/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[Ojanen]

/confirm

[Ojanen]

Ojanen, why did you eat breakfast after seeing the murder? Doesn't the sight of blood make your stomach turn?

I pretended it was ketchup. And sausages are yummy.
Why do you prefer flavor related questions to theory related ones?

On a related note, I would have wanted to place a wagon vote on someone, but had no interest in the options available.

Why didn't you want to vote Yos, Shabba, alexhans or tajo?

[Ojanen]

Strongest opinion so far: the elvis wagon is bad.
The "4 scum and a traitor" response to her question was not formatted like an assumption. I did not pick up on it being sarcasm.
It struck me out as weird. I'm not finding it a probable slip, after this talk about it, but elvis seems zealous town more than anything.

There were also some weird responses about it,

Elvis's case on KMD is reaching. He is definitely competent enough to be aware of whether he is suggesting a particular number of scum, so I'm pretty sure it's not a slip.

Regardless of Kmd's awareness, he did suggest a number, this almost seems to say he didn't suggest one.

Why doesn't it sound like an assumption? Would scum really say "yeah, I know the number of scum. It's right here in my Role PM." Nah. (Yes, I'm using WIFOM and to defend myself no less. Deal with it.)

Cause it just doesn't. Dunno about scumslip, but it's just not formatted like an assumption.

Also, Xyl 105. Goes on about possible numbers of scum and says "anything more than 4 or 5 is overthinking it" but fails to mention if he thinks Kmd made a slip or not, although his position could somewhat suggest it.

charter 154 was solid. BaB change of mind on prompt was strange and the later "I sat 5 minutes and thought about it" explanation doesn't feel honest to me.

I don't understand why you are not attacking Elvis. Elvis has almost as many votes as me, and she's been ignoring the votes on her. You staying off of her wagon is odd

Is odd, cause charter clearly had many more reasons to vote BaB, which he elaborated on.

Elvis- Started out with the "last to confirm" tell. I usually see that as an excuse to look like you are scumhunting. After you throw those names out, you joke around a little without voting for a few posts. Not even a vote on those last players to confirm that you pointed out. Then you have a random vote with no reason, just to replace it with a joke reason next post. This is where I vote you and you go all OMGUS "SCUM SLIP YOU SAID WE HAVE 4 SCUM. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT" on me.

This seemed way more malicious and overrepresenting than what elvis did.

I'm not crazy about Herodotus being asked the same question thrice and ignoring it until the third time.

For the moment BaB wagon seems good. I dislike his actions arouind Elvis in whole.

vote: BridgesabdBaloons

I'm not thinking Kmd's slip was a probable legitimate slip after reading all the stuff but

FoS: Kmd

for the reaction.


This game started on a not-good week for me. Sorry, but

V/LA probably until Monday

. I'll be participating full-force starting next week.

[Ojanen]

Dropping in to take a glance at my games, but not out of V/LA yet. 12 hours and I'll be done with the traveling and have time to actually concentrate in this thing. Not comfortable at all with a lynch happening yet.

unvote

[Ojanen]

I'm baaaaack, and I read the game again.
This time through trying on the glasses of assuming Kmd to be sarcastic from the go.

Strongest opinion so far: the elvis wagon is bad.

Rate the strength of your opinion from 1-10...one being weak and 10 being certain....

Giving a number feels inaccurate in silly way. I had many of the same thoughts that elvis was expressing. I could relate to her posts, I was feeling her. But 'twas early day 1. Some of her defence felt mildly genuine. Mafia is a hard game though, I don't have great confidence in anything yet. If I have to give a number, I'll say 5 or 6.
After assuming sarcasm, I'm more on the fence about the opposition.

Why doesn't it sound like an assumption? Would scum really say "yeah, I know the number of scum. It's right here in my Role PM." Nah. (Yes, I'm using WIFOM and to defend myself no less. Deal with it.)

Cause it just doesn't. Dunno about scumslip, but it's just not formatted like an assumption.

What does this mean?

He gave 4 names; he said "4 scum and a traitor" or something similar; a simple answer, one from which I failed to see the obvious sarcasm from while reading; one that wasn't formulated like an assumption.

I'm not thinking Kmd's slip was a probable legitimate slip after reading all the stuff but FoS: Kmd for the reaction.

Which reaction?

I think I was mainly thinking about this thing that I perceived as misreppish, as Claus would put it, malicious.

Elvis- Started out with the "last to confirm" tell. I usually see that as an excuse to look like you are scumhunting. After you throw those names out, you joke around a little without voting for a few posts. Not even a vote on those last players to confirm that you pointed out. Then you have a random vote with no reason, just to replace it with a joke reason next post. This is where I vote you and you go all OMGUS "SCUM SLIP YOU SAID WE HAVE 4 SCUM. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT" on me.

I'm gonna be pretty unorthodox right here though.
I don't find Kmd unvoting because of vanilla claim and change of mind scummy. Over the time I have found Kmd less scummy than originally.
The wifom Kmd uses re: the vanilla claim gives my gut a townish feeling. Too obvious to likely deflect from scumbuddy, too obscure and likely to get flak to be a typical scum distancing from mislynch.

You guys are saying Shabba is more likely newbish than scum, but I did find the way she came up with suspecting the top 2 wagons in the end mightily questionable.

I think BaB is scummy, mainly because of posts 100, 102, 155 and 245 (angry vibes)...First, I thought that BaB was bussing Xyl...until Xyl voted for him, so there goes that theory. Post 251 confused me...big time.

If a post from someone suspicious confuses me, I ask them questions. The vagueness last sentence is mind-baffling and scummy.

To be continued after pasta.

[Ojanen]

@zu Faul, ekiM, alexhans:
Do you think the paragraph under the last quote in roflcopter 298 is a valid scumtell?

