Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[VP Baltar]

Hey everyone,

Just letting you know I'm replacing in and will try and read up as soon as possible (probably tonight and tomorrow, but could be a bit longer depending on my work schedule). I see I'm the leading wagon at the moment...I'll try to respond to accusations against my predecessor if I can.

[VP Baltar]

Heh, you weren't playing much in the last couple games we were together, so I had to track you down somwhere where you're talking a lot.

[VP Baltar]

Kise can you just give me a bulletpoint list of suspicions against M. Rotten?

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I only got through page 12 last night and I'm going to try and get the rest done today. Don't worry rofl, I'm coming to help. Maybe something significant happens, but I'm not seeing the KK thing as being important at all.

In the meantime, I'd like to say this: Mastin, if you spent less time in your posts jerking off to how great you think you are (cause that is what you are doing 70% of the time) perhaps you would be effective at scumhunting. As it is, you're just spamming the thread with a lot of useless crap, and what is useful scumhunting is buried somewhere in there. I think out of the twelve pages I read, there was at most 5 pages of actual game being played and the rest was Mastin saying, "If the best of every player on the site was put together, that would be me!" Seriously, get over yourself and actually learn how to play the game. rofl's gut read minimalism is 10 times more effective than your spamming.

I don't believe you are even keeping what you're saying straight, so just knock it off. If this is your normal playstyle, then you need to change it because it's really annoying and not as pro-town as you seem to have led yourself to believe. Sorry if the noobs who think it's cool get offended, but it's true. Please begin dismantling your shrines post haste. [/venting over so much useless information]

In other news, I'm not sure why people are ignoring MafiaMann and the giant red scum arrow pointing to his head. Just saying.

Unvote

Off to work, I'll try and read the rest tonight.

[VP Baltar]

Don't worry, I'll elaborate when I'm finished reading (unless something drastically changes in the last 12 pages, which is possible).

[VP Baltar]

Because I didn't place that vote, and judging from what I read so far, that's not where my vote will end up when I'm finished.

[VP Baltar]

Haven't forgotten. I just don't do favors for those I think are scum. If VP is trying to build up a defense case, then reading Rotten in ISO is his best chance to see for himself the bad shape Rotten left him in.

Contradictions + Bad logic + Helping the mafia's objective = 6 votes against him.

Oh, Kise, you can stop being bitter anytime. I'm passed where johnny replaced now (I'm on page 21) and I have to say I'm pretty unmoved by the case on him. I agree that his desire for a policy lynch on Mastin is pretty weak, but other than that it is mostly a lot of people going "oh yeah, and Rotten is scummy" without giving much of any new reasoning. I think people saw him as an easy target really.

The reason I asked for a bullet point list is because I wanted to be able to go through and see exactly the charges being levelled against him so I could comment on them if possible. Your complete refusal shows me that you're being lazy and hope this lynch goes through.

Explain "contradictions" and "helping the mafia's objective's", cause I basically just saw a lot of bad logic coming from him.

Also, presuming I live today, who would you like to see lynched and why, Kise?

[VP Baltar]

Ahem, can someone answer my question from earlier?... In words I can understand?

http://www.dictionary.com

[VP Baltar]

Can you believe I got caught up reading in only a two day period. Although it could just be due in large part to slacking at work. Either way, I would say that is what I call service.


Ok, first let me address the "miller" issue. Kublai claimed miller and there is nothing more to worry about here really. As rofl (I believe) said, it will sort itself out long before the game is over. Zazier, you're going way overboard to try and make him look scummy when he really hasn't done anything scummy. Miller vs. Death Miller is a stupid argument and he never really "lied" about anything. Time to get over it and move on.

Next issue is johnny. If someone has an actual point they want me to respond to, then state it. If not, then you'd just sheeping along and hoping my lynch goes through.
-----------------------
First player to be addressed will be the scumbag MafiaMann (sorry, last twelve pages didn't do much in your favor).

First thing I noticed was in post 87.

So im coming to the conclusion that the miller claim does not change anyones opinion on khan?

What was the point of asking this? Looks like you're fishing for the town response to feel out if you should push the Kublai case or not.

then we have post 109:

Whoa! 5 pages already? Man! I'll read through them all... when I can... But first of all, yay! A mafia doctor (or whatever it is) has been eliminated!

By the other mafia faction most likely which leads me to believe they have a mafia doctor as well.

wtf? literally, that is what my note on this post said. Why is it "most likely" a kill by a supposed other faction. What makes you so sure there is one? why does you assuming there is another faction lead you to believe they have a doctor as well?

In post 116 he attempts to explain why he thinks there are two factions:

i believe Mastin mentioned somthing about to mafia factions early on.

Again, what? That's a pretty crappy reason for assuming there are two mafia factions. Here's a more likely answer: you have inside knowledge of the setup.

Around post 357 MM gets into with Hayker and tries to paint him as lying, which he clearly was not. You know who do like to blow things up to be more than they are?Scum.

When Hayker basically proves that he was simply wrong about something and was not lying, MM has to backtrack:

You can say something without it being a fact you said you believed you were most likely wrong but told people it anyway. That is misleading and not helpful.

There is an interesting exchange between MM and kcool around the time of "Hayker coaching" incident. Keep in mind that he had just VOTED HAYKER!

So, as a recap, FA and kcool were having a little spat and Hayker stepped in to say kcool needs to be careful what he says. FA then asks kcool if he's trying to coach.

MM steps in and says:

Maybe hes being helpful?

So, you think the guy that you find scummy enough to vote was just being helpful? Why wouldn't you think he was coaching his partner?

Then FA votes kcool (which looks suspicious on its own). MM questions why he would vote kcool if he really thought Hayker was coaching him.

Your voting Ckool because hayker was advising him?

Once FA shows him he's not backing down from the vote. All the sudden MM "Major FoSs" him, not because of his relation to Hayker (who he finds scummy) but rather for being defensive.

Major FOS on Ckool

Not for all that other stuff but mainly for post 390.

If your town you shouldnt get so frustrated you should continue scumhunting.

Town do in fact get frustrated. It's not a scumtell really. Nice try to align yourself with the wagon if need be though.

Another good point against MM comes in 509:

I said it was pressure because i was worried people would take it the wrong way and say I was being too aggressive.

As Zazie pointed out, this is ridiculous. You shouldn't be worried about people taking it the wrong way or seeing you as scummy UNLESS YOU'RE SCUM.

Combine with this the fact that his posts and are often short and he has been playing tentatively all game and you have an open and shut case. Book 'em, Dano.

Vote MafiaMann

-------------
Mastin has been quite annoying most of the game and spamming the thread is a good technique as scum to make you unreadable. Putting so much useless information in your posts and parsing every clause of a sentence makes it so no one can go back and look for your stances on players. Why do you think this is helpful to the town?

Why do you repeatedly bring up how pro-town you are?
Why do you say you try to get into trouble so the town questions you? What is pro-town about this?

Here are a couple more things:
quote="Mastin 291"]You didn't answer one of my questions--

Why didn't you immediately say you were an Emerald Miller?
You initially said just Miller. [/quote]
This is a load of crap and trying to lynch someone on a technicality. KK gave his role not his flavor.

It had a purpose, involving how much flavor text you're given in your PM. (Like why you're a miller, why you came to Emerald City, etc. Standard Flavor stuff.)

Fishing for flavor. My role PM doesn't include any of this. I'm willing to lynch you over this alone really.

I probably would have had more points against you but I just got tired of reading your verbal diarrhea after awhile. Like I said before, if you're town it's time to knock it off. If you don't, then please die. I'm asking nicely here.
----------------------------
Now for a special sneak peek into VP Baltar's notes regarding Wicked!

Wicked

Post 251 looks like town appeasement with his opinions, cant' find someone to vote after reading 6 pages! Post 344 is a shitty reason for voting Johnny and says that piggybacking is a good play (ie, excusing his actions).
Perpetually in the mode of "catching up", when will this ever happen?
Post 460 is complete fluff
etc.
-----------------------------
Other people I wouldn't mind seeing catching a case of the dead in the near future include: Redith! Fallen Angel! Achilles!

That is all.

[VP Baltar]

Erm... Don't some of you think for certain that he's scum?... And has he freaked out yet?.....

Why are you asking for the town's opinion? You're votes already on him, shouldn't you know the answer to that second question at least?

[VP Baltar]

Your post seems to be a lot of defense of ckool as well

I see one point where I defend ckool, so please elaborate how I'm doing "a lot" of it. Also, please explain how this is scummy considering you don't know either of our alignments.

I was trying to find out how what peoples opinions were on the miller thing and if it was worth pursuing. If everyone agreed it was not going to change anything then I wasnt going to wast peoples time with speculation on it.

So we're in agreement that you were feeling out the town's feelings then. Good.

Um ive been over this a couple time I belive mastin may know somthing and he was hinting at it

So why are you not voting Mastin then? What town role would possibly have insight into the number of scum teams on day 1? Why do you describe it as hinting? He blatantly joked that there were two scum groups. Why do you think he was being serious in that post?

Im sorry but if hes stating somthing he believes is incorrect what is helpful about that?

Where did I say he was being helpful? I said you painted it as a lie when it clearly was not.

I dont find anything wrong with advising people on how to play things in future situations.

Even if you believe the advisor to be scum? I barely defended kcool in my big post and you're already wanting to paint us as a pair. I would think someone blatantly coaching would mean something more to you.

If you panic under pressure it leads someone to believe that they have a reason to be worried about a lynch.

I take it you've seen mislynches happen before. Did all of those persons go silently to their death or express no worry whatsoever?

Townies, just like the mafia, don't really like when people take things the wrong way... In fact, it sort of seems like you're trying to make MM's statement seem weaker than it was!... or something...

No, that's not correct. Townies should jus tplay the game. Scum would be much more on edge about being "misinterpreted".

[VP Baltar]

Men?
We're not all the same gender, here. <_<

(Possible scumslip, though. The classic way for the leader of a group to address their group is to call them "men". Like, say, "the men I command are loyal to me". This would fit with a Mafia Godfather-type role.
It's a stretch, though. :/)

It is indeed a ridiculous stretch. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about in your posts. Why even mention it when you should well know that it means nothing? Why not attack him over having like two posts all game and saying absolutely nothing, that makes much more sense. Also, do you really consider things like this scumhunting?

Rolefishing. I will not answer this question.

You were the one rolefishing in the first place. You asked why Kublai Khan did not include a bunch of flavor things in his miller claim. Did you not?

Then show how this isn''t an obv fake-claim.

I'm going to break down the jist of what happened with the miller claim since you guys seem to be losing focus because of it. If my memory serves me, this is how it happened:

-KK claims his role, miller.
-Most people, including you Zaz, state that it's null and he should be judged based on his actions.
-You guys begin to press him about the miller claim for some reason and he says he's a "regular Emerald miller". So, he included his flavor along with his role this time. People flip over this. Again, for what reason I don't know. He claimed the same exact thing, just with flavor this time.
-Now people ask him what kind of a miller he is even though he already said he's a regular miller. He decides to PM the mod for clarification because of his IRC business and apparently you guys have made him unsure.
-The mod PMs him his role right back. ie, it says regular miller so that is what you are.
-People regurgitate these points again and again and again.

While I agree that he shouldn't have doubted his status as a regular miller because that is what his PM said, you guys have to keep in mind that you were the ones badgering him about if he was a death miller or not. Prior to that, I saw no suggestion from him that he could have been anything else than a regular miller. You're being revisionist and using confirmation bias Zazie. Your vote hasn't even moved the entire game has it? I think you've had some good questions put to other players in this game, but you haven't really followed up on much because you're stuck on the miller thing.

