Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[molestargazer]

Hi there.

Lucky (or not!) for me, I'm finishing college on thursday, so I should have plenty of time for catching up starting from then - in the meantime, I'll try and skim the last few pages, but don't expect anything of any size.

Looking forward to the game!

[molestargazer]

Damn, Kmd, you're putting me to shame with all the catching up you've been doing.
Once again, tonight might be tricky. For once in my life, I'm actually going out and having a life (!) tonight, so I'll do my best for tomorrow as I previously stated.

[molestargazer]

You know, one of these days I'll actually catch up when I say I will.

First point before I start reading:

STRONGLY disagree with this generalization. It may be true for some players, but there are several players, including myself, who are the exact opposite and contribute MORE as scum than as town.

Quite interesting considering your recent levels of activity!

Since deadline is so close, I feel I'll be better served to start catching up from somewhere recent, say Page 35, instead of going RIGHT back to the start and missing anything currently relevant before the deadline and before I can get a vote in.
Instantly here, I'm seeing a lot of votes on mafiamann and notes about a Mastin RB claim and breadcrumb. I'll skip that for now, I'll get back to it later if I have time pre-deadline - if not, I'll try and catch up 'overnight'.

Oh trust me, I think it's a

shaky claim at best

and I agree that people were hopping off like it was on fire without even looking at the fact that his

breadcrumbs are weak

, but it

doesn't make sense to lynch him now when there are other scummy individuals we could go after

If you thought the claim was SO weak at the time, why did you decide that there were others scummier?

It'd be essentially wasting a lynch because the scum now want him dead as bad as we do.

If he is what he says he is. Which the earlier part of the claim makes me think that you think he isn't.

Given that there is likely more than one scum group

This is probably just my lack of reading, but is there anything that can prove this?

I have to push the wagon eventhough Mastin doesnt register town with me.

unvote vote: Mafiaman

This practically translates as "I think someone else is scummier, but everyone else is going with this wagon so I will".
I really don't like this post - and Empking's Alt's post prior to that is just as bad.

At this moment, I'm quite happy with CKD's note on Mufasa here - already from what Mufasa's posted, after less than a page of reading, I don't like it.

b) You say that your most recent reason for moving off of MM is that people are joining without reason and there is a deadline approaching and we have time. But on Mastin's wagon, you seemed to care about neither of these issues.

Again, forgive the lack of misread, but is it not possible that VP set out his reasons before encouraging this lynch?

My conclusion is that he's fake-claiming. He setup a broad breadcrumb, narrowed it to watcher for awhile before switching at the last minute to roleblocker.

If this is true, why would he switch his carefully setup fakeclaim from watcher to roleblocker at the last minute?

Oh cheese! I've read through a little more closely and that's probably the only scummy behavior I can 100% think of as scummy!

Vote: Mufasa

"Oh, god! It's an easy vote to get away with switching to!"
Could you please explain in a little more depth why you think it's

100%

scummy and why you didn't notice it straightaway if it's so bad?

I felt that a lot of people were ignoring him because they weren't really reading his posts.

I can believe that.

Oh, and I predict that in the future, this game will be used against me in a meta attack showing that I am capable of reading 38 pages in one RL day while also staying active in the rest of my games during that day. (Disclaimer: I didn't have to work today and wasn't feeling as lazy as I normally am)

I won't do that, I know it must take a special kind of insanity to do 38 pages in a day.

I didn't, I always thought his bread crumbing was a scum method, when I said they were good I meant that they were put together good, but when I say that they are bad its because I believe that he set them up to use as a fake claim for his roleblocking claim.

What convinced you that he was using them to setup a fakeclaim?

Proven? I had a town read on you early, but this is one of a few twitches I've had concerning you.

I still haven't heard a reasonable alternative for my proof(logical in this case) so I will continue to believe he is scum. At this point I've only changed my vote due to the public opinion that town shouldn't lynch a claimed miller because they likely won't live until end game, so it can be better used elsewhere.

I don't like how you think that a lack of response is definite proof of a person's being scum. Sure, it's not good. But it's not conclusive either.

@molestargazer: Welcome!

Hi there! If you're reading this wall of text enough to notice this, thanks again!

Casn somebody vote MM, please.

