Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[GIEFF]

Yaw, can you edit the vote-count to say that it's 7 to lynch, so people realize Benmage is at L-2? Thanks.

[GIEFF]

I wouldn't of expected it from you.

Then who are these "sheep" you expect to lynch jammer, Sens, and Zach if you flip town?

[GIEFF]

I just told you I

wouldn't

do that, though. And I just have one vote, and have had lots of trouble getting people to follow me.

Your death, if you are town, will do absolutely nothing. So, if you are town, please play the game.

[GIEFF]

OK, Benmage. I tried to talk sense into you, but you just aren't having any. Here is why I think you are scum.

1. He cares about this game.
   Benmage obviously cares about this game - he spent a lot of time making those posts. Yet he is now pretending not to care, and to WANT to die. I don't think a town player would do this - this fits more with a scum player (who still cares) pretending not to care in order to look townie.
   
2. He lies
   . Benmage claimed that he took the focus off of me because of "this new surge in idiocy." Yet he took the focus off me BEFORE anybody else posted on Day 2, so this is obviously false.
   
3. His play is illogical
   . He claimed that the reason he voted for me yesterday was to stop me from distracting the Mastin-wagon. Yet the method he employed to bring focus back to the Mastin-wagon was to remove TWO VOTES from the wagon, and try to get another player lynched. Benmage's motives for voting me are obviously NOT what he claimed they were.
   
4. He is inconsistent in his suspicions
   . Benmage not only ignored me, but also removed his focus from camn, whom he also claimed to find scummy on D1.

Benmage - talk logically NOW. If you are town, then what you are doing now is trolling. Your lynch will definitely NOT help the town if you are a townie.

And Zach, there is no need at all for a quick-lynch.

[GIEFF]

As scum why did I pick VPB, our kill target?? Would I think it make me look more town?

Yes. Obviously. There is no reason at all to paste a long wall analyzing a dead townie, other than to scream "I DID NOT KNOW VP BALTAR WAS GOING TO BE NIGHT KILLED."

Would I also gamble iso'ing a fellow scum in jammer or SF...

Why are you assuming that Benmage-scum implies jammer-scum or Sensfan-scum?

[GIEFF]

12 hours into Day 2 with half the players yet to post is much different than 45 pages into Day 1, with another player rapidly approaching lynch.

[GIEFF]

Benmage:

To clarify my point #3:

You claimed that your vote to me was to show me that I was distracting from the Mastin wagon, but your behavior distracted from the Mastin-wagon just as much as my own did. Which makes me think that your stated reason was not your actual reason. Do you understand?

What "new surge of idiocy" were you referring to in Post 1126?




Here is what Benmage said, which assumed that Benmage-scum implied jammer- or Sens-scum:

Would I also gamble iso'ing a fellow scum in jammer or SF

I will ask again, Benmage: why are you assuming jammer or Sensfan is scum if you are? And why do you think that I should assume that? I'm curious to hear what jammer and Sens think of this, too.


I do not want to lynch you right now, Benmage, and I did not at the time I cast my vote. It is not in the town's interest for me to say any more.

[GIEFF]

12 hours into Day 2 with half the players yet to post is much different than 45 pages into Day 1, with another player rapidly approaching lynch.

Which begs the question of what happened to your suspicion of Alexhans?

If this was your question, why didn't you ask it? Why start by trying to call my behavior inconsistent, when the two situations are so clearly different?


Nothing happened to my suspicion of alexhans. I think he is likely scum.

[GIEFF]

Just less likely than Benmage?

No. I think alex is more likely scum than Benmage.

[GIEFF]

:roll:

Yet you are voting for Benmage and not Alex...

You are voting for "no one."

Do you think that "no one" is scummier than Benmage? Is there a point to all your questions?

[GIEFF]

Wonderful.

Do you also feel it obvious to of perhaps iso’d a fellow scum of mine to look town?

No, I don't.

Why did you ignore the plethora of opportunity to start discussion or analyze what I offered either in agreement of to illustrate my faults?
Why did you vote me, and yet ask others not to continue to pressure me? In addition why do you feel it necessary for your vote to remain while you say you don’t want to lynch me?

I wanted to see how alex would respond to a wagon on you, in light of your behavior toward me yesterday when I tried to lynch him. If I said "I want to see how alex reacts" (as you and Zach have forced me to do), then it doesn't do much good, now does it?

I also wanted to see how YOU would react to a bandwagon, and it was not well.


I still think your play today (and late yesterday) has been scummy, but my vote for you was not intended to carry through to lynch.


--------
Zach:


Yesterday, you were suspicious of me because you thought I was trying to de-rail the Mastin wagon. Now that Mastin is town, do you still think this?

Today, you tried to claim that my behavior was inconsistent between today and late Day 1. That is null, as I explained, and you immediately dropped it.


And now you think I am scummy because I am not voting for alex? Alex hasn't even posted yet. I still want to hear his thoughts on Mastin's alignment and on Benmage's behavior both yesterday and today. As I asked in Post 1128.


I would like to see your case, explaining why you think I am scum, and why I needed to die yesterday.

[GIEFF]

I think your reaction to your wagon was very scummy, Benmage.

I think your commentary relies too much on trying to find buddies. I don't find anything you said all that incriminating or scummy.

Also, your logic saying that VP and alex/jammer have to be opposite alignments is faulty. Townies are mutually suspicious of each other all the time. This sort of argument works better when one of the people is scum.

[GIEFF]

Gieff you basically said it yourself, your vote isn't even on your top suspect.

Now you're trying to pass it off as some kind of elaborate play. Let Alexhans react to pressure if you really think he's scum. What was the problem with the direct approach?

It's not all that elaborate. We don't have any power roles this game, so I'm trying to create situations in which I see how people react. Getting as much info as possible.

I DO think Benmage is scummy though, and saw the opportunity to put some pressure on him, to see how he would react. (Again, to gather more information). Wouldn't you agree that we gained a lot of information from Benmage's reaction to his wagon?


Still waiting on your case.

[GIEFF]

You are right, alex - I read a game with you and camn in it (with you as town), and you made buddying-type statements towards her then, too. But not nearly as many as you did in this game.


I said I would

not

vote those three people, alex. Read more carefully.

-----

I urge people to read camn's day 2 posts in iso. Note how she tries to egg on the BenMage wagon (in a nitpicky fashion) without adding her own vote.

[GIEFF]

I do not want to lynch you right now, Benmage, and I did not at the time I cast my vote. It is not in the town's interest for me to say any more.

Lmao. I'll call that bluff.

Vote: Gieff

Until such a time as you explain what you meant by this.

BM

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 33#1786733

[GIEFF]

Serious question-why criticise Zach for rushing a lynch, when our good buddy Gieff was as guilty of this, if not more?

That is simply not true. Read my iso, and read Zach's. Zach says we should quick-lynch Benmage, and I say we shouldn't.

[GIEFF]

Had Benmage reached L-1, I would have unvoted. I was being quite cautious.

Zach and I were BOTH voting for Benmage. Zach suggested quicklynch, and I said no. Isn't it a little silly to pressure ME over the quicklynch, rather than Zach?



Still waiting on that case, Zach.

[GIEFF]

I made very clear points about your vote not being where your suspicions are.

Stop acting like I don't have any reasoning.

But I AM suspicious of Benmage. His reaction to the wagon on him was ridiculous. He has been inconsistent and untruthful.


Please, present some reasoning, zach. You said I needed to die YESTERDAY. So obviously you have a lot more reasoning to present, right?

[GIEFF]

??? THe idiocy surge came after your posts...

What my iso’s?

No. You removed me from your lynch-list. This happened before anybody else had the chance for any idiocy. You were NOT referring to Sensfans' posts yesterday when you said "idiocy." You were referring to the wagon on you, which happened AFTER you removed me from your lynch-list.

So - if I was second on your lynch-list yesterday, and the person who was in first is now dead, why am I completely off of it now?

[GIEFF]

Still waiting, Zach.

[GIEFF]

Alex, I changed my mind about Benmage once he actually started being reasonable.

This is BS. You claim to have voted for Benmage because no townie has that much content at the start of a day. This has nothing to do with Benmage's subsequent irrational behavior, the cessation of which should NOT have caused you to unvote, if you were being genuine.

Do you constantly feel the need to post the same thing 3 times?

I already said I made points, but you've apparently ignored that.

Not to mention the fact that you're being unrealistic about the speed and time limits you're expecting on me to adhere to even if I hadn't made any points on you already.

I don't want to give you the time to just make crap up. You said I should have been lynched yesterday, so I assume you have some good reasoning for that. Just a few brief points will be fine.

I've read you in iso, and you have nothing so far but the fact that I am voting for Benmage even though I think alex is likelier to be scum.

[GIEFF]

I think your vote was opportunistic. This whole block of text here supports my thought that your vote was opportunistic.

What whole block of text?

Fine, I will humor you - you think my Benmage-vote was opportunistic. Opportunistic enough to vote me.


But if this is true, then what about jammer's vote for Benmage? His vote was more opportunistic (as it came later, it was OMGUS, and he said NOTHING when you were pushing the quicklynch. Why focus on me instead of jammer?

[GIEFF]

It isn't an attempt to deflect. It's an attempt to show that the only reason you can fabricate to explain your vote for me applies to jammer even more so than it does to me.

Your very first post in this game was a vote for me, because I attacked jammer. And now you vote me for doing something, and ignore the very same behavior in jammer. You are not being rational.

[GIEFF]

How do you think we should deal with the lurkers Gieff?

I think you should claim that any scumhunting I do is scummy and distracting from their lynch, and if they flip town, ignore this alignment, and go right on calling me scum.

[GIEFF]

But seriously, I think we should bandwagon one of them. I would prefer blackcatcontract, as that "character" has had TWO posters lurk with it. And because Cephrir lurks a lot as town.

[GIEFF]

We both agreed to lynch Mastin.

[GIEFF]

I'm not gonna lie, I'll probably be on you for as long as I am alive in this game, unless something happens at a critical moment in the game that convinces me that you are town.

Still waiting for those reasons, Zach. If it's just gut, then say "just gut." I don't know what you mean about the "pretty big thing about the argument Mastin is town."