I don't personally feel he's as obv scum as you are making him out to be, and I would suggest you at least go through some of your exchanges and look at the perspective of KK being town and be a bit objective about it. If he still looks like scum to you, then by all means keep your vote.

Also, do you really think a claimed miller in a large game is going to be able to ride that claim to victory? Even if he is scum, he put a big target on his back and would likely have multiple killing factions gunning for him tonight. Say we didn't lynch him today, who would you like to see go to the gallows?

I''m not sold with VP''s case, but this is one point I do agree with.

What do you disagree with in my case?

Mastin, why are you constantly trying to compare yourself to Zaz? Zazie, are you concerned about the potential of him buddying?

Every time I've seen a player word their replacement request in this way, they've been scum. <_<

You really think this is a valid scumtell? What grounds do you have for doubting johnny had RL issues?

And with that, we lose any hope of Johnny answering our concerns. :/

Perhaps you can sum up the case. I've asked people multiple times now and have seen nothing of substance beyond him wanting to policy lynch you.

Really, [my playstyle] works well for catching scum--why'd I ever need to change it?

I've yet to see that. In fact, it seems more like you spraying buckshot and hoping something hits. I think if you were more focused you'd be more effective, but that's just my opinion.

Have you SEEN VP play? I've seen him scum twice (...and thought he was town both times. :/), and he was nominated for best performance as scum.
He's difficult to metagame and pro-town regardless of alignment.

Meaning, good player, good insight,
But a player extremely hard to metagame.
(VP, do you have any TOWN games to link me to for contrast? :/)

What is the point of saying this? It looks like you are trying to make the town afraid of me or something. What other scum game did you see me in? All i know if is the one that is ongoing. Also, you can find links to my town games in my wiki.

Why check the last page?

Because that is where I first posted to say hi. I also wanted to see who was being voted and by who so I could compare it to the progression throughout the game. You're saying you would not do something like that upon replacing in?

His name was Johnny Rotten. Not M. Rotten.
Possible scumslip? (M.-->Common abbreviation for Mafia.)

It's how the french abbreviate monsseuir. Also, are you being serious? Do you consider this scumhunting?

Rofl's drop in activity is concerning...

I'm pretty sure he said that he would be ceasing to post content because you guys were acting ridiculous. Also, you should appreciate his meta since that seems to be your excuse constantly. It's a NULL TELL.

I am effective at scum hunting. I just do it differently than most

I'll believe it when I see it.

Explain how scum hunting is "useless junk". I'm scum hunting. Pointing out things I find suspicious, possible scumslips, etc.

I just do it in longer posts.

I won't deny there are some good points in some of your posts, but there is also a lot of unnecessary fluff that makes the good points seem few and far between. This is my main issue. I don't want to read a post that takes me an hour. I have a life. If you cut the fluff out and actually focused on a handful of suspects it would actually be considered scum hunting to me. Like I said before, you are just responding to every little detail and a great deal of it is unnecessary spam. I am clearly not the only person who thinks this and it is clearly something you have heard before. Perhaps you should take advice once in awhile.

A little bit of fluff never hurt anyone...

It's annoying and makes me not want to read your posts. A joke every once in awhile is one thing. Having 40% of your post be composed of it is something else altogether.

Buddying...

How am I buddying with rofl by stating an opinion that I think his playstyle is more effective than yours? That doesn't even make sense.

Let's see. I

-have fun.
-Get us out of the RVS.
-Scum hunt.
-Get discussion going.
-Get suspects such as you from reactions.
-And so on.

My point was saying that your posting style is not as pro-town as you think.
-Having fun has nothing to do with that.
-We would have got out of the RVS either way, and you are inflating your own self-importance on this matter.
-What scum hunting is in there is indeed pro-town, I agree.
-Getting discussion going is the same as your RVS point, and would have happened anyhow.
-How are my reactions suspect? Your posting style is in fact ANNOYING. Explain to me how finding it annoying is scummy.
-And so on is not a point.

Venting on me, when Zaz has posted fluff as well, just in a different way than I do.
What makes you ignore Zaz's fluff, and focus on mine, And result to personal attacks against me?

As much as you would like to believe you two post the same, you do not. Her posts, while plentiful, are nicely broken up and are salient. Yours are a jumbled mess. When she does post fluff, it is in a separate post I can just skim over an ignore. Yours is all jumbled together and unfocused. See the difference? And again I ask you why you are constantly trying to link yourself to Zazier?

Right. So I'm thinking VP, Khan, and Lowell are all scum together.

Because I think lynching a claimed miller over bad points on day one is a stupid play? How much stock do you really put in this theory?

1: Explain how scum hunting is "spamming the thread", and

you clearly have a loose definition of scum hunting. see above.

2: For someone who claims to have read the whole thread, you sure do make a good habit of missing the fact that this has been confirmed as a NULL TELL.

If you say it enough it must be true! At best it's anti-town. Please stop.

If people refuse to read my posts, not my problem.
It's theirs. They'll look scummy for it later on.

Again, people have lives. Most do not want to stare at the computer for an hour or more just to read your posts and then have to make a post themselves. You don't even include a tl;dr of your main points. I don't blame anyone for skimming your posts.

Why do you think this is helpful to the town?

Let's see...

-It's thorough. I let nothing slide.
-If I were mafia, my longer posts would mean potentially more slips.
-It allows me to be detailed in my suspicions,
-It allows me to outline suspicions over multiple players in the same post as an easy reference...
-It allows for a far greater level of freedom...

-Some things aren't worth commenting on.
-Not if people have to fish through a 1500 word post for a slip. Also, this is entirely WIFOM
-Detailed without any kind of focus.
-Easy reference for who though? Say someone flips scum and I as a town person want to find your interactions with that person later. It becomes almost impossible because of the sheer disorganization of your posting style.
-Freedom to do what?

I do nothing of the sort--
I say my actions are a null tell.

Read:
N-U-L-L.
Not
T-O-W-N.

I am pro-town, sure, but there's no point in me bringing it up needlessly. You're stretching.

Things you repeatedly bring up again and again to insinuate how pro-town you are: most scumtells are null against such a "unique" individual like you, you claim sole responsibility for moving the game out of RVS, you inflate your importance in moving the discussion along, you are scumhunting so very very much.

No town player should have to be constantly referencing these things and their actions should speak for themselves. Do you have worries that yours do not?

Emerald is PART of the role.

NOT flavor.

Orly? Care to explain what 'Emerald' does to affect someone's role?

Testing a claimed miller to see if he slipped.
I refuse to say (hopefully I didn't already) whether he passed or failed on that flavor matter.

I call BS. You were rolefishing. And you tried to call Hayker a rolefisher for calling you on it.

-And are basically trying to blackmail me.

wtf? Explain this please.

Also, if you're so willing to vote for me...why the vote for Mafia? (I agree, Mafia does look suspicious--not as suspicious as you, though.)

Because clearly I think he is more suspicious. What is suspicious about me really? Seems like OMGUS and weaksauce against my predecessor more than anything.

I apologize for the long post. Mine will actually get much shorter as I get integrated into the game.

[VP Baltar]

VP is as bad as mastin

I already apologized for it. Now answer the questions I put to you.

[VP Baltar]

I don't assume you're blind, MM

[VP Baltar]

You follow that up by saying why are you worried about being lynched. Double standard he can panic about pressure on him but i try and not get lynched and its because im scum.

It's not the same thing at all, actually. ckool was frustrated and said he was going to stop talking after he answered the accusations posed against him. While I don't agree that is the proper play, it's not scummy in and of itself.

You, on the other hand, were preempting your comments and were feeling out the town's opinion. Cautiousness about commenting and being frustrated are not the same thing at all.

Theres no way i can be sure if hes joking ive been in games when town figures have info and tried to hint it to people. Having insider info does not always mean scum.

Please give me a single town role that would have knowledge of how many scum teams there are in a game and I will shut up about it.

He was giving people info with the belief that it was wrong is this not the definition of a lie.

You are saying he willfully gave incorrect information? Cause I'm pretty sure he said that he said something he may not have been sure about and it turned out to be wrong. These are different. Perhaps Hayker can step in here.

1 It points out the scum tell why would a scum partner do that

I don't understand what you mean, can you please reword this.

No but people besides scum at scummy this is what makes the game work.

If people other than scum can act scummy (and by extension get frustrated about possibly being lynched) wouldn't this be a null tell then?

So why would a townie want to be misinterpreted

No one said that a townie would

want

to be misinterpreted. I said that scum are more likely to actively be worried about being misinterpreted, especially if they are feeling out town sentiments before they make a post, which you admitted was what you were doing. To me, that is a major scumtell.

[VP Baltar]

I played a game in which a character was given a list of ten things that helped to know.

Link

If you say dont do that next time it directs peoples attention towards it scum would not want to point out their partners scummy behavior.

This is complete WIFOM.

[VP Baltar]

Are you referring to the Scribe thing in that link MM?

[VP Baltar]

Mastin, I'm not going to go tit for tat with you for the sanity of everyone in this game. So, I will sum it up for you: you're wrong. A lot.

Some things that should be mentioned as to how scummy Mastin is:

I was trying to bait Kublai Khan, someone who had already claimed, into revealing something which would make his claim obviously fake (too much flavor, too little, inconsistent flavor, etc). I have explained that I refuse to elaborate on if he got it correct, because it'd be anti-town to do so.

^^This is called entrapment at best, but I reiterate my feelings that you were rolefishing.

I have a strong distaste for summaries

Really? I wouldn't have guessed.

Emerald is not a role, nor does it affect role. Learn what flavor is. kthx

The fact that Khan has only two active defenders (VP, Lowell. Rofl did so earlier, but hasn't truly defended Khan other than for the fact that he claimed at exactly the right time and gave reasoning why the claim doesn't work as scum) is more proof in my eyes that Khan's scum, and that his defenders are his scumbuddies.

This makes no sense. I have no problem defending Khan because HE'S MOST LIKELY A MILLER. If I'm wrong then so be it. You clearly don't know my scum meta if you think I defend my buddies.

Zaz does, admittedly, seem to be tunneling a bit.

Just a bit?

He says he doesn't think that Khan's Obv scum as Zaz says.

That doesn't mean he doesn't think Khan is scum. In fact, to me, it implies that he DOES think that Khan is scum, just not obvious scum--yet defends him, anyway.

Anyone else notice this?
I sure did.

Are you serious?
You need to die for repeatedly accusing people of things that they are clearly not saying.

Also, why the hell are you responding to points I put to Zazier anyhow?

What's with people and their shotgun metaphors? :/
(You'd be surprised how many times this accusation has been made.)

I'm not surprised at all BECAUSE IT'S TRUE.

There's that referring to the town in third person thing, again, which is a scum tell.

Everyone, please note that Mastin says that me referring "the town" is a scumtell by referring to "the town".

I saw you in Inventor, and I thought you were town there.

I don't know what game this is, but I'm pretty sure I was not in it.

The fact that it is concerning to me is proof that I do--I haven't heard of rofl doing this in the past, and do not recall having seen it, either.

I've seen him lurk. It's part of his meta. Plus you are making this game very boring for everyone else. I don't blame him at all.

Odd, that you say this, when most of my points are against you and Khan.
Scumslip?

Yep, in the 25 pages of epistles you've written, most of the points were about me, a player who has been in the game for two days. You sure got me.

Really, VP--you're making it sound like you WANT for me to attack you harder.

You're not doing a very good job thus far. Better try harder.

Again, almost all of my scum hunting has been on you and Khan.

If it's pro-town, then you're essentially admitting you're mafia.

Are you seriously this stupid or are you just trying to be irritating?

