Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. I've got some work to do. I think I'm just gonna get into whatever discussion goes on starting now and read as I discuss so I don't do what I did in Mafia 91 (lurk because I have no clue what is going on).

If anyone has any questions for me or anything they'd like me to discuss, it can only help.

[Kmd4390]

Emerald City First Post

FoS:

Seryna

Kise,

Nadroj15

ZazieR

,

For being the last to confirm. It's a scum tell. (Sure, they replaced the last two to confirm, but still...that doesn't mean the tell doesn't apply.)

With that out of the way,
I'd like to do some real scum hunting, here!

Mastin Votes: Mastin.

I'm a member of Mafia A, along with...hmm...let's say...Roflcopter, Mufasa, MafiaMann, and...hmmm...Ah, yes. Kublai Khan.
Fallen Angel is also a neutral mafia traitor, who we failed to recruit last night for reasons we shalln't reveal.

Zazie is a Mafia B traitor, who can be recruited by the Mafia B faction. We want Zaz dead as soon as possible because of that.
And Kise...oh, right, did I mention Khan's a rolecop and we have daytalking abilities? Yea, we do, and Khan has revealed to us that Kise is a Mafia B godfather. Yay!

Discuss.

Ok, a Mastin game. XD.

Well first, the "last to confirm" scumtell doesn't apply here. The tell says that scum will discuss before they confirm. But why would players strategize and then be replaced in confirmations. I just don't see it.

<Insert "OMG you suck for self-voting" comment here>
<Insert "scumclaiming is retarded when you do it like this" comment>

Serious question- Why assume two scumgroups over scum/vig/SK?

[Kmd4390]

More seriously, I'm a miller. So if any cops investigated me, adjust your sanity accordingly.

Khan gets judged the same as normal. I'm ignoring the claim in any analysis on his play.

[Kmd4390]

kublai khan is town, and wins the common sense award for knowing what to do as a miller

mastin needs a new start-the-game-up gag. mastin has also committed a real scumtell, policy voting the guy who claimed miller in his first post.

vote: mastin

for great justice

whoever killed elvis has earned my eternal ire and i miss her already

Rofl would have been my first serious vote in this game.

-Declares Khan town on next to nothing
-buddies to Khan by giving him and award for "knowing what to do".
-Wrong on Mastin's vote. He called it OMGUS, not a policy miller vote.
-Takes the easy Mastin vote, apparently knowing his meta
-Comment on the NK

[Kmd4390]

KMD because of it distinctly saying cerulean mafia

And the town PMs distinctly say Emerald.

[Kmd4390]

What doesn't matter?

[Kmd4390]

Some reads from the first 6 pages:
ckool5000-scum
fallen angel-slight scum
Faraday-town
Hayker-town

Johnny Rotten

VP Baltar-town
Kublai Khan-town
MafiaMann-town
roflcopter-scum

[Kmd4390]

What doesn't matter?

Wether or not we have two mafia factions scumhunting is scumhunting

I agree, but I don't see why he assumed 2 scum groups before he assumed an SK.

[Kmd4390]

Mod

, I apologize for the smaller text in Post 918. Copied and pasted from the OP and didn't realize I left it as small text. Feel free to edit.

[Kmd4390]

Some reads from the first 6 pages:

ckool5000-scum

fallen angel-slight scum
Faraday-town
Hayker-town

Johnny Rotten

VP Baltar-town
Kublai Khan-town
MafiaMann-town
roflcopter-scum

Please say that that's only the first six pages.

10 pages now and those reads pretty much stand.

[Kmd4390]

speaking of lists of who i'm willing to lynch:
mastin
fallen angel
hayker
mafiamann

On Page 12, Rofl gives a list that looks more like easy targets than actual scum candidates. Hayker and MM look pretty townie up to this point.

[Kmd4390]

Point 3 about Rotten is very:

LOL!!!!!!!!!

[Kmd4390]

Some new reads throught Page 14:
Achilles-town
Zazie-town
Wicked-scum
Nam-town

Having a hard time reading Mastin and for once, Emp.

My suspicions on Ckool are reinforced with the terrible vote on Khan "after looking at everything". I'd have been equally confortable voting either Rofl/Ckool on Page 14.

[Kmd4390]

Page 16, Hayker/Ckool, WTF? Fallen Angel starts to look townier with a very legit attack. MM looks townier. Hayker, I still think is town, but don't like the advising of CKool, who just looks terrible on Page 16.

[Kmd4390]

Point 3 about Rotten is very:

LOL!!!!!!!!!

I don't get it.

It's Farfetch'd. She's saying point 3 is farfetched and using images to do it.

[Kmd4390]

unvote, vote: hayker

ok... anything else

no. watch your step or it could be you.

Um, what? You give an unreasoned vote (I assume it was because Hayker, who you mentioned as someone you are willing to lynch, gave CKool advice on how to look townier, right?) and MM asks for reasons, so you threaten to vote him?

Whoa, whoa, whoa guys! Did I ever say I was going to stop scumhunting? Nope. This is the biggest case of strawman I've seen out of all my read-throughs of games. I only said I should probably stop saying things that'll make me want to foot in my mouth, which I was doing for quite a while there, and you guys turned it into me cracking under pressure (which I kinda was, I admit) and giving up scumhunting, which I am NOT doing.

I haven't seen any scumhunting since FA went after you. (Up to this post, not current time)

[Kmd4390]

-=Vote Count #8=-

Johnny Rotten (6) - Kise, Mastin, Namttam, Wickedestjr, Hayker, reveillark

I think there is scum on this wagon assuming my town read on JR is correct.

The time comment was aimed at everybody that posts at 1-4 in the morning at their time.

I do this on nights that I'm not working. Is that a problem for you? XD

-------------------

Don't really like Lowell's catch-up post. Basically seems to mirror Rofl.

-------------------

Done going back and forth on Fallen Angel, I think. Pretty sure he's town.

Kise, you're starting to seem pretty scummy to me.

Reasons?

[Kmd4390]

Rofl's drop in activity is concerning...

Couldn't agree more.

Are you a Lyncher by any chance?

*headscratch*

Also, voting Mastin is pro-town.

unvote, vote: mastin

a viable wagon on mastin was all i needed to come back to voting him

^LOL.

Btw VP, I'm having a hard time getting a read on Mastin at all. I'd prefer lynches on my suspects, especially Rofl and Ckool, but I'd lynch Mastin over some other popular choices like Khan and Hayker.

Let me look at your Mastin points and see what I get.

-He was fishing for flavor
-He is spamming the thread so you do not take time to read his posts
-He repeatedly asserts how pro-town he is and rather than defending he claims that most scumtells are null against him
-He has refused more than once to summarize any points against JR
-He has misrepped many many people in this thread
-He's OMGUSing anyone who disagrees with him

Fishing, I don't see.

Spamming, post style and null.

Asserts he is protown, valid point.

Summarize JR points, valid.

Misreps, valid, but may actually be a result of his poststyle, unfortunately.

OMGUSing, I'd have to check, but if true, valid.

Ok, I guess I see your case for the most part then.

On to Page 30. Almost there. Can't believe I'm doing all of this in one day.

[Kmd4390]

Well at first, I was considering the same possibility that ckool was, that Khan would claim death miller when asked if he was a death miller or not, but then you pointed out that this was a large

normal

, and now I'm beginning to get a hunch that Khan is scum. I don't have any good evidence now, so I will not vote him, but I will pay more attention to him.

Miller is pretty normal. I included it in my Mini Normal that I modded.

Are you aware that scum don't typically contribute as much as town?

STRONGLY disagree with this generalization. It may be true for some players, but there are several players, including myself, who are the exact opposite and contribute MORE as scum than as town.

Proven scum. If you don't know why go read my logic in a previous post.

Proven? I had a town read on you early, but this is one of a few twitches I've had concerning you.

-------------------------

Page 32, Mastin is near a lynch I believe. Not a formal count, but I think it's L-2 or L-1. Not a bad choice if we lynch him. My top preferences probably won't be lynched, and like I said, Mastin is much scummier than Khan, Hayker, or VP who all had wagons on them for a while.

Oh, and I'm at L-2, by the way.

I am an Emerald Roleblocker. I blocked Kublai Khan Night Zero

, because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role in the pre-game. Best random choice I could think of.

I've breadcrumbed this throughout the whole day ("I'm a roleblocker. I blocked XX because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role"-->Dead giveaway.)

