Open 111- Immunity Mafia: Mod abandon

[Kmd4390]

I guess I'm playing this game...? Didn't exaclty /in, but that's ok.

/confirm

[Kmd4390]

Sorry about everyone that apparently didn't sign up for this game. Farside had all of you listed as playing, so I sent you the PM.

No problem. I understand the confusion. I was going to join to speed up the queue until I saw the number of players shortened.

And I don't mind playing. I need more games.

[Kmd4390]

Why are people voting? Has the game even started?

Oh well.

Vote Zorblag

[Kmd4390]

Be careful with your votes. They have weight, and tossing them around thoughtlessly will only hurt our scum-hunt.

Later in the game, I agree. But it's the RVS. That's kind of what we do. I'll show you:

Unvote, Vote Jahudo

Now you try.

[Kmd4390]

I really don't see how overreaction can be a scumtell, but to me, he's either jester or scum, considering now he said the same thing, twice is a row, is strage...

He's not a jester. It's an Open Game.

Roles are normally posted in the beginning of Open Games, but they aren't there in this one...

The setup is in the Queue though and there are no jesters.

[Kmd4390]

What is TPAM?

"Try Punching A Mod"

[Kmd4390]

I was close.

[Kmd4390]

Mod, why is the sky gray?

It's not blue in upstate New York

[Kmd4390]

Any comments on any players you do or don't find scummy, Brock?

None that im willing to point out so early in the game.

Why?

[Kmd4390]

Unvote: Empking

I'm not sure of the vote count right now, so I'll stick with

FOS: Zwet

just to be safe.

This bothers me. You bring forward a serious case. No, not a strong case, but it's early. And what do you do with it? Take off your joke vote which was randomly placed and FoS your serious suspicion to be safe.

Unvote, Vote dejkha

[Kmd4390]

He is at L-7. Are you ok with putting him at L-6?

[Kmd4390]

Well, I didn't know he was at L-7. I didn't think he'd be at L-2 or something, but I figured I'd be cautious anyway. Actually voting right now won't accomplish much if it puts him at L-6. Even a vote to put pressure on him probably wouldn't work until he was at L-4 or so. So, I'm not voting right now. We needed to strike up a discussion and that's what I was going for (looks like it worked). Voting isn't necessary right now IMO.

Interesting. You didn't think he was quite L-2, but wanted to be cautious. L-4 would be ok for pressure though? So you thought he was around L-3 and didn't vote? Are you worried about 3 quick votes after yours?

And you are still reluctant to vote him because it "won't accomplish much". And we say we need to "strike up a discussion". How do we do this if we are scared to vote at L-4 (which no one is anywhere near yet) and we don't think L-6 even does anything.

If you want to bring a case, back it up. Sure, it's still weak, but it beats not doing anything at all. I mean, why mention your suspicions and then not do anything about it?

[Kmd4390]

I didn't say or imply I thought he was at L-3. I said a pressure vote would may start to work at L-4, but nowhere did I say that was my reason for voting.

You haven't voted, so of course it isn't your reason for voting. I'm asking you your reason for

NOT VOTING.

It seemed to be the biggest lead ANYONE had at the time. He was nowhere near a lynch (L-7). And we needed a start into the game. Why was your joke vote any better than your first serious vote would be? Because a joke vote can be explained as, "Hey, it was random"? I see no danger in voting for your top suspect if you are town.

Take a look. We did start a discussion simply by me saying a post made me suspicious. Whether or not I vote has nothing to do with it. Quite frankly, it seems as though you're pressuring me to vote even though I don't want or need to and it's not really making you look good.

"My being scummy started the game, so I must be town, right? Let me throw some OMGUS your way."

Try again.

[Kmd4390]

dejkha (93): It's true that you don't need to vote yet but down the road how people have voted with be information we have to work with. I don't know if Kmd4390 is pressuring you to vote or not but I do know that I'd like to see everyone who doesn't have a current vote place it somewhere.

I'm not pressuring him to vote. I'm just wondering why he brought up suspicions and didn't vote.

I dont like showing my hand early in the game

Why?

[Kmd4390]

A FoS shows who I suspect just as much as a vote this early in the game. It would also be just as helpful later on when you look back to see who did what. Either way, it's obvious I suspect Zwet. If it's really a big deal to everyone that I vote, then I will, but I see no reason to otherwise and constant questioning of why I didn't won't help (I mean Kmd, not you Zor)

You aren't getting it. What reason is there to NOT vote who you are suspicious of?

How many times do I need to say why I didn't vote for him? I've said it multiple times already, so go look back for an answer. A joke vote is just that: a joke vote. If things get serious, I remove the joke vote and get serious. I don't instantly vote for someone because I suspect them, I don't care how early it is. So do you want try looking for another point or are you gonna ask me the same question over and over again?

Wait, a joke vote? The FoS and asking the Mod for a vote count to see if it was safe was a joke now? Really? I still don't see why you'd be scared to vote.

Again, you put words into my mouth. I never said or implied that. You better up your reading comprehension. FoS: Kmd assuming his reading comprehension isn't as bad as he's making it look.

You didn't? Let's break it down:

Take a look.

We did start a discussion simply by me saying a post made me suspicious

. Whether or not I vote has nothing to do with it. Quite frankly, it seems as though you're pressuring me to vote even though I don't want or need to and

it's not really making you look good.

First bolding. I said that you were saying "My being scummy started the game". Looks that way to me.

Second bolding. OMGUS. I pressure you, you call me scummy for it. If that's not OMGUS, what is?

So no, you didn't say that it makes you town. But the rest is there. Ironic what part of that wasn't actually there.

