/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[Claus]

I refuse to conform!

[Claus]

We're not using that. It is silly, and the game hasn't even begun yet. Farside is probably just looking very sternly at the two slowpokes who are preventing us from playing :-/

[Claus]

Whops. Sorry Elvis...

[Claus]

Vote: Yosarian2

Better safe than sorry

[Claus]

Claus, are you scum?

I'm sad that you couldn't think of a more interesting question for me

No I'm not scum. How about you?

Also, why are you not voting Yos?

==

@Alex: Yeah. One thing I have learned from experience is whenever I play with Yos, he is scum. Better safe than sorry. Unless you have a better candidate?

[Claus]

Better question for thesp. You got two dayvigs that you must spend immediately. Who do you pick?

[Claus]

Post 1 - General comments on posts which have picked my interest
Post 2 - My opinion on current wagons and new vote.

===
@Xyl, VP-Baltar

I like 115 from Xyl and 117 from VP. I also thought that 82 from Ekim a bit suspect. I have played with him as scum quite recently, and he was a timid scum. 82 fits the bill a little.

@VP- Baltar: What do you think of E_K and the E_K wagon?
@Ekim- So, do you still think one of the 5 you pointed is scum? who is more likely? Why are you not voting one of them? Opinion on current wagons?

===
@alexhans

Clearly I do. The guy I'm voting (...)

I see. I can't vote on the guy you are voting, however, it goes against my religion. Can you suggest someone else?

What happened to Yos in those games? (...) Don't you feel you can read him a bit better?

He got killed in the first game after I died (Dynamite Mafia), and survived to endgame in the second game (New Catania 2). Yeah, I think I can get a good read of Yos as scum after these experiences, so If I ever start to shout and point at him angrily jumping up and down, please listen to me

=======

@Thesp

Well, let's think - on a scale of 2 to 17, how crafty are you?

I'd say 5. I tend to be quite direct about my opinions, instead of going roundabout and/or playing wifom games. I would put a 2 or 3, but I like to look in unlikely places for scumtells when re-reading (indirect craftiness )

I would like to know a few things about you thesp:
1- did your crack team of investigators come to any conclusion about Yos?
2- Which of the answers to your questions would you say were signs of pro-town/anti-town alignment? Which were interesting in other ways?
3- I'm interested in your scumread of BaB, would you elaborate?
4- What do you think about E_K?

===
@mith

Could we get a "not voting" list from the next votecount on, please?

[Claus]

Post 2/2:


About E_K:
The 4th vote on Xyl in 81 was a bit opportunistic, but the overreaction, specially the OMGUSy defense, against Kmd's attacks puts Elvis in my Scum list. The "SLIP! SLIP!" is bull and malicious.

About Xyl/Kmd:
I don't really feel the Xyl wagon. 115 is a good one from him. The Kmd wagon is silly.

About BaB:
I'm not really seeing what is scummy about BaB, but I wouldn't mind having someone explain it to me. 85 was a bit townie, 100 was a bit too forceful, but E_K's defense was scummy. Being voted by Thesp, who I'm getting some scummy vibes from, makes him a bit pro-town.

Thesp:
I'm get a few scummy vibes from thesp - he's playing with his cards too close to his chest.

Ekim:
I found 82 to be too timid. Somewhat like active lurking. (posting just to avoid disappearing, without contributing)

Unvote, Vote Elvis_Knits

FoS: Ekim

mFos: Thesp

===
@IAUN - so you don't like the Xyl wagon. What about BaB, E_K and Kmd?

[Claus]

Replying Elvis Scum

1) Why was my vote on Xyl opportunistic? Do you think his vote on Yos was good?

It was a 4th vote on a bandwagon, with a joke reason,

when you had already random voted before

- if you honestly just wanted to join a wagon for the heck of it, you would have done it when you voted inhim.

Also. you questioning me about Xyl's votes says that you are trying to change your story from a joke vote ("I don't like cats") into a serious vote ("bad vote on yos"). You're being malicious all around, Elvis.

2) Where did I overreact and why is that a scum tell?

That's the impression I get from reading 94. It reads too nervous for a second vote, like someone who was not expecting to be caught redhanded trying to sneak into a wagon.

3) My definition of OMGUS is counterattacking/countervoting a person for NO OTHER REASON than they voted you.

Yes. And this is what you're doing towards KMD. You are attacking him with an easy reason ("SLIP SLIP") to try and discredit his attack. Your stated "reasons" are frivolous and malicious.