Because your reactions are NOT the pro-town reactions to my post. I will NOT specify specifics, because it will allow you to adjust your playstyle to avoid it.

or because they don't exist.
-----------------------------------------------------
Let me show you how to be succinct Mastin. I criticized you for always insinuating how pro-town you are:

Things you repeatedly bring up again and again to insinuate how pro-town you are:

And I give you a nice little summarized list that is easy to read.
You say:

Okay, let's shoot these all down, one by one.

Then you say:

I do not....Blah Blah Blah

And finally you say:

My actions are always pro-town in nature.

I rest my case.

I made clear, logical arguments against Johnny. I just won't summarize them because a summary loses part of the message.

And the lack of anyone on the Johnny wagon being able to bring an actual summary of the points against him continues.

NOBODY has ever gotten away from an accusation on me without later regretting it.

^^Everyone please note Mastin trying to scare you into not voting him....now proceed to vote him please.

------------------------
tl;dr

Just scroll through Mastin in post 708 and 709 to see all of the complete BS he is accusing people of.

Here is why you should be voting for Mastin:
-He was fishing for flavor
-He is spamming the thread so you do not take time to read his posts
-He repeatedly asserts how pro-town he is and rather than defending he claims that most scumtells are null against him
-He has refused more than once to summarize any points against JR
-He has misrepped many many people in this thread
-He's OMGUSing anyone who disagrees with him

If you agree with these points please

Unvote, Vote Mastin

Could the following people please explain whether or not you think Mastin is town based on the above points (not necessary if you simply vote):

Faraday, MafiaMann, roflcopter, Lowell, ZazieR, Empking's Alt, ckool5000, Namttam, Kise, reveillark, Mufasa, fallen angel, Wickedestjr, Achilles, curiouskarmadog, dvdkid13, Redith, Hayker.

That is all.

[VP Baltar]

Fishing for flavor, misrepping, OMGUSing tons of people, and claiming your actions are always pro-town are solid scumtells that I am quite sure he does not do all the time.

[VP Baltar]

What makes you fairly sure of that?

Also, voting Mastin is pro-town.

[VP Baltar]

@ VP, roflcopter and all.

I'm not buying the wagon on Mastin. I take issue with some of what he says and some of his conclusions, but at the end of the day I count about 30,000 words from Mastin and I have trouble with about 5 sentences within them. It's just a poor reason for a lynch, I would suggest to you that if you are town, your motivation for voting him is an annoying style mixed with feelings of OMGUS.

If I can go through his last two posts and point out all the misreps and hyperbole in the horrible cases he is pushing, will you vote him? I know I'm coming on a bit strong with this case, but it has nothing to do with egos or reputations. I don't even hardly know who Mastin is outside of one ongoing game I was with him in.

Also, I'm not OMGUSing him. I criticized him in my first content post of the game. That is when he came with a whole bunch of garbage about how I'm scum. KK also criticized him. As did Lowell. Suddenly we end up on a scum team together. A theory he claims has a 60% likelyhood of being correct. That's just being ridiculous, and to me it looks like scum trying to strong arm the town.

Spamming the thread could be a valid scum tactic because who is really going to read all that stuff? Do you think on day 3 or 4 you would be able to read Mastin in iso? At best it's anti-town.

Also, constantly stating you are pro-town is a scumtell in my book. It work on a psychological level to reassure people through its repetition. I mean, don't you find it a bit ridiculous for someone to say that their actions are "always pro-town"?

Not stating the case against me could be a scum tell. I asked many times. My feeling is that there isn't much of a real case there, so stating it in bulleted points would show how weak that wagon is. No scum wants to do that because they still think I'm a viable mislynch.

Misrep and hyperbole evidence will come sometime today when I have time to go over his posts. I will also include the completely awful reasoning he has in some of his other points. I have seen mastin as town, and he definitely did not make such bad points in that game. I think he is reaching for cases here.

As far as the OMGUSing, I encourage you to look at how Mastin flips out as soon as some of the replacements start attacking him.

re: paying attention to other people. Don't worry, I am. I brought a decent case against MM. However, I also mentioned mastin in my first content post. He has acted scummy, and I probably wouldn't have pursued him if he didn't start bringing such horrible cases against people. It is clear he is thrashing about now that the easy targets of KK and JR have come into a bit of doubt.

[VP Baltar]

then you pointed out that this was a large normal, and now I'm beginning to get a hunch that Khan is scum.

What does that have to do with anything?

Do you believe Khan's miller claim? Do you find the reasoning as to why he is lying to be good reasoning or not? What do you think about ckool and hayker's behaviors in this game? What kind of reads do you get from Zaz and Mastin?

Yes, I believe Khan is who he says he is.
What lie? Please explain where he lied, preferably with quotes. Keep in mind a lie is something that is PROVEN to be untrue.
I think ckool right now is town, hayker I'm less sure about.
I'm not liking Zazie's overall play this game, but I get a town read.
As far as Mastin goes, did you read my giant post? What are your feelings on Mastin and why are you not voting him?

[VP Baltar]

Are you saying that piggybacking is a bad thing?

That is indeed what I am saying.

What in post 460 do you find useless?

Your question to Zazie didn't seem to have a point to it. Comment on Empking being Empking said nothing.

What was the question to Faraday supposed to indicate? Did he do something scummy?

Question to Achilles are ok.

Question to dvd was already pointed out if my memory serves me.

That is why I called it complete fluff.

[VP Baltar]

If Khan already told us he was a miller, than what is the problem with asking for more flavor?

Because Mastin was asking for things like 'why you came to Emerald land' and other backstory crap that is not in my town pm. He was clearly trying to find out what the flavor in the town pms is so if he had to fakeclaim later he'd be believable. That is rolefishing. He disputes this and claims he was trying to set a trap, however when Hayker (I believe) asks him if his pm contains any of that kind of information Mastin calls it rolefishing. This is indicative of how he has been trying to have it both ways all game.

I don't believe that this is true, because there are people that are willing to get rid of him during the day, so it would just be a waste for the mafia to kill him during the night.

There is such a thing as pro-town killing roles.

2) Achilles wins scummiest and my vote. unvote if necessary, vote: Achilles I'd urge you all to read him in iso, it's not a pretty sight.

Thank you, I'm glad someone else has noticed this.

If he's the scummiest, why are you not voting him?

Also, explain why Mastin is town...you failed to do so?

[VP Baltar]

This is mostly for SC to show him my point about Mastin's misrepping and straining to make a case against his targets, but encourage everyone to read it. However, this is likely to be long and if you only want to skim with it, I'm cool.

Misrep, Shoddy reasoning, and Contradictions: A 45-point Review on Why Mastin is Scummy

By VP Baltar

For the purposes of this academic analysis I shall be reviewing post 708 and 709. This is merely a small cross section of his posts in this game, and yet there is a huge amount of scummy points and absurd stretches of logic being made here. Let us begin with 709 since that isn't about me as much:

Point 1)
First he claims that lowell is buddying with me because he said this:

Very happy with VPs first post. His take on the miller situation is well put (Zazie's pursuit of it looks worse than KKs response to said pursuit), as is his take on mastin's post-walls of idiocy.

All I see here is mild agreement. What I think is far more likely in this case is that lowell said that mastin makes "post-walls of idiocy" and mastin is OMGUSing becase he took it personally. As far as I know this is the only real time that lowell even mentions me. To propose it is buddying is absurd hyperbole. If this is Mastin's definition of buddying, he would have to extend it to anyone in the game whoever agreed with anybody else.

2) Khan asks Zazie if she is a Lyncher. Mastin claims this is rolefishing, but how can someone be fishing for an anti-town role? More false accusations.

3)

ZazieR and Mastin jumped on and demanded more information than I had ("What kind of Miller?!").

This seems to contradict with what you said earlier--didn't you mention knowing what type of Miller you were?

An unquoted accusation that makes no sense. Khan claimed miller. Zazie and Mastin (and a third part I think, perhaps Kise) did demand to know if he was a miller or death miller. These are facts, so what is the contradiction?

4)

Because, as shown, there is a clear difference between Emerald and not-Emerald.
Emerald *role*--town.
Not Emerald *role*--Cerulean or the other mafia faction.

This has already been pointed out to be utter crap. Mastin repeatedly comes back to this point, which is really insignificant and it makes complete sense why someone would just say miller. Just look how much he harps on this point in 709. Again he is stretching to make something that isn't really scummy look scummy.

5)

Unless Mastin is trying to claim that there are multiple townie factions or independent survivors in this game.

Not only is this 1: Baseless speculation,
but it's aslo
2: Rolefishing.

Khan says Mastin may be implying something about the setup of the game. Mastin claims it is rolefishing. These are not really related, but accusing someone of rolefishing makes them sound scummy. Misrep.

6)

Failing to specify the Emerald part is a HUGE scumslip.

If it is such a HUGE scumslip, why is he voting for me? More exaggeration. My feeling is that because I'm attacking him harder than Khan, he feels the need to reciprocate.

7)

If I give evidence to support that my supposed "scummy activity" is really just a null tell from me, then it's no longer a scum tell, and can be ignored, because it's my natural playstyle, a null tell, and not a scum tell.

Again pointing out how no one should be calling him scummy. How dare they! Everything is null against Mastin.

8)

VP has topped my scumdar for his posts this game, and add to that, Johnny's play. (I'll work on that PBPA if you REALLY want to know the accusations against you THAT badly, VP.)

Empty threats of long posts, which no one wants to read. If I'm so blatantly scummy, then why can't the general ideas at least be summed up? I've asked and asked and have seen jacksquat. Also, why has no one else accused me of being scum if it's so completely obvious?

9)

Baltar looks obv town to me, and the Johnny Rotten wagon itself was weird.

Odd, to me, he looks obv scum, and the wagon was fueled by legitimate reasons, albeit mostly unexplained by the voters. ("All the reasons have already been said"<--Most common reason for bandwagonning Johnny.)

I agree w/ the earlier rofl post about why miller claim won't let him live to endgame.

The question is:

Did KHAN, the person MAKING the claim, know about it before rofl said it?
If not, then he easily could've done it, thinking it was the correct move, but later realized too late that it was a tactical error.

This is complete WIFOM.

10)

Mastin, on the other hand, I'd say you have contradictions in your play, and I hate contradictions.

My play is consistent, if you know what you're looking for.

Translation: It's not my fault if you find me scummy, and I will not answer any accusations against me.

He restates that here:

But I'm even MORE different than an average player...

11)

It was a trap, on a player already claimed.
Those rolefishing me are asking for information from me, when I have not claimed.

This is being hypocritical at best.

12)

Me simply stating facts.
NOBODY has ever gotten away from an accusation on me without later regretting it.
-They'll face walls of text
-IF they get me lynched, they'll often be lynched the next day
-And other such various regrets.

More empty threats meant to divert attention away from him.

13) Hypocritically accuses rofl of tunnelling while letting Zazie off the hook as only having "a bit of confirmation bias". Zazie has posted far more in this game and hasn't moved her vote at all. Rofl has voted for more than Mastin. Again, Mastin is lobbing accusations at his detractors while giving those who agree with him a free pass. Sure sign of scum trying to go with the flow and not draw unnecessary attention.

14)

So?
It's true; I can support it with meta.
What's the problem with that?

Again pointing out how his scummy behavior shouldn't apply.

Ok, onto chapter 2, Post 708

15)

It is indeed a ridiculous stretch.

I point out the possibility. I admit that it's doubtful, but would you rather have me ignore a potential scumslip?
You're complaining about me not doing enough scum hunting; comments such as that one are how I do mine.

I point out that his point is bad. He admits that it is "doubtful". He tries to claim he is being thorough, but this is completely illogical. If he was really trying to point out every possibility then he'd still be on about page three with his reading. What is far more likely here is that he's throwing mud and seeing what sticks, a common scum move.

