Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Zachrulez]

No, if you listened to me, we would have lynched camn.


Is you voting alex related or un-related to your previous posts on this page, Zach?

Very much related.

[Zachrulez]

You wanted Alex to die fast on day 1 as I recall.

How do you feel about him now?

[Zachrulez]

I wanted camn to die more on day 1, and probably Battle Mage, too, but of two realistic lynches (alex and BM), I preferred alex.


I feel less sure he is scum now than I did then, in part because of the coaching meta applying when he is town. And in part because camn-town wrecked my alex-camn theory.


If I am reading your thought process correctly, you suspect BM and alex are scumbuddies?

You are correct.

[Zachrulez]

BM's frustration is his vote of Alex is my strongest clue.

I also happen to find them individually scummy as well.

[Zachrulez]

Zach. Also, I take it that your suspicion about me now overrides GIEFF, Benmage and Battle Mage right?

You really Zach (If you get my drift).

On reflection of Benmage on day 2, he looks town to me.

I am also significantly less suspicious of Gieff than I have been in the previous two days of play. You are primarily responsible for this.

I am about as suspicious of Battle Mage as I am of you. I could easily cast a vote on Battle Mage should any kind of wagon form on him.

[Zachrulez]

I am about as suspicious of Battle Mage as I am of you. I could easily cast a vote on Battle Mage should any kind of wagon form on him.

Don't give me this Cephir over BCC crap... We were equal on votes until you chose to vote me... If someone votes BM... will you vote BM then?

In that situation I preferred to lynch BCC over Cephrir.

In this situation, it really doesn't matter that much to me.

[Zachrulez]

Actually, I think I'd rather see what you flip, cause DDD insisted that your gloating wasn't a scumtell.

[Zachrulez]

sigh...

Zach: Right now... State why you are voting me...

Gloating and defending mastin... Anything else?

Sounds about right?

Want a text wall with about a dozen other weaker reasons?

[Zachrulez]

Punctuation marks are my enemy today.

[Zachrulez]

No need Zach, just fail again....

You've just acknowledged that you're voting me with one of the lamest cases presented up to date...

Why? Because it's not a long text wall?

Why haven't you even bothered to refute my case? Explain what pro-town motivation you would have had to defend a player who's alignment you're not supposed to know?

Or even attempt to refute my belief that gloating is a scumtell, by showing me a game in which you were pro town where you have done this?

Or you can continue with your current option, flicking the points away categorically dismissing them without actually addressing.

[Zachrulez]

Walls of texts have nothing to do with it.

Unlike you. I got a good read on him. I understood his playstyle. It fitted.

He jumped in this game with a great deal of energy and a theory. It wasn't strange coming from him. Further posts gave me the same vibe and his ignorance regarding his dangerous position resembled what I had seen in Mini 791 Beard Mafia.

I already told you that gloating is not a scumtell... what else should I do? Not everything depends on meta evidence... I don't recall a game where I gloated like in this one but I've never been as annoyed as I've been here either... People managed to lynch against my wishes TWICE without good enough reasons (specially Cephir's lynch, wich was over in a flash thanks to players like SensFan). I'm entitled to let them know. If you think that's a scumtell then you better throw your mafia scumtell handbook to the can.

You can check a theme game where I strongly defended Firestarter (who ended up being town). That brought me a lot of flak too.

The only difference here is that Mastin's defense was much earlier, therefore, I wasn't really sure if he was town, just that the case against him sucked.

Nice backtracking. I thought you had a good read on him?

Perhaps you'd like to explain why gloating isn't scummy and why townies are just as likely to do it as scum? Especially in light of the fact that townies are generally more interested in finding scum than they are in ramming it into someone's face that they were wrong about something?

[Zachrulez]

Alex, that wasn't a misrep. At the beginning of the post, you said you had a strong read on Mastin, and later in the post, you said your read was weak. It was a backtrack.

I don't think gloating is a strong scumtell either, Zach.

Then I guess it's going to be an uphill battle to convince you that Alex is the lynch of the day.

Saying you don't think it's a strong scumtell though, would that mean you find it scummy, but just not as scummy as I do?

Cause Alex is making a powerful statement that it is not scummy at all.

[Zachrulez]

Mildly scummy.

Then I guess it's going to be an uphill battle to convince you that Alex is the lynch of the day.

I thought you found BM and alex equally scummy? Why do you plan on battling to convince me to lynch alex?

I don't have a clear idea who you suspect today at all.

[Zachrulez]

Unless 1689 is stating that you find BM scummier.

[Zachrulez]

Zach 1691: Are you trying to manipulate GIEFF instead of answering why you've seemed to change so much from "I'll go with any bandwaggon on Alex/BM" to "I need to convince people to lynch Alex"?

Hey... how many people can we lynch at any given time?

One? ...Thank you.

[Zachrulez]

AGAIN: Zach, If GIEFF or somebody else votes BM... would you change your vote?
It would be:
BM (2) Alex, Someone else
vs
Alex (2) BM, Zach.

Someone can certainly feel free to vote Battle mage and find out.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, what do you have to say about the fact that Battle Mage actually had the gall to say he thought you were town?

[Zachrulez]

Yes, I find BM scummier than alex. I think KMD, Spyrex, and Sens are scummy, too. I like my vote on bcc.

Wouldn't your vote be better served on one of those four than on BCC then?

Just sayin...

[Zachrulez]

WTF? Gloating is a scumtell? I have the right to attack those who played poorly and allowed a town lurker to be quicklynched over a possbile scum lurker.

I guess i spoke too soon.

Unvote, Vote: Alex

I'm sick and tired of making excuses for his schoolboy errors and slips. If you KNEW Cephrir was town, tell me, why didnt you say anything? Yet another terrible scum-slip.

I want you dead, right this minute. Anyone who wants to try and restore a bit of fun back into the game, please join me.

--------------------------------
BCC hasn't posted since 19 July... however... he confirmed first night and then via kairyuu... what's up with that?

both times he confirmed was via Kairyuu. I'm not sure the Mod has actually heard from BCC himself, first or last.

GIEFF... it would be cool if you could divide the votepatterns by days... for the next one...

DIY?

BM

Re-reading. Raising a SERIOUS eyebrow to the bolded.

Why would you need to make excuses for Alex?

Alex, your thoughts on this post please.

[Zachrulez]

My opinion of the post is that his frustration laced wording of how he was tired of making excuses for you carries a heavy implication that the vote is one of bussing.

So I was curious about what you thought about the fact that Battle Mage seems to be implicating you with his own scummy behavior.

[Zachrulez]

God!!! If you think he is bussing me... Vote HIM!

That wasn't quite the enlightened response I've grown to expect from you.

[Zachrulez]

I'm confused with Gieff's play of late. Near the end of D1 he tries to turn everything 180 degrees in a dire attempt to see alex lynched. Since then he has paid him little attention and has not sought his lynch so strongly again.

I think the D1 play was a fruitless effort to illustrate distancing between alex and gieff, gieff, knowing that the D1 late lynch effort was futile. I don't think it far-fetched to believe Alex-Gieff a scum pair.

I do remember that.

Don't you think that would have been a bit of a calculated risk though?

As I recall, the wagons came pretty close to evening out before I put my vote on Mastin to help push the bandwagon more clearly in that direction. I think momentum and sentiment could have very easily shifted.

That's kinda where I end up feeling that it's not likely that Alex and Gieff are scum together.

[Zachrulez]

Actually after looking at Benmage's insight, and working my own brain on it. I can see that both Gieff and Battle Mage attacked Alex pretty hard on day 1.

I actually see a pretty good argument for Gieff/Battle Mage that can't be ruled out now either.

While I hate to admit Alex is right. Battle Mage is the scummy constant. So Alex gets a pass, at least for today anyway...

Unvote: Vote: Battle Mage

Let's see how this foundation crumbles.

[Zachrulez]

Consequently, Alexhans' desire to see BM lynched is far more consistent than BM's wishy-washy voting patterns. Another good argument for BM over Alex.

[Zachrulez]

I actually see a pretty good argument for Gieff/Battle Mage that can't be ruled out now either.

You mean an argument that we are a scumpair?

Yeah.

[Zachrulez]

alexhans' scum. vs. town contributions:

[mrow]Game[col]Alignment[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / DayMini 714[col]Scum[col]0.6[col]0.5Open 129[col]Scum[col]2.1[col]1Mini 761[col]Town[col]2[col]1.3Mini 773[col]Town[col]1.2[col]1.2Newbie 744[col]Town[col]0.8[col]0.5Mafia 91[col]Town[col]4.5[col]2This game[col]?[col]3.9[col]3.9

Scum average

[col][col]1.4[col]0.8

Town average

[col][col]2.1[col]1.3

Alex's flurry of activity in this game is largely based on being attacked so much, but I would still call this a mild towntell.

Hey Gieff, you seem to be pretty good at these. Could you possibly do one on DDD? I'm curious...

[Zachrulez]

Oh wow, I hadn't noticed that Jammer had posted last on the 3rd.

He's probably due for a prod now along with what's going on with BCC.

[Zachrulez]

Jammer said something about possible V/La in his last post =/.

Ah, then all you need to do is point that out to make me feel silly...

[Zachrulez]

Forgot to post in my games that I'm V/LA. I somehow managed to get some time online, but long story short, the next time I can sleep is Sunday, so don't expect me online much, if at all.

Unvote Black

. He is being replaced, so I highly doubt he is strategically lurking.

Vote Battle Mage

because conspiracies are fun. Actually, my VC analysis had him as scum and his reaction to 2 votes is just terrible.

