Open 122 - Near Vanilla (Game over)

[Kmd4390]

/confirm

Is voting the Mod allowed?

[Kmd4390]

Well, the mod does know who is part of the informed minority, so perhaps she's votable. There's only one way to find out

Informed majority?

[Kmd4390]

What are you talking about ?

I'd hope you mean informed

minority

.

[Kmd4390]

Have you actually read my post

I read it BEFORE you abused Mod powers and edited it. And you couldn't even ninja edit to avoid the edit tag.

Can I vote yet?

[Kmd4390]

I swear that said majority!

I demand a recount!

[Kmd4390]

The mod is too lazy to do so right now . But try again tomorrow and she might do it then.
Also, I'd like to point rule 23 as it's your word against mine, KMD .
Can you now keep quiet? It almost seems like I'm a player.

Ok, that combined with 22 saying you don't make mistakes explains it I guess.

And I'll shut up now. Sorry.

[Kmd4390]

Take The Game out of your sig.

[Kmd4390]

Oh and Happy Birthday.

[Kmd4390]

Vote ZazieR

Scum know who is scum.

Zazie knows who is scum.

Using the transitive propery (A=B, B=C, A=C), Zazie is scum.

[Kmd4390]

Hmmm lots of people I've played with before. This should be interesting.

No vote?

[Kmd4390]

Hmmm lots of people I've played with before. This should be interesting.

No vote?

Does it matter?

Just curious why.

Does it hurt to random vote?

[Kmd4390]

Course not, I just don't really care to.

Please explain why you feel it's necessary to completely skip a whole stage of the game. Random votes certainly help to spur conversation. Everyone does it, so not complying can certainly be construed as an anti-town thing to do.

Pack mentality in this game is a good thing. It's something that scum certainly lacks.

It bores me, I like it once we get into the real game and I actually have things that I can go off to scum hunt. And no not everyone does it I've come across multiple people who don't do the joke vote stage, of course their reasons are usually different than mean but I just find it boring.

Ok, do this instead then.

Post your scum meta. Which games have you been scum in. How well did you play in your own opinion? Describe your playstyle in those games.

I'll post mine first.

In Mini 628 I was bussed on Day 1. I didn't really get a chance to do much. I pushed on person kind of hard and tried to leave connections to a couple others, but overall LlamaFluff won the game for us, not me.

Futurama, Mini 695. I appeared protown. I went after easy targets. The town basically let me get away with that and never really thought to look my way.

Mayo. Open 99. I had the SK pegged on Day 1. Pushed him HARD. Also attempted a fake-hammer Gambit for "reactions". Hammer ended up counting though. (I had never unvoted, but the Mod didn't require unvotes.)

Offsite. Jedi vs. Sith- I was recruited on Day 2. Continued to push the same person I pegged Day 1. Not really a good representation of my scum play because I was already committed to Day 1 stances I had as town.

Offsite. Douglas Adams- Large game. I basically layed low. Ended up lynched basically by process of elimination.

Offsite. NFC Mafia. I was a Godfather to start. Later became adaptive SK. I bussed my 3 buddies with awesome precision. Nobody ever suspected me of being mafia. I came up with a great fakeclaim. I'd have won easy if there wasn't a bulletproof SK Cop (who I targeted for a kill).

Offsite. Faker Mafia. Day 1 we lurker lynched. After that, it was all downhill. I got pushed for a lynch. Tried to distance, but my scumbuddy who was lynched the next day did the same, and overdid it. Terrible game.

Your turn hewitt. Random voting helps start discussion. If you don't want to do that, this is the next best thing. I also encourage EVERYONE else to post their scum meta.

[Kmd4390]

Vote ZazieR

Scum know who is scum.

Zazie knows who is scum.

Using the transitive propery (A=B, B=C, A=C), Zazie is scum.

No, that's not the transitive property at all. Scum know who is scum and zazie knows who is scum are not something=something statements.
Math fail.

It's the same statement.

Unvote

anyway because it's not productive to vote the Mod.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Rin Twisted

Scum found.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Rin Twisted

Scum found.

WTH? how does Rin's post make her scum?

major fos:kmd

The whole point in asking for scum meta is similar to the point of the RVS. The idea with asking for scum meta is that scum are going to be uncomfortable with the idea while townies will be glad to share. Rin came out against it.

Do you believe otherwise? You FoS'd me. Do you think I am scum? Why am I not worthy of a vote?

[Kmd4390]

I'm not saying that everyone willing to post it is town.

I'm saying that those who are unwilling are more likely to be scum.

And there's no reason to be careful with a vote on a player who is at...L-6?

I wouldn't be shocked to see a Rin-ac scumteam.

[Kmd4390]

And there's no reason to be careful with a vote on a player who is at...L-6?

That's exactly what the people in one of my other games have telling me.
It's my vote, I can be as careful as I want with it.

What is the worst that can come from an early vote?

Hint: The answer isn't 5 more people quick vote before you have time to unvote.

[Kmd4390]

And there's no reason to be careful with a vote on a player who is at...L-6?

That's exactly what the people in one of my other games have telling me.
It's my vote, I can be as careful as I want with it.

What is the worst that can come from an early vote?

Hint: The answer isn't 5 more people quick vote before you have time to unvote.

I don't know, and I don't really care what you think about my play style. If there's something about voting cautiously that's anti-town, let me know, and I'll kindly adjust my playstyle accordingly. However, I've never seen voting cautiously hurt a town.

It fails the "if everybody did this, could we lynch scum?" test. It hurts if people go back and look at your votes to get a read on you. It doesn't apply enough pressure to who you think is suspicious. And there is nothing that shows a more firm stance than voting/unvoting.

Off the top of my head, that's about it.

[Kmd4390]

Dej, I'd have something to say to you if that game was completed. =/

ac,

If this ends up being an extremely active game where we all have too many posts to read through, votes are a good place to look for a read on a player. Especially in vote counts at the end of a day.

Also, FoS is much weaker than a vote.

And the FoS didn't "get" me to explain anything. Asking a question would have been enough.

