Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[SpyreX]

Sup, replacement in the house (not even sure who I replaced yet).

I'll be playing catchup now.

[SpyreX]

Up to page 28 and I swear if you haven't killed Mastin the "OHH GOD I AM SO SCUM IT IS OOZING FROM MY PORES" I will kill a kitten.

There are others.

[SpyreX]

Another note:

Seriously. Follow me here.

Megaposts are like chocolate. They are nice every once in a while.

Instead, we have a bunch of fat babies who probably can't roll over anymore. My lord almighty. GET ON A TREADMILL

[SpyreX]

@Rofl, Lowell, Faraday, Empkings Alt, Mufasa via 34-35:

WHAT IN THE HELL?

Not all 5 of you can be scum. No way.

What in the hell was that. Seriously.

[SpyreX]

Ohh Zaz was scum what a surprise there

We hath a pro-town killing role as well. Guaranteed.

[SpyreX]

I swear to god if ckool is the lynch kittens on the other side of the UNIVERSE will tremble in preparation for the kicks coming.

[SpyreX]

Ohh hay look at that he's the vig. MORE SURPRISES 'in ON IN

[SpyreX]

:O Well I'll be damned I thought for sure Mastin/Zaz were going to be the same group.

That doesn't change TOO much but kills my "swarm tactics theory" a little.

[SpyreX]

I'm still catching up you silly goose(geese). I'm on 61.

I have SHOCKING REVELATIONS when I'm done.

No kidding those shouldn't be huge piles of super information - they are just the most obvious notes as I'm going along.

[SpyreX]

... Wicked is the mason partner?

God damnit.

(note this means I believe Hayker and THROWS OUT a ton of my ideas)

[SpyreX]

... TWO neighbor sets and masons?

The secret 4th neighbor is scum. Hands down.

[SpyreX]

Alrighty I'm all caught up on this pile of madness.

And I think this one is an easy win with a little bit of NOT BITING EACH OTHER IN THE FACE.

Megatown:

Hayker - by reason of claim ONLY
Wickedestjr - by reason of claim ONLY
Kublai Khan - if you are actually scum I'd eat a hat.
Rolfcopter - Yea, thats right.
Kmd4390 - OHH SHI BOTH OF YOU ARE TOWN NO WAI

Leaning Town:

Xyl - I don't agree with all of his stances but I

understand

them.
Molestargazer - The claim and the way it went down gives me a town vibe.

Neutral which at almost 70 pages in I don't like:

CKD
Faraday

Leaning Scum:

SC - Could be either. Leaning Vermillion. Probably a PR.

THESE ARE SCUM:

Namttam - Cerulean, to be precise. I'll pull out the super best case if I have to but seriously.
Lowell - Vermillion. Probably a goon.

Vote: Namttam

---------

You have your scum on both sides doing their best interpretation of a babbling brook that went on WAY too long. However, no way in hell are all the scum going to be that active.

Further, you've got captain "hanging out away from the actual lynch wagons" coupled with the worst case of lurkeritist and no new informational sniping I've seen in a while.

Coast to coast is the name of both these hombres and both are scum - and I doubt they are together.

[SpyreX]

I could see neighbor, I suppose. Since that is in essence a "goon" anywho. I'd be surprised if he is an actual PR.

I'd much rather see Nam go because 4/4 could be but I still lean 3/3 which means that if I'm right we collapse a NK tonight.

[SpyreX]

Possible, but not probable.

I'd put heavy money on if we lynched up my list the game would end before we got anywhere near Xyl.

[SpyreX]

We'll just have to agree to disagree for now. On everything but Nam. Who is scum.

So... you think we have six town masons/neighbors and six scum? Seriously?

No, we have two masons and 4 vanillas that have extra reason to be suspicious of each other with good reason because one of them is a scum.

Masons when used right are a VERY powerful tool. Normally they're like extra scum though in the games I've been so privileged to see them in.

Neighbors? Blah. I've not yet had this misfortune nor do I want it.

[SpyreX]

Well thats what I'm leaning towards so I assumed it was at me.

It - COULD- be 4/4 (33%) but 3/3 (25%) considering the rest of the setup still makes more sense to me.

[SpyreX]

.... touche.

[SpyreX]

Its so beautiful. So delicious.

[SpyreX]

That's just because you guys read Charter's playstyle as being scummy.

Partially. Thats not the only game I was talking about though.

[SpyreX]

spy- His running dialogue of catching up is horrible. In my case, I'm reading through while staring at a list of dead players and their roles. He's trying to look town by doing it "blind" and seeming like he doesn't have anything or anyone to protect.

No I was trying to give honest assesments as I saw them of LIVING players. You'll notice the already-dead don't appear in my town or scumlists. Unlike Spy, who wants us all to see how town he thinks ckool is.