This point is repeated about his other ridiculous scumslip he references here he tries to insinuate that Mufasa using the word "men" in his post is a scumslip:

I mentioned it because it was a possible scumslip.
What more do I need?

You need logic, descretion and a general reading ability. Throwing mud again.

16) Still on the point of the ridiculous "men slip", I ask this:

Why not attack him over having like two posts all game and saying absolutely nothing, that makes much more sense.

Because, in a game of this size and with as active posters as we have here, that level of activity is nothing to be suspicious of.

I ask him why he didn't attack mufasa over an obviously scummy action, such as having only two posts. Mastin tries to justify this, while he thinks the "men" thing is a possible sign of scum. How much worse can your logic get?

17)

How is pointing out a possible scumslip NOT scum hunting?

So, he is claiming that pointing out irrelevant and illogical things like that above is really scum hunting. This is my point about his giant walls. People aren't really reading them for actual content and are letting a lot of garbage pass as actively scumhunting, which it clearly is not when you look closely at it. Quantity =/= Quality

18)

I was trying to bait Kublai Khan, someone who had already claimed, into revealing something which would make his claim obviously fake (too much flavor, too little, inconsistent flavor, etc). I have explained that I refuse to elaborate on if he got it correct, because it'd be anti-town to do so.

Apart from justifying his rolefishing, he is saying he won't point out whether he belives Khan 'got the answer right' or not and claims it would be anti-town to do so. Why is would it be anti-town you ask? Answer: it's not.

I'll fill everyone in on what the real case is, Mastin doesn't have an answer because he was rolefishing. Furthermore, it became obvious that Khan did not have extra flavor just like the rest of the town, and Mastin does not want to acknowledge this because it would detract from trying to get a mislynch on Khan. Don't you think if Khan had actually gotten it "wrong" Mastin would have been all over it? He has certainly said that he isn't the type to let things he considers scummy to slide.

19)

On a side-note, it's a scum tell to quote the summaries I make and use the summary as the entire logic behind the statement/conclusion from it when the entire argument does it better than the summary, in my opinion.)

Being succinct is not a scumtell. More mudslinging.

20)

Emerald isn't flavor--

Yes, it is. I asked him what an Emerald does to affect a role and he couldn't answer me. The fact that he wants to argue over definitions such as what a role is and what flavor is when he is clearly mistaken shows he is overdefensive scum.

21)

One should NEVER be unsure of their role. If you have a question,
ASK DURING THE NIGHT.
We have all of Night Zero to clarify details like this.
If I were a miller, I'd definitely ask any question regarding the type of miller I am during the Night Zero chat.
It's the best time to do things.

Claims that because Khan didn't do something the way he would he is scum. This is a ridiculous justification for your argument. Also, I highly doubt Khan had any question about whether he was a miller or death miller until you guys had an aneurism over it. He clarified because you asked and then you claim he is scummy for clarifying for your benefit. You coaxed him into asking and then justified your forgone conclusion from that fact. That's entrapment. You know who does that: scum.

22)

The fact that Khan has only two active defenders (VP, Lowell. Rofl did so earlier, but hasn't truly defended Khan other than for the fact that he claimed at exactly the right time and gave reasoning why the claim doesn't work as scum) is more proof in my eyes that Khan's scum, and that his defenders are his scumbuddies.

More ridiculous assumptions and bending of facts to fit his viewpoint. Rofl hasn't defended Khan, he says. Orly?

kublai khan is town, and wins the common sense award for knowing what to do as a miller

no mastin, backing up your kublai khan vote with the fact that he claimed miller is not "icing on the cake" and i will not let you pretend its part of your meaningless antics, its scummy and you will now be lynched. trying to unconfirm a player who is now as good as confirmed town will not stand on my watch.

once you have claimed miller the following things become true:
1) you are locked into that claim. as scum, this means you will not have the option of doing any of the following things: counterclaiming a power role in lylo, fakeclaiming an investigative/protective role with a false guilty/protect, adapting to a changing game environment such as discovering that the setup may be all vanilla, etc. there are many ways for you to find yourself in a situation several game days later where you are simply fucked because you locked yourself out of the right strategic move as scum.
2) no matter how your claim plays out, there is just no freaking way you're living to endgame. one of two things will happen - a vigilante will either not believe you or have no better idea who to shoot and will take the safest vigilante shot in the history of the game of mafia, the claimed miller, or an opposing scumteam/sk will come to the point where they need to start killing semi-cleared players because cleared players are the scum's SINGLE WORST NIGHTMARE and they will end up killing you.

therefore we are never, ever lynching kublai khan

i'm getting the feeling that people are posting without having actually read the entire thread. for reference, this post is very important, and if you are still discussing kublai khan right now i would like you to read it and then explain why you think its still in the town's best interest to spend time and energy debating the miller claim.

we're still not lynching the claimed miller, sorry zaz

Ok, I think I've effectively proven my point. I can almost guarantee this is still rofl's stance. You can ask him if you'd like.
*sidenote* looking at rofl in iso I see another incident here where he points out an early incident of Mastin rolefishing

23)

Quote:
While I agree that he shouldn't have doubted his status as a regular miller because that is what his PM said,

If you agree with the scum tell,
Why aren't you voting for him, then?

Misrep. I never believed it to be a scumtell. I said he shouldn't have doubted it just because you guys were being stubborn. Doubt isn't a scumtell. Even if I actually believed this to be a scumtell (and I don't) why would that mean I have to vote him? It doesn't. Mastin is just trying to add weight to his argument by implying that I'm contradicting myself.

24)

Zaz does, admittedly, seem to be tunneling a bit.

Another free pass for Zaz, while he attacks other players for tunneling. See point above why this is scummy.

25)He answers every single point I make toward Zazier. What was the reason for this? I don't know.

26)

I don't personally feel

he's as

obv

scum

as you are making him out to be

See emphasis.
He says he doesn't think that Khan's Obv scum as Zaz says.

That doesn't mean he doesn't think Khan is scum. In fact, to me, it implies that he DOES think that Khan is scum, just not obvious scum--yet defends him, anyway.

Anyone else notice this?
I sure did.

I mean, do I even really have to point out how much of a misrep of my position on the Khan situation. Because I try to be a reasonable person an mention the remote possibility that Khan could be scum, Mastin tries to twist my words into really saying that I DO think he is scum. This is typical scum semantics arguments and misrep.

27)

(Same with you, VP. I prefer to hold back on PBPA's at this point in time, and don't do summaries of suspicions without a PBPA most of the time, so if you want the accusations against you, it'll be a huge PBPA-style post. I think we can both agree that this would be, at this time, a waste of time and effort.)

Says he can't provide suspicions on me because he'd have to do a PBPA, and yet he has been able to state his suspicions on many other players in this game without doing an entire PBPA. What makes me different? Also, why can't he state general things (ie lurker, misreps often, OMGUS, etc.etc.) without doing a PBPA? The answer is that he doesn't have a strong case and would rather not going down the alley of making weak accusations.

28)

Also, do you really think a claimed miller in a large game is going to be able to ride that claim to victory?

Old news. Rofl said this already. I think it was a tactical error from Khan, who didn't think of the consequences a miller claim would have, and he's forced to defend himself now.

Notice how he first tries to discredit this point as "old news". Then rather than answer my question he states why he thinks Khan is scum. It's a valid point and he can't refute it, so he deflects back to Khan.

Not only that, but he then accepts that I am correct in the next quote:

Even if he is scum, he put a big target on his back and would likely have multiple killing factions gunning for him tonight.

Exactly why it was a tactical error, one which Khan likely overlooked.

He accepts that he is likely to be killed at night, but says this proves why Khan is scum and we should waste a lynch on him.

29)He claims that the words JR used in his replacement request are scummy, which is utterly ridiculous WIFOM. How could anyone have any possible legitimate insight into this?

30)

Me?
Sum things up?

In theory, possible.
In reality, summaries only convey part of the message; I can't deliver it all without doing a PBPA.

More refusal to state any actual points against me. see above.

31)

People who fail to see how I am scum hunting, and how I have caught scum before with this tactic, will be far more likely to be scum--especially when I am targeting THEM.

Ridiculous inflation of self-importance. Again trying to say that you if you don't agree with him and his method you are likely scum.

32)

Commenting on only my suspect's posts and taking the automatically most scummy interpretation in order to push for their lynch.
Current primary target: VPB.

Still want me to focus, VP? That's how I would.

Threats instead of scumhunting.

33)

It looks like you are trying to make the town afraid of me or something.

There's that referring to the town in third person thing, again, which is a scum tell

I've pointed this out already. He says referring to the "the town" is a scumtell, while referring to "the town". Also, how exactly does one not refer to the town in the third person? It's a collective group, and is therefore always third person. Misrep, mudslinging and generally bad logic all in one!

34)

I saw you in Inventor, and I thought you were town there. I saw you in an ongoing game, thought you were town. I have heard via your nomination for Best Newbie that in your first game, as scum, you played very well. And if I looked at your posts there, I'm sure I'd think you were town there as well.

Tries to frighten the town with my meta and because I got a Scummy nomination. Bringing this up isn't even valid as a point against me because he claims that I always look pro-town. It's all psychological games that just happen to work in his favor.

35)He asks for links to my town games. I tell him they are readily available in my wiki. His reply?

I find it to be a slight town tell to post the links yourself, and a slight scum tell to not.

(You failed that test.)

So I'm scummy because I directed you to the exact place where you can find all of my town games rather than choosing which ones reflect best on me and posting them in the thread. This is the height of idiocy.

36)

Because that is where I first posted to say hi.

The logical thought process is to go to page one, post your hi message from there, and then go back to page one to start rereading. It's what I've always done. Because it makes sense to me.

I also wanted to see who was being voted and by who so I could compare it to the progression throughout the game.

Iso-mod does this better than anything else.

You're saying you would not do something like that upon replacing in?

I go to the first page and immediately start reading. When I reach the bottom of the first page, I type in the Quick Reply box my Hi, hello, etc. post and then get to page two.

Again we have an incident where Mastin is calling someone scummy because they didn't do something the way he would. Not only is this not a scumtell in any, way, shape or form, but it is an illogical point coming from a player who claims to be so "unique" and does things differently from everybody else.

37)

I won't deny there are some good points in some of your posts,

Odd, that you say this, when most of my points are against you and Khan.
Scumslip?

Give him an inch and he takes a mile. I try to cut him some slack and say that

some

, which does not necessarily mean many, of his points are good and he tries to turn this to say that I'm claiming scum. The heigh of idiocy continues to rise. Additionally, as I already pointed out, he is saying that most of his scumhunting has been on me, which is completely not true considering I replaced 25 pages into this game. You don't have to be a genius to figure out why this is a lie.


38)

I respond to fluff with fluff. Other than that, I might make a fluff response occasionally, but not often. Most of my posts are filled with scum hunting. You're just afraid to see it.

Admits to, and then excuses his fluff. Then threatens me.

I'll focus on you and Khan, a handful of suspects. I'll scum hunt against my primary suspects and make good, logical cases against them.

Really, VP--you're making it sound like you WANT for me to attack you harder.

More threats, very little scumhunting.

39)

My point was saying that your posting style is not as pro-town as you think.

It is, too.

This basically sums it up. Rather than actually respond to what I'm saying or have a logical discussion he acts bullheaded about it. This isn't necessarily scummy in and of itself, but continuing to spam the thread when asked many times to stop and given reasons why should stop, is definitely scummy.

40)

-How are my reactions suspect?

Because your reactions are NOT the pro-town reactions to my post. I will NOT specify specifics, because it will allow you to adjust your playstyle to avoid it. I want you to continue digging your hole deeper with your reactions to me.

Fails to answer my question other than stating he's right and I'm wrong.

41)

-And so on is not a point.

Most of the other points after that are too minor/repetitive for me to list.