Pops in a few pages after a non-reasoned vote and wants to back it up. No.

For now,

Vote: Mufasa

I will, however, come back tomorrow and read the MM case to decide if I think that's worth it. Rest assured, I'll deliver a verdict on that one before the deadline.

[molestargazer]

Yes, I'm here. Just about.
Sorry.
Damn, this day's already longer than I thought it was, so time to get back on the little hamster wheel and catch up.

Kise totally had Zazie at post 232 or so.. Zazie's over the top defence about how she knew there were two scumgroups was obvscum.

This just caught my eye. It's easy to say that it was obvscum NOW, but I'm wondering if you did so at the time. I'll put it on my 'To-Read' list (Currently about 4000 items long, but I'll get there! ).

At the bottom of the page there is a drop down tab where you can select a specific user to view in isloation. By default it is set to "all users". Just click on the down arrow and scroll to select a specific player.

Oh, god, how have I not spotted that before? That is amazingly useful.

oh look, someone who was mindlessly pushing a khan wagon flipped scum. i am in no way surprised. now can we stop all discussion of ever lynching khan, finally?

vote: hayker

Could you please give a bit of explanation as to why you cast this vote?

Interesting. What is a neighbour?

This jumps out as a lack of reading (Ironic coming from me, but there you go). This had already been covered since the start of this day, just a page before this post.

I read ckool iso last night too, and I got a scum read from him

Jumps out as an "Oh, yeah, me too" kinda going with the flow. I will, however, continue reading and will await the results of both Wicked's and VP's iso reads.

Also I don't consider my thanking buddying because I'm Canadian and thank people for assisting people. (And no I'm not trying to say other people in other countried don't thank people.)

To those accusing Hayker of buddying - Is this thanking the only reason you think this buddying's taken place? If not, could you please explain a little more so we can get a response?

An observation. I know, kill speculation, kinda bad/possibly rolefishing, but this is interesting info.
Sotty7, Emerald Townie - Slaughtered Night Zero
elvis_knits, Emerald Jailkeeper - Murdered Night Zero
Konowa, Cerulean Mafia Doctor - Annihilated Night Zero
Seryna Kise, Emerald Townie - Slaughtered Night One
nadroj15 ZazieR, Vermillion Mafia Goon - Murdered Night One
Mufasa, Emerald Neighbour - Annihilated Night One

-Some stuff cut out-

In my eyes, I am seeing evidence that further supports my theory of four killing factions with one of them being blocked.

You see three kills BOTH nights and still assume four killing factions? Do you honestly believe that someone was blocked both nights?

I think it is a VERY real possibility that he was blocked in his nk attempt N0.

Why do you think this is such a real possibility? The odds against it happened are massive.

can we lynch mastin now? he's just going to continue trying to use his fake rb claim to spin farfetched theories and try to score mislynches with them.

He's made one post today, and that wasn't trying to lynch anyone. I'm sure you have a convincing case somewhere, but at least show it us.

Vote: roflcopter

I'm pretty sure Khan is indeed a miller now.

What makes you think miller?

I have to go now, not going to have much time to catch up tomorrow, but it should happen.

[molestargazer]

What makes you think miller?

Maybe it was the miller claim.

Touché.
Been very busy past few days, will do my best to keep up and carry on from where I left.

molestargazer, do you think Mastin is scummy? Why or why not?

I will get back to you as soon as I've caught up.
If I don't, remind me, I'll have forgotten.

[molestargazer]

So... you voted roflcopter for his attack on Mastin without bothering to actually decide if Mastin is scummy?

Yes.
If an attack looks scummy, it doesn't matter who it's on, surely?

I asked rofl in that post to give us his reasonings for his vote. So far, I haven't got that (As far as I know).
His playstyle so far, I think, is scummy. Right now, I think it's worthy of my vote.

[molestargazer]

And I continue my read of D3, from 1081. Right, this'll be a long one, I'm planning to catch up a good few pages. If I'm (un)lucky, I'll catch up completely.

My actions are a coin. Intention-wise, it's either anti-town or pro-town.
Doesn't give you my role or alignment. Making it null.
Neither pro-town in role, nor pro-scum in role.