You were on me from the first post of the game. My thoughts from yesterday was that you were so sure Mastin was scum that you assumed that MY actions were as his scum-buddy. So I am confused that you are still pursuing my lynch today. Really, honestly, try to give me the reasons you think I'm scummy.

The last time someone tunneled me all game and refused to provide any reasoning, he turned out to be scum.

[GIEFF]

Gieff - If you wanna cite some games where he lurked as vanilla town, go for it.

From Post 326:


Mafia 82. He lurked quite severely, but not as bad as this game.

Consulmaker. You were in this game, Battle Mage. But the lurking, while bad, wasn't as bad as it is in this game.

Mafia 69. This game he wasn't as lurky, but I don't think he was a vanilla. His chars/day average just looks so low because he had one posts 3 months after he left the game - he was actually fairly active.


So he DOES lurk as town, but not as much as he has in this game. I no longer think that Cephrir's town-lurking meta is enough to excuse this level of inactivity. But I would still prefer a bcc/Kai lynch, as BOTH of them lurked, which makes the behavior more likely due to alignment than due to the poster.

[GIEFF]

I've already stated much earlier in the game that I think Jammer is town. Nice attempt to deflect though.

Let me get this straight:

You have already decided I am scum. You have already decided jammer is town.

The only reason you have given for thinking I am scum ALSO applies to jammer. Yet you refuse to re-visit your initial assumption (from page 3!) that jammer is town.

I'd think a townie would keep a more open mind about potential scum. Not completely ignore behavior you claim to find scummy just because of something that happened on page 3.

[GIEFF]

You have already decided I am scum..

I won’t lie I get overall scum vibes just from your game in its entirety...maybe it’s just your style, but that’s might gut read.

This was directed at Zach, not at you, Benmage.

But while we're on the subject: you put almost no pressure my way yesterday up until I said it seemed like you, camn, and Zach were very against an alex lynch. And then you exploded.


-------


camn - why did you hammer Mastin?

[GIEFF]

I exploded because you overtly embellished and clearly misrepresented (at the very least myself) in trying to prove your point, and also pointlessly derailed the wagon.

I did no such thing. I noticed that the only people who had not suggested alex as a potential day 1 lynch were you, Zach, and camn, ALL of whom were actively questioning my attempt to lynch alex. So I said it seemed as if the three of you were very against his lynch, and actively trying to stop the 8 people who had listed alex as a potential lynch from considering it. It seemed that way now, and it still seems that way.


And Zach, yesterday you said:

I think in order to make any kind of sense of Alexhans, we really need to see Mastin's flip, and Alexhans' reaction to it.

A piece of information Gieff seems to REALLY not want us to have.

Did alex's reaction to Mastin's flip give you a better sense of alex's alignment?

---------

You're so full of it BM... Your whole move to clear yourself from Mastin's lynch is really clear... You "suspected" him and waggoned him but when it was certain he was getting lynched you came out to say he was town??? come on...

I agree this is scummy. Battle Mage switched VERY quickly from voting Mastin to calling him "almost certainly town."

[GIEFF]

I am tired of the word "misrep." I think the three of you were against an alex lynch. My opinion may be wrong, but if so, that is NOT a misrep - it is a mistake.

[GIEFF]

Benmage - you asked me to point out where you have been untruthful. Here it is - the "idiocy" issue:

My interest in Gieff has subsided only because of the new surge of idiocy.

Benmage claimed that he took the focus off of me because of "this new surge in idiocy." Yet he took the focus off me BEFORE anybody else posted on Day 2, so this is obviously false.

When I mentioned the surge of idiocy I thought I was answering something in response to my new lynch preference which didn’t have you listed. Hence making people via the idiocy seem scummier than you.

Here, you claim that "people" (plural) were idiotic on day 1, and therefore all of them surpassed me in scumminess.

But then you later tried to claim:

Yes the new list comprised those who were in opposition to VPB. Because I strongly feel that jammer or alex could be scum and that VPB’s iso and my readings were quite telling. SF play was in their because of his idiocy(which I felt at the time even if I hadn’t said the word “idiocy” yet). That part on SF should be evident when I quoted his vote on me and my following reaction.

Now the idiocy just refers to Sensfan?

You do NOT call Sensfan an idiot (or alex or jammer). But you DO call everyone on your wagon "r-tards" and "morons" and "sheep."

It is obvious that when you said "idiocy" you were referring to the wagon on you - not on any behavior that occurred yesterday.

Anybody who doubts this, please iso-read Benmage from his 140 through 144.

You got caught trying to justify removing me from your lynch-list with something that occurred AFTER you did so, but instead of admitting a mistake, you lied again to try to cover it up. I don't know why a townie would do this.

[GIEFF]

I would take Battle Mage at his word about his meta on blackcatcontract, but BCC is not in any other active games besides this one, so I don't see why BM can't tell us what meta-reason he has for not suspecting him. Care to explain, BM?

Zach, did you unvote me because you are less convinced I am scum, or did you unvote me because you would just rather lynch bcc? Either way, you right now (or very recently) are not voting for the player you think is most likely to be scum. So don't you think you need a better reason to call me scum?

Also, what do you think about Benmage's "idiocy" lie?

[GIEFF]

1. Somebody asked Benmage why I was no longer on his lynch list.
2. Benmage said it was because of all "the new idiocy."
3. It is very clear, based on context, that Benmage was referring to the wagon on him.
4. The wagon on him happened AFTER he removed me from his lynch list, so this could not possibly have caused him to remove me.
5. Instead of correcting this mistake, he continued to lie, claiming that the "idiocy" was really the iso-posts he'd quoted from day 1.

[GIEFF]

3. Lol? I know I wasn’t referring to anyone being idiots yesterday. I was referring to my lynch wagon…duh? Ty…the point of this?

OK, so you do admit, FINALLY, after your third explanation (the first two of which were lies), that the "idiocy" was referring to the wagon. Which was obvious from the start. You can hide it in a mega post and pretend not to understand the point, but you lied all the same, and obviously so.


Post 1109 was your lynch-list - you put in jammer, Sensfan, and alex. At that time, the only person of the three voting for you was Sensfan. What does idiocy have to do with putting jammer and alex above me on your lynch-list? NOTHING.


This isn't semantics at all - it's a blatant lie. Idiocy has NOTING to do with why you put me down your scum-list, yet you claimed that it was the ONLY reason.

Could it be that I was on your scumlist yesterday because you were only pretending to find me scummy in order to either force a Mastin-town lynch or to chainsaw-defend alex-scum? And that you forgot that you were supposed to be consistent from one day to the next, and so left me off the list today?

[GIEFF]

Gieff you have clearly lied in post 1169 point 2 where you said I took the focus off “BEFORE” anyone posted D2. You sir are a liar. Do you deny this?

No, you caught me lying. You're right. You were focused on me like a LASER coming out of the gate on day 2. You mentioned me over and over, and kept up the pressure, hardly even mentioning other players in your razor-sharp analysis.

3. Lol? I know I wasn’t referring to anyone being idiots yesterday. I was referring to my lynch wagon…duh? Ty…the point of this?

OK, so you do admit, FINALLY, after your third explanation (the first two of which were lies), that the "idiocy" was referring to the wagon. Which was obvious from the start. You can hide it in a mega post and pretend not to understand the point, but you lied all the same, and obviously so.

Where DID I deny this? Point it out. Continue to spew your false statements. I broke it down chronologically, no one will believe your lies any more.

I already have pointed it out. I will do so again.


1st explanation:

When I mentioned the surge of idiocy I thought I was answering something in response to my new lynch preference which didn’t have you listed. Hence making people via the idiocy seem scummier than you.

2nd explanation:

Yes the new list comprised those who were in opposition to VPB. Because I strongly feel that jammer or alex could be scum and that VPB’s iso and my readings were quite telling. SF play was in their because of his idiocy(which I felt at the time even if I hadn’t said the word “idiocy” yet). That part on SF should be evident when I quoted his vote on me and my following reaction.

3rd (and correct) explanation:

3. Lol? I know I wasn’t referring to anyone being idiots yesterday. I was referring to my lynch wagon…duh? Ty…the point of this?

You know the drill, Benmage. I want to see reasons for voting me. And "sidetracking" doesn't count - what exactly do you think I'm sidetracking from? And I have not lied, as you so clearly have. If you think lying is a scumtell, move your vote right on back to yourself.

[GIEFF]

I think there is a large misconception that my attack on Gieff at the end of D1 was anything too substantial. It was done largely out of anger and frustration. Frustration at him derailing the mastin wagon on an issue of votes which could be argued for several players(illustrated in peoples willingness to vote him)…Anger through his inflated commentary and arguments.

But your vote now seems completely logical and devoid of anger. You're growing, Benmage. It is a beautiful thing to witness. Like a butterfly emerging from its chrysalis of knee-jerk OMGUS and irrational insults.

[GIEFF]

A review of Benmage's play today:

1. OMG I AM ALIVE
2. Iso posts.
3. Says Jammer's iso is the scummiest (but doesn't vote him)
4. OMGUS-vote of Sens
5. Complete freakout at the fourth vote on him.
6. Self votes
7. Insults everybody voting for him
8. Apparently knew the town was going to act like idiots at the start of Day 2, and that this would cause him to lose interest in me.
9. Self-votes.
10. Calls Zach r-tard scum.
11. Calls me a townie sheep.
13. Says he is too flustered to discuss my play rationally.
14. Says his attack on me on Day 1 was not substantial, and mostly done out of anger and frustration.
15. Calls me a wolf in sheep's clothing, because I say the right things.
16. Votes Cephrir
17. Flips out and votes me.


So, to review:

• Jammer's iso was the scummiest, but he doesn't vote him, instead choosing to OMGUS-vote Sensfan.
  
  
• He claims his attention on me yesterday was not all that substantial, mostly based on anger. Yet he also claims that he still finds me scummy, but I was just surpassed by alex, sens, and jammer.
  
  
• He calls me a townie sheep, but then votes me.
  
  
• He calls zach a retard scum, but never votes him.
  
  
• Although jammer is still voting for him, and although he claimed jammer's iso was the scummiest, he has OMGUS-voted BOTH of the other two players still voting for him.

This is, without a doubt, the most inconsistent 24 hours of mafia I have ever seen.

^^^OMG more consistency, damn I am better at this game than I thought.