My "running dialogue" was for my amusement versus anything else.

1.) Mastin was rediculously scummy. Like, I'm surprised he wasn't the day 1 lynch AND I do need to go back and look at who alive derailed the wagon IF I am wrong about Nam (which I'm not).

2.) Zaz was doing her best impersonation of the contentless-whirlwind that Mastin was doing. In fact, I had money down on Mastin-Zaz-Wicked scumgroup until further along in my read (and Zaz being a different group). Not to mention a throwaway vote on a claimed miller ffs.

3.) Ckool couldn't have been more obviously the vig unless he changed his avatar. Looking at that whole dialogue explaining the n0 shot was a no brainer.

Of course this leads us to:

I'm an Emerald Townie. No magic role to save me unfortunately. I still would like to hear reasons for everyone's votes on me, please don't hammer before that. I have nothing to respond to. So that means SC, Kmd, SpyreX, Xyl, and KK. Could I get reasons for your votes? (Not so much Xyl since I already understand your reason) I think all the scum are already on my wagon so the remaining town don't hammer until we hear some reasons.

You've played to live, not to find scum. You've actively avoided the major wagons. You've, ultimately, posted just enough to avoid being a true lurker but SAID very little all game.

Additionally, there is a very perverse dynamic with you and Mastin.

Yea, I'm comfortable with this.

[SpyreX]

Alrighty. You want details? Fine.

Strap on your helmets, because we are going to delve into the darkest corners of the psyche. We shall not leave unscathed.

Finally caught up. I was afraid Mastin would come back and start posting again before I finished.

Mastin's wall of text annoys me to no end but there is nothing inherently scummy about it. Since it is his MO it is a null tell. At least it has sparked discussion rather quickly. Dissecting his posts, it is mostly fluff but there is some scum hunting buried in there. I'll consider him pro-town for now.

rolfcopter is tunneling. I have no problem with this. I do have a problem with his citing of single cases to prove his points on tunneling and scum calling. Furthermore, there are differing viewpoints on the miller roleclaim so there is no reason to quash the debate. Anytime players want to make a stand on a topic provides information for the town to work with. Leaning scum.

Hayker opens by committing and pointing out his own scumtell. He takes issue with rolf's quick push from RVS even while complimenting rolf's reasoning. RVS is necessary to spark discussion but with Mastin around RVS doesn't need to be too long. There was already plenty to comment on. This is no reason to believe a player to be scum and Hayker should move on. He as made enough posts without moving beyond this initial issue and for that I Vote: Hayker.

Working my way forward, more coming.

Lets break this down paragraph-style.

1:
-- You say Mastin annoys you but there is nothing scummy about it.
---- IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH you say it is mostly fluff.
-- You preemptively give a meta-shield for this
-- You also shrug it off as "sparking discussion"
-- Your end result is pro-town. Not null, not anything else. Pro-town.

2:
-- You say you have no problems with rofl tunneling.
---- You then proceed to attack his rationale FOR tunneling.
-- You then snipe the whole miller business.
-- Your end result is leaning scum
BONUS POINTS: Who is rofl attacking? Are they, in fact, a scum PR?

3:
-- You then twist Haykers statement of "I know this is considered a scumtell" to "I am actively and purposefully committing said scumtell"
-- Mad props again to Mastin for his "moving out of the RVS"

Johnny Rotten's last post is a terrible one. Advocating the lynch of a player you don't think is scum is wrong. Furthermore, he holds off on voting on it because he wants to hear how others feel is fear of commitment, which both interferes with forming lasting relationships and is a scum tell.

Achilles is likely going to be lurking.

MafiaMann is having a ScumDay! But in addition to that he seems preoccupied with theorizing about the game setup. May try to active lurk. His response to ckool's "lol" tell and his hesitance to get involved with scum hunting support this.

Who is Johnny planning to vote for?
Does Johnny say that person is town... or that it could be the right move

regardless of alignment

?

Two setup snipes for altering wagons without commitment to either noted.

Well not like this trend is going to continue right?

I'm going to Unvote. Vote: Johnny Rotten. First, for not pulling the trigger and voting for Mastin. Second, for suggesting that lynching a townie is a good thing for a town. It makes much more sense to be scum hunting and lynching the most suspicious players instead of the most distracting. Third, if Mastin was the talk of the day then why just ask for more people to comment on him, why not raise some new questions? Fourth, suggesting voting is a scum tell, you specify the early stages of the game but I think that doesn't make the statement anymore valid. And finally... you used "lol" even after it was specifically mentioned as a scum tell in this game.

More of the same "lynching town" and because he didn't vote for Mastin. Again with "distracting" != "being scum".

And, this deserves its own line... he's pushing lol as a scumtell because someone else said it was.

Does that bespeak real issue? I think not.