4) Explain the "malicious" part.

You vote KMD because you say he never said "I assumed", but he actually does say that:

There are exactly four scum in this game? ORLY?

4 scum plus a traitor.

(... skip ...)

I think this is a potential slip,(...)

I actually thought we had 16 players and

assumed

25%,

Of course, when you quote KMD on 97, you cut away the "assume". That is malicious to me.

But are we really in the business of letting players name the scum team without giving any reasons whatsoever? There's no indication he's joking there. He says it's "not random."

I personally encourage that. I love it when people play with their cards open in the table. Of course, giving reasons would be even better, but I settle for knowing who each player suspects, whatever the reason. (I may not agree with them about their scumlist, or even find the list itself scummy, but that's another story completely)

====

@alexhans

Then it would be better for you to leave him alive and lynch some other player, wouldn't it? Unless you have a scum read... Have you?

I guess you didn't get the memo where it says I'm not voting Yos anymore. (He's currently yellow on my "YoScum radar. I'm waiting for Yos to contribute more).

Right now I find Elvis to be scum. Her vote on Xyl was opportunistic, and her attack on KMD was desperate, shallow and reaching. What do you think about that?

====

@ROFLcopter

elvis wagon is weaksauce. claus' attack against elvis seems primarily like a means to discredit wagons on either kmd or bnb, which is chainsawriffic.

My primary goal of my Elvis vote is to Lynch her. Her attack on Kmd, which was reaching and malicious, was indeed a big factor for me to find her scummy - is attacking a player because of his/her bad logic that bad? However, I don't have a strong opinion either way on the BnB wagon at the moment.

My points on Elvis is that she tried to creep into the Xyl wagon (and now is changing her story about whether she found Xyl scummy or was just bandwagoning for fun), and when Kmd called her on it, she overreacted and started a reaching/misrep case on Kmd.

How much do you disagree with this?

[Claus]

I'm kinda busy this saturday, so don't expect a detailed post from me. Also I'll be under heavy V/LA between the 20 and 24th, would anyone like to be my proxy in the period?

I want to take the time to read elvis defenses more carefully. In the meanwhile, Elvis, would you make a list of the 4 most scum-looking players for you? (If you already did it, just pointing to the post is enough).

VP_Baltar - the "malicious" means mainly that Elvis misrep KMD on the "certain/assumed" thing. I think I have explained it in my answer to her. Repeating a simple word over and over may be a vice from me being ESL.

I'd like to hear more from yos. I mean, much more. He has managed not to comment on the 4 big wagon cases and all the collateral accusations, at the same time keeping a serious-but-not-pushing vote on a lurker.

Sitting in the background: This is what I have seen Yos-scum do in the games I have played with him, and what I have seen Yos-town not do the games I've read him in.

[Claus]

Hello!

I'm a bit too tired to post today, but I really would like to read and comment on the recent developments. So would you guys please avoid hammering BaB in the next 24 hours or so?

BaB, just in case you are quicklynched, could you give us a list of the 5 scummiest players in the game so far? Thanks!

See you tomorrow!

Yos, answering your question - I think that staying back and "listening" without contributing, for the sake of "gathering information" is scummy if you never return that information you supposedly got back to the town - and it doesn't really seem that you will. It is a great excuse for scum not to contribute. "Oh, no, I'm not talking because... yes, I'm observing, yes! hehehe". All of this counts double coming from you, who I see as contributing a lot as town, and "sits back and observes" a lot as scum.

I see you have posted a bit in the last few pages, so I may change my opinion when I come to read them tomorrow.

[Claus]

I will not take the time to try and defuse a wagon on someone who is not helping himself.

BaB, list of scummy people, please. 10 days is too much - if you want a "break", you have to make one yourself by saying who you think is scummy.

--

unvote: Elvis

- I'm not so sure she is scum anymore. Reasons are some meta reading I made of her. She's not completely out of my view yet, though.

Vote: Yos

- I would also be happy voting Thesp or Ekim. I would not mind a Xyl, E_K or SerialClergy wagon. I'll give details when BaB gets out of his ass and posts a scumlist.

[Claus]

E_K: I would really like to hear him give us his thoughts on who is scum. For me, from a player that is under risk of lynch, that is even more important than the claim. If he is town, that is his real chance to save his skin. If he is scum, that is our chance to get him to trip over himself and give the town info (even if under a coat of WIFOM).

