumping all over the place and specifically avoiding ever actually giving a decent read on people.

I didn't side with BigMC on D1, I sided against Muh. You also just avoided lynching BigMC, being a bit hypocritical there?

Also, what about my post against Kai don't you like apart from there being one? Do you disagree with part of what I said? Do you strongly believe that Kai is town?

Both of you are being useless, so I voted both of you.

[Sando]

Completely unjustified reads that are 100% useless for town, congrats.

[Sando]

I gave reasons for my vote on you, I gave reasons for my vote on Kai, and I stated reasons that I was finding Trumpet scummy. To suggest that I haven't been providing thought out reads is utterly ludicrous, and you're just starting to sound stupid.

And while I don't expect you to justify every read, justifying any of them would be a good start.

You're attacking anyone that even looks at you, you OMGUS vote everybody that votes you, and you utterly refuse to provide any meaningful discussion, instead you'd prefer to act like a complete idiot and hide behind the fact that since you're always an idiot who plays anti-town, we shouldn't vote you.

I for one, am calling you on it, my vote will be on you till you actually start contributing something worthwhile. Until then you're utterly useless and actively stifling conversation.

Unvote, Vote: Crypto

[Sando]

Do not fuck with me.

Crypto, being rude and belligerent isn't going to get me to go away, sorry mate. I love being rude, belligerent, and a whole host of other adjectives, like sarcastic, caustic, belittling and arrogant, just to name a few. Telling me 'not to fuck with you' isn't going to get me to back off, in fact it's a red rag to a bull, so let's have fun with this

You have not been in any way useful, you have voted 11 times just in D2, 2 of which were pure OMGUS (you voted for the person who had literally just voted you with no reasoning given). You're votes have never been justified, so when you say that "I only need to give reasons for people I want lynched" I'm assuming that when you vote someone you'll give reasons for them.

The fact that you're happy to call people scum, town or neutral and utterly refuse to actually give reasons for that, and still think my case is weak, is utterly ludicrous. You are refusing to give any useful information to town, and think that voting everyone in the game, and then hiding behind the 'I always act like an idiot' card is weak and pathetic, I'm not buying it.

I didn't ask you to restate reads with reasons

I still want you to give YOUR reads. And since you think they all need to be justified, I want you to do so.

You are an outright liar. And you thinking that you're going to get me to back off by telling not to 'fuck with you' is hilarious.

Care to tell me how you WEREN'T asking for my reads + reasons?

[Sando]

You asked me to give my reads, with reasonings. Then you claimed that didn't ask me for just that... I mean really, contradicting yourself in the space of 2 posts is pretty stupid.

You asked me for my reads, plural, I had given you 3, with reasonings, just today. Asking for someones reads doesn't mean you've asked for reads on every single player in the game. I don't give reads I can't justify, because they are completely fucking useless without any justification.

I make cases, today for instance I've made a case on you, Kai and I've called Trumpet on some of the things they've done that I find scummy.

Merely insulting me, when I'm right, isn't going to work dude.

I was making a point of how blatantly pointless/irrational/scummy/useless Muh's vote was.

All of your votes are like this.

I will admit that you are right about one thing though, you have been quite useful, you've shown just how scummy you are, so thank you for that.

[Sando]

Assumptions swing either way. Your reads are not useless without spoken justification. But your refusal to give more than three at this stage in the game is anti-information and therefore anti-town.

Deliberately avoiding the obvious, or falling to the same issue you like to accuse me of? If I don't think I can justify it, it's because I don't have a good enough read on someone to say that they're anything but pretty neutral in my eyes. So you actually want me to type 'xxxx is neutral so far' just for sake of saying it? And not saying that is anti-town? Nope, noone is that stupid, you're clearly reaching for an argument here.

I've also said that I find BigMC and Muh scum, just haven't stated that today. Nothing has changed to make them look less scummy, it's just that a lot of things pinged on my scumdar today, and now you're obviously scum, so I've chosen you for today.

Good to know you've locked in on me, although past experience says I'll have your vote for all of 2 minutes. And I'm extremely happy to put my towniness against yours. You're the 4th person I'm actively going after, nothing has changed in my play except who I'm attacking. This is good though, maybe having you voting me will finally force you to actually justify your actions.