My reaction to 2 votes wasnt terrible, it was completely reasonable, because i have a pretty good sense of how this game works now. Rather than blaming me, why not take responsibility for your own vote?

BCC is being replaced?

Tomorrow, take Gieff out.

BM

Why?

[Zachrulez]

Why take Gieff out tomorrow anyway?

[Zachrulez]

Spyrex and BM:

You both find me very scummy.
Yet you both think that if I AM town, I will be (or should have already been) night-killed.


But why? If I'm so scummy, doesn't it makes sense for scum to try to leave me alive as a potential mislynch?


And wouldn't scum also try to

keep

my mislynch viable by, just as an example, saying that I should have been nightkilled if I were town?

Strangely, I understand the point you are trying to make here Gieff.

It is a good question.

[Zachrulez]

Gieff's 1859 rehashes points that should have been clear ages ago.

Battle Mage's repeated attempts to rewrite history to suit his own ends convinces me that he needs to die, and thus needs more votes on him.

[Zachrulez]

Hi Vi!

Hi WORDS I've missed you. Wait, no I haven't. In fact you've been coming around this way far too often. Stop stealing my newspapers.

I'm stoked to the rafters having to ask for a nice clear point by point again on what this now moved to "rewriting history" is.

Are you even reading the game?

His assertion that there has been no significant discussion on Gieff's scumminess until today is just one blatant example of his repeated attempts to rewrite history.

This repeated attempt to shove the whole "why hasn't Gieff been NKed yet" argument down our throats is convincing me that Gieff is actually town.

[Zachrulez]

I would like to lynch you based on your predecessors, Vi, but we're 0/2 on the lurker-lynches. It's hard to believe that all 3 of the criminal-lurkers are town, but even if we lynch you and you are town, it would be a less crushing loss if I can blame it on idiotic play. I have an ego to protect here.

This game is horrible, especially considering how hard our poor mod worked to recruit reliable people. Kai's behavior is OK, and I actually appreciate it no matter his/your role, but bcc/Cephrir/Mastin really suck.

I think Sens, Spyrex, and BM have played scummy, scummier than bcc has in his 4 posts and than you have in your 2 or 3, but experience tells me that scum lurk, and that the odds are very low that ALL 3 of the mega-lurkers are town.



If you were in a game with 3 insane-mega-2-week asshole lurkers, you lynched two of them and they both flipped town, would you lynch the third? Hypothetically speaking.

In this situation I will definitely say yes if Battle Mage flips scum.

It goes back to the question of why he was trying to prevent the BCC lynch so vehemently without any solid reason on why it was a better lynch than the Cephrir lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Hey guys, let's just all get drunk and then just admit if we've been naughty and killing innocent people. It's OK, we will forgive you. Let's just be cool and stop shooting people, and maybe we can put this lynch-rope away? I mean, this has just gone way too far.

Sorry, I don't drink...

[Zachrulez]

Thank you, Zachrulez, for lining up lynches.

It's because I'm black!

catcontract

Hello encore performance. I missed Grim Mafia. Really I did.

Zachrulez. I've already outlined how Zach is scum beyond belief, and yet nobody's interested in voting him. What is it that's making people think he's Town? That he said he would swap one lurker for another as long as someone got lynched? (note: they're both Town!) Zach is former lurkerscum and must die.

Any particular reason you're fixated on this? Why not in Battle Mage's unwillingness to explain why he thought BCC/You were town? Why not in Sensfan's hammer? I think I was pretty upfront about my position here, and to be honest, I don't think the bandwagon would have needed my vote for a lynch. It happened more quickly than I could have ever imagined possible.

Nice job promoting me as lurkerscum though. That's probably the most ridiculous accusation that's been thrown at me all game. I look forward to hearing all about my "former lurking."

Or did you expect me to take that attack lying down?

[Zachrulez]

So you're excusing BM's overall inconsistent play because he sucked the whole game or something? Why do we keep allowing people to do this kind of stuff and excuse their scumminess because it's their playstyle??

Read my 3rd day's iso for reference on BM.

I have a pretty simple explanation that I think fits pretty nicely.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach: Of course I wouldn't expect you to take this vote lying down. I remember Grimmafia as well as you do. And besides, everyone else I accused in that game was scum
And... incidentally, I was Town in Grimmafia. Do you think that should reflect on your implication that I'm scum in this game? (again, I wouldn't expect you to take this vote lying down, so why target you?)

Half the living players in the game were scum at the point you replaced in, just for reference.

And yes, you were town. That doesn't mean you're town here. So why should I believe that your attacks on me are town motivated in this game? Especially when you write off Battle Mage's scummy play, and fire off accusations at me so similar to Grim Mafia, it's like you haven't learned from your mistakes there.

I've already covered your D1 scumplay, where the "former lurkerscum" title came from - considering you only showed up to snipe at people and/or complain about Mastin not being lynched, even when at one point you yourself weren't voting Mastin.

I have never played Mastin before this game, but I know him by reputation.

Hate his posting style (Being that he posts absolute monstrosities.)

Saw clear indicators that he was scum here. The autoclear argument, the falling behind and lurking thing. The nightkill speculation. All things I have seen from his scum play in games I have read.

Personally I'm pissed off that after all that he flipped town. It just shows how little he seems to care about the games he signs up for. I will be avoiding him in future games, I know that much.

D2 was pretty funny. After Benmage self-voted, camn-Town got angry, GIEFF-Town got angry, and you-scum went "whoa, wait, chill". It looked like you were caught by surprise at Benmage's overreaction; your pressure worked

too

well. As has already been pointed out, scum offering to self-hammer (somehow; that's hard to do when he's already voting himself) isn't a bad thing, because, well, scum getting hammered. And that's the difference between zwet in Grimmafia and Benmage here. In Grimmafia, you were of the same alignment. Here, I doubt it highly.

Any reason this CAN'T work from a town perspective where I reacted to Benmage's over reaction and got a town read from his frustration. Afterall, that was something I didn't get a chance to do in Grim Mafia with Zwet when he self hammered?

After making peace with Benmage after that got out of control, you seamlessly moved onto GIEFF for horrible reasons that I'm very glad you got called on in the very next post. After that you basically were for whatever lurker lynch you could get. One really is as good as the other in this game - they're both Town.

Eh, you probably have a point here. Laziness got the better of me on putting together a comprehensive Gieff case, can you blame me? The posting rate in this game has been sick, and the total posts have reached an ungodly level in record time.

Overall not impressed with the reasoning behind your votes throughout.

Noted. Also note that I'm not impressed by your attacks or your case.

I'm VERY interested in a more detailed explanation of why Battle Mage is town. So feel free to give one at any time.

[Zachrulez]

bbc/Kai has been replaced. There is nothing strategic about that. The argument of "lurking" for them can only be applied if, and only if, additionally you find Vi scummy.

Why exactly does Vi need to appear scummy in order for us to apply the lurking argument to his predecessor? I understand the whole "you can't completely hold them accountable for the actions of who they replace." But there's a counter argument about the fact that you don't necessarily need to completely forgive the actions either. A replacement is a convenient time to completely wipe away that kind of suspicion.

KMD I could also get behind for the same thing but he doesn't have this amazing habit of showing up when called upon.

Hey Vi, how do you think this compares to my "uncaring just get any lynch between Cephrir and BCC" position?

Also, I'm pleased that you are finally with us on Gieff's 1859 in understanding that the argument of Gieff not being nked as "vocal town" being a weak point of contention. Though I also find is somewhat annoying, as it's confusing me about my read on you.

I'm most suspicious of Spyrex and Battle Mage at this point anyway.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, I leave for my trip later today, and I won't be back until Wednesday.

At that point I'll be kicking back with my week off of work. Expect reduced posting in that timeframe.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote:

Battle Mage, if your meta reasoning for opposing a BCC lynch was based on an ongoing game, you should have SAID so from the start. It makes more of a difference than you think, and you actually look quite a bit better in my eyes now.

No longer like the idea of lynching Battle Mage.

[Zachrulez]

I am staring in amazement at the speed at which KMD was run up to lynch -1.

Really not liking Spyrex's jump on the wagon at all, since his scum suspect DDD was also on that wagon.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Sensfan

His recent attitude isn't one that warrants continued existence.

Also in an iso read, I'm especially bothered that he went out of his way to assure us he wouldn't hammer Mastin and cut off discussion on a quick lynch on day 1, but has been perfectly willing to do so with a cephrir lynch, and seems to be willing to push toward any real lynch at all today. Random lynching and the absence of scum hunting is ridiculous.

[Zachrulez]

You're voting SensFan for his attitude, or his gameplay?

Both.

[Zachrulez]

It is impossible to say "Look, I'm Town here", or at least useless, since anyone in their right mind will just add that to every one of their posts.

If you're trying to make a case against me, you need to actually make a fucking case! Seriously, that's how Mafia is played: you find someone scummy, you need to make a case! You can't just say "You're Scum unless you prove otherwise!"

You need to practice what you preach.

[Zachrulez]

We need more of the dubious characters posting right about now.
By which I mean Battle Mage, Kmd, SpyreX, and jammer.
Some more Zach would be nice too (yes, I see your last post), because that vote post still bothers me.

Unfortunately Search is down right now.

Sens is quick in being critical of other players while clearly not practicing what he preaches, and the general defense for that seems to be meta. (The whole rant about having a make a case when he hasn't bothered to do this yet in the game.)

What I am finding interesting is how quickly KMD was run up to lynch -1, and how those same players who seem willing to run up multiple players without much of a care aren't quite as quick to place their vote on Sens.

Making me wonder.