Yos: I would LOVE to explain it - you know that there are few things in a game of mafia that I enjoy more than speaking to lengths about how I find you scummy <3. But I decided that I will wait until either BaB puts forth his thoughts on the game (who he thinks is scummy), or get lynched. Ask me again when one of these things happen.

[Claus]

We don't need to stall the game (and I absolutely disagree with the 12 day thing), but we can surely wait until his next post to see if he will keep trying to stall us or not.

[Claus]

Ok. I'm back. I'm very disappointed at BaB's response. He is now in the "acceptable lynch" territory for me, but I still prefer a Thesp/Yos/Ikem lynch for D1.

===
@Tajo

Claus is very protective of Bab. Claus, what do you think of bab, what is preventing you from suspecting him?

I'm not as protective of Bab, as I am suspicious of his wagon. Too fast, superficial reasons. Some of the people on the BaB wagon are very scummy in my eyes (Yos, Thesp, Ikem). Some people I have a strong town read on have avoided/fought the wagon. This tells me that the wagon is either full of scum, or scum motivated.

Right now, however, I'm no longer _opposed_ to the wagon. After BaB's defense, I'm considering the idea that I am wrong. Specially the stalling/lurkerhunt, when I asked him for his opinion in the game. I still prefer a Thesp/Yos/Ikem wagon, though.
===

@BaB - It is probably useless to ask you this, but I want you to classify your wagon into "scum", "town" and "don't know". Reasons are a big plus, but if you need one week to think them up, just post the classification from gut, without reasons.

===
@Roflcopter
You keep saying I'm scum, but you have given no reasons, or asked me any questions. What makes you think that I'm scum, other than the fact that I disagree with you on who is scum?

===
I will now write my opinions on Yos/Thesp/Ikem (sorry for the delay, Yos!), and from tomorrow on I will be V/LA until the 24th - probably without net. If you have an outstanding question to me, I probably skipped it, so please post it again in 12 hours or so if you want me to answer it.

[Claus]

The Triad of Evil
Or why Thesp, Ekim and Yos are bad kids and will get coal for Xmas.

tl;dr version first:

Ekim jumped on the two major bandwagons (5th and 6th vote), without a case and without commenting on anything else in the game.

Yos sat back, threatened to join the Xyl wagon when it was big (without discussing it much), then pushed and joined the biggest bandwagon (B&B) while commenting almost nothing else about the game - also Yos scum meta.

Thesp does not seem interested in anything about the game other than the BnB wagon, and yet has not improved his case on BnB from his original suspicion 200 posts ago.

I'm willing to vote on any of the above three, and will switch to the biggest wagon on them before going V/LA. I would like everyone to please tell me your opinion on each of these cases, thanks

===

Long Version:

@Ekim

The reasons for finding Ekim scummy are pretty straightforward. Ikem has lurked during most of the game, and still, managed to hop on the two biggest wagons: Xyl, on post 82 (5th vote), and BaB, on post 142 (6th vote).

On his Xyl vote, he also waved his hand at 5 players, calling them lurking scum. Which he cleared as a joke. On his BaB vote (his next vote after the Xyl vote), he makes a bunch of light questions to players, and doesn't follow up in any of those questions (although he does go V/LA 24 hours later).

Hopping on big bandwagons without contributing to the game is a pretty textbook scumtell, and the fact that very few people are pushing Ekim for it is another signal of scummyness: If he was town, I can see scum making a case on him early and go for a "righteous myslinch".

@Yos:

Yos case is more interesting, and a bit more meta based. But still (for me at least), it seems pretty clear where Yos is scummy.

First, my general meta on Yos is that he active, and make and comments on a variety of cases when he is town. When he is scum, he stays more in the wall, making posts that don't really move the game forward, and tries to avoid starting cases, preferring to join/support cases instead in early game.

And this is how I see Yos in the game. Not participating, reactive. Picking particular posts:

Yos first "attacks" someone, very lightly, on post 175, where he finds shabba scummy, and "would join" the Xyl wagon. Shabba was a low poster at that time, and Yos accusation against her goes nowhere until very recently, when he reinforces it a bit. Xyl was the main wagon, and even though Yos claims to support it, he gives no reason or participate on the discussion. He says BaB is scummy on 254 and 292 (avoiding discussing on anything else in the game), until he votes him on 308 - coincidentally, when the wagon was losing gas.