And with this attitude, you will not improve.

[GIEFF]

KMD is wrongly consistent, but that's better than wrongly inconsistent.

[GIEFF]

See. You are inconsistent in your own post. How can anyone take what you say to be truthful?

Sarcasm, Benmage. Sarcasm.

I have not lied.

[GIEFF]

Than try to answer the statement. Truthfully, you can't. Post 1169 you say I claimed to remove you from the list before anyone posted. This is obviously a lie as the lynch preference is well into the day.

You are wrong. I did not say that in Post 1169.

He lies. Benmage claimed that he took the focus off of me because of "this new surge in idiocy." Yet he took the focus off me BEFORE anybody else posted on Day 2, so this is obviously false.

I said you took the focus off me before anyone posted, which is absolutely correct. You ended the day saying I was your top lynch candidated after Mastin, and then came straight out of the gate whiz-bang on Day 2 completely ignoring me. That's a bit odd.

You later even claimed that you didn't find me all that scummy yesterday, and it was mostly a vote in anger. This explanation I could have believed, but now you are claiming that you found me scummy all along?


I think you might really believe that you were consistent with your idiocy speech. Re-reading your second quote, I see that you really could have been talking about Sensfan's vote for you. Is English your first language?


---

I pull nothing out of context, Benmage. I write long posts, and try to make them as brief as possible by only pulling what is necessary for my point. What possible additional context should I have included in that statement? How is that misrepresenting you?

[GIEFF]

unvote

vote blackcatcontract

I still think camn is the scummiest player in the game. If anybody feels like starting that wagon up, I'll be right there to help you push it. But for now, I sense Benmage is just way too emotional. I did a meta-investigation of him and saw him over-reacting to pressure in a similar fashion when he was town.

------

Benmage, that is NOT a misrepresentation. You are crying wolf by using that word so inappropriately over and over again. I am not claiming that your statement applies to the points I raised. I am simply telling you that your perception of yourself is wrong - you have acted irrational and inconsistent today.

------
KMD, I am just saying that you have been very consistent in your suspicion of me, unlike Benmage, who has been all over the place. But you both are wrong.

[GIEFF]

I still think alex is scummy, and I still think camn is scummier, as I did at the end of day 1.

It's time for lurker-lynches and lurker-pressure, though. They both claim they are still in this game, yet neither has contributed anything in forever.

[GIEFF]

Why the Cephrir wagon over the bcc wagon? bcc and Kai BOTH lurked.

Battle Mage, why can't you share your meta read of bcc? He is in no other games on-site.

[GIEFF]

I'm not saying any more on BCC. As far as i'm concerned, you can trust me, or not trust me. But, if you dont trust me, i'd rather you explained why:

I'm not saying why I don't trust you. As far as I'm concerned, you can trust my judgment, or not trust it. But if you don't trust it, etc. etc.

Is it a Kai-read or a bcc-read that makes you sure that character is town?

[GIEFF]

Camn - I've heard rumors that you support lurker-lynches. Do you prefer lynching Cephrir or bcc?

[GIEFF]

jammer: Why did you unvote Benmage?

Is it just a coincidence you did so soon after I did?

[GIEFF]

But, i said it with Mastin, and i was right. I dont see why i shouldnt be right here.

If you will recall, the only reason you started saying Mastin was town was because you thought alex was scum.

The fact that you defended BCC over Cephir makes me confident about not voting Cephir.

You are basing this on the assumption that i am scum. If you believe that to be the case, why lynch a lurker anyway?

So if your suspicions were right, why lynch a lurker instead of alexhans?

[GIEFF]

If you've bothered to look at any of Gieff's links btw, you'll see that they do NOT support his original claim. He hasnt even attempted to refute this, because it's a damn FACT.

My original claim was that he contributes less as town than as scum (in terms of characters / day).

In any case, we have established that Cephrir DOES lurk as town, although never to this degree. But he hasn't ever lurked as scum to this degree, either.

I will look into bcc and Kai's metas when I have a chance, but the fact that TWO players have lurked with the same character seems telling.

[GIEFF]

So if your suspicions were right, why lynch a lurker instead of alexhans?

Eh? I dont get you.

BM

You voted Mastin.
You quickly turned around and called Mastin town, because you thought alex was scum, which implied Mastin-town.
Mastin is town.
So why aren't you voting alex?

Or was there other factors that led you to believe Mastin was town?

[GIEFF]

Yes, I understand that, BM. But you were so confident in Mastin-town for this reason alone, that when your suspicions were confirmed, I'd think you would have gone straight to alex.

There was no other reason for thinking Mastin was town?

[GIEFF]

Actually, Zach's example looks good. That's about the level of participation we normally see from Cephrir-town, although there was a bit of inactivity mingled in the middle.

Cephrir was scum in that game.

[GIEFF]

Taking the assumption Alex is scum (which is the assumption i am making if i want him lynched), Mastin is almost certainly town. Of course, if Alex turns out to be town, this condition is no longer met, and Mastin can be looked at again.

But you're right, BM, you later said that you didn't think his lurking was scummy, and saw him taking pressure for it in other games.

[GIEFF]

This is simple.

Cephrir's play does not fit her play as town or as scum. She has NEVER lurked this much before. In past games, she contributes less as town than as scum, so I'm inclined to think that NO participation is more a town-tell than a scum-tell, although not strong either way.

But blackcatcontract, on the other hand, hasn't posted in this thread (or on site) for 10 days. The fact that he responded to Yaw means that he IS coming back to the site, but without posting anywhere. I don't know why a townie would do this. If there aren't other games bringing bcc back, it has to be this one, and if it's THIS game bringing him back to the site, why hasn't he posted in it for the last 10 days?

[GIEFF]

Battle Mage - it really looked like you were saying Ceph was town. Zach wasn't and hasn't been riding my coattails at all.

You said Zach's example looks good, as if it reinforced your point. You said that level of activity (i.e. high) is about the level of participation we normally see from Cephrir-town. Do you see why it looks like you were assuming Cephrir was town?

Can you explain what you meant by your quote, and why we should have known you were assuming Cephrir-scum?

[GIEFF]

bcc is in ZERO other games, AFAIK.

What alignment was Cephrir in Freelancer?

[GIEFF]

I did ask, BM, and I'm not being condescending. I don't see this insurmountable evidence you're talking about, and I don't see why you are ignoring the fact that bcc came back to the site to respond to Yaw, but not for ANY OTHER PURPOSE, as he's in no other games. Or the fact that his predecessor also lurked and replaced out.

Does anybody know if he has an alt?



I will look into Zach and his trust of me about you, Battle Mage. He's claimed to find me scummy all game, so if he takes what I say about you at face value, that seems a bit odd.

[GIEFF]

Battle Mage, I skimmed all of Zach's iso, and don't see him riding my coattails at all or trusting my judgment of you 100%. What were you referring to?

[GIEFF]

*facepalm*

Post 1398. Keeps up guys! :P

BM

....


You asked if he was going to ride my coattails "all game," which implies a pattern of behavior, so I looked to find this pattern, and it didn't exist.

As I asked before, don't you see why your post made it look like you assumed Cephrir was scum? I thought you just made an honest mistake. Re-read it from an outsider's perspective.

[GIEFF]

Lurker-lynch today, guys. Lurker-lynch.

[GIEFF]

Zach, what the hell. Why does it matter what BM thought of alex in his second post of the game?

[GIEFF]

There's that misrep word again. The irony is that you saying I misrep is actually a misrep, but that's neither here nor there. Your word against mine, and all that.

You strike me as still upset that I attacked you on page 2. Please, get over it. It was page 2, and there was nothing else to go on.

Which do you think is better, jammer - cases you think are weak, or no cases at all?

[GIEFF]

jammer: Why did you unvote Benmage?

1) Benmage Wagon broke down.

Were you hoping to lynch Benmage with your vote for him? Is his scumminess dependent on the number of players voting for him? What do you think about Benmage now?

[GIEFF]

Three people are not voting right now.

Two of them aren't playing, and one is camn.

[GIEFF]

I have been perfectly clear about why I prefer a bcc lynch, and Battle Mage just saying "trust me, bcc is town, it's meta" won't cut it for me. If it's a 50/50 shot, and just one is scum, then his buddies will obviously try to steer us wrong. Yesterday I was pressured into voting Mastin over alex ("HE IS DIVERTING FROM A MASTIN LYNCH!"), and today I will NOT let myself be pressured into hammering Cephrir over bcc.

Cephrir is at L-2. Can those on the Cephrir wagon please explain why they prefer a Cephrir lynch to a bcc lynch?

[GIEFF]

Agreed. So why are you voting Cephrir?

[GIEFF]

I DID look into why i felt BCC was likely to be town, and it stands, but isnt a meta i can reference. The same was true with Mastin, and you ignored me there. Maybe you can give me the benefit of the doubt this time?

Battle Mage cannot explain why he can't reveal this meta. The reason BM couldn't reveal his meta on Mastin was the fact that it was an ongoing game. bcc is in NO ongoing games right now, so I don't see why he can't reference the meta.



Battle Mage would also rather people vote for HIM than for bcc.

Buddy, it's like this. If you don't trust my judgement on BCC, you're better off lynching me, right now. I'm not happy with you continually blowing smoke in my direction, but being too damn wimpy to actually substantiate it.

And btw, if you believe im scum, your vote should be on me. Because, as scum, why would i really put myself out so much to try and save a lurkerbuddy, who will probably end up modkilled anyway?

Why would a townie prefer somebody vote for himself rather than a mega-lurker non-contributor? Throwing yourself under a wagon's wheels is a rather extreme way to try to stop it, and I'm not sure bcc's 4 posts in this game should be enough for BM to have such a solid read..

I'm not wagonning BCC until we've exhausted the Cephrir avenue. How's that for direction?

But then...

I'm not interested in Camn atm. Cephrir first, then if we dont lynch him, we go back to people like Jammer and Zach. Sound good?

So, you pretended to be OK with a BCC lynch, but just not until we "exhausted" the Cephrir wagon. But then, soon after, you ignored BCC completely, and said you'd return to Jammer and Zach.


BM, I feel a lot more comfortable with bcc, unless you can assuage my doubts, as outlined above.

