Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[Namttam]

Finally caught up. I was afraid Mastin would come back and start posting again before I finished.

Mastin's wall of text annoys me to no end but there is nothing inherently scummy about it. Since it is his MO it is a null tell. At least it has sparked discussion rather quickly. Dissecting his posts, it is mostly fluff but there is some scum hunting buried in there. I'll consider him pro-town for now.

rolfcopter is tunneling. I have no problem with this. I do have a problem with his citing of single cases to prove his points on tunneling and scum calling. Furthermore, there are differing viewpoints on the miller roleclaim so there is no reason to quash the debate. Anytime players want to make a stand on a topic provides information for the town to work with. Leaning scum.

Hayker opens by committing and pointing out his own scumtell. He takes issue with rolf's quick push from RVS even while complimenting rolf's reasoning. RVS is necessary to spark discussion but with Mastin around RVS doesn't need to be too long. There was already plenty to comment on. This is no reason to believe a player to be scum and Hayker should move on. He as made enough posts without moving beyond this initial issue and for that I

Vote: Hayker

.

Working my way forward, more coming.

[Namttam]

Johnny Rotten's last post is a terrible one. Advocating the lynch of a player you don't think is scum is wrong. Furthermore, he holds off on voting on it because he wants to hear how others feel is fear of commitment, which both interferes with forming lasting relationships and is a scum tell.

Achilles is likely going to be lurking.

MafiaMann is having a ScumDay! But in addition to that he seems preoccupied with theorizing about the game setup. May try to active lurk. His response to ckool's "lol" tell and his hesitance to get involved with scum hunting support this.

[Namttam]

Because I hadn't posted for a day I become a lurker? I'm apologize if working full time interferes with the game. If it is really that big a concern you can request my replacement.

I'm going to

Unvote. Vote: Johnny Rotten

. First, for not pulling the trigger and voting for Mastin. Second, for suggesting that lynching a townie is a good thing for a town. It makes much more sense to be scum hunting and lynching the most suspicious players instead of the most distracting. Third, if Mastin was the talk of the day then why just ask for more people to comment on him, why not raise some new questions? Fourth, suggesting voting is a scum tell, you specify the early stages of the game but I think that doesn't make the statement anymore valid. And finally... you used "lol" even after it was specifically mentioned as a scum tell in this game.

[Namttam]

But then came this:

And finally... you used "lol" even after it was specifically mentioned as a scum tell in this game.

Explain this comment now.

This comment was entirely joking. I had actually intended to explicitly state that but figured that leaving it in would cause people to reread and re-evaluate my other reasons. I don't agree that "lol"ing is a scum tell, it was merely a reference to ckool's earlier post.

This post makes no sense. If you spent that much time catching up why would you only comment on reveillark's post. You first echo the criticism of calling people lurkers after only 2 days, which isn't really taking a stand on anything. Next you advocate an absurd plan of action. I find fault with both the idea of the cop declaring himself and gambling on protection just to announce they know their sanity as well as your plan forcing the night action of two PR's that may not even exist. Finally you make a face a Mastin.

FoS: dvdkid13

If you are going to spend the time to be "active" in the game express some actual opinions.

[Namttam]

Yes, I'd also like if someone could summarize the arguments against JR. I don't remember reading anything from him that seemed blatantly scummy, but I guess I might be forgetting something.

I'm going to

Unvote. Vote: Johnny Rotten

. First, for not pulling the trigger and voting for Mastin. Second, for suggesting that lynching a townie is a good thing for a town. It makes much more sense to be scum hunting and lynching the most suspicious players instead of the most distracting. Third, if Mastin was the talk of the day then why just ask for more people to comment on him, why not raise some new questions? Fourth, suggesting voting is a scum tell, you specify the early stages of the game but I think that doesn't make the statement anymore valid.

(This rendition leaves off the inclusion of the "lol" tell)

@Hayker- I'm curious why you ignored this post and I had to answer the question.

[Namttam]

Fourth, suggesting voting is a scum tell, you specify the early stages of the game but I think that doesn't make the statement anymore valid.

4th seems scummy but could you state what post you were referring to?

This one and this one.
If you ever want to find post by a certain player scroll to the bottom of the page and where it say display posts by, select the player you are looking for.

So are you tunneling?

At 311 I was just interested in showing that I wasn't inactive, so I addressed the immediate concerns that I saw. I don't see that as tunneling because I was just posting

my thoughts on accusations that others have made.