Things die down some. So lets move down the road:

The JR wagon is useless when there is no JR. I was voting him to get him to talk more but with him gone there is no reason for this. I'm going to Unvote. Vote: Kublai Khan. KK responses to Zaz's questioning make's this an easy decision. Why would a resent PM clarify his role if he already had it?

The first quote shows that KK already had the PM, the second shows that the answer to the question(will I turn up as scum at death?) was already in the role PM. If this was true then there would have been no need to ask for more information.

Unvote. Vote: Kublai Khan. Proven scum. If you don't know why go read my logic in a previous post.

So, now we move to a miller claim. Sahweet.

Mastin could be scum. Some of your points do have merit,i.e. his parsing has allowed him make some things appear scummier than they were. However, having been in the game for a short while, you are making yourself guilty of misrepping just as you accused him of doing(see post 749 before you deny it). More over, your appeal to other players dislike of mastin's post style is a incredibly suspicious play. You are using it to further your desire to get him lynched because your case is not as strong as you would like. I would vote for you before I vote for Mastin, however I'm leaving my vote on KK because I believe my logic is solid.

Mastin could be scum, but he's not because somehow VP is scum. Note: this also includes a very strong "taking sides" in the argument that is later proven to be town vs scum.. without actually doing it.

Last post I promise. That is already four people responding to VP's push on Mastin. Three of which did not post any reasons,(MM kinda did but seemed to imply he was voting for his post style). If anyone is trying to take advantage of sheep it is VP. Encouraging voting without reasons encourages play which provides little information, and is definitely not a town move.

Accussing VP of herding the "sheep" to lynch Mastin? Check.

Was it you who used the shotgun analogy? Throwing out of bunch of points, some of which are scummy and others which are not at all doesn't make your case stronger. It makes you more suspicious. You avoided the issue I was questioning which was you asking people to vote because Mastin's posts are long.

More defense of Mastin. Further, this is the dismissal of VP's case as "Mastin's posts are long."

Yes. I believe Mastin has done more than an adequate job of countering most of those points which would actual make me vote for him. I believe their are better lynch targets than him.

Nice and clear. Note - not that Mastin is town. Just better lynch targets.

Like the miller.

I take a day off from posting and am called out for it.

It seems like either no one agrees that KK is obvscum or they feel like hoping a NK is used on him. Since this is the case I'll reluctantly move on.

Unvote. Vote: VP Baltar. SC already hit the nail on the head. I was suspicious of your play when you were pushing your Mastin wagon. Now your inconsistency in behavior towards your MM wagon is suspicious as well. You then side step this issue rather than addressing it with this post.

That argument is ridiculous. Fact is you didn't add anything new against MafiaMann when you switched your vote to him and afterwards. Pressure does something if you are asking questions and looking for responses, which you gave no indication of doing. That entire post was just you trying sidestep the issue which SC raised.

More of the same.

Welp, lets look at day 2:

Just because my case sucks doesn't make you town. You got me on the lazy part though, I couldn't find the time for this game during the week but I'm caught up now. The obvious suspect from the flip is ckool as everyone and their mother has realized. I've never played with Zaz before so I don't know if she typically watches out for her partners or would tend to try to buddy with town. I had a town reading on ckool before the flip so I would lean toward the latter explanation being true. However when you take into account ckool's behavior towards Zaz ckool's situation becomes even worse. So in the end I have to conclude that ckool is likely to be a scum partner of Zaz.
Mastin. I was on his side all of yesterday because I felt his post style was making him an easy lynch target when I got a town read from him. Zaz's flip paints him in a poor light. Zaz's indifference to Mastin who was a large object of discussion says a lot more to me than Mastin's obvious buddying to Zaz. I have to add him to my suspect list.
Zaz's flip doesn't negate the case against KK but that's a dead horse since no one wants to vote the claimed miller.
I don't like rofl at all. I find it incredibly contradictory that he will policy not vote a claimed miller but will vote a claimed role-blocker.
Some other suspicions I'll throw out there are Wickedestjr and still Achilles.
For now I think I will Unvote, Vote: roflcopter

@rofl-could you explain to me why it is wrong to lynch the claimed miller but correct to lynch the claimed roleblocker?

The last line alone should be plenty. However, now that with Zaz scum and their whole dance putting Mastin in an even WORSE (albeit wrong) light time comes to make him a suspect. Lets see how that plays out.

Note: He says mastin is a suspect right here.

....

Ohh wait he's not mentioned again until after the lynch. In fact, there's one more whole post between then and the end of day. Funny how that works.

Note: that is 23 of his 34 posts. Of the rest, 6 occur after I replace in in direct response to the wagon.

TLDR:

"BUT SPYREX, TOWN CAN MAKE BAD READS AND FOLLOW THEM THROUGH RIGHT??'