[GIEFF]

You where poking BM with a argument you just stole from GIEFF.

You are poking Zach with an argument you just stole from BM.


And actually, ZACH said it before I did.

Post 1310:

I'm willing to switch to Cephrir if necessary, but I will note I don't like Battlemage's selectiveness here.

Post 1379:

You're the one who's unable to explain why you have no interest in lynching BCC, and make no mistake about it, if a BCC lynch pops scum, you are next on my lynch list.

[GIEFF]

Why is there such a massive point raisen with lynching one lurker over the other?

Why

don't

you care which lurker is lynched? We lynched a lurker yesterday, and he was town.

[GIEFF]

camn, do you think that was a hammer?

[GIEFF]

I thought VP Baltar was solidly townie. Nobody voted for him yesterday, or gave him any pressure. Why the confusion?

PS.. I never would have wasted a kill on VP if I were scum.
Put that WIFOM in your pipe and smoke it.

I don't remember anybody accusing you of killing VP. Why the unnecessary defense?

[GIEFF]

Of course I think you're scum. I don't see why you are so concerned about being lynched with no votes and no pressure that you come out of the blue and say "I didn't kill Baltar."

They are not un-necessary at all. Time and time again, you've shown that you are far more concerned with looking townie or with staying alive than with helping the town find scum. Just one more action of yours that fits that pattern.


It's not day one anymore, by the way.

[GIEFF]

Thanks for the prods, Yaw - could you let us know in thread if/when they respond? I appreciate your work, and sorry we're making it hard on you.

[GIEFF]

Let's hope you're 2/2 on the quicklynch, Sens....


How confident are you that Cephrir is scum?

[GIEFF]

The hell? I'm really sorry, camn. I feel horrible - sorry if I ruined this game for you. Thanks, maffies. And thanks townies for not believing me.

Humbly yours,

GIEFF

Vote Sensfan

[GIEFF]

Based on past experience, it may be a good idea to consider L-2 as L-1 in this game. Sens-scum may try to use his "I WILL QUICKHAMMER ANYBODY" meta to get away with a scum-hammer, or a misguided town-hammer.

If I think someone is Scum

, and they are at L-1, absolutely I will hammer. I expect the same of everyone else in this game.

How confident are you that Cephrir is scum?

It's a random lynch, as far as I'm concerned.

[GIEFF]

I did a similar wagaon-analyis, Zach -

On both wagons: DDP (he was first on both wagons), Benmage, SpyreX, Zach, and camn

On neither wagon: bcc, alex, Battle Mage

On Mastin only: GIEFF, Kmd

On Cephrir only: jammer, Sensfan




it is REALLY damn lame that TWO townies lurked so horribly that they both got policy-lynched. I'm pissed as shit about it, and will never play a game with these two idiots again. It shows a lack of respect, and 60 fucking pages might as well be wasted because they couldn't be bothered post ONCE in a week. Ridiculous. Screw you both.

[GIEFF]

Very strange.



You are town, town, town, Zach. As is jammer, and Benmage is approaching it. But I am seriously lost with camn being town - her scumminess was so clear to me I was reading the whole game through that prism.


I hate analyzing nk's, but can anybody think of any reason they would kill camn? She wasn't helping us scumhunt, a few people thought she was scum besides me, and I for sure would have kept tunneling on her today. It doesn't make any sense.


YOUR THOUGHTS, SENSFAN AND BATTLEMAGE?

[GIEFF]

KMD -

Why did you think camn was town? She did not play to her town meta in this game.

[GIEFF]

No.

You voted me for no reason whatsoever, and then immediately took the opposite position I did.



When camn is town, she scumhunts, and is agressive. She showed none of that in this game. Which parts of her town meta did you think she played to?

[GIEFF]

I get the sense that camn is just a small town girl, livin' in a lonely world, and would be prone to taking a midnight train going anywhere. Do you really think this fits her town meta?

[GIEFF]

Yes, I don't see how a lurker-lynch could possibly go wrong, guys. It's been an excellent strategy so far.

[GIEFF]

But who cares which lurker we lynch, right? Best to just trust Battle Mage's magical meta-read he can't tell any of us about.

[GIEFF]

Well, I was born in a fail town
And I live in a fail town
Prob'ly die in a fail town
Oh, those small communities

[GIEFF]

Humorous that you attack me for the Quicklynch, when i...wasnt even on the wagon. -.-

Ridiculous, Battle Mage. YOU are the main reason we lynched Cephrir over bcc. Not being on the wagon just makes you look scummier.

I'm perplexed by Gieff's continued existence in this game. If he's town, it should probably tell him something about his performance thus far...

Gieff's play yesterday was far from stellar, and tbh, i'll be surprised if he isnt NKed tonight.

I don't get it. If my play has been poor, why would I get NK'd? Looks like you're trying to use a NK IN ADVANCE to make me look scummy.

1437 shows Gieff shouldnt have had a massive aversion to a Cephrir lynch. Ah, i think im hitting my head against a brick wall. Gieff's mentality is pretty darn protown.

I did NOT have a massive aversion to a Cephrir-lynch. What I had a massive aversion to was people just blindly charging ahead and lynching one of two lurkers without thinking about it, just because YOU claimed to have some rock-solid meta read on bcc that you couldn't tell us about.

Why weren't you on the Cephrir wagon, Battle Mage? You worked for pages and pages and pages to get him lynched, but did NOT end up on the wagon, and are already trying to use that fact to make yourself look townie.


You say the camn kill likely implicated me, and that if I am NOT killed tomorrow, that also implicates me. But you squirm your way out of a commitment by then claming that I play pro-town. Trying to pull a Cephrir? Throw some NK-WIFOM crap my way, wait for people to come charging after you to "make you happy" and then claim you had nothing to do with my mislynch tomorrow?

[GIEFF]

You are not responsible for the speed of the wagon, but you are responsible for the wagon itself.

What do you mean by the phrase "NK IN ADVANCE"?

You are saying that if I am not night-killed tonight (which I will not be), then I am scummy tomorrow. Controlling the NK-speculation before you even make the kill.

It seems really odd that Camn was killed too-when if you were town, you'd have continued to exert most of your energy on him. The fact nobody has pointed this out makes it more valid imo. Your acknowledged this yourself.

Well, one possible motive for killing camn could be to try to make me look scummy - can you think of anybody who has done that so far today?

What makes me know my play has been poor is not the fact that I am still alive, but camn's alignment.



Why weren't you on the Cephrir lynch?

[GIEFF]

I made a big fuss because it matters who we lynch.

My meta did NOT prove Cephrir scum - you keep claiming this, but I don't agree.

Do you not think it's odd that you are still alive, and Camn is dead?

I am not at all surprised to be alive, but I am surprised camn is dead. I think the kill implicates whoever tries to use it to their benefit.

[GIEFF]

Newly-humbled GIEFF is going to take a backseat now to try to avoid way too many pages of text or steering the town in the wrong direction.

[GIEFF]

No way. There was severe opposition to a camn lynch, and almost every player in the game has voted for me at one point or another.

I do not consider myself the most threatening player in the game. I think the reason I was not killed is that so many people find me scummy.

[GIEFF]

Lmao. I call BS. I don't think any scumbag seriously expected they'd be able to push a mislynch on you.

I appreciate your confidence that I am town.

I think KMD is scummy.

[GIEFF]

Yes alex, that is what I meant by BM "pulling a Cephrir." Ensuring a lynch goes through, but staying off the wagon to try to avoid suspicion.

[GIEFF]

Yes alex, that is what I meant by BM "pulling a Cephrir." Ensuring a lynch goes through, but staying off the wagon to try to avoid suspicion.

That's ridiculous. It can only really apply to someone who never votes for the person-not someone who starts and pushes it. :P

It's so stupid, i don't believe for a second that you yourself give it ANY credence. :P

BM

It is not stupid at all. You used your absence from the Cephrir-wagon to defend yourself:

Humorous that you attack me for the Quicklynch, when i...wasnt even on the wagon. -.-

[GIEFF]

Stop with the large quotes, please. I agree activity is pro-town, but you and alex quote-war-walling goes beyond that, and gives those who are NOT active a better excuse for their anti-town behavior.

[GIEFF]

Because you used your absence from a Cephrir-lynch as a defense.

[GIEFF]

At jammer's request:

camn

Vote: VP BALTHAR (Post 6)
unvote Vote :GIEFF (Post 65)
UNVOTE (Post 146)
Vote : Gieff (Post 150)
UNVOTE vote: Benmage (Post 305)
UNVOTE (Post 438)
VOTE: MASTIN (Post 454)
UNvote Vote Camn (Post 645)
MORE CAMN VOTES PLEASE!!!!!! (Post 682)
UNVOTE VOTE: MASTIN (Post 868)
UNVOTE VOTE GIEFF (Post 962)
VOTE CEPHIR (Post 1472)

Mastin

Mastin Votes: Mastin (Post 7)
Mastin Unvotes: Mastin, Mastin Votes: Battle Mage (Post 11)

blackcatcontract

vote: alexhans (Post 8)
vote: jammer (Post 23)

Debonair Danny DiPietro

Vote: Kairyuu (Post 10)
Unvote; Vote: Cephrir (Post 60)
Unvote; Vote: Mastin (Post 249)
Vote: Cephrir (Post 1308)

alexhans

Vote broomhead (Post 13)
FoS Benmage (Post 95)
Vote SensFan (Post 278)
For all of you who don't like wall posts... Imagine this as several posts for several people.... You can JUST SKIM those who are not directed at you if you are so annoyed with my posting style. (Post 685)
Unvote, Vote Battle Mage (Post 875)
Vote BCC (Post 1361)
FoS: SensFanVote Battle Mage (Post 1485)

SpyreX

Unvote, Vote: Zachrules (Post 231)
Unvote, vote: Cephrir (Post 538)
Unvote, Vote Debonair Danny DiPietro (Post 651)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 739)
Unvote, Vote Camn (Post 793)
Unvote (Post 903)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 906)
Unvote (Post 923)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 1069)
Vote: Cephrir (Post 1452)

jammer

Vote: SensFan (Post 22)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 57)
Unvote: GIEFF Vote: Cephrir (Post 205)
Unvote: Cephrir Vote: GIEFF (Post 426)
Mod: Prod Mastin. Unvote: Gieff Vote: Mastin (Post 711)
Unvote (Post 751)
Vote: Spyrex (Post 807)
Unvote: SpyreX (Post 993)
Vote: Benmage (Post 1115)
Unvote: Benmage Vote: BCC (Post 1349)
Unvote: BCC Vote: Cephrir (Post 1357)
Vote: blackcatcontract (Post 1499)