What about my behavior has changed? Or is that what you meant by "I don't even know", you don't know how it's changed, you're just worried that someone is actively attacking you?

I also never said you were an idiot, merely that you were acting like one, and I'm fairly strongly implying that you're doing it deliberately. I'm also not complaining about insulting me, just pointing out how pointless it is on me, I'm happy for you to insult me, and I'm happy to insult you if you want me to.

[Sando]

Ahahahaha, you wont read or respond to posts by the person you're currently voting, not just today, but all of the next game-day as well. You really don't like getting called out, do you?

4pm Sun arvo for me, I have plenty of time on my hands

[Sando]

He never got on board day one with bigmc, always preferring Pom, for almost the exact same reason.

I don’t think I’ve ever voted Pom, I voted Muh for the entire time people were going after BigMC. I also consistently stated that I found both of them scummy, but that I thought Muh was scummier, I then lost my internet and didn’t get it back up before D1 ended. Considering you claim to have ‘just reread’ that time, care to elaborate on how I was voting Pom?

That said, why are we not lynching Crypto today? He’s CLEARLY scum:

Regarding BigMCs slip:

2. Less importantly, this quote could be a Freudian slip. I know I'm always worried that I'm going to take a shell through the forehead each night. And that seeps into my posts— "If I don't kick the bucket tonight, I'll definitely be voting Muh tomorrow." BMC didn't take that into account, but he may have just overlooked it. *shrug* Probably null.

I don't get why BMC is taking so much heat. If my memory serves me correctly, he didn't say anything that marks him as scummy as Charter and SC have made him out to be. Setting up future bandwagons is not a scum tell. Townies have done it many times. I've done it a lot. The argument against BMC is a load of crap.

I doubt BMC is scum. My beef is more with the case against him, especially in light of MUCH scummier player (Staple, Pom).

No. BMC is town.

Because, SC, I've already found scum in Pom (and probably Staple, who, I might add, is still playing in another game), and I'm back to having a null read on BMC. I suspected him because of his math posts, which were pretty shabby evidence against him anyway. No one else agreed about that, and his attack on Staple is totally legit.

Pomegranate is so blatantly scummy that I'm more than content with leaving my vote on her all day.

Okay, I don't know why I'm doing because I'm going to get yelled at for a case and I'm not in the mood to post one, but FOS WarWound, Charter, Malpascp as a scum team.

Directly after Charter votes BigMC early on D2.

Blindly voting is profoundly scummy.

Day 2 votes from crypto, most with absolutely no reasoning:

Vote: muh316.
Unvote: muh316. Vote: bigmc109.
Unvote: bigmc109. Vote: hiphop.
Unvote: hiphop. Vote: bigmc109.
Unvote. Vote: muh316
Unvote: muh 316. Vote: bigmc109.
Unvote: bigmc109. Vote: Kaiveran.
Unvote: Kaiveran. Vote: bigmc109.
Unvote: bigmc109. Vote: Trumpet of Doom.
Vote: bigmc109.
Vote: Sando
Unvote: Sando. Vote: bigmc109.

Crypto’s arguments/votes have always been astonishingly short on actual reasoning. Charter, your reason for voting me is basically exactly what Crypto did, not what I did, come kill him.

Kai and Crypto have both defended each other as soon as I attacked either of them, and Kai has been obviously scummy in his own right. Both Kai and Crypto defended bigmc during D1, and both pushed the Pom lynch. I’m happy to lynch Kai today as well, and a scum flip from either would merely confirm my current thoughts.

Vote: Crypto

[Sando]

True, you didn't vote Bigmc, but that's not really important. You consistently put muh and Pom ahead of Bigmc in scumminess. It looks very suspicious, since as scum, it's really nice to claim to be suspicious of one of your buddies, but do nothing to further their lynch.

