Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Hello everyone.
SC replacing in. Re-reading now.
I am also only on one other game on site that is painfully inactive at the moment, so I replaced in to this one rather than write a small novel of rage at the other participants in the aforementioned game.
EXPECT POSTS FILLED WITH UNTOLD AND OUT OF PLACE EMOTION SOONI'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Wow.. on one hand, Zaz's 12 consecutive 1-line posts make the pages fly by, but then Mastin comes back and suddenly I'm stuck again. I'm not a productive worker by any stretch of the imagination but I just cost my boss $150 and I haven't done any work nor gotten close to the pointy end of this thread.
I would nominate the title of Masin as 'zebra crossing' - the length doesn't bother me, but the insistence of quoting a line answering a line, quoting a line etc etc is giving me a contrast headache
Anyways, I am dilligently reading, expect content within some amount of time (roughly 24 hours, depending on how thick things are after page 10 or so).I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Serial's epic re-read journey finds another gem
QFTCKD wrote: on page 11, had to stop at post 255..eyes are bleeding.
this has to be the most fustrating game to read (replace in) I have ever been in.
Page 22 and heading for the summit. No oxygen, no supplies, eyes fighting against me, brain shutting down, time running out, but dammit I will watch the sunrise from the top of page 28...
(bottom would be more accurate literally but it doesn't go with the mountain climbing metaphor. Poetic licence and all)I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
Serial's epic re-read journey continues, stumbling without shelter under the glare of an unforgiving sun. (yeah, it's a desert now. I'm going all Lord of the Rings epic changing scenery on you).
After passing many mirages, he finds an oasis in the harsh countryside.
QFT.Can you believe I got caught up reading in only a two day period. Although it could just be due in large part to slacking at work.
I salute you, sir. Together we'll pull this global recession even further downI'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
M'okay. No more jokes (well, some jokes, but more serious stuff.)
I'm relatively new to this forum, so I don't want to stroll into this thread and start wagging fingers without understanding the complexities of peoples' relationships with each other. But in my opinion from the previous 28 pages, it seems to me like there are a LOT of personal grudges and ego battles that are really tainting the game.
Zaz and KK is a great example, it seems clear to me like the two of them just DO NOT like each other. There's absolutely no reason to go around and around in a circle like the two of them have, baiting each other with pretty severe personal comments (ZazieR is the queen of bullshit and bad argumentscomes to mind) and ridiculous research cases (You've seen mafia claim miller before? Really?) that made a minor issue spiral into one that's taken well over 100 posts of this game.
Mastin is another one - it's clear to me that rofl and VP and Lowell have a personal problem with Mastin and his style. Mastin also seems to have a personal problem of some kind, or is just generically offended, which leads to pointless discussion about his playstyle and it's effectiveness/scummyness.
For the record, my position on the KK/Zaz issue is similar to that outlined by VP above. I think nothing Zaz has brought up has really debunked the story of Got role, expanded on role, asked for confirmation and got original role back, confirming nothing special. You can choose to believe or disbelieve the role claim from this point on, but craplogic like finding examples from other miller claims or pushing about the differences between IRC mafia and forum mafia is just a personal ego battle. And since a D1 claimed miller is never going to get far enough into the game to worry us in the long run, I think it's time we cooled down and at least checked out a wealth of other scumtells and slips that the game has had to offer. (Again, no offense, and I don't know if you guys are bestest buddies around the site, just my impression from reading the game all in one go.)
My opinion on Mastin is that there's little point bitching about his playstyle in game. If you have personal tips for how he could refine his style, post them after or in a different place. This game should be about scumhunting and I think we can all agree that it's not specifically scummy this time given it's a modus operandi he's getting titled for.
Mastin, on the other hand, I'd say you have contradictions in your play, and I hate contradictions. I think you selectively accuse other people of tunnelling while doing so yourself and giving others a free pass. I think saying certain scumtells don't apply to you because you're different is a poor argument (everyone is different - tells remain constant.) I think you accuse others of role of flavour fishing while doing so yourself under the guise of scumhunting. And I also think you post more about how much you scumhunt than you do actually scumhunting. This is not taking away from the fact you are actually hunting, but meh. It's the chocolate chips in a gigantic bowl of vanilla icecream slush that I'm thankful for when I find them, but still wish I could have just fished them out when I feel sick after eating the whole bowl.
Ok - these are the posts that I think didn't get enough attention or really set off my scumdar.
175 Hayker
Hayker just says He's scummy because of saying that, it's not greatly scummy, and I never said it was, I can be wrong, but I think he's more and more scummy. ><. Epic scummy backtrack.Hayker wrote:
Looking back, it's not exactly w super scummy thing. Though I don't remember claiming it being super scummy, just that I found it scummy. And I am merely human(I know, it's unbelievable), and can indeed be wrong. As I read more of this game though, I'm thinking he's scummier and scummier, but that is because of his tunnel vision. Going by meta game knowledge that others have, that's normal. But I dan't go basing my opinions oiff of other peoples thoughts.Faraday wrote:
Why is that scummy?Hayker wrote:He's scummy because of saying the RVS was over, when it clearly wasn't to the majority of the players.
*twitch*Hayker in 180 wrote:So really I don't know much about that subject, and am currently looking at others opinions on that subject.
I hate posts like this. It's clear to anyone speculating about the setup that if there's a 'something' mafia then there's quite probably a 'something else' mafia, especially with 3 night kills. At best it's overzealous clutching at straws, at worst it's a deliberate attempt to put mud on someone for saying what every townie is thinking.Kise 194 wrote:You think there's 2 scum teams? Don't break my heart here Zazie... what do you know???
Johnny Rotten's 219 has been mentioned many times, but I'll register my finding it epically scummy. His hypothetical question about a cop targetting KK N0 is odd and points to rolefishing later on.
I didn't want to quote it all because this post will be long neough without further spam, but she posts 9 links to games to answer a question as to why she thought there were two scum factions. 9 links! This is way too eager to deflect criticism. An answer of 'Duh' would suffice.ZazieR in 232 wrote:Based upon these finished games, I think that there are two scumteams.
Completely don't understand this and find it highly dicey.Johnny Rotten in 239 wrote:would it make any difference if the cop were to have investigated KK night 0, and then come forward with his result? Would the guilty or not guilty verdict change anything?
Coaching. KK could well have known this is a poor argument likely to bring suspicion on JR and tried to get him to drop it like it's hot. Doesn't read as a legit answer to a question to me.kublai in 248 wrote:@Johnny Rotten 219 & 221 - There are so very few compelling reasons to policy lynch. Mastin hasn't come close to any of those reasons.
*twitch*wicked in 251 wrote: I am very glad that you are scum hunting and please continue to do so.
This continues but you get the point. What a lovely little pantomime. That was such a hamfisted little attempt to rid suspicion after a nice bit of buddying and appearing much closer than expected. It does not right true in the least for me. Scummy, yuk yuk.MafiaMann and FA in 256-265ish wrote:Mastin to be fair I was inactive for a long time maybe about 8 out of the 12 months ive been a member.