Hence, "And so on".

Or there were no other points and you're stretching to make your arguments seem more valid than they really are.

42)

As much as you would like to believe you two post the same, you do not.

Besides the fact that I have lots of long posts, and she has lots of short posts, what makes us that different, VP?

Repetition of question I already answered, which he even replies to in post 708. ie, actively lurking and not really scumhunting.


43) repeats a shitload of points he already made to pad out his posts. repeating things also helps to psychologically reinforce them in the minds of other players as being true.

44)

People not reading my posts is their problem. If--as mafia--I made a slip, and people failed to notice it due to their own laziness, it's THEIR PROBLEM FOR BEING LAZY.

Again, the world has to revolve around Mastin. I give a valid reason why he should trim his posts down (it makes it hard to review the game later) and his response is 'not my problem'.

45)

-Freedom to do what?

Freedom's freedom. I can do anything with freedom.

Generally, though, it gives me the freedom to scum hunt however I wish to.

This is jibberish.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I'm going to stop here. These are 45 things I see wrong with Mastin, and this only in his last two posts. Some of the points are repetitions on similar themes in his play, but it's all scummy behavior. I really don't see how anyone could possibly be seeing him as pro-town. If anyone needs further elaboration, I'll continue, but for crying out loud just look at how many scummy actions he is trying to get by with.

[VP Baltar]

You don't need to call for anyone to summarize the reasons they found Johnny scummy. You already read through topic, I believe you would have taken note of any arguments against the person you were replacing.

Yes, I do actually. The point in doing it was that as I was reading the thread I saw a lot of people going "yeah, Johnny is scummy" and then vote, but no one was saying much as to why he was scum. The only thing I saw as slightly scummy was calling for a policy lynch, which isn't even terribly scummy. I want people to give me actual reasons why they think he was scummy and I'm still waiting. I don't understand what the challenge is considering he was the leading wagon for a decent amount of time.

Why don't you think KK is scum?

I think I have clearly stated my reasons, but to sum them up for you:

-He claimed miller in his first post, a general sign of town, especially in a game which likely has multiple killing factions.
-The case against him is very weak and has lots of people sheeping onto it because it's easy
-He hasn't done very much that is scummy. This is clearly shown by people only attacking him over the miller claim, even though many people said they were going to disregard it and judge him based on his actions (though I would like to see him scum hunt a bit more rather than just defending against Zazie and Mastin).

Why don't you think Mastin is scum?

[VP Baltar]

How sure are you that Mastin is scum? Did you have a look at Achilles or any of the others that I pointed out?

I feel certain enough to lynch him, and that is all that really matters. No doubt part of this would be considered some sort of "ego" battle because I find his arrogance and unwillingness to be helpful to town very annoying, but he also has genuinely scummy behavior that I think people are ignoring because "he's Mastin".

Keep in mind that not everything in my post above was intended to be "scumtells" per se, but rather to show the bad logic and general uselessness that is going on in his posts. Things like attacking Mufasa over saying the word "men" is not actually scumhunting, yet he is trying to pass it off as such. This is one of my main issues. You say I might not feel he is scumhunting the right people, but that's not the case at all. I don't really care if he wants to come at me all game, I'm a big boy and can defend myself. The problem, for me, is that his scum hunting is not genuine. He's trying to make mountains out of molehills or less. These are things scum do.

I have seen Achilles and I agree that he is very scummy. I'm pretty sure he was on my stated list of people who "need to catch a case of dead". And I do think the case on MafiaMann is quite convincing, but I think the one against Mastin is just as convincing. I pointed out 45 things I saw wrong in only two posts from him, and I didn't even finish reading them because I was tried of typing that post.

His pursuit of the KK lynch does not seem genuine like it does with Zazie, and his pursuit of my lynch reeks of OMGUS. At the very very best I see him as a major distraction to town who needs to be dealt with.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry forgot to mention another alternative wicked:

I don't believe that this is true, because there are people that are willing to get rid of him during the day, so it would just be a waste for the mafia to kill him during the night.

There is such a thing as pro-town killing roles.

Pro-town killing roles is not the only thing he would have to worry about. Even if you work from the premise that he is scum hoping to ride his miller claim to the end, it is still very likely that this game has multiple scum groups and any scum group that is not his own would want him dead just as bad as the town (if not more so). So, you can see why wasting a lynch on a miller in a large game is very useless.

@SC, just to correct you a bit, I noticed above you keep saying "mason" when you mean to be saying "miller".

[VP Baltar]

I offer you a correction of 'jist' and 'jibberish', which should be 'gist' and 'gibberish' - I was just too polite to point them out!

Heh, why thank you!

Explain to me how this is not a solid case that KK was lying about his claim.

You mean the fact that he claimed Emerald miller and then some players badgered him into asking the mod for more specifics? To the best of my recollection he never said anything along the lines of 'when I die I will flip town'. You are implying in your case that he was saying this by claiming Emerald miller, which isn't really the case. If you can quote where he said definitively that his role PM stated what his flip would be before he was badgered into asking the mod, then I would have to agree with you. Like I said, however, if my memory is right, that did not happen. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Also, what do you think about what rofl requoted in post 758?

Mastin could be scum. Some of your points do have merit,i.e. his parsing has allowed him make some things appear scummier than they were. However, having been in the game for a short while, you are making yourself guilty of misrepping just as you accused him of doing(see post 749 before you deny it).

I read the post, I don't really think the points SC brings up are really misrepresenting anything, and I will explain why:

8-This isn't misrepping anything. He disagrees that people have not found me suspicious. However, my argument is that no one outside of Mastin has found ME scummy but has rather carried over suspicions from JR. While I think it is fair to be somewhat suspicious of me if you were of JR, my point is that I haven't really seen anyone make any actual points regarding my play alone. Furthermore, I say that Mastin is making "empty threats" of long posts against me, which is true. He cannot sum up a case against, or at least has yet to do so for how much he has been talking about it.

13-

You accuse Mastin of going with the flow and not drawing unnecessary attention? Sorry, what? His tunneling is a minor mistake that could be indicative of scummyness, your accusation reeks of a misrep.

I think this is a case of SC misreading, because i don't understand what he is saying in relation to my point #13. Here is what I said:

13) Hypocritically accuses rofl of tunnelling while letting Zazie off the hook as only having "a bit of confirmation bias". Zazie has posted far more in this game and hasn't moved her vote at all. Rofl has voted for more than Mastin. Again, Mastin is lobbing accusations at his detractors while giving those who agree with him a free pass. Sure sign of scum trying to go with the flow and not draw unnecessary attention.

The things I point out in this post are facts that deal with voting patterns. I don't see how I misrepped anything.

26-

I agree with Mastin. Your post made it look very much like you thought KK was scum but had some doubts. It looked like fence sitting, certianly not like you believe the miller claim and are against a KK lynch.

Agreeing with Mastin does not mean I'm misrepping anything, just simply that he doesn't agree with my interpretation of what Mastin was doing. I think I have made it abundantly clear that I think KK is most likely town. Do you feel like I have been doing much fence sitting on the issue? I mean, Mastin has said again and again that I'm defending him very hard and we're probably scumbuddies for it. That is what I believe Mastin was misrepping in that post. I don't think anyone can deny that I have been against the KK lynch for my entire time in this game.

More over, your appeal to other players dislike of mastin's post style is a incredibly suspicious play. You are using it to further your desire to get him lynched because your case is not as strong as you would like. I would vote for you before I vote for Mastin, however I'm leaving my vote on KK because I believe my logic is solid.

I believe my case is plenty solid. Even if you don't agree with every point I've made against him, they are still abundant like the stars in the sky. I mean, I was only analyzing 2 posts out of everything he has said in this game and came up with that much stuff. How much scummy behavior would it really take before you lynch somebody? The post you directed me to only made one point against KK, and I think even that can be logically explained. I realize I'm coming on very strong with this case, but I feel that this is the only way people are going to listen.

1)They absolutely do carry over and I don't believe I ever implied that. While VP and Johnny are different people they have the same role.

Actually you did. It's in the post you directed me to:

The JR wagon is useless when there is no JR. I was voting him to get him to talk more but with him gone there is no reason for this.

You say the wagon is "useless" because JR is gone, but in your post above you say that all of the points against him still apply to me. If you really thought they still applied than you should have left your vote there.

If anyone is trying to take advantage of sheep it is VP. Encouraging voting without reasons encourages play which provides little information, and is definitely not a town move.

Yes, I surely am using my powers of hypnosis over other players. You can't blame me if they don't post reasons (though I am pretty sure I have thoroughly covered them).

Point out the sheep

Empking most definitely has sheeped onto it, as has ckool, which you pointed out. I think your reason for being on it isn't much more than a rephrasing of things Zazie has said, so it is mild sheeping in my eyes. Other players who have mentioned KK seriously include Mastin and Kise, who I feel are definitely just repeating things Zazie has said. Look at how often Mastin has said something along the lines of 'That was a good post Zazie!' and also how much he has harped on the miller/death miller thing, which Zazie first brought up. Apart from that I would have to do some rereading, but I am very certain that some of the less active players have repeated Zazie's opinions and said they are thinking about voting KK.

@VP Baltar (746): Wow. You just made my rebuttal seem paltry in comparison.

Can't forget to fight fire with fire. Obviously, I had better be right about you or I am going to have to take drastic measures that would involve hunting you down and killing you. Probably with fire.
---------------
More apologies for long posts. Hoping this comes to an end soon.

tl;dr

My kitty cat is adorable!

[VP Baltar]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who saw that.

[VP Baltar]

Mastin stating that I'm OMGUSing because he was voting for JR is quite a load. Plenty of people were voting for JR, and I've barely mentioned any of them. Once I criticised you over your playstle and then later, after more careful reading, over all your scummy actions, that is when you became convinced I was scum.

re: null tells. You keep repeating this mantra and it seems less true every time you say it. I already pointed out how you are saying this while also saying things like "my actions are always pro-town". I can quote that again if you'd like. It's all a head game. Hell, in your last posts you're trying to say that you misrepping people's positions is a null tell. That is completely ludicrous.

Also, notice how Mastin is trying to softclaim a powerrole above in 782. The scare tactics continue.

re: Khan-VP-Lowell scum team- Again, this is stupid if you're such a meta lover. Newbie 696 I bussed my partner on Day 1 and that was probably the most I have ever defended a scum partner. In Amnesiac (which I don't know if the original threads exist still or not), I bussed CheifSkye4 and she was the first wagon that formed in the game. It ended up falling apart before her lynch, but I would have followed through. In One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, I bussed Josh Lyman on Day 1 for the lynch as well. You can also look at the ongoing you are in and see where I was on those lynches.

For someone who claims to care about meta so much and has warned everyone about my scum meta, you certainly don't pay very close attention.

A theory he claims has a 60% likelyhood of being correct.

Incorrect.

I said 90% of one.
75% of two.
And AT LEAST 60% for all three being scum.

There is a HUGE difference.

VP's conveniently leaving out a large amount of facts again to support his case. What more evidence do you need that he is scum? That PBPA?

That's just being ridiculous,

If it were true, yes. But I specifically said that there was a FAR greater percentage in 1/2 of you being scum, AND said "at least", meaning that the 60% was the MINIMUM.

VP keeps on leaving out things that are inconvenient to him, in order to strengthen his own case and weaken mine.

This doesn't make sense. I say you said it had a 60% likelihood of being correct. Your reply is that I'm misrepping you because you said it had AT LEAST a 60% chance of being correct? My point above is that your odds disproprtionately high you dolt. That is what is ridiculous about that-that you are claiming to have caught an entire scum team without knowing anyone's alignment and are giving the odds at 60% (or apparently more). I don't care who you are, it's nearly impossible and you definitely are not that good of a player.