GIEFF

Vote: jammer (Post 31)
unvote jammer (Post 56)
Vote Mastin (Post 70)
FOS alexhans (Post 128)
FoS camn (Post 339)
UnvoteVote: Battle Mage (Post 362)
unvotevote camnHOS BattleMage (Post 411)
confirm vote: camn (Post 676)
UnvoteVote mastin (Post 726)
unvotevote spyrex (Post 794)
unvotevote mastin (Post 871)
Unvote Mastin (Post 877)
Vote alex (Post 883)
unvoteVote Mastin (Post 1071)
Vote Benmage (Post 1112)
unvotevote blackcatcontract (Post 1339)
Vote Sensfan (Post 1487)

Cephrir

Zachrulez

Vote: Gieff (Post 46)
Unvote:Vote: Mastin (Post 63)
FOS: Alexhans (Post 298)
Unvote: Vote: Gieff (Post 1024)
Unvote: Vote: Mastin (Post 1062)
Vote: Benmage (Post 1104)
Vote: Gieff (Post 1202)
Unvote: Vote: blackcatcontract (Post 1311)
Unvote Vote: Cephrir (Post 1453)

SensFan

Vote" jammer (Post 47)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 209)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 270)
Unvote, Vote: GIEFF (Post 416)
Unvote: Vote Mastin (Post 473)
Unvote. (Post 474)
Vote: Benmage (Post 1103)
Unvote, Vote: Cephir (Post 1480)

VP Baltar

Vote GIEFF (Post 113)
Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage (Post 144)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 237)
Unvote, Vote:alexhans (Post 524)
Unvote, Vote Mastin (Post 745)

Benmage

Vote Mastin (Post 83)
unvote (Post 194)
Vote Mastin (Post 230)
Vote Camn (Post 644)
vote Mastin (Post 866)
vote Gieff (Post 957)
Vote Mastin (Post 1075)
Vote SensFan (Post 1105)
vote Benmage (Post 1116)
unvote (Post 1176)
vote Cephrir (Post 1259)
vote Cephrir (Post 1343)
Vote SensFan (Post 1524)

Battle Mage

Vote: Ben (Post 69)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 72)
Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans (Post 111)
Confirm Vote: Alex (Post 143)
Unvote, Vote: Gieff (Post 214)
Unvote, Vote: VP Baltar (Post 354)
Unvote, Vote: Camn (Post 659)
Unvote (Post 692)
Vote: Camn (Post 753)
Unvote, Vote: Jammer (Post 809)
Unvote, Vote: Alexhans (Post 985)
Vote: Gieff (Post 1224)
Unvote, Vote: Zach (Post 1235)
Unvote (Post 1248)
Vote: Cephrir (Post 1252)
Unvote (Post 1351)
Unvote, Vote: Cephrir (Post 1359)
Unvote, Vote: Zach (Post 1402)
Vote: Kmd (Post 1506)

Kmd4390

Vote Cephrir (Post 253)
Unvote, Vote GIEFF (Post 320)
Unvote, Vote Alexhans (Post 720)
Unvote, Vote Mastin (Post 806)
Vote GIEFF (Post 1327)
Vote alexhans (Post 1486)
Unvote, Vote blackcatcontract (Post 1493)

[GIEFF]

I just said that an Alex+Camn scumpair because I used a buddying language (coaching?) was stupid.

camn and Mastin flipping town does NOT mean you are town.

[GIEFF]

BM, stop trying making it personal. It is scummy.

[GIEFF]

Yes, you're right. Alex, cut it out, too. Just stop addressing each other for now. Let others catch up.

[GIEFF]

That's it. No TV for a week. And the next person who escalates this will have to eat their supper in their room tonight.

[GIEFF]

Danny - what are your thoughts on a bcc lynch? You were the first vote on both of the previous two lynches, which both amounted to lurker-lynches.

[GIEFF]

How the hell do you have a town read on Spyrex?

[GIEFF]

Prod sent to blackcatcontract by PM and Kairyuu.

If it's just Kairyuu picking up the prod, can we get a replacement anyway? bcc doesn't have a post anywhere on-site in the last 2 weeks.

[GIEFF]

Not that he should have a scum-read on you, Spyrex, but I'm curious to see what exactly about your play made jammer think you were townie.

[GIEFF]

And it's #2, obviously.

[GIEFF]

When was I asking for your vote, spy?

Were you talking about when I asked EVERYBODY on the Cephrir-wagon to explain why they preferred it to bcc's wagon? I don't think you got the chance to answer before Sens hammered - can you answer it now please, Spy?

[GIEFF]

Both Ceph AND bcc picked up their prods, and neither posted. So you can't use this as a reason to prefer one to apples an apple is fruit.


So, I will ask again - why did you prefer lynching Cephrir to lynching bcc?


Danny, Benmage, jammer, and Zach - please feel free to answer this question, too.



------


I didn't see you list Spyrex as town, BM. Were you referring to this?

SpyreX's 1451 is also highly protown. He even makes a big deal of a contingency in which Cephrir is scum. Absolutely no motivation to do this as scum, especially as it is likely to alienate Gieff-one of the...louder, players in the game.
Was a Cephrir hater from Day 1.

You said one post of his was pro-town, you didn't call him obvtown. And you are wrong about 1451 - it is decidedly anti-town. Cephrir and bcc did almost the exact same thing, yet Spyrex (along with others) ignored ncc completely and focused on Cephrir, whom we ended up mislynching.

[GIEFF]

EBWOP:

Both Ceph AND bcc picked up their prods, and neither posted. So you can't use this as a reason to prefer one to the other. It's akin to saying you prefer apples to oranges because an apple is fruit.

[GIEFF]

Thanks, Zach. I already know your position on the matter, BM.

Still waiting on Spy, DDD, jammer, and Benmage to explain theirs.



----


And KMD, you came in today saying "Cephrir always lurks" - where were you yesterday when that outlook could have helped to stop a mislynch?

[GIEFF]

I'm not sure what you're aiming for asking me the same question again. And the analogy you've opted to use doesn't make sense:

Because you didn't answer it. You failed to differentiate between the two. You didn't even MENTION bcc.

And you still haven't told me WHY you hate oranges.

Was Ceph better? Hoss yes because him being scum meant you were dead to rises the next day.

Only because of your earlier guess that I am scum vomit-protecting Cephrir. Which is another example of you assuming Cephrir lurking is scum, but completely ignoring bcc lurking.

And Cephrir flipping town hasn't changed your mind on me at all, has it?


So if the only reason you had to choose Cephrir over bcc was to try to implicate me, then why not just vote me?

[GIEFF]

Every prod without fail he's picked up. He even talked with the mod at night. And chose not to play.

This applies equally well to bcc. I don't think Cephrir was a poor lynch, but I think blindly choosing Cephrir over bcc was bad play. Prior tunneling is NOT a good justification for future tunneling.

I never said you were ignoring bcc today, Spy - that is not relevant.

Believe it or not its not about you. Cephir was a-grade scummy and if he was scum you getting lynched is simply icing. Delicious icing, but icing nontheless.

Ceph-scum implicating me is the ONLY reason you have given for preferring Cephrir to bcc, other than the fact that you had already ignored bcc. So, yes, it IS about me.


I don't know if you are protecting your super-secret scum partner bcc. That is why I am asking questions. I have enough answers from you now, though, Spyrex - I would like to hear jammer, Benmage, and DDD explain their preference of Cephrir over bcc.

[GIEFF]

It means plenty, Spy. Ceph and bcc were virtually identical in terms of scumminess/lurkiness. Yet one of them was quick-lynched, and this person was a townie. There is virtually 0 chance that no scum were on Cephrir's wagon.

So, I think reasons and thoughts from who chose to lynch the townie are VERY helpful.



I want to see Benmage, jammer, and DDD explain their Cephrir votes.

[GIEFF]

Why are you trying to STOP people from explaining their reasoning? I see no possible pro-town motivation to do so.

[GIEFF]

unvote

vote blackcatcontract

[GIEFF]

Thanks. jammer?

[GIEFF]

I guess i spoke too soon.

Unvote, Vote: Alex

I'm sick and tired of making excuses for his schoolboy errors and slips. If you KNEW Cephrir was town, tell me, why didnt you say anything? Yet another terrible scum-slip.

I want you dead, right this minute. Anyone who wants to try and restore a bit of fun back into the game, please join me.

You posted this today. This is not the way someone posts about someone they think is town.

I doubt he will tbh. He's not been worried about being suspected before, and he's basically asking for it. I don't see him posting anything useful on our time, so a vote on him is effectively a vote for another lurker lynch.

I'm not much more confident with Alex, but at least with him dead, we might be able to make some progress with the game. Plus, his death will give us plenty of information i should think.

What information would alex-town give us?

[GIEFF]

No, if you listened to me, we would have lynched camn.


Is you voting alex related or un-related to your previous posts on this page, Zach?

[GIEFF]

I wanted camn to die more on day 1, and probably Battle Mage, too, but of two realistic lynches (alex and BM), I preferred alex.


I feel less sure he is scum now than I did then, in part because of the coaching meta applying when he is town. And in part because camn-town wrecked my alex-camn theory.


If I am reading your thought process correctly, you suspect BM and alex are scumbuddies?

[GIEFF]

1) Why did GIEFF went back to Mastin? (just because he couldn't get others to lynch me or Camn?)

Yes. I thought Mastin was scummy, just not as good a lynch as you or camn.

[GIEFF]

:D If Alex is scum and i get lynched tomorrow, then i'll be very happy. lol

Makes me wonder if thats what Alex was going for all along? :o

Anyway, if Alex is scum, after me, you'll be wanting to lynch Jammer.

That's all for now.

BM

You're saying you think alex was trying to link the two of you as a scumpair? Examples, please.

[GIEFF]

Alex, that wasn't a misrep. At the beginning of the post, you said you had a strong read on Mastin, and later in the post, you said your read was weak. It was a backtrack.