Unrelated, but if JR is getting replaced, how is the new guy supposed to deal with the suspicion that JR has received. In essence, my question is, are our previous reads on JR valid even though JR is getting replaced for a new guy?

Bold inserted by me. So whos actions are you actually suspicious of? Is there no one that you feel isn't getting enough attention? What scum tells did you pick up on from ckool?(referencing post 409)

[Namttam]

As a policy I haven't read (nor will I) any of mastin's inane long posts. If anything of import happens in them, I'll rely on others to convey it. I'm torn between voting him or fallen, but for now I'll

vote fallen

How can you have an accurate reading on mastin if you haven't read his posts?

In response to post 494. True, but there is such a thing as noobscum, who could very well be trying to spread suspicion in this way. Also, your attack on ckool isn't that strong. You appear to be basing your entire opinion on a single exchange. What about the rest of the game? ckool hasn't done anything else that weighs one way or another? Also, ckool answers the accusations against him before saying he is going to stop talking. What do you think of those responses and the initial accusations? Your final reason weak. He specifically says that others turned it into him cracking under pressure. Your other options fail to express what others were implying about him.

[Namttam]

As a policy I haven't read (nor will I) any of mastin's inane long posts. If anything of import happens in them, I'll rely on others to convey it. I'm torn between voting him or fallen, but for now I'll

vote fallen

How can you have an accurate reading on mastin if you haven't read his posts?

Don't make me have to quote it again.

Now Achilles is gone too. *off-topic*It always seems like the people I am curious about disappear, just in this game I already lost JR. I think people flaking is my greatest annoyance with playing mafia online.***

The JR wagon is useless when there is no JR. I was voting him to get him to talk more but with him gone there is no reason for this. I'm going to

Unvote. Vote: Kublai Khan.

KK responses to Zaz's questioning make's this an easy decision. Why would a resent PM clarify his role if he already had it?

My Role PM says Emerald Miller. I assumed that if I was a death miller (or other miller variant), then iamausername would have told me. But if you insist, I'll double check with iamausername.

Also, what did the mod say about your question you said you''d ask him?

He re-sent my role PM.

What question did you ask him?

I asked if he could clarify what kind of miller I was (i.e. do I turn up as scum upon death in addition to showing up scum in investigations).

The first quote shows that KK already had the PM, the second shows that the answer to the question(will I turn up as scum at death?) was already in the role PM. If this was true then there would have been no need to ask for more information.

[Namttam]

2) Achilles wins scummiest and my vote.

unvote if necessary, vote: Achilles

I'd urge you all to read him in iso, it's not a pretty sight.

Thank you, I'm glad someone else has noticed this.

Could the following people please explain whether or not you think Mastin is town based on the above points (not necessary if you simply vote)

Unvote. Vote: VP Baltar

(there is your answer)

Unvote. Vote: Kublai Khan

. Proven scum. If you don't know why go read my logic in a previous post.

[Namttam]

2) Achilles wins scummiest and my vote. unvote if necessary, vote: Achilles I'd urge you all to read him in iso, it's not a pretty sight.

Thank you, I'm glad someone else has noticed this.

If he's the scummiest, why are you not voting him?

Also, explain why Mastin is town...you failed to do so?

When did I say he was the scummiest? I believe the proven scum is a better vote than someone who is only likely to be scum. I was merely acknowledging that somebody else has finally taken an interest in Achilles.

I did exactly as you asked.

Could the following people please explain whether or not you think Mastin is town based on the above points (

not necessary if you simply vote

)

I voted for you to show my disapproval of your argument and your tactics, no explanation necessary(except you immediately asked for one).

You don't need to call for anyone to summarize the reasons they found Johnny scummy. You already read through topic, I believe you would have taken note of any arguments against the person you were replacing. If people really had questions about Johnny's play for you they would ask. I personally never had any questions for him, I just wanted him to talk more. His behavior was suspicious and if he talked more it was likely I would get a better feel about whether he was scum or not. Now that you are here(and posting plentifully), I am getting plenty of information about you and the role which you share with Johnny.

Why don't you think KK is scum? You can easily find my argument, what do you think of it.

[Namttam]

Why don't you think KK is scum?