[Kmd4390]

So it's ok to jokevote, but it's not ok to place a serious vote early in the game? Why?

I'm not "insisting" that not voting is scummy. I'm saying it's scummy that you called out Zwet, asked how many votes he had, FoS'd, and didn't vote.

How is "not looking good" different from "scummy" in your opinion?

And again, I'm not pressuring you to vote. I'm saying that it seems off that you went through all the trouble you did just to say that you aren't going to vote.

[Kmd4390]

I only make a serious vote when I feel it's necessary. I'm not gonna vote for someone with the little information I had on Zwet.

We needed to start a discussion so I choose to respond to that post since it bothered me and just to be clear, I never ask how many votes he had. I only said that I didn't know.

With details, what is wrong with voting on little information. I want to see how you are thinking here.

This was your post:

Even though this may not be a big deal to other people,

this post gets me suspicious of Zwet.

Voting for someone because of something that mostly only comes down to opinion? Seems more like an OMGUS vote, like Wall-E said. Wall-E made a serious vote against you because he felt you overreacted about the RVS, so you vote for him because you think he was overreacting to your overreaction?

That hardly seems like a reasonable... reason, to vote for him. Since that was your response to a serious vote, I doubt it was a random vote on your part, so if you say it was, I'm not buying it.

Unvote: Empking

I'm not sure of the vote count right now,

so

I'll stick with

FOS: Zwet

just to be safe.

A couple of things going on here:
1)You ARE suspicious of Zwet. (bolded)
2)Weak or not, you present some points. More than anyone else had done at that time. (underlined)
3)You take off your jokevote. Your jokevote was placed safely for no reason. How does it become more dangerous to vote when you actually have points against a person?
4)Yes, you said you are not sure of the vote count, not that you didn't know how many votes he had.(italicized) What's the difference?
5)I bolded the word "so". The word "so" implies that it was reasoning for your FoS instead of a vote. If you knew the vote count, this implies you may have voted. What specific number of votes would have been ok for you to vote? Also, I provided you with a vote count and you didn't back up your statements at all.
6)You FoS Zwet. You have no vote out, and the FoS implies serious suspicions. The only reason I can see for an FoS is if you have more serious suspicions or he is at L-1 and you want a claim or response before the hammer. He was at L-7 and you had no vote out. Why FoS?

the between "not looking good" and "scummy" is the same as not looking pro-town and looking scummy. One doesn't mean the other.

Fair enough. Maybe you're not pressuring me to vote, but I didn't go through to much to get an unnerving feeling about Zwet. A two sentence post bothered me so I reacted to it. It's not like I'm going through the trouble you are only to not vote.

Do you think I am anti-town for questioning you when something caught my attention?

Ok, so what are your current thoughts on Zwet? Still suspicious? Are you waiting for him to respond? Do you have other suspicions?

(Noting that I haven't read past this post yet.)

[Kmd4390]

So, in summary:

Zorblag: Town, for taking a logical standpoint and making reasonable questions about me and other players.
Empking's Alt: Unknown
Brocktree: I don't see how a trap set in an open game would be very effective, assuming that the Mafia have some intelligence. Minor suspicion.
don_johnson: Unknown
Wall-E: Minor suspicion for taking a post I intended to be a joke and trying to make it look scummy.
White Castle: Unknown
Light-Kun: Minor scumminess for voting dejkha even though you admitted that the case you presented at the early part of your post was not that good.
Dejkha: Slight Town, but could go both ways, as although he initially looked scummy he responded quite well to questions.
KMD: Slight Town, but could go both ways, as he did actively pressure Dejkha, but a little bit too much, in my opinion.

More later, but for now:

Unvote; Vote Light-Kun

Just curious, why did you post "unknown" on some players, but not include all players?

Ah, but have i outlined the trap works? No. Nor shall I, because should i want to use it, and i tell you, youll know its a trap.

My logic is sensible, agreed?

If you are really using traps, you've already said too much. The scum will be watching for traps from you and now you can explain anything people find scummy about you as "all part of the trap".

Only scum need to be cautious? You think that's true because they don't need to worry about scum hunting? A townie keeping himself alive is just as important as scum hunting. A cautious townie is better then a careless one.

Actually, I'd be more than happy to die for purposes of catching scum. I will say exactly what is on my mind in a game. If I'm seen as suspicious because of my opinions, fine. At least people know my stance and can use it when I die. Sitting around being cautious isn't helpful. (Theory disagreement, not reasoning to back my case.)

You all seem to be voting for me because of the reasons Kmd brought up, so you should be more careful and get more evidence before trying to get someone lynched (no matter who you're voting for). So, some people that are voting for me now should best retract there vote if I get to L-2 or L-1 and no other evidence is brought forward. And if I am scum, it gives me more time to slip up, so you shouldn't have a problem of that.

Is it anti-town to agree with someone's points?

And yes, it is a god damn poker game. Let me explain:

We have no idea who is scum, but the scum know who we are, right? Voicing every little thought is downright stupid, because then the scum, provided they are observant enough, will use what you shouldnt be saying outright against us. In essence, yes, this is almost exactly the same as a poker game, because if everyone knows what your thinking, this will include scum, am i right? And if they know what the hell your doing, then your screwed.

Not true. Town knowing what you are thinking at the price of scum knowing is better than nobody having any clue what you are thinking.

Look at it this way. If everybody just decided not to give their thoughts, what would happen to the game? We'd all have no read on anyone and our lynches would become random. The scum are already informed of everyone's alignments (barring multiple scum groups and 3rd party). If we all followed your line of thinking, it would turn into power roles vs. scum instead of town thinking/discussion with the help of power roles vs. scum.