@iamausername:
Why was BaB's plea for time scummy and the reason for you to make him L-1? (Specifically, what was the scum motivation?)

[Ojanen]

Well I'm adverse to BaB dying right now. I'm not sure about him, I haven't got proper reads on half the players yet and there are several people coming out of V/LAs right about now.
Thesp, when do you plan to enclose your reasons for heartily endorsing the BaB wagon (now and originally)? After he's been lynched? Frankly I'm not quite understanding why this is a beneficial strategy.

[Ojanen]

Thesp, when do you plan to enclose your reasons for heartily endorsing the BaB wagon (now and originally)?

3 - Sure. I think elvis_knits's suspicion of Kmd3490 is genuine. The manner in which BridgesAndBaloons approached elvis_knits suggests to me that he's trying to exploit the suspicion on the number of people.

Also, I think Herodotus outed himself as B&B's partner.

I had missed that explanation.
But I actually agree with Herodotus in that the sentence doesn't add up. Looking at the timeline, what was he trying to exploit? What was your exact reason of voting BaB originally? What was the reason you didn't want to tell why you voted for him at that time?

[Ojanen]

Thesp appears that he may bussing, and this is the strongest point for BaB-scum as opposed to BaB-townie-who-is-reacting-poorly. But I think he's a better lynch.

But I'm also not quite following why Herodotus would suspect it's bussing. Elaboration please?

[Ojanen]

To BAB: I did give my reasoning for my vote. It was earlyish on in the Day when I voted, making the comment I felt there was a very good chance that you were scum who had been drawing a lot of attention from good Townies and bussing scum, and so I voted you. Everyone seemed to be popping up and saying something about you, or at least that was my perception as I read through to catch up.

Regarding elvis, I've made the comment that I don't think too much of her reaction one way or the other. Leaning town on elvis.

Yos2 is a good backup vote for me, and I don't like Herodotus calling for votes on Thesp.

I get the reasoning for the vote for the early stage.
But you have given no other reasoning for the last 350 posts about why you're happy to stay on the bandwagon until L-1, except just recently "forced" about 398. " While I agree on 398 feeling bad (no content sucks, the spelling stuff feels fake and if it's humor I don't get it), getting mentioned by many people" does not seem a scumtell that would be enough reason to lynch someone.
I also wanna hear what you don't like about Yos, he was another early bad guy call from you.

[Ojanen]

@zu Faul, ekiM, alexhans:

Do you think the paragraph under the last quote in roflcopter 298 is a valid scumtell?

Do you mean "stop. this isn't about arguing theory, this is about the motivation you had to argue the theory in the first place."? What would it mean for this to "be a valid scumtell"? Can you rephrase your question

I meant the whole thing from that sentence you quoted until the end of that post. Basically that whole idea, the same thing Yos is stating as the major reason for his vote. I meant by my question whether you find BaB to be scummy because of that point.
I'll comment more in a few hours.

[Ojanen]

I wanna reread some when I have time later today (several of my tentative scumreads just flipped town), but I note one thing that feels insincere to me.

I asked ekiM yesterday whether he thought the thing about BaB saying he didn't like the reasoning behind Elvis' thought process about BaB+Xyl being mafia together was scummy.
(I referred to roflcopter 298 in the question.)

The response I got was

It was said that Xyl + B&B scum together is unlikely. Scum-B&B has much more motivation to undermine this than town-B&B does, so I do think it's a scumtell, yes.

Why he was among the people I asked it from?
His own opinion at the time was:

Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.

Agreeing with BaB that Elvis' idea was silly, but later not batting an eyelash in finding that agreed thought a scumtell feels scummy to me.
I know the difference is in who has what motivation to say it, but the thought process still just feels alien to honest scumhunting.

I have townish gutreads on both Elvis and Kmd, btw.

[Ojanen]

I feel like Yos is putting gasoline to a town-town fight and I don't like it.
ESPECIALLY because he didn't want to comment on Kmd vs. Elvis at the time it originally happened.
Also, I do not think Kmd dropping Bridges for vanilla claim was a scumtell. I see little realistic scum benefit (the wagon wasn't gonna lose it bloodlust for that anyway, prospect of getting someone else to claim was unrealistic I think) and the obscurish wifom seemed townish.

Remember this?

Yos, why were you purposely not commenting on me/kmd?

I didn't think your attack on him was especally convincing (I mentioned that breiefly, I believe), but I don't have enough a read on him to defend him at this point, and letting the wagon happen would probably provide more information. About the only valid point made is that the way he defended himself against your accusation was a little odd; he went into a whole long thing about why one would assume there are X scum in the game, which was strange since he really didn't seem to be assuming that in the first place.

That being said, I'm also not too impressed by the attack against you; B&B isn't entierly incorrect that it seems like you overstreached a bit in your attack against KMD, but not to a great degree; you seem a little iffy in some ways, but I don't really think the attack-against-you-for-attacking-KMD really makes sense either.

Anyway, I think we've got a heck of a lot more information then we would have if I had just stepped in right away and said "No, Elvis, you're misinterpreting KMD here". It was much more informative for me to sit back and wait, and see how he defended himself instead, and to see who took sides for him and against him.

(shurg) I was contributing, I thought. I just wasn't talking about the Elvis/KMD/B&B three-way fight much, because I didn't really agree with any of those arguments, but at the same time didn't want to defend any of the three of them.

It doesn't outright contradict his current stance although it's MUCH, much more severe, but Kmd has been consistent with his elvis vote (I don't agree with either but that's not the point here), and now Yos decides to go after him for no apparent new impulse in his behaviour.
It smells of deciding his stance on earlier happenings much afterwards, which town shouldn't need to do.

[Ojanen]

I feel like Yos is putting gasoline to a town-town fight and I don't like it.
ESPECIALLY because he didn't want to comment on Kmd vs. Elvis at the time it originally happened.