[Zachrulez]

Why are scum more likely to be defeatist than town?



And Spy, stop trying to chain-lynch me through others' alignments. You want to lynch me, come at me now. It's too easy for scum to control the game like that.

Gieff is clearly scum. The more i read his posts, the more i think that his attitude of asking questions to all and sundry isnt protown, its actually just a ruse. It works well for about 50 pages, but after that, people start to catch on that the questions mostly serve no real purpose, and are just a front. I like a Gieff lynch today. Continued gut feel.

BM

I'm trying to limit the posting, but I figure that some content from me is better than no content from anybody?


-----

unvote

vote KMD

• KMD spent the majority of his effort on page 1 defending camn's scummy behavior, even though the points on which he caught camn-scum in a different game (outlined in Post 600) also applied to her behavior THIS game, as I pointed out in Post 602. Yet KMD never backed off his camn-defense, never stopped calling her obv-town.
  
  
• His Mastin vote was very weird, too. He excused it as soon as he made it by saying "either Mastin or camn is the lynch today" which wasn't the case at ALL.
  
  
• Even odder - two posts before his Mastin vote, he claimed he would rather lynch alex, me, or bcc instead of Mastin - Mastin was actually probably only 4 or 5 on his list. Yet, when given the opportunity to switch to alex, he did not. He NEVER unvoted Mastin until lynch went through, even though there were so many others he claimed to want to lynch.
  
  
• KMD tunneled in on me early on (jumping on as the 3rd vote), refusing to explain his reasoning until much, much later, when he could make something up. Today, he's jumped on the Battle Mage wagon (also as the 3rd vote), for ticky-tack reasons.

Was considering a KMD vote, until i read this ^.

Vote: DDD

Scummiest voter on the wagon.

BM

Question. You seem quite convinced of Gieff being scum, yet your vote finds it's way on DDD. Are you really more suspicious of DDD, or are you voting him because of the perception that he's easier to lynch?

I'm just wondering why you're not willing to vote Gieff is he's quite clearly scum...

[Zachrulez]

To me seemed he was posting loads to seem town, instead of actually finding scum with any of it.

That is ridiculous. We haven't once lynched my preferred lynch-target. How do you know if I'm catching scum or not?

Your preferred lynch-target changes quickly with the wind.

For example: What happened to your case on KMD? Do you still think he's likely to be scum? Why did you unvote him?

Same for Sens. You even stated in an earlier post that Sens is scummy while DDD is not. (Iso 388) Why have you lost interest in voting for Sens?

Why do you now prefer lynching Battle Mage over those two?

[Zachrulez]

Don't confuse whom I am voting at any given moment with my preferred lynch-target.


I voted Battle Mage because he is either deliberately misunderstanding me, or missing incredibly obvious points to avoid having to respond to them.

Not that it's possible to do so.

Who is your preferred lynch target today then? How many times has your preferred lynch target changed?

Was Sens your preferred lynch target when you were voting for him at any point?

What about KMD? Was he your preferred lynch target when you voted for him? (Note that he was nearly lynched.)

[Zachrulez]

I don't know. Sens is probably #1 target still. Close with BM. Hard to say. KMD was not my preferred lynch target when I voted him.

These are bad questions to ask me unless you think I'm scum, Zach.

To the bolded, really? Seriously?

I don't know what you are, but I do want to try to make more sense of your voting patterns and intentions, that's for sure.

If KMD wasn't your preferred lynch target, why were you content leaving your vote on him while he was under threat of lynch?

[Zachrulez]

He was at L-1 for 9 minutes, during which time I did not check the thread.

Was he at L-2 for 9 minutes?

[Zachrulez]

If I had unvoted at L-2, we wouldn't have seen Spyrex's way scummy, resigned vote to put KMD at L-1, while trying to blame it all on me.

Yes, I noticed that. I also notice that few people actually seem willing to lynch him, which perplexes me.

[Zachrulez]

He went from no votes to L-1 in two and a half hours. You're questioning the FIRST person on the wagon instead of those who ran him up to L-1 so quickly? Because I didn't unvote as soon as KMD hit L-2? I don't understand your suspicion.

And yes, these questions do absolutely no good unless you think I may be scum.

Yes, I am curious about the fact that you didn't pull your vote on KMD until it looked reasonably certain that no one else was going to tack votes on him. Yes I do find it a bit suspicious.

Where you voted on the bandwagon makes no difference, but it's not like I'm ignoring the scummy run up that was put on KMD either.

Why do you think there isn't much interest in voting Spyrex for his scummy lynch -1 vote on KMD?

Why are you more interested in Battle Mage right now when you seem to acknowledge that the people who ran up KMD are scummy?

Why do you think me trying to understand your play is no good? (Unless I think you're scum.) Can I not question and analyze to try to make that determination myself?

[Zachrulez]

I've been told off for voting SensFan because people claimed it was his playstyle. But if his playstyle means willing to be unhelpful, inconsistent and scummy I'm totally willing to lynch him.

Actually, my playstyle is pretty much the opposite of what you've described.
My pay in this game is also nowhere near what you've described, though I admit I'm behind my usual standard. Other priorities, and I don't give a flying fuck if you want to lynch me because of it. If it weren't for the fact this was a YawMod game, I'd have requested replacement N0, and absolutely nothing that has happened since has put any more want in me to play this game with people like you.

^5. I still like Sens as town at this point.

BM

Why?

[Zachrulez]

He seems genuinely annoyed at the game moreso than caring to participate actively. It's a view i can really relate to.
It reads very protown to me.

BM

It's not pro town. We can have a disagreement over how scummy his attitude is in the game, but I disagree with his attitude toward the game being pro town, but his attitude is certainly anti-town.

[Zachrulez]

He seems genuinely annoyed at the game moreso than caring to participate actively. It's a view i can really relate to.
It reads very protown to me.

BM

It's not pro town. We can have a disagreement over how scummy his attitude is in the game, but I disagree with his attitude toward the game being pro town,

but

his attitude is certainly anti-town.

Striking out a but that doesn't belong in the post.

[Zachrulez]

I'll respond to the rest later, GIEFF, but in my timezone both the hammer and my previous post were on Wednesday, though 19 hours apart.

And yes. I guarantee you I won't be NK'd this game.

This comment alone should warrant a lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, no one seems to be interested in 2199, so I will quote it again.

I'll respond to the rest later, GIEFF, but in my timezone both the hammer and my previous post were on Wednesday, though 19 hours apart.

And yes. I guarantee you I won't be NK'd this game.

This comment alone should warrant a lynch.

Night speculation from Sensfan? Hmmmmm... Let's hop on the time machine.

The same Sensfan who said this?

Seriously, guys.

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE KILL.

Its something the Scum have 100% control over, and I'm betting most/all of the Scum are now trying to use that to also control the Day phase.

And this...

Seriously, guys.

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE KILL.

Its something the Scum have 100% control over, and I'm betting most/all of the Scum are now trying to use that to also control the Day phase.

mmmm... I knew it...

Sensfan...
Discussing, stating our opinions = Healthy
Shutting the fuck up = NOT healthy

No.

Discussing and stating opinions about the Night Kill = Not Fucking Healthy
Shutting the fuck up about stuff the Scum has full control over = Healthy

I will not be repeating myself again.

And now he guarantees that he won't be night killed in this game, not that it would be night speculation or anything.

[Zachrulez]

Um, Zach. There's a slight difference between the tactics behind the N0 kill and the N3 kill.

That may be, but I still find night kill speculation scummy.

And I find someone who voices that opinion and then speculates on a kill/s that hasn't even happened yet scummier.

[Zachrulez]

That may be, but I still find night kill speculation scummy.

Why, as it pertains to this case?

Well in this case, I really don't see any reason for Sens to assume he won't be night killed, and I feel it's a viable excuse from a scum perspective to explain one's continued survival.

Also, I don't get this recent vote... at all really.

Is this directed at me of Sens vote?

[Zachrulez]

With fixed quotes...

That may be, but I still find night kill speculation scummy.

Why, as it pertains to this case?

Well in this case, I really don't see any reason for Sens to assume he won't be night killed, and I feel it's a viable excuse from a scum perspective to explain one's continued survival.

Also, I don't get this recent vote... at all really.

Is this directed at me of Sens vote?[/quote]

[Zachrulez]

Man, there are times when I really need to get more acquainted with the preview button.

[Zachrulez]

Well in this case, I really don't see any reason for Sens to assume he won't be night killed, and I feel it's a viable excuse from a scum perspective to explain one's continued survival.

That's... actually very flimsy as far as practical reasoning goes, for reasons already mentioned.

The fact of the matter is your pushes on the SensFan wagon have been seriously reaching, and I've given you too much Town credit for the way you cleared Battle Mage.

That's fine. You've made it clear you're suspicious of me from the moment you entered the game. I'm not looking for your approval in my reasoning. It's there, and you can take from it what you will.

I find the contradiction in Sensfan's play to be a good reason to leave my vote right where it is. I'm just going to have to disagree with you on how strong you think my reasoning is, and if you find me scummy for it, so be it.

[Zachrulez]

Also I noticed that DDD called me town in his analysis... and I'm actually finding that a bit disturbing.

I can't recall if he's ever explained why he believes I'm town.

[Zachrulez]

@Those voting SF or DDD

are you willing to vote for the other? It seems as if we are divided on two very similar people. Much like we did between Bcc/Ceph. Let's just join one wagon and be done with it.

Yeah, I was willing to do this before wasn't I?

What could possibly go wrong with having this mindset?

... I'd like to think I'm capable of learning from mistakes.