I don't like this post. It's basically saying "You can't tell my alignment from my posts, so anything you see in them is null". That's now how it works.

Add to that, yes, I am that good a player

This doesn't mean we should trust everything you say. You could just as easily be a very good scum player diverting us all.

Thing is, Khan, this fallacy is blown full of holes when I give proof of me having done it in previous games (Meta), which then PROVES that I am not lying,
Therefore,
Am telling the truth.

I don't think meta can prove that a statement is true or not. I can show evidence of playstyle. It can never prove anything. If you're mafia, you could very easily be lying for this.

---Lots of stuff about there being 4 killing groups---
Where's the other scum's kill, then?

Have you not considered the possibility that it's non-existant?
It's VERY unlikely that a group is blocked TWICE.

Want more proof Khan is scum?
This quote.
He KNOWS that I breadcrumb hard as town.
See 742.

So, did he forget a very vital part of my meta?
Don't think so; he's scum.

Using meta as pure proof again. Which I don't like.

Phail. Vote: VP Baltar

Any particular reason?

Rofl's 'defence' here consists of saying "Wrong" or "what about it". In one case, he admits lurking. Does nothing to convince me.
Frankly, neither will meta. It's not pro-town play.

It's an extreme gut-based playstyle. It's not unreadable, you just need to read it differently.

Could you please elaborate? Explain (even if just shortly) what you're reading which makes you think he isn't scum?

Mastin - Where did you go? You're officially under suspicion, which should mean you're getting your jollies off and writing pages upon pages of material.

Oh, god, please don't encourage him.

If my kill fails, I panic. It means something went wrong, be it doctor (clearing the person protected, in some instances), or roleblocker.

Yeah, but I still don't see why that would make him panic. If VP and Lowell really are his partners, then how come they didn't seem to panic in any way.

Why is this a problem? Surely different people react in different ways?
(Not read the link or the meta behind this. Just saying.)

Bloody hell, I'm only on P46? I hate you guys. Just sayin'.
May as well post what I have now and carry on.

[molestargazer]

I would tend to agree with that theory, but is it worth risking a potential town PR this early in the game?

yes. his continued insistence that he's blocked some fantasy fourth kill source both nights means that a) he's almost certainly not town and b) if he is town, he's only going to detrimentally lead us on wild goose chases

I actually think this is quite a good point.
A RB isn't a claim that can be proved so early in the game (if at all), and it's something where it's very possible to be led on with.
I refer to Mafia 91, MM claimed doc (Similar to RB in the sense that it can't be "proved" as such so early on) as scum and lasted the whole game.

Would I be willing to lynch Mastin?
On what I've seen so far, no. I think he's a little scummy, and I don't like his "know-all" reasoning for how he's coined scum. But through my lack of a reread perhaps, I don't think he's lynchworthy quite yet. If I thought him scummy enough, I wouldn't let his claim stop me.

i prefer badgering scum into voting for their partners, as i'm attempting to do to you right now.

If you try to use this as a reason for voting, then I don't like this. I wouldn't vote anyone purely because someone else said so, without a solid case which I believed in.
It is possible for townies to think that others are pro-town and thus be unwilling to vote for them.

Why did you feel the need to lurk? Forgive me if you've already answered this, but don't you think it would be better for the town if you gave opinions as often as possible?

Sometimes, people don't choose to lurk, y'know.

I'll let Kmd answer this first, as it is adressed to him.

*Stares at Kmd waiting for a reply*

*Stares at Kmd again waiting for a reply*

Then why bother putting it in and making your post more of a nightmare to read?

I'm getting to the point where I'm starting to skip long posts, so I think now's as good a time as any to hold it for the night. More tomorrow, hopefully.

[molestargazer]

Interesting.
Mastin got to L-1 from 3 votes in 4 pages (51-54). In these pages, he only posted once apologising for his being V/LA.

I may as well say what I think now.
I personally think that this wagon formed FAR too quickly. Yes, Mastin is scummy. But I really don't think he's scummy enough to be worthy of a lynch. I think there's definitely some opportunistic scum on this wagon especially when he hasn't had a chance to defend what he's being voted for- oh, wait:

unvote, vote: mastin

ckool: if mastin flips scum you should kill kmd tonight, if he flips town you should kill me

Works for me even at the risk that Mastin actually is scum. It's just one more way that my top suspect can be eliminated.