I did make clear yesterday that I suspected KMD, you know. I also made clear yesterday my opinion that KMD's response to Elvis's attack was quite odd, to say the least.

Originally you said about the response

About the only valid point made is that the way he defended himself against your accusation was a little odd.

Yeah, you said it was a little odd (but your position has become a lot, lot more severe).

Anyway, the biggest thing right now is KMD's vote for elvis today. There's no way that makes sense at this point if KMD is town; it seems entierly based on a "Elvis attacked me yesterday so I'm going to vote her" attitude that's just inherently scummy.

Yeah, that was part of what I was puzzled about, because Kmd reverted back to elvis yesterday for the rest of the day after he dropped his BaB vote, so this didn't seem like new information to me.

Bandwagoning someone to a claim, and then trying to drop the wagon and bandwagon someone else once they claim vanilla, is a scum tell, especally on day 1. Those kind of tactics, repeated bandwagon-to-a-claim stuff, are just the easiest way for a scum to flush out town power roles.

Yeah, yeah. Don't see this in context of this game. I agree when there are several big wagons but not here with loads of people wanting to lynch BaB and Kmd reverting back to not-very-generally-supported Elvis wagon (from 9-3 to 8-4). I think this line of discussion will revert fast to useless though, seems a difference on how we read people in the game. Yours is probably generally theoretically sound but in this case, I'm just not seeing it.

ALso, I find it kind of funny that you're assuming the B&B wagon was going to go at that through no matter what, when just yesterday I was being attacked for "joining the B&B wagon when it was starting to lose steam", heh.

Don't really remember that. I was V/LA for a bit and to me it always seemed I was in a rush to get to play before the day ends because the BaB wagon was rolling on. At the time of the claim I thought there was a lot of momentum anyway, and that's what relevant.

I thought I made pretty clear that, by letting KMD answer the questions himself, we got to hear his defense, which was odd, and not at all what I would expected, and that, from that, I was able to get a read on both KMD and Elvis.

In other words, just like I said yesterday, by not stepping in and responding to Elvis' initial post on page 4, and instad hearing KMD's defense and all that, I was able to figure out that KMD is probably scum and Elvis is probably town. Which is what I've been saying all along. How the hell could you call that a "contradiction" of what I was saying yesterday? That is EXACTALLY what I was saying yesterday, especally later in the day.

So, first of all, I specifically said you have not outright contradicted yourself, misrep there.
Second, the parts I quoted were your original stance on the thing when asked. You found Kmd scummy later in the day. This seemed to happen because of dropping off BaB wagon (iso 26), connection to BaB (iso 27), iso 33 Kmd fairly likely scum seemingly because of these BaB-related happenings

At the time, I thought that both the KMD wagon and the Elvis counterwagon were basically based on nothing

; if it came to a deadline, the only large bandwagon I was at all interested in at the time was Xyl.
This has changed, by the way; I thought it was clear where I currently stand, but in case it isn't, B&B is probably scum and, if he is, Xyl is 100% guarenteed to be town;

KMD is fairly likely to be scum

, and I think Elvis is probably town; and shabba still hasn't said anything relevent.

and then 34 and 36 you seem to have changed into thinking Kmd's responses were scummy after all, which I had earlier missed.
I was not saying you didn't find Kmd scummy, but it felt to me you were rehashing the old early arguments and changing your position to quite much more severe.
Sorry for the wall. I will try to be more concise in future, now too in hurry to be able to write directly on point.

[Ojanen]

I'm going for Mike for now.

vote: ekiM

I agree Serial needs to get his ass here.
I like playing with you man, come on!

[Ojanen]

Ojanen: The reason I was "rehashing the early arguments" wasn't because I think that's the strongest point against KMD, or anything like that. The only reason I got into that was because KMD's only defense for his vote on Elvis was her "reaction to his vote on her", so I went back, re-read that interaction again, and then pointed out that there was nothing wrong with Elvis's reactions there at all, and that her actions, and her vote, made complete sense at the time.
Why is it that you attacking me for "rehashing early arguments", but you're apparently ok with KMD using those same early arguments as a reason to vote Elvis now, even though you claim to agree with me in thinking Elvis is town? Was I just supposed to accept that as a justification for his vote, when I don't think there was anything wrong with Elvis's actions there?

What kmd did is direct continuation from what he did yesterday. He was right about BaB. He continued harping about that fight with Elvis. I disagree with his suspicion and on what it's based on. A disagreement doesn't overrule my town read.

What you did is that you sat back from the early kmd/elvis/BaB fight. Then you explained that it was on purpose because you didn't have good reads of them and the wagons would allow you to get better ones. Basically:

(shurg) I was contributing, I thought. I just wasn't talking about the Elvis/KMD/B&B three-way fight much, because I didn't really agree with any of those arguments, but at the same time didn't want to defend any of the three of them.

Then you expressed suspicion for kmd for BaB-related stuff. And THEN you came back and found kmd's reaction scummy, and in detail today. There was just a flavor of trying to inflame that argument back today. I certainly don't wanna lynch elvis either, but I don't think she's heavily suspected at the moment and kmd is.

I'm tired of being a wimpy useless sissy reasonable town player. I have a townread on Kmd, I'll be a clown if I turn out to be wrong but I'm not gonna not try to make a difference anymore when I have a mislynch feeling.
Also, I don't get you're trying to implicate by saying I "claim" to agree with you in finding elvis town, my strongest expressed early opinion was that elvis is townish.

[Ojanen]

So, been meaning to answer Mike for a while.

His catch up post (iso 11) feels somehow overly confidently anti-bridges to me. Feels like slinging whatever sticks from other people's arguments, which is accentuated by the fact that I feel like I did catch him with a contradiction in thought process earlier. Mike, you asked for clarification from me, I think elvis already pretty much gave it.