I SERIOUSLY suspect VP picked up on this after my two posts, and got afraid of it.

I'm thinking that we have four kills--

A vig, a serial killer, and two mafia factions. With one of their kills failing last night. Specifically, I think Khan submitted the kill, and when he failed, he panicked and claimed miller.

THAT is one of my main reasons for suspecting Khan, above all else.

Interesting. I believe you about being a RB. I believe you thinking there are four killing roles/factions. I believe you genuinely suspect Khan. I'm just trying to determine your alignment.

-----------------

Ok, everyone and their brother switches from Mastin to MM after he claims RB. One of the biggest WTF moments of this game.

I'd definitely prefer a Mastin lynch over MM. 3 more pages. Gonna rest my eyes for 5-10 minutes and I'll finish this read.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I'm caught up now. I still think Rofl and Ckool are likely scum. I think Mastin is scum who is probably dead tonight. I think MM is probably town. My other reads that I posted earlier mostly have held up. Nam is slightly scummier than I though originally. Fallen Angel is townier than I thought originally. I think Wicked and Lowell are scum, but am less suspicious of them than I am of Rofl and Ckool. Hayker, VP, Kahn, and Zazie are obvtown.

Vote RoflCopter

[Kmd4390]

Also, anyone with less posts than me is lurking and needs to share opinions. XD

Oh, and I predict that in the future, this game will be used against me in a meta attack showing that I am capable of reading 38 pages in one RL day while also staying active in the rest of my games during that day. (Disclaimer: I didn't have to work today and wasn't feeling as lazy as I normally am)

[Kmd4390]

Also, I want to hear from Kmd why he thinks MM is town. I saw a lot of similarities in his reads on people in this game to mine, but this was a major difference.

Combination of early gut, not seeing anything in his actions that would benefit him as scum more than town, and the ridiculous speed of the wagon. He actually kind of reminds me of Myko in Spy's recent game.

I have been down this EXACT same road with him before (exept maybe he posted more). I attacked him for spouting that "X is obv town"....I felt that it was scum motivated...I was wrong...his play is scummy to be sure, but for him, it is a null tell.

He has not contributed a thing and has set himself up to jump any easy wagon he chooses. How is that a null tell?

[Kmd4390]

Have you played with rofl before Kmd?


Can't say I agree with your gut read on MM, but meh. Guess I can't win them all.

I haven't played with Rofl by himself. I've played with Trotsky which consisted of Rofl and Korts.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure MM is town. I mean my vote is here over a no lynch if needed before deadline, but he'd be one of my last choices for a lynch.

[Kmd4390]

Also, KMD..you thoughts on bandwagons or the sake of bandwagons on day 1?

Depends on how far into the Day it is and reasons for doing it.

-Barely Post-RVS just to wagon
--acceptable. people do it for reactions.
-Mid-Day
--On someone you've voiced active suspicion on, sure.
--Someone you haven't mentioned at all, slightly suspicious
--Someone you've actively called town, retarded
-Near deadline when rules give no lynch without majority
--Acceptable.
-Near deadline when rules allow for a lynch anyway
--To stop another lynch, case-by-case
--second suspicion because no one is voting your first, acceptable.

[Kmd4390]

Ckool isn't that a slight contradiction?

Also gives him a lot of options.

[Kmd4390]

I'm not buying the wagon on rofl. He looks town to me.

There really isn't a wagon yet. I'm still trying.

Why does he look town?

[Kmd4390]

I've already answered that question. Let me find it.

Combination of early gut, not seeing anything in his actions that would benefit him as scum more than town, and the ridiculous speed of the wagon.

[Kmd4390]

Khan, that game is ongoing. I'll gladly talk about it when it ends.

On Achilles, it was something in the post you mention where he gave his reads. Sounded genuine to me for some reason.

[Kmd4390]

Wait, I'm having a scumday? XD

[Kmd4390]

You're not concerned that he limited his choices to only those with votes? At the time it read like he was at a bandwagon buffet. I thought (and still think) that it reeks a little of signaling.

From what I saw, he was behind. It's perfectly reasonable to look at the most commonly discussed players when you are behind and/or having a hard time finding opinions.

Happy scumday, kmd!

Thanks!

Care to explain

why

someone should vote for MM, Emp?

The deadline would be a good reason.

What do you find scummy about me?

I'd have to re-read you to make a case, but with deadline coming up and my suspicions on you being very minor compared to rofl and ckool, now isn't the time to discuss it.

I know that, but is a death miller normal?

Not really, but has anyone claimed death miller? No. Khan just claimed miller.

Happy scum day kmd.

Thanks.

i will do some reading soon. i'm pretty sure my positions on anything important are already clear.

Willing to lynch anyone we want who isn't scum, right?

Unvote rofl, Vote MafiaMann

. If we don't reach majority before deadline, we No Lynch. So MOAR MM VOTES NAO.

[Kmd4390]

And is not how I remember him either. In fact quite the opposite, in that he was, well too easy to write people off as town.

Was he town in that game(s)?

Yeah Faraday... But your posts in general seem so town, that it's hard to find you scummy... If that's not redundant..... I guess what it really is is that there's nothing in your posts that can be considered scummy, as far as I can tell.... Hmm.... Does that make you scummy?

Is his play different from before?

I understand, but at first I wasn't suspicious of Khan because I would of expected him to claim death miller when he had been asked if he was. Then Zaz pointed out that this was a normal game, which made me realize that he wouldn't have claimed death miller if he was lying anyway. Does that make sense?

He already claimed miller. If he changed his claim to death miller, it would have been incredibly suspicious.

[Kmd4390]

I will, however, come back tomorrow and read the MM case to decide if I think that's worth it. Rest assured, I'll deliver a verdict on that one before the deadline.

The case on him is basically poor play. We do have a deadline and need a majority to avoid no lynch though, so voting him is pretty much necessary at this point.

[Kmd4390]

The case on him is basically poor play. We do have a deadline and need a majority to avoid no lynch though, so voting him is pretty much necessary at this point.

Or he could read it and decide for himself.

Right, but even if he disagrees with the case like I do, we need to lynch someone before deadline.

[Kmd4390]

Also the neighbor thing - as far as I'm aware, they don't know each others alignments, so even if we got the neighbor Mufasa was talking to, we couldn't guarantee that they were town, so there's no point to them claiming. Is that right?

Right. They are unconfirmed alignment, so no point claiming. They are basically vanilla now.

Hello. Who's scum?

Rofl and ckool for sure. Maybe Wicked and Nam too. Oh, and Mastin claimed RB and everyone pretty much shifted over to MM who was a terrible lynch. I think he's probably scum too.

vote: hakyer

Mindless bandwagon vote until I've formed an opinion of my own.

You're voting with scum. Hayker is obvtown.

...Zaz...was...mafia?!? Dang it, Zaz, you always do that to me.

QFT.

Vote Rofl

[Kmd4390]

You are my top suspect. If I can get your lynch, I'm gonna do it.

[Kmd4390]

so far your case on me is uninspiring

Elaborate.

[Kmd4390]

Rofl, more organized version of my case that I found by viewing my own posts:
-lurked
-only went after easy targets
-predetermined who was votable a little early
-Declared Khan town on next to nothing, very early in the game
-buddies to Khan by giving him and award for "knowing what to do".
-Wrong on Mastin's vote. He called it OMGUS, not a policy miller vote.
-Takes the easy Mastin vote, apparently knowing his meta
-Comment on the NK
-threatened to vote MM over asking for reasons for your vote

[Kmd4390]

Hayker, that too.

Xyl, people keep saying that. I don't understand why this is town play though. How is it different from his scum play?

[Kmd4390]

That's a bullshit "defense" and you know it.

[Kmd4390]

it's about time we looked at people like rofl, empking's alt, lowell etc who are coasting without much in the way of suspicion based on meta.

Lowell is getting off because of meta?

sure, just pretend those points are numbered

1 is true, i lurked
2 is false, my targets weren't "easy" they were scummy. and you can hardly call going after hayker and mastin easy now that kmd is riding my case about it. almost makes them seem like they're all connected.
3 is completely subjective. "a little early" is a pile of crap when it comes to calling something scummy. it is 100% kmd's opinion, not fact.
4 again with the "early in the game" bullshit. and i didn't declare him town on "next to nothing," i gave a very detailed explanation for why i was declaring him town.
5 kmd seems to be simultaneously arguing that i shouldn't have declared khan town, while saying that i'm buddying to him, an action which would only be scummy if

khan is town

. pick a side ass hat.
6 actually i don't even remember what this one is referring to in particular, but its obviously a backhanded defense of mastin again. mastin was doing exactly what zazie was doing yesterday, going after the claimed miller and ignoring most everything else. look what zazie flipped.
7 again, what about it?
8 again, what about it?

so there you go. now lets all sing kumbaya together while we lynch mastin.