On page 3, you don't have a guarantee on anything, but you can firmly believe something. You have that as soon as you make a serious, non-RVS vote. This is true because as long as the vote is there, everyone knows that that's where your suspicion lies until you unvote. Basically, a vote says much more than an FoS.

[Kmd4390]

Dej, I'd have something to say to you if that game was completed. =/

ac,

If this ends up being an extremely active game where we all have too many posts to read through, votes are a good place to look for a read on a player. Especially in vote counts at the end of a day.

Also, FoS is much weaker than a vote.

And the FoS didn't "get" me to explain anything. Asking a question would have been enough.

On page 3, you don't have a guarantee on anything, but you can firmly believe something. You have that as soon as you make a serious, non-RVS vote. This is true because as long as the vote is there, everyone knows that that's where your suspicion lies until you unvote. Basically, a vote says much more than an FoS.

I guess that's just where we disagree on the usage of a vote, then. I will use my vote when I fully believe somebody should be lynched for their actions. I will use an fos if someone's action's are suspicious. I do not currently fully believe you should be lynched, I only find you suspicious.

Fair enough. We'll agree to disagree on this.

So the rest of the original point:

The whole point in asking for scum meta is similar to the point of the RVS. The idea with asking for scum meta is that scum are going to be uncomfortable with the idea while townies will be glad to share. Rin came out against it.

Do you believe otherwise?

You said that anyone wanting meta should find it on their own. Why does it hurt to talk about how you play as scum?

[Kmd4390]

haha Hohum, Outside this forum I love to get power roles I just think the mods on this forum don't like me enough to give me a decent role

You didn't answer the question.

[Kmd4390]

ac, no, players shouldn't be "forced" to give their meta from games where they were scum, but they should have no problem talking about how they play as scum.

[Kmd4390]

Quite Honestly I am not the mafia nor have I been on this community

You realize that god can see you playing this game, right? If you're lying you best repent or roast deep in the depths of hell.

Haha "Don't bring Religion into these forum" You know where that is from Ho Hum ahhaha

Santa is watching too.

[Kmd4390]

ac, no, players shouldn't be "forced" to give their meta from games where they were scum, but they should have no problem talking about how they play as scum.

...Well, I guess it all goes back to jumping to conclusions in terms of Rin Twisted. Rin obviously doesn't feel that she should post her meta. If you want meta on her, go look it up yourself. You just shouldn't jump to conclusions like that. At least that's what I think.

Oh I'm not as worried about what she's hiding as I am about why she's hiding it.

[Kmd4390]

I would have to agree that it is a little silly to jump to conclusions so quickly but it does bother me a little she's not showing her past games. However, if that's consistent with her gameplay and that's how she always plays then I can understand that better.

Maybe it's because she just signed up a week ago. Unless it's an alt.

Then why not simply say, "I just signed up a week ago"?

[Kmd4390]

Well, all she said was "I really hope no one else does this." She never actually implied whether she could or couldn't, just that she didn't want anyone else to. I think you just took it as a "no" to your request.

Actually, she said:

You're kidding, right? I hope you're kidding. I really hope no one else does this.

[Kmd4390]

That doesn't make what I said any less true =/

You don't think she had anything against the idea of discussing scum meta? I find that hard to believe.

No, seriously, how does this matter? If I'm new to the game, you shouldn't cut me any slack for behavior you find scummy just because I'm new. If I'm not, you can't trust what I say about how I play as scum in other games.

And I can't trust any of you for that, either. Kmd, I don't have any interest in the information that you choose to feed me about games you've played in the past. If I wanted to meta, I'd do it myself with that little 'profile' button. I don't, though. I'll stick to what you do and say in this game.

Ok, but how does it hurt the town for you to just give us an idea how you play as scum?

I think by providing previous scum meta games can actually help scum by avoiding the tendencies they had in those previous games and they can say "Oh yeah well look at my previous games I was scum, I'm not playing that way am I? Nope, so I'm not scum".

If they did that, would you assume them town? I wouldn't. In fact, I'd probably be even more suspicious of them for trying to avoid their scum tendencies.

Rin Twisted, I am not so sure posting meta shouldn't matter. How is asking people to do that in order to provoke a reaction any different than say grilling someone over a random vote or failure to random vote? If it gets discussion going, it is good!

Kmd, do you REALLY think not wanting to post meta is a scum tell?

Yes I do. Read what you said to Rin. That is the purpose in asking for scum meta. The idea that scum won't want to do it.

[Kmd4390]

Random

Vote: AWA

for lurking so far and catching my attention for having an all caps name.

Pick one. Is it a random vote or a lurker vote? It can't be both.

[Kmd4390]

Do you think I would lie about how games went when any one person in this game could go look up any of those games?

[Kmd4390]

Sorry Kmd, I did not phrase that question properly. I was more interested in your thoughts on Rin's actual actions in this game, not really some philosophical position on if posting/not posting scum meta is particularly suspect behavior. The whole point is to get people to talk and evaluate them based on their actions. I was more interested in what you thought of her responses and people's reactions to them.

Phrasing it that way doesn't change anything. I think as town, she should be more than willing to discuss how she plays. As scum, she won't want to limit herself by giving away how she plays as scum and having to try and avoid that.

Do you think I would lie about how games went when any one person in this game could go look up any of those games?

Short answer: I expect you to be dishonest if you're scum in this game. It's not that simple, really, but that's true enough.

Actually, when I'm scum, I try to be honest about as much as possible. Sure, I try to look like town and I try to look like I'm scumhunting. Hell, if I claim it will be a fakeclaim. But I don't straight up lie when it can be proven. That's why I wouldn't even want to discuss my scum meta if I was scum. Because I'd have to either put it out there or lie about it. And a lie can easily be proven to be a lie.

Okay, here we go: in your world, not wanting to meta about past games is a scumtell, right? So in that case any given game of mafia should following a simple format: someone asks for scum meta, everyone but the scum posts it, you lynch those players, game over!