YES! Hit the nail straight on that head. If you think townies shouldnt give a damn if their lynched, then vote for yourself. Yea, thats what i thought.

No. No. No. No. No. And No.

Voting yourself is the same as pushing your own lynch. If you know yourself to be town, then you are pushing the lynch of a know townie. Even if you are scum and you vote yourself, you aren't playing to win.

Play to win, not just to survive. If you have something to say that will greatly help the town but may lead to your own death, go right ahead and say it. For example, say someone claims doc in an open game that lists 1 doc. You are the real doc. If you counter claim, you are dead that night. You still counter claim and accept your death.

Note= I've read up to LK's post which is the last post assuming no one has posted in the last couple of minutes.

[Kmd4390]

So right now I'm seeing a big connection between Dej and Zwet based on the actions of both players. Dej voiced suspicion after a wagon started, FoS'd, and never voted. Zwet is defending Dej now.

I don't think Brock is scum. Just sees the game differently than the rest of us. Brock, have you played games on other sites?

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I assumed you played on another site based on your playstyle. And yes, I've played with Kuribo. Palleon, I've never heard of.

[Kmd4390]

Right now, vote however you want, but if I get lynched for this alone, it'll be a huge mistake for town, because that'll show how little people care about investigating.

And if you were to flip scum, it would show that it's not a "huge mistake".

1) Yep
2) Yep
3) I didn't say it was dangerous.

If people started voting for Empking after my joke vote, I would've unvoted because it would've been to early.

When I get suspicious, I don't vote until I feel I need to.
4) Before you said that I "asked how many votes he had", not that I "didn't know". I corrected you and said I never asked, but that I wasn't sure.
5)I'm not voting on him for the little evidence I had. Plain and simple.

1-2) So you acknowledge that you do have suspicion on Zwet that

does

have some points to back it. Ok.
3) Wait, so you would be afraid of being too close to a lynch? A vote doesn't always mean "LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH". It can just as easily mean, "Here is my current suspicion." There's no harm in putting someone at L-7 if they are your top suspect.
4)Ok, but it still shows the same point. Your no vote seemed to be soley based on not knowing the vote count. Now you have been saying that isn't the case.
5)Ok.
6)No respone?

As for Zwet, he hasn't given me much else to go by, but I still don't buy that his vote on Wall=E was a joke. His thoughts on most players I agree with

If you don't buy that it wasn't a joke, why aren't you pressuring him at all?

And which of his stances do you agree with? And why?

Not necessarily, but it can be. Repeating what others are saying and not including any original input is scummy IMO.

Hypothetical situation. You are town-aligned. A player makes a case that you feel is very strong. You think that the player who the case is against is scum. You have nothing original to add. What do you do?

[Kmd4390]

Like I said, I dont think pressure votes would work at L-7 and he hasn't said much else after I posted my response to his initial suspicious post.

Would the only point in voting him be to add pressure? How do you expect late votes to happen without early votes?

What I just said was I don't think a pressure vote would do much at L-7. A pressure vote is specifically for putting pressure on a suspect. If I voted for Zwet

without specifically thinking he was scum

, it would be a pressure vote.

Why'd you bring points against him in the first place?

I wanted to be "safe" because I didn't know what the vote count on him was. I don't want to place a serious vote on someone so early, especially if he's already close to being lynched.

We've already discussed that he wasn't anywhere near a lynch.

Let's put it this way. If he didn't have any votes against him, and I knew that, I might've voted for him. I say "might've" because one vote of 11 would just be a "because I can" vote since it would have almost no effect.

So placing the first vote is ok, but L-7 isn't? Interesting...

Still seeing the dej-zwet connection.

[Kmd4390]

Empking, I'm pretty sure his point is that you haven't added anything, not that you are using other people's input.

[Kmd4390]

Easy, gathering evidence and then voting when you think there's enough

Why haven't you done this with Zwet? Has he done something to make you think he is town?

To get a reaction and start a discussion.

But you acknowledged that you both found him scummy and had something to back it up. You seem to have basically abandoned your case now.

Sorry, I guess I forgot to tell everyone I didn't know how many votes were on him.

You did after I told you.

[Kmd4390]

No, but he hasn't done anything to make me think he's scum. He only did something I thought was suspicious.

And suspicious=you think they are scum. If you disagree with this, you have to explain.

Can anyone else tell me how they feel toward what Emp is saying? I wanna make sure I'm not going insane.

You actually have a point about Emp.

(Note that this game has multiple scum groups so Dej may actually be scum who is right about scum in the other group. Not saying Dej is autoscum, but that my agreeing with him doesn't lessen my suspicions.)

[Kmd4390]

What point?

The fact that you are doing nothing protown at all.

For non-Dej people: Telling the scum your reads on people (save when you replace in) is anti-town.

Giving reads is NOT anti-town.

Emp, let me tell you a game I was reading over a while ago.

There was a guy who hinted to everyone he was pro-town by saying "it would be really bad for the town to lynch me". With a statement like that, it was obvious to scum that he's either a cop or doc. The problem is, the supposed cop/doc didn't claim because he thought it would mean certain death.

He survived the first night and continued not to claim because he thought not claiming saved his life. Everyone in the game begged him to, but he wouldn't. Because he wouldn't, they lynched him because they thought it was obvious he was scum (possibly trying to lure out the real cop/doc, but that's irrelevant)

It turned out, he really was the doc and the scum let him live because he was the prime suspect. If I remember correctly, town lost the game. Don't make the same mistake by withholding your thoughts, when you already have votes on you.

Please tell me you aren't saying anyone should be claiming right now.