Mastin- Just because he has been on for about a year doesn't make him experienced. As he said, he was only playing for 4 out of the 12 months. Also, his scumhunting/attempt at it seemed more like stuff in the Road to Rome.
Im slightly insulted to be honest
Not trying to insult you at all. It's mostly just the same type of posting as ckool, IIoA, that makes it seem newbish to me.
Then it did not have the desired outcome
To be honest newbie behavior shouldnt be excused. Id rather lynch a newbie townie then be beaten by a newbie behaving scum. Im a little bit suspicious of you partly writing me off as newbie in some aspects.
And I'm a bit suspicious of your appeal to emotion. I'm not saying newbie behavior should be excused, all I am saying is you seem more like newb-town then newb-scum. Are you condoning your own lynch?
I hate don't vote me or you'll pay threats. Scummy.Mastin in 271 wrote:
And a huge mistake, which always ends up only making people angry afterwards and normally go hard after the person who pushed for itpolicy lynches on players adding contribution (and fucking loads of it) to the game are amazingly stupid.
*twitch*. Pro-town rhetoric without content, coaching...mafiamann wrote:Well the less you post the less likely you are to say anything beneficial to the town i have a similar problem but continue to post for 2 reasons.
1. If i dont post im not helping the town this is a bad tactic for any role because any role would at least want to appear to be helping the town,
2. Much of what someone says as town while may appear scummy at the time reveals a lot at your death (assuming you get lynched for "your scummy" behavior)
Hope this helps
Way to say nothing at all. Scummy? Not scummy? Thinking of voting him? Who knows?Faraday in 312 wrote:And as for KK, I don't like his confusion over his role at all. I think it's much more damning than any slip, btw. Surely if you're a miller you know you're a miller and not a death miller. Like, and if it wasn't clear from the role pm you pm the mod, or well I would Idk I've never been a miller.
So yeh I feel less confident about it now. I've no problem with his non miller related play though, i.e. most of the stuff he's said about people, seems reasonable.
*twitch*ckool in 318 wrote:I only post a lot when I don't have much to say, then think of something then post it... Then think of something else and post that, and etc
Not a good reason to hold an opinion. Lazy often = scummy.Mafiamann in 321 wrote:I believe it was pointed out several times in slip ups he made in falsehoods in his posts i think he even admitted it.
I think this was mentioned a bit, but to me the key thing is the bolded part. Sorry, WHAT? The whole thing to me is bizarre, I think wasting an investigation on the off chance of determining sanity (note: won't even help with paranoid) is bad play anyway, but for the cop to then CLAIM?? Terribad post.dvd in 322 wrote:If kublai is town, then this is the best thing that he could have done. If he is mafia, well who knows. But he should be vig-killed and investigated. So when he is killed,hopefully cop can claimand we can figure out the sanity of the cop.
Wow, shocker. Talk aobut trying to fit in with the crowd.Achilles in 351 wrote:A user asked for the people who hadn't posted much yet to post their opinion, so I figured the best way was to just comment on people who were already under suspicion. I can't think of other people beside the ones who currently have votes who stand out to me a suspicious, so I didn't comment on anyone else.
a) no lie.MafiaMann in 357 wrote:I dont want a lynch on him now but you definitely deserve a vote for telling a lie.
b) don't want a lynch on him now? Afraid we're going to get swept up in a tsunami of logical power and carry him to the gallows based on your 25 words or less competition entry post? Scummy.
*twitch*Achilles in 375 wrote:Yes, I'd also like if someone could summarize the arguments against JR. I don't remember reading anything from him that seemed blatantly scummy, but I guess I might be forgetting something.
^^^^ Officially not coincidence. Second bizarre pantomime with utterly unbelieveable dialog and reactions for two innocent townies who have no special ties. Deadset scummy.Our friends MafiaMann and FA in Pantomime 2 @ post 390ish wrote:Hayker? Why are you warning/advising/coaching ckool?
Maybe hes being helpful?
I try not to assume that players that coach each other are helpful (with the exception of ICs in newbie games). Given all the coaching and reasons from post 378, Vote Ckool5000.
Your voting Ckool because hayker was advising him?
Post 390 pretty much confirms it for me.
Major FOS on Ckool
Not for all that other stuff but mainly for post 390.
If your town you shouldnt get so frustrated you should continue scumhunting.
Especially since you only have my one vote on you. If you are town, you shouldn't be phased and give up. If you are scum, by all means do so.
*twitch*Achilles in 408 wrote:@ Kublai Khan (376) - At that point I did not have suspicions other then those who currently have votes.
Currently, I'm seeing ckool5000 more and more as scum. I felt 377 was just him trying to post something worthwhile, but 390 and subsequent posts seemed like scumtell.
Worthwhile noting at this point, Kise completely flips on the KK vs Zaz debate. At 288 he was for Kahn and anti-Zaz, at this point he's for Zaz and anti-Kahn. Could be legit, but to me there wasn't a lot to completely reverse your opinion on. Could be opportunistic.
Ugh. Hate threatening posts.roflcopter in 415 wrote:no. watch your step or it could be you.
Zero interest in scumhunting. *twitch*redith in 455 wrote:Woahwoahwoah. Me prodded? D:
Day one ends in like, two weeks. No need for this prodding.
Work is a bummer, and summer work blows.
But I am here.
Reading through the posts I don't see ckool's scuminess.
I guess it might just be me. So unless someone wants to elborate some more, imma go back through, for the 8th time. :/
Every time Achilles pops up I twitch like I'm Michael J Fox. Just being interested in showing you're not inactive is utterly unhelpful. Just because JR is getting replaced certainly does NOT waive him of all suspicion thus far attributed. Why on earth would anyone suggest that? ScummmmmmyAchilles in 478 wrote:At 311 I was just interested in showing that I wasn't inactive, so I addressed the immediate concerns that I saw. I don't see that as tunneling because I was just posting my thoughts on accusations that others have made.
Unrelated, but if JR is getting replaced, how is the new guy supposed to deal with the suspicion that JR has received. In essence, my question is, are our previous reads on JR valid even though JR is getting replaced for a new guy?
The worst of the personal stuff. What I thought had just been a nulltell grudge might have a bit more in it if KK is resorting to that. (although it was yet another irritating 'FEAR MY ACCUSATIONS' post from Zaz.Kublai in 574 wrote:ZazieR is the queen of bullshit and bad arguments
Looks like calling for reinforcement after a lukewarm reception to poorly-made case re: miller. Three question marks looks desperate, I *twitched*.ZazieR in 623 wrote:Oh, and Mastin, where are you???
Relevence? Did you stumble over it by luck or were you doing a meta? Links? This doens't feel right to me.ckool in 642 wrote:I just found something in a thread from another old game. Somebody (a mafia) was posting their mafia talk in the night and what was going through their heads during the day, and one of the things going through their head was:
"Don't pull a Kublai Khan and freak out about the fact that you're confirmed scum in the eyes of two players"
Erm... Don't some of you think for certain that he's scum?... And has he freaked out yet?.....