Care to provide me a single example of where I did this? I never voted Pom, ever, I never deviated from Muh on D1 once I voted him (mostly because of my net going down), and most of my arguing was with Serial about who was the better lynch of Muh and bigmc. I don't think I even mentioned Pom once I voted Muh, while I did consistently say that while bigmc was scummy I thought Muh was more so.

You are flat out lying, and given that you've claimed to have done a reread of that time, I have to assume you know that you're flat out lying.

I vote Muh on page 15, and I don't believe I even mentioned Pom before he was lynched, and I was without net for his lynch. Charter, you're just making stuff up, and you look incredibly scummy doing it.

What do I think of Peanut? Well he's replaced 2 active lurkers, so there's very little to get off his predecessors. His vote on Muh seems oportunistic, and completely avoids any bigmc connections. I think he's put up a pretty weak case to put someone at L-2, and ignores a lot of the gameplay, doesn't look good.

As to Muh himself, I still find him scummy from D1, he's been pretty quiet since then, and that's one of the reasons I find/found him scummy. He seems to have done something similar to that today with his vote on crypto. My gut says that bigmc and Muh weren't scum together, and that was why me and serial were arguing about what happens if one flips town/scum, because I think neither of us thought both would be scum and therefore both right.

We've just lynched scum, scum linked pretty strongly to a few players, and now we're putting someone at L-2 with basically no reasoning.

MM provides some reasoning, and is first vote I believe, so no big deal.
The Inquisition provides no reasoning
Peanut provides some reasoning, it's fairly weak and doesn't mention bigmc
Empking provides no reasoning

This wagon scares the hell out of me, the timing of it, who's on it, the lack of case, etc etc.

[Sando]

Now that bigmc has flipped scum, your constant defending of him day one is more than lynchworthy.

Why are you ignoring that crypto much more explicitly defended bigmc, and actively tried (and succeeded) in getting a townie lynched over Bigmc?

[Sando]

All of my reasons are how they defended or acted with regard to Bigmc.

If you want to find me scummy for that, fine, but crypto doesn't even feature on your scum list despite going out of his way to defend bigmc and push the lynch of a townie, and you've now stated that all of your reasons are for their interactions with Bigmc.

You are completely ignoring it.

Why do you not find crypto scummy for his constant defending of bigmc and his active movement of the wagon onto a townie?

[Sando]

Sando, you did not fucking know that Pom was a townie before her flip. She was the scummiest person in the game. Feel free to rant against me all you want, but your abuse of 20/20 hindsight is pathetically weak.

Why are you accusing me of being scum then? If I was scum, I would know Pom was a townie.

Nice slip crypto, why are we not lynching him now?!

[Sando]

However, not only is muh scummy, but a policy lynch, I want out of the way. It is better that we lynch him now, than later.

You seem to be starting to try and remove any potential blame for a town-flip...

There is definitely scum on Muh's wagon. It's going too easily and too quickly, with too little discussion. Any movement away from the wagon is violently rejected, and selective reading seems to be prevalent. There have been numerous stupid cases made (like charters 'you wanted pom lynched, oh wait no you didn't, but I still think you're scum') that just completely defy logic.

Muh has done nothing to erase my suspicions of him D1, in fact quite the opposite. But I never thought both him and Bigmc would be scum, and this wagon is so terrible, I can't think that he's scum.

you misrep charter's case on you and subsequently try to counter his arguments using said misrep.

Doh, I think I had muh and Pom blurred together in my head

And you want to tell me that I misrepped him? You are getting sillier and sillier. Charter claimed that I was a major factor in getting Pom lynched on D1 (I wasn't, that was crypto), and when I called him on his misrep/mistake, whatever you want to call it, he admitted he was wrong.

He then accuses me of defending Bigmc, and completely ignores the multitude of quotes from crypto actively going out of his way to defend a confirmed scum AND get a townie lynched.

Yeah total misrep from me...

[Sando]

It doesn't matter WHO Sando preferred over Bigmc

So wait, the fact that I preferred someone who is still alive (so we don't know their alignment), and who many people still find scummy, is worse than someone who not only defended Bigmc MORE, but actively went after what we know is a townie all of D1?

Your case is entirely predicated on me doing something that crypto did more of, and completely ignores that crypto also got a townie lynched in the same time.