It is a coin. It has a pro-town side, and an anti-town side.

There is no "pro-scum" side, or "pro-town" side.

Again he claims he never does anything scummy. Also, this magic coin simultaneously has a pro-town side and has no pro-town side. This is what I am saying when I refer to gibberish.

I mean, don't you find it a bit ridiculous for someone to say that their actions are "always pro-town"? [/quote\
My actions always are, though, VP.
Yet at the same time, they're always anti-town.

Now that I call him on saying his actions are always pro-town, he argues they are always anti-town as well. How much more non-sensical can one get. Let me ask you a question, Mastin: If you're actions are always null as you claim they are, do you believe you are above reproach? Should player ignore everything you say as being simultaneously "pro-town" and "anti-town"? If that is the case, then any scumhunting you are claiming to do is null as well.

re: mastin being interested when suspected--this is horrible play if it is true. It is essentially saying that you want to draw town focus away from actual scumhunting because it's more entertaining for you personally.

Yes, you mentioned me, VP. A great deal.
You didn't voice any true accusation towards me, but instead, were targeting Mafia.

Worth noting is that I skimmed most of your posts because they were horrendously long and void of good content. Upon closer inspection, they show how scummy you really are. And thank you for pointing out that post because it shows exactly where your OMGUSing is coming from. I attacked you over your playstyle and lack of real content (which are not personal attacks btw) and that is the exact moment you got up in arms about it. I didn't feel so strongly about your lynch until I looked closer at your posts, but that's life eh.

You have admitted that it is very possible I was laying a scum trap.

Which I did.
(Want your own quotes to prove it?)

I was one of the first people to call you out for rolefishing, so yes, please back this up with some quotes you plan to misrep. Lemme guess, the quote where I say at best it's entrapment, which came long after I accused you of rolefishing? I also don't think entrapment is a valid town tactic. There is a reason its illegal in the law books.

------

Actually KK makes good points in post 785 and I'm not going to continue to respond to Mastin regurgitating the same crap over and over. KK I hope you don't replace out because I think Mastin is lynchable today and then everyone will be better off. I'm sure his scum partners are even considering lynching him at this point.

We're at 7 votes now, we only need four more. SC and anyone not voting Mastin, I ask you to use reason here. You can't honestly believe that Mastin is being effective at scumhunting or helping the town in any way. This matter is only going to resolve in either him or I being dead. Vote for whoever you think is acting more scummy and let's be done with these giant walls of back and forth that are making this game a drag.

[VP Baltar]

Better be careful rofl or it will become obvious that we're scumbuddies together!

[VP Baltar]

Like I said, most of my actions are null tells.

My actions are always pro-town in nature.

Also, repeating yourself is pro-town, because if in your repetitions, there are no inconsistencies, you are showing consistency, which is pro-town.

Inconsistency, ahoy! LAL! More Mastin votes, plz!

[VP Baltar]

So, by breadcrumbed the whole day you mean you mentioned it one post where you claimed about fifty different things including being scum? Where else did you breadcrumb it at?

What grounds do you have for suspecting four killing factions? Even if you actually did block Khan (which I don't believe you did) the odds of hitting scum who sent the kill are unbelievably small.


Sounds believable. (That's sarcasm before you quote it and say I actually believe you).

[VP Baltar]

Actually i'm not seeing where you said that at all (and this is what I'm talking about with your posts, nothing is findable), please link the post where this breadcrumb is at.

[VP Baltar]

Mastin, stop with your replies to pages for a minute and quote your breadcrumbs.

[VP Baltar]

Nyeh. I need to think about this. I don't like your first two examples of breadcrumbs because you claimed a bunch of different things at the same time (which I definitely felt that if you were scum you were going to refer to when you claimed).

The third breadcrumb is more of what I would expect from town breadcrumbing.

As far as the "roleblocker example" I think you could have easily just have been saying that and are going back to it now because it's convenient.

The thing about breadcrumbs is that they have to look intentional for them to be believable. Is there anything else I should know about?

But you can't doubt that I did block Khan, because there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to prove this to be the case.

What evidence? that you mentioned him in a list of several people? Again, your third supposed breadcrumb looks stronger, but I wouldn't call this evidence overwhelming by any means.

[VP Baltar]

Alright, after much thought

Unvote

. That third breadcrumb looks too intentional for me to doubt at this moment. And either way, scum have their target for tonight.

Vote MafiaMann

Previously stated case, plus his unvote of Mastin without any sort of question or reasoning doesn't strike me hard as coming from town.

I need to look over my exchange with him again after this whole mastin sideroad.

[VP Baltar]

Heh, as much as I would like to still lynch Mastin CKD, it's not the best play we could make and I'm sure you probably know this. If the scum in this game have any sense, they will make short work of him tonight and we won't have to read his inane posts tomorrow. We're best to lynch someone else who has been scummy so far in this game.

[VP Baltar]

It doesn't seem to bother you that some people on the Mastin bandwagon have joined without giving reasons. FoS: VP

There comes a point in a mafia game where you just have to pick a target and get that target lynched. Sure, some people hopped on the Mastin wagon without stating reasons, but in fairness what else were they going to say really? I gave a wealth of good reasons for him needing to be dead. I don't think there was a lot more to add. I'm sure there were some scum jumping on that wagon, but that doesn't mean I should stop a lynch from going forward on a person I think is likely scum. The fact that we likely have multiple mafia factions in this game means that almost every wagon until closer to endgame is going to have have scum hopping on it. All I can do is try to get my targets lynched and pay attention to voting patterns for analysis later.

Do you want a PBPA VP? I'm getting the impression, that you don't want one. Are you scared that the PBPA will point out a lot about you.

The fact is that Mastin is behaving stupidly about this and that is why I keep ignoring his giant sized questions. If he has suspicions to bring then he can post them, he does not need my approval to do so. He is harping on this PBPA thing because he hopes it will make it look like I actually care if he does it or not, which I don't. Furthermore, this sprung from me asking what the points on JR were from multiple people and never receiving an answer. It doesn't require a PBPA at all. One only needs to link to some previous posts where the points against him are clearly stated.

To sit there and repititiously scream that I need to give him approval to make a case is dumb. Make your points or shut up, but either way I don't think there is a significant case to be made against me. My guess is that it will largely be comprised of him saying how I'm misrepping him and that I'm using some sort of hidden mind control to convince others that he is scum etc. etc. that he has stated very poorly numerous times in his other posts.

[VP Baltar]

interesting how a claim and some "breadcrumbs" can stop a wagon. everyone was so hell bent on lynching mastin, but he says he is a RB (which i find is a easy mafia claim to claim)...also everyone seems to overlook the fact that he could have easily planned that claim well before the day started. Hell Kublai's interaction with him might have helped him craft that claim....not buying and I think the claim and his explanation of it is shaky at best....

Oh trust me, I think it's a shaky claim at best and I agree that people were hopping off like it was on fire without even looking at the fact that his breadcrumbs are weak, but it doesn't make sense to lynch him now when there are other scummy individuals we could go after. It'd be essentially wasting a lynch because the scum now want him dead as bad as we do. May as well let them do the the work, or maybe he'll be able to block a kill and bring at least some semblance of truth to his claim.

[VP Baltar]

Given that there is likely more than one scum group, Mastin should not survive if they know how to play at all. Even if he is a scum roleblocker, an opposing scum team should be more worried at this point about eliminating their opposition than they are town members who have to lynch them.

[VP Baltar]

Mufasa, you seriously need to make some kind of actual contribution to this game. Unlike emp, I know you are at least capable of trying and you're starting to get on my nerves at this point with this popping in and voting.

[VP Baltar]

I don't think Mafia will take care of mastin during the night either. I really think we should lynch him sooner than later

Why do you think that? He has claimed a powerrole.

Also, how is this game "moving at a snail's pace"? I think this game has gained pages rather rapidly (almost 10 a week I think). Why haven't you commented on anything until now?

[VP Baltar]

[url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 41#1734941]Here[url] is the post where I make my case on MafiaMann. I believe some other players had presented some suspicions throughout the game as well, but I don't remember if anyone actually summed things up.

[VP Baltar]

Gah

Here

[VP Baltar]

Also, no one else should vote for MM until we get a chance to talk this out a bit. You people are wagon crazy. He's at 8 right now.

[VP Baltar]

He gave us a good useage of subtle hints rather he planned this for a later fake claim who knows, but I dont like it.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you like his breadcrumbs or not? If you do, explain to me better what this means.

Also, you skipped my question asking you why you thought Mastin wouldn't be a target for the mafia. Please answer that.

What is it about my case you think is worthwhile lynching MM over?

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote Mufasa

Also, I like how all of the main suspects are scummy to ckool and yet he still can't muster a vote. Certainly not feeling out what is popular.

[VP Baltar]

That's the second time you've voted MafiaMann for about 3 seconds before switching VP Baltar...

Sorry if I'm not comfortable with 7 people hopping on the MM wagon for not reasoning other than what I presented. People are being really lazy this game, and I agree with CKD that Mufasa needs some votes on him for his rapidly changing stances on Mastin.

Also, do you have any thoughts on the game other than my voting?

@ckool--read the thread and you should be able to very easily understand why I voted for Mufasa.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: for no reasoning

Additionally, we have about a week until deadline, so I can always switch my vote back to MM if necessary. Right now I think it's better served elsewhere.

[VP Baltar]

@ SC--well I think I explained my reasoning for getting off the MM wagon for now. The fact is we have 5+ days until deadline and judging from how fast people where joining it without saying much, I would rather unvote for now and come back to it. My main problem is that no one is asking him any questions or really hashing out points against him, but is just going 'I agree with Baltar, let's kill him'.

It is indeed a good thing if people join the MM wagon, but it becomes problematic if no one is really trying to determine why he is scummy. Yes, some people were doing the same thing on the Mastin wagon, but at least

some

of the people on that wagon were trying to question him or show why they wanted him lynched. Plus, in my opinion, once Mastin and I started going at it he looked a hell of a lot scummier for some of the weak "scumtells" he was trying to point out.

Part of it too may just be the fact that MM has gone completely UTR recently. Like I said above, I'd rather hear what he has to say to some of his detractors (if they actually have any questions to put forth) than to rush to the lynch.

As far as commenting on things, I would definitely like to hear your thoughts on what Mufasa said in his past few posts and how he suddenly starting posting when I prodded him about it.

[VP Baltar]

Kublai already claimed. He wanted to claim. In this case, it''s not role-fishing.

He was fishing for flavor, which is part of a role, which is why it's called rolefishing.

So? Scum needs to be lynched. I''m positive that Kublai is scum. So why do I need to change my vote according to you?

Because you need to actually look objectively at your case (which you are not doing at all). No matter how convinced you are, there is still always a chance that you could be wrong and you should explore alternative avenues to see which is actually the best choice for the day. You haven't done this at all.

Would you think that a player claiming to be a doc, would survive till N6 in a large game? Oh, wait. That actually happened. And I think he claimed day 1 or 2. So how come you are so positive that this will happen, when you were in just mentioned game?

The difference is that MonkeyMan was intentionally acting scummy throughout that game to stay a viable mislynch. I'm going to lay out some cards for you because you dont seem to understand what is going on: the more you act like Kublai is a viable mislynch for the scum, the more likely it is that he will survive. If the scum thinks there is no way he is going to be lynched, then they have no choice but to off him.

As an example, look at the same game you're referring to. Zwet and Kieraen could have been lynched in the first two days for their horrible mason claim, but the proper play was to let them live and make the scum do their own dirty work, which they eventually had to do.

Buddying? He agrees with the points I make and the questions I ask. So I''m glad to have him here, and I don''t see why I should be concerned.