Please, Caboose I expect better from you. Events and People are very different.

It isn't nitpicking at all.

Yes it is.

Ad hom doesn't help the town.

Have you played with Wall-E before? We'll be seeing it all game.

I don't think there is any such thing as being too literal. In my opinion, as someone with asperger's, people who play this game are never literal enough.

Sorry for the off topicness here, but I've known people with aspberger's.

[Kmd4390]

Haven't read up yet, but I see Emp's last post and am not sure where he is getting that.

I have class in 20 minutes and I believe I have about 2 pages to read here, so I'll get to that some time after class.

[Kmd4390]

Emp, I still don't see where I said there is no difference between events and people.

I still think Dej is the most likely scum here with Zwet as a likely partner.

I think scum (not aligned with Dej) jumped on the wagon. Caboose seems the most likely. (Yes that's vague, but it's not a very strong opinion right now.)

[Kmd4390]

Please, Caboose I expect better from you. Events and People are very different.

It isn't nitpicking at all.

Yes it is.

It's two different things. I agree. At the same time, you are nitpicking. It's not an important detail in context.

[Kmd4390]

If I can not vote against mafia I will vote in a manner that is pro-town, which for me is voting against someone who is egotisically pedantic, and refusing to answer questions. He has in my eyes also been scummy (not massively so), but this vote stays on him why he maintains his anti town stance. I see nothing scummy in what I have written. If you disagree with my logic vote for someone else.

There are 4 scum. You vote whoever you think they are.

[Kmd4390]

My point is don't vote against me cos you disagree with my vote, vote cos you think Im scum.

I agree.

Also, don't vote someone because they are unhelpful, vote them because you think they are scum.

Same logic.

[Kmd4390]

Dej, Empking is at L-7, and the case on him isn't strong enough for a lynch.

Are you ok with your vote? If so, what is the difference between your current vote on Emp and your earlier non-vote on Zwet?

The only difference is that you were the first vote here, where you would have been 4th on Zwet. I don't think that being 4th on a wagon is a scumtell, but I'm curious what the difference is here.

[Kmd4390]

The difference, to me, is that while at first I tried to start a discussion with Zwet with something minor, Emp continually refused to add a useful post and was arguing with me about the number of posts I said he made, which is ridiculous on its own, and eventually voted for me because of it.

So it's the strength of the case on Emp compared to the weak case on Zwet?

[Kmd4390]

Dej, Emp, you are both stretching severely. Emp asked for quotes to prove a point because he says there aren't any. If you (Dej) don't find any, it should show that your point was false. If you find some, you have a point. Emp, the fake quote was obviously a mistake in tags.

Quote examples of nit-picking.

This one is easy:

Whose input have I included?

You were clearly being accused of not adding any original input. You use semantics to make it look like you are being accused of using someone else's input.

I've given input, if it isn't my own input then it must be somebody else's. Whose input is it?

And you follow it up with basically the same thing.

Now Dej: Whose input was it?

And again.

So how about you stop avoiding what I asked of you and tell me.
His lie about my number of posts was a secondary factor.

Don: Letting scum get away with making unbacked claims is BAD.

He wasn't avoiding your question if I remember correctly. He was clarifying unnecessarily because of your nitpicking. Also, "his lie" about your number of posts was because he said you had about 4 posts and you actually had 8. If that isn't nitpicking, what is?

Not your own.

Doesn't imply that I'm using someone elses.

EBWOP: I meant "You've posted about 4 posts".

You've posted

about

4 posts

Is present tense. Check when he wrote this I had posted eight posts.

Still nitpicking on the same 2 points. Also bolding the word "about" because I think it proves a point.

There are more after this, but they are mostly the same thing. So I'd say you are nitpicking.

unvote;

Vote: Empking's Alt

<snip>
To me this reads like you don't have this game straight with any others you may be playing. Compounded with the fact that you keep asking for quotes from people in a game you should be reading, it sounds to me like you aren't reading and I don't think town would make accusations if they aren't reading.

He's asking for quotes of himself. Yes, he is nitpicky and annoying, but I don't think he is scum. I think he is trying to prove a point that the case on him is weak. Whether he thinks so or not though, he is definitely nitpicking.

Jahudo: When did I ask for a quote and got an acceptable quote?

Post 367

[Kmd4390]

Post 367 is after when I asked that question. Try again. (Unless that was a joke.)

Semi-joke. I was being serious in proving my point that the quotes of you nitpicking exist. But yeah, I realize it was after your question which is the joke part.

4 and 8 have a big differrence. Especially when we consider that 4 was probably average at the time.

The point was not your specific post count. The point was that he was calling you out for not contributing.

KMD: I wanted to know if Dcorbe ould keep with the "its my post" or admit his mistake.

I thought it was fairly obvious that he screwed up the tags.

[Kmd4390]

How many of the 8 posts had useful content?

[Kmd4390]

It was removed by Mith. I agree that it was offensive, but I honored the bet. I apologize.

It's over now though. Back to the game.

[Kmd4390]

No you didn't...

[Kmd4390]

Dej, "too scummy to be scum" doesn't exist. If everyone believed that logic, the optimal scum strategy would be to throw out scum tells every chance you get.

[Kmd4390]

Dej, "too scummy to be scum" doesn't exist. If everyone believed that logic, the optimal scum strategy would be to throw out scum tells every chance you get.

Hence my vote on him.

Ok. Fair enough.

[Kmd4390]

I say we lynch him, and then kick ourselves in the ass when we find out the asswipe was a jester =P

Good thing there are no jesters in this game.