Yeah, I'm not sure that consolidating into one bandwagon and getting a lynch as quickly as possible is necessarily a great idea anymore. Hell, I feel silly for thinking it was a great idea in the first place.

My vote's not moving, not this time.

[Zachrulez]

Why aren't you voting BM? Do you want to oblige others to vote who you are by saying you're set?

I'm not keen on a Battle Mage lynch anymore. One of the biggest sticking points against him in my eyes (The reasoning for believing BCC town) was explained.

I also find Sensfan and Spyrex scummier than pretty much everyone else right now.

[Zachrulez]

I am re-examining the kmd wagon.

Trying to get a handle on the order of the run-up, and where the votes are now.

[Zachrulez]

So why not parse out what this game is "lol, reactions" and what was actually "hay this is me, being town, doing things I believe in"

It's not really doing this I don't believe. For example, I really did think KMD acted scummy. I could have just kept my vote on whomever I wanted to see lynched, but by making a case and switching a vote, we learned a LOT. Scum aren't usually run up to L-1 that quickly, and the people who jumped on that wagon late (especially you) just earned some scumpoints.

Another example is the vote-swapping test with alex to see how far he would go to stop a Mastin lynch.

This is a mountainous setup. We don't have any power roles to help us, so stuff like that is more important.



I don't really believe any of that, I'm just seeing how you'll react to it.

Do you think it would be pretty safe to say that there was scum on the KMD wagon?

[Zachrulez]

Next question is if there was scum on the KMD wagon, how many are there?

Order of wagon:

Gieff: Case on KMD and vote
Vi: Agrees with case and vote
Sens: Votes, asserts agreement with case
DDD: Votes, asserts agreement with Sens
Spyrex: Resigns to lynch and sets up conditions for Gieff lynch the next day

Oh, and also...

Unvote: Vote: Spyrex

I think it would be crazy to believe that Vi, Sens, and DDD could possibly all be scum together.

[Zachrulez]

I also think it's also almost certain that at least one scum was OFF the wagon, Zach. Vi, Sens, and DDD not all three being scum does NOT imply Spy-scum.

No, but his resignation is unique to all the other votes.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, your reaction to my vote is interesting.

So now I might as well ask, what do you think of my Spyrex vote? You seem to be giving off the impression that you think it's a bad vote.

[Zachrulez]

I think it's a fantastic vote. I was just correcting what I perceived to be faulty logic.

When you said:

I think it would be crazy to believe that Vi, Sens, and DDD could possibly all be scum together.

It looked like you were implying that if one of those three are town, then Spy must be scum, but this isn't true at all. It doesn't mean your other reason is poor.

I probably should have put more thought into that when I wrote it.

The general feeling I was trying to convey is that I don't see it likely that any of those 3 are paired with each other as scum.

[Zachrulez]

Hey Benmage, what do you think of my bandwagon commentary on 2295?

Can you understand my reasoning? What do you think of it?

[Zachrulez]

A wonderful analysis except for, surprise, you leave the GIEFF / DDD pairing out of it if you were so sure there was scum on that wagon.

Not really surprised though.

I never actually ruled out that pairing did I? Didn't you think I was paired with DDD a while back? Are you implying that you think DDD/Gieff/myself are the scumteam?

[Zachrulez]

So, if you're confident in that, why would you be willing to lynch KMD?

[Zachrulez]

jammer, why are you focusing on DDD's "bandwagoning" L-2 vote, but completely ignoring Spyrex's L-1 vote?

Very good question.

Being the initiator of a wagon doesn't mean that you are not part of how it got to L-1.

But how it got to L-1 isn't the point - the point is how QUICKLY it got to L-1.

And how easily he was willing to just push the lynch through.

[Zachrulez]

Yes but how in the blue blazes does that mean you aren't culpable?

If GIEFF-scum makes a case and town pick up on it then your partners bend it WHAM we have us an L-1 wagon.

Thats not a difficult undertaking in normal times. In this game, even less.

You act like I didn't question him on why he stayed on the wagon when it build up steam.

[Zachrulez]

unvote

vote spyrex

But if he flips scum, WE'RE LYNCHING ZACH NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

Why the need for the chain lynching comment?

[Zachrulez]

Because you were the first vote on the wagon. You are fully culpable for any future actions. That'll teach you to scumhunt and try to make new cases.

I'm as responsible for my own vote as you are of yours.

I can understand finding me suspicious if Spyrex were to flip town, but to make a chain lynching comment like that is strange, because it's presuming a hypothetical situation with the assumption that I would not be nked.

[Zachrulez]

I am bad at recognizing sarcasm.

I tend to assume everything written is serious unless otherwise indicated.

[Zachrulez]

I am bad at recognizing sarcasm.

I tend to assume everything written is serious unless otherwise indicated.

On the internet at least, real life is easier.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach:

Are you aware of the number of times you have changed your vote today? Could you summarize your current suspects in a neat way?

How many times have I changed my vote, and why are you suddenly interested in it when I vote for Spyrex, and not when I vote... say... Sensfan?

I think Spyrex is the best lynch, and I think there's a good chance that there's a scum in, Vi, DDD, and Sensfan, but I'm not really as sure about which one is most likely to be scum out of those 3 as I once was.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach:

Are you aware of the number of times you have changed your vote today? Could you summarize your current suspects in a neat way?

How many times have I changed my vote, and why are you suddenly interested in it when I vote for Spyrex, and not when I vote... say... Sensfan?

Well... if you don't know what you do with your votes...

As you may have guessed, a SensFan lynch wouldn't terribly dissapoint me because he was one of my main suspects since D1. Why do you get so defensive EVERY TIME I ask you something? You always attack me (or so it seems) after I ask you something... Are you implying I'm scum with SpyreX or what? And you just ignored my question.

Nice. Defensiveness? No, I was curious why you suddenly would ask such a question when it's only one more vote change than it was when I was voting for Sensfan, who you admit you have no problem lynching. So what has really changed is the fact that I went from voting someone you didn't have a problem voting for to someone you apparently do have a problem with me voting for, so now you are calling how frequently my vote changes into question.

And the answer is no, I wasn't aware of how many times I changed my votes. I haven't been counting. I could go back and do that if you want.

[Zachrulez]

Alex, what exactly does a switchy feeling mean?

What do you think about my vote on Spyrex? Do you understand the reasoning?

Do you think there's anything wrong with the reasoning?

Can you detail why you prefer a vote on Battle Mage over Spyrex?

[Zachrulez]

@GIEFF:

My out of game irritation led to both me voting for KMD AND "pushing the chain lynch" because it is irritating to say the least to not be able to get any real traction on DDD.

Yes, it is irritating when you are called out for casting a vote that is inconsistent with your "confident" suspicions on other players.

[Zachrulez]

Oh, I'm sorry, I think you're assuming I am taking your assertion that out of game irritation motivated your actions at face value. I am not. I do not buy it.

[Zachrulez]

You have me voting Alex in 1651 and 1701.

Upon looking at those posts, I don't see where I actually cast a vote in those posts.

[Zachrulez]

The rest looks and sounds about right though.

[Zachrulez]

Half the game has voted for me. Zach has said numerous times he finds me scummy. Lately, he is leaning more town on me. I don't see the problem.

I guess I am required to vote for you after a certain amount of posts on a regular basis otherwise we're both scummy.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach

Alex, what exactly does a switchy feeling mean?

It means that I can not follow your train of thoughts. I'm not even sure who are your suspects. You seem to live too much in the present and forget overall gameplay by wich I mean that you hang onto the latest scummy action and forget all the previous ones.

What makes you think that I don't take overall gameplay into account? I hope you're not suggesting that I dismiss something that's really scummy because of "overall gameplay."

What do you think about my vote on Spyrex? Do you understand the reasoning?

Do you think there's anything wrong with the reasoning?

Can you detail why you prefer a vote on Battle Mage over Spyrex?

Your strong suspicion on SpyreX seems to begin with his L-1 vote. I totally agree with it and I added that SpyreX seemed to be lining up lynches to, presumably, mislynch KMD and GIEFF. BUT, this is all new... There's not much more to it. BM has been scummy ALL game. Has been inconsistent ALL game.

See it's really not that hard to follow my train of thought at all is it? I'm not convinced that BM is the super scum that you think he is. I'm also not sure how much of what I'm seeing in BM is simply a matter of not understanding his approach to the game. (The misunderstanding over the BCC town meta read scratches the surface of that.)

I think we have differing opinions on BM's overall play. Saying BM has been scummy all game, and has been inconsistent all game without explaining to me why isn't going to convince me that my vote belongs on him. (And in a game this large, I'm not going to go to the trouble of trying to find your case among 2300 posts, so I'm going to need more of an explanation than just the assertion at this point. I'm simply not as interested in BM as you are right now.)

Half the game has voted for me. Zach has said numerous times he finds me scummy. Lately, he is leaning more town on me. I don't see the problem.

I guess I am required to vote for you after a certain amount of posts on a regular basis otherwise we're both scummy.

Isn't this one of those statements that you call scummy, Zach? I don't think GIEFF is scum. And I'm getting a probable town read on you, BUT, IF GIEFF were scum, it would perfectly fit that you were scum with him because attacking a person in the beggining of the game would help you distance.

If the basis of this entire paragraph's concern of me starts with "If Gieff were scum." It's pretty weak.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach: Yeah, right, you did the same thing when you voted for Hoopla in 761... jumped right at the scummy statement... But, you know, it's fine, you had no strong suspicions. I do have them.