I think I have clearly stated my reasons, but to sum them up for you:

-He claimed miller in his first post, a general sign of town, especially in a game which likely has multiple killing factions.
-The case against him is very weak and has lots of people sheeping onto it because it's easy
-He hasn't done very much that is scummy. This is clearly shown by people only attacking him over the miller claim, even though many people said they were going to disregard it and judge him based on his actions (though I would like to see him scum hunt a bit more rather than just defending against Zazie and Mastin).

Why don't you think Mastin is scum?

Two things about KK. Point out the sheep, other than ckool who I would agree with you about. Explain to me how this is not a solid case that KK was lying about his claim.

Mastin could be scum. Some of your points do have merit,i.e. his parsing has allowed him make some things appear scummier than they were. However, having been in the game for a short while, you are making yourself guilty of misrepping just as you accused him of doing(see post 749 before you deny it). More over, your appeal to other players dislike of mastin's post style is a incredibly suspicious play. You are using it to further your desire to get him lynched because your case is not as strong as you would like. I would vote for you before I vote for Mastin, however I'm leaving my vote on KK because I believe my logic is solid.

[Namttam]

Namttam - I felt your agreement with me about Achilles came rather out of the blue. You did have some discussion with him but never voted him and didn't exaclty declare him as scum (or scummy), or even analyse his posts much. I'm happy to have people agree with my case, but you made it sound as if you'd been making a case for ages and someone finally agreed with you, which can be a sneaky way of piggybacking.

I read you in iso looking for your thoughts on Achilles and noticed that throught the game you have been on both sides of the dominant issues. You've voted JR, then dropped the entire case completely when he was replaced and are now voting KK.

The JR wagon is useless when there is no JR. I was voting him to get him to talk more but with him gone there is no reason for this. I'm going to Unvote. Vote: Kublai Khan.

If you don't mind, could you answer:
1) Can you explain why scummy things about VPs predecessor don't now carry on to VP?
2) Were you only voting him to get him to talk more or did you genuinely think he was scummy?
3) At what point in the game did you find the mason claim scummy/proven scum?

*note I just lost this whole post and am now retyping it*

1)They absolutely do carry over and I don't believe I ever implied that. While VP and Johnny are different people they have the same role.
2)I don't focus on people unless I find them at least suspicious. I voted for him to apply more pressure to him and get him to talk more because I thought he might be scum. With more information I could get a better reading on him and hopefully find out if he was scum. Vp has been plenty active and is providing lots of information so I switched over to the person I find 100% scum.
3)I never really thought that the flavor argument was very convincing. Not enough to make me sure that KK was scum. Sure it was suspicious but others were doing a great job persuing that line of thought and I didn't think me jumping on the wagon would accomplish much since he was already under alot of pressure. I stated earlier(and linked to it in my last post) that when KK was talking about what he asked the mod and the response he got was when I saw found him to be scum. He asked the mod when I die will I turn up town, in response the mod resent his role PM. It had already been established that KK had his role PM and that information was not in it. So there is an inconsistency with the mod resending the PM to answer the question. The way to resolve this is by concluding that KK was lying about his role claim.

In response to the beginning of your post, as I stated earlier I don't focus on a player unless I find them a little suspicious. My agreement with your statement came from the fact that it would surely gather more information from Achilles who I was suspicious of.

My JR vote- I was the second legitimate vote on JR(Kise's was random). I explained my reasons when voting for him, one of the few who did so, along with the unspoken reason of searching for more information.

My KK vote- My reason for voting KK is different than the flavor reason as I mentioned. I believe my case proves KK lied about his claim and he should be lynched.

[Namttam]

Last post I promise. That is already four people responding to VP's push on Mastin. Three of which did not post any reasons,(MM kinda did but seemed to imply he was voting for his post style). If anyone is trying to take advantage of sheep it is VP. Encouraging voting without reasons encourages play which provides little information, and is definitely not a town move.

[Namttam]

@Nattam (762): I've already answered your case against me here, which you've never responded to or acknowledged. Also, do me a favor and respond to roflcopter's post 59 (reposted as 758).

Nothing to respond to. I still find you lying to be a more logical conclusion than the mod deciding you don't deserve a direct answer to the question about whether you will flip town or not. If the mod truly sent you back your role PM then your answer would have been there. Since you already had the PM and the still asked the question I think you lied about having the role PM, in other words you claimed miller when you are not actually the miller.

In regards to rolf's post. I admit I have never played in a game this large but that won't stop my from voting for you when your slip makes you scum. I'd rather not rely on killing role's to target the players I want them to.

[Namttam]

Explain to me how this is not a solid case that KK was lying about his claim.