Yes, in fact, they can. And do. However, there's one more big piece to this relationship that is key.

Nam talks about Mastin a lot. A real lot. A huge chunk of his posts.

He talks over, under, between and around Mastin.

But never, ever, ever TO Mastin.

Now, how does that work?

[SpyreX]

Of course its true Xyl because they're scum together seriously now lets not belabor this and get the party started.

[SpyreX]

Ohh hay hows it going? Not even gonna bother saying anything about what I said?

Good.

[SpyreX]

No hay that wasn't directed at you. That was at Nam. Unfortunate lapse in word choice on my part.

As for the WIFOM bit - I am all for USING it correctly. However, as a defense for scummy behavior not one bit.

[SpyreX]

Ohh and Hay I dont understand what you mean in 1823 at all. Please explain.

[SpyreX]

Its late and I'm just checkin in but real quick:

No, I didn't read the first post because I find it a lot more useful to read it fresh AND then see the connections. Thus:

1.) It was space-obvious Mastin was scum.
--- No matter what silliness you want to bring, that has nothing to do with MafiaMann. The only issue with his lynch was the fact it was NOT LYNCHING MASTIN WHO OPTED TO HAVE SIRENS GOIN BEOOO BEOOO.

2.) It was also fairly obvious CKool was vig. Seriously. Go read his whole business with the N0 kill and see the shock and or awe.

3.) As Xyl mentioned, the two things I commented on most were: 1.) When my reads were proven right and 2.) When my reads were proven absolutely wrong.

So, your little bulleted list:

1.) MafiaMann != Mastin. I was making it very clear that MASTIN was scum. Simple. You could have lynched Zaz and had a scum flip and that wouldn't have changed the fact Mastin was super scumbolina.
2.) That isn't a function of MafiaMann being town as much as the weakest fattest no explanation wagon I've seen in a LONG while.
3.) Zazie's no surprise with the flip isn't a piece of key deduction. Good gravy.
4.) With -Mufasa- dying there was no doubt we have a vig. No one kill would have made that more obvious.
5.) Ckool was getting strung up on absolute garbage. This after it being fairly obvious he was beating over the head he killed Konowa well.
6.) See 5.

Not tough.

I raise you this though:

Lets say you WERE right and I read it and pretended I am superawesome man in a proven two scum group setup if I am scum.

Wouldn't I just be setting myself up for a NK?

As an aside:

<3 Xyl.

[SpyreX]

God I started actually working on a long post detailing this but:

1.) Lets say I decided to lie about it - what good does that actually serve?
2.) I find the issues I mentioned to a.) not be inclusive of everything going on and b.) not be 100% right
3.) This is very, very bothersome when we have dual wagons pushing to lynch and is suspect thusly.

[SpyreX]

1) Note you didn't say 'as scum' at the end of that question. I'm not really sure is the answer. I imagine you could use it to give further weight to the rest of your claims.. I read the game brilliantly so far, so listen to me now. It's not hugely powerful, but I could turn that question on you and say assume truth - what good does it do then for you as town?
2) I think the issues you mentioned before being called on it were most of the major issues from the early part of the game and were all 100% right.
3) Sorry, what? What does the fact we have competing wagons have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that we have to ignore anything we might find suspicious that comes from anyone other than the two major wagons?

1.) Because I wanted the answer as both sides. You're saying I'm lying and I'm asking that even if that WERE true what machinations does it serve. Being able to retroactively read a game doesn't mean anything unless once I'm in and moving I can put together a case that makes sense.
2.) If those are the only major issues than sure. However, see 1. Additionally I never said MafiaMann was super-town. He wasn't. HOWEVER, when you watch 5 people jump ship without even pretending to explain why in rapid succession you

should

get a lot less comfortable with the lynch.
3.) Ignore no. However I brought this up because I thought you were one of the non-voters and was going to go onto a tirade about derailing wagons but that doesn't appear to be the case so keep on keepin' on.

@SpyreX - Could you please explain what in particular it was about Rofl and Kmd that gave you a "Megatown" vibe?

Well, you have rofl who shotgunned down Mastin and didn't let go - which as a RB makes minimal sense for a bus. Then the miller discussion - and, really, the ebb and flow of posting makes sense with how the game has went.

KMD, on the other hand this game manages to have pretty much entirely different reads on me with this game but does back him up. Further, the shoot me or him with rofl only would be a net scum gain IF rofl was scum. All other scenarios would be a disaster for KMD-scum and Rofl-town. (Note: this means that if I am turbo wrong and BOTH KMD and ROFL are scum then kudos. )

@SpyreX - How can WIFOM be used 'correctly'? An example please?

Check out Kirby Mafia (from my wiki)for a great end-game example but I will try to summarize:

5-man game - we have one player who due to the game is all but confirmed town (KMD). We have another that is fairly confirmed(Bio). Leaving three of us left.