Because you expect a town player to assert Alexhans is scummy on the twilight of a scum lynch, and then go back on it after you flip town the next day and state the opposite, and then state an intention to lurk when called out with a demand to explain the change in position. *Sigh*

btw Zach, IRC, you said that you were not suspicious of BM as you were before because he had explained his vote on Ceph over BCC... ok, did he explain why he wasn't on the waggon when he had PUSHED so much to get it?

This point would be stronger if the lynch hadn't happened so fast and Battle Mage had more of a chance to actually change his vote.

If the basis of this entire paragraph's concern of me starts with "If Gieff were scum." It's pretty weak.

*sigh... No, it's not even an attack... just a reminder that you're saying a phrase that, if made by another, would make you pursue that person for making it...

Huh?

[Zachrulez]

And Alex, why the need to constantly rub in the town loss in mini 761?

[Zachrulez]

But if you flip town, we lynch Vi.

More conditional chain lynch talk.

Can you further elaborate on this?

[Zachrulez]

I'm glad we all agree that when Spyrex did it SERIOUSLY, it made no sense at all.


And my vote wasn't putting soemone at L-1 immediately after complaining about how my #1 scum-target just jumped on the wagon.

This is why I think Spyrex is the best lynch.

[Zachrulez]

-------------------
BM, Zach, what do you guys think about my statement?

Hmmmmm. You used town in a "them" context. That actually is interesting.

[Zachrulez]

You know what, I'm done trying. This is the last post you'll see from me in this game. The only exception would be if Yaw gets me to post to avoid prods or replacement, which I will then do.

Everything I've ever posted in this thread has been misinterpretted so much, and by so many different people, that at least half of who must be Town who are just too fucking dumb to know any better, and I won't waste my time trying to convince alex, Benmage, and probably others that I'm forgetting that I'm not playing scummy at all, when they probably struggle with understanding half the words in my posts. The people here that I know are good players, namely Vi and GIEFF, I think are probably Scum, since neither of them are playing anywhere near the level I know they can as it relates to me.

And to be honest, this isn't the best game I've ever played. Hell, this may very well be the worse game I've ever played. This is also the game I've played with the highest concentration of complete dumbasses. On top of that, I lost my job, I'm preparing to go back to school, I may end up being kicked out of my house for the summer, and I'm more stressed than I can ever remember being, and this game is making me physically sick more often than not.

So fuck you.

And if this is in any way a scum-fuelled attempt to attack me like this and get me off my game, then as far as I care, you can go to Hell, since you've literally made me sick, made a tough time in my life that much harder, and have made me contemplate quitting the site.

After reading this post it is my belief that you really should ask for a replacement. I'm just sayin.

[Zachrulez]

And now for something that's going to look horrible.

My vote has been mostly to keep SensFan's attention for the past few pages. Since I'm not getting responses any more, it's time to vote one of the people I've been calling scum for about that length of time.

Unvote: SensFan
Vote: Battle Mage

(L-2)

A Kmd lynch would be about equivalent IMO.

Benmage, you can stop laying into SensFan now.

Yuck...

Didn't you state an interest in lynching Alex just yesterday? Voting Battle Mage seems really weird in light of that.

[Zachrulez]

I'm noting that in Sens rant, he named Vi and Gieff as likely scum, and that both Vi and Gieff have now pulled their votes off of Sens.

[Zachrulez]

He named us scum because he said he is SO obviously town, that any good player who can't see that must be scum.


Do you really think he's obviously town?


I don't like Vi's behavior this last page or so, but not because of what Sens said.

I'm just noting what he said, and how you both reacted to it. (With your votes.)

There's really not much of a case based on that alone unless Sens actually does turn out to be town.

[Zachrulez]

I see the game similarly, Vi. Too many people look like scum. Even you have looked scummy in the last two pages. I almost have to just accept you being town though, because if you are not, then we are in big trouble, based on all the inactivity/apathy/faulty logic elsewhere in this game.

This mentality sucks.

[Zachrulez]

To further elaborate, the mentality sucks because it basically amounts to hoping Vi is town because the alternative is unthinkable.

Not to mention that it's just flat out giving up on trying to get a reliable read on Vi.

[Zachrulez]

I know. But what else can I do?

If it is true that Vi-scum means a 100% chance of a town-loss (which isn't necessarily true), then the only correct way to proceed with the game is assuming Vi-town.

But it seems to be your attitude that Vi-scum = town loss.

A better alternative would be to catch Vi-scum and lynch him if Vi-scum is true.

[Zachrulez]

You're right, but I just don't see Vi doing enough scummy things to push him ahead of everyone else.

For argument's sake, who's scummier than Vi in your eyes right now then?

[Zachrulez]

Hey Zach. Am I scum? (You're welcome to answer this when you're done with GIEFF if you like)

I am leaning that way. Your latest posting antics give me the vibe you are daring us to do something about your play. (As you even admit that abandoning the sens wagon looks really bad.)

[Zachrulez]

So why not attack Vi directly Zach, instead of attacking my lack of attack?

Most people are scummier than Vi. Everyone but you. Maybe Benmage.

Was attacking your mentality toward Vi more than anything else. I find it dangerous to think that way.

What makes me town? I don't think I've ever asked you.

[Zachrulez]

So why not attack Vi directly Zach, instead of attacking my lack of attack?

Most people are scummier than Vi. Everyone but you. Maybe Benmage.

Was attacking your mentality toward Vi more than anything else. I find it dangerous to think that way.

What makes me town? I don't think I've ever asked you.

Just to steal page 100.

[Zachrulez]

KMD, how does my play in this game compare to my play in open 150?

Curious about what you think here.

[Zachrulez]

Wait, weren't you scum there? And I pegged you? But two scum groups in that game. I'd have to look up what my case was on you there. But the two scum group thing might throw it off.

Yes, I was.

[Zachrulez]

I'm 25. I have a wife. I love journey. Just FYI.

Looks like I'm the night-kill tonight. This game is weird. BM is scum. Sens is scum. Spyrex is like my best friend but I now he's scum sort of like in the godfather where it hurts me to say so, but I can't ignore it. Sorry spy-spy. Maybe in the next game we'll be on the same team and I can be your buddy.

See, the problem here is that you're voting for Jammer. He's missing in that paragraph.

[Zachrulez]

You'd have to ask SensFan for details of what he's thinking now, or was thinking. All I can say is that I mentioned that never posting again wasn't acceptable and that I could find a replacement rather easily should he choose to go that way. He chose to keep playing, which means there's an expectation he'll be back posting soon.

As it is, he should still be held to the activity requirements, and I'm noting to that end that his last post was on Friday.

[Zachrulez]

Have you given 2524 any more thought KMD?

[Zachrulez]

Have you given 2524 any more thought KMD?

Nope. Let me find that game.

I can help you with that.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11635

[Zachrulez]

I'd probably support a day 1 mastin lynch in any game I have the misfortune of being stuck with him in.

The strongest point against me in that game was probably the fact that I was lurker hunting on Darkstrike despite the fact that I could be called one myself.

The key difference between this game and that one is probably my activity level.

[Zachrulez]

The key difference between this game and that one is probably my activity level.

What about your alignment? Is that another key difference?

That is what I am driving at by asking him about both games.

[Zachrulez]

... Is this an elaborate "this isn't how I play as scum" business?

Ohh meta, you glorious thing.

Well, I do generally find it easier to be active as town, so I thought I would just put it out there.

[Zachrulez]

So... did KMD pretty much state an intention to lurk through the deadline? Cause that's the way I apparently interpreted the end of his last post.

[Zachrulez]

So... did KMD pretty much state an intention to lurk through the deadline? Cause that's the way I apparently interpreted the end of his last post.

So now that you're egging on the Kmd-hate, what are you doing about it?

What can I do about it?

If he doesn't post, I can either vote for him, or not, and honestly, I'm not really feeling him as scum.

I just wish he was more active.

[Zachrulez]

And from my experience from playing with him in 150, I can pretty much attest to the fact that his play here is pretty much on par to what did there.

He was also a very convenient lynch target in that game too. Something that's resonating as you are pushing on him.

[Zachrulez]

And from my experience from playing with him in 150, I can pretty much attest to the fact that his play here is pretty much on par to what did there.

He was also a very convenient lynch target in that game too. Something that's resonating as you are pushing on him.

You couldn't just defend yourself from wafting suspicion onto someone without wafting suspicion onto someone else, could you~

I guess not. I guess ignoring the behavior and allowing KMD to lurk without being called on it to actually post is preferable...

My experience with Kmd involves him actually explaining his "vote count analysis".

You can't seriously expect me to take that statement at face value when my own experience says something else can you?

[Zachrulez]

And while we're on the subject of lurking, it seems to be something that DDD, Battle Mage, and Jammer are enjoying the cover of while the deadline comes through too.

How's that for wafting around suspicion?...

[Zachrulez]

Actually on the subject of my irritation of all the lurking lately, I just noticed that Battle Mage has generally been quite active in this game up to about a few days ago and has suddenly seemed to have stopped posting in a regular basis.

So one wonders what has suddenly promoted this lack of participation?

[Zachrulez]

Hey Gieff, do you have an updated activity analysis on Battle Mage that we can look at?

[Zachrulez]

ITT Gieff proves he's around and reading the thread, but ignores post 2592.

[Zachrulez]

Seriously? I'm not your maid. That stuff takes a long time, time I don't have right now.

That's fine, I'm doing a rough estimate right now anyway.

[Zachrulez]

Since the 18th Battle Mage has posted 4 times.

Response to Gieff's BM vote

States he is happy with his vote (Which was on DDD I believe)

Unvotes 4 days later on the 22nd

Votes Jammer on "Gut and vague recollections" on the 24th.