Unvote, Vote Mastin

vote: Mastin

Um.... It seems like the correct thing to do.

Vote Mastin I'm not sure if I agree with the kill this person or that person depending on the flip. My gut read on rofl and Kmd is that they are both town and I think there are better persons to eliminate *cough* Lowell *cough*.

Wicked, do you think Hayker is town or scum as of this moment?

vote: Mastin

I like this bandwagon.

Hmm... True. I guess the Mastin wagon is better atm. Unvote Vote:Mastin

*DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING*

Time's up.

Mastin's had stacks of time to start posting properly, he did lie about when he came back (he's been posting like mad in jungle mafia), once he claimed and Zazie died he's gone completely silent when he is under great suspicion, something that's supposed to fire him up and get him involved with the game. Too much time, too many chances.

vote: Mastin

- There's barely any reasons to respond to.

This bandwagon has been formed because of one claim and an offer to NK someone. Everyone, with Clergyman as a possible exception, has lept onto this bandwagon without giving a single jot of reasoning for why they think he's scum, or without even summarising a previous case so that Mastin can defend himself.

It's just a poor attempt at a quicklynch.
As such, I won't be joining this wagon. I might be horribly wrong, but that's where I stand right now.

I got an innocent result from Kmd last night too.

Is this a cop claim or is it just results from a read?

[molestargazer]

Initial suspicions:

molestargazer

for an attempted last minute defense of Mastin. There's something weird about how he agreed with the majority about Mastin's scumminess, yet didn't want the lynch. Plus some of the people on the Mastin bandwagon that molestargazer listed have made their case against Mastin really clear (like VP Baltar for example). And why wasn't curiouskarmadog on your list? His vote (1164) isn't really any more in-depth than the rest that you quoted..

This was expected when I saw Mastin's alignment.

@The VPB Point - I was talking purely about the posts where they voted and the fact they didn't state their case before committing themselves to the wagon. I didn't like that.
@CKD Point - I either missed it or it past before where I started looking for the crap-voting posts.

I did what I thought was right, and I was wrong. *shrug*

[molestargazer]

Rereading. I'm going to try this format for catching up, in an effort to avoid a wall of quotes and text. I will keep any reasons I make for what I say, so if you see something that looks a bit off, ask me about it and I'll gladly explain.

Right, I've reached the end of P56, so here's a summary.
So far, I find Hayker pretty scummy. I don't like his "gloat" post at the very start of the day, nor do I like his absurd suggestion that Rofl is scum because his playstyle means that he could have bussed.

Vote: Hayker

I agree with Wicked that the inactives should come forward. I don't want blatant lurkers to survive longer than they have to.
Wondering why Xyl targeted purely Wicked's defence of Mastin near the start of the day and not others such as my own.

[molestargazer]

So let's move onto P57 and onwards.

Summary:
Don't like Wicked's defence of him attacking Mastin when he could easily be a member of another group.
Not sure I like forcing a claim out of Rofl, but I might not object if it could help clarify things.
I like Xyl's play for these pages.

Not sure I like Kmd's mega-quick flip from thinking Rofl is obvscum to thinking he's town, and listing me as possible scum for voting him on DAY 2, when Kmd himself still thought Rofl was scum, iirc.

[molestargazer]

It seems like I was right last night to think I would be the first target of the day.

So I just read redith/mole's iso posts and don't like the way he always seems to be catching up. He also made the last minute defense of Mastin, which I gotta say, looks pretty bad. His predasessor was also quite a bit of a lurker(more so than me)

Also, atr one point he says there is barely any reasons for mastin to repond to being voted. Well you know, except for all the posts wicked did on Mastin, or the 45 point view by VP of why Mastin is scummy. Sure not everyone put in 2 cents, but as one or two others have mentioned, some times, you simply need to make a vote. The case on Mastin was fairly complete, and wasn't about to grow any time soon because of Mastin's all of a sudden drop in posting.

And I'll throw in a defense of myself as a bonus.