You mean the fact that he claimed Emerald miller and then some players badgered him into asking the mod for more specifics? To the best of my recollection he never said anything along the lines of 'when I die I will flip town'. You are implying in your case that he was saying this by claiming Emerald miller, which isn't really the case. If you can quote where he said definitively that his role PM stated what his flip would be before he was badgered into asking the mod, then I would have to agree with you. Like I said, however, if my memory is right, that did not happen. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

That is not my logic at all. What I am saying is that since KK asked the mod to answer whether he would flip town or scum and the mod resent his role PM, then the information would be in the PM. However, since he already had the PM then there would have no need to ask the question since he had the answer. Whether he claimed he would turn up town or not is irrelevant to the argument. So no I do not understand where you are coming from.

More over, your appeal to other players dislike of mastin's post style is a incredibly suspicious play. You are using it to further your desire to get him lynched because your case is not as strong as you would like. I would vote for you before I vote for Mastin, however I'm leaving my vote on KK because I believe my logic is solid.

I believe my case is plenty solid. Even if you don't agree with every point I've made against him, they are still abundant like the stars in the sky. I mean, I was only analyzing 2 posts out of everything he has said in this game and came up with that much stuff. How much scummy behavior would it really take before you lynch somebody? The post you directed me to only made one point against KK, and I think even that can be logically explained. I realize I'm coming on very strong with this case, but I feel that this is the only way people are going to listen.

Was it you who used the shotgun analogy? Throwing out of bunch of points, some of which are scummy and others which are not at all doesn't make your case stronger. It makes you more suspicious. You avoided the issue I was questioning which was you asking people to vote because Mastin's posts are long.

1)They absolutely do carry over and I don't believe I ever implied that. While VP and Johnny are different people they have the same role.

Actually you did. It's in the post you directed me to:

The JR wagon is useless when there is no JR. I was voting him to get him to talk more but with him gone there is no reason for this.

You say the wagon is "useless" because JR is gone, but in your post above you say that all of the points against him still apply to me. If you really thought they still applied than you should have left your vote there.

I address this to you and Clergy since he quoted it as well. I was voting for JR because he was suspicious and I wanted him to talk more. You showed up and I unvoted you and switched my vote to KK. I removed my vote from you not because I don't suspect you anymore, but because you were talking plenty(having already posted 7 times and giving appearance that you were going to be posting more). I would be able to decide later if you were scum by the information you were providing in those posts. I only had suspicions about JR so there was no reason to keep voting you when I felt KK was a solid case.

If anyone is trying to take advantage of sheep it is VP. Encouraging voting without reasons encourages play which provides little information, and is definitely not a town move.

Yes, I surely am using my powers of hypnosis over other players.

You can't blame me if they don't post reasons

(though I am pretty sure I have thoroughly covered them).

Could the following people please explain whether or not you think Mastin is town based on the above points

(not necessary if you simply vote)

Yes, Yes I think I can blame you.


Last post for today, I'll be back tomorrow night. Probably around this time.

[Namttam]

Mastin could be scum. Some of your points do have merit,i.e. his parsing has allowed him make some things appear scummier than they were. However, having been in the game for a short while, you are making yourself guilty of misrepping just as you accused him of doing(see post 749 before you deny it). More over, your appeal to other players dislike of mastin's post style is a incredibly suspicious play. You are using it to further your desire to get him lynched because your case is not as strong as you would like. I would vote for you before I vote for Mastin, however I'm leaving my vote on KK because I believe my logic is solid.

In other words, you think the people voting for Mastin are doing it mostly because his posts are annoying? Possibly, but what's wrong with the points against him that have already been provided?

Yes. I believe Mastin has done more than an adequate job of countering most of those points which would actual make me vote for him. I believe their are better lynch targets than him.

I don't focus on people unless I find them at least suspicious. I voted for him to apply more pressure to him and get him to talk more because I thought he might be scum. With more information I could get a better reading on him and hopefully find out if he was scum. Vp has been plenty active and is providing lots of information so I switched over to the person I find 100% scum.

If you thought Khan was 100% scum, then why weren't you voting him before?

Check the time stamps before you ask a question like this please. If you'll notice, my vote on KK comes in my first post following the exchange which convinced me he was scum. KK's post is 561 on page 22 and my vote is post 638 on page 26. You can check my posts in iso to confirm that was my first post since his.