Somehow, Bio managed to not claim during the massclaim shenanigai. Now, instead of claiming and moving ahead he actively opts not to to give the scum the worst kind of WIFOM - do they kill the confirmed town (KMD) risking leaving a PR alive at 3-way lylo or do they try and shut down the "possible" PR knowing that if they are wrong and he is just a vanilla they have just put the game into KMD's hands.

Now, thats the kind of WIFOM I like. Not a subset of "I did this scummy thing and am retroactively defending myself via WIFOM".

[SpyreX]

Yes, Khan is town. Pretty sure.

I'm up in the air about SC now only because of the timing. The only way it really makes sense to me is if SC is scum with Xyl and that just isn't floatin right.

However, that aside, totally fine with Lowell.

Vote: Lowell

[SpyreX]

"Claiming is easy. Crafting a good fakeclaim takes a lifetime."

Or, in this case, until Sunday.

[SpyreX]

May I also reserve smugness points? That'd be sweeeet.

As for lowell. It goes without saying that this better be good. Real good.

And the masons think I'm scummy because one of the mafia groups started making "better" kills?

And SC thinks I'm scummy because I'm not overly prolific.... but ckd is town?

Questions within questions. Sandwiches for all.

[SpyreX]

Ohh swish.

Can we get the hammer plox?

P.S. I'm not going over this whole "running narration is a LIE for ? reasons" again.

[SpyreX]

Now don't get me wrong - I'm all for the SC lynch.

However, in a game with two scumgroups justification for moving off a lynch by finding others ON the lynch scummy doesn't float as hot - especially when process of elimination suggests that Lowell could be the last member of a group.

I.E. - Lowell is still a very good lynch that doesn't clear ANYONE else on it.

[SpyreX]

Yo' Xyl:

See my comments about the Lowell wagon. Are there other reasons to derail?

[SpyreX]

Neighbor isn't -really- a power role. And it would fit with the 3/4 idea I've had chug chug chuggin' along.

Eliminating a kill is pretty high up on my list of "these are reasons to kill scum".

Partner that with the fact I am more sure he is, in fact, scum well.

[SpyreX]

I'm seeing the AHAH! but I'm not seeing the conclusion.

What scum scenario are you looking at CKD?

The ONLY one that would make sense as a scum move would be Lowell / Xyl as partners - but even then why in the hell would you start a bus and then jump off of it in a cloud of smoke?

[SpyreX]

I'm not gonna meta. Not my style yo'.

However, I do want an answer. What is the connection?

[SpyreX]

This is not a case of WIFOM - unless you are making the argument that town and scum would both get a case of what in the hell from this maneuver.

I somehow smelled that would be the answer you'd give and I hath not be impressed.

[SpyreX]

Are you trying to play semantics with me?

Of course its a "maneuver". I see it thus far as town trying to find scum.

I'm asking what the scum motivation for said maneuver would be.

[SpyreX]

Damnit Xyl don't break the golden rule because I think you're town and I'd REALLY rather lynch not you for this mess.

[SpyreX]

Xyl - I'm in total agreement. The golden rule was simply: if they ask to be lynched, you lynch them.

[SpyreX]

I do think you're scum, and I do think you're making up bullshit, but it doesn't follow that I should vote you.

Hey SpyreX, could you unvote Lowell and vote SerialClergyman? Thanks.

Anytime bro'

Unvote, Vote: SerialClergyman

[SpyreX]

Damnit

Unvote, Vote: SerialClergyman

[SpyreX]

Ohh masons, what can't you do.

[SpyreX]

Lowell has done absolutely nothing to try to quell any of that suspicion, and Xyl's defence of him only makes me more convinced that if they're scum together

I do think you're scum, and I do think you're making up bullshit, but it doesn't follow that I should vote you

I still don't think I ever got a solid answer as to why Scum-Xyl would have setup a wagon made it go choo choo then jumped off so everyone else could go WTF.

I mean dag, yo.

[SpyreX]

I'm still not seeing how that makes the fairly obvious "Ohh hey, all the OTHER chuckleheads I think are scum jumped all over this and its late enough a bus isn't gonna make a whole lot of sense UHOH"

[SpyreX]

I'm still not seeing how that makes the fairly obvious "Ohh hey, all the OTHER chuckleheads I think are scum jumped all over this and its late enough a bus isn't gonna make a whole lot of sense UHOH"

[SpyreX]

I'm mos def not "confirmed" town by any means. However, that doesn't change the fact that I AM town.

Yea, I've been "buddying" with Xyl insofar as that I've agreed with him about Lowell and SC. Which I did before this even came up.

I'm not down with CKD at the moment. I am more than content with Lowell xor SC.