I also don't know what your problem with what I said it. I thought Elvis was overblowing what she was saying. I agreed that it was reasonable to question the motivation for B&B devoting so much effort to attacking a line of thought that only harmed him if he was scum. And?

Nope, nope. BaB wasn't somehow devoting himself to a huge effort to attack that line. He was getting attacked for why he mentioned it in the first place, and then he was defending and explaining his thoughts.
Considering your similar minded early spontaneous comment ("Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.") it's just hard for me to see this suspicion as sincere from you.
Same thing is highlighted also here:

Page 10

B&B 235, 237, 245 are just.... awful. Pretty sure he's scum. Worst thing: trying to discredit the Xyl+B&B not scum together line. What is the townie motivation?

(wild speculation: Claus said earlier he had a timid scum meta from Mike, couldn't help but wonder if the mudsling style was a reaction to that.)

ekiM, was there a specific reason for you to not post reasoning on why you originally voted Bridges?

When he's out of V/LA, the answering of the same questions to different people 50 times seems unnecessary, don't understand the motivation.

I'm not fully caught up and need to answer Yos and inspect several people, but don't have the time right now.

[Ojanen]

EBWOP

ekiM, was there a specific reason for you to not post reasoning on why you originally voted Bridges?

Realised this is ambiguous, meant to ask if there's a reason you didn't explain it at the time of the vote.

[Ojanen]

I'm working an insane amount of hours this week, feeling broken from tiredness and falling behind here. I'm not attempting to read the wallposts between Yos and Serial right now. Will do that and comment on Saturday. The point I do see as possibly valid against Serial is parking his vote early on BaB and apparently actively lurking through the crucial stages of the lynch D1, but as I said, not much clue about his content posts yet.

Then you expressed suspicion for kmd for BaB-related stuff. And THEN you came back and found kmd's reaction scummy, and in detail today.

(shrug) Ok, true enough. When I was suspicious of KMD and went back and carefully re-read his posts in isolation, they seemed worse to me then when I read the thread through the first time.

Why did you say it was disturbing selective quoting when I first pointed this out?

There was just a flavor of trying to inflame that argument back today.

You keep saying that, but I'm not trying to "inflame an argument" or whatever, I've trying to both question KMD, get information about him, and trying attack him, as he is currently my main suspect.

I kept saying that cause of the position change, cause you suddenly got to this argument you had not been a part of and brought back those posts, because your arguments, at first, suddenly started defending elvis because of that vote instead of attacking Kmd, which is a subtle but significant difference in tone.

Kmd, could you explain again why you think Elvis is scum? Because between the two of you, I find you significantly more suspicious.

Even in your first comment something about the way you say "between the two of you" slightly bothers me, although can't put my finger on it. Something about trapping the view between the 2 of them. But this one is an obscure gut point.

Can you explain why you have a strong townread on KMD?

I might read him in iso later if I have time and give you specific quotes. But uselessly generalizedly: gut, meta (contributed to his mislynch in Adel's beta hydra game as scum recently so checked him out but didn't actually think he was scum there either), giving puffs of a certain breed of wifom I recognize as a towntell.
To an extent, I don't personally agree on the general meta of what is scummy. I feel that there's an area inside the concept of cases on the sitewide meta that is used in millions of mislynches, and feel like Kmd is falling there.

ekiM post coming next.

[Ojanen]

TL;DR for page 26: ekiM throws a fit because elvis wanted to know who he was suspicious of.

QFT
ekiM's fit isn't making me dislike my vote.
Pointing violently at others is pointless derailing. Substantless aggression to get people off his back.

People don't like having questions ignored so I searched for my name and answered everything, just to be sure.
What's the motivation for this complaint?

Fluff is not productive. Slight taste of pointless pleasing attempt.

Re: the thing you don't think is a contradiction. It's actually more clear in your catch up.

Page 10
B&B 235, 237, 245 are just.... awful. Pretty sure he's scum. Worst thing: trying to discredit the Xyl+B&B not scum together line. What is the townie motivation?

When you agree with the original thought, I just don't like at all how you have a problem with seeing a townie motivation. BaB was not tryng to discredit anything out of the blue there, he was getting attacked because of the original thought.
Seems like we're gonna have to settle to "Isn't! Is too!" here though.

I disagree with everyone who has a problem with the deeply concerned thing though. Gut twinges are ok and it was maybe a slightly busyworkish but I can't see it specifically as scummy/serious.

[Ojanen]

I want to hear more from tajo.
His BaB hammer left me debating whether it was sincere. Dunno why. Otherwise his points have been mostly tajo-style catch ups or reasonable but smallish points, which sets my alarms slightly. The scumlist he's asking from Mike would be nice from him too, very preferably with reasoning.

[Ojanen]

I read the Serial/Yos thing.

- I agree with, eek, ekiM.

I can see why BAB felt Yos was being unfair, but I don't think Yos was being dishonest. His view was that BAB primarily or only voted for reason X. It was also his view that BAB was acting like trapped scum. He said what his views were.

From what I've understood about the thought processes, the thing is

approximately

-Yos thinks BaB changed his reasons after voting for him and him attacking that reason. Yos thought that was a desperate move to make and BaB was borderline lying when he cried out disputing the reasons Yos was expressing for his vote were.
-Serial doesn't feel it's so significant that all the reasons are voiced at the same time as the vote is given (after all the BaB posts were very close in time to each other). He thinks Yos evaded addressing BaB's reasons expressed a couple of posts later. Serial thought Yos answered with bad-gut-feelin-inducing overboard aggression and confidence without really commenting.

Yos' 467 reads as pretty unpleasant to me, but that's mafia and I don't see a tangible scummy thing.

More than anything, I'm just seeing a lot of testosterone and not so much listening from either side. Readwise not sure.