2-Hayker couldn't be more obvtown, but is newer and bound to slip up a little. Mastin could very well be scum, but he's not exactly a hard case to push. I'll lay off about Mastin though because I do see him as possible scum.
3-people can agree or disagree with opinions, no?
4-Still way too early to say he's gotta be town. And Zazie

would

distance knowing that no one else is agreeing. I

do

think Khan is town, but he is FAR from being confirmed in any way like you are treating him.
5-Or he could be scum, but not with you. Learn the sides "ass hat".
6-But your vote at the time looked more like a playstyle vote.
7-It's scummy
8-It's scummy

[Kmd4390]

i have this theory about the game of mafia. the town wins not by identifying all the scum, but by identifying enough town to drown the scum in confirmations. if a large enough proportion of the town agrees on one player being town, the scum are forced to deal with that player in a way they would deal with a cop-cleared player. this is why scum always fight so hard against people agreeing with one another over who is town, and why they will always argue against clearing someone. its like a supertell.

Hmm. I can follow that logic. But the town perspective is that you don't want to "clear" scum, so you do everything you can to question someone being confirmed before you treat them as such.

3-people can agree or disagree with opinions, no?

people are free to disagree, but you listing what is a difference in our opinions as a reason for why i'm scum is foolhardy

Well, scum going after easy targets is a tell. It's opinion who those easy targets are. I happen to think your targets are the easy ones.

4-Still way too early to say he's gotta be town. And Zazie would distance knowing that no one else is agreeing. I do think Khan is town, but he is FAR from being confirmed in any way like you are treating him.

see the above theory, and again you're using your opinion like its a fact, and like it makes me scummy for not agreeing with you about it

No, my opinion is that Khan is town. I just think you're a little quick to "clear" him.

5-Or he could be scum, but not with you. Learn the sides "ass hat".

he's town.

Maybe.

6-But your vote at the time looked more like a playstyle vote.

explain please

Sure. This was your first post of the game:

kublai khan is town, and wins the common sense award for knowing what to do as a miller

mastin needs a new start-the-game-up gag. mastin has also committed a real scumtell, policy voting the guy who claimed miller in his first post.

vote: mastin

for great justice

whoever killed elvis has earned my eternal ire and i miss her already

Ignoring that you call Khan town immediately and the comment on EK, you voted Mastin. You said he "needs a new start-the-game-up gag" and that he

ALSO

committed a real scumtell. And is he not just disagreeing with your opinion here? I was thinking the vote was due to his playstyle, but I see that I was wrong. My bad.

7-It's scummy
8-It's scummy

prove please[/quote]

Commenting on the NK is almost a subconscious "I have no idea what happened" after knowing that you (or your buddies) submitted that kill.

Threatening MM wasn't productive at all.

[Kmd4390]

@Kmd - Can you explain how you got a scum read from me?

Gut. I'll push a real case when I have one. Rofl, ckool, and maybe Mastin are all scummier than you.

Also, if Zazie is reading the game, I wouldn't be stealing that post-style. XD

[Kmd4390]

I was referring to the EK kill.

I don't see how you can honestly think it's not scummy to threaten someone to vote how you want. If I were to say "Wicked, I'm voting you if you don't vote rofl in your next post", would that not be scummy?

[Kmd4390]

I was referring to the EK kill.

then you are seriously reaching for any little thing i've done to call scummy. ek and i have a friendly relationship. i bemoaned the fact that my friend had been killed night zero and i would not get the opportunity to play with her.

Didn't know that.

I don't see how you can honestly think it's not scummy to threaten someone to vote how you want. If I were to say "Wicked, I'm voting you if you don't vote rofl in your next post", would that not be scummy?

i don't recall ever trying to badger mafiamann into voting with me, but if i did, he and you and everyone else should grow a pair and get over it.

Or you could let townies think for themselves.

oh, and you should be voting for mastin. hop on that.

Why?

[Kmd4390]

as for why you should vote mastin, because he's probably scum, as you've also mentioned quite a few times over the course of the last few pages in a sad little attempt to look like you actually suspect him, and because if he is scum he's a scum power role

I have both you and ckool as scummier than Mastin. I'll only vote him if I can't get a lynch on one of the two of you.

so how many points that you originally listed against me have you conceded now? we're getting closer and closer to the only point being lurking.

2 or 3 I think.

[Kmd4390]

kmd, how important do you consider bandwagoning as town?

Pretty important. Can't lynch without it.

[Kmd4390]

The point about the JK is a decent one...though I wouldn't have expected Mafia 91 to have three town cops either, but it did.

Thought we only had 2. Vi and Zazie.

and would you say you rate ckool and myself as equally scummy? that was the impression i got when you said you'd only lynch mastin if you couldn't lynch ckool or me.

You are slightly more likely to be scum than ckool IMO.

[Kmd4390]

is the disparity in our likeliness of being scum on your personal scale of more value than creating a 3 person wagon instead of a 2 person wagon?

You're asking me to vote ckool. If I start to think ckool's lynch is more likely than yours, I'll switch. A one vote difference won't do it for me.

[Kmd4390]

is the disparity in our likeliness of being scum on your personal scale of more value than creating a 3 person wagon instead of a 2 person wagon?

You're asking me to vote ckool. If I start to think ckool's lynch is more likely than yours, I'll switch. A one vote difference won't do it for me.

your switch would immediately make a ckool lynch more likely than mine. two racing wagons of two votes each stalls the game.

But I would prefer for yours to be more likely. And does this game seem stalled to you? I don't get that impression.

Empking was a cop as well...he just happened to be (rightly) vigged on N0.

Oh, right. Forgot about that.

[Kmd4390]

ha

Kise, Emerald Townie - Slaughtered Night One

it means he's not paying attention and not part of the group whose kill m.o. is "slaughtered"

We were talking about Mafia 91.

[Kmd4390]

@CKD-yeah yeah I get your point. I should have remembered that. I'm not going to try and excuse it now.

Wait, what?

[Kmd4390]

Oh, shit. Kise, not Empking. My bad. Forget that.

[Kmd4390]

Wicked, I already answered all of the things you mentioned. Why are you using Zazie's post-style anyway?

[Kmd4390]

Post 1138.

[Kmd4390]

and the discussion continues after that.

[Kmd4390]

I'm pretty sure Khan is indeed a miller now.

What makes you think miller?

Maybe it was the miller claim.

------------

VP, interesting. I saw ckool as scummy before, but I didn't see the connection to Zazie.

[Kmd4390]

KMD - how did you not see a connection between cKool and Zazie when it was discussed right at the start of the day? Check out post 1041

Probably skimmed it.

[Kmd4390]

Ckool is at L-2. I'm going to say that he should claim now as I'm willing to vote him and I believe others are as well.

[Kmd4390]

Who did you kill Night 1?

[Kmd4390]

Mufasa. It says "Annihilated" when it's me.

Also, did anyone else notice that Mastin nailed at least one scum on the first post of the game.

Ok, I was planning to point out "Annihilated" if you claimed someone else. It's null now because you mentioned it. I don't think there is an SK (24 players, 6 scum would be balanced, I don't see 2 scumgroups with different numbers on each), so I do believe there is a vig. I won't vote you unless we either see a counterclaim or another vig flip later.

And Mastin got lucky.

[Kmd4390]

unvote, vote: mastin

ckool: if mastin flips scum you should kill kmd tonight, if he flips town you should kill me

Works for me even at the risk that Mastin actually is scum. It's just one more way that my top suspect can be eliminated.

Unvote, Vote Mastin

[Kmd4390]

SerialClergyman is town. Bad idea, but he's town.

[Kmd4390]

SerialClergyman is town. Bad idea, but he's town.

Why's that?

He came up with a plan and quickly realized it was bad. I don't think he'd have done that the way he did as scum.

We've already had one mafia doctor die, and we know there's two mafia groups. So unless the mafia groups are somehow imbalanced, which seems unlikely to me, there's another mafia doctor out there. Which means it's entirely likely that rofl is putting forward this idea knowing he has protection at night.