Yes, that is indeed the definition of buddying.

He sure said that

I put more accurately what he meant. Why do you think he said he was uninterested? Hint: because you guys want to lynch a claimed miller on D1 instead of looking for actual scum.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, so you agree that his reasoning is bad. The fact is that you're really buzz killing any kind of pressure that was being put on him to make him explain his actions, SC. This is really the point of my vote and it's useless now because you're sidetracking it into my reasoning for voting MM and Mastin. The fact is (which I was forced to state thanks to your questioning) that I am still am going to vote MM for today's lynch. Pressure votes don't mean anything if you say they are there for pressure. So thanks for that.

[VP Baltar]

Zazier, what do you think of Mastin's claim and what KK has said above.

Also, the following people need to post something of substance: Empking, Lowell, dvdkid13, fallen angel, Faraday, Hayker, Namttam, Redith, roflcopter, and Kise.

I have a feeling some of the scum are all too happy to sit back right now.

[VP Baltar]

Hi mole!

pre-emptive hi Kmd!

Have fun with that reread, it's full of awesomeness and win.

[VP Baltar]

Pressure does something if you are asking questions and looking for responses, which you gave no indication of doing.

So you would say I asked no questions to Mufasa? Sure you want to stand by that one?

[VP Baltar]

You state that you don't like how no one was asking any question of MM when you yourself didn't. You reposted a case which MM had already responded to so you hadn't really raised anything new for MM to respond to either.

I completely agree that I hadn't, which is another reason why I wasn't as excited to rush toward his lynch. I need some time to look him over in iso, as well as look over his responses to my original case, to make absolutely sure I think he is the right lynch. The problem also is, however, that people seem to want to put this onus solely on me. I have no problem asking him questions, but I don't think I should be the only one doing it.

[VP Baltar]

I'm rather enjoying Kmd's play-by-play on reread. It's particularly funny because many of the points are pretty comparable to the switches between town-scum reads I went through.

[VP Baltar]

Because people were quite enamored with Mastin when I came into this game. I felt that a lot of people were ignoring him because they weren't really reading his posts. It required more of a focused attack to get people to actually wise up. Furthermore, Mastin's playstyle (lengthy replies) required more from me to respond to, whether I liked it or not. Really, Mastin's claim is the only thing keeping me from voting him because he has indeed acted scummy.

Now, coming out of spending days focusing all of my attention on Mastin I need to reasses my best options. MM was most obviously where I would return first. Then Mufasa finally speaks and it reeks of scum, so I wanted to pressure him. You have effectively put an end to that, however.

Here's a question to you: do you honestly believe that every case a player pursues is done in the same way? How does taking different approaches to different players make me scummy?

[VP Baltar]

Having completely different ways of attacking different players can obviously be a scum tell.

Not really. Everyone approaches the game differently, and thus would require a different approach to catch scum. IMO, there aren't hard and fast rules for catching scum that would apply to every player on this site.

Also, your charge of me distancing from MM is ridiculous for two reasons: 1) We have had no flips and know no ones alignment. 2) I am the person who brought the only substantial case against MM and have never said I would not lynch him today. I very much would.

[VP Baltar]

On to Page 30. Almost there. Can't believe I'm doing all of this in one day.

You're seriously my hero. That or you're insane.

[VP Baltar]

That's another non-answer because you aren't changing your style to effectively catch MM.

That is a mighty fine opinion you have there.

Are you suggesting that your plan for catching MM out as scum is to accuse him and promptly unvote him twice today?

No, that's not what I'm suggesting at all.

[qutoe]But you were never concerned about people not having flipped when you questioned Mastin about buddying. [/quote]
You mean when I said he was buddying up to likely town Zazie? That's not the same thing there, bud.

2) I go by action

Yes, and my action was to make the case and vote before anyone else had put any sort of real pressure on him. Your willingness to base your vote largely off my case and call me scummy at the same time continues to make me less and less comfortable with that lynch.

[VP Baltar]

I was stating that that it was your opinion that my going after him was ineffective. I would disagree with this. I got him to L-3 in a matter of about a day. Second, I was saying what you implying I did by unvoting him was inaccurate. The fact is that people are very comfortable with a MM lynch THANKS TO MY CASE. I can return my vote there at will and he will likely be lynched. That wasn't necessarily going to be the case with Mastin. I'm not sure what you dont' understand about that.

can you show how your change in styles when attacking MafiaMann is a more effective way to attack him than your attack on Mastin?

The point of switching my vote wasn't about attacking MM. It was about putting necessary pressure on mufasa for acting very scummy. MM was (and still is) on the ropes. My attention wasn't needed there at the moment, so I wanted to follow up on Mufasa for a bit. When I feel like it, I can hunt multiple targets at the same time. As it stands, mufasa isn't likely to answer any questions now after I have gone around and around with you.

As far as getting less comfortable with the lynch, it happens anytime someone sits there and badgers me about it. I can understand you wanting to question me over the switch, but your persistence in this line of questioning is where the uneasiness comes from. You seem very eager to get an MM lynch, but if I recall correctly you had some other targets higher on your list before the whole Mastin thing. I think you might have mentioned it before, but why did Achillies go down on your list?

Also, I want to hear from Kmd why he thinks MM is town. I saw a lot of similarities in his reads on people in this game to mine, but this was a major difference.

@Hayker-looking forward to your post.

[VP Baltar]

Well that's a couple days from now, do you plan on contributing before then?

[VP Baltar]

Mufasa, please explain your stance on Mastin's breadcrumbing. Did you think it was good or not? Why did you rapidly change positions from liking his breadcrumbs to not liking them?

[VP Baltar]

@Mufasa-I guess. I still think you were expressing some odd opinions about the breadcrumbing, but looking back at your statements that seems to be a possibility. Could you tell me what your thoughts on the rofl wagon are? What are your feelings on Hayker? Nam? Wicked?

@MafiaMann-I'm actually a bit unsure on your feelings on Khan. You talked about him early when you seemed to be feeling out the town opinion, but after that he seemed to drop off your radar even though he was a hot topic. As of right now, do you feel he is town or scum? Why?

He was giving people info with the belief that it was wrong is this not the definition of a lie.

You are saying he willfully gave incorrect information? Cause I'm pretty sure he said that he said something he may not have been sure about and it turned out to be wrong. These are different. Perhaps Hayker can step in here.

He said he believed he was wrong later so why say somthing that you dont believe to be true. Misleading.

I still want Hayker to comment on this. Hayker, did you believe you were wrong when you made the original statement, or were you later proven wrong about it?

If you say dont do that next time it directs peoples attention towards it scum would not want to point out their partners scummy behavior.

This is complete WIFOM, as I pointed out before. The fact is that someone you found scummy was coaching another player and you defended him when the obvious thing to do would be to believe he was even more scummy. It was a direct change in stance that does not fit with your previous suspicions.


As far as the scribe thing you linked to, something like that definitely would not apply to this game because it is a normal. So, I ask you again, why did you immediately believe Mastin that there are multiple scum groups and use this to justify him potentially being town. Since there can't be a role like that in this game, do you think this raises Mastin's likelihood of being scum?

[VP Baltar]

Have you played with rofl before Kmd?


Can't say I agree with your gut read on MM, but meh. Guess I can't win them all.

[VP Baltar]

I take issue with the fact that you seem to be saying that your goal is to lynch MM rather than to find out more about his alignment. I infer this from the bolded sections. The first you are saying that achieving a lynch means you are effective in going after a suspect. In the second you seem to say that you have the support of others in lynching MM so you don't have to push as hard since you can do it at your leisure. I don't think MM's alignment has been proven so I would question your motive in voting MM.

Please refer to post 960. Are you really not reading the thread that closely or are you just hoping to catch on to substantial sooner or later? Seems like every time you post you have some half-cocked argument against me that is quickly shot down.

My motive in voting MM is that he looks scummy to me. I've stated many reasons why...more than most everyone else...soooo, why do you think my motives are the most suspect?

[VP Baltar]

Happy scumday, kmd!

Care to explain

why

someone should vote for MM, Emp?

[VP Baltar]

unvote, vote: MafiaMann

No one hammer until rofl checks in with what he has to say. Emp can still answer my question. Oh, and MafiaMann should claim soon.

[VP Baltar]

Whoa, MafiaMann's at L-1?... To hammer or not to hammer, that is the question.... 3 Days and seven hours left... If nothing is done before that deadline clock hits two and zero, then I'm-a-gonna-hammah!

I believe he's at L-2 actually, and why do you feel it is necessary to telegraph a hammer?

I understand, but at first I wasn't suspicious of Khan because I would of expected him to claim death miller when he had been asked if he was. Then Zaz pointed out that this was a normal game, which made me realize that he wouldn't have claimed death miller if he was lying anyway. Does that make sense?

No, it really does not.

[VP Baltar]

@VP - What part of it do you not understand?

I understand it fine. I happen to disagree with your interpretation, which is what I was getting at.

If you thought the claim was SO weak at the time, why did you decide that there were others scummier?

Because as much as I would like to lynch Mastin and I think his breadcrumbs suck overall, it simply isn't the best play for town to make in the long term. In the unlikely event that he is telling the truth we'd essentially be shooting ourselves in the foot. I'd rather wait a night or two and see how things pan out before spending a lynch.

This is probably just my lack of reading, but is there anything that can prove this?

Nah, no evidence. But just like 91 we have a named mafia and multiple NKs. Certanly not proven, but I wouldn't doubt it.

The case on him is basically poor play. We do have a deadline and need a majority to avoid no lynch though, so voting him is pretty much necessary at this point.

Or he could read it and decide for himself.

[VP Baltar]

re-reading right now.

How's that going for you? About ready to say something?

I'll wait until he posts, and catch up on things in the meantime.

I think you're farther behind in the game than he is. How about you actually put some thoughts up instead of making promises? Deadline is approaching.

I'm also inclined to policy vote anyone who says 'Oh cheese!'

heh

[VP Baltar]

I had already called you out on not questioning MM prior to that post so I can't be sure if you honestly care to know more about MM or were merely responding to post.

OHHHHH, you mean where you were just regurgitating what SC was complaining about? Ok, no prob.

You still think I'm the best lynch for today? If so, you aren't exactly trying very hard. Does that mean you're probably scum?

re: MM--the problem is that he is claiming V/LA until the 7th and he hasn't posted anywhere else on the site since his last post here. I still think he has been reasonably scummy enough that we can lynch him without worry, but I'm starting to doubt he is going to claim. If anyone on the wagon (or off I suppose) is uncomfortable with this, you need to speak up now and not expect a free pass tomorrow because 'we had a deadline and no other choice'.

Also, we should determine who is going to be around to put the final votes on him over the weekend and not hope that someone is sober enough to drop the hammer before deadline.

[VP Baltar]

L-1...someone hammer.

[VP Baltar]

Two scum groups confirmed.

Mastin, who was your target last night and do you still really believe there are four killing factions?

[VP Baltar]

Actually, is there any way to view only one members posts in a topic?

At the bottom of the page there is a drop down tab where you can select a specific user to view in isloation. By default it is set to "all users". Just click on the down arrow and scroll to select a specific player.


re: Zazier's death--I am definitely intrigued to hear Mastin's reaction since he pretty much did nothing but agree with her all day and was harping on killing KK as well.

I think SC is right that we need to look at the people who agreed with her very readily, particularly those who may have later changed positions when it became unpopular to go after KK's lynch.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: It is also important to note that Zazie was pretty much indifferent to everything negative said about Mastin.

[VP Baltar]

I don't think Ckool is mafia with Zazie, she said he was town, but didn't seem too concerned about him getting lynched, perhaps wanting to make herself look good if he came up town? Also note it was her "gut" that told her ckool was town, this leaves loads of wiggle room to switch her opinions.