I don't think gloating is a strong scumtell either, Zach.

[GIEFF]

alexhans' scum. vs. town contributions:

[mrow]Game[col]Alignment[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / DayMini 714[col]Scum[col]0.6[col]0.5Open 129[col]Scum[col]2.1[col]1Mini 761[col]Town[col]2[col]1.3Mini 773[col]Town[col]1.2[col]1.2Newbie 744[col]Town[col]0.8[col]0.5Mafia 91[col]Town[col]4.5[col]2This game[col]?[col]3.9[col]3.9

Scum average

[col][col]1.4[col]0.8

Town average

[col][col]2.1[col]1.3

Alex's flurry of activity in this game is largely based on being attacked so much, but I would still call this a mild towntell.

[GIEFF]

Mildly scummy.

Then I guess it's going to be an uphill battle to convince you that Alex is the lynch of the day.

I thought you found BM and alex equally scummy? Why do you plan on battling to convince me to lynch alex?

[GIEFF]

Yes, I find BM scummier than alex. I think KMD, Spyrex, and Sens are scummy, too. I like my vote on bcc.

[GIEFF]

It wasn't a 180 degree turn at all, Benmage. It was more like a 20-degree turn. People said "either Mastin or alex," so I wanted to turn them toward alex because a) I thought alex was scummier than Mastin, and b) I thought alex-scum would implicate camn-scum.


I meta'd alex, as he requested, and found that he DID buddy/coach camn as town in another game, although not to the same extent. And camn flipping town completely shot the buddying theory down.

-------

Zach, I agree with alex's last post. You think BM's scummy behavior implies a bus-vote of alex, but if alex-scum is largely implied from being Battle Mage's buddy, doesn't it make more sense to attack BattleMage? You claimed to find them equally scummy, but then you said you would try to convince me to lynch alex. I just don't get it.

[GIEFF]

EBWOP: "alex's last post" referring to "If you think he's bussing me, vote HIM!"

[GIEFF]

If Alex is scum and i get lynched tomorrow, then i'll be very happy. lol

Makes me wonder if thats what Alex was going for all along?

BM

: I would like to see examples of alex trying to link the two of you as a scumpair. Also, would you like to lynch yourself today, if we promise to lynch alex tomorrow if you flip town?

jammer

: I would like to know why you have a town-read on Spyrex, and why you switched from bcc to Cephrir yesterday.

[GIEFF]

I actually see a pretty good argument for Gieff/Battle Mage that can't be ruled out now either.

You mean an argument that we are a scumpair?

[GIEFF]

What information would we get from an alex lynch? How would this progress the game?

[GIEFF]

@Battle Mage:

I'm trying to get into your head here:

1. You think alex is town.
   
   

2. I'm not much more confident with Alex, but at least with him dead, we might be able to make some progress with the game. Plus, his death will give us plenty of information i should think.

   You want to lynch alex for information and to help progress the game.
   
   

3. If Alex is town, i honestly dont know where we go next. Do you have any ideas?

   If alex is town, lynching alex provides no information.

I don't get it.


Also, why are you going all "woe is me" on us? You aren't even the biggest wagon.

[GIEFF]

Damnit, i'm gonna go down voting for someone i think is scum. xD

You have two votes.

[GIEFF]

I wanted camn to die more on day 1, and probably Battle Mage, too, but of two realistic lynches (alex and

BM

Mastin

), I preferred alex.

Contradictory sentence.

BM

Oops - fixed the quote.


I don't think it was 95% personal, BM. You've been calling alex scummy the entire game. And that doesn't explain your claim that we would get a lot of information from his flip.

Damnit, i'm gonna go down voting for someone i think is scum. xD

You have two votes.

eh?

Only two people are voting for you, and you're talking about "going down," as if your lynch today is inevitable. It does not strike me as a genuine reaction.

[GIEFF]

I think you would make a great lynch, BM.

Are you trying to derail bcc's wagon?

[GIEFF]

Yesterday, I voted bcc and you told me to vote you.

Today, I am voting bcc, and you AGAIN try to prod me into voting for you.



I don't think that is a coincidence. Especially when coupled with your magical meta-read of bcc that you can't tell any of us about, and your steering of yesterday's lynch onto Cephrir.

[GIEFF]

So you would rather lynch yourself than bcc?

Putting attention onto yourself is a rather extreme method of stopping another's lynch, and you've done so TWICE now to bcc.


As I said, I like my bcc vote.

[GIEFF]

I am NOT pushing your wagon, Battle Mage. I think you're scummy. But I'd prefer to see a bcc lynch.

[GIEFF]

Yesterday, i was more convinced that BCC was town,

because your attack on him was so contrived.

Now im not so convinced. That does not make BCC a good lynch.

Wait, I thought you were convinced BCC was town because of your magical meta read you can't share with us?

Having trouble keeping your story straight?

[GIEFF]

Yes, good strategy. I find a massive scumslip/inconsistency, so the best plan is just to vote me and leave the thread for a few hours. I'm sure that will work.

[GIEFF]

You already know my main reason for thinking BCC to be town. It's completely reasonable.

No. It isn't reasonable in the slightest.


When you were scrambling for reasons to find bcc town yesterday, why didn't you bring this up? The ONLY thing you could find was your magical meta read. When asked for further reasons, you said "I'm not answering any more questions on my position", "if you believe im scum, your vote should be on me," and "maybe he intends to come back but cant get into the reread." Not a single thing about my attack on bcc (which wasn't even really an attack) being contrived.

And in what way was my attack on bcc contrived?

[GIEFF]

OK, I'll do it when I get a chance. BM is right though, it won't be a very strong tell either way.

Your attack on BCC was contrived, because when you looked at both him and Cephrir, the information you found suggested Cephrir as a better lynch. Yet, somehow, you continued to push BCC, in face of your own analysis.

For the last time, my information did

not

show Cephrir as a better lynch. My information showed Cephrir lurks like crazy as both town and scum, but to an even GREATER extent as town.

Instead of appealing to emotion, BM, why don't you try telling us what your meta read was? Or at least why you can't tell us about it? bcc is in no ongoing games.

[GIEFF]

Danny, who do you think is town in this game?

Here are your posting habits, by role.

[mrow]Game[col]Alignment[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / DayMini 817[col]Scum[col]1.5[col]0.6Newbie 783[col]Scum[col]0.7[col]0.5Newbie 739[col]Scum[col]0.8[col]0.5Newbie 727[col]Scum[col]1.1[col]0.7South Park Mafia[col]SK[col]0.9[col]0.5Mini 779[col]Town[col]0.6[col]0.2Mini 749[col]Town[col]2.5[col]1.4Mini 749[col]Town[col]2.5[col]1.4Mini 761[col]Town[col]1.6[col]0.8Open 142[col]Town[col]1.3[col]0.7Newbie 743[col]Town[col]1.5[col]1.2This Game[col]?[col]0.9[col]0.3[col][col][col]Non-Town Average[col][col]1[col]0.6Town Average[col][col]1.7[col]1

[GIEFF]

You should check your info again. Or, even better, find my response to it, where i actually took the time to trawl through the games you suggested. Smile
Did you check Freelancer out in the end, btw?

Which response are you referring to? Post 1288? You said that Cephrir was more invested in his other town-lurk games then this one, and I agree. But he was ALSO more invested in his scum games than in this one. So his behavior here didn't fit EITHER meta. And as I said yesterday, Cephrir's lurking was a site-wide issue - not just this game.


Yes, I saw freelancer. I am more concerned with your defense of bcc than your attack on Cephrir, but I don't think your argument held a lot of water. Pro-town cult with some scum left does not play the same as scum.



Yes, you can have a week.

[GIEFF]

Dammit, you're right Danny - sorry. That changes your town averages quite a bit. Who do you think is town, Danny?

[mrow]Game[col]Alignment[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / DayMini 817[col]Scum[col]1.5[col]0.6Newbie 783[col]Scum[col]0.7[col]0.5Newbie 739[col]Scum[col]0.8[col]0.5Newbie 727[col]Scum[col]1.1[col]0.7South Park Mafia[col]SK[col]0.9[col]0.5Mini 779[col]Town[col]0.6[col]0.2Mini 749[col]Town[col]2.5[col]1.4Mini 793[col]Town[col]0.4[col]0.1Mini 761[col]Town[col]1.6[col]0.8Open 142[col]Town[col]1.3[col]0.7Newbie 743[col]Town[col]1.5[col]1.2This Game[col]?[col]0.9[col]0.3[col][col][col]Non-Town Average[col][col]1[col]0.6Town Average[col][col]1.3[col]0.7

[GIEFF]

Benmage: Why did you say you didn't understand the VP Baltar night-kill?

[GIEFF]

@Camn, what do you think about Gieff's 'cases' on you?
Do you think he is mafia trying to mislynch you or overeager town?

This looked scummy to me when jammer posted it, as he was assuming camn was town. Now that we know camn is town, it looks even scummier. Many of those who thought camn was town thought so for meta reasons. But jammer had no meta reasons at all.

jammer - why did you have a town-read on camn? And why do you have a town-read on spyrex?

Also, why do you have a scum-read on alex?

[GIEFF]

Yes, there's a special post restriction where you have to say his name three times in front of a mirror in a darkened room for him to appear.

Ok, seriously, I haven't heard anything yet, the prod is still in my outbox, and Kairyuu hasn't found him either. My normal time allotted for prod pickup in newbies is 48 hours, so I'll give him until the end of tomorrow before determining whether or not he's AWOL and needs replacement.

I assume nothing yet on the bcc front? Can we get a replacement?

[GIEFF]

Sensfan, Spyrex, jammer, and DDD: Where are you guys in this game? Are you caught up?

Sens, you said you'd check in yesterday - are you close to being able to do so?

[GIEFF]

Only if you're at L-1, BM.

[GIEFF]

[GIEFF]

I am the one flying the helicopter.



Hey Battle Mage, what do you think about using words like "honestly" and "genuine" when describing your own thought process? Do you think it's scummy?

[GIEFF]

Hey Battle Mage, what do you think about using words like "honestly" and "genuine" when describing your own thought process? Do you think it's scummy?

I think my interaction with spyrex will be clearer once jammer answers my question.