*twitch*MafiaMann in 645 wrote:I was trying to find out how what peoples opinions were on the miller thing and if it was worth pursuing. If everyone agreed it was not going to change anything then I wasnt going to wast peoples time with speculation on it.
You specifically fished for flavour first, and gave examples of flavour possibilities. When it didn't work and someone quesitons why you bring that up, you call them out as rolefishing. Scummy contradiction.Mastin in 660 wrote:Rolefishing. I will not answer this question.
Mastin in 670 wrote:Tunneling.
Utter crap. You think that rofl was tunneling in the 22nd post of the game? There was legitimate content around that was being debated and dismissing it as tunnelling is scummy, especially when you let Zaz off the hook for an epic tunnel that's lasted most of the game. You and Zaz obviously have a friendship of some form but there's a few indicators that it's cloaking a role-relationship as well.
It's OK because it's me. Beginning to be a familiar tune, Mastin.Mastin wrote:Testing a claimed miller to see if he slipped.
I refuse to say (hopefully I didn't already) whether he passed or failed on that flavor matter.
Ok, so ends the saga of Serial.
I don't have the time or the mental acuity to try to process all of the above information but a few things need to be said about the game overall.
1) FA and MafiaMann win the award for the most obvious relationship between roles. Once could well be a coincidence, but twice - no way.
2) Achilles wins scummiest and my vote.unvote if necessary, vote: AchillesI'd urge you all to read him in iso, it's not a pretty sight.
3) There are people coasting with a few, scummy posts. Empking's alt, (yes, I understand the meta but it's anti-town and needs to be discouraged) dvd, redith and Mufasa are all critical offenders and need to step up. More can be added to that list I'm sure, but I think all of those guys need to start posting and start posting content at that.
4) I think some of the more 'famous' players with the bigger egos and more to prove need to try to relax into the game a little and look for the scum, not for the intellectual fight. I honestly don't mean to offend, but I feel it's sidetracking the town away from really scummy targets so I feel like I have to bring it up.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
@Faraday
Your post was confused and vague. You didn't say 'The role claim is scummy but his play seems OK', you had about 5 lines of fluff, and given a relatively low content from you so far, it looked scummy to me.
My point 4 continues to be relevent to a number of people in the game. I think that players like (but not exclusively) Mastin, VP, KK, Zaz, Lowell and roflcopter are all using preconcieved ideas to further convince themselves that the people they are attacking are scum. I think there's little explanation for Zaz's constant persuit of a mediocre scumtell in KK's play aside from a personal vendetta and parts of their posts that get pretty heated confirm that. Ditto with Mastin, VP et al. Why didn't people notice stuff like the fact Achilles posts scummy stuff EVERY POST, or FA and MafiaMann's little conversations? Because those names aren't big, and nobody feels all high and mighty for trying to take them down. Scum are scum, people have to get over personal battles and the allure of the name and look for good old fasioned scumminess, in my opinion.
@Mastin:
Untrue - it's listed as a CeruleanMastin wrote:If I see people fail to state they're an "Emerald *role*" when they claim, they're scum. Look at the bodies we have--
Emerald Townie.
Emerald Jailkeeper.
Cerulean Doctor.
See the difference?MafiaDoctor.
That is significant because your entire argument is that Emerald specifies town in a larger way than just flavour. As soon as you see the word mafia there, you realise you could remove the colours completely and still have a cogent town vs non-town role.
If the word 'mafia' wasn't there, someone could claim doctor and it we would not be able to say whether it was a pro-town doc or not - in that case I'd agree, the emerald is crucial. But since the word mafia is there, it is immediately obvious, colour or not, that the person is either town or anti-town, making the colour merely flavour, and thus KK leaving it out originally much less significant.
Bolded for emphasis. Presumably mafia would also get a colour with their role, and even if they didn't they could easily tell from the bodies and the vanilla townie PM that a colour was involved.Mastin wrote:Which he "left out".
More like didn't get.
(As in, he's Mafia, faking miller.)
I think this argument is not only a foolish endeavour, it may be scummy in and of itself because it contains a desire to put deep significance on the 'flavour faction' of mafia - something I don't really care about. I would imagine that the people who care what colour faction a player flips are FAR more likely to be mafia than town, because it's significant to them whether it is one type of faction or another. I think that's a possible scumtell.
Meh, kinda have. You went through the 30 quotes I posted and found the ones pertaining to you and Rotten/KK only. I think I made some more decent points than that.Mastin wrote: I have not tunneled.
Yep, that's still a threat. In fact it's just a poor one, because lets face it, we'll cop walls of text anyway and if someone aims to get you lynched knowing they'll get lynched the next day, a good townie should still push through it and criticize you, whereas scum would be more fearful of their own life.Mastin wrote:This was not the case. Me simply stating facts.
NOBODY has ever gotten away from an accusation on me without later regretting it.
-They'll face walls of text
-IF they get me lynched, they'll often be lynched the next day
-And other such various regrets.
Still untrue. Something of content happened (ie not RVS - KK claims). You react to that and rofl finds you scummy. It was just about the only thing he could genuinely focus on, and noone else had done much at all, so it's impossible to tell whether he had tunnel vision on you or not.Mastin wrote:We were still in the RVS, SC.
Rofl was tunneling.
@ VP, roflcopter and all.
I'm not buying the wagon on Mastin. I take issue with some of what he says and some of his conclusions, but at the end of the day I count about 30,000 words from Mastin and I have trouble with about 5 sentences within them. It's just a poor reason for a lynch, I would suggest to you that if you are town, your motivation for voting him is an annoying style mixed with feelings of OMGUS.
- I agree about fishing for flavour.Here is why you should be voting for Mastin:
-He was fishing for flavor
-He is spamming the thread so you do not take time to read his posts
-He repeatedly asserts how pro-town he is and rather than defending he claims that most scumtells are null against him
-He has refused more than once to summarize any points against JR
-He has misrepped many many people in this thread
-He's OMGUSing anyone who disagrees with him
- Not a scum tell.
- That's a reason to believe the scumtells, not a scumtell in itself. I don't think ther'es much of a case that he's denying, even if the denying itself is poor.
- Not a scum tell.
- More evidence please. I think there's been very little misrepresentation.
- No he's not, I have disagreed with him and he's responded completely reasonably. I would suggest given a couple of posts ago you were dead sure of MafiaMann being scum, the person with OMGUS issues is yourself.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
@ all -
I understand my first content post was a massive post in a game of massive posts, but it was 28 long pages of scumtells summarised, so I'd ask everyone to go through that one at least, it's very condensed.
Even if you're voting someone else, or feel someone else to be scum, can you please have a look at players other than the big names. Specifically, at Achilles in iso or the relationship between FA and MafiaMann.
Of Achilles' iso posts, I find 0, 2, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12 all scummy. Some points I noticed:
- Easy targets
- Preoccupation with town approval
- Zero personal scumhunting, lots of piggybacking
- Attempting to completely dismiss case against JR due to him being replaced.