That's the main point, it is irrefutable

I've stated that there's nothing more I can say on the matter, I'm not trying to refute your point. But you're very clearly defending a player who utterly refused to find bigmc scummy on D1, and got a townie lynched.

[Sando]

Um, I think you guys are missing the point of my 'crypto did it more than me' posts. His defence of Bigmc is only part of why I find him scummy.

My point with those posts is that charter is looking extremely scummy. He's making an argument against 1 person while ignoring another person who did the same thing or worse. When 2 people do the same thing that is scummy, then if you choose to ignore 1 of them while tunneling another, you look extremely scummy yourself.

I'm attacking charter, not crypto, with those posts.

I'll post more later tonight.

[Sando]

So charter thinks going after pom on D1 over bigmc is scummy:

He never got on board day one with bigmc, always preferring Pom

Which he subsequently voted me for.

However, on D1:

I think Pom is actually scummier, but bigmc is a good lynch.

Let's lynch Pom.

Empking, why not vote for Pom?

Let's lynch Pom. Two more votes will do it.

Charter is the person who deliberately leaves the bigmc wagon to pursue pom in post 667, and despite claiming that he wants to lynch bigmc but can’t because the wagon has stopped, when Pyro votes him only 3 posts later, charter stays with the pom lynch who is now ‘actually scummier’. He had a perfect opportunity to go back to the person he claimed to think was scummy, yet avoided it for a pom wagon.

Crypto, well crypto deliberately defends bigmc for the entirety of D1 (see my first post of D3), his ‘vote’ on bigmc is incredibly weak, in fact he states in the same paragraph as his vote that Pom is the obv scum of the game, and that bigmc should ‘humor him’.

Crypto contradicts his own meta read on bigmc:

As someone who was in BMC's last game with him, I can say that he was much more indecisive then than now.

and he has shown plenty of trepidation about mistaking newbie town for newbie scum, which is a natural evolution after deliberately lynching newbie town when he was scum last game.

So bigmc is apparently much more decisive in this game but is showing plenty of trepidation…

Early on D2, crypto went very, very hard for WW, despite stating prior to the end of the day that he didn’t really find WW all that scummy, and justify’s it as a policy lynch. A policy lynch less than 24 hours into D2 based on pretty much nothing is incredibly weak.

Sando, you did not fucking know that Pom was a townie before her flip.

This is a clear scum-slip from crypto. You cannot accuse someone of being scum and then claim that they didn’t know someone was town. Scum know exactly who town is (at least in a single scum team game). The only way that crypto would know that I didn’t know Poms alignment is if crypto is himself scum.

Where did you say this during day 1?

Can you stop talking to me please? You said you weren’t going to talk to me until the end of D3, and it’s bliss.

Bgmc, quite possibly scum, certainly up there

Sando- I believe you don't have a leg to stand on.

Attacking charter is not a good thing, because charter is town.

Thank you for your well reasoned approach to this game, kindly get back in your box or post something substantive. Merely bandwagoning with literally no reasoning other than ‘I know that charter is town and even though you’re not voting him, merely questioning him is scummy’ is pretty stupid.

[Sando]

Fair enough re me, I was pretty exhausted last night and just failed to remember that there was no kill last night and what that meant re JK.

Unvote, Vote: charter

Hiphop has absolved everyone of responsibility for a townies lynch (and this was before I was a retard and missed the obvious), I find this fairly scummy. By the way that statement by me isn't predicated on you believing I'm town, he specifically stated that even if I flip town no blame will be prescribed.

VT btw.

I'm not entirely sure why doing something as stupid as pushing crypto is really all that scummy, but meh, it was pretty stupid, fair cop.

[Sando]

Yeah my play on the day I was lynched was pretty atrocious. It caught me at a period where I was extremely busy and nearly all my posts were late at night and typically after a few bevies. Ironically when I completely missed that crypto had been confirmed it was neither late nor was I drunk, I was just super tired and subsisting on Red Bull.

In fact even when I went back and found the JK claim, it took me half an hour to work out why that made Crypto confirmed, my brain just wasn´t working