Last post I promise. That is already four people responding to VP's push on Mastin. Three of which did not post any reasons,(MM kinda did but seemed to imply he was voting for his post style). If anyone is trying to take advantage of sheep it is VP. Encouraging voting

without reasons

encourages play which provides little information, and is definitely not a town move.

How has VP not given reasons? I think you missed post # 746.

Ummm, not at all what I meant. I was referring to the end of post #712.

Could the following people please explain whether or not you think Mastin is town based on the above points (not necessary if you simply vote)

The little part at the end is encouraging people to vote without giving reasons, simply asking them to join the Mastin wagon. I was pointing out that players were actually heeding said call and voting without giving reason which was a direct result of what VP said.

[Namttam]

Also, the following people need to post something of substance: Empking, Lowell, dvdkid13, fallen angel, Faraday, Hayker, Namttam, Redith, roflcopter, and Kise.

I take a day off from posting and am called out for it.

It seems like either no one agrees that KK is obvscum or they feel like hoping a NK is used on him. Since this is the case I'll reluctantly move on.

Unvote. Vote: VP Baltar

. SC already hit the nail on the head. I was suspicious of your play when you were pushing your Mastin wagon. Now your inconsistency in behavior towards your MM wagon is suspicious as well. You then side step this issue rather than addressing it with this post.

Ok, so you agree that his reasoning is bad. The fact is that you're really buzz killing any kind of pressure that was being put on him to make him explain his actions, SC. This is really the point of my vote and it's useless now because you're sidetracking it into my reasoning for voting MM and Mastin. The fact is (which I was forced to state thanks to your questioning) that I am still am going to vote MM for today's lynch. Pressure votes don't mean anything if you say they are there for pressure. So thanks for that.

That argument is ridiculous. Fact is you didn't add anything new against MafiaMann when you switched your vote to him and afterwards. Pressure does something if you are asking questions and looking for responses, which you gave no indication of doing. That entire post was just you trying sidestep the issue which SC raised.

[Namttam]

Pressure does something if you are asking questions and looking for responses, which you gave no indication of doing.

So you would say I asked no questions to Mufasa? Sure you want to stand by that one?

Wow apologies for that. I was actually talking about your previous vote on MM. I admit you did ask questions to Mufasa and the pressure vote in that case makes sense. However there is still a problem with your view on questions.

@ SC--well I think I explained my reasoning for getting off the MM wagon for now. The fact is we have 5+ days until deadline and judging from how fast people where joining it without saying much, I would rather unvote for now and come back to it. My main problem is that no one is asking him any questions or really hashing out points against him, but is just going 'I agree with Baltar, let's kill him'.

You state that you don't like how no one was asking any question of MM when you yourself didn't. You reposted a case which MM had already responded to so you hadn't really raised anything new for MM to respond to either.

[Namttam]

Proven scum. If you don't know why go read my logic in a previous post.

Proven? I had a town read on you early, but this is one of a few twitches I've had concerning you.

I still haven't heard a reasonable alternative for my proof(logical in this case) so I will continue to believe he is scum. At this point I've only changed my vote due to the public opinion that town shouldn't lynch a claimed miller because they likely won't live until end game, so it can be better used elsewhere.

I was stating that that it was your opinion that my going after him was ineffective. I would disagree with this.

I got him to L-3 in a matter of about a day.

Second, I was saying what you implying I did by unvoting him was inaccurate. The fact is that people are very comfortable with a MM lynch THANKS TO MY CASE.

I can return my vote there at will and he will likely be lynched.

That wasn't necessarily going to be the case with Mastin. I'm not sure what you dont' understand about that.

I take issue with the fact that you seem to be saying that your goal is to lynch MM rather than to find out more about his alignment. I infer this from the bolded sections. The first you are saying that achieving a lynch means you are effective in going after a suspect. In the second you seem to say that you have the support of others in lynching MM so you don't have to push as hard since you can do it at your leisure. I don't think MM's alignment has been proven so I would question your motive in voting MM.

[Namttam]

Please refer to post 960. Are you really not reading the thread that closely or are you just hoping to catch on to substantial sooner or later? Seems like every time you post you have some half-cocked argument against me that is quickly shot down.

My motive in voting MM is that he looks scummy to me. I've stated many reasons why...more than most everyone else...soooo, why do you think my motives are the most suspect?

I saw that you had asked MM questions however I wasn't commenting on that fact. I was commenting on the exchange and actions you had taken before that post. I had already called you out on not questioning MM prior to that post so I can't be sure if you honestly care to know more about MM or were merely responding to post.