Bad assumption.

[Kmd4390]

Wouldn't it be unfair to have two scumgroups with different makeups? I'm not saying it's impossible, and I havne't played many (coughanycough) large player games, but just on fairness I thought it was a decent assumption.

They can be different and still have equal power.

wifom...... I hate it when that happens. You think you're on a logic roll... then wifom pops in.

Nothing is wrong with WIFOM.

[Kmd4390]

I must be scum in every game I have ever played before then. WIFOM can be used to catch scum just as much as it can be used to confuse town. Mafiascum generally doesn't like that idea though and twitches at anything that is remotely connected to WIFOM. I'll get away from theory discussion though. I'll rant about this in MD or something the next time it gets brought up there. No need for it here.

[Kmd4390]

You know, that actually makes perfect sense, especially for my role...

Since I've said all this, will I really kill whoever rofl says I should when Mastin turns up as whatever? Nobody knows! Oooooh....

Now you're getting it.

[Kmd4390]

If Rofl was scum with Mastin, it would make sense for him to say shoot me if Mastin is scum and shoot him if Mastin is town. Just sayin'.

[Kmd4390]

Also, Emp's neighbor flip is surprising. I didn't see anything to connect him to Mufasa.

[Kmd4390]

So based on meta on subtle hints you found in isolation reads, you find it likely that Rofl bussed Mastin, correct?

[Kmd4390]

I was trying to lynch you BEFORE you were right. Oh, and it's still possible that either you bussed or are on the other scumteam.

[Kmd4390]

kmd/hayker - what is your best guess for how many members there are of each scumteam?

24/4=6/2=3 on each. 4 at most, but definitely not 2 or 5. So 3-4.

[Kmd4390]

If Rofl was scum with Mastin, it would make sense for him to say shoot me if Mastin is scum and shoot him if Mastin is town. Just sayin'.

and now you're trying to lynch me FOR being right. pathetic, really.

Not saying that at all. I'm saying that if you were scum with Mastin, your play in calling for my death if Mastin was scum and yours if he was town would be beneficial for you.

[Kmd4390]

You're right. If you are scum, there are probably 4. Thanks.

[Kmd4390]

hey kmd, who do you think vp baltar investigated between days one and two?

So Night 1? Based on his first post on Day 2, Mastin actually makes sense. He comes in questioning him and eventually votes him. If he got an innocent, he didn't hint at it at all that I see. If he had a guilty on someone else, his play makes no sense.

btw, now that we've had members of both scumteams trying their hardest to get khan lynched, can we finally agree that the guy is town and stop even entertaining the notion that we'll ever lynch him, ever? kthx

He is 97-98% likely to be town. I won't be likely to vote him any time soon.

and a four player scum team with (at least) two mafia power roles is extremely unlikely, to say the least. observe where kmd and hayker both readily accepted that it "must" be so because i'm obviously scum with mastin

I said "if" you are scum with Mastin, it's probably 4. That or you are a really ballsy player.

mastin may very well have been investigated by johnny, but that was night 0. i'm interested in who baltar investigated after the mafiamann lynch. i have my ideas, but i want to see what kmd thinks.

If it wasn't Mastin, the best I can give you is who I personally would have looked at. Apart from that, I have no clue.

[Kmd4390]

and kmd, if you think baltar had a guilty on mastin, why would he vote someone other than mastin when the mastin wagon reignited at the end of yesterday?

Didn't check that. I looked at his first post of the day and the end of day votecount. I have no clue who he investigated then.

[Kmd4390]

You don't think Hayker honestly sees you as scum?

[Kmd4390]

actually, i suspect kmd is cerulean and hayker is vermillion, so

unvote, vote: hayker

What makes you think this?

i think there are three members of each team, meaning only one cerulean left. i also think that the vermillion mafia currently want to look like they're hunting for mastin's scumpartner, but they also want to be wrong so they can continue hunting for mastin' scumpartner in the future and continue ignoring the vermillion mafia. trying to lynch me on the basis of thinking i'm mastin's scumpartner fits this framework. also, i already thought hayker was scummy, and if kmd (or namtamm) are the last cerulean, that only leaves vermillion for hayker to be.

So if this truly is what the Vermillions are doing, then do you think it would actually benefit them to try to hunt for the last Cerulean now than later? Why?

Stop asking for advice on how to play as scum.

[Kmd4390]

Also, Emp's neighbor flip is surprising. I didn't see anything to connect him to Mufasa.

Emp makes a lousy unconfirmed mason, he plays it like townie

I saw nothing in posts from either of the two to suggest they were neighbors. Not important though.

I was trying to lynch you BEFORE you were right. Oh, and it's still possible that either you bussed or are on the other scumteam.

And you're still trying to lynch him? Bad Kmd.

You don't think he could have bussed or that he could be Vermillion?

[Kmd4390]

vote: roflcopter

We should aim to get a role-claim from roflcopter today. There's something fishy about him.

Ok.

Vote roflcopter

[Kmd4390]

We should aim to get a role-claim from roflcopter today. There's something fishy about him.

this is a stupid plan. see kmd sheep onto it immediately for evidence.

Yeah, there's no way I thought you were scum before Khan said you were, right?

[Kmd4390]

We should aim to get a role-claim from roflcopter today. There's something fishy about him.

this is a stupid plan. see kmd sheep onto it immediately for evidence.

Yeah, there's no way I thought you were scum before Khan said you were, right?

there's no way you had the balls to vote me before he said a claim should be forced, thats for sure. ckool really should have vigged you.

Because I didn't vote you yesterday at all, right?

[Kmd4390]

I didn't think he was "so town". I just figured that one of two things would happen:
1) Mastin is scum. Good lynch.
2) Mastin is town. Rofl dies at night. Good because I think Rofl is scum.

Either way, we end up with dead scum or my top suspect dead. No way it could go wrong.

[Kmd4390]

Xyl, this was my original case on Rofl:

Rofl, more organized version of my case that I found by viewing my own posts:
-lurked
-only went after easy targets
-predetermined who was votable a little early
-Declared Khan town on next to nothing, very early in the game
-buddies to Khan by giving him and award for "knowing what to do".
-Wrong on Mastin's vote. He called it OMGUS, not a policy miller vote.
-Takes the easy Mastin vote, apparently knowing his meta
-Comment on the NK
-threatened to vote MM over asking for reasons for your vote

For sake of fairness, here is his defense:

Rofl, more organized version of my case that I found by viewing my own posts:
-lurked

true

-only went after easy targets

false

-predetermined who was votable a little early

your opinion

-Declared Khan town on next to nothing, very early in the game

wrong

-buddies to Khan by giving him and award for "knowing what to do".

wrong

-Wrong on Mastin's vote. He called it OMGUS, not a policy miller vote.

wrong

-Takes the easy Mastin vote, apparently knowing his meta

wrong

-Comment on the NK

what about it

-threatened to vote MM over asking for reasons for your vote

what about it

my comments in bold. this still looks like a lurker hunt when you could be going after mastin, who you've already admitted you find scummy.

View us both in ISO if you want to see further discussion.

[Kmd4390]

Reasons I think roflcopter is town:
1) Defense of Kublai Khan
2) Attempts to get Mastin lynched
3) Attack on me (misguided)
4) Doing whatever it takes to kill scum

Reasons I'm not sure roflcopter is town:
1) Willingness to be vigged as a distraction

How do 1 and 2 make him town? 3 and 4, I could see normally, but maybe he is scum who thinks he's found opposing scum.

Reasons I'm not sure roflcopter is town:
1) Willingness to be vigged as a distraction

To be clear, do you mean this is a scumpoint against him OR do you mean that you aren't using this as reasoning why he is town.

why do you think "forcing a claim" out of me is a good idea? how does that benefit the town?

same question to kmd, who agreed like a little lap dog.

Well I want you lynched and usually a claim happens before a lynch.

We should aim to get a role-claim from roflcopter today. There's something fishy about him.

this is a stupid plan. see kmd sheep onto it immediately for evidence.

Yeah, there's no way I thought you were scum before Khan said you were, right?

there's no way you had the balls to vote me before he said a claim should be forced, thats for sure. ckool really should have vigged you.

Because I didn't vote you yesterday at all, right?

the fact that you voted me yesterday is irrelevant to this discussion. we're talking about today, and today is a whole new ballgame. today you didn't vote me until khan suggeted the town force a claim. today all you did was encourage hayker to attack me.