[SpyreX]

[quote="SC']After a quick re-read of recent events I think it'd be good if the masons and KK could take a more active role to try to lead the town. I think most if not all of the remaining group are happy to accept these players as town (maybe not KK, but definitely the masons) and it might help to get past this logjam. [/quote]

Just amazing right here. Allow me to paraphrase because ohh does this deserve it:

"Would the people currently NOT voting for me that the town feels are town be more vocal so that I don't end up lynched."

Just wanted that nice and clear.

[SpyreX]

And the fact you called out three people who weren't voting for you to "fix this logjam" doesn't bespeak any kind of self-preservation at all?

Well of COURSE I switched my vote simply because Xyl asked me to and not because of anything you said. I mean, we're secret BFF's and all. In fact, I pretty much just wait for Xyl to tell me what to do and have given up on reading this game at all.

I AM XYLBOT. BOW BEFORE ME.

Ohh snape.

[SpyreX]

Allow me to elucidate:

1.) Everyone should be playing. Calling out the "town" players to lead a wagon is silly at best because although they are confirmedish by nature doesn't mean they are going to inherently be better at "finding the scum wagon". Which leads us to:

2.) Calling out three specific people who, by nature of their confirmation, hold a little more swing to get in the game would be fine if not for the fact it is serving as self-preservation.

Additionally, you aren't "trying to get your top suspect lynched" by that move. You didn't push them to go for your case or any - you simply said be more active. Consdering they are spread out on every wagon but, well, you, the "being more active" would mean pushing any of the above wagons which aren't you.

This is self-preservation, pure and simple. And you're not even being honest about that part of it.

[SpyreX]

To lead implies others would follow. And, based on there votes, its not a stretch of the imagination to assume where they would lead.

I argued with Xyl about it until you used some classic double speak which I quoted when I switched my vote.

Self-preservation, in general, is going to be more scummy than not because with one giant exception a scum lynch hurts scums chances to win a whole lot more than a town lynch does town.

[SpyreX]

No, its more because you went "I think you're scum but you're telling me to vote for you so AHAHAH trap sprung" which makes no sense.

Faraday is hiding under the radar and that's is lame.

Xyl's "cronies' I think would amount to...me. Which is even awesomer considering you being ok with being CKD's other arm and/or saying this whole court is out of order for the idea of buddying.

[SpyreX]

Because the neighbor status / your play would implicate you as scum and not town?

@SC:

You're still holding onto Xyl bussing the hell out of his partner / jumping off the wagon which still makes the least sense of the combinations.

You've said that Xyl is scum independantly of Lowell yet are pushing for lowell.

I still think Lowell is scummy, but you reactions to this are scummier.

[SpyreX]

Its not a simple function of "gaining traction".

Xyl said pretty clearly that it was the type of traction - the fact that the other players he felt were scummy jumped all over that wagon that made him take a pause.

Which, makes sense.

However, scum pushing on a buddy and then not following through to get the "cred" for starting the wagon? not as likely to me.

[SpyreX]

Good gravy I'm starting to go around the horn to thinking both of you are town and this is an amazing case of "worlds greatest townfights"

[SpyreX]

Oddly enough if BOTH of you are town which is where I'm starting to lean than I might be far more content with a Lowell lynch.

[SpyreX]

It's real hard to quantify but rereading and watching the natural extension of these talks you both have a very "genuine" feel.

Xyl's logical paths every step of the way make absolute sense to me as town.

The methods of your argument and, get this, the confusion around Xyl after sitting back and really processing it make sense as town.

UNDER THIS THEORY:

Lowell feels like a bette lynchr.

KMD and CKD both become far more plausible.

Faraday is still a nutter.

[SpyreX]

Hmm doing some rereading I've come across something very interesting I'd like cleared up and fast before deadline.

@Faraday:

Why are you so confident that CKD is town? In most of your lists and/or any "town" references CKD is either omitted entirely or put at "probably town".

This becomes even more interesting when you look at CKD's interactions with Faraday.

@CKD:

Lowell is scummy because of his play or lack thereof. The "breadcrumb" doesn't matter near as much as the lack of substance this game.

And nutter just means that his play doesn't make sense. Not "scummy" doesn't make sense... just doesn't connect right.

SO, anywho:

Unvote

Looking at our player list:
SpyreX
Lowell
curiouskarmadog
Kmd4390
Xylthixlm
Faraday
Hayker
Kublai Khan
SerialClergyman
Wickedestjr

Considering Hayker, Wicked and KK are "clear" and after the whole exchange I am not comfortable with an SC lynch and Xyl being town and me being buttered awesome we are left with:

Lowell
CKD
KMD
Faraday

OF this group I am actually comfortable with any lynch. I'm gettin that gut itch that Faraday-CKD are partners and one of Lowell/KMD is the other. The issue, of course, is it the person who has played scummy or the person who stopped playing.