-I think the first rolefishing accusation is rubbish though.

i was happy with how i read yesterday, and

unless you know something i don't

i still don't think all my theories were wrong. for instance, kmd-zufaul being scum together. and now i'm willing to bet on you for a third partner.

Unless you've got some knowledge about Yos2 that I don't have

, looks like you're doing exactly the same thing.

It felt like a matching response and it was actually making a distinct point about hypocracy that fits the context

So I'm not so hot at all on the FoS Yos gave to Serial's sentence.

Second rolefishing accusation basically just felt like colorful language asking more reasons to me. I can understand gut twinges but don't really see it myself either.

SC, were you more or less caught up during the latter stages of day 1?

I am actually quite touched that Ojanen said she enjoyed playing with me

Awww. It was sincere.

(Btw

I agree Serial needs to get his ass here.

We, being far less couth than some other English-derivative speakers, would insert an 'r' into that word. But all of that is just a well-worded and pithy way of saying SerialClergyman's arse is officially here.

It bothered me when my ESL mind couldn't decipher what this meant. Was I talking about a donkey or what?)

[Ojanen]

Wow, I actually really don't like VP Baltar from iso perspective.

All he ever said directly about BaB (bar a random vote):

@BnB--do you feel a majority of the votes on you are merely for bandwagoning purposes and/or are the result of lazy play?

I just want to reiterate the fact that you're voting me for something that's not "necessarily scummy, but it's questionable."

I'm not sure what your problem with this is. Seems to me like he is saying it has the potential to be a scummy action.
... ...
Bridges is a reasonable enough wagon for D1, though I would hope we can put the brakes on a little bit until some of the more background players (ekiM, iamausername, SerialClergyman, etc) weigh in and answer some questions.
That being said, Bridges needs to claim in his next post before someone comes in with judo-quickhammer action.

I think BnB is a decent lynch, which also has the potential to provide some information.

the WIFOM, it burns me

I wouldn't use WIFOM if I was scum.

This is by far the most hilarious thing I've read all week.

Then in vote post:

I agree with inHim in post 399 about BaB's "can't post now" feeling mega-forced.
... ...

bridges: STOP RIGHT THERE! XYL COULD STILL BE SCUM WITH ME!
everyone in their right mind: now why would you say that if you were anything but scum with not xyl?

lol. I agree.
... ...
While ekiM continues to underwhelm me (his 'Do you think I was serious? x 50' post made me want to gouge my eyes out), in the interest of the town I am going to Unvote,

Vote:BridgesandBaloons

for continued scummy behavior and general flailing about without providing a single reason why his lynch is a bad thing. I think this day is starting to reach critical mass and become more and more useless. Someone hammer (maybe Herodotus wants to follow through with all this talk).

I see a very distinct lack of reasoning/conviction/pointing out the scummy behaviour, support for a claim and a L-1 vote.

-Despite finding ekiM questionable, I don't really like the harping about ekiM's "deeply concerned" post.

Um, the "1 in 5 players in a 20 player game is probably scum" thing was a joke.

I'm a bit slow, explain what was funny about it.

His only question to ekiM.

ekiM remains scummy to me until he comes back and provides some answers to the questions I put.

I'm confused why he isn't voting iamusername if he said that

I'm comfortable with my ekiM vote until he addresses the points made against him.

Prob referring to Claus case. Lack of own initiative.

I need to check more stuff later. I have a feeling he's supported suspicions to a lot of directions. Now gotta zzzzzz.

[Ojanen]

Also, does pooky always play like this? Can't meta him with search down and his linkless wiki. He's given almost nothing yet.

[Ojanen]

This will probably look pretty nonsensical but I was thinking about this game today and felt somewhat meh in a different way to my usual insecurity. I think I need to

unvote

for a sec.
Post coming in a while.

[Ojanen]

I like iamausername's post a lot.

About roflcopter, the concerning things I've been thinking without any reareading are that

-Some of his points have been far-fetched enough for me to question whether he actually believes them
example:

i get the feeling kmd/bridges found themselves in a 4 person scumgroup, assumed that the sample role pms would simply state as much and therefore presented the information. upon discovering that the sample pms actually account for up to five scum, they are both now struggling to come up with reasons why they assumed 4, with such charming excuses as "i thought there were only 16 players." really? you haven't been paying attention to the more than a month long game placement process and announcement which very clearly indicated you had been placed in a 20 person game with only people who you were interested in playing with, or at the very least were not adverse to playing with? i don't buy it.

-Throwing around the word chainsaw defence and calling most anyone who disagrees with his scum candidate their buddy doesn't feel good. Scum's nature of relation is mostly subtle. He isn't convincing me that he's actually trying to hunt for connections, it seems so crude, more like bullying people to agree with him. Because of his meta he can get away with a really a lot but he must stay hyperaggressive, I've wondered if it's constructed here.

However I liked when he ate up the elvis wagon.

I think I'm switching to back up a VP Baltar lynch. This is the point of the game where one starts to get a better picture of a bigger scope. VP would fit to a "vague scum" archetype.
His posts and points have just been so very small in a way. The majority of his posting doesn't feel like he's actually trying to construct information.
He spends the whole of day 1 saying from the sidelines that BaB is a decent lynch but never actually bringing points against him, and then agrees with a couple of points in the L-1 post and says overload of information.

What's your point? I stated my reason for voting BaB in the very post you quoted. I would have preferred ekiM or iamausername at that point, but I didn't really see that happening due to lack of anyone paying attention to anything but BaB. As I basically said in the post you quoted, I didn't find it a bad lynch, just not my main preference.

The lack of substance from you trying to find out yourself much about someone so high on your willing to lynch list is still noticeable.

I mean, even at the point wagons were BaB 6-Elvis 5 you had a catch up post and the comments you had about them

I think her attack on Kmd was pretty weak, and she acted a bit strangely when attacked in reply. I think the wagon is probably warranted to get a better read on her.