[Kmd4390]

I agree with most of LK's last post. Yes, that's mostly what I've been saying for a while, but yeah, still feeling that way.

[Kmd4390]

Questions for everyone:
1. Do you feel safe having someone at L-6?
2. Is it dangerous to add more even if you aren't ready to lynch?
3. Or are they not feeling enough pressure to care they're at L-6?

1.Yes.
2.No.
3.They should be.

Wow, that post made it look like you've never played this game before...

vote dejkha

So what have you been doing that's scummy?

Is this intentional?

[Kmd4390]

About me: I don't like non-voters when there are bandwagons getting closer to L-1 because a non-voter only needs a weaker excuse to hop on than someone already voting for who they already think is most suspicious.

I agree with this, especially if a deadline is coming up.

[Kmd4390]

No where in this post did I say or imply that I thought he was at L-3 or L-4. It seems as though he may be putting words into my mouth to make me look bad/worse

You said:

Well, I didn't know he was at L-7. I didn't think he'd be at L-2 or something, but I figured I'd be cautious anyway. Actually voting right now won't accomplish much if it puts him at L-6. Even a vote to put pressure on him probably wouldn't work until he was at L-4 or so. So, I'm not voting right now. We needed to strike up a discussion and that's what I was going for (looks like it worked). Voting isn't necessary right now IMO.

You said you DIDN'T think he was around L-2. You said a pressure vote WOULDN'T work until L-4. You DIDN'T vote because he was at L-7 and L-6 wasn't close enough. Maybe you didn't mean you thought he was around L-4, but that's what it implied to me.

I never asked how many votes Zwet had. That would've had a much different effect on my FoS than if I had.

You said:

I'm not sure of the vote count right now, so I'll stick with FOS: Zwet just to be safe.

You're right that you didn't "ask" the vote count specifically. You still FoS'd "to be safe" because you weren't "sure of the vote count". It shows the same point I was making.

He claims I went through so much trouble just to not vote. Maybe I only feel this way, but does post 82 seem like I went through a lot of trouble to make a case? The only trouble I went through was repeating myself 10 times to the same question.

You made a case, FoS'd, and just left it there.

[Kmd4390]

Re: dekha's post 445. This effort and analysis looks like genuine scumhunting to me.

Remember that with two scum groups, even the scum are scumhunting.

[Kmd4390]

Hohum has jumped up to my #2 suspect.

Dej, the avatar is there as part of a bet. I have no choice.

[Kmd4390]

Still, I find that Wall-E, though endlessly amusing and no one of my favorite players, hasn't added any significant details aside from mild comedy. Anyone who doesn't see that is probably an idiot.

Actually, Wall-E looks pretty town to me.

I am going to leave my vote on KMD

Umm. Pretty sure you are voting Dej.

Curious KMD, what kind of bet? <---Totally off topic.

Super Bowl bet. Winner picks loser's avatar for a month.

[Kmd4390]

The whole dejkha could be scum because even scum scumhunt in this game idea is major WIFOM. FoS to anyone that supports this case.

Since when is that the case on dej? My point was that scumhunting doesn't excuse him for anything else.

[Kmd4390]

Where do i rank on your list of scummy people? Oo

I have no reason to think you are scum right now.

LK & Kmd: Why do you think my FoS (if there's any other reasons, include them) is more suspicious than Hohum's selective quoting and other reasons Kier and Caboose pointed out (in posts 514 and 533 respectively)? I would really like LK to answer first since he seems more likely to rephrase what Kmd says. So Kmd, please don't answer until he does.

Because it seems like you would have voted or not brought it up at all. TBH, it looked like a scum connection to Zwet.

Proof, you mean quotes!!!!

Yeah, Dej is obv scum.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Dej just did the same thing he's been after Emp for.

Since you love quotes so much, why not give me one where I say that's the reason (notice the singular) for voting for you.

Is this not EXACTLY what you went after Emp for?

I'm actually willing to lynch based on how god damn annoying you are. Do you know how unbelievably annoying you need to be, for that to happen? Pretty damn.

Do I even need to say why this is scummy?

[Kmd4390]

Dej, scum are going to want the other scum group dead. They are more of a threat. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't still be lynching the scummiest players. For example, I think you are scum who is doing a good job of scumhunting. I still want you lynched more than anyone else right now, but I'll listen to your opinions until then.

Anyway, you seem to be arguing more of "I am scumhunting, so keep me around" than "I am not scum". Seems off to me.

If your logic was accepted, and I were lurkerscum, I'd start scumhunting. By then, I wouldn't be able to be lynched. It's flawed logic.

Brock, why the mod vote so long after the RVS?

[Kmd4390]

I thought I saw something earlier about Light-Kun waiting for a response from me about something but I can't find it now.

I don't see it. At the bottom of the page, you can sort by only his posts. I don't see anything in his recent posts though.

[Kmd4390]

The scum should be more afraid of each other than town power roles.

[Kmd4390]

So your brother is the one about to get lynched in Grimmafia... Looks like lynchaliciousness runs in your family. Scum would definitely work together to out town first, and your argument is a bunch of bull fecal matter.

Please try to refrain from talking about ongoing games.

I second this....

[Kmd4390]

Me: *Writes Dejkha into Death Note. Walks off while counting to 40.*

Should have had Misa do it...

[Kmd4390]

I think Dej is at L-3...

[Kmd4390]

Jahudo, I am not agreeing with Dej. I think we lynch the scummiest player regardless of their scumhunting skills. Note that my vote is still on Dej.

What I am saying is that the scum are going to be going after each other. They are more of a threat to each other than we are. But we need to leave that to them. We have our own battle to fight with our lynches.