[SpyreX]

I want to see the response due to the prod.

@Mod: If the prod is slow / results in a replacement does this alter the deadline?

[SpyreX]

We have 23 hours.

Unvote, Vote: CKD

I prefer this slightly to Lowell. However, if will freely shift my vote back to stop a NL.

[SpyreX]

I'm not sure what you're looking for.

I prefer CKD by a slight margin. I would hammer the hell out of Lowell though.

I'd rather not play footsies with this and get it done sooner versus later.

[SpyreX]

Answer the above real, real fast.

And of the pro-town roles you've mentioned the neighbors are nothing, the miller well...

[SpyreX]

I'm totally fine with this lynch after this debacle of a claim.

[SpyreX]

My issue is twofold:

With a claim like that the most important part would be who you hid behind. DOUBLY so if they are still alive. Not giving that information quickly is a very scummy move.

The comparison to Lowell's "Give me a week to claim vanilla" business (which is still scummy) to this somehow trying to implicate KMD.

So, together, yea, happy with the lynch. I do want CKD to respond though just so we have some more information to parse before night (hint: this means I'm not planning to move my vote)

[SpyreX]

Actually you may have just bought yourself another night.

If its every two nights unless you did something VERY weird you can hide tonight.

Hide behind a mason. Either one, dont care, dont say.

You die and no masons die, masons are scum pulling the awesomest gambit.

You die and a mason dies the other is confirmed.

A mason dies and you dont... well, we deal with that if it happens.

Its late enough that even the other side can't let you live much longer.

So, back around for the fifth time.

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

Xyl I know you're not down with this lynch but we need it to happen.

SC, you too.

[SpyreX]

Damnit all.

Just... damnit.

[SpyreX]

... Actually I was checking my other games and had a total moment of epiphany how to use your role / catch your ass if you were lying and posted it as fast as I could.

It just happened to be too late.

[SpyreX]

Ohh thats right KK unvoted.

SC, get on Lowell asap.

We have this.

[SpyreX]

I guess not I just know I'm getting close to bedtime and I sure want to know we've got L-1 lined up so there is no funny business in case I miss deadline in the morning.

But I'll stay up for a few if you can parse out something obvious I'm missing with the above.

[SpyreX]

Unless CKD is playing games within games the "I thought I was hammered" rings town (or you think CKD and I are scum together playing at something).

Regardless, what do you think about what I laid out for CKD tonight? It clears up something the scum for whatever reason have been real itchy to not do as well as, depending, deal with the CKD issue.

I'm tired though and it looks like the fun excitement has died. CKD is not the right call for tonight now.

[SpyreX]

Consider this 15 minutes.

[SpyreX]

If the masons are masons they will die soon. Its a given.

If the masons are pulling a gambit this means that CKD-scum, unless the numbers are way off, is not scum with them so his "hide" behind them would be a death.

If CKD is town this is forcing the scum to pull a move they didn't want to do yet in trying to hit masons at this point. Especially when its so choreographed investigative AND protective roles that exist will be all over them.

I'm seeing far more upside than downside from this regardless.

[SpyreX]

And I'll lay it out like thus:

If Lowell flips Cerulean I'd put hard money on Faraday-Kmd being the Vermillions.

If Lowell flips Vermillion I'm really not sure. I'd have to go back and REALLY give Xyl another read.

If Lowell flips town I'd be a little flabbergasted.

Its past bedtime though. I had to spellcheck like 10 words in this post.

[SpyreX]

... Huh.

Is it just me that finds it weird that Lowell looks more and more like a Cerulean and if so that puts the hard knock life on KMD-Faraday BUT KMD still throws the hammer?

Ohh man I need a flip

[SpyreX]

BTW In Twillight Faraday said he was scum. Just member that.

[SpyreX]

If its a pro-grade lie then of course.

Keep in mind this doesn't clear CKD 100% but enough that I'm not down with the lynch today.

My comment about Faraday was in reference to 2285. However, with Lowell actually BEING town I don't know what the hell.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX, out of (Kmd, curiouskarmadog, Faraday, SerialClergyman), who do you think is town?

Now, see, we have a conundrum of sorts.

CKD is a wildcard but unless its some KK-scum, CKD-scum SUPER GAMBIT (which would be awesome FYI). I'm going to buy it.

SC feels more and more town.

I still see KMD-Faraday connections and after rethinking a millionth time I still dont like Faraday's night comment (I was thinking of it as scum bussvoting but it sure as hell could be scum thinking they nailed other-scum).

I'm also, with Lowell being town, a little more worried about Xyl.

If it was two seconds to hammer and everyone was at L-1 right now I'd vote Faraday or KMD. Leaning Faraday by a small margin.