I did a rough estimate on BM's average activity and he's at around 8 posts a day. The fact that he's dropped off in activity so quickly stands out to me. (Feel free to verify that if you want Gieff.)

If I were to pick out a lurker right now who appears to be running out the clock, it would be Battle Mage.

Unvote: Vote: Battle Mage

[Zachrulez]

I happy selfhammer myself out of the game.

How noble.

You seem to be happy voting for Jammer.

Is he your preferred lynch? If not who is?

Were you serious about your statement declaring BM, Sens, and Spyrex scum? If so, why aren't you voting for one of them?

[Zachrulez]

What do you think of Spyrex Jammer?

[Zachrulez]

What do you think of Spyrex Jammer?

Or... Jammer, what do you think of Spyrex? A little better worded and less confusing.

[Zachrulez]

Just put in a comma and it's fine:

"What do you think of Spyrex, jammer?"

Either way.

Any thoughts on Battle Mage?

[Zachrulez]

His inactivity is bad, but somewhat explained by the fact that a game he is modding just started up.



It's 7.4 posts / day overall, Zach, so you're right, it was probably about 8 / day before his recent inactivity.

Is that including the days we were in night or without? I took them out.

[Zachrulez]

And while we're on the subject of lurking, it seems to be something that DDD, Battle Mage, and Jammer are enjoying the cover of while the deadline comes through too.

How's that for wafting around suspicion?...

That depends. Do you have evidence that jammer and DDD are onsite but not posting here? Battle Mage, no contest (see below).

Without the search tool... not really.

Actually on the subject of my irritation of all the lurking lately, I just noticed that Battle Mage has generally been quite active in this game up to about a few days ago and has suddenly seemed to have stopped posting in a regular basis.

So one wonders what has suddenly promoted this lack of participation?

I hope you don't think you're the first person to say something about this. <_<

This push from zach feels fake on my end, partly because he hasn't done anything like it up to this point IIRC. In advance, no, I don't care what conflicts of interest that would create.

I didn't realize how much he had dropped out of this game till I actually looked at his most recent posts. I'm not claiming to be the first person to say something about it or the first to notice it. I'm just saying that I definitely see it now and it's standing out to me.

[Zachrulez]

Got some time on a laptop, so I'm checking in.

Vi, it's both. Gut and placement of votes.

Vi/Zach, are you seriously suggesting that I'm going V/LA from the entire site for two weeks to do something I'd never do (intentionally lurk) in one game?

You gotta admit that the timing of your V/LA is not good considering how close we are to the deadline.

Anyway, I'm doubting you are scum at this point anyway.

[Zachrulez]

Hmmm, Jammer's response to my inquiry dissapoints me.

I've gone back to his case, the points against DDD can be applied equally if not more so to Spyrex.

I'd like to know how he gets a scum read on DDD and a town one on Spyrex...

[Zachrulez]

Vi, I don't remember anything more than where I usually look in final vote counts. Look where those names were. That's as much as I remember about it.

What are you trying to show by bolding names that I mentioned before?

----------------------

Looks like BM is our lynch. Let's get some votes.

Unvote, Vote Battle Mage

Uh... no, not yet.

Unvote:

To prevent a quick lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Quick lynch? Really?!?!? Just bus him already.

There's still 5 days to the deadline and there's still discussion going on.

I'm looking at Gieff's case on Jammer now, I am dissapointed in Jammer's response and his case on DDD.

I want to see more from Benmage when he gets back from V/LA, and I want to give Sens a chance to get his case on Gieff out.

All things I think are more important then ramming a lynch through that can still happen later.

[Zachrulez]

Your intent is to try and switch things to Jammer.

If Zach is scum, so is BM. And Jammer would have to be town.

If that's what you think... but I will note your reaction, and also the fact that I am not voting for Jammer at this time.

He needs to explain his case and his reasoning better.

[Zachrulez]

That seems to be what you are predicting I will do regardless.

[Zachrulez]

Maybe not now that I said something. You just want attention shifted away from BM. Jammer was a convenient target. Your next move will be interesting. Personally, I'd just bus BM if I were you.

Hmmm... you seem really certain that BM will flip scum. Something about that bothers me...

[Zachrulez]

If you think it's because I'm bussing him, you have no reason not to be ok with lynching him because it implies that we are both scum.

I had no problem lynching him before. I want my questions answered first though. Also everything else previously mentioned. Sens case, Benmage, ect.

[Zachrulez]

Vote Spyrex

Why not? I still hate that lynch -1 vote.

[Zachrulez]

FTR I will still support a BM lynch over a Jammer lynch.

[Zachrulez]

great... just great... now BM has only 3 votes... People keep leaving his waggon... I wonder why...

SpyreX did some scummy things but is much more active and logical than BM.

Lynch BM.

Tomorrow we'll see who we lynch.

I thought he had 4...

[Zachrulez]

If nothing changes, I will be changing my vote to BM probably on the day of the deadline.

[Zachrulez]

Why not just have a 2nd preference for lynch Alex?

[Zachrulez]

unvote

vote GIEFF

What the hell are you doing? What's up with this self vote bullshit?

[Zachrulez]

I've been trying to read all this stuff that has come up between Gieff and Spyrex that hasn't changed my mind about Spyrex being the best lynch of the day... which culminates in Gieff voting for himself, and claiming V/LA until the day after the deadline, like seriously... WTF?

Then there's Alexhans who has unvoted Battle Mage after calling him scum all day with the demeanor that he's no longer sure Battle Mage is scum... again, WTF?

Then there's Benmage who has now posted, I don't have much of a problem with the positions he has taken.

KMD, who posted, but didn't really say anything of value.

Sensfan, who I'd really like to see post his case that he claims he has on Gieff.

Anything I missed?

[Zachrulez]

Cosmic question: Why do you (Zachrulez) only seem to show up when something dramatic happens, and then disappear for a while again?

Since this has more to do with my availability, and/or my desire to do things other than post on mafiascum every 5 minutes, I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for here.

[Zachrulez]

What has DDD done in the last 9 days?

My best post of the game happened within the last nine days and why are you drawing such an arbitrary line in the sand?

Really, I'm just incredibly annoyed with GIEFF who seems to be doing his damnedest to secure a no lynch. He broke up the Battle Mage wagon in favor of a SpyreX wagon and then broke that up in favor of a self-vote? Seriously? How the hell does that help the town at all. He'll probably come back and explain it was some elaborate trap, but at this point I'm only too happy to oblige him in his quest to get himself lynched.

Unvote; Vote: GIEFF

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with this, that's exactly how it looks to me right now.

Unvote: Vote: Gieff

If he's not part of the solution he's part of the problem.

[Zachrulez]

How many times have people accused me of distracting from lynches? How many times has it been true?




I think DDD is an acceptable lynch, better than me, at this point. I hate lynching yet ANOTHER lurker, but I may have defended him too strongly, enabling him to lurk more. I'd MUCH rather lynch Spyrex or Sens.


But seriously, before you lynch me, think about what you'll learn when I flip town. It won't be a whole lot. You'll get something from this run-up to my lynch, but probably not enough to get a scum.



Notice how scared Spyrex was to vote me, even when I became the leading wagon?

This time it is true Gieff. When you change your vote so close to deadline, it makes it much harder to reach consensus on a lynch.

*sigh* Now that you're back and voting for Spyrex again...

Unvote: Vote: Spyrex

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, and I didn't miss Alex calling me and Gieff scum without a willingness to vote for either of us. Gieff became a viable lynch with his self vote, so why more interested in Jammer?

Cosmic question: Why do you (Zachrulez) only seem to show up when something dramatic happens, and then disappear for a while again?

This^^

This is the kind of things that make me change so much...

I've been thinking that Zach and GIEFF were the most rational. But suddenly I think theyre good scum.

Oh wow... Alexhans is pushing this? I've actually had more time to think about this question and I realize that it's a loaded one. I have to admit that I'm playing the way Vi describes to even answer the question (Which I'm not.) and if I don't, then hey, I'm scum dodging the question. Yeah...

[Zachrulez]

Hey Zach. Could you explain your thought process on jumping to GIEFF and back?

Irritation with Gieff self voting and de-railing the Spyrex wagon, and wanting to lynch him instead of a no-lynch if he was seriously going to keep that vote on and stay V/la until the deadline. Since he came back and put his vote on Spyrex, who I still prefer for a lynch, I changed back.

I had always planned on changing back in the scenario that Gieff came back and explained. (The vote was partly for pressure in that regard) The only scenario where I was going to leave it was if Gieff didn't come back. (As that would be derailing a major wagon and lurking until deadline.)

[Zachrulez]

Oh, and I should note that I am really really disliking Alexhans now.

I'd be interested in exploring him if we had more time, but we don't. I find it unlikely that we would be able to get a bandwagon going on him.

I really hate 2767. It does little to support his vote on Jammer, which is pretty much a safe place to park a vote on someone who's unlikely to get lynched at this point, and the 2nd paragraph of the post gives me the vibe of scum frustrated at the difficulty of securing a lynch on players. Notice how it expresses annoyance with getting a lynch in general, and not a lynch on Battlemage. (The tone of the post seems to betray the image he was attempting to portray for most of the day.)

[Zachrulez]

Zach. Outside that one self-vote, how scummy is GIEFF IYO?

Not scummy enough to lynch, as evidenced by my vote change. The main things about him that bother me are his frequency in changing his vote, while not necessarily having the same person that he prefers to lynch in his vote, and not being entirely clear who he actually wants lynched compared to who he's voting for until he's asked. (Scum can easily hide behind this logic.) I also didn't like the push on Alex at the point where Mastin seemed to be the inevitable wagon on day 1, but that was day 1, and Mastin flipped town, for all I know he was right. Ditto for the disagreements on day 2.