[Kmd4390]

Hammer. Now.

Should I? I'm active online right now... fairly bored. ...It's up to you guys!

He's at L-3.

[Kmd4390]

Dej, please claim. You are at L-2 with Wall-E threatening to vote.

[Kmd4390]

Caboose, no one called your vote a scumtell.

Dej, in a game like this, your opinions are valuable regardless of alignment, so obviously we want you to flip scum.

[Kmd4390]

Im not going to hammer, on the grounds that i dont think i could come up with a reasonable reason to do so. I think he looks scummy, i can tell from his actions, I just cant single out one specific, and frankly passable reason to vote for him, and thus hammer.

Do you think Dej is more likely to be town or scum?

[Kmd4390]

Im not going to hammer, on the grounds that i dont think i could come up with a reasonable reason to do so. I think he looks scummy, i can tell from his actions, I just cant single out one specific, and frankly passable reason to vote for him, and thus hammer.

Do you think Dej is more likely to be town or scum?

Scum. I know he has said, and done, scummy things. I also know that at this moment, my attention span isnt enough to remember something reasonable to vote for him.

Isn't it protown to want him lynched then?

Wow, I can't believe I haven't been lynched yet.

i would vote for you again if i could.

Oh, so would I. Trust me.

[Kmd4390]

Who found WC interesting yesterday? Was someone mildly rolefishing as to WC's alignment? Who did you notice paid attention to WC's actions?

These questions are for everybody

.

Does "everybody" include yourself? How would YOU answer these questions?

dejkha(11):

Kmd4390, hohum, White Castle, Empking's Alt, zwetschenwasser, don_johnson, Light-kun, orangepenguin, Caboose, Kieraen, Wall-E

This is probably our best place to look for scum. I'd be shocked if 11 townies mislynched without help from scum. White Castle has already flipped, so here's 10 names to look at. I realize I'm one of the 10. But here's a look at everyone's Dej vote.

Myself- I realize I'm biased here, so if someone else wants to look at it differently, go ahead. But anyway. I voted him early to add some pressure and get the game started. He looked scummy in his defense and following posts, so I left my vote and kept pushing him.

hohum-Shoots off suspicions early. Posts a list of lynches he'd like to see. Dej, Zwet, Emp in that order. Votes Zwet originally. Changes to Dej in the next post. Keeps pushing Dej up to the lynch. Looks like genuine suspicion, which again doesn't necessarily mean town. The only thing I find interesting here is the list that shows Dej first, the vote for Zwet, and the immediate switch to Dej.

Emp-His vote looks like OMGUS. Defends himself for most of the game. Changes his vote to Kieraen. Changes to hohum. Back to Kieraen. And back to Dej for being "as scummy as he's always been". Emp's voting patterns were typical of his Day 1 play as a whole.

Zwet- Joke votes White Castle. Votes Wall-E, LK, Emp. Votes Dej over the whole thing about lynching unhelpful players and keeping helpful scum alive. Just one of many good reasons to vote Dej IMO. But why did this one thing change your opinion so drastically?

don_johnson- Joke votes Zwet. Keeps pushing Zwet. Unvotes calling Zwet's response "reasonable", but "delayed". Votes Emp. Switches to Kierean next post. Votes Dej for saying scumhunting isn't a priority. TBH, this looks like a straight up bandwagon vote. But because scum are actually going to be scumhunting, I don't think an unreasoned vote has scummy motives unless the other options are partners. So if Emp or Zwet is scum, I may look to don as a partner. Other than that, I don't see much here. And now that I read up a little more, he switched to Emp again temporarily and then went back to Dej for the same reason as Zwet.

LK-Votes Dej early. Well reasoned vote. Continues to push. Switches to Brock, but quickly gets back on Dej. Votes Emp and then right back to Dej. I think LK was set on lynching Dej for most of the day. That's fine, but maybe he should have looked more closely at other players. (I probably should have done the same. I'll admit that.) I don't see much, if anything, scummy about LK's vote.

OP-Voted Zwet. Stayed on for quite a while. Switched to Dej for cautiousness and reactions to pressure. Also points out that his vote on Dej is L-2. OP was pretty lurky Day 1. His only clear stances are Dejscum, Zwetscum, and Emp not scummy.

Caboose-Joke votes Magua. Votes Dej for his use of FoS and OMGUS reaction. Reasonable early vote. Votes Zwet for "crap attacks". Votes Dej for the comment about scumhunting scum being helpful. Also acknowledges that Zwet hasn't done anything scummy lately.

Kieraen-Votes Emp. Switches to Dej to "end Day 1". Did you actually find Dej scummy or were you just trying to end the day? Did you not want to be connected to his lynch for some reason?

Wall-E- Joke votes don. Votes Zwet making sure we know the vote is a serious one. Votes OP. "confirms" vote on Zwet? Officially votes Zwet. Votes Emp. Back to Zwet. Votes Emp. Offers to hammer Dej. Drops the hammer very casually. Ballsy move. Nuetral read on Wall-E right now...

Rank of likliness to be scum of those on Dej's lynch IMO:
hohum
Kieraen
Zwet
don
OP
Emp
Caboose
Wall-E
LK
Kmd (obviously biased)

Guess I'll

Vote hohum

[Kmd4390]

(they carry over, right?)

No. You have to revote.

[Kmd4390]

If you don't remember it, shouldn't you go back to it and see if the same reasoning still applies?

[Kmd4390]

Do you have a reason to vote me other than the fact that Dej shot right up there on my scumdar?

What makes you think that's why I'm voting you? I said it looks like genuine suspicion. I'm curious about why you voted Zwet over Dej when your list showed Dej first and then you go right back to Dej in the next post.