Proven? I had a town read on you early, but this is one of a few twitches I've had concerning you.

I still haven't heard a reasonable alternative for my proof(logical in this case) so I will continue to believe he is scum. At this point I've only changed my vote due to the public opinion that town shouldn't lynch a claimed miller because they likely won't live until end game, so it can be better used elsewhere.

I don't like how you think that a lack of response is definite proof of a person's being scum. Sure, it's not good. But it's not conclusive either.

Not what I was saying. I think my reasoning itself is the definite proof. The fact that I haven't heard a convincing response is why I'm continuing to believe my reasoning.

[Namttam]

Vote: VP Baltar

[Namttam]

Phail.

Vote: VP Baltar

[Namttam]

Namttam - why the VP vote? Did Zazie's flip surprise you or influence your decision in any way?

Continuation, I voted for today just like I voted him yesterday, I don't like his actions.
The flip didn't influence my decision at all and it did surprise me. I hadn't had the chance to read Zaz in ISO when I last posted but now I have.

Namtam--stop being lazy. your case sucked yesterday and it continues to. Also, who are your suspects now that we have another scum flip?

Just because my case sucks doesn't make you town. You got me on the lazy part though, I couldn't find the time for this game during the week but I'm caught up now. The obvious suspect from the flip is ckool as everyone and their mother has realized. I've never played with Zaz before so I don't know if she typically watches out for her partners or would tend to try to buddy with town. I had a town reading on ckool before the flip so I would lean toward the latter explanation being true. However when you take into account ckool's behavior towards Zaz ckool's situation becomes even worse. So in the end I have to conclude that ckool is likely to be a scum partner of Zaz.
Mastin. I was on his side all of yesterday because I felt his post style was making him an easy lynch target when I got a town read from him. Zaz's flip paints him in a poor light. Zaz's indifference to Mastin who was a large object of discussion says a lot more to me than Mastin's obvious buddying to Zaz. I have to add him to my suspect list.
Zaz's flip doesn't negate the case against KK but that's a dead horse since no one wants to vote the claimed miller.
I don't like rofl at all. I find it incredibly contradictory that he will policy not vote a claimed miller but will vote a claimed role-blocker.
Some other suspicions I'll throw out there are Wickedestjr and still Achilles.
For now I think I will

Unvote, Vote: roflcopter

Xyl and Namtam, what are you opinions on ckool?

See above.

@rofl-could you explain to me why it is wrong to lynch the claimed miller but correct to lynch the claimed roleblocker?

[Namttam]

Some other suspicions I'll throw out there are Wickedestjr and still Achilles.

Can you please explain these suspicions please?

And also, what are your thoughts about Kmd, KK, and VP?

Let's call it gut.

You really should not try to post like this. I've already explained my thoughts on some players you asked about. That makes me think you don't really care about my answers at all. That makes my gut reading towards you a little stronger.

But I'll humor you none the less. KK is scum. I'm suspicious of VP. I'm not that suspicious of Kmd. I did a read of him in ISO since you asked and he comes off as town to me. Why do you ask about Kmd? Worried since he was suspicious of you?

@rofl-could you explain to me why it is wrong to lynch the claimed miller but correct to lynch the claimed roleblocker?

@rolf-Answer this please.

[Namttam]

A few players have expressed suspicion of me although I haven't really seen any real argument made except for SC(who I will address below). It was mentioned that I was suspicious for appearing to buddy with Mastin. I made a bad read on Mastin. I felt all his bullshit was just making him an easy target for people to attack. Yes he looked bad by the end of yesterday but I was uncomforatble with lynching a claimed power role when there were still 2 killing factions that were likely to target him even if he was scum. If people have other reasons for their suspicions of me or questions let me hear them.

I think the little wagon on rofl yesterday has a good chance of finding scum. I'm not ruling out rofl from being scum, but I think that the last cerulean could well try to use his gambit as a reason to attack him (you're prepared to die via vig so we're going to kill you is a damn stupid argument). Of the two, mosestargazer made his point loudly and clearly and put his money where his mouth is, which I have always found pro-town. Namttam however was pretty weasly, and switched after a poor case on VP he had been riding since the day before, when he took up some reasoning of mine against VP.