It seems to me that Yos wanted to support the wagon without joining it if possible, and join the wagon when he sees it is not possible. Quite contrary to a pro-town player who would make a case on someone, vote for him and keep pushing the wagon.

=

Something else that bothers me in Yos: I asked him why he was not contributing on the KMD/Elvis/B&B fight, Elvis did too. Xyl asked why Yos was only interested in the main wagons. Yos' answer to these questions was quite flippant. He tries to brush off at first, (234), and again on (240), saying that he got more information, but not stating what.

When I ask him about the information, he come with (289) "We got a ton of information, if KMD is scum, one of his scumbuddies is in the Elvis wagon" - Wow. That's a ton of info you got from excusing yourself from the first big discussion on D1. He says the he (289) "didn't agree with Elvis/KMD/B&B, but didn't want to defend any of them" - well, Yos could have tried then questioning one of the 17 players in the game, but he didn't do that, he just allowed the catfighting (which he didn't agree with, btw) to go on. Scum motivation: maybe a strong wagon would come out of it - and it did.

@Thesp

My case on Thesp is not as strong as the two above, and is based on a much larger amount of gut. Still, I like it enough to fully support a Thesp wagon based on it. Would love comments.

Initially, Thesp caught my attention by avoiding questions made at him (like my first few questions in the RVS), and playing with his cards too close to his chest. He is among the first to vote BaB on 112, but does explain his vote or push the case, letting his vote sit there.

A bunch of small nothings, then his post (2 days later) he finally explains his accusation on BnB, saying that he suspects him for trying to "exploit E_K's suspicion of the number of scum". At that time, I found it funny because I (and others) also attacked E_K for her "slip" attack on KMD, and still Thesp did not list us as scum, or comment, or anything like that. Also, Thesp dodges my other questions ("what do you think of Yos? and "what were your questions useful for?")

Then he disappears for another two days, makes some small comments on the game that he is not likely to follow up later, and started pushing the BnB wagon again.

I think my main problem with Thesp is that he seems to be interested in little else than getting BnB lynched. He is not commenting on the rest of the game. Not making questions/following up on them. And still, he posting enough to be seen as active and contributing - something that I feel that disappears when you look his posts too closely.

Finally, I think that Herotodus post about Thesp on 375 is quite relevant (although Hero is misreading Thesp). What I think Thesp actually means with that quote is that he suspects BnB for trying to exploit Elvis "Slip" case. Still, there is one big problem with this: 200 posts later, pushing the wagon every big post he makes, I would expect a town player to have more reasons to lynch his main suspect. Thesp does not really seem to be following the thread past a superficial level, which is quite scummy.

====

I will post a few more comments on other people in my next post (answering Yos questions about Elvis, etc). I'll post once again tomorrow before going V/LA.

[Claus]

Hey Yos!

Vote: Yos

- I would also be happy voting Thesp or Ekim. I would not mind a Xyl, E_K or SerialClergy wagon. I'll give details when BaB gets out of his ass and posts a scumlist.

You want to...like, explain any of that? Especally since Thesp, Xyl, and probably E_K are currently the 3 people who I think are very probably town here, that seems really bizzare.

I already explained why I think Thesp is scum.

During day 1 (and sometimes during early game), I usually like to classify players as "don't want to lynch/neutral/wouldn't mind a lynch/want to lynch" (or looking town/no idea/maybe scum/scummy). E_K and Xyl are in the "wouldn't mind a lynch" category.

I suspected E_K strongly a while ago, and while I think she defended herself reasonably well, I'm not completely convinced of her townhood. Yes, being aggressive is her meta, but she did misrepresent KMD. So for me she is still far from "very probably town", although I don't find her too scummy at the moment.

As for Xyl, he is all over the place (I list him as having voted/strongly attacked about 6 different people so far), without giving too many reasons. It is not a strong feeling, but I would understand a wagon on him, and wouldn't mind to see him under pressure. I find it funny that you put him as town. I would say at most neutral. What are your reasons?

So, why did you bunch up Thesp, E_K and Xyl, when it seems pretty clear that I had different level of suspicion for them?

You obviously aren't pushing very hard. I even forgot who you were voting. This is NOT consistent with your meta.

(eyebrow) It's not in my meta to vote for a lurker and leave my vote there for a while, occasionally mentioing that I'm specifically keeping my vote on them because they are lurking?

It is in your meta. Your scum meta. Specially when you don't really take your lurker vote seriously, and avoid discussing the game like you were doing earlier today. E.g. I think Town-Yos would be all over Ekim by now.