Unfortunately, that won't work in many games. Once people see it, they will start to go with it in a way that they look protown. Mafia is a game of evolution and adaption (among several other things). If someone has an idea and applies it, people learn from that. I saw this used offsite. It worked there. I'm trying it here. But after a few games, I can't use it anymore because people will know the purpose of it and post their meta anyway.

Since that isn't how mafia goes, there might be something wrong with your surefire strategy. How about this scenario then: someone asks for scum meta, and everyone complies. Including the scum. So what do you do with the wealth of 'information' to figure out who mafia is? Well, what information do you have, really- a series of one or two sentences about every game that every person has previously played. It's unlikely that the scum have handed you the keys to their own demise, of course, but they're also probably not going to flat out lie about how they played in case you do check up on it. So a more subtle kind of dishonesty is required.

Actually, in this scenario, I think the scum posted their truthful meta and will try to avoid playing the same way. Or maybe they just weren't as detailed as they could have been.

There's a far easier solution for scum to post meta about how they've been scum in other games. You post about the events in the game. That fills up words, and makes you seem honest.

That too. But you see, by saying what scum could do, you are showing how information can be gained this way. If you think scum will post about game events instead of playstyle, post your meta, wait for others to do the same, and jump on it when you see it. I mean, it's too late now, but that was what you could have done.

You use scum generalizations like 'in this game I laid low' and 'in this game I went after easy targets'. Most importantly, you also contradict yourself, so that with every game you say you stayed undercover there's another example of how you were aggressive. That way, people learn nothing from your scum meta and can't point to any given behavior as out of character.

Well, laying low and going after easy targets are scumtells I've commited before. People can look for that. And yes, I've used multiple playstyles as scum. That's valuable to know too. Because now you know that if I'm avoiding a specific scumtell, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm town. It basically says watch me closely because I'm good at looking protown as scum. But would scum want to share that kind of information? No. They'd hide it like you are. That is why I'm voting you.

The entire exercise is one of futility. You don't learn anything of value from scum meta. I don't like doing it. End of story for me.

From the meta itself, maybe you don't learn much. Like I've said already, the point is to see reactions to asking for scum meta. And yours is exactly what I was hoping to see from scum.

No, that's exactly what she said. What I said was I dont think she implied that she could and didn't want to. Meaning she didn't have the option, since she doesn't have a meta on this site. Even still, anyone can lie about their scum meta if you're not going to look it up yourself. Be honest, would you really make the effort to read entire games just to see how they played? Either way though, it doesn't make a difference to me if someone posts their meta.

If something seemed off, I'd look.

Most people seem to be missing the point. It's not the meta itself I'm concerned with. It's the willingness to post it and discuss it openly.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd do you go into every game asking for scum meta?

No. I saw it done offsite recently as a substitute for the RVS and it was surprisingly effective. I tried it once, but the game is ongoing. So this is the second time I've personally done it, and the third game I've been in where it's been done.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd do you go into every game asking for scum meta?

No. I saw it done offsite recently as a substitute for the RVS and it was surprisingly effective. I tried it once, but the game is ongoing. So this is the second time I've personally done it, and the third game I've been in where it's been done.

Okay because it would seem a little shady to me to come in and do it this game if you don't normally do it just because there's the possibility that you could've gone in this game planning on doing it and I don't see why you would have a gameplan ready before the game even starts.

TBH, I actually brought it here because you didn't random vote.

[Kmd4390]

I see. You're saying the fact that I won't discuss it at all is a tell. Right? Well, so be it. I don't want to contribute to it anymore. Instead of scumhunting, all we're doing is discussing game theory. I'd find it interesting in another setting, but here I find it distracting.

You think I'm just discussing theory with you? You don't think that my vote and questioning you is scumhunting?

[Kmd4390]

I don't think the discussion we're having about why whether me not posting it is scummy is talking game theory.

Well if it's not game theory, and my suspecting you and questioning you isn't scumhunting (Seriously, what?), then what is it? And what were you referring to as game theory?

Random

Vote: AWA

for lurking so far and catching my attention for having an all caps name.

Pick one. Is it a random vote or a lurker vote? It can't be both.

Well its now the latter.

Why did you feel the need to call it random?

I have an honest question for you. You're speaking about this with a lot of confidence. 'It is a scumtell'. 'Scum are more likely to not be willing to post their scum metas.' Are you speaking with any sort of experience behind you? Have you played any games where you did this and the people who didn't want to turned out to be scum?

You quoted Zwet, but I assume this was supposed to be directed at me.

I saw it work successfully once offsite. The game I personally tried it in is ongoing, so I can't say too much on that. That game should end before this one though, so when it does, I'll let you know what happened.

[Kmd4390]

I don't think the discussion we're having about why whether me not posting it is scummy is talking game theory.

I

do

think the discussion we're having about why whether me not posting it is scummy is talking game theory.

Um ok. So, again, ignoring the contradiction here. My thinking you are scum and questioning you is all theory, not scumhunting how exactly?

[Kmd4390]

I guess that works. Just I think calling it random lessens the idea of calling someone out.

[Kmd4390]

[quorw="Rin"]You don't need to ignore anything you see is a contradiction- just ask me about something if you want more clarification. I meant to write 'do'. I wrote 'don't' instead. Is this what you're referring to?[/quote]

Looks more like you changed your mind than a typo.

I've never played on this site and you'll have no way to check the veracity of what I have to say- why would you take my word for it?

And you couldn't just say that when I asked?

So, you don't have anything to back this up. Okay, then.

Maybe when the game end.

[Kmd4390]

Heh?? I did tell you that, in Post 101. You asked everybody to post a long meta post that I felt would cloud up the game. I asked if you were serious, because I didn't want everybody to do that. I didn't want to bring up past games at all, or have anybody do so. The argument blew up before I even logged in next. My very next post contains exactly that information

Not what I'm talking about. You said you hadn't played as scum on mafiascum. I asked why you couldn't have said that already and you gave what is quoted here. Instead, you are saying that posting the meta is useless. That is different from saying that your scum meta on MS doesn't exist.