Well my opinion didn't change over night.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, you don't think Mastin's flip affects your case at all?

I suck at seeing connections.

<I had a paragraph here explaining why Rofl is scum, and then realized it was a terrible argument, so that's gone>

Actually, if he is scum with Mastin, he made a terrible play or has another scumbuddy still alive. If he's scum opposing Mastin, he made a dumb move offering to be vidged. Fuck.

Unvote

.

[Kmd4390]

-=Vote Count #28: The End of Day One Votecount=-

MafiaMann

(11) - SerialClergyman, Wickedestjr, roflcopter, Lowell, Faraday,

Empking's Alt

,

Mufasa

, Kmd4390,

VP Baltar

,

ckool5000

, Hayker

VP Baltar

(3) -

Kise

,

Mastin

, Namttam

Mufasa

(2) - curiouskarmadog, molestargazer
Kublai Khan (1) -

ZazieR

ckool5000

(1) - fallen angel

Not Voting (3) - Achilles,

MafiaMann

, Kublai Khan

There is scum on the MM wagon. Likely more than one. I remember voting because it was MM or no lynch, and Hayker voted later than I did. That means that we can find scum in the following list:
Serial
Wicked
Rofl
Lowell
Faraday

As I determined in my last post, Rofl is either town or dumb. I'd lean town. Serial has given me town vibes all game, but I'm going to remember that his name was here.

Wicked, Lowell, and Faraday are left as likely scum

. I'd say at least one of these 3 (4 including Serial) is scum. Probably even 2. Maybe 3, but that may be pushing it.

Nam voted VP. As did Mastin. I don't see scumbuddies voting together as 2nd and 3rd votes on a wagon of 3 players. Nam is more likely Vermilion than Cerulean.

CKD and Molest were alone in voting a known townie. Slight scum points, but not as much as the 11 player lynch wagon on a known townie.

FA (now Xyl) same thing, but even less than CKD and Molest.

I don't like Achilles not voting, although he has been rather inactive lately. And Khan is probably town anyway.

Summary of Day 1 analysis reads:

Scummiest:
Wicked
Lowell
Faraday

Scummy:
Nam
Molest
CKD

Keep an eye on, but nothing major:
Serial
Xyl
Achilles

Town:
Rofl
Hayker
Khan
Kmd

-=Vote Count #38=-

Mastin

(9) - curiouskarmadog, roflcopter, Kmd4390,

ckool5000, VP Baltar

, Xylthixlm, Wickedestjr, SerialClergyman, Kublai Khan
roflcopter (2) - molestargazer, Namttam
Hayker (2) - Lowell, Faraday

ckool5000

(1) - Hayker

VP Baltar

(1) -

Mastin

Kublai Khan (1) -

Empking's Alt

Not Voting (1) - Achilles

Mastin's wagon probably included one Vermillion. Again, I'm leaning town on Rofl. I know I'm town. I think Khan is town. That leaves this list:
CKD
Xyl
Wicked
Serial

Ok, so Serial is on both of those lists. So is Wicked. L-2 and L-1 votes, specifically. If they are both Vermillion, it means Xyl and CKD are likely town, especially CKD. Xyl could have bussed as Mastin was going down anyway, but I'm not so sure he'd have done so.

Molest and Nam were voting Rofl. No known alignment, but I do think he is town. This gets looked at the same way as the votes on Mufasa Day 1. Molest was on that too. Lowell and Faraday voted Hayker, which can be looked at the same way.

So, conclusions:
Vermilion is 2 of:
Wicked
Nam
Serial

Cerulean is 1 of:
Lowell
Faraday
Molest
Xyl

I'm going to ask Rofl and Khan. Which team does it benefit town to lynch? The last Cerulean or a Vermilion?

[Kmd4390]

so kmd, who's scum?

See my newly posted analysis.

To be clear, do you mean this is a scumpoint against him OR do you mean that you aren't using this as reasoning why he is town.

Scumpoint against him.

Why? As Mastin's buddy, he leaves himself alone as the last scum on his team facing 2 opposing scum, assuming 3 on each side. As Vermilion, he can't be THAT confident in Mastin's alignment and ends up fucking himself if Mastin is town.

[Kmd4390]

Xyl, we agree that rofl is probably town then?

[Kmd4390]

Faraday, when writing the following post, I started to use bad logic, caught myself, and thought about the situation:

Kmd, you don't think Mastin's flip affects your case at all?

I suck at seeing connections.

<I had a paragraph here explaining why Rofl is scum, and then realized it was a terrible argument, so that's gone>

Actually, if he is scum with Mastin, he made a terrible play or has another scumbuddy still alive. If he's scum opposing Mastin, he made a dumb move offering to be vidged. Fuck.

Unvote

.

The last paragraph is my thinking. So I guess you could say Xyl convinced me.

[Kmd4390]

kmd, why are you so sure hayker is town?

Gut read and nothing to suggest otherwise.

Btw, I expect you or someone else to call Hayker and I scumbuddies soon. If I was scum, that's probably who I'd be most connected to.

[Kmd4390]

Rofl, which scumteam should we be lynching today?

[Kmd4390]

to answer the question (again) of which team i think we should be trying to lynch today, i say we aim for vermillion.

the remaining cerulean mafia, if they know what they're doing, will be trying to shoot vermillion mafia tonight, not town. so they'll either succeed in killing a scum (yay for town!) or they'll kill someone who probably would have ended up mislynched anyway (still helping town). and since the suspect list for cerulean mafia is not very large, and the evidence is most certainly available between the mastin wagon's days 1 and 2, the town can easily come back to finding cerulean later and mop it up.

Vote Wicked

Makes sense. Cerulean would be dumb not to shoot for Vermilion tonight.

I sense that KMD may vote for me soon.

Umm.. why?

[Kmd4390]

I just sensed a slight change in your opinion towards me, is my sense false?

Yeah. I'm pretty sure you are town still.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd's U-turn on rofl has me utterly confused. I've never seen someone make that kind of extreme flip. Kmd - you very much glazed over your reason for your transformation - perhaps it's not significant to you but it's really significant to us. Could you please post the full paragraph you removed and point out the bad logic? At the moment, you've gone form being prepared to die yourself for a chance to get rofl killed to ignoring that he was on both wagons in your bandwagon analysis.

I don't remember what the bad logic was. The important thing is why I changed my mind. His actions don't make sense as scum. I don't see him bussing his last buddy with so many players still alive, including two opposing scum. And I don't see him offering to die as scum who is unsure of Mastin's actual alignment. It just doesn't make sense unless he is extremely ballsy and actually did bus.

There is scum on the MM wagon. Likely more than one.

I remember voting because it was MM or no lynch

, and Hayker voted later than I did. That means that we can find scum in the following list:
Serial
Wicked
Rofl
Lowell
Faraday

That is one of the main reasons why I voted MM too. I think that Lowell might be a Vermillion. He has been acting strangely and wanted Mastin lynched.

Um, no. I'm not buying that you placed the second vote out of eleven solely to avoid a no lynch.

Kmd, I don't understand why you are voting me. For being on both wagons? You also have me listed as scummiest on your big catch up post. Care to elaborate on that? Notice that the only dead people that were on both wagons were ckool and VP. They were both innocent. So you are just assuming that I'm scum? Doesn't make sense to me.

First, I have a gut scum read on you. My gut wants me to vote either you or Nam. Second, my analysis assumes that a townie like MM is scumbait. Scum love players like that. Easy lynches. There is no way no scum voted him. Also, Mastin can be looked at the same way when looking for Vermilion. Cerulean probably avoided the Mastin wagon. So not only can I conclude that you are scum, but Vermilion as well.

In my previous post, when I said "big catch up post" I meant to say "big analysis post". Sorry.

Just my way of categorizing the end of Day 1 voters.

Not sure I like Kmd's mega-quick flip from thinking Rofl is obvscum to thinking he's town, and listing me as possible scum for voting him on DAY 2, when Kmd himself still thought Rofl was scum, iirc.

Rofl's play is scummy. But the way he played the Mastin lynch would be retarded scum play. Rofl isn't retarded, so he's town.

The reason for suspecting you is what I said above. It's not that the votes on Rofl were bad. It's that scum want to capitalize on it, and likely did. This is more true with larger wagons though.