[GIEFF]

This reminds me of something that i do in real life. I'm a bit of a joker, so sometimes people dont take me seriously (randomlunatic can vouch for this) and if i especially want to be believed, i often precede the lie with something like "honestly", or stick the word "genuinely" in somewhere to try and make it sound more believable. This is the kinda thing Elmo does here in italics. I'm not saying he's lying-he might GENUINELY HONESTLY be ill. But the fact he tries to make it persuasive, indicates that he is worried we wont believe him. And the only grounds on which we wouldnt believe him, is if he is mafia.

I agree with this, and have used it in past games. People saying "honestly" and "to be honest" a lot are often scum.


But I looked through three of your scum games, and you don't use the word "honest" at ALL. Weird, huh?

[GIEFF]

"Yes, this behavior is scummy, but I haven't done it as scum before" is a very bad defense, Battle Mage.



But I agree that KMD's vote makes little sense. What is your "VC analysis" kmd?

[GIEFF]

Oh, OK - Post 1492.

Extremely arbitrary. You give absolutely no reason for thinking 1-2 scum were on the Mastin wagon.

But I do VERY much agree that the fact that BM and alex are the only two people not on either mislynch is quite scum-tastic. BM especially, as he did a quick whoop-de-doo from Mastin-scum to Mastin-town and so forcefully advocated for a Cephrir lynch.



But then again, I've never before seen him forcefully advocate for a Cephrir mis-lynch on day two and end up off of the wagon when he was scum, so I guess it's not a scumtell.

[GIEFF]

@gieff Also, spyrex posts just seemed town to me? Could you just make a case on spyrex if you suspect him?

No. This isn't about me thinking spyrex is scum, this is about you thinking he is town.

You've said hardly anything about spyrex all game. You threw a quick, weird, vote on him for his camn vote, and have said basically nothing else. You don't have a null read, you have a town read. So please explain what exactly about spyrex's posts strike you as town.

[GIEFF]

i'll also point out, it seems your vote is entirely based on my prediction that i will die today. Kinda ironic, but hey-ho. Whilst i've heard, and probably cited, "giving-up scumtell" before, again, it doesnt really apply to me, as im sure previous games will show. You have no case.

BM

I was referring to your "giving-up" scumtell defense.


All I said was that you don't use the word "honestly" in games where you are scum - that's not a defense at all, and you know it.

[GIEFF]

What makes you more comfortable with your vote, Spyrex?





THANK YOU YAW AND VI!!!!

unvote bcc/Vi

[GIEFF]

vote Sensfan

[GIEFF]

I meant: why are you more confident about your DDD vote?

[GIEFF]

If you are town there is NO WAY they can let you live much longer as a vocal point.

Who is "they?"

[GIEFF]

Spyrex and BM:

You both find me very scummy.
Yet you both think that if I AM town, I will be (or should have already been) night-killed.


But why? If I'm so scummy, doesn't it makes sense for scum to try to leave me alive as a potential mislynch?


And wouldn't scum also try to

keep

my mislynch viable by, just as an example, saying that I should have been nightkilled if I were town?

[GIEFF]

You are ignoring my point. If I am scummy, then why would scum try to kill me?

[GIEFF]

VERY brief summary for you, Vi

Day 1: Mastin tried to claim he was cleared, tooted his own horn about ending the random-voting stage, and put a lot of credence into NK-analysis. He lurked like crazy, never even getting to page 5, and so he was unable to defend himself, and eventually got lynched.

Day 2: Cephrir and blackcatcontract (your predecessor) had both lurked like CRAZY, something like 2 weeks without a post, although they were picking up prods. We decided to lurker lynch one of them, and ended up choosing Cephrir.

Day 3: BLACK HELICOPTERS




If you are going for a full re-read, you may want to just skim long day-1 quote-wars between BM and alex, me and camn, or camn and Benmage. You likely won't get a lot more information out of them other than the fact that they suspected each other.

[GIEFF]

BM, I am tired of you telling me what I mean.

I was not defending you, I was gauging your reaction. And I didn't mention the "giving up scumtell" defense, which is what was actually being referred to.

My meta did not suggest Cephrir was scum.



And how is your argument valid? Why would scum kill a townie who looks so scummy?

[GIEFF]

I apologize for the length of this post - I have been trying to be succinct, but this point is complicated, and this was the best I could do. Please read it.

-------

Likewise, your assessment of the use of words like "honestly" and "genuine", indicates i am town, because you said i dont use them as scum, and i have used them quite a bit here.

This is completely wrong. You are using faulty logic, the same faulty logic you used to mislynch Cephrir.

The point is that you hardly ever use the word "honestly" as town, either, and so meta arguments hold no water either way. And so a defense based on this concept is not a valid one.


You used similarly flawed logic in the Cephrir lynch, Battle Mage, by just looking at one alignment possibility:

You've already seen that Cephrir does not play like this as town. There shouldnt even be an issue here.

But the point that I kept bringing up, and that you kept ignoring, was that HE DIDN'T PLAY THAT WAY AS SCUM EITHER, pro-town cult notwithstanding. It's not enough to just look at one alignment possibility - you have to look at

both

and decide which is more likely.

For example, I've never done in-depth activity analyses before, as I have in this game.

1. GIEFF has never done this before as scum, so he's more likely to be town.
2. GIEFF has never done this before as town, so he's more likely to be scum.
3. GIEFF hasn't done it as EITHER alignment, so meta arguments should be ignored - the behavior itself is more important

Obviously, #3 is the only correct statement.


Do you see my point, BM? Why the logic in #1 and #2 logic is faulty, and how easy it is for scum to just cherry pick one argument and ignore the other?

You chose #1 (I've never done it as scum) to defend yourself, and you chose #2 (Cephrir never did this as town) to attack Cephrir.


------------

Your scumminess has only really come to the fore of discussion today.

Demonstrably false. Ask Benmage, Zach, Spyrex, Sens, jammer, or KMD. You will need to find a different excuse for wondering (or pretending to wonder) why scum didn't NK me - this one won't fly. I have been the #2 or #3 lynch-target for most of this game.

Whether you like it or not, your meta DID suggest Cephrir was scum. It's not just my opinion-everyone who commented on that, agreed with me, if i recall.

Demonstrably false. Ask Zach. I didn't see anybody else referencing my meta, which clearly showed Cephrir was LESS active as town, but NEVER this inactive, as either scum or town.




Another question, BM: were you already aware you used the word "honestly" a lot in this game, or did you iso-read yourself to check?

[GIEFF]

Spyrex - can you address my post 1840?

[GIEFF]

ZACH used the words "significant discussion." What Battle Mage said was that my "scumminess has only come to the forefront today," which, again, is obviously very wrong.

Your point about the lack of obvtown players to NK is a good one, Spyrex. But you said that there is NO WAY scum can keep letting me live, which doesn't make a lot of sense coming from the same player who said this:

As for who my suspect is I'm pretty sure a vote should make that really clear. The fact you keep just swishing by this is just confirming my theory that is spelled out more than once that one of you (probably you) is being a vomit-waterfall that Ceph is hiding in.

So which is it? Is my high activity and posting rate a hindrance to the mafia or a help?


This really stinks of either one or both of you and BM trying to set up my mislynch later on. BM has to ignore reality (people find me scummy), and you have to ignore your previous claims (you said that my "vomit" was HELPING the mafia, not hurting it) in order to make it seem suspicious that I am still alive.

[GIEFF]

And are we going to argue the difference between "significant discussion" and "coming to the forefront"?

I don't want to, but you are the one who tried to make that distinction. BM tried to claim people haven't called me scummy very much, and that's the bottom line, semantics be damned.

Why is scenario 1 only possible if we lynch scum? I don't understand what you mean by that, or by the fat-lylo and regular type.


Do you think I've calibrated my posts recently? From your recent posts, it looks like you think I'm still spewing. If so, then again, why would mafia kill a player ripe for a mislynch, who will help distract the town with the spew?


Another way scum could try to get me to become less active is to claim that my activity is scummy, and threaten me to stop. This strategy would work even better than a night-kill, because this way I am still left alive for a mislynch.

[GIEFF]

Spyrex, they were far from 1 shot snipes.

Read This post.

In it, BM says:

Gieff's play yesterday was far from stellar, and tbh, i'll be surprised if he isnt NKed tonight.

Stop trying to argue out of this with semantics. It doesn't matter is it's "significant" or in the "forefront." Many people called me scummy over many posts, and I am high on many people's lynch-lists. BM thinks I played poorly. Scum should have nothing to fear from a player who MANY people find scummy, especially if that player is playing so poorly.

[GIEFF]

That isn't the point at all, spyrex.

The point is that many people find me scummy, which means I am ripe for a mislynch, which means it makes little sense for scum to NK me. I don't see why this is so difficult to understand.

Why does there have to have been a past wagon for my lynch to be likely?

[GIEFF]

Because in this game you are making some kind of connection between "saying you are scummy" and that equating "saving me for a mislynch".

I am not. Many have called me scummy, but you and Battle Mage are the only two who have suggested that scum should try to kill me. THAT is what looks like saving me for a mislynch.

It makes no sense to me that the camn business didn't make sense to others. She didn't seem like she was trying to find scum.


I think you have explained your own behavior well enough that I can understand it from a Spy-town perspective, i.e. a town-GIEFF lynch hurts the town more than a town-lurker lynch. I don't necessarily think the town-explanation makes more sense than the scum-explanation, but I do follow the logic.


However, I see NO possible town-explanation for Battle Mage's behavior, and I don't see why you are defending him, especially by resorting to semantics.

Did you read the post of his that I linked?

You MAY be scum. In fact I'm starting to swing that way hard for the umpteenth time.

Had you ever swung back the other way? I assumed you've thought me scum this whole time.

------

BM, you said the camn-NK implicated me - why is that?

[GIEFF]

I will summarize the case when I get a chance. It's mostly the fact that he worked so hard to mislynch Cephrir yesterday, without being on the wagon at the end of the day. While trying time and time again to mis-characterize my meta analysis, and tell everybody I agreed with him.

There is also his behavior on day 1 - I summarized how some of it makes a lot of sense as scum in post 378.

He has gone all over the place, suspecting and unsuspecting people left and right when it suits his purposes.