Also, Hewitt, I fail to see how this is a difference in playstyle. I layed out a pretty specific startegy. Rin fell into what I was looking for from scum. I think she is scum. Pretty simple IMO.

[Kmd4390]

Ok. You're right (Rin/Dej). You did say that. But that wasn't directed at my question about scum meta. You (Rin) came right out against people posting scum meta. THAT was what caught my attention.

And it's not March 5 anymore, but I hadn't seen Zazie's post about making a post in honor of March 5.

So.

<3s to Rin. Although I think you are scum in this game, you seem to be a good player and a pretty cool person.

<3s to Zwet, hohum, Empking, dej, and hewitt who I've either played with before or am in other ongoing games with. Thanks for making those games fun.

<3s to ac, maad, Krer, Zt, AWA, and mufasa. I've never played games with you before, but I look forward to the rest of this one and any future games I see you in.

And last but not least,

<3s to Zazie. Not sure if you saw it in the original IMM thread, but I posted <3s for you. Thanks for the fun games in the past and more to come. And congrats on modding this one. You are doing a great job so far.

[Kmd4390]

My bad. AC should be listed with Zwet, hohum, Emp, dej, and Hewitt there. Forgot I was in 2 games with you. <3s.

[Kmd4390]

Yes, I think not trying to help the town to win is scummy.

You have not contributed anything at all to the town this game in any way, shape, or form. By your own logic you should vote for yourself because you're not helping either.

I masde a short case on Dej.

That's one point, not a case.

[Kmd4390]

ZT, Zwet's posting is like a cricket with restless leg syndrome.

[Kmd4390]

I'm in 13 games and Zazie was the only Mod to prod me. XD

Marathon Day has gotten all of my attention. I'll catch up this afternoon. Looks like this game was one of the most active I missed.

I also notice that Empking is at L-2. Guess I've got to see if there is a case on him or if it's just "Hey look Empking is anti-town like always. Let's lynch him."

I'll be caught up this afternoon.

[Kmd4390]

For obvious scummy behavior, including OMGUS voting, posting while trying to seem useful, and claiming to make cases that he obviously isn't. Whether his play is scummy by nature or not, we won't be getting anymore from him (and his behavior is just as much as a liability as it always is) and I'd rather have my vote on him until a more solid lead comes up.

Sounds like a policy vote. I don't like it.

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Omgus

While you are right that Dej's definition for OMGUS isn't the textbook definition, it doesn't lessen the point he is trying to make. He sees you going after him for going after you. Whether it's called OMGUS or not, you should still respond to his point.

now that the rin/kmd is more or less over

Why is it over?

IT'S NOT FREAKING DEFENSIVE! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS?

I may have to sig this eventually. Reminds me of a kid with tears pouring down their face screaming "I'M NOT CRYING" or someone screaming at the top of their lungs, "I'M NOT MAD!!!"

I am begining to see what many of you say about Empkings playstyle. The problem is, does this make him scum? (In game that is).

It's completely null. Doesn't make him scum, but doesn't give him a free pass either.

EXTRA: For all those who have some time tomorrow (tuesday), there'll be a marathon day here at MS. Perhaps I'll see some of you in one of those games

Maybe. Claiming scum is fun by the way.

There's a few people who have been earning scum points in my log book this game but not enough to justify a vote.

Elaborate please?

By pounding that OMGUS isn't omgus over and over again it seems that Empking is trying to distract the town from more useful, logical discussion.

Unvote; Vote: Empking

Is Empking more likely to do this as scum than as town?

I mentioned that once Rin (that Empking's psychotic posting doesn't necessarily make him scum). However, it might. And wouldn't it just be brilliant. Either way, it does not matter. Empking is not helping the town with his actions so maybe we can learn something by upping the ante a bit. I am not so much interested in what Empking has to say but what others have to say when I put another vote on him. (Should be number 4 by my count.)

Unvote - Vote: Empking

"I said Empking wasn't scum for his actions, but his wagon is gaining steam. I'll vote him now."

Unvote, Vote Kreriov

Question is, is Emp/zwet playstyle going to help us in the long run?

If both are town, does lynching them help?

It is literally impossible to tell if [Emp]'s actually town or scum since he acts scummy every single game.

I wouldn't say "impossible".

I don't know about that dejkha. My impression of Empking is

he wants to win.

Yeah, he might be pissed off at you or me or whomever but he wants to win. Claiming TRUTHFULLY is absolutely the very

best thing he could do for the

town

. Perhaps the only thing left he can do to help the town.

You think Empking wants to win and wants to help the town meaning he is town, and you are voting him? DIESCUMDIEDIEDIE

[Kmd4390]

[

While you are right that Dej's definition for OMGUS isn't the textbook definition, it doesn't lessen the point he is trying to make. He sees you going after him for going after you. Whether it's called OMGUS or not, you should still respond to his point.

I can't respond to him about the point until he can make up his mind whether he thinks its OMGUS or not.

Does it matter?

[Kmd4390]

Sounds like a policy vote. I don't like it.

Like I said before, he himself is a policy lynch. There's nothing good whatsoever to get out of having him in this game (and many others) and the best day to get rid of him is day one. I don't care if he's like this every game, there's no pros to have him alive in this game, except for keeping a townie alive, if he is one, which we can never tell for sure. And you know the only way scum would kill him is if they couldn't stand him so much that they'd lower their chance of winning. (Don't be surprised if they actually do do that now that I said it)

I wouldn't say "impossible".

I can hardly see how it's impossible to get a real read on him that isn't scummy. The only way would be if he started cooperating and opening his mind at least a little.

Empking knows what he is doing. Yes, it's frustrating that he uses the playstyle he does, but he is actually reading and looking for scum when he is town.

You can get a read on him if you look specifically at him knowing "this is Empking". He looks scummy, but not necessarily scum. Look for things that would actually benefit scum to be doing. I haven't seen him doing that yet.

[Kmd4390]

Interesting twisting of words without actually going back and reading whole conversations there Kmd.

Oh, I read it.

I vote for Empking with clear reasons. Trying to cast my vote as a bandwagon move is simply not true.