Achilles wrote:Unrelated, but if JR is getting replaced, how is the new guy supposed to deal with the suspicion that JR has received. In essence, my question is, are our previous reads on JR valid even though JR is getting replaced for a new guy?-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
- Location: Sydney Australia
@ VP - OK. Thanks for the effort, I'll put in some effort of my own and do an analysis of those points. I'll give you some idea on where I feel you make some good points and where I'm not convinced.
Points I think are strong scumtells:
4 - See my post 723 about who WOULD care about the faction.
23 - Good point. This is more what I'm looking for - a genuine misrepresentation of your position and attacking you for it.
37 - Yes, this was poor.
Points I think could possibly be weak scumtells:
5, 9, 11, 12, 18, 21, 22, 24, 34, 40
Points I think are not scumtells of any kind:
1, 2, 3, 6, 16, 20, 25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 38, 41, 42, 45
Points I think are irrelevent due to Mastin's meta:
7, 10, 14, 15, 17, 19, 35, 36, 39, 43, 44
Points I think are active misreps/scummy themselves:
8 - Even if no-one else had accused you of being scum, it still doesn't make his argument invalid, and in fact plenty of people have done so via their votes.
13 - You accuse Mastin of going with the flow and not drawing unnecessary attention? Sorry, what? His tunneling is a minor mistake that could be indicative of scummyness, your accusation reeks of a misrep.
26 - I agree with Mastin. Your post made it look very much like you thought KK was scum but had some doubts. It looked like fence sitting, certianly not like you believe the miller claim and are against a KK lynch.
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Please note just counting up how many are in each column like some kind of score card doesn't work because you can group them into similar ideas, which pads some areas and not others. The above is given as a rough idea of my mental state in reading the argument. Also, just because I think something is not a scum tell doesn't mean I agree with Mastin's point, I just don't think it was made deliberately falsely.
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So, here are the reasons why I'm (still) not on a Mastin lynch.
a) I still feel a good deal of the points against him are still born of a personal battle. I have used the word ego because I feel behind many of the main themes in this game are personal battles born elsewhere. I might be off-base on that, but that's how it seems to me.
Mastin's complete disregard for everyone's preferred method of reading the game is irritating, and his posts spam the forum, make it hard to catch up and hard to play. I agree with this. However, although it might be annoying, or even if it creates favourable conditions for scum, that DOES NOT make him scum THIS game. He posts these long posts every game and has an arm's length of games to prove it. This includes things like failure to summarise, being pedantic, having illogical scumtells and various other issues.
b) The sheer amount of his postings mean that there are always going to be things that come off poorly. He may occasionally make a bad argument or attack, but these weak slips are much less significant than with players who post less because of the possibility of noise over signal. If I post 100 words in my game and have 3 weak scumtells, that's significant. If I post 100,000 and have 3 weak scumtells, that's insignificant.
c) Mastin is scumhunting. Whether you feel he's concentrating on the right people or not, he's actively combing through the thread looking for scummy behaviour. He has made points about a number of different people and is clear about where his opinions lie. He is certainly not going with the easy wagons and trying to fly under the radar, like you say at one point, he's put himself and his theories at the forefront of discussion. These are people you do not lynch on D1, imo.
d) There are REALLY REALLY scummy alternatives. This is also what fuels my opinion that egos and reputations are dictating some of the attacks today. I've made clear who my suspects are and why, but even the fact that many of the things I've noticed haven't even been brought up suggests to me that some of the more active players around are tunnelled on someone else.
Whether or not I like Mastin's style, the key question for today is whether this person will flip scum, and my suspicion at the moment is that he will not.
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How sure are you that Mastin is scum? Did you have a look at Achilles or any of the others that I pointed out? (I do acknowledge your case on MafiaMann and found it quite convincing. Part of why I suspect OMGUS/personal reasons for your recent case against Mastin is that you dropped that case like it was hot.)-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2717
- Joined: March 27, 2009
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Wicked, in future, please catch up in the whole thread before asking questions like this. Your questions on page 30 were directed to someone else and were AFTER a long post in which I detailed my thoughts on the argument.Welcome. Please answer the questions that I asked VP earlier on page 30.
I lean towards believing Kublai, but predominantely, I don't think it'll be a problem. I simply can't imagine a claimed miller reaching lylo. He painted a big target on his back and I'm happy to let it be sorted out at night. Wasting a lynch on someone who is a dead man walking is a bad idea when we have scum to catch. If he'd claimed at L-1 it might be different, or claimed in D2 it might be different. As it is, it's the correct play to make for a mason, so I don't see a need to further push it.
Additionally, I think the people focusing on this issue seem to be doing it based on some kind of personal battle and I've found their arguments (and his responses) to be more often petty and vindictive than convincing. I'd like to see some more genuine, town-wide scumhunting, I think it's been sadly lacking this game.-
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Namttam - I felt your agreement with me about Achilles came rather out of the blue. You did have some discussion with him but never voted him and didn't exaclty declare him as scum (or scummy), or even analyse his posts much. I'm happy to have people agree with my case, but you made it sound as if you'd been making a case for ages and someone finally agreed with you, which can be a sneaky way of piggybacking.
I read you in iso looking for your thoughts on Achilles and noticed that throught the game you have been on both sides of the dominant issues. You've voted JR, then dropped the entire case completely when he was replaced and are now voting KK.
If you don't mind, could you answer:The JR wagon is useless when there is no JR. I was voting him to get him to talk more but with him gone there is no reason for this. I'm going to Unvote. Vote: Kublai Khan.
1) Can you explain why scummy things about VPs predecessor don't now carry on to VP?
2) Were you only voting him to get him to talk more or did you genuinely think he was scummy?
3) At what point in the game did you find the mason claim scummy/proven scum?-
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Not quite - I asked the question because there are usually a couple of people in that 'prepared to lynch' category, and I was wondering why you are focusing on him more than others (goes to personal/ego). But OK, you mentioned the other people you find scummy and why you prefer his wagon. I'll give you that he is having more of an influence on the game than the others, but I don't think their liklihood of being scum is equal at all, so my vote is remaining on Achilles.VP Baltar wrote: I feel certain enough to lynch him, and that is all that really matters.
Thanks, I fail. In return, I offer you a correction of 'jist' and 'jibberish', which should be 'gist' and 'gibberish' - I was just too polite to point them out!@SC, just to correct you a bit, I noticed above you keep saying "mason" when you mean to be saying "miller".-
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It's 4:30am and the only reason I'm still up is because I worked Saturday and have tomorrow off, so am stubbornly hanging about and not going to bed to make my only sleep in of the week awesome.
@VP - However, I just read your last post and wanted to clear up the posts -
#8 I didn't realise you were making a distinction between yourself and JR, fair enough.
#13 - the bit that I'm specifically referring to is:
I can't see how you can draw that conclusion from Mastin's play, despite the specific snippet you quote. It just doesn't fit.Sure sign of scum trying to go with the flow and not draw unnecessary attention.
#26 There's a timeline issue here, I think. SINCE making the 'not obv scum' post, you've been very clear about your position. Before that, not so much. It's possible you were still feeling out a side.
I'd ask people to remember I was filing those in loose categories. I think your posts have been pro-town overall, and you did make some points against Mastin that hit home for me.