That's enough to earn my vote.

vote Namttam

Complete misrepresentation? I was actually suspicious of rofl because of his wanting to lynch Mastin when a claimed role-blocker and his not wanting to lynch KK because he was a claimed miller. That didn't make sense to me. I never once used rolf's gambit as an excuse to attack him. I almost feel like this is too obvious a scum tell to be real but it will earn you an

FoS:SerialClergyman

. Please come up with a new reason for your vote on me.

It doesn't make sense to me for rolf to have bussed Mastin. Mastin was a roleblocker for his team which was already down a doc. rolf could be on the other scum side but there is no clear evidence of that.

I have to back off my belief that KK is scum. Since he was attacked by both maf factions for his claim it is highly unlikely he is apart of either one. Since this conclusion did not jive with my previous one I reanalyzed my previous argument and found a flaw in it. I didn't account for the nature of the game of mafia. I don't think I've seen a role description for a miller that actually states that the miller will flip as town. Therefore, if the mod resent a miller pm to KK which did not contain this information, the mod was implying that either KK was just a regular miller or it was something only the mod got to know. These are alternate conclusion to my logic for why KK must be scum. Since I have alternate conclusions I cannot conclude KK must be scum which now jives which now jives with my conclusion that KK is town based upon him being attacked by both mafia factions. I made a mistake and I apologize.

(I'm gonna post this now since I see there is a new post from SC but I will get more suspicions out soon.)

[Namttam]

To give you an idea, I think Namtam is the scummiest based on his own posting (not looking at gamestate.) His posts ride on other people's work, which is something I've never liked, and his targets have been suspicious. From the latter stages of D1 - He voted KK for much of D1, then VP Baltar at the end of D1 and through D2 until he voted rofl in the same post he says he's convinced ckool is scum and never unvotes. Each time he voted he gives either little reason or uses the reasons other people have made. I'm going to re-read him further when I have some more mafia time.

Wait your voting for me based on my posts but you haven't re-read me? I don't post that much. I shouldn't be a difficult re-read. I've explained my reasoning for KK and VP, and my reasoning iirc, was not like anyone else's at all. I never said I was convinced ckool was scum I only said it looked likely. Because of my town read on ckool before zaz'z flip I held off on being certain, which is pretty clear since I didn't vote for ckool. If you haven't re-read me than where are you pulling all these things from, memory? Let me know if you have better reason's for your vote.

(Next post I'll get back into my suspicions.)

[Namttam]

Hayker's case on mole is weak and it doesn't matter if he denies it, it is omgus. Also, I can't accept the mind games talk as a defense of his actions. It is a sidestep around mole's reasoning for his vote, an attempt at misdirection.

Kmd's play today hasn't sat well with me. My gut tells me he's scum and my brain is telling me it too. His flip on rolf looks like him try to distance himself quickly from a failing push which made no sense in the first place. I loved how kmd posted the analysis of both day's vote counts to pursue scum put the only person it made me most suspicious of was kmd. I think the chances are pretty high that kmd would be scum. Also, this

If Rofl was scum with Mastin, it would make sense for him to say shoot me if Mastin is scum and shoot him if Mastin is town. Just sayin'.

I don't remember what the bad logic was. The important thing is why I changed my mind. His actions don't make sense as scum. I don't see him bussing his last buddy with so many players still alive, including two opposing scum. And I don't see him offering to die as scum who is unsure of Mastin's actual alignment. It just doesn't make sense unless he is extremely ballsy and actually did bus.

FTR, I called it that Achilles was gonna lurk. Hopefully we can get a replacement.

[Namttam]

Incredibly useful mason claim since it just eliminated two players I was suspicious of.

Ok, Xyl fits as either I think. I still say he could have bussed as his vote was relatively late and Mastin was pretty much going to be lynched. Also, I'm removing Wicked. He's a mason with Hayker.

Vote Nam

Wait what? Please explain.

[Namttam]

]Incredibly useful mason claim since it just eliminated two players I was suspicious of.

Ok, Xyl fits as either I think. I still say he could have bussed as his vote was relatively late and Mastin was pretty much going to be lynched. Also, I'm removing Wicked. He's a mason with Hayker.

Vote Nam

Wait what? Please explain.

Wicked claimed mason. I believe the claim, so I move to my next suspicion.

I was actually looking for some reasoning behind your vote.

@SC-Do you really think rolf is Cerulean?

Rolf's case on xyl is a very good one. I look forward to xyl's response. (I got the day off from work so I'll check back tonight.)