===

Out for now - if I forgot to answer any direct question, please remind me, cheers

[Claus]

Oh, I see!

Man, you already found what, 3, 4 scum? Please teach me your scumhunting techniques after the game

Just out of curiosity. Suppose I'm not scum, who would take my place in your list?

[Claus]

Elvis, what do you think of my cases? Am I too wildly wrong in any? Probably right in any?

[Claus]

Ok, I'm going on V/LA now. I'll be back on the 24th. Prolly without net in the meanwhile.

Sorry for the big post.

=====

@Xyl

Thanks for the comments. So, wanna form an Ekim wagon?

@E_K

-> So you don't mind that Ekim jumped without reasons/pushing on the Xyl and BB wagon?
-> About Thesp, yeah, it doesn't bother me when people give strong opinions without much reasoning (Rofl too). Thesp is a bit different, though, because he is basically giving his "I think he is scum" opinion in ONE person.

these are all people that are sort of hanging out in my neutral category

I see. You had Thesp and Yos as town before. Was it just my case, or something else made you see them as neutral?

Claus - what do you think of iamausername, herodotus, and zu faul?

Making a quick, isolated re-read on each:

IAUN: I can see where IAUN is scummy. His "Vote for rofl/vote for bab" thing is funny. I put him on the "wouldn't mind a lynch" list for now, in front of you and Xyl, but as far as funny votes go, I like the Ekim case more.

Needs to post more. Would like to hear

@IAUN

opinions on Yos, Inhim, Tajo

HERO: Some of his posts are weird (e.g. "Thesp is bussing BaB" and his post about "no good bandwagons" in RVS), but he is making questions, answering questions, and giving his opinion on the game. I put him on my "neutral/town" list.

ZU_FAUL: He seems pretty pro-town. I also find myself generally agreeing with his points. Unlike you said, he did re-evaluate you on 184, even saying that you were less likely to be scum because of your defense. Why do you suspect him?

BTW,

@Zu_faul

and

@Herotodus

: Agree/Disagree on each of my three cases? Would you vote any of them?




=================

@Yos

B&B is probably scum and, if he is, Xyl is 100% guarenteed to be town; KMD is fairly likely to be scum, and I think Elvis is probably town; and shabba still hasn't said anything relevent.

Ok, cool! What do you think of Ikem, Thesp and Roflcopter?

What the heck makes you think that either post 234 or post 240 were either "flippant" or "trying to brush you off"?

Well, when I ask you to comment on the big wagons you answer me with this:

I didn't comment on the Elvis/KMD stuff quite delibaratly, claus. Why do you think that's a scum move?

Isn't this dodging the question and brushing it off?

then the right action is to not comment on the bandwagon at all, especally on day 1.

I don't agree with this AT ALL. Pro-town players, if they don't have enough info about a major event going on in the game, should at least try to ask some questions to get the info they need. So if a blatantly bullshit wagon was going on in early game, on a player you still had no read on, and getting steam, would you, as a pro-town player, just let the wagon go on?

Letting a wagon you disagree with grow, without commenting on anything (without even talking to OTHER, non related players) for me is a scum action, motivated by letting a wagon grow without getting your hands dirty.

By any reasonable standards, I was both very active during that period, was questioning people

Well said Yos! Back up your claim by making a list of people you questioned between the start of the game and post 234. Then tell me you were reasonably "hunting scum" and "questioning people", and not "sitting on the background".

Claus, how many times have you seen me as town?

I have followed you as town on Adel's speed game Beta, on Alpha Centauri Mafia, and maybe a few others I read during Return to New Catania while trying to get a better meta read from you.

Yos, what do you think of my cases on Ekim and Thesp?

@ROFL

oh my technique is easy. step 1, find a scum. step 2, spot anyone who is overly hesitant to see them lynched, especially if they're slyly directing traffic away from their wagon

Well, that step 1, "find a scum", still eludes me from time to time. Mind you, I would say that I'm not "slyly" directing trafic - I'm quite strongly calling a part of the wagon scummy.

Anyway, would you comment on my cases? Suppose again that I'm town, is there anything I'm missing terribly in my accusations of Ekim, Yos and Thesp? Specially Ekim, he seems to fit "step 1" pretty easily.

=========

[Claus]

Leaving now. Changing my vote to the biggest looking intention pile from among my cases (mith didn't allow me to proxy my vote )

unvote. Vote Ekim

See you monday!