@Nam:
^^ This. That's why I quoted that section in my original question to you. The two quotes above look like a total contradiction.VP wrote:Nam wrote:
1)They absolutely do carry over and I don't believe I ever implied that. While VP and Johnny are different people they have the same role.
Actually you did. It's in the post you directed me to:
Nam wrote:
The JR wagon is useless when there is no JR. I was voting him to get him to talk more but with him gone there is no reason for this.
You say the wagon is "useless" because JR is gone, but in your post above you say that all of the points against him still apply to me. If you really thought they still applied than you should have left your vote there.
@Kublai -
Meta. Same as Empking's utter non-participation. It might be irritating or anti-town, but it doesn't make them more or less likely to be scum.Second, how do you figure that Mastin's repeated insistence of how pro-town (or null) he is not to be a scum-tell?
@ Wicked:
Not quite - I'm saying that for any player you should balance the amount of dicey stuff they've written with the amount they've written overall. Something like half of Achilles' posts are seriously scummy. I think only a small percentage of what Mastin has written is scummy.Are you saying that since he posts so much, then he is likely to say something scummy once in a while?
This is a terribad question. Scumhunting is important and pro-town, possibly more than any other action. We need people who are actively and genuinely persuing scum in the town. Scumhunting makes you take sides and have a record of your actions, makes you likely to suffer votes against you, suspicion from people, be in the spotlight and be more likely to be night killed - a number of things that the scum are trying to avoid. And in addition, if it's genuine, it helps us win the game by catching and lynching scum. It's the single most important thing to be doing right now.If there really is more than one scum group and Mastin is a part of one of them, then who cares if he is scumhunting or not, because he could be trying to get rid of the other scum group.
If you don't care about scum hunting, what should we be doing?-
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A lot of your crumbing defies the point of a breadcrumb. A breadcrumb should be early and specific, in my opinion. The later it is, the more likely it could be scum preparing for an imminent claim. The less specific it is, the more likely it's scum keeping their options open for later. A good breadcrumb very specifically near the start of the game locks you into that role, so when you claim later it's immediately obvious that that is the only reasonable claim you could have made, not just the one that convineintly fits the situation at the time you're claiming it.
The ones in the RVS were a) in the RVS, which you tell us to dismiss as you joking around, and b) far too vague. You could claim anything you like and point to something there.
The later ones could well have been made in preparation of a claim given pressure on you was mounting. (ie you see you have to claim something, start mentioning roleblockers then a couple of posts later, you claim. )
There is the one about speculating quite specifically about KK and his night choices, and that's probably the most convincing.
Either way - no need to lynch a claimed rolebblocker. (EMERALD roleblocker zzz)
I'm going to join the MafiaMann wagon. I liked Achilles last response to me, and despite some disagreements thought it at least started to get him on the right track. MafiaMann on the other hand has looked scummy as anything over the recent Mastin wagon, to go with his earlier behaviour. Specifically, posts 715, 742-3, 819 and especially 800 recently, and earlier his false dialog with FA @ 256-265 and 390ish set off alarm bells for me. Finally, I found the following posts scummy, 273, 321, 357, 645.
You can find more elaboration on what I found scummy about these posts in my post @ 702, along with a fairly strong case presented by VP @ 643.
unvote Achilles, vote MafiaMann-
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Your response doesn't really address the concern. You felt MM was scummy enough for a vote, made a large case on him, then dropped it totally to vote Mastin. The wagon on Mastin falls over after a claim, so you go back to your main case. Then just as some people join your wagon (presumably a good thing if you genuinely think MM is scum) you switch your vote right off again.
Do you think Mufasa is scummier than MM? It looks to me like you are happy to have the appearance of doubting him but fail to want any pressure on him at all.
Look at the pressure you managed to exert on Mastin, contrast it with the pressure you've exerted on MM - 2 votes with unvotes soon after. You weren't afraid of people joining the Mastin bandwagon, nor were you afraid of their lack of reasons for joining it, nor were you concerned about the status of the deadline. What's changed with MM?
If I felt the need to comment on other parts of the game, I probably would have. Is there something you feel I'm missing or quiet on?I'm old now.-
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Baltar - it's not that your reasons are poor in isolation, it's that your behaviour has radically changed since the last wagon. You are a lot weaker on MM than you were on Mastin. And if that weren't odd enough, this is the SAME PERSON you started making a good case against and then abandoned despite some promising leads earlier in the thread.
a) You regarded the MM case as 'just as strong' as the Mastin case when questioned about how likely you think Mastin is to be scum.
So it's not due to an imbalance in the cases that you're treating them differently.VP in 754 wrote: And I do think the case on MafiaMann is quite convincing, but I think the one against Mastin is just as convincing.
b) You say that your most recent reason for moving off of MM is that people are joining without reason and there is a deadline approaching and we have time. But on Mastin's wagon, you seemed to care about neither of these issues.
VP in 791 wrote:KK I hope you don't replace out because I think Mastin is lynchable today and then everyone will be better off. I'm sure his scum partners are even considering lynching him at this point.
We're at 7 votes now, we only need four more. SC and anyone not voting Mastin, I ask you to use reason here. You can't honestly believe that Mastin is being effective at scumhunting or helping the town in any way. This matter is only going to resolve in either him or I being dead. Vote for whoever you think is acting more scummy and let's be done with these giant walls of back and forth that are making this game a drag.VP in 810 wrote:Inconsistency, ahoy! LAL! More Mastin votes, plz!VP in 718 wrote:Also, voting Mastin is pro-town.
It seems clear to me you had no eye on the deadline and were prepared to lynch straight away, and you actively encouraged people to jump on the bandwagon without applying reasoning.VP in 712 wrote:If you agree with these points please Unvote, Vote Mastin
Could the following people please explain whether or not you think Mastin is town based on the above points (not necessary if you simply vote):
c) It goes against your stated intentions about how you want to procede with the day, words that applied to Mastin but are forgotten when talking about MM (twice)
All of that adds up to treating players in a markedly different way, in fact, in stark contrast, I'd argue.VP in 844 wrote:There comes a point in a mafia game where you just have to pick a target and get that target lynched. Sure, some people hopped on the Mastin wagon without stating reasons, but in fairness what else were they going to say really? I gave a wealth of good reasons for him needing to be dead. I don't think there was a lot more to add. I'm sure there were some scum jumping on that wagon, but that doesn't mean I should stop a lynch from going forward on a person I think is likely scum. The fact that we likely have multiple mafia factions in this game means that almost every wagon until closer to endgame is going to have have scum hopping on it. All I can do is try to get my targets lynched and pay attention to voting patterns for analysis later.