Not what I was looking at. You said Emp didn't look scummy before and just as other's jump on him, he's scummy now? Or not even that he's scummy, but he "might" be scum and isn't helpful. I don't like the reasons to vote or the timing of it.

again, it will not work. While I do think Empking is scum, as I have stated, it simply does not matter any more if I am wrong. He is not helping the town. If he claims, great. It means more debate and more information for the town. If he gets lynched and it turns out I was wrong and he really is town, well, no big loss and again, it gives us more info.

I have yet to see a good case on Empking. If he is town, what "info" exactly will you take from his flip. NOBODY ELSE ANSWER. I WANT KRERIOV'S ANSWER TO THIS.

[Kmd4390]

KMD: Yes, it does. If Dejkha refuses to use standard terms to mean the standard definition, I have no idea what he's saying.

It's pretty clear what he is saying even if the term is wrong.

[Kmd4390]

KMD: Yes, it does. If Dejkha refuses to use standard terms to mean the standard definition, I have no idea what he's saying.

It's pretty clear what he is saying even if the term is wrong.

Its clear what he means by OMGUS but what about "vote" or any other word he's used?

He says you are going after him for going after you. That's what the focus should be on. Not the terminology

[Kmd4390]

As for lynching emp, i mentioned if we couldn't find scum otherwise, lynching him would be a better choice. Why? Because he's gameplay is scummy (debatable), and its probably not going to change on the other days.

This could be said about anyone. What if I said, "Zt is scummy (debatable), and its probably not going to change"? Would that make you a good lynch?

Basically, I want reasons why Emp is playing in a way that would benefit him more as scum than town, and things he is doing that he would be more likely to as scum than town.

I'll just describe this point as being a useless

townie

.

How do you know he is town? And why wouldn't you prefer to lynch scum?

If emp was town, does lynching him help? Help is an extremely subjective word, but I would see two benefits. 1st, lynching a useless townie is much better off than lynching a townie that might help find scum.

What makes you think Emp can't find scum?

Assuming KMD and EMP were equally scummy, I would prefer to lynch EMP because I think kmd have the potential to contribute more later, while emp have potential to confuse more later. The 2nd benefit is that with a townie that has little to no voice and influence on the rest of the town, it would be easy for the mafias to take advantage off in the later days to make us do a bad lynch.

Considering certain players who refuse to listen to Emp, I can agree with this. He has little persuasive ability in this group. But people should form their own opinions anyway.

If we're going with

unconfident lynches

, we might as well lynch Emp, that's what I'm saying. Because there will be lesser damage compared to later days, and because I don't see any good discussions coming on that will help find even more scummy people.

Why do we have to lynch unconfidently?

I think the scum have a "get out of jail free" card when a player like Empking is in the game. All they have to do is play on the town's opinion of his playstyle and look like frustrated town. Therefore, I also have suspicions on dejkha.

Zwet, yes Zwet (Holy shit) makes a great point here.

Emp, in this game, if town, is what I like to call scumbait. Scum love scummy townies. They blow up what the player is doing because it's an easy lynch and even easier distraction. When called on voting them, they can say, "*shrug* He was scummy."

I rest my case.

I'm actually really seeing the Dej case.

Actually yeah, I'll take this lead over the questionable Emp one.

What lead?

Kreriov, I'll read your post after class.

[Kmd4390]

lol @ 10 minute class because Spring Break is next week.

This is a lie. I did NOT say Emp did not look scummy. I basically said his play is so chaotic and uninformative that it could be scummy or it could just be him being stupid.

Orly?

I would second AWA and say attacking Empking is a waste of our time.

I am begining to see what many of you say about Empkings playstyle. The problem is, does this make him scum? (In game that is).

I mentioned that once Rin (that Empking's psychotic posting doesn't necessarily make him scum)

. However, it might.

Is it a waste of time lynching players you think are scummy? If his playstyle isn't scummy, what about him is?

I basically said his play is so chaotic and uninformative that it could be scummy or it could just be him being stupid.

Which do you think is more likely? Why?

I made no real judgment one way or the other in the early posts to which I think you refer.

You specifically said it was a waste of time lynching him. You asked if his playstyle really makes him scum. Hell, you pointed out that you had previously said his playstyle doesn't make him scum IN THE POST WHERE YOU VOTED.

Again, DO NOT TRY TO TWIST MY WORDS!

Even as scum, I don't twist words. Look at all of my scum games and you won't find me doing it.

I can point out numerous 'scummy' actions by Empking. OMGUS voting is one. Almost no posting and definitely no posting of any substance. Have you looked at some of his posts? Is there even one with more than 2 sentences that are not quotes? Declarative statements with no reasoning or even context, i.e.

Not convincing me because I've played with Emp before and that is his town play. But at least you are bringing reasons now.

Well, I have already gotten quite a bit of info. For one, the fact that he has gone so long at L-2 is VERY interesting. If he were town, the mafia has had a very good opportunity to lynch with little or no risk or even put him at L-1 and hope a townie finishes him off. Also, look at the interaction between dej and zwet. zwet is looking a bit scummy there. Finally, YOUR actions in particular are very interesting Kmd. You continually try to twist my words. You come to Empkings defense instead of allowing him to speak for himself. I would say that putting my vote on Empking has already generated quite a bit of info.

Let's see if I follow you. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. You think:
-He is more likely scum because he has been at L-2 for a long time. This would mean his buddies are NOT on the wagon and decided NOT to bus him. That makes the following players more suspicious if Emp flips scum: Kmd4390 maadneet ac1983fan, Rin Twisted, hewitt, AWA, mufasa.
-Zwet is scummy for his discussion with Dej (how does Emp's flip affect this? Or does it at all?)
-I am scummy for defending Emp. (Does this change based on Emp's flip? If so, how?)

[Kmd4390]

Read it and also please let us all know why you are subtly trying to imply Ztife WANTS to lynch a townie over a scummie. I am getting tired of you putting words in peoples mouths. I refer to this part of your post.

I'll just describe this point as being a useless

townie

.

How do you know he is town? And why wouldn't you prefer to lynch scum?