I disagree with this. Often times scum would say they have a "gut" town read on their partners because they can't really be called for defending them outright. I don't get the first part of what you are saying at all, why would she be pushing for his lynch if she said she had a town read on him?

Neighbors are indeed unconfirmed masons. I'm currently weighing out the pros and cons of Mufasa's neighbor claiming.

[VP Baltar]

reading ckool in iso is quite illuminating.

Vote ckool

A bit busy atm, but I will bring some major points later today hopefully.

Mastin still needs to do some 'splaining, however.

[VP Baltar]

I think it's pretty funny that Mastin is still trying to justify the Khan lynch after scum was shown to be driving it. Also how he says 'oh there was so much buddying yesterday, these people must be scum....except for me and Zazie, that doesn't count at all'.

[VP Baltar]

I've fallen a bit behind in this game. Skimmed what I missed so far, but I will give a proper response hopefully later today. Ckool still needs to die and has drifted into the background.

I'm unswayed by the rofl case at this point. He certainly doesn't get a free pass, but I think there are more important persons to deal with.

I'm half inclined to vote Mastin, but I haven't thought enough about if this is really a good idea at this point. Also, there is something that would just feel like a grudge vote about it.

Namtam--stop being lazy. your case sucked yesterday and it continues to. Also, who are your suspects now that we have another scum flip?

Wicked is apparently turning into Mastin redux.

In depth post later if my internet is working at home. If not

mod: May be V/LA this weekend

[VP Baltar]

rofl, at this point, do you feel ckool is scum or town?

[VP Baltar]

I would tend to agree with that theory, but is it worth risking a potential town PR this early in the game?

[VP Baltar]

yes. his continued insistence that he's blocked some fantasy fourth kill source both nights means that a) he's almost certainly not town and b) if he is town, he's only going to detrimentally lead us on wild goose chases

well, there is no rule that says just because he has a PR we have to listen to him. I have no intention of that really, as his theories about who is scum and why are very hare-brained (no offense).

I know I'm town, and I highly suspect that Khan is as well, so Mastin isn't exactly batting a thousand when it comes to his scum picks. I'd like to hear how much he think his Khan-Baltar-Lowell scum theory is true (plus other questions put to him).

[VP Baltar]

The point about the JK is a decent one...though I wouldn't have expected Mafia 91 to have three town cops either, but it did.

[VP Baltar]

Thought we only had 2. Vi and Zazie.

Empking was a cop as well...he just happened to be (rightly) vigged on N0.

See, what I find interesting is how many people are placing ckool on their hypo-scum lists and not voting him. He irked me when I first replaced into the game, but I let it go largely as noob behavior. It appears that Zazie's flip didn't do anything in his favor. I think a compromise for his lynch could be reached....The Ckool5000 Accord, if you will.

Xyl and Namtam, what are you opinions on ckool?

[VP Baltar]

Also, I'm really uncomfortable with Kise lurking his ass off in this game. Every game I have ever played with him in he has been quite verbose, but he hasn't said anything here since July 3. He also just signed up for another game.

My lynch list currently reads:

ckool
Mastin
Kise

[VP Baltar]

What do you mean by that CKD?

[VP Baltar]

haha, that makes a lot more sense now.

@CKD-yeah yeah I get your point. I should have remembered that. I'm not going to try and excuse it now.

[VP Baltar]

Glanced over this game of Mastin as scum.

What is interesting to note here is how much he buddies with his scum buddies and never really asks them any questions that would be construed as serious scum hunting. This is especially true of Acemarksman and Zazier.

Furthermore, his obsessive tunneling in that game (mostly on mykonian) is reminiscent of how he went after Khan and now myself.

I'll look over some of his town games for comparison tonight before I file these as Mastin scumtells.

[VP Baltar]

Reading ckool in iso, here are the main things I see as screaming scum:

But first of all, yay! A mafia doctor (or whatever it is) has been eliminated!

This irks me, especially since it was his first post in the game. Could be read as either noob town or noob scum.

He makes excuses for Mastin a lot early in the game. Mastin or ckool, have you guys played a game together before?

In this post he attacks Kise over saying "lol", which is pretty much a BS reason to attack a player. This is six pages into the game too. It seems like an RVS reason to be questioning someone over.

This post looks like playful banter and coaching from Zazier.

He plays the noob card quite a lot. Not necessarily a scum tell considering how badly Faraday claims his history is, but I still don't like it. I know I did it as noob scum at times to get a pass for my mistakes.

On the whole "piggy-backing my evidence" thing, I wasn't exactly trying to convince everyone that Kublai was scum, I was just saying "WTF?" to my computer repeatedly... Because Kublai had mixed up what I had said. If you find that and whatever else is in his post a scum-tell, then go right ahead and vote for him...

You know what? After looking at everything, I will too.

Vote: Kublai Khan

^^^This post is pretty much the extent of actual suspicions he mentions of KK before voting him. Meanwhile, Zazie had been trumpeting around about how scummy he was. Looks like sheeping with his senior scumpartner.

More playful banter with Zazie here

I'm going to fully post these next three posts because they are quite interesting juxtaposed:

FoS: ckool

In case I haven't done that already.

You FoS''ed than HoS''ed and now FoS''ed, so I''m pretty sure you have done it already >.<

Woopsie!

Kise, you're starting to seem pretty scummy to me.

Why did him FoSing you again make him seem suspicious to you?

You know what amazes me? ZazieR has been posting a majority of the posts on the last few pages, and she hasn't gotten a single fos or anything... Of course, there's not much about her posts that could really seem suspicious... For a second, I thought I was on a roll with my thought process, but I'm not even really sure what I'm saying now...

I'm starting to think less and less that Kublai is town. I still have my vote on him, but there's something that bothers me about it: Wouldn't a scum, if they were faking a miller, say that, yes, they were a death miller, if somebody asks? Of course, that may seem scummy in some people's eyes, so that would make them not really want to do that, but wouldn't it be in their best interest? So that way, nobody could be 100% sure if they were town or scum? Now look at Kublai. He doesn't really know, but thinks it's an ordinary miller role....

I'm starting to confuse myself. The point is, I'm starting to suspect Kublai a little lesser, but I still have my vote on him.

I'm going back and forth a little bit about this post. The first part about Zazie definitely seems weird and potentially scummy banter. The part about KK is where it gets sketchy. On the one hand he is backing off the lynch while Zazie is still pushing hard for it, but on the other hand it wasn't gaining any traction and he could have been eyeing a vote switch to the Johnny Rotten wagon which was going very strong at that point.

When I make my cases against MM and Mastin, ckool says this:

You had lots of good points, and now that I think of it, I'm not 100% sure why I'm still voting for Kublai...

and this

I'm seriously considering changing my vote to Mastin or MafiaMann (what's up with M's and S's arouind these forums?), but if you need anymore reasons to vote for Kublai, just look at Zaz's posts.

Clearly he has no clue why he actually wants to vote for KK, but he knows it sounds good!

He then votes Mastin and disappears for awhile. When Mastin claims roleblocker ckool unvotes him after many other players had begun to back off and he returns with this:

Hmmm... I'm not sure if I want to vote for Kublai, VP, or MafiaMann...

He said he didn't even really know why he was voting Kublai earlier, he never even mentioned any suspicions on me at this point, and his reasons for voting MM were all mine, none of his own. I know my alignment, KK is more than likely town, and we all know MM was town....so this definitely seems like lost scum searching for a wagon to join.

He gives his reasons for suspecting us later when questioned:

Kublai- For reasons already stated before, thank you.

VP- Something just doesn't seem right about his posts to Mastin, and it seems like he's purposefully leaving out important info... Like the one's that Mastin bolds and increases in size.

MM- Um... To be honest I don't know. For some reason there's a bandwagon... And it all sounded like he was scummy...

I didn't see hardly any clear reasons for him suspecting KK on this reread. He had pretty much been agreeing with me whole-heartedly on the Mastin wagon until the claim, so why wouldn't all this ingenuousness on my part have stuck out before? And well, he doesn't know why he is thinking about voting MM

Switches his vote to Mufasa because I, someone he was thinking about voting for, pointed out why he should.
Do you typically follow people you think are scummy in their suspicions ckool?

---------------------
Ok, that is pretty much the stuff that stood out on an iso read of him. Some definite connections between him and Zazier in there. I want to look at Kise in iso as well and see where his suspicions were at.

[VP Baltar]

I agree with KK.

ckool, I made a lengthy post regarding my reread of you and several other people have posted their suspicions of you as well. I suggest you find those posts and start addressing those points. You being busy isn't much of an excuse when you already said you were going to try and catch up.

[VP Baltar]

Dry your eyes and respond to these points first ckool.

If you don't understand something specific, then ask and I'll clarify.

we don't need to lynch you right now, just pressure you.

This is not being helpful. Also, has there been a case made this entire game that you haven't agreed with?

[VP Baltar]

i have actually never seen a more literal appeal to emotion

heh.


Hayker, what is your current read on Wicked? Scum or town?

[VP Baltar]

unvote

pending counterclaim.

ckool, can you link to the post where you said you were sure the vig took out the scum for my convenience.

Vigging N0 is a good idea in a large game, SC. Though I'd say it was kind of a jerk move to kill someone with zero games. Way to make a person feel welcome on the site. Of course, it hit scum...so I can't complain too much.

I want to reasses my options, but I think I would back an Achilles or Mastin lynch.

[VP Baltar]

Vote Mastin

I'm not sure if I agree with the kill this person or that person depending on the flip. My gut read on rofl and Kmd is that they are both town and I think there are better persons to eliminate *cough* Lowell *cough*.

Wicked, do you think Hayker is town or scum as of this moment?

[VP Baltar]

Any particular reason why you ask this question?

Nothing that is relevant at this moment.

Does anybody have any comments on my Empking vote? You have all ignored it.

Your vote is probably better served elsewhere. What are your feelings on the Mastin wagon? Why choose Empking over, say, Achilles, who has acted scummy and has repeatedly said he would catch up, but hasn't?

[VP Baltar]

How suspicious of Empking's Alt are you?

I've pretty much come to the point where I just ignore Emp until necessary/hope something happens to him before that point. I agree that he has acted scummy...but he doesn't act any different in any other game. It's the meta prison he's built for himself, and he has to live with it. I don't think he should ever make it to end game, but I think there are better ways to spend our day 2 lynch.

Don't forget that we will still get at least one more vig if ckool is telling the truth. I'm sure Emp would be on his short list for consideration.

[VP Baltar]

I move that we don't vote for Mastin any more until he comes in and speaks. His lurking is getting ridiculous at this point. Of course, it's also reminiscent of the scum meta he provided.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, he's been posting plenty since his last time here, so it is definitely intentional. We have plenty of time to deadline however, and I'm sure if he continues along this route he will have a massive prod coming his way.

[VP Baltar]

I'm think he's curious if you mean you got an innocent "read" from Kmd last night. Result implies something else I'm sure you can figure out.

[VP Baltar]

*iz ded*

[VP Baltar]

*iz ded*

[VP Baltar]

Mega props to KK. I'm seriously impressed that you and Zazie pulled that off. I too was fooled.

I'm sort of mad that I had to get axed so early and I probably played the cop wrong by going after Mastin so hard, but I just couldn't believe that anyone could act that scummy and not be lynched.

Overall I'd say at the time of my death my reads were pretty off, but I suppose that is pretty typical for me in large games.

I'm surprised Faraday got as far as he did. SC looked town to me, so I know to keep my eye on you in the future.

I'd definitely like to hear why kmd didn't claim. That seems silly and a bit of a distraction for the town.

Good job Vermillions.

[VP Baltar]

lol, if you saw how hard that :headdesk: was when I read what JR wrote. lord help me.