My opinion on Mufasa is that he joins the arms-length long list of players in this game who turn up to post a sentence or two every now and then, often without decent reasons or much interaction with the game. I prefer the case on MafiaMann because I think there's more evidence against him and I think his reaction to the recent episode with Mastin was just as bad.-
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Even if I accepted everything you write here as truth, and there's no reason to assume that, it still doesn't answer my question. The fundamental part of my point was why are you treating MM and Mastin so differently? You seemed to have no interest in voting other suspicious players or providing pressure votes a couple of days ago - I say again, what has changed?VP wrote:Ok, so you agree that his reasoning is bad. The fact is that you're really buzz killing any kind of pressure that was being put on him to make him explain his actions, SC. This is really the point of my vote and it's useless now because you're sidetracking it into my reasoning for voting MM and Mastin. The fact is (which I was forced to state thanks to your questioning) that I am still am going to vote MM for today's lynch. Pressure votes don't mean anything if you say they are there for pressure. So thanks for that.I'm old now.-
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Mastin's playstyle and people not reading his posts explains why your attacks were longer and involved more content. They don't explain why you didn't attack/vote other people and it doesn't explain why you didn't care about deadlines/people joining without reason. After the 4th or so attempt at answering the question
Having completely different ways of attacking different players can obviously be a scum tell. They indicate that you are treating two people who may be scum differently, which can indicate inside knowledge on one rather than the other or different intentions towards one rather than the other.
Add to that the cases were made literally right next to each other on D1 and that you've dropped your case against mafiamann twice now and you have textbook distancing.I'm old now.-
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That's another non-answer because you aren't changing your style to effectively catch MM. Are you suggesting that your plan for catching MM out as scum is to accuse him and promptly unvote him twice today?Not really. Everyone approaches the game differently, and thus would require a different approach to catch scum. IMO, there aren't hard and fast rules for catching scum that would apply to every player on this site.
1) Hey - I'm voting him, not you. I still see him as scummier. I'm just noting things I find suspicious, especially when they take several replies to try to answer. But you were never concerned about people not having flipped when you questioned Mastin about buddying.Also, your charge of me distancing from MM is ridiculous for two reasons: 1) We have had no flips and know no ones alignment. 2) I am the person who brought the only substantial case against MM and have never said I would not lynch him today. I very much would.
2) I go by action, not whether or not you've declared you would or wouldn't lynch him. For all the reasons I've given you, it looks like you don't want to lynch him.I'm old now.-
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Sorry VP - I don't understand the first two points you made.
In response to your argument that each player needs to be attacked differently, I make the point that your change in style hasn't been to effectively target MafiaMann (then speculate on what might have been the reason for it.)VP wrote:Everyone approaches the game differently, and thus would require a different approach to catch scum. IMO, there aren't hard and fast rules for catching scum that would apply to every player on this site.
You then say that 1) it's only my opinion that you haven't changed your style to attack MafiaMann but also
2) that you aren't suggesting that your changing actions were part of a plan to catch MafiaMann.
My question is this - if your justification for changing attacking styles is that you should adapt when attacking each person and attack them differently, can you show how your change in styles when attacking MafiaMann is a more effective way to attack him than your attack on Mastin?
Your point about buddying is a fair one, that's a distinction between buddying and distancing that I hadn't considered. It's possible to buddy scum->town but not possible to distance any other way than scum->scum.
Getting less confortable with the lynch? How surprising, given just last post you 'very much would' like to lynch him. It's not like you've found quick and easy reasons to get off his case twice already in the thread.Your willingness to base your vote largely off my case and call me scummy at the same time continues to make me less and less comfortable with that lynch.
And as for my reasons, you'll find them already stated. Some are based on what you've written, some are not and either way - my problem is that you are making a strong case and not going through with it, which as we've just seen with Mastin is not like you, and you're a repeat offender when it comes to MM. I'm trying to hold you accountable to your own case.
SC wrote:MafiaMann on the other hand has looked scummy as anything over the recent Mastin wagon, to go with his earlier behaviour. Specifically, posts 715, 742-3, 819 and especially 800 recently, and earlier his false dialog with FA @ 256-265 and 390ish set off alarm bells for me. Finally, I found the following posts scummy, 273, 321, 357, 645.
You can find more elaboration on what I found scummy about these posts in my post @ 702, along with a fairly strong case presented by VP @ 643.
unvote Achilles, vote MafiaMann-
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Yeah, you're going to have to explain this one better, Namttam. No one's alignment is going to be proven, yet we're all going ot be wanting ot lynch someone. My point, (which I think we've done to death), was that he was overly soft on MM.I take issue with the fact that you seem to be saying that your goal is to lynch MM rather than to find out more about his alignment. I infer this from the bolded sections. The first you are saying that achieving a lynch means you are effective in going after a suspect. In the second you seem to say that you have the support of others in lynching MM so you don't have to push as hard since you can do it at your leisure. I don't think MM's alignment has been proven so I would question your motive in voting MM.
I'm not buying the wagon on rofl. He looks town to me.I'm old now.-
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Sorry KMD, I remembered you answered that question earlier, I just found it. Meh, gut. I can see plenty of things that would benefit scum - trying to suss out opinions, making dicey cases.. 357 is a good example but there's a history of it, imo.
And the ease of creating a wagon, well there were a number of lazy transfer votes but it's stalled a fair way from the pointy end. That and VP unvoted despite, according to him, being the main driver of the wagon. I'm suspicious because it's so hard to get even people who seem to suspect him to get the wagon to a decent level.I'm old now.-
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I'd hammer if I weren't already voting you.
Nice re-reading and catch. Pro-town.VP wrote: re: MM--the problem is that he is claiming V/LA until the 7th and he hasn't posted anywhere else on the site since his last post here. I still think he has been reasonably scummy enough that we can lynch him without worry, but I'm starting to doubt he is going to claim. If anyone on the wagon (or off I suppose) is uncomfortable with this, you need to speak up now and not expect a free pass tomorrow because 'we had a deadline and no other choice'.I'm old now.-
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Yep well, no surprise to see two mafia groups.
I'm going to go and re-read Zazie to see if I can see any links between players. Clearly there was a link between Mastin and herself with a bit of buddying going on. and aside from that she just pushed for a lynch on the claimed miller, which makes sense as scum. Perhaps it's worth having a look at those who were a little too convinced by her.
KK - no reaction to Zazie's death? The single person who pushed for your death more than any other dies? Perhaps you aren't surprised? Just becuase you specifically were blocked (if you were) doesn't mean if you're scum you couldn't have your buddies kill her.I'm old now.-
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Yes Hayker, look at the bottom of the page, and there's a drop down menu where you can select who you want to view.
How on earth have you been at the site for that long and not known that.. I use iso viewing every second day..
Kise totally had Zazie at post 232 or so.. Zazie's over the top defence about how she knew there were two scumgroups was obvscum.
Throughout the thread, her major focus definitely seems to be pushing the KK wagon. She defends cKool, buddies with Mastin and Kise, defends Rotten. She asks for a prod on Mufasa, which I thought was al ittle unusual at the time (other players ahdn't posted for ages beforehand IIRC but she only chose to prod Mufasa). Perhaps that indicates Vermillion's kill flavour?
This cKool this is suspect.
Post 343 she defends cKool against Mastin and wicked again, one of the few times she goes against Mastin.
Post 419
Post 420I''m positive that ckool had said this a few times before already. I think even in the post which was possibly his largest post so far. So why did you only point it out now?