[SpyreX]

Its a niggling feeling - you're still town jsut a little worried but allow me to try and parse it out:

Xyl-scum comes out and sets up a wagon. Wagon takes off like wildfire. Xyl leaps off once it has reached critical mass and then gets doubleprofit for pulling the rabbit out of your hat.

It'd be magnificent, like the KK-CKD scumteam doublefake claims.

So, I doubt its true.

[SpyreX]

Today is the time for massclaim. Definitely. Make sure that when you claim include all pertinent information.

Meta'ing me against twilight is going to be a poor idea. But, with the mason coming out and saying I'm a suspect I'm expecting the wagon.

I'm going to run with KK, CKD, Wicked as town. CKD, of course, isn't CLEAR but that kind of gamble would be something special as scum.

That leaves, KMD, Faraday, Xyl, SC.

Assuming three-of-four its KMD and Faraday for sure.

Now, yesterday really flowed like a town-on-town fight. However, numerically ONE of them all but has to be scum.

Right now I'd lean on that, surprise, being SC. However, on the off chance that the numbers are off I would prefer to go with the pair that I am more confident with.

Unvote, Vote: Faraday

[SpyreX]

No, see on massclaim day you should give ALL the information you have.

If the player is still alive you help.
If the player is dead no harm done in not giving it.

I dont agree with the vote but not wanting to discuss what you've DONE is still shady.

[SpyreX]

...

Good lord.

How about this:

I'm vanilla. Good old Emerald Townie.

If the next person who posts doesn't claim they get hung. There. Problem solved.

[SpyreX]

I claimed vanilla out of turn because watching the whole claim-drama was driving me nuts.

... lemme get this straight. You opted to not hide at all until 3?

Really?

God in heaven. All you would have had to do is give any kind of breadcrumb and your death and flip would have been a cleared.

And you picked the miller who was pretty much on cruise control to hide behind instead of gambling and, ya know, helping win this pig?

Unvote, Vote: CKD

[SpyreX]

.....

What.

My lord.

KK, that was inspired. KMD, why didn't you say you were the mystical neighbor?

[SpyreX]

Xyl gets town MVP. Hands down.

Even with the loss I don't feel too bad about my performance. SC managed to get me to doubt myself (which I shouldn't have). I was right about Faraday although KMD being the other neighbor threw me off.

KK, I'll admit, had me fooled. Of course if it had went SC instead of the other choices we might have seen a cross-kill and then it would have been miller time.

Having the town power roles meet the reaper early definitely hurt.

A well balanced game and a damn fun one to replace into. IAUN did an excellent job modding.

[SpyreX]

....

Yea. Xyl town MVP, KK prescient scum MVP.

Wow. Just wow.

[SpyreX]

If that all hadn't spilled out that near deadline I would have tried to swing ALL the way around the horn to Faraday.

As it was.

[SpyreX]

After reading the scumchat sheesh. Now that I'm town you know my start was honest for pete's sake.

I wish CKD HAD killed KMD. I think with KMD dead I would have been all over Faraday without question.

I probably should have thought more about how easy the CKD wagon was going but good gravy that last explanation screamed "I'm scum."

Sometimes I forget in larger games lynching scum can lead to a loss.

In retrospect I still don't understand Namtam's play and I am flabbergasted about Lowell's delay / "you need me" business.

If I had just held on to Xyl / KMD and not got all tinfoil I would have been alright.

Or if I had listened and lynched SC for not taking the lynch-bait.

So it goes.

[SpyreX]

That was part of it.

I meant when, yesterday, you wouldn't vote for Xyl while calling him scum. No numbers added up to it being lylo so it didn't make sense.

I should have held to it - but you did a damn good job feeling honest and town by the end of it.

There's something to be said for being a replacement. No distractions on the early game.

[SpyreX]

Why should he? There was no evidence of him being it, and everyone was assuming that the last neighbour was scum. There was no benefit to honest claiming there.

I was thinking more immediately.

The last neighbor being KMD (which would have been left field) AND it being in such a spot that the risk/reward for scum doing it AND my read on KMD would have eliminated that from Lowells set of crazy which may have helped push the lynch away from Lowell.

Who knows though.

I think it was balanced fine overall. Although I swear that masons + neighbors is more pro-scum than pro-town. Masons especially.

I swore outloud when my picks for scumteams came out and said they were masons.

[SpyreX]

I guess my deal with masons is that in that perfect world you'd have a very pro-town townie that would come out with BAM, I am a mason and everyone would applaud because thats one less in the pool for lynchin.

Instead, its held close like a cop and its always scummy-seeming players that are the masons. Every frakkin time.

I think the balance was fine - we just happened to have no crosskills and an inspired miller claim.

[SpyreX]

I forgot about that.

[SpyreX]

Replacing in when I did it was killing me to watch three people I was sold on being town at each others throats.

I've learned to not second guess myself quite as much, though.