One of the reasons that I think my idea could make sense, is the fact that all games have mind games within them. Mafia is a particularily good example of a game where mind games come in all the time. In fact, mafia is one giant cluster**** of a mind game. Mind games can be done in many, many different ways. One particular mind game, is for a "good" player, doing a "bad" move. This often makes a once terrible move, into a glorious Solar idea(cookie for referance). I play witht the assumption that mind games will come into play from many different angles, because mind games tend toi be very effective. Well, if done correctly anyways. Some times they crash and burn, but hey, every mind game has a downside.

Anyways

/vote:molestargazer

Firstly, wow, don't you just

LOVE

OMGUS?

1) I am not voting you because of ANYTHING you did yesterday.
2) Sorry, that's how I play. Like it or lump it.
3) Yes, my last-minute defence of Mastin looks bad. I did what I thought was right, I put my opinions forward, and I was wrong. I don't want to stray too much into WIFOM territory, but it would have been astoundingly dumb for me to do that as scum.
4) I was saying that at the TIME OF VOTING, no-one put any reasons forward.

5) You're talking about "mind games". That's no excuse for you to make an attack at someone that you cannot prove and has no reasoning to back it up other than playstyle. That's not a defence at all.

[molestargazer]

Whoops, forgot to respond to this.

His predasessor was also quite a bit of a lurker(more so than me)

Well, he obviously was lurking because he got REPLACED.
That isn't a point against me.

[molestargazer]

#2 is regarding this:

don't like the way he always seems to be catching up.

The fact is you are voting for me because I voted for you. If I hadn't attacked you, you wouldn't be voting for me right now. That's OMGUS.
I highly doubt you could honestly say you would've voted me anyway prior to my post.

[molestargazer]

Unvote

I believe it.

[molestargazer]

I missed a lot. Did hayker claim mason?

If so, a mason partner should pipe up and confirm. Coy masons annoy me and are useless.

If no one is willing to confirm, then he's making it up and we need his death.

Don't like the lack of reading, the wanting the mason buddy to claim (Rolefishing / trying to eek out the other mason to die?), and not even considering the fact that the mason buddy might even be dead.

Vote: Lowell

this is where we either force his scumbuddy to step up or we lynch him.

(i pretty much believe his claim

You believe it, but you think you should lynch him anyway?

Need to read Xyl's case on Wicked to see about the claim of lack of substance in there.

[molestargazer]

Mufasa, Emerald Neighbour - Annihilated Night One
Empking's Alt, Emerald Neighbour - Annihilated Night Two

I was under the impression they were one and the same.

[molestargazer]

In which case - Hayker, can you confirm you are in fact Mason and not a neighbour?

[molestargazer]

Unvote

Vote: Hayker

I think we have a scum pair here, guys.

I am an Emerald Neighbour. My neighbour was Empking's Alt - and only him. This evidently means that there is another neighbour pairing in Mufasa and someone else.

I think it's HIGHLY unlikely that another pro-town mason pairing (Or more?) would be put into the game by the mod, especially confirmable ones on top of neighbours which could be confirmable after one partner's death, particularly with the number of pro-town powerroles that are already dead. (Cop, Vigilante, Jailkeeper, 2 neighbours).
There are 13 people left alive. Hayker is claiming a pair of 2 masons in this mix, as well as there being 2 Neighbours still alive - myself and another. On top of this, only 3 scum are dead. This means that at the very least there are 3 others in the mix, if not a lot more. I think the odds of their being masons are pretty small.

It appears quite a coincidence that the masons are ones gaining a lot of suspicion. It would be a nice way to clear them both for at least a few days, if not until the end of the game, without anyone being able to question it due to our cop being dead. Their survival over nights can be questioned away using WIFOM. It will at least let them sit pretty for a few days and kill of a few more pro-town players, which COULD lead to them riding out the game.

[molestargazer]

I'd also like to point out that you rapidly changed from lowell to me very fast. I think you just had a better idea

Well, yeah.
I saw Lowell made a summy move when I assumed your claim meant neighbour, so I switched to him.
When I realised you claimed Mason, I thought of this.

What's scummy about that?

[molestargazer]

In short, about the claims - I think it's possible we have 2x neighbors and 1x masons but I suspect one of the neighbors to have scum in the pair. If we get a claim from the remaining neighbor - that doesn't help scum, but it will confirm there being 2 sets and we can then have a look and see if one of the remaining neighbors look particularly scummy.