@BnB--do you feel a majority of the votes on you are merely for bandwagoning purposes and/or are the result of lazy play?

Which really isn't engaged at all. Openended like many of your points, as if to leave suspicion options open.

I think the point about the questionability of him voting the V/LA ekiM the whole time because of the early facetious comment is valid. Also him not switching to iamausername when he said he was sure username's scum, strange that read didn't overrule the early "deeply concerned" comment.

VP talking recently about SC's continued neglect here seems malicious wording after SC's current activity.

I'm not comfortable with him on the ekiM wagon. Also, unquantifiable meh feeling when playing Bach today. Those are vital .
Several people seem to be up for a Baltar wagon, anyone wanna join me? (Thesp?)

vote: VP Baltar

[Ojanen]

Preview edit:

VP talking recently about SC's continued neglect here seems malicious wording after SC's current activity.

What are you talking about?

[/quote]

I have a stronger scum read on ekiM and username, though SC's continued neglect here isn't exactly making me not want to kill him. Like I said before, I'd like to hear more actual opinions and comments from him so I can either prove or disprove my suspicion.

I think I'm switching to back up a VP Baltar lynch.

You were voting me before?
I'm sensing you feel there is a tide gathering against me and you want to get on early

.

Wasn't voting you before, don't see where I implied so.
Also, seeing my 730 where I said that wow I really don't like you from iso-perspective, I'm very tempted to call BS on the accusation of sensing tides but don't have the time right now to confirm whether there was more suspicion floating around than I remember or not.

[Ojanen]

Also, if I'm sensing tides, why detract from Mike wagon now.

[Ojanen]

I think I'm
switching to
back up
a VP Baltar lynch.

Either you're not reading properly or I'm mixing up definitions of words (ESL kid here).
Divided to separate rows for clarity.
I switched to back up.
I did not switchback.

Maybe you're his buddy. For how much you talk about him being scummy (a considerable amount more than me), you seem at ease with slipping off that wagon after it has now gained some steam.

Yeah. Real sneaky of me to contribute so much in arguments and vote him the whole day to get the wagon going and then change my mind. I'm inclined to say pfft to you (although, heh, does that make me commit the same scumtell as BaB?) but I'll let others decide if this is a reasonable point or an attempt to undermine my motivation without much substance.

re: your first quote Oj, if you look at that quote in context it very much makes sense.

The context is that rofl asks why you left the wagon. Don't see the difference.

[Ojanen]

Never knew you were there in the first place other than vaugely saying you didn't like me in iso.

The post he's referring to as vague is here, and strong language for me, btw.
viewtopic.php?p=1837257#1837257

I'm pretty excited about VP's reaction though! Like my vote.

[Ojanen]

The context is that rofl asks why you left the wagon. Don't see the difference.

I'm referring to the context of SC slipping back under the radar at that time, not the question it was in reply to. And iirc, I stated a couple times after this that I was feeling better about SC as he posted more. You're either being lazy town or selective quoting to try and pad your case.

Ummm. Baltar. the post is from

yesterday.

You said you were feeling better

before

it.
I'm loving this tone!
Can we lynch him folks, pretty please?

Yeah. Real sneaky of me to contribute so much in arguments and vote him the whole day to get the wagon going and then change my mind

Well, it is odd that you would spend so much time going after a player and then suddenly go, 'Oh, hey, I don't like baltar's contributions D1 and he's voting ekiM...so I'm going to switch.'

There was more than that. (I was starting to wonder slightly about too many people suspecting for bad reasons earlier, later I thought iamausername had good things to say, and thought about an outgoing nature re: ekiM, the attention grabbing odd fit as truly scummy or not, whether my contradiction catching was set up too much, the difference of him in a previous game where he was scum and I read you in iso and had a bad feeling etc. etc.)

[Ojanen]

Hi again. I did a superfast ninja skim of the last 10 pages or so (the whole of D2) and I'm reporting for your convenience to bring verification that this is a rubbish reaction.

I'm sensing you feel there is a tide gathering against me and you want to get on early.

Before my post 730 of pointed VP Baltar dislike on Friday, during the game whole day, the only people that had vocally suspected VP were iamausername (they had some spat 10 about pages ago), and the very popular ekiM more recently. Noone had voted VP at all. He made tajo's and elvis' neutral list and Kmd's "town I think" list.

@Yos: What do you think about Baltar?

[Ojanen]

Same question to Serial also, actually.

[Ojanen]

Your basic points are that:
1)I wasn't taking enough initiative on the BaB case to warrant voting.
~Well, so what? Every vote on a wagon doesn't need to be a bastion of original thought for it to necessary. Almost all of the large games I have played in recently have been drowned by the town not being able to come to a concensus on the lynch. I don't see a need for Day 1 to go on to 50 or 60 pages. It hurts the town overall, which is what I said when I voted. I'd rather put my vote on a wagon I think is just ok so the game can make good progress forward, than I would argue for other 20 pages trying to convince people that I am right. I have made that mistake before and it's simply frustrating. I'll ask you this as a counterpoint, had BaB lived D1, do you think the cloud of suspicion surrounding him would have gone away or been any help to the town whatsoever? You can condemn it as me being lazy, but I still say it was the proper play for the town at that time.

The thought I actually had differs from the one you answer to - it was that you were hovering around saying that he's an ok lynch twice earlier and quasi-supporting the bandwagon and supporting the claim but not having any initiative or curiosity to actually bringing up any points or arguments. Just an open door for your voting convenience.
"Day 1 shouldn't go on for 50 pages" isn't a real answer to that (note the exaggeration too). And yes, bridges probably had to die soner or later.

2) You don't like me questioning ekiM's RVS comment.
~Not the main reason I find him scummy. Iamausername likes to keep bringing this up, but I would say that since he made that comment he has several other scummy actions. I pointed out what I thought were the main points. Those are ignored to talk about the RVS comment ad nauseum.