[Namttam]

People seem so sure I'm scum. It be nice to see someone actually make a case rather than just saying that though. I like rolf's list of scum but I would sub me out for sc as the last cerulean. The day's going pretty quick but since one of the two wagon's is on me(who is town) and the other is on someone I find likely to be scum, I will Vote:Xylthixlm. I invite those who are voting for me to back it up with some reasoning.

@Kmd-When you did you VC, why was CKD cleared?

[Namttam]

Phail again.

Vote:Xylthixlm

[Namttam]

I'm an Emerald Townie. No magic role to save me unfortunately. I still would like to hear reasons for everyone's votes on me, please don't hammer before that. I have nothing to respond to. So that means SC, Kmd, SpyreX, Xyl, and KK. Could I get reasons for your votes? (Not so much Xyl since I already understand your reason) I think all the scum are already on my wagon so the remaining town don't hammer until we hear some reasons.

[Namttam]

And I fail at counting. I'm at L-2 not L-1.

[Namttam]

You've played to live, not to find scum. You've actively avoided the major wagons. You've, ultimately, posted just enough to avoid being a true lurker but SAID very little all game.
Additionally, there is a very perverse dynamic with you and Mastin.

So I wasn't on the wagon of a player I didn't think was scum(MafiaMann) and I wasn't on the wagon of Mastin because I was suspicious of the person pushing it(VP). I was right on the first count and wrong on the second. I thought lurking and saying very little were the same thing. What do you mean by a perverse dynamic? It is interesting that all your reasons for voting me apply to your predecessor Achilles. By your logic you are scum.

THESE ARE SCUM:

Namttam - Cerulean, to be precise. I'll pull out the super best case if I have to but seriously.

Is that your best case?

1.) Mastin was rediculously scummy. Like, I'm surprised he wasn't the day 1 lynch AND I do need to go back and look at who alive derailed the wagon IF I am wrong about Nam (which I'm not).

You just read the topic why didn't you take note of it then?

[Namttam]

Still waiting on reasons from SC, Kmd, and KK. Also I didn't miss count, Kk did and i took his word for it.

[Namttam]

Still waiting on reasons from SC, Kmd, and KK. Also I didn't miss count, Kk did and i took his word for it.

I already responded to that.

You mean this?

Nam, gut and VC analysis.

I was hoping for a little bit more effort than this. Your VC paints other players in a worse light than me(including yourself). Could you elaborate on why you think I'm the best target from that?

[Namttam]

Yes, in fact, they can. And do. However, there's one more big piece to this relationship that is key.

Nam talks about Mastin a lot. A real lot. A huge chunk of his posts.

He talks over, under, between and around Mastin.

But never, ever, ever TO Mastin.

Now, how does that work?

Thought I just focus on your big point here since it is what you feel is key. Why talk to Mastin? He is already talking more than anyone else in the game. Some one talking so much is sure to give plenty of information about their alignment without my help. Not to mention he was already being pushed from a number of sides. I'd rather focus on players who I was interested in. I was wrong about Mastin, doesn't mean I'm scum. For that matter, I don't believe scum would defend their partner so heavily.

[Namttam]

True it is WIFOM, but WIFOM can have its uses. If you think I'm a player who would break convention as scum so be it.

Anyone on the fence between myself and Xyl, check out his voting record. Xyl has been hesitant to make any sort of case when voting. (Easiest way is to sort for vote in iso and look for the bold.) Voted for Hayker, Mastin, ckool, Mastin, Wickedestjr, Lowell and me.

[Namttam]

Why has Namttam not been lynched yet?

I am actually confused by this as well. What more information are people looking for? Let's get our lynch now so you guys can move on from this. Some people are dead set on lynching me, even some of those not voting for me think I'm scum. This makes me think even more that the maf are all on my wagon already.

Even at this moment, when you have a wagon against you and you could be lynched, if you were town, I'd expect you to be providing information and scumhunting that we could use the next day. The most you seem to be prepared to do is ask for people to provide a case on you.

As a player with no powers getting everyone to stand behind their votes is the best I can do to provide information to the town.

Everyone has answered my question to my satisfaction except for kmd. I'm not going to be on the internet until Thursday at the earliest so feel free to throw down the hammer as soon as he explains this.

DO NOT HAMMER UNTIL THIS IS DONE BY KMD!!!

Thanks guys.

Unvote. Vote: Namttam

@mod

-I think two weeks is too long and Lowell should probably be replaced.