Post 423But ckool strikes me as newbtown
More on posts 464, 520, 521, 618 and probably more. There's a big pattern of this defence and I don't see it anywhere else in her play.Quote:
HoS: ckool (it's evident why)
Even if this is so, an elaboration would be appreciated.
I'll do a re-read of cKool tomorrow and see what I can find. Would like ot hear your thoughts on things Mastin given you essentially claimed then disappeared ><I'm old now.-
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And only your eyes, Mastin...Mastin wrote:In my eyes, I am seeing evidence that further supports my theory of four killing factions with one of them being blocked.
3 kills, 3 flavours. You're assuming that if there's a 4th kill faction, they (and only they) have been stopped both times, when the alternative is that there are just 3 kill factions? Looking at the situation above, excepting ofr a lucky doc protect or jailkeeper or similar, the only real way that could happen is if both of your roleblocking manuevers hit home. Maybe have a look at the same evidence through someone else's eyes
Mind you, I'm not even sure how this dialog helps that much. I suppose if there were 4 killing factions and you blocked KK and lowell then you possibly found 2 scum, but that doesn't work if there were lucky docs or the like. At the moment, I'm going with Occham.I'm old now.-
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QED'd, bitches! Sorry, but that's not exactly hugely comforting evidence. How would you read him if he was scum?Based on what I recall from going over a few of his scum games, he tends to explain what he's doing more when he's scum.
Namttam - why the VP vote? Did Zazie's flip surprise you or influence your decision in any way?
Hayker - what questions has rofl not answered? Who are your suspects?
Mastin - Where did you go? You're officially under suspicion, which should mean you're getting your jollies off and writing pages upon pages of material.I'm old now.-
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How do you categorise his posts about KK, detailing why it's a bad idea to lynch the claimed miller. They are probably his most verbose contribution to the game, do you think that counts as explaining what he's doing? (not trying to get in your face, genuine question. I know rofl's meta hides his alignment but it's about time we looked at people like rofl, empking's alt, lowell etc who are coasting without much in the way of suspicion based on meta.)I'm old now.-
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OK content -
KMD - how did you not see a connection between cKool and Zazie when it was discussed right at the start of the day? Check out post 1041
What was impressive about VPs case to me was that it wasn't just drawing a link to Zazie, it used that coupled with his terrible posts about voting KK. He is always confused about KK, always confused about why he's voting KK. He looks absolutely like he's being led by Zazie, and puts the coaching and defending relationship he's had with her all game into context. It's perfectly clear to me that he was voting KK because Zazie was pushing so hard for it and he didn't really know what else.
In addition, did the Kise kill come out of the blue for anyone else? He didn't really do anything in the game, except he did manage to find both ckool and zazie scummy. Would be a perfect time to off him.
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rofl - I am finding the relationship between you and Xyl something ot keep an eye on. Xyl is more than ready to clear you on meta, gives us one idea of how we could not clear you (ie if you start explaining your actions more) and then, as far as I can tell, you start explaining your actions more and he says you're protown again. For example:
Xylthixlm wrote: Based on what I recall from going over a few of his scum games, he tends to explain what he's doing more when he's scum.
Those two seem to contradict each other. rofl actually posts some of what he's thinking and why for once in the game, and you latch onto it as being rofltown, which seems to be against your original point.Xylthixlm wrote:
^ this is town-roflcopter to my eyeroflcopter wrote:i'm still paranoid about people attempting to save mastin. however, i'm virtually positive baltar is town so his attempt to get the alternative wagon going isn't as unsettling as kmd's.
Even this post:
Things like holding back opinions or lurking more than normal seem to be exact opposites of explaining what he's doing.Xylthixlm wrote: If he was scum and not explaining what he's doing? I'd look for a few things. You need a high tolerance for suspicion to pull off that playstyle, so I'd look for evidence that he cares if people find his playstyle scummy. I'd also look for signs that he's holding back opinions or lurking more than normal. And I normally have some idea what he's thinking, so I'd get worried if I didn't have any.
This could just be a lost in translation thing, but I dont' like the relationship between Xyl and rofl. It looks like Xyl could clear anything based on an ill-defined meta read.
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Some things of note from Mastin's game as scum in Polygamist mafia:
He gets prodded multiple times, his activity wanes. That's definiteily similar to this game.
He OMGUS votes a bit
On the other hand,
He talks down policy votes, where he semi policy votes Kahn in this game.
He seems less over-the-top frustrated and intense in his posts, he seems more genuine in his scumhunting this game.
Overall, I think analysing this then analysing our game definitely hurts Mastin's meta argument, well worth a read.
At the moment though, cKool is the play of the day for me by a long shot.I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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I'd prefer him to follow this advice, but a claim is probably warranted at this time too.I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't be vigging on d0. You're just offing a random person, you've got much more chance to do harm than good. Plus, an SK doesn't affect balance greatly in a large game cos of the chance of mafia kills.
Having said that, I think mufasa was more likely to be a vig kill than an SK kill, and the reason for killing Konowa seems more vig-ly than SK-ly.
Could you go through your thought processes for why you killed Mufasa? And why are you accepting ideas from people in general about tonight, aren't you worried that scum will guide you in the wrong direction?
unvoteI'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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I think the thought of auto-vigging two people who agree ot be auto-vigged is probably not in the best interest of the town, given the only people who agree ot that are likely to be town.
What if we had ckool target mastin, and mastin roleblock him? That'd go some way to working out if anyone was lying.I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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Actually - that raises an interesting point.
We've already had one mafia doctor die, and we know there's two mafia groups. So unless the mafia groups are somehow imbalanced, which seems unlikely to me, there's another mafia doctor out there. Which means it's entirely likely that rofl is putting forward this idea knowing he has protection at night.
I'm glad my lack of intelligence is a town tellSerialClergyman is town. Bad idea, but he's town.I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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*DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING*
Time's up.
Mastin's had stacks of time to start posting properly, he did lie about when he came back (he's been posting like mad in jungle mafia), once he claimed and Zazie died he's gone completely silent when he is under great suspicion, something that's supposed to fire him up and get him involved with the game. Too much time, too many chances.
vote: MastinI'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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Firstly a disclaimer: I can't post as much content as I have been due to lack of time and access.
I'll give some thoughts over the last 4 or 5 pages.
I think rofl didn't bus. He's either vermillon or none. I continue ot think that if one scum faction has a doctor, there's a better-than-usual chance that the other one will have one as well, and rofl could well have made that gambit knowing he had a doc (or a roleblocker) in reserve to make sure he didn't die.
Kmd's U-turn on rofl has me utterly confused. I've never seen someone make that kind of extreme flip. Kmd - you very much glazed over your reason for your transformation - perhaps it's not significant to you but it's really significant to us. Could you please post the full paragraph you removed and point out the bad logic? At the moment, you've gone form being prepared to die yourself for a chance to get rofl killed to ignoring that he was on both wagons in your bandwagon analysis.
I think Hayker's Sucks To Be Us is a minor point, but it's unusual for someone with a low activity to suddenly be there at the ready at the start of D3.