Why do you have a town read on him?

[GIEFF]

I agree that the Cephrir lynch was not a bad move.

But TWO people were lurking equally. In fact, go back and look at each person's last post - Cephrir actually posted in this thread after bcc's last one. The "bad move" yesterday was that people just let themselves be steered without thinking about which of the two lurkers was a better lynch.

My issue with Battle Mage's Day 2 play is the fact that he steered the town toward lynching Cephrir over bcc, mischaracterized my meta by using faulty logic (point #2 in Post 1859), and distanced himself from it by hopping off the wagon before it went through to lynch, then later defended himself with his absence.

And he went so far in defending bcc that he told people to vote for HIM over bcc.



I think you should get more for your BM town-read, because that gambit doesn't seem like much to me. It's really easy for a scum to make that play, too.

Is your town-read on Benmage based mostly on him posting the walls at the start of Day 2?

[GIEFF]

I will make it a nice, formatted, numbered lists, with links to everything, and I will think up a catchy slogan for my case that will stick in the jurors' minds.

[GIEFF]

BM, what is the point of your last post? My point is that the majority of the game finds me scummy, so I am a good mislynch. How big my wagon was is not relevant. I am the #2 or #3 person on most people's lynch-lists. There is no need for these long pages of individual quotes - it looks like you are just throwing them out to muddle my point, which is a very simple one.

Also, you flipped out about 2 votes on you, and I think that's probably the largest YOUR wagon has ever been - why do you think 2 votes on you is so likely to lead to a lynch but 2 or 3 votes on me multiple times from multiple people is not?

The point is that you hardly ever use the word "honestly" as town, either, and so meta arguments hold no water either way. And so a defense based on this concept is not a valid one.

Lol, you have meta grounds to back this assertion up, i assume? If so, why havent you mentioned them?

I looked at three scum games and three town games. You use the word (to describe your own thought process) maybe once or twice at most in all 6 of them, but you probably used it 15-20 times in this game. I just wanted to see if:

a) you were aware of using the word so much in this game, and if you would admit to being aware of it.
b) you would try to defend yourself

And you did not answer my question - were you already aware of having used the word so much here, or did you iso-read yourself to check?

For example, I've never done in-depth activity analyses before, as I have in this game.

1. GIEFF has never done this before as scum, so he's more likely to be town.
2. GIEFF has never done this before as town, so he's more likely to be scum.
3. GIEFF hasn't done it as EITHER alignment, so meta arguments should be ignored - the behavior itself is more important


Obviously, #3 is the only correct statement.


Do you see my point, BM? Why the logic in #1 and #2 logic is faulty, and how easy it is for scum to just cherry pick one argument and ignore the other?

This entire quote is a false dilemma. I don't really know what you expect me to say, other than:

*facepalm*

The post is meant to demonstrate faulty logic (although not a false dilemma), in #1 and #2. But I assume this means that you do see why #1 and #2 are faulty? And you do see how you used the faulty logic in #2 to lynch Cephrir?

When judging whether or not an action better fits a player's town meta or his scum meta, you need to look at BOTH alignments. The post above is meant to demonstrate how faulty your logic can be if you don't do this (in points 1 and 2).

Please confirm if you understand the point I am trying to make here.



Also, pro-town cult is not scum. True, they are both more worried about survival, but cults are completely different in that they can grow. And scum was still alive when Cephrir was in the game, so he would still have motivation to scum-hunt - this is NOT the case for scum.

And, as I've said, Cephrir was lurking equally in EVERY game - when he mega-lurked in Freelancer, he was active in other parts of the site.

I don't have as big a problem with your own cult-meta argument as I do with your attempt to ignore/circumvent/change my own meta argument, and then claim that I agree with you about the way you interpreted it.

[GIEFF]

Thanks for calling me a playa, BM, you're the best.

!

[GIEFF]

I would like to lynch you based on your predecessors, Vi, but we're 0/2 on the lurker-lynches. It's hard to believe that all 3 of the criminal-lurkers are town, but even if we lynch you and you are town, it would be a less crushing loss if I can blame it on idiotic play. I have an ego to protect here.

This game is horrible, especially considering how hard our poor mod worked to recruit reliable people. Kai's behavior is OK, and I actually appreciate it no matter his/your role, but bcc/Cephrir/Mastin really suck.

I think Sens, Spyrex, and BM have played scummy, scummier than bcc has in his 4 posts and than you have in your 2 or 3, but experience tells me that scum lurk, and that the odds are very low that ALL 3 of the mega-lurkers are town.



If you were in a game with 3 insane-mega-2-week asshole lurkers, you lynched two of them and they both flipped town, would you lynch the third? Hypothetically speaking.

[GIEFF]

Vi, if BM is scum, do you think that we would be justified in assuming that you are scum too, based on his behavior toward bcc yesterday and today? i.e. making excuses for his lurking, and asking people to vote for BM instead of for bcc?

[GIEFF]

Hey guys, let's just all get drunk and then just admit if we've been naughty and killing innocent people. It's OK, we will forgive you. Let's just be cool and stop shooting people, and maybe we can put this lynch-rope away? I mean, this has just gone way too far.

[GIEFF]

I'm hammered too, but that is no excuse for poor spelling, Benmage.

Also, you should not be flying the black helicopters when you are drunk, we should let somebody else take over.

[GIEFF]

Yeah, DDD has done nothing really scummy. Sort of like how bcc has done nothing scummy, although not to the same extent. It's hard to judge who is best to lynch - those who have contributed so little that they don't have much behavior to judge, or those who have contributed, but done so scummily. I don't think DDD has lurked so horribly that it is criminal, but it's still hard to judge his alignment.

And yes, in the sign-up thread, Yaw said he was recruiting people with a reliable history of contributing without flaking, which makes the behavior by so many in this game even more infuriating.

[GIEFF]

unvote

vote Vi

Whee!

[GIEFF]

The sunshine bores the daylights out of me.

[GIEFF]

Re: GIEFF - Even if your case was more comprehensive, if it built on the assumption that GIEFF cut down, it wouldn't have been any better.

---

@GIEFF: Why'd you bother unvoting me?
If you went out into the sunshine, would you sparkle?

I don't understand the first sentence, Vi.


I unvoted you because you were no longer lurking, and others have played scummier. I re-voted you because I was drunk, and it was fun. No, I wouldn't sparkle.

unvote

vote Sensfan

Sens' last post in this game was 4 days ago - I know he lost his job and said he would be on V/LA, but can you prod him, Yaw? At what point would he be replaced if he never comes back to the game?

Can you also prod Mr. Danny D?

Thanks.

[GIEFF]

What has DDD done that is scummy besides contribute lightly?

[GIEFF]

bcc/Kai have contributed less than DDD has, Vi - is their behavior scummy, too?

[GIEFF]

It's just that if we're going to lynch someone solely for lurking, I think bcc would be the best bet. So it doesn't seem right of you to want to lynch DDD solely (or mainly) for lurking, and expect the rest of us to ignore the lurking of your predecessors.

[GIEFF]

So if a more active player replaced DDD, you would stop voting for him?

This is day 3. We can do better than just lynching one lightly-contributing player among many lightly-contributing players. If there are other reasons for suspecting DDD, I would like to see them, but right now it looks like another lurker-lynch.

I chose the name GIEFF after an exhaustive study of the most trustworthy combination of letters.

[GIEFF]

See, but SensFan has acted quite scummily - I haven't seen much scummy behavior from DDD.

[GIEFF]

I did not wall-post the town into submission. I have been trying hard to limit the length of my posts - when they are long it is usually because I am trying to summarize an entire case, or present data like meta or voting histories.

[GIEFF]

Why is it odd to ask what DDD's done that is scummy? How is that different than you asking for a case on BM?

[GIEFF]

But that's the point - if the only case against DDD is absence of contribution, then others fit that bill to a greater degree.

[GIEFF]

I don't get a scumvibe from DDD. He hasn't contributed much less than KMD has (from whom I DO get a scumvibe), and far more than bcc/Kai did.

[GIEFF]

So, if there are other factors then simply lurking in favor of BCC (which I haven't seen) then of COURSE those still apply.

But this is my point about Danny - other then inactivity, there are not other factors in favor of his lynch, and so I am asking people to provide them. I don't want to lynch Vi OR Danny today - I am done lynching people simply for not contributing.

I would like today's lynch to be based on scumminess, not on someone who lacks enough posts needed to gage scumminess (which I don't think even applies to DDD, he has enough posts to read as town to me).

[GIEFF]

I will try to take the time to make the BM case for you, but it will be a lot of work, and will be a long post. You said you would read his behavior yesterday regarding bcc vs. Cephrir - have you gotten a chance to do so yet?

[GIEFF]

Why, Benmage? Based on your posts, it looks like you are voting him for

a) his town vs. scum posting frequency
b) his "uselessness" this game


Is that right?

[GIEFF]

Numerically, at least, the frequency and amount of posts do NOT match, as his town and scum posting behaviors are similar. I feel partly responsible for your vote Benmage, as it came directly after (and likely as a result of) a mistake I made in putting the stats together. The updated stats are not incriminating in my eyes.

[GIEFF]

Also, i'd like to direct your attention to my game - Mean Mod LoveFest, in the Theme Park. Where Kairyuu has just flipped scum.

THAT is why i couldnt cite the meta until now. And THAT is why i felt that Kairyuu, and hence, BCC, were very unlikely to be scum.

So you knew Kai remained active as scum in that game, and so figured that replacing out of this game was a towntell?

[GIEFF]

And your opposition was making me more adamant as well, especially because you couldn't give your bcc/Kai read, and because you kept misinterpreting my argument.

I understand your reasoning now, and can see how it would make sense from a townie's perspective. I still don't like the fact that you tried to defend yourself with your absence from the wagon, or that you kept trying to claim I was on your side of the meta-analysis, but the "magical meta" argument is laid to rest as far as I am concerned.


Sorry to repeat myself again BM, but while you're here: were you aware of your heavy usage of "honestly" already, or did you have to iso-read yourself to check?

[GIEFF]

Fair enough BM. Another question, though - were you already aware of your usage of the word? Or did you iso-read?


Sorry, can't believe I missed it twice. I was way drunk when I read your 303, and missed that part of it. I should go back and read that page again...