It's a suspicion. Let him answer it himself.

In no way does Ztife say he wouldn't prefer to lynch scum.

He calls Emp a useless townie. He wants him lynched.

This is the same sort of thing you have been trying to do to me. I DO NOT KNOW if Empking is scum or town. I BELIEVE him to be scum but am willing to acknowledge that I may be wrong.

It looked like your vote was out of policy and your opinion completely changed as soon as others started to vote him. THAT is suspicious.

Is there a reason you keep defending Empking so vigorously?

I don't like the wagon on him. Either he is town and scum are attacking him, or his buddies are bussing. I think regardless of his flip, we will find scum on the wagon.

Is he incapable of speaking himself? THAT is the one thing almost everyone voting or who had a vote on Empking wants, him to actually speak and you keep interfering.

How am I interfering? If (that's a BIG if) someone actually brings a good case on him, I won't stop him from responding.

[Kmd4390]

The '

Vig Kmd

' votecount:

(Happy "Constant Vigilance" Day! My victim is shown in the vote count title )

Even the Mod is against me.

Guess I'm screwed.

[Kmd4390]

unvote vote: Empking

Wanna back this up?

Way to plagiarize my logic...

It's not plagiarizing unles he used your words exactly.

Not true.

[Kmd4390]

ac, don't be like empking with his OMGUS technicality crap please. You know what I mean.

Don't back down. You are right. It technically IS plagiarism.

[Kmd4390]

STOP! NO MORE OF THESE USELESS DIVERGENCeS.

I almost want to sig that just because it's you.

[Kmd4390]

The 'Zwets needs to back off from the mod's guy!!!' votecount:

In case somebody missed it. Kmd will be V/LA for a while.
Will prod maadneet and Rin Twisted

I'm actually gonna be around normal time today. Just found that out.

[Kmd4390]

unvote vote: Empking

Would anyone moan if I called this bandwagoning?

No.

Coming out of lurking for an unexplained L-2 vote. His last post, he unvoted his random vote.

[Kmd4390]

Hewitt. Ignore "uselessness" and vote for "scummy". If all 3 are town, we can't really afford the mislynches. It would put us in immediate LYLO.

[Kmd4390]

We can't lynch them because their not being scummy

You don't think Mufasa is scummy?

once you get near the end you need all the logical players you have.

Empking is pretty logical once you get fast his frustrating playstyle.

[Kmd4390]

See my sig.

I'll catch up next week.

[Kmd4390]

Reading, reading everyone. This week has been hectic to say the least. I'm on page 11 and hoping to knock out the remainder this evening or tomorrow morning.

Thoughts so far?

[Kmd4390]

1) a massive prod from our very kind mod

This will be done after I have finished some marathon games Everyone can expect a prod before I log off.

No need to prod me. You know I'm here.

[Kmd4390]

1) a massive prod from our very kind mod

This will be done after I have finished some marathon games Everyone can expect a prod before I log off.

No need to prod me. You know I'm here.

Yay! I know my scum meta is pro-town, Kmd, but I promise I'm town this game and I could sure use some help turning around that tragic day 1.

That's a relief. I've skimmed the game and am catching up for real now. From skimming, I've noticed that we share the same views on almost everything and that scares me a little because if you are scum, I don't want my subconscious telling me you are town if you aren't.

4.) KMD is p town although

he must hate me.

Why's that?

Thanks for the confirmed scum team.

Vote: dejkha

No prob.

Vote Dejkha

No. When I said "if you came to that conclusion and people agree", that "if" was toward both parts. So,

if

people agree.

So there is no reason to defend because people other than VP

might

think you are scum? Are you being serious?

Please remind me why you voted Empking.

I was convinced he was scum because he refused to claim.

Do you think claiming is a good idea for vanillas?

As for wanting Empking to claim, he should have. It is the pro-town thing to do in my opinion. Refusing to do so after repeated and reasonable requests to do so simply made the case in my book.

In particular I was afraid I was wrong and that he was the doc or jailkeeper.

Your posts don't reflect the bolded at all.

Why did Kmd focus on me when Ztife and Mufasa put highly suspicious votes on Empking?

You're right. There votes were suspicious too. You look scummier though IMO.

Why are we not questioning Ztife and Mufasa more closely about their votes?

Funny thing about the game of mafia. You have the power to question anyone you want. If you want to question them, do it.

I was going to megapost, but I just don't have the energy... yet.

I know the feeling. Try coming back from a week of no access and being in 13 games you have to catch up on.

If that wagon has no less than 2 scum on it I would be floored and saddened.

I agree.

As an aside: Remember not too long ago when I was talking about with the whiny slap-fights being counterproductive? See these two posts above? Thats almost a textbook example.

Yep. Definitely annoying to read..

I didn't particularly believe he was scum, but he was helping them, so I was satisfied with the lynch.

This is exactly the attitude I expect scum to have had regarding Emp. "Well, he's town, but a good lynch anyway."

No, I do not think the town should policy lynch Zwet. His posting style might be similar to Emps but he is not actively hindering the town, which, in my opinion, Empking was.

This is actually very interesting to me. Please explain the difference in detail.

[Kmd4390]

Someones trying to misrepresent position to make it seem like I said something that I didn't... hmmm.

Clarify what you said then.

Looks like someones ok with the idea of tunneling the same 2 people without looking elsewhere.

So because I'm suspicious of you and Krer, I'm tunneling on the two of you?

He was a good lynch <fact

Technically, opinion. Not fact. And I disagree. My win condition tells me that the scum need to die. Emp was town. Not a good lynch for me.

But your behavior is one I'd expect scum to have had regarding Emp. "Don't lynch him, he's logical!"

Translation: "Emp's like my fourth scum partner, so don't lynch him... please."

What? He flipped town. Emp does think logically in games. He isn't dumb. He just intentionally comes off as dumb for whatever reason. But he wasn't being scummy.

I'm thinking VP, Kmd and Mufasa right now. I wanna see how much I can gloat at the end of the game.

Can I gloat when you are dead wrong? And can you bring a case on one of your suspicions?