I think people who are deciding which class of scum to lynch are really pushing their own ability to find scum. Either that or they're just a hell of a lot better than me at it. If I was sure that the person I was targeting was scum I'd lynch them, regardless of which faction they belong to. And as much as they could cross-kill, so could they not - the longer we have 2 scum groups against us, the longer we lose an extra person each night. In fact, as I write this I'm more and more suspicious of those who are pushing this line - I'd prefer to have the time to make more lynches than hope that the mafia get it right and kill their opposing faction.
I think rofl mentioning it is a null tell, but I think all of the people that accepted it without actually thinking about it could well be vermillion trying to distance themselved from his theory.
I read molestargazer's post attacking those on the mastin wagon as pro-town but misguided.
KMD mentions empking being mufasa's neighbor in a weird way. It's not really relevent or insightful or does anything significant at all. It just didn't sit well with me.
I did a brief run through of VPs posts to try to find a breadcrumbed investigation but couldn't, I'll have another look when I get a chance though.
I think the little wagon on rofl yesterday has a good chance of finding scum. I'm not ruling out rofl from being scum, but I think that the last cerulean could well try to use his gambit as a reason to attack him (you're prepared to die via vig so we're going to kill you is a damn stupid argument). Of the two, mosestargazer made his point loudly and clearly and put his money where his mouth is, which I have always found pro-town. Namttam however was pretty weasly, and switched after a poor case on VP he had been riding since the day before, when he took up some reasoning of mine against VP.
That's enough to earn my vote.vote NamttamI'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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Wicked, asking for 5 scum suspects is over the top, given it's most likely that there's only 3 scum left in the game. At the moment I think we can afford to be a little more considered than another spray and pray list.
To give you an idea, I think Namtam is the scummiest based on his own posting (not looking at gamestate.) His posts ride on other people's work, which is something I've never liked, and his targets have been suspicious. From the latter stages of D1 - He voted KK for much of D1, then VP Baltar at the end of D1 and through D2 until he voted rofl in the same post he says he's convinced ckool is scum and never unvotes. Each time he voted he gives either little reason or uses the reasons other people have made. I'm going to re-read him further when I have some more mafia time.
I would be extremely surprised if at least 1 of KMD, rofl and Xyl were not scum. I think each of those players are interacting with each other in such a way that at least one of them is looking to manipulate to gain an advantage. I think if rofl is scum he would be vermillion, and that would make Xyl probably vermillion with him. I explained why I think there may be a link between those two on D2, but essentially it's due to Xyl taking suspicion off rofl via a meta argument that he then seemed to contradict. KMD has done a few things to tweak my radar, some of which I posted in the post above (U-turn on rofl + mentioning neighbor for zero reason).
I have a lot of nulls due to meta or lurking. I think that Achilles is being prodded as we speak and could well be replaced. Lowell's meta excuses his low post count/content but makes a read hard.
Why do you ask, Wicked?I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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Ok, so at the moment we have the following roles claimed or discovered:
Jailkeeper
Cop
Vig
Neighbor 1a
Neighbor 1b
Neighbor 2a
Neighbor 2b
Mason A
Mason B
That's quite a few roles, let alone whatever other roles are out there. However, it isn't absolutely impossible, especially given that of the 3 scum we've caught, 2 of them had a power role. So we should expect the scum to be pretty powerful. Also, it's probable we don't have a doctor because ckool died, unless wicked drew protection with his 'innocent verdict' comment.
Is it worth asking for the other neighbor to claim? It won't tell us anything about alignment or roles at all, because the whole point about neighbors are that they are unconfirmed, but it will confirm mole's story that he was a neighbor, and eliminiate the possibility that mufasa and empking were neighbors and whether mole is trying to coast by on his claim.
But then, since neighbors are unconfirmed, it doesn't make sense for mole to make a fake claim that doesn't even save his bacon.
I'll give you my whole thinking - My suspicion is that if there are 3 mason-like roles, and 2 of them are called neighbors, unless that's a very arbitrary balancing issue, I suspect at least 1 of the 4 neighbors to be mafia. Hence the whole point of the setup - some are neighbors so that the alignments don't have to be confirmed, so that one of them can be mafia.
The problems with this theory - almost untestable, and doesn't explain how it would work with two mafia groups. IE it would give one group an advantage (maybe vermillion? Because cerulean already have two pretty strong power roles?). But that throws out the 'mafia groups have the same setup' theory.
In short, about the claims - I think it's possible we have 2x neighbors and 1x masons but I suspect one of the neighbors to have scum in the pair. If we get a claim from the remaining neighbor - that doesn't help scum, but it will confirm there being 2 sets and we can then have a look and see if one of the remaining neighbors look particularly scummy.I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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rofl - I had a look at the selective scumhunting and found it to be an exact description of your play...
wiki wrote:players who focus on a specific scum faction or factions in a game with multiple known scum factions are likely to be scum themselves
As poster boy for the 'lets focus on one scum group' philosophy, how does this not apply to yourself even more?or 2) a player all-but-ignores a specific scum faction or factions when scumhunting. Case 1) is a weak tell, Case 2) is fairly strong.
I agree to a degree about Xyl, but the points that get me more than the emoticon defence or selective scumhunting are the logical issues, especially the logic that went 'Namttam is scummy with Mastin therefore he's Vermillion scum' - 'Mastin wasn't Vermillion' - 'Yeah but if Wicked is Cerulean, Namttam must be Vermillon'. That whole logical progression was rubbish.I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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rofl - I agree totally with everything you posted but I don't feel it answers the question.
The scumtell you pointed us to says that people who focus on one group exclusively are likely to be scum.
You have made no secret that you are focusing on one group exclusively.
Why should I not think you scummy based on the tell you yourself are using?I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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Ah, fair enough. I take your point(s).
I'm not sure I agree with you about the strategic consequences, certianly that it's not cut and dried. If we assume there's only 1 blue scum to go, then that's 1 less night kill if we lynch him, and that's therefore more lynches we get to make. As I said earlier, I'd prefer to have more chances to lynch scum than hoping that the scum cross kill each other.
What do you think about the neighbor issue? Do you think there's a liklihood of scum within the 2 neighbor pairings (provided there are 2)?I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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You have to admit that claiming a role that doesn't even prevent him from being scum completely out of the blue is pretty inexplicable. I tend to believe him just because I can't imagine why he would have fakeclaimed at that time.WTF? I might believe his neighbor claim if a 4th neighbor came out of the woodworks, but to take it at face value? No way.
I don't understand this at all. Perhaps it's just me being thick, but why can't rofl just be posting his scummiest -> towniest list? Obviously if he's scum he's be lying..? And it's not like any of the people he calls scum are 'confirmed'...I'd like to point out that none of these three are confirmed town by a long shot. I understand you've got your whole "scum will target town-confirmed people" strategy going, but what's stopping you from being Vermillion and pushing your scumbuddies as confirmed? Or being Cerulean and buddying up to people to try to sway their votes?
Xyl - there's actually a lot more than you're giving credit for, I think. What about the logical inconsistency in your view of the namttam case?I'm old now.-
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SerialClergyman Mafia Scum
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