I would be extremely surprised if at least 1 of KMD, rofl and Xyl were not scum.

If you're right, it means Xyl is scum. I haven't ruled that out.

Kmd, how come you didn't vote rofl until Khan did? If you've already answered this, please tell me the post number.

Didn't realize until then that I hadn't. I had already planned to vote him. Just never did, I guess.

[Kmd4390]

Nam, I still stand by my statements that Rofl was scummy. The only reason I've backed off is because his stance on ckool's kill makes no sense from a scum standpoint.

[Kmd4390]

I have this feeling like a few people aren't posting:
Achilles
Lowell
curiouskarmadog
Faraday

This post is a note to myself that they're the ones to look at if I want a lurker hunt.

Lowell is probably scum. Maybe Faraday too.

[Kmd4390]

I actually forgot about thinking Serial was town because of that...

I've been over my reads on Rofl and Hayker several times.

additional question KMD, anything that helped your gut read on Hay?

More than likely.

[Kmd4390]

Don't remember.

[Kmd4390]

What is the case on Hayker?

[Kmd4390]

Khan, I don't think that's a case on scum. I think that's a case on a newer player.

The lack of support for lynching Wickedestjr makes me

V__V

[Kmd4390]

Hayker isn't scum, so I disagree on the Hayker/Xyl pair.

If Nam and Molest are scum, they are opposing scum.

CKD is town, but why Faraday?

[Kmd4390]

you don't get to question town reads while you stick to yours on hayker for reasons you fail to even remember

I know it's a gut read. I just don't remember anything else to go with it.

[Kmd4390]

sounds like its time for you to go back and either figure out where and why you decided he was town or reevaluate your position

Nah. I trust my read and I don't see a convincing case.

[Kmd4390]

sounds like its time for you to go back and either figure out where and why you decided he was town or reevaluate your position

Nah. I trust my read and I don't see a convincing case.

Now do that for a whole game and you'll have roflcopter's playstyle.

Heh. Give me 6 more hours and I'll be getting out of work having been awake for 24 hours straight. I should be less lazy tomorrow night before work.

[Kmd4390]

I buy the claim. I assume you know your partner(s) to be town?

[Kmd4390]

Xyl, why do you think that? Because I've defended him so hard?

[Kmd4390]

There is scum on the MM wagon. Likely more than one.

I remember voting because it was MM or no lynch

, and Hayker voted later than I did. That means that we can find scum in the following list:
Serial
Wicked
Rofl
Lowell
Faraday

That is one of the main reasons why I voted MM too. I think that Lowell might be a Vermillion. He has been acting strangely and wanted Mastin lynched.

Um, no. I'm not buying that you placed the second vote out of eleven solely to avoid a no lynch.

Well that is the truth.

What was your thought process? Because I just can't picture, "well, he has a vote, so it's either him or no one."

First, I have a gut scum read on you. My gut wants me to vote either you or Nam. Second, my analysis assumes that a townie like MM is scumbait. Scum love players like that. Easy lynches. There is no way no scum voted him. Also, Mastin can be looked at the same way when looking for Vermilion. Cerulean probably avoided the Mastin wagon. So not only can I conclude that you are scum, but Vermilion as well.

So you are going to lynch me based on a gut read and doing something that two dead townies did too?[/quote]

Hey, just because townies voted MM doesn't mean that scum didn't. Do you honestly think there was no scum on that lynch? And I'm willing to lynch you because I think you are scum.

Is anyone willing to read Wickedestjr's posts in iso and go on record as saying they are

not

scummy?

Not me.

[Kmd4390]

Rofl, didn't you want to take out Vermilion first? And you said Cerulean would be the ones who want to be wrong. So if Xyl was Vermilion, shouldn't he actually believe the cases he pushes? Xyl is either Cerulean or town.

Yeah, that makes sense about Hayker. He needs a partnerclaim. And they need to say how many there are. Can't let scum try anything. I'm not Hayker's masonbuddy.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, I think you messed that up, Vermillion would be the ones who want to be wrong according to roflcopter.

You aren't Hayker's masonbuddy? Drat.

Oh, my bad. Well my analysis had you as Cerulean if you are scum.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

[Kmd4390]

So, conclusions:
Vermilion is 2 of:

Wicked

Nam
Serial

Xyl

Cerulean is 1 of:
Lowell
Faraday
Molest
Xyl

Ok, Xyl fits as either I think. I still say he could have bussed as his vote was relatively late and Mastin was pretty much going to be lynched. Also, I'm removing Wicked. He's a mason with Hayker.

Vote Nam

[Kmd4390]

the mason buddy might even be dead.

What?

[Kmd4390]

kmd, why did you just vote nam instead of xyl?

Higher on my suspicion list.

In which case - Hayker, can you confirm you are in fact Mason and not a neighbour?

He confirmed this when I asked. Wouldn't mind hearing it from Wicked too though.

[Kmd4390]

kmd, what criteria are you using to order your suspicion list.

Players who I think are more likely to be scum go higher on the list.

Incredibly useful mason claim since it just eliminated two players I was suspicious of.

Ok, Xyl fits as either I think. I still say he could have bussed as his vote was relatively late and Mastin was pretty much going to be lynched. Also, I'm removing Wicked. He's a mason with Hayker.

Vote Nam

Wait what? Please explain.

Wicked claimed mason. I believe the claim, so I move to my next suspicion.

Unvote

Vote: Hayker

I think we have a scum pair here, guys.

I am an Emerald Neighbour. My neighbour was Empking's Alt - and only him. This evidently means that there is another neighbour pairing in Mufasa and someone else.

I think it's HIGHLY unlikely that another pro-town mason pairing (Or more?) would be put into the game by the mod, especially confirmable ones on top of neighbours which could be confirmable after one partner's death, particularly with the number of pro-town powerroles that are already dead. (Cop, Vigilante, Jailkeeper, 2 neighbours).
There are 13 people left alive. Hayker is claiming a pair of 2 masons in this mix, as well as there being 2 Neighbours still alive - myself and another. On top of this, only 3 scum are dead. This means that at the very least there are 3 others in the mix, if not a lot more. I think the odds of their being masons are pretty small.

It appears quite a coincidence that the masons are ones gaining a lot of suspicion. It would be a nice way to clear them both for at least a few days, if not until the end of the game, without anyone being able to question it due to our cop being dead. Their survival over nights can be questioned away using WIFOM. It will at least let them sit pretty for a few days and kill of a few more pro-town players, which COULD lead to them riding out the game.

Ok, I believe you for sure, but I don't see masons as implausible..

After the first Mastin bandwagon resulted in Mastin's claim, I decided to go for the best alternative, which I thought was MafiaMann. The deadline was about a week away, and we had to get a big bandwagon. If we didn't, we may have got a power role to claim, and then we most likely would have no time to lynch somebody else. There were other people willing to lynch MM, the case on him was good, so we started a bandwagon on him. He ended up not being a power role, so it would have not been the biggest loss.

Well, what I had said was that I voted him because it was him or no lynch. You said you did the same, which is not what the above quote says. Damnit, now I don't know what to think. You are scummy, but Hayker seems so obvtown. And you can't be scum unless Hayker is. Damn. I've gotta figure this out.

Every game I have played prior to this game. I have been lynched. And I have played 5 games of mafia prior to this one. Not all on this site though. Regardless of my allignment, I always give people the impression that I am scum. That is probably the reason why you and Xyl think I am scum.

Appeal to emotion isn't going to change the pattern.

-----------------

Ok, so here's what we've got. Before the claims, Hayker was one of my top 3 town reads. Wicked was my top scum read. Now they claim mason together. I was right about one read and wrong about the other. I don't think Cop/JK/Vig/2 neighbor pairs/masons is much more powerful than it would be without the masons. Neighbors are unconfirmed, although Molest claiming the way he did is something I expect from town, so I don't think there is a scum neighbor unless Molest is pulling something weird/dumb. If anything, Cop/JK/Vig is what I'd question, but that's all confirmed. Is reward greater than risk if we lynch one of the claimed masons today? If they flip scum, we've got another caught right away. If they flip mason, the most we do is confirm the other.

I think I need to get some sleep before I make a decision (7:12 AM and I just got home from work).

[Kmd4390]

we are NOT testlynching a mason

No, testlynching would be dumb. We only lynch if we think they are scum. Right now, I'm nowhere near sure enough. Moar Nam votes plz, kthx.

kmd, what criteria are you using to order your suspicion list.