[Kmd4390]

It means what it says: "it doesn't matter what I think because if you came to that conclusion and people agree then my defense won't help." If people agree with his case, my defense won't help.

How is that different from my interpretation of your post?

So because I'm suspicious of you and Krer, I'm tunneling on the two of you?

When thats all you're doing without questioning the people Krev brought up with good reasons and apparently don't care why they did what they did.

I'll let them respond on their own. If I have a problem with their response, you'll know it.

Technically, opinion. Not fact. And I disagree. My win condition tells me that the scum need to die. Emp was town. Not a good lynch for me.

You got the wrong PM (or maybe you're just scum, that would explain it), because my win condition is when all threats to the town have been eliminated. Emp was a threat to the town and it's a fact that he was a good lynch.

"All threats to the town have been eliminated". For that to happen, "the scum need to die". Emp was NOT a threat to the town any more than the rest of us. Maybe he was right in his views, maybe not. Either way, nobody listened to him. That's what got him lynched. Not bad play. Not scummy play.

Can I gloat when you are dead wrong? And can you bring a case on one of your suspicions?

Sure, but only if I'm wrong about you. I can bring on one of my suspicions. I'm in the process.

Ok, I assume I have to wait until endgame to gloat though?

And I look forward to seeing your case.

[Kmd4390]

How is that different from my interpretation of your post?

You said I wont defend because theres a chance people will agree with him. I said if people do agree, I wont defend. Yours implies I plan on not defending on the chances they'll agree. I'm saying I wont defend because it wont work if people end up saying they agree.

Still not seeing the difference. You should defend either way (and you are, so that's a plus).

I'll let them respond on their own. If I have a problem with their response, you'll know it.

What do you think of their actions as it stands now?

Who, specifically?

[Kmd4390]

What I am I supposed to do, say ok Empking, claim if you are doc or jailkeeper only? First, you are taking this a bit out of context. That was a response to a question from VP about why I wanted Empking to claim. Second, that is WHY I was so frustrated that he didn't claim, it just made the lynch more nerve wracking to me. If he said he was vanilla I do not know what I would have done, but at the very least had he actually claimed I would have had second thoughts about lynching him. He was at L-1 and knew it. I was not the only one requesting him to claim. Claiming benefits the town for the simple fact it creates yet another point of discussion and yet HE FAILED TO DO SO. Instead he just kept up his inanity.

Ok, so he didn't claim at L-1 and that meant he was ok to lynch. That's fair. I personally didn't see him as scummy enough to get to that point, but I can follow that.

So me continually pointing out their suspicious votes and continued silence on the matter is ME not questioning them? Bullshit. I continue to not only sound the trumpet but place my money where my mouth is by placing my vote on Mufasa. What answer do I get? Oh, sorry I have really posted, I will get back to you in a bit. Even if you find my vote more suspicious, you ADMIT you find their votes suspicious as well and yet you do not back me up in trying to get information out of them.

They should answer your post. I agree.

As an aside: Remember not too long ago when I was talking about with the whiny slap-fights being counterproductive? See these two posts above? Thats almost a textbook example.

Yep. Definitely annoying to read..

Really, and yet you do nothing to take the discussion in any new direction even when it is pointed out you are not even attempting to run down your own stated suspicions.
[/quote]

My catch up post covered everything I felt I needed to cover.

Well, lets see. While he does get into childish fights, he is not nearly as dogged and determined to continue them. He does not continually post links to an OMAGUS definition. I do not think he deliberately tries to 'misunderstand' the spirit of OMAGUS and argue of the definition. (At first I thought Empking was deliberately doing so to be distracting and obstructionist. Given his revealed affiliation I now just think Empking is a twit.) He doesn't sit there posting 'Active Lurking' every time someone posts. He may or may not claim if we put more pressure on him, so that is a wash for now. He doesn't just post that X and Y are 'definitely scum' with no explanation and with no attempt to get into a discussion about it. He doesn't just post inanity when on the brink of being lynched, or at least we don't know that yet. He seems to actually be trying to understand what others are saying and meaning, even if he reacts childishly to some things.

A case on Empking?!? If he were still alive, I'd have liked to see him respond to this.

2 - Kmd and VP in particular and anyone else in general, speculate on these actions.

You mean Mufasa's Emp vote?

Right here:

unvote vote: Empking

Would anyone moan if I called this bandwagoning?

No.

Coming out of lurking for an unexplained L-2 vote. His last post, he unvoted his random vote.

He badwagoned out of nowhere after he'd been lurking like hell. I don't think he ever backed up his vote.

Also:

I've never been scum on any games on this community

Quite Honestly I am not the mafia nor have I been on this community

No idea why this needed to be repeated.

5 - Madneet - What was your motivation to post a spurious and unnecessary vote for Empking? At that point he was already lynched.

6 - Kmd and Vp in particular and anyone else in general, speculate on Madneets motivation.

Looks like he thought Emp needed to be lynched (I'm trying to figure out if he thought Emp was scum. Looks that way to me.) and posted a vote not knowing he had already been lynched.

Maad does need to post by the way.

7 - Zwet - What was your motivation for saying you would have hammered Empking when Day 2 started?

8 - Kmd and VP in particular and anyone else in general, speculate on Zwets motivation.

Just a statement. He had said the previous day that he was willing to hammer.

Who, specifically?

Mufasa and Zwet.

See above for both.

More specifically, I find Mufasa suspect and think he needs to post a lot more than he has been and explain his vote on Emp. I don't see Zwet as scummy, but I don't have any strong reasoning either way on him.

Kmd, I meant Zwet and Madneet. Sorry

Maad is a lurker and needs to post or be replaced.

I'm feeling that at least two of the scum were on the empking lynch, since scum would be stupid.

Really...

This implies that voting Emp was stupid and scum must have done it.

But..

You know what?

vote: Empking

I think you are the most anti-town player in the game, and your refusal to budge on anything makes it impossible for us to try and find actual scum; if you are scum, it's just a bonus.

You voted Emp. Not even for being scum. In fact, you said him being scum would be a bonus.