I would say that I'm actually leaning town on Gieff, as long as he doesn't self vote, deflating a major bandwagon near deadline and ACTUALLY go V/LA...

[Zachrulez]

2775 is fascinating. I'm really not getting the same feel from Alex as I did from the last game I played from him.

And Alex, I can deal with an FOS. Honestly you probably have more reasons to vote for me at this point than you do for Jammer. (Not that I necessarily agree with any of them.)

[Zachrulez]

2775 is fascinating. I'm really not getting the same feel from Alex as I did from the last game I played from him.

Yeah. Last game I was playing at this point. In this game... I've read so many ridiculous posts that my will to spew all this "logical conclusions", "blah blah", has been drained... GIEFF has accused everyone in the game in turn. If I went for my normal parameters... I should be voting him too... For going after me and Camn with fake (IMO) logic. Then others, etc, etc. There's so many people to vote...

The difference between you and me is that Im tired of this same old thing we are doing... discussing nothing and just running around in circles of pure WIFOM and vote hopping...

Im tired. Very tired.

Why dont we all VOTE and KEEP the vote there and be done with it. THE END. If you don't like my vote on jammer and think I'm scum vote me... But don't annoy me with supposed logic and things that should make sense because we know that if everything was like it was supposed to be we would've caught scum by now and lurkers wouldn't have been able to do it without being replaced.

If you want me to vote and keep my vote there and be done with it, then I should keep my vote on Spyrex.

And Alex, I can deal with an FOS. Honestly you probably have more reasons to vote for me at this point than you do for Jammer. (Not that I necessarily agree with any of them.)

Do you think I should vote you over jammer and BM? or just over jammer?

I'll let you interpret that however you want. Afterall it's your vote.

[Zachrulez]

Who do you think is scum on your wagon Gieff?

[Zachrulez]

Would like to hear from KMD and Alexhans and see if they are interested in changing their votes at all.

Really would like to see Spyrex lynched here, really don't want to see a Gieff lynch personally. I don't like the speed of the bandwagon or the people on it.

[Zachrulez]

Are you trying to say you find Vi more suspicious than Spyrex at this point?

[Zachrulez]

Well at any rate, I should be around on and off pretty much up to the deadline.

[Zachrulez]

back from paintball... why is GIEFF being lynched? Why does Benmage vote SpyreX instead of jammer? KMD... we can change the outcome of this vote... Do we prefer SpyreX or GIEFF? I think SpyreX is a better lynch than GIEFF.

So, for now....

unvote, Vote SpyreX

.

Also, How many hours from now to deadline?

Wow... I am surprised by that.

Here's why...

Caught up. Back from paddle today. physically very tired. MEntally not in a mood to get worked up over this game.

MOD: sorry about the small text... I thought it was not against the rules because it was readable.

I'm surprised no one has commented in my sudden unvote of BM... Why is that?

KMD: why is zach a good lynch?

unvote

vote GIEFF

V/LA until monday

Then there's Alexhans who has unvoted Battle Mage after calling him scum all day with the demeanor that he's no longer sure Battle Mage is scum... again, WTF?

glad you noticed. Yes. I was NEVER sure. I was very confident. Wich Im not right now.

As for the reasons. Beside his AtE. Something has been bugging me for a while. Why would BM go for Cephir town with such intensity unless he was scum with Vi. Why would he go to the spotlight so much.

And I remembered this: "Never Attribute To Malice That Which Can Be Adequately Explained By Stupidity." Here, I should change stupidity with "what I see as a stupid way to play".

Cosmic question: Why do you (Zachrulez) only seem to show up when something dramatic happens, and then disappear for a while again?

This^^

This is the kind of things that make me change so much...

I've been thinking that Zach and GIEFF were the most rational. But suddenly I think theyre good scum.

I'm willing to wager that at most one of the scum in this game has been a leading wagon for over 200 posts, and that more specifically at least two of the scum is between {alexhans, GIEFF, Zachrulez, Kmd4390, DDD, SpyreX, jammer}.

2 in 7? lame... Add Vi there too...

Vote jammer

,

why? I don't like a SpyreX lynch. I'm not sure of a BM lynch anymore and gut.

when is the deadline? What time?

It will be an interesting thing when the game ends and we see who scum really are and who just contributed to town's demise.

And, seriously, no one other than Zach noted my Battle Mage unvote?

[Zachrulez]

I'd like to see KMD cast a vote personally.

Mainly because at this point, anyone else on either bandwagon changing their vote has the deadline as an excuse to escape responsibility.

[Zachrulez]

It's Zach.

Anyway, the self vote / quit threat was really bad, that I will not deny.

As for padding his case, the thing that bothers me about Gieff, which has pretty much been the case for most of the game is the way he makes a case on someone, votes them, and then later on without much explanation he repeats the process on a new player. It's hard to tell if his suspicions are genuine, who he's suspicious of, and who he really wants lynched.

Last statement kinda threw me off. What repetition of the point are you referring to?

[Zachrulez]

To be honest with you Spyrex, right now I'm trying to determine how serious you are about your willingness to self hammer, which also happens to be something that Gieff hasn't offered to do.

Mainly because if you are serious, it becomes a lot more likely that you are actually town, and personally, I'd really like to make that determination before you actually self hammer...

[Zachrulez]

Wagons that build out of nothing to lynch -1 as quickly as Gieff's did are much more likely to have scum on them IMO.

As for the wagon itself.

DDD: Basically wants him lynched for self voting.

Spyrex: Is my preferred lynch as of this 5 minutes.

Vi: I'm wary of.

Jammer: Gave Gieff an Ultimatum in 94 iso which is bothering me. Vote DDD or I'll vote you. Blegh.

Sensfan: Voted, no case, would really like one.

[Zachrulez]

Wagons that build out of nothing to lynch -1 as quickly as Gieff's did are much more likely to have scum on them IMO.

At the time of your SpyreX vote, the people voting GIEFF on this apparent Miracle-Gro wagon were:
*GIEFF
*DDD
*you

Rrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

As for timewise, GIEFF went to L-1 in 83 posts with SensFan's vote.
SpyreX went to L-1 in 86 posts with alex's vote.

In addition, since your vote on SpyreX the GIEFF wagon has never been larger than the SpyreX wagon.

Got any better excuses?

Vote Count:

GIEFF (5): Debonair Danny DiPietro, SpyreX, Vi, jammer, SensFan
SpyreX (4): Benmage, GIEFF, Zachrulez, Battle Mage
Battle Mage (1): Kmd4390
jammer (1): alexhans

Not Voting: None

6 to lynch, even at deadline (Sunday, August 30 at midnight Eastern Time)

As lies go, that one is a whopper.

[Zachrulez]

Vi claims an 86 post wagon to lynch -1 on Spyrex, but ignores that the only reason I took off my Spyrex vote was because of Gieff's self vote. Had that not happened, this push to lynch -1 with Spyrex would have happened over a lot more posts.

Just want that clear, since the attempt to discredit my claims are based on the semantics of numbers.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, Gieff self voted on Friday, and is at lynch -1 2 days later.

Which is a pretty fast building bandwagon, despite Vi's claims to the contrary. (Oh it's 86 posts vs 83, so you're lying. What the fuck ever dude.)

Seriously, we're talking about weeks of pushing to get Spyrex lynched vs 2 days on Gieff.

So yeah, I'm a tad offended at being called a liar on this matter.

I'd also like to know how I sparked the "rapid growth" of the Gieff wagon, being that when I unvoted, he only had 1 vote on him. (DDD's)

And if I knew why Gieff self voted, this would be a lot easier wouldn't it?

[Zachrulez]

Day 1 lynch vote count

Mastin (8): Debonair Danny DiPietro,

VP Baltar

, Kmd4390, Zachrulez, SpyreX,

GIEFF

, Benmage,

camn

Battle Mage (2):

Mastin

, alexhans
alexhans (1): Battle Mage

Not Voting:

Cephrir, blackcatcontract

, SensFan, jammer

Peak Benmage wagon (I looked for the votecount where he had the most votes.

Vote Count:

Benmage (5): SensFan, Zachrulez,

GIEFF

, jammer, Benmage

Day 2 lynch vote count

Final Vote Count:

Cephrir (7): Debonair Danny DiPietro, Benmage, jammer, SpyreX, Zachrulez,

camn

, SensFan
blackcatcontract (2):

GIEFF

, alexhans
Benmage (1):
GIEFF (1): Kmd4390
Zachrulez (1): Battle Mage

Not Voting:

Cephrir, blackcatcontract

Day 3 lynch vote count

Final Vote Count:

GIEFF (6): Debonair Danny DiPietro, SpyreX,

Vi

, jammer, SensFan,

GIEFF

SpyreX (4): Benmage, Zachrulez, Battle Mage, alexhans
Battle Mage (1): Kmd4390

Not Voting: None

Preliminary conclusion:

Only 2 people have been on all 3 lynching bandwagons DDD, and Spyrex.

Take a guess as to where I'd like us to start looking for our scum.

[Zachrulez]

I hate people that throw games.

Omg lol, are you the pot, or the kettle.

I couldn't resist! welcome back. Wow I did not see Vi being the kill target of the night.

Who did you see being the target? I'm curious as to the answer since you brought the topic up.

[Zachrulez]

Shut the fuck up this instant.

Never, ever, ever imply again that I do not play to win. Ever.