You are only convincing me more you are scum with this.
You answer to a completely different thing here.
You voted for ekiM almost the whole of yesterday because of that comment. That is relevant. Not your case now.

And that is the extent of your "strong" accusations against me. Like I said before, I'm not arguing that my play was the best on D1, but I fail to see how the points you are bringing up are lynch worthy when there are much better targets out there (in addition to players who are simply getting free lurking passes).

Another murky description. I said my

language

was strong about disliking you in my first post about you before unvoting ekiM (to prove that you sprouted a completely false statement about the tide).
You ignored 752 which was actually the post where I more transparently try to explain why your iso felt so bad in my gut.

Now, regarding you being scummy. Honestly, I think I overreacted last night. I was tired and pissed off. You're actually one of the players that I felt was more likely town. I don't even want to keep arguing that point because it's not something I really believe. I think what is really upsetting me are that people are buying into iamausernames OMGUS attack on me.

I don't usually like to go on about OMGUS but your reaction seemed to be that in it's purest. After having been shown to have sprouted several factually false statements you try to retreat now.
I completely dislike that you try to reduce iamausername's points to OMGUS.

[Ojanen]

Charter seems to have missed that Baltar claimed vanilla.

I curse at the disabled search.
@Yos, zu_Faul, tajo, roflcopter: please kindly list the other games if any you are currently in.

[Ojanen]

VP still screams scum for me.
I thought the L-1 vote was discussed quite a lot. I don't really see how an "overload of information, ok I'll vote BaB and someone should hammer" post makes Baltar more pro-townly involved exactly.
IAUN is voting VP so sideline accusation is sloppy from charter.
Not gonna repeat myself endlessly here but

Throwing out blanket suspicion and then later saying it was a joke when called out is scummy to me. The reason I pointed out your serious vote on Xyl is that I don't see how you expect people to interpret one part as a joke and another as serious when you give no real indication of that in the post. You seem quite capable of being sarcastic when you want, so I don't see that particular post in that way. The reason I said it's insignificant now is that I pointed out several more important reasons why you are scummy, but you seem to be trying to strawman my case into this one point. That's what I don't like about it.

VP is answering again and again and again about his case today when are trying to talk about his one weak reason for voting ekiM for the vast majority of D1 in that context.

[Ojanen]

Yos, this is the second time you're on, why are you failing to comment on the pretty dramatic turn of VP related matters? Seems that you're just picking any negative comment against you from the thread and retorting to those.

[Ojanen]

@zu_Faul, can you be more precise in what you liked about SC's posting that lead you to unvoting?
I found your original reasons stated to be in a very dramatic and somewhat suspect form with the general accusations of lying and rolefishing etc. In comparison the unvote is vague.

[Ojanen]

Strike that, not original reasons but reasons you provided when tajo asked what the case is.

[Ojanen]

As a general note, if you see me posting between 5 and 6 in the morning, it means I'm making a quick 5 minute post right before I leave for work; don't expect any kind of detailed analysis or anything from those posts, it'll usually just a quick one-line response to something.

I'm on a vastly different timezone to you and won't probably have patience to regularly check what the timestamp from your perspective is.
This response isn't satisfactory though: your time doesn't explain why you didn't comment to the wagon (in fact ignored a direct question) when you were catching up the previous night and posted 3 times.
I'd still like to know the other games you're currently alive in please.

I have found Xyl to be kinda paradoxically transparent behind the nonchalant playstyle actually and I have similar thoughts about who is scummy. I disagree that he wouldn't have been scumhunting.

I don't like charter's contributions one bit today. Elvis point is weird, elvis' explanation of the vote is clearly more of a pressure one and she was, what, around 4th on the exploding wagon originally iirc.
Tunneling on Xyl and Thesp is bad. It, frankly, almost feels like he looked who didn't write a paragraph with their VP vote and picked out bits to make them look bad. I'm pretty sure similar points could be made about others ("pointless post", "set up to vote someone"), but he almost completely ignores everyone else in the commentary with post numbers. Some of it is just fluff, like "Xyl answered the question directed to Thesp in RVS". Question wasn't anything personal, just a quasi-invitiation to join a random Yos wagon which Xyl answered "yes" from his part.
Also, ekiM wagon today is "clearly scumdriven" but his suspicions haven't driven it (Xyl not on at all, Thesp on for a few hours) and he fails to look at the voters.
Also, Yos is one of the few other people commented, my post suspecting Yos is deemed good, and charter calls Yos' SC vote OMGUS, but Yos doesn't make his suspicion list.

How are Yos and VP scumbuddies at all?

What speaks against it?

SC's 844 is strangely disagreeable. I'd be interested to see if he finds this rolefishing accusation still bad if he actually checked the context of the original zu comment. I find VP scummy but the build up of the wagon was in a different timescope which would contribute to the reactions of calls to lynch.

[Ojanen]

Oj, what do you think of rofl?

Despite having jotted down a few concerns in the post I voted you, prob town.

I actually agree that SC's was the vote that looked suspect on the VP wagon due to the undermining of ekiM's case.

Rofl, why is it scummy to vote Yos at this point?

[Ojanen]

Baltar, can you give your current gameview besides suspecting ekiM and IAUN (scum/neutral/town or something more meaty to that effect)?

[Ojanen]

Yos, you speak often about OMGUS but I'm sorry, you sometimes come across as quick to judge others for suspecting you too.

Neutral (people I can't get a read on, or who I have a mixed read on)
Xylthixlm
etc.

Lessee. Scumteam is Yos, charter, VP Baltar, and... maybe tajo?

Anyway, are we going to get any, like, actual scumhunting from you any time this game, or are you going to just keep making snide remarks, unexplained votes, and random sniping at people from the sidelines?