For anyone who may be confused on my reads, my scumlist, in order, would be Dej, Mufasa, ac.

[Kmd4390]

Thanks for the confirmed scum team.

Vote: dejkha

No prob.

Vote Dejkha

Also, this isn't getting enough attention.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote; Vote: Mufasa

It's fascinating that Kreriov is blatantly buddying up to Mufasa.

So you're voting for mufasa because kreriov is buddying up with him? With that reasoning I would've thought vice versa...

I agree with hewitt. Being buddied up to is NOT a scumtell. Buddying up, however, IS a scumtell. Also, examples of this to back up your statement would be nice.

Okay just to let everyone know since it seems the majority is online and posting when I come back from t'ai chi at 6 I full-heartedly plan on hammering mufasa. I believe he's scum for the reasons I stated in my after-lynch post but I will not hammer until after 6. I believe this gives enough people time to question mufasa as they will or remove their vote as they will. It also gives mufasa a little bit more time to explain and just for the record I dislike that little appeal to emotion mufasa.

Would you have hammered if he hadn't claimed by then?

That looked like a hammer...

Unvote

Wasn't bolded properly.

it would have been if he could type in his coding correctly. whew

What makes you think he did it wrong unintentionally?

Notice how he typed it out instead of clicking the bold button on the editing tool.

I always type it out and wouldn't be surprised at all if I'm not alone in that.

WHY is it so important to you to keep a useless newb around for another day so we can have this exact same argument tomorrow?

Do (or did) you think he is scum, or is this Empking all over again?

unvote

Well, that's certainly an interesting twist....

Got anything else to say?

Same here, but if that's the case: Real Doc, do not claim.

If mufasa is scum claiming doc, no counter claim leaves him alive as scum and makes a later doc claim more suspicious considering a real doc knows Mufasa to be scum right now. A counter claim lynches us scum for sure (and if Mufasa flips doc, we have scum tomorrow). I think if Mufasa isn't doc, the real doc SHOULD claim. Yes, I realize that if Mufasa is scum, the doc claim was a good move to out the real doc, but after his claim, why would a real doc NOT claim?

Basically, Mufasa is doc unless I see a counterclaim.

[Kmd4390]

unvote

Well, that's certainly an interesting twist....

Got anything else to say?

I believe Mufasa's claim. It makes sense that the mafia would try to kill you, arguably the most pro-town player in this game.

What about your suspicions right now?

[Kmd4390]

Dej, if you are the doc, you should claim now. Then we can lynch mufasa. And if he is the doc, you die tomorrow.

[Kmd4390]

Although its swinging back the other way with this "I have secret information" business. KMD KNOWS how much I love that.

Yeah, and I completely agree. I DID learn something from that game (For everyone else, Spy forced a double cop claim which obviously led to lynching scum). Softclaiming is scummy and if Dej is going to claim doc, he needs to just do it. And in his next post. If not, he needs to specifically say that he isn't in his next post.

So basically, Dej, are you the doc or not?

[Kmd4390]

Too bad -

I am the Doctor

.

Unvote, Vote Maad

One of the two is scum.

I'm gonna believe Maad. Scum counter claiming today wouldn't make sense. It would make more sense for them to leave Mufasa alive overnight and make Maad counter claim tomorrow.

The wagon shifted immediately to Maad after Mufasa's claim. It would be the right time to make a desperate move. And protecting AC makes no sense.

[Kmd4390]

Also Happy B-day to Kmd

Thanks.

-------------------------------------------------------

I keep going back and forth on Mufasa vs Maad. I was thinking about the game last night and thought Mufasa was probably scum (I considered getting out of bed to change my vote) because of his bad vote on Emp where he came out of lurking to make an unreasoned vote. Maad looked a little better as far as that. And I'm trying to decide if Maad would have countered as scum.

Unvote, Vote Mufasa

That's a hammer. Let's see if we picked right.

[Kmd4390]

I forgot to include it in my post: Happy Birthday, Kmd! You're awesome and have made my short time here on MS very enjoyable. Have a great day!

Thanks. Always nice to play a game with you.

[Kmd4390]

I agree with VP. There is no reason to discuss Jailkeeper right now.

Thanks Zt.

[Kmd4390]

I see that I'm allowed a bah post. No information though. So I won't give any. I'm just posting to say that I'm dead and allowed to post. That's it. Content-free. So nobody from any alignment can possibly take anything from this post that will help them or anyone else in this game. That's why it's a bah post with no information. I guess that's the whole purpose. To say that you are dead and to wish your team luck. And I was town in this game, so I am going to wish the town luck. I support the town. That being said, GO TOWN! May all town-aligned players serve their purpose and win this game. Good luck without me. Make the dead me proud. And once again, GO TOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I'll die now. No more posting from me after this. I'll be in the ground just rotting and being eaten by animals. That's my body at least. Spiritually, I will always be with you. Well, those of you who are aligned with the town. Not the scum. They can die. I hope.

Ok, seriously, I'm done.

Go town.

[Kmd4390]

I love grudge-kills more than I love winning.

That you do.

Anyway. Awesome flavor in this game. That was fun to read.

Camn, you get MVP.

Amazing comeback by the town.

Camn/Spy, did this remind you of Mini 672 at all? The division of the town, the counter claims, the scum being the lurkers watching the town tear itself apart... The only difference is that the town came back to win.

[Kmd4390]

Camn is undoubtedly MVP this one.

QFT

Good thing we didn't have masons this time.

"OMG THEY CLAIMED MASON!!!

VOTE!!!!!!!!!!

i protest this. i don't really think i could be described as a lurker much this game. i voiced my opinion pretty much all the time.

True. I'd compare you more to Stef in the other game. Stef was pretty active, but also under the radar. You played well.

I think the next marathon day we should have Drunk Mafia where every time you vote or get voted you have take a drink. would probably get pretty interesting by the third lynch or so.

Meh. You'd have to play multiple games.

/in

------------------------------------

Camn, forgot to ask. What the hell is that confirmation Gambit thing you did and why was it accurate?