Can you honestly sit there and tell me you've never in your history on MS changed your vote because someone was acting so OBVIOUSLY scummy?

Nope. Can't say that. Point?

Or are you simply voting me because I was one of the first people on his wagon?

No. Did I say that?

Can you honestly sit there and say that his behavior wasn't scummy?

No. He was scummy. Look back and tell me who originally brought the case on him. That's what I thought.

But what I'm saying is the scum would jump all over that. A scummy player who from their point of view is:
A) Opposing scum. In this case they jump on him just the same as a townie would.
Or
B) Scummy town. They will vote him over a partner.

So I really don't think all of the scum stayed off of his wagon. That's why his wagon is a good place to look for scum.

The 11 other people on his wagon can't all possibly be scum,

Of course not. But I find it unlikely that all 4 scum can be found in the 9 players who didn't vote Dej.

Let me make something clear. Yes, townies voted Dej. I don't blame those who did. Not at all. I just think that Dej was a good vote for scum to make and with the fact that he was lynched, I really think there are scum on his wagon. I am very confident in saying that. Not 100% obviously, but I'd be willing to bet on it.

were they just being led around by me?

No. I started the wagon. Not you.

Even though I received SHARP criticism for STAYING on his wagon, I must have been the one leading the town around, right?

First, you didn't even start the case. Second, everyone thinks for themself. Not one person said "hohum is voting Dej. Guess I will too." It doesn't work that way.

[Kmd4390]

hohum,

Want to explain this?

I'm curious about why you voted Zwet over Dej when your list showed Dej first and then you go right back to Dej in the next post.

You posted after I originally brought it up and again after this post without answering it.

Because I don't think ANYONE should be throwing votes around this early on D2 after a D1 mislynch, especially considering how scummy Dej was acting.

No one should be voting?!? Why?

Unvote: Vote: Kierian

for commenting on the night kill fruitlessly.

Is that even a scum tell. I'm not convinced based on my experiences.

Things like, "Well that kill sucks" or "Good job doc" are scumtells. But considering WC was an odd choice for a kill, some discussion on it is ok IMO. Someone probably picked up crumbs or something.

I told you why. I see your point about lynch vs vote though.

Did you?

[Kmd4390]

I've already answered this. You either don't know how to read or you like continually asking the same questions over and over again in hopes that I'll look even scummier.

Dej shot WAY ABOVE zwet in my scum radar.

But you had Dej listed above Zwet to begin with...

why did you ask the above question if you actually SAW the post.

I respond as I read. So I hadn't seen it yet.

[Kmd4390]

Hohum, I don't think you know what part of the game I am talking about.

Dejkha
Zwet
Empking

This is the list you gave.

Vote: Zwet

And I apologize for muti-posting. I'll try to contain my thoughts in single posts from now on.

You vote your number 2.

It makes no difference to me which one goes first, and I like where this wagon is headed, so:

Unvote
Vote: dejkha

And this is the post where you claim Dej "shot up" on your scumdar.

Caboose, I guess I just answered your request. XD

[Kmd4390]

Hohum, so your list was in random order? You didn't list Dej first because he was first to come to mind therefore being your top suspect? I think even a "random" list has the sub conscience effect of listing your top suspect first.

Zwet, I don't see the slip.

Brock, if you think someone is scum, vote them. Who cares if it looks scummy? The idea is to lynch scum and if you think someone is scum, but let them live because you don't have enough reason, you are playing to survive, not playing to win.

Also, the "retards" you ignore can be scum. Ignoring them gives them a free pass to win the game if they are.

[Kmd4390]

Yea, "Retards". Whats the likelyhood that a mafia member will actually play like that? Maybe newb scum, but...

For people who are like that in every game, the likelihood is exactly the same as anyone else.

Just lynching them because theyre annoying is wrong/unhelpful.

I agree. But that doesn't mean ignore them...

[Kmd4390]

Well, i use the term "ignore" Loosely...

Ok. Just as long as you aren't completely ignoring him.

[Kmd4390]

Bad cases aren't scumtells. Scum want to lynch the other scum group.

So now your case is: "still managed to look scummy"

[Kmd4390]

BT, do you still think Zwet is scum?

[Kmd4390]

Bad cases aren't scumtells.

Yes they are.

Funny coming from you.

Seriously though. In a game where scum are looking for other scum, wouldn't you expect a good case from scum just as much as town?

[Kmd4390]

Actually I'm saying that scum are looking for actual scum. So the opposite of what you are saying. Scum will have good cases.

[Kmd4390]

He is saying having a bad case will make you look pro town, and your saying that having a good case will make you look scummy. I think your contradicting yourself, or something of that manner ><

NOT what I'm saying. Good cases are NOT scummy. I'm saying bad cases aren't scummy. And I'm saying scum probably will have good cases. But so should town.

Basically, you make it look like I will call anyone with a good case scum. That's not the case. My point is what I said before. That's that a bad case is NOT a scumtell in this game.

[Kmd4390]

KMD is using Dejkha's logic, but he knows he's not going to be lynched for it because of yesterday. Scum.

Dej said don't lynch the scum if they are helpful. I'm saying don't be afraid to lynch a helpful player because they could very well be scum.

I fail to see how I am using Dej's logic. Try again.

[Kmd4390]

If you think he is scum, go for it.

[Kmd4390]

Brock, if you think he is scum, vote him. If you have evidence, you can convince everyone else. But even if you don't have evidence, but you think he is scum, I see no reason why you shouldn't be voting him.

[Kmd4390]

Wall-E, so any player who makes a mistake should be voted?