Huh, so Yos is scum.

unvote, vote Yosarian2

Yes, that's a perfect example of the scummy and mostly useless way you've been voting and acting for most of the game. Thanks for the demonstration.

----

The only real reasoning he gave for all this was a process of elimination things; "These players look town, and I'm willing to lynch anyone else". Which is fine, I like process of elimination, but I would still expect town-Xyl to have SOME preference about which of the "others" he wants to lynch. It dosn't seem like he does.
And, when I point this out, his reaction is to OMGUS vote me. Which, interestingly, is basically the only vote all game that breaks the "wait for someone else to attack and then follow up" pattern.

I'm not really seeing it as an OMGUS based on the order of the dialogue from his part, and it seemed to make you suspect him a lot more.

It has seemed to me more like Xyl often bandwagons to scumhunt rather than scumhunts and then votes.
His unvotes have not been groupthink and have been one thing that has made me feel better about him, and I have been imagining to be able to see the townhunting through the lines. I don't have time to really iso him right now, but you left out an independent vote on me D1 out at least.
Anyway, I guess I have a wary mousey towngut on Xyl.

---

Although I'm disappointed at Ojanen.

:puppyeyes:

Gotta run, more later.
Haven't read few last posts.

[Ojanen]

so many posts, so little time and so much to disagree on.

How are Yos and VP scumbuddies at all?

What speaks against it?

That's not how this works, have you been going to Xylschool of nonexistant scumhunting? (joke) But seriously, I don't see how they are connected at all, can you enlighten me?

Apparently I have. This is a totally strange question. 2 shady characters do not have to have a positive connection to be buddies. Counting out scumbuddy possibilities works only the other way, with canceling out options through attacks. Scum has a motive for not being connected in an unnatural way.

More Xyl votes. How can anyone think he looks town after him and Yos's back and forth? Xyl's Yos votes have been terrible, as have all of his votes. Xyl is scum! It is obvious.

It is not obvious to me at all.
Screw the wariness of my townread. I'm vehemently opposed of lynching Xyl at this point. I do have a towngut and Xyl's suspicions mirrored mine without me saying mine aloud. I'm not used to playing with the hugely experienced crowd but I'm gonna ignore some paranoia for now.
There are several people going "yeah, the VP case is pretty strong and I don't like his reaction so I might vote him...but wait, o'boy, I noticed Xyl is totally scummy."
I think the "votes are terrible" accusation is based on the premise of a more standard playstyle. My interpretation, as I said, was that it has seemed to me more like Xyl often bandwagons to scumhunt rather than scumhunts and then votes. Townies, look at the unvotes if you want to see part of what gives me a towngut.

I also fail to understand how the main case against me is that my scumhunting yesterday wasn't satisfactory while Xyl gets away with that garbage labeled as town.

Bleurgh. Things are more subtle. Even when not paying attention, Xyl was more involved.

I agree with almost everything ekiM is answering to VP. Except the vanilla claim stuff which I'm not sure about argumentwise.
I really wish people will actually read the parts ekiM and VP Baltar are arguing about, the references to Baltar's day 1 reason to vote ekiM the whole day etc.
Baltar, we were not in the middle of a heated debate when you suspected me of being ekiM's buddy. I voted you and posted a case of some sorts (first vote on you, also). You responded immediately by suspecting me of being scum.

elvis. I want you to stop ignoring the thing presented directly to you in at least 910, 792, 799 and say why you would think Baltar was anyhow townishly involved with the BAB vote.

I explained my problem with Xyl, Ojanen. It has nothing to do with OMGUS. In fact, I stated my problem with his votes, and then HE voted ME in response to my suspicion on him. His reaction to me attacking him was to vote me, and to then refuse to give any reasons at all for his vote. Was I supposed to back off because he was voting me?
Anyway, this is really a distraction. My problem with Xyl is a constant pattern of voting that seems completely devoid of any real scum hunting on his part, or any reasons of his own for any of his votes, and especially for the way he seems to not actually KNOW why he's voting anyone. Everything he's done today just looks like scummy opportunism

Did you read what I quoted?
You name Xyl neutral.
Xyl names you among the people he thinks are scum.
Then YOU suspected HIM in response to the scumlist.
Then he voted you.
Don't pretend part of your written concerns wasn't that the only proactive vote (except Pooky) was an OMGUS on you.
P.S. I know wat you say, I know, changing your mind is pro-town according to your school of thinking right?
I can still remark that your read changed from neutral/mixed to "Everything he's done today just looks like scummy opportunism" at the same time as he started expressing serious suspicion of you.

I want to lynch VP Baltar.
I'm wary of Yos, and actually tajo.
I don't understand charter at the moment.

I'm traveling to Italy tomorrow. I should be able to find an internet connection but I'm gonna be under high pressure so I might have to take some days.

V/LA until Saturday at the latest

.

[Ojanen]

"Votes are terrible"? Is that really what you think my case against Xyl is?

It was more or less charters crystallisation of his iirc.
No time to actually respond, now I really go.
Maybe good that I'm away for a bit. What do I know in the end. Gah.

[Ojanen]

I found a computer. Limited access though for at least a week.
Good thing too. This game is totally depressing.
We re apparently close lynching the guy I m quite positive is town over the guy who is insanely scummy if one actually looks at all the dodges and turns. My scumreads plus the VP himself were the people who turned this around.
Elvis is too insane, I think my townread has gone to hell.
"VP Baltar's wagon went too fast for him to be town" is an extremely crappy argument. Motivation, people, scum and town, think, dont sheep please.
Blah.

[Ojanen]

YEESH!
I would have been heartbroken if Baltar had survived.
This was my favorite game yet, although I was so pissed when Xyl was getting lynched that I actually wanted to physically violate my laptop.
Great job, guys.