Bro chill the fuck out, I did it comically. Your the one who tried to stop posting in a game...geeze

This unproductive crap needs to leave the game yesterday.

[Zachrulez]

vote Zachrulez

Why?

[Zachrulez]

By the way, there's not a snowball's chance in hell that there weren't scum on Gieff's wagon.

[Zachrulez]

vote Zachrulez

Why?

Your scum.

But in actuality. It's partly gut. It's partly because of your overrall play. I didn't like your whole reaction in D2 to how i opened, nor to how I self voted.

Something about that doesn't seem right. The way your first line saying I'm scum transitions into a paragraph about why you REALLY voted for me, which tends to indicate that you aren't voting for me because you think I'm scum. Strange...

What stopped you from voting for me over it on day 2 or day 3? If you think it was scummy, that's fair enough, but it seems opportunistic to leave it for 2 game days only to jump on it now.

I also dislike this recent vote count list of yours. Seeing has actually put faith into DDD and SpryeX. In the mass of confusion that this game has endured and with the hating of lurkers, and the rush at the last deadline I don't see scum feeling the need to push wagons, and would be more worried about those off the wagons. Town vote, because town need to find scum.

Two simple questions here.

What is wrong with the vote count lists I posted?

Why does it put faith in DDD and Spyrex for you?

[Zachrulez]

I'm not being a rebel. Zach is obvscum. I could stand for a Jammer lynch, and probably a DDD lynch too.

I'll switch to Jammer if needed.

BM

*raises eyebrow*

[Zachrulez]

It's nice to see people who've already made up their mind before everyone has checked in.

No, really.

[Zachrulez]

Zach... I made up my mind yesterday.

Yeah, that's kinda the point I'm making.

[Zachrulez]

Well, Spyrex's reaction was what I was waiting for.

Vote: DDD

If one of the two is town, it's Spyrex.

[Zachrulez]

Spyrex, who do you think is more likely scum between me and DDD?

[Zachrulez]

The way it looks like things are going, I have a feeling I'm going to be lynched pretty quickly today.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not surprised that you have issues with my analysis Spyrex.

Any specific examples of these issues with my play you are having besides that?

[Zachrulez]

BTW: I'm not expecting much of a further explanation from Benmage or Battle Mage about their votes on me as it's pretty much par for the course that this point...

[Zachrulez]

So we've got "gut" + "?" + (trying to get Alex's vote) for the reasons on Zach?

Sweet.

Yeah, it's great isn't it?

So Spyrex, what do you think of DDD's vote on Spyrex after he spent the majority of the day talking about how he was more suspicious of you? His vote could have made the difference yesterday. (In that he could have lynched you easily had he wanted with the votes tied at 5.)

[Zachrulez]

So we've got "gut" + "?" + (trying to get Alex's vote) for the reasons on Zach?

Sweet.

Yeah, it's great isn't it?

So Spyrex, what do you think of DDD's vote on

Spyrex

Gieff

after he spent the majority of the day talking about how he was more suspicious of you? His vote could have made the difference yesterday. (In that he could have lynched you easily had he wanted with the votes tied at 5.)

Corrected.

[Zachrulez]

At the time I assumed it was a bus. As it sits, I am not sure.

What do you think about DDD saying barring something seismic he wont be voting for you?

I think that while I appreciate the sentiment, I don't ever remember him explaining why he thinks I'm town, so it bothers me a lot.

[Zachrulez]

What do you think about it? One of your prevailing theories was that we were both scum was it not?

[Zachrulez]

KMD is so predictable it's depressing.

[Zachrulez]

Ben, Jammer was on every mislynch except Mastin's, where he wasn't voting at all. Zach neglected to mention this, so not only is Jammer likely scum, but Zach also just connected Jammer to him.

Zach, what is the purpose of your last post?

Funny how you've only started noticing this now. Yes, this is a consequence of having a town vibe on Jammer since the start of the game.

I have had issues with his later game play, but I'm still not convinced he's scum.

I would say I'd be willing to take his lynch over mine if it came to that, but at this point I'm getting more and more fed up with the game and am pretty close to viewing a lynch that gets me out of this game as a plus...

[Zachrulez]

I also explained the intent of my Gieff vote in detail yesterday before his lynch happened, which also included my reasoning for unvoting.

[Zachrulez]

^You sound so much like Jammer's scumbuddy in that post. Just sayin'.

You do know that scum links are poor play until you actually have a scum flip right?

[Zachrulez]

So let's lynch you and then your buddy Jammer after you flip scum.

Small problem with that...

[Zachrulez]

Battle Mage I believe spent a good portion of the game believing I was town, and then quickly changed his mind after I pressed on Alexhans to explain his changes in position better.

Alexhans, and Battle Mage in fact are people I think we need to hear more from.

I could go either way on KMD, but the way he's accusing me via links is not something I believe he did in open 150 when he was town. It could be a red flag. I'll have to look more into it.

[Zachrulez]

Jammer, I am saying that Zach made a good point about Spy and DDD, but neglected to mention you when you weren't even voting at the end of Day 1, but were on the other mislynches. A Zachscumflip probably means you are a good place to look.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't want to lynch you (Jammer) until we get a flip from Zach. If not Zach, we are lynching either Spy or DDD. I could still compromise on BM too.

Yes, it is a logical move for scum. He says he's had a town read on you all game which is consistent with his posts, but then points out that your later play is scummy. So he effectively sets himself up to look ok if you are lynched.

What chainsaw are you referring to?

You probably didn't notice me because I was V/LA. I got back today though and will be back to trying to refrain from spamming. Don't expect to see me lurk any time soon.

Btw, Jammer, why is Spy your biggest town read? Elaborate on Zach, who you have right in the middle.

Hilarious. There's no way in hell I look good under any circumstances if Jammer is lynched and flips scum. I am well aware of this. I'm just acknowledging facts and the possibility that I could be wrong, there's no attempt to look better, because if I am wrong about Jammer I am going to look really bad.

[Zachrulez]

Also KMD, why are Spyrex and DDD higher in your lynch priority than BM all of the sudden? It seems strange that you seem to have my points about them being on all the mislynches on the ready in case the town goes that way to make yourself look better hmmm?

[Zachrulez]

So wait, I was a little confused with Jammer in that paticular post... but he claimed a chainsaw defense vote on KMD based on KMD's vote of me?

[Zachrulez]

And I was confused with it because I thought he was accusing KMD of some kind of chainsaw defense.

[Zachrulez]

Something is really starting to bother me about KMD and Jammer. I need to try to put my finger on it.

[Zachrulez]

Your intent is to try and switch things to Jammer.

If Zach is scum, so is BM. And Jammer would have to be town.

This specifically bothers me right now. Yesterday he accused me of trying to mislynch him, today he's my scum partner. (I assume for consistency he will argue BM is too.)

[Zachrulez]

^ That vote puts Jammer at lynch -1 by the way.

[Zachrulez]

Your intent is to try and switch things to Jammer.

If Zach is scum, so is BM. And Jammer would have to be town.

This specifically bothers me right now. Yesterday he accused me of trying to mislynch him, today he's my scum partner. (I assume for consistency he will argue BM is too.)

Shit. Forgot about that...

Hmm. The speed of this wagon makes me uncomfortable. And of course Spy is the L-2 vote. Hmm.

Unvote, Vote Spy

for blatantly bandwagoning all game. Zach just reminded me why I think Jammer is town. I think Spy/Zach/BM is the scumteam. Spyscum meands DDDtown and Zachscum means Jammertown. I think I actually have this figured out now.

You forgot about it? You wrote it. It's not even that far back in the game and we had a heated exchange about it.

That contradiction is really bad, made worse by the fact that you don't seem to be doing much in the way of actually reading the game. (Which would have easily reminded you of your position if you had.)

Unvote: Vote: KMD

Now to iso KMD to see where he's had Jammer on his scumlist all game.

[Zachrulez]

KMD also continues to contradict himself with his own previous logic.

Zach, the links are more somewhere to look if you do flip scum. I'm not voting you

because

of links.

You did say that his later play is scummy. It sets you up to say that you at least did suspect him slightly.

Spy and DDD are higher priority because they were on every mislynch. I don't expect that people would have gone that way if I ignored it. I dug it up from quite a few pages back.

-----------------------

So Sens and Ben are very likely town. Jammer can wait until we get a Zach flip. Alex has looked pretty town, but could be scum if BM is. So we can forget about lynching Alex before BM. That means I'd rather not lynch the following players: Sens, Ben, Jammer, Alex.

Instead, I want to focus on: Zach, Spy, DDD, BM.

So we could:

-Lynch Zach
----If town, I'd suspect Spy and DDD the most.

----If scum, I'd suspect Jammer the most.
-Lynch BM
----If town, I don't feel much would change except that Alex would probably be grouped with Sens and Ben as obvtown.
----If scum, I look at Alex next.
-Lynch Spy
----If town, I suspect DDD and possibly Jammer (Zach's point about the mislynches. I expect at least one of the three, if not two, is scum. Probably not all three.)

----If scum, Jammer is probably scum because of the way Spy's gone after DDD. Zach is probably town in this case.

-Lynch DDD
----If town, not much changes
----If scum, Zach and Spy are probably town. BM, Alex, and Jammer are left by process of elimination.

Conclusion: A DDD lynch would be best ONLY if we are confident that he'd flip scum. I'm personally not too confident on that. Lynching Spy or Zach probably gives us the most info. Lynching BM gives us the least.

So...

I want to lynch either Zach or Spy today.

And now we're scum together. Nice. That's now two contradictions. Or did you forget that argument too?