The other neighbour may be scum. Which means they probably won't claim just to drop me in the soup.

Is reward greater than risk if we lynch one of the claimed masons today? If they flip scum, we've got another caught right away. If they flip mason, the most we do is confirm the other.

If I had thought it wasn't worth it, I wouldn't have claimed.

2 pairs of unconfirmed neighbours + 2 masons aren't that impossible are they?

I frankly believe it very unlikely with the amount of powerroles we have / had as well.

[molestargazer]

WTF? I might believe his neighbor claim if a 4th neighbor came out of the woodworks, but to take it at face value? No way.

The claim was unprompted. I wasn't near lynch. At all. I wasn't even being pressured.
I made the claim in a sincere belief that Hayker & Wicked might be scum, and the claim was needed to explain why I thought so.
The claim was, in all probability, suicide. If the lynches happened, and I was correct, I'd most certainly die pretty quickly. If I was wrong, I'd be dead very soon after.
Please outline why you think I would do this as scum.

[molestargazer]

Unlikely? molestargazer did agree to the "Let's testlynch the masons" idea shortly after his claim.

Yes, I did. Your point?

It doesn't quite make sense as scum unles you're really confident in your ability to talk yourself out of a tight corner, but truth be told you're not super high on my scum list. I'm more interested in Faraday's reaction.

Precisely.
Even if I COULD talk my way out of such a corner, it's very, very risky. No scum here. Move on.

mole, sc, faraday: why is your current vote (or lack thereof) better than voting for xyl?

I haven't read the Xyl case yet, so I can't really say.

[molestargazer]

What makes you say that? The other neighbours were town, why would your partner be scum?

I would like to know who your partner is.....if your partner denies being your partner, then we nail him tomorrow...there is no reason for your partner (at this point in the game) not to back up your claim.

You misunderstand.
My partner is dead. Therefore, someone else must have been neighboured with Mufasa.
They might be scum or town, we don't know.

[molestargazer]

Apologies for my absense - I've been away for a few days and forgot to notify everyone about the V/LA.

Looks like I've got a lot to catch up on.

[molestargazer]

Many apologies again, things have been pretty hectic recently.
Just reached my apology post at 1802, here's as good a time as any to post a quick summary of what I think so far (Starting from around P67/68).

I'm not sure I like how Kmd thought Xyl was scum until he made a mistake, then he's town.
I'm getting a gut feeling that Rofl is pretty pro-town from his posts.

I think that Wicked's balls-up in terms of "Read" and "result" isn't anything to look into. He got an innocent read, which has been stated several times by him. People still pushing it (Xyl, 1676) after this point could be classed as rolefishing?
SerialClergyMan makes a good point on Kmd's backtracking in regards to the testlynch thing.

@SpyreX

- Could you please explain what in particular it was about Rofl and Kmd that gave you a "Megatown" vibe?

@Kmd

- Could you please explain what it was in the VC analysis that led you to believe Nam's scum?

Really don't like Nam's "defence". Other than that, at the time of reading, I hadn't seen much of a case on Nam.
Despite the fact I don't like SpyreX's Para1 analysis in why Nam is scummy because of being annoyed by Mastin yet still thinking Pro-Town (I'll go into a bit more depth on this if you like), I think the end result is a strong case. I would probably be happy to vote right now.

I don't like Wicked's jumping about on the wagons and general cock-up regarding Nam/Xyl switching their votes to each other to prevent their lynch.

[molestargazer]

I don't like Namttam's WIFOMmy defence in 1812.
I don't like how Hayker thinks that a Lowell case is one more worth pursuing at this point in the game instead of a Nam or Xyl. Yes, it could be significant. But I'd like your opinions on the current cases and why you don't think they're that good.

@SpyreX

- How can WIFOM be used 'correctly'? An example please?

[molestargazer]

...

Self-votes are dumb. If you're town, they do us no good. If you're scum, it doesn't work in trying to convince anyone you're town, and won't stop any wagons.

You've failed at convincing me not to lynch you, nor have you managed to point out anyone else who could be scummy enough.

I'll honour your wish and wait for Kmd to post before I vote.