Players who I think are more likely to be scum go higher on the list.

you are not a colossal idiot, so stop acting like one. you utterly failed to actually answer my question, and you know it.

You want me to explain why I think players are scum. Well, I am a gut player. I use gut to find scum. If I need to build a case based on logic, I'm only doing it to convince everyone else. Well, that and I trust VC analysis.

the more i look at it, the more ridiculous that suggestion to testlynch a mason becomes.

Quit using this term. It's not a testlynch if you think they are scum.

So let's see if I understand this

I brought up a possible partner-based tell on Wickedestjr. Because I linked him to Mastin, and therefore thought he's Cerulean, roflcopter accused me of selective scumhunting. Mastin came up Vermillion, and now roflcopter is pressing the case that ... I am selectively scumhunting for Ceruleans by linking people to Vermillions?

If you believe that I have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you

Wait, Mastin

was

Cerulean

shit, I need to do this when I'm awake

Ok, I'm having trouble WIFOMing this myself, so I'm gonna what others think. If Xyl honestly forgot what team Mastin was, he's town. If he was scumbuddies with Mastin, he'd have remembered. If he wasn't scum with Mastin, but was scum, he'd have remembered. Variables include: he somehow forgot anyway, he misspoke, he did this intentionally. I was starting to think Xyl is scum, but not so sure now.

interesting find.

So who here is willing to accept 4 mafia members in each?

It's possible.

[Kmd4390]

Rofl,

So let's see if I understand this

I brought up a possible partner-based tell on Wickedestjr. Because I linked him to Mastin, and therefore thought he's Cerulean, roflcopter accused me of selective scumhunting. Mastin came up Vermillion, and now roflcopter is pressing the case that ... I am selectively scumhunting for Ceruleans by linking people to Vermillions?

If you believe that I have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you

Wait, Mastin

was

Cerulean

shit, I need to do this when I'm awake

Ok, I'm having trouble WIFOMing this myself, so I'm gonna what others think. If Xyl honestly forgot what team Mastin was, he's town. If he was scumbuddies with Mastin, he'd have remembered. If he wasn't scum with Mastin, but was scum, he'd have remembered. Variables include: he somehow forgot anyway, he misspoke, he did this intentionally. I was starting to think Xyl is scum, but not so sure now.

[Kmd4390]

kmd, that explanation fails hard, because xyl's little he's-red-no-he's-blue maneuver came

after

you decided nam deserved your vote more than xyl

But I was going to switch until that.

why was nam more deserving of your vote than xyl WHEN YOU PLACED THE NAM VOTE

Are you asking me to build a case on Nam? All I have right now is gut/VC analysis, but I'm willing to go through his posts for a case if you'd like.

[Kmd4390]

no, i understand the case on nam, i want you to go through your thought process when it came time to vote one or the other and explain why you chose nam

I remembered my original read-through. I remembered coming up with "Rofl, Ckool, Wicked, Nam" as my top suspects. FA was one who I went back and forth on and Xyl is kind of the same thing. I think Serial was my other option, but I had a town read on him coming in. So I had either Nam, who I had a scum read on, or Xyl, who I couldn't really decide one way or the other. I went with the scum read.

So, conclusions:
Vermilion is 2 of:

Wicked

Nam
Serial

Xyl

Cerulean is 1 of:
Lowell
Faraday
Molest
Xyl

Ok, Xyl fits as either I think. I still say he could have bussed as his vote was relatively late and Mastin was pretty much going to be lynched. Also, I'm removing Wicked. He's a mason with Hayker.

Vote Nam

you made a valid point against xyl yet still voted nam...

what makes you think nam could be vermillion but not cerulean?

It's a valid point on why Xyl could fit as either scum group as opposed to one over the other. It's not a valid point why he is scum over town.

I don't remember why I put Nam in as Vermilion. Something in my VC analysis.

What is VC analysis? I saw Kmd mention it a few times.

Also, I still don't understand what neighbours are. Can somebody explain to me what they are? Once I get a better understanding, I may be able to give my opinion about it.

Also, what is strawman?

Vote Count analysis. Lynch analysis. Wagon analysis. Whatever you want to call it. It's where I went through a few vote counts and determined a few reads from that.

Neighbors are masons except that they don't know the other is town. It could be town/town or town/scum. The difference between neighbors and masons is that masons know they are town/town.

Strawman is where Player A performs action X and Player B twists action X to be action Y and calls Player A scum for performing action Y, when in reality, Player A performed action X, not action Y.

Example: Let's say I vote you. You haven't voted me or even expressed suspicion on me, but Bob calls my vote OMGUS and tells me how scummy my OMGUS vote is. Bob has strawmanned me.

Looks like an epic backtrack to me. The first post could well be feeling out a test lynch. You aren't saying that you think they are scummy enough to lynch anyway, you are discussing the advantages and disadvantages to lynching one of them despite the claim.

No, I was debating on whether or not Wicked should be lynched because Wicked has been scummy. I wasn't debating on testing the claim with a lynch.

[Kmd4390]

Funny how Spy is right about everyone who has

already flipped

.

[Kmd4390]

@Rofl, Lowell, Faraday, Empkings Alt, Mufasa via 34-35:

WHAT IN THE HELL?

Not all 5 of you can be scum. No way.

What in the hell was that. Seriously.

^This is the only post that mentions living players so far. And it's basically a "you all did something scummy, but can't all be scum" which pretty much says nothing.

[Kmd4390]

Masons when used right are a VERY powerful tool. Normally they're like extra scum though in the games I've been so privileged to see them in.

That's just because you guys read Charter's playstyle as being scummy.

@Kmd-When you did you VC, why was CKD cleared?

I don't believe I cleared anyone. I may have read him as town based on it though. Let me check.

I had him as probably not Cerulean because he was the first vote on Mastin. His not being Vermilion was dependent on me being right about Wicked being scum though. If Wicked is a mason, this no longer holds.

[Kmd4390]

Nam, gut and VC analysis.

[Kmd4390]

Lowell, Rofl can suspect me all he wants. I think he is town and I'm going to continue to scumhunt. Why do you mention yourself and Farady as my targets though? I'm voting Nam and also suspect Serial.

[Kmd4390]

I have this feeling like a few people aren't posting:
Achilles
Lowell
curiouskarmadog
Faraday

This post is a note to myself that they're the ones to look at if I want a lurker hunt.

Lowell is probably scum. Maybe Faraday too.

This post is what I was referring to. Yes, I see that at other times you've looked at other players as well.

This was according to that list. My other suspects weren't listed there.

-kmd's votecount analysis pointing squarely at xyl

I thought you had Xyl as a pick for being my scumbuddy.

Still waiting on reasons from SC, Kmd, and KK. Also I didn't miss count, Kk did and i took his word for it.

I already responded to that.

[Kmd4390]

Nam, you are listed as one of my suspects on the VC analysis. My gut picks you over the other suspects.

[Kmd4390]

True it is WIFOM, but WIFOM can have its uses. If you think I'm a player who would break convention as scum so be it.

You are now awesome. I don't care what your alignment is, anyone who supports the use of WIFOM is awesome.

[Kmd4390]

I've already given my reasons for voting.

Molest, Nam wasn't on either of the two lynches. He voted VP, confirmed cop and Rofl, who is town. I also just noticed that he voted with Mastin and then avoided Mastin's lynch, so I guess that's a connection I failed to see.

[Kmd4390]

Town

Achilles

SpyreX

dvdkid13

Kmd4390

fallen angel

Xylthixlm
Hayker
Wickedestjr

Maybe Not Town

BloodCovenent

Lowell

cateraction

curiouskarmadog
Faraday
Kublai Khan

reveillark

SerialClergyman

The list of people who I don't think are town is getting shorter. Let's try to lynch a scum today, mmm?

I agree with this list if you move Khan to town.

Vote Serial

[Kmd4390]

Why? What was the point of this vote? Imo it doesn't have any point if it has no uses, and it isn't at all obvious what he has done that is scummy.

I think Serial is the most likely player in this game to be scum, so I voted him.

The last neighbour being cerulean makes sense, imo due to the fact the ceruleans killed mole last night.

I don't see any other reason for them to hit mole over say, a mason if they're trying to hit someone they think is town. So obviously they were aiming for opposing scum? The only reason they'd target mole would be a mafia neighbour of their own surely?

Seems fairly sound logic to me.

This makes no sense.

[Kmd4390]

Serial's logic against Xyl is crap. Xyl's stance seems perfectly clear to me.

If Lowell doesn't claim in his next post, I'm willing to hammer.

[Kmd4390]

I was gonna hammer before announcing V/LA, but Xyl unvoted. Lowell's refusal to claim is unnacceptable.

But anyway, V/LA. I'm too busy to even sleep til Sunday, so don't expect to see me online.

[Kmd4390]

I'll get around to this. Been home for about 3 hours and have to leave in 7 hours. Need some sleep. Yes, it's just past 10:30 in the morning.

[Kmd4390]

Really need to catch up...

[Kmd4390]

I've read up and I'd be more likely to vote CKD than Xyl. Still prefer Serial and Lowell in that order though.

[Kmd4390]

order, taken from suspicions in most recent post -- correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a mind reader):
Kmd4390: Serial Clergyman, Lowell, curiouskarmadog, Xylthixlm

Serial is my top lynch choice. Then Lowell for sure. Maybe CKD if we couldn't get Serial or Lowell, but I'm not so sure about that. I don't think I'd support a Xyl lynch.

[Kmd4390]

Prodded. I'll get to this game if I'm still online in about an hour at most.

[Kmd4390]

Quotes? As far as I'm aware, KMD has been voting based off the wagon analysis he did a long time ago. Where do you see him going by gut reads.

I always go by gut reads. Yes, I use my analysis too, but I trust my gut.

[Things people aren't getting and need to]
Lowell, you are saying that it makes no sense to set up a neighbor claim and then back off of it. Ok, but when people start saying "the last neighbor is scum", then yeah, it makes sense to back off of it.

Everyone else, I think Lowell is presenting an arguement that he truly believes.

My read: I don't think Lowell is a neighbor. There's still a good chance he is scum, but I don't see him as a neighbor.

Lowell, you were at L-1 and refused to claim. Why?

Serial, Xyl's argument is that with all of his suspects voting Lowell, if he is right about his suspicions, Lowell has no scumbuddies unless they are bussing him. I don't think Xyl thinks anyone is bussing, therefore, Lowell is town or Cerulean. If I'm correct, Xyl wants to lynch Vermilion which is why he unvoted. Xyl, am I following this correctly?[/things people aren't getting and need to]

If SerialClergyman is town, Kmd will look a

lot

worse here for just sitting the whole thing out.

Faraday looks bad regardless.

Do you mean not taking a stance or not posting during your back and forth? Either one is an invalid argument.

Here's why:
If you say I have no stance, Serial is my top suspect. I have been voting him practically forever and want him lynched ASAP.

If you are arguing that I'm not posting during the back and forth, look for me posting ANYWHERE on MS the last few days. I've been working almost non-stop since Tuesday night, so I haven't been home. When I am home, I don't come online. I sleep. Actually, I even slept in my car between two jobs for about an hour one day. So yeah, been too busy for anything on MS.

If you meant something completely different, please elaborate.

KMD, I have seen you post paragraphs upon paragraphs of detailed thoughts...here you are lurking...why?

Mostly work. I'll unfortunataely be even worse in the next couple of weeks when I leave for a trip.

-----------------------

Questions:
Why is nobody voting Serial anymore?
Why didn't Lowell claim at L-1?
Lowell, why should I not vote you right now?

[Kmd4390]

Serial, Xyl's argument is that with all of his suspects voting Lowell, if he is right about his suspicions, Lowell has no scumbuddies unless they are bussing him. I don't think Xyl thinks anyone is bussing, therefore, Lowell is town or Cerulean. If I'm correct, Xyl wants to lynch Vermilion which is why he unvoted. Xyl, am I following this correctly?

Almost. I don't think he's particularly likely to be Cerulean either - a big part of the case against him rests on the "breadcrumb", and I don't think he's a Cerulean neighbor.

What if he's Cerulean but not a neighbor? TBH, I don't see how alt=neighbor.

[Kmd4390]

Nah, I'm caught up.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Lowell

for deadline.

Spy, I hope you are around to hammer. I'm citing refusal to claim as my reason for voting.

[Kmd4390]

Thought he did.

[Kmd4390]

Bolding mine:

Ok read this page only.

This is a busted wagon. How much credit does anyone get for starting a bandwagon on someone on vacation?

Therefore, I decline to claim.

When I come back Sunday I will sort this all out and pick out the scum.

[Kmd4390]

Lowell (5) - SerialClergyman, Faraday, Hayker, curiouskarmadog, Kmd4390
curiouskarmadog (4) - Kublai Khan, Xylthixlm, Lowell , SpyreX
Kmd4390 (1) - Wickedestjr )

^Fixed.

Also noting the Serial wagon disappearing.

[Kmd4390]

Oh.

Unvote, Vote CKD

Guess I'm leaving now. I WILL be here in the morning if you need me. We still have tomorrow for deadline. So don't do a "Kmd's vote won't move", but don't expect it to move soon. Feel free to hammer.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

Just got home. 3:30 AM. Fun night, but head isn't in the right place. Skimmed quick. Saw hider claim. Want Serial to die. Will lynch Lowell if necessary.

[Kmd4390]

Wait, why is he Cerulean? Do we need a hammer or not?

[Kmd4390]

I have a hammah and am ready to drop it.

[Kmd4390]

You guys are saying he is scum and debating on whether or not to lynch him.

Vote Lowell

[Kmd4390]

Serial needs to die. Just in case I don't make it.

[Kmd4390]

You guys are saying he is scum and debating on whether or not to lynch him.

Vote Lowell

Uh, yeah.. Did you actually read our discussion?

Yep. But if he's scum, he should die.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Serial

That's the only lynch I want to see today.

[Kmd4390]

*KMD - Why did you wait so long to make a post like post number 2203? And also, why did you start posting more? What happened to cause that increase in post frequency?

It was a catch up post. I actually had time to look at the game for a little while, so I threw some opinions out there.

Could everybody post their scumlist please? Thank you.

Sure.

Scum:
SerialClergyman

Probably scum:
Faraday

Maybe scum I guess:
Xylthixlm
SpyreX

Probably town:
curiouskarmadog
Kublai Khan

Town:
Wickedestjr
Kmd4390

^All in order. Scummiest at top. Towniest at bottom.

[Kmd4390]

mod, please prod faraday and KMD

I would like to hear their thoughts BEFORE a claim if we do one.

I also want to hear their thoughts ABOUT the claim.

Why am I being prodded? I posted recently.

I don't see why massclaim was suggested now, but won't stand in the way of one.

Today is the time for massclaim. Definitely. Make sure that when you claim include all pertinent information.

Meta'ing me against twilight is going to be a poor idea. But, with the mason coming out and saying I'm a suspect I'm expecting the wagon.

I'm going to run with KK, CKD, Wicked as town. CKD, of course, isn't CLEAR but that kind of gamble would be something special as scum.

That leaves, KMD, Faraday, Xyl, SC.

Assuming three-of-four its KMD and Faraday for sure.

Now, yesterday really flowed like a town-on-town fight. However, numerically ONE of them all but has to be scum.

Right now I'd lean on that, surprise, being SC. However, on the off chance that the numbers are off I would prefer to go with the pair that I am more confident with.

Unvote, Vote: Faraday

So you want to massclaim, but vote at the end of this post? If we are massclaiming, shouldn't we do that before we start throwing around votes?

[Kmd4390]

mod, please prod faraday and KMD

I would like to hear their thoughts BEFORE a claim if we do one.

I also want to hear their thoughts ABOUT the claim.

Sorry. I hit submit before I meant to, so had only responded to Wicked in the post before this one. I'm caught up now though and just answered this.

[Kmd4390]

Why would I as scum not want to pick a side here?

So you are free to vote whichever way gains momentum.

--------------

I'm vanilla. Serial's turn.

[Kmd4390]

Posting in all my games. After I leave my house around 4:45 EST tomorrow morning, I won't be home to post until Tuesday. Whether I post before then or not depends on whether or not I get brief laptop access.

[Kmd4390]

Wow, I was dead on about Serial. Not on Kublai though. Well played.

Ok, why'd I claim vanilla? Well. I didn't claim when Molest did because he was never in any danger of being lynched. After that, everyone had come to the conclusion that the neighbor was scum, so I saved my own ass. I didn't claim during Lowell's situation because I thought he was legitimately scummy and worth being lynched.

Good game scum.