[Kmd4390]

Wall-E, so any player who makes a mistake should be voted?

The problem with absolute statements is that you can't trick me into making them.

So under the logic you presented, what makes this situation different from any other situation where a player makes a mistake?

[Kmd4390]

I agree with Wall-E here. There's nothing wrong with trying to think like scum (aka WIFOM). And I also agree that it is best for the scum to scumhunt.

[Kmd4390]

"Hey scum, let's form a temporary partnership, shall we?"

Now that's what Dej was saying....

[Kmd4390]

...and what you said in the post right before mine.

Not exactly. I said trying to WIFOM what the scum will do is acceptable. I also said that I think the scum are scumhunting. What I didn't say is that we should form a partnership with the scum and keep them alive.

Why are you strawmanning me?

[Kmd4390]

I'm not.

Afatchic is very active in another game.

[Kmd4390]

unvote

vote: jahudo

is that better?

Explain this vote please.

I was damn sure i was voting for zwet Oo

Maybe not...

Why isn't a vote attached to this post?

his guilt or innocence does not affect your own, emp

So, he didn't do any. Good we agree. So, you're joining a bandwagon with poor reasons. That's a scum tell of your's.

Did you see my stated reason? Quotes please.

HoScum is 100% right.

Scumhum and ScumHo work better IMO.

[Kmd4390]

Just refer to me as "Scummy McScumScum" from now on. KTHNX<3

Will do Scummy MsScumScum Hohum scum.

[Kmd4390]

kmd: if you were reading you would understand my vote on jahudo.

I'm reading and would still like an explanation.

[Kmd4390]

It almost looked like a random vote IMO. I don't think that in Jahudo's position, I'd have felt any pressure at all.

Avatar has to stay up until March 6. I'd change it if I could.

[Kmd4390]

RE: johnson: pressure votes are fine.

Do you think he went about pressure voting correctly?

You should be modkilled from life.

Sig'd.

[Kmd4390]

Zwet's last 5 posts:

He should be modkilled for threadjacking

penultimate post = angry scum because I uncovered his ploy

Yes.

I love it how Empking just starts chomping down on everyone in the game for no reason.

Aw... I wanted to argue with afatchic.

[Kmd4390]

It would be epic.

Zwet: Please make a case with bullet points in your next post.

Empking: Same.

[Kmd4390]

How do you do bullet points?

I just use a dash.

[Kmd4390]

KMD: You do it as well.

I'll have one up when I have more time.

[Kmd4390]

Yes I am. I'm doing this because I'm frustrated with the pace of this game. (or maybe it's just Empking screwing with my mind)

Not a good excuse.

I'm half tempted to just agree with Wall-E.

[Kmd4390]

I am getting the distinct feeling scum are trying to push the case on empking. All this talk about lynching him for "distracting" play is scummy in extreme.

I will look over who has been doing it the worst and then vote for them.

Why do you think it is scum-driven?

[Kmd4390]

Because the case is stupid.

If you were scum knowing there was another scum group out there, would you really push a stupid case?

[Kmd4390]

No to massclaim or ANY claim right now

[Kmd4390]

Kmd4390 and Kieraen, same question as Light-kun got. Why no mass claim now? What am I missing as far as negatives that overwhelm the following positives:

No reason to out power roles yet. They have no information or anything to give us with their claim, and they can't be 100% confirmed. I don't see the positives.

Reading your points now:

1. Forces the scum to choose how they're going to try to hid now rather than letting them wait to make an opportunistic decision down the line.

You mean fakeclaims? They can always be countered later. We don't need to expose power roles now.

2. Divides who we have to consider for a lynch into 3 classes (protection, information, vanilla) of which we get to lynch someone from the class that is least likely to yield a mislynch.

This still depends on what the scum fakeclaim. It's exactly the same as getting a claim near a lynch.

3. It should cut down on power roles interfering with each other (or at least give them a way to know their chances of interfering depending on how the scum claim.) Right now we'll have 5 power role actions to 2 scum actions; helping our power roles narrow down who the legitimate targets are should help them.

Assuming they survive tonight...

On another note you may consider somewhat important, who seems scummy to you right now?

[Kmd4390]

Vanilla.

I agree with Wall-E, but no point not doing it when so many have already.

[Kmd4390]

Don's vote isn't OMGUS.

[Kmd4390]

Four people left to claim: animorpherv1, Brocktree, magisterrain, Magua.

Animorph and Brock were recently replaced in other games...

[Kmd4390]

And on the other hand, the scum's pool of targets is now five. This was a crap idea and I hate you all.

Not true if the scum decide to try and take each other out. The scum are each other's biggest threat, not the town.

[Kmd4390]

And on the other hand, the scum's pool of targets is now five. This was a crap idea and I hate you all.

Not true if the scum decide to try and take each other out. The scum are each other's biggest threat, not the town.

Not in this game.

Yes. In this game.

[Kmd4390]

Wait, so we are claiming, but not being truthful about our claims?


I fail to see the logic in that beyond protecting docs and cops, but what info do we receive from it? It seems like a waste of time, and just to be a rebel, i will true claim:


Vanilla Townie. =P Thats right. Goddamned vanilla. We arent even a good flavour ice cream T_T

Um. We aren't being untruthful. Just not fullclaiming. And i fail to see how that is rebelling. You did exactly what we were asking.

Also, don is stretching severely on Wall-E's "lie".

[Kmd4390]

and hopefully the reminaing

townies

will soon post with their role group.

also, what makes you think that onnly "townies" haven't claimed?

This is a good catch and potentially a slip.

That's not a slip.

[Kmd4390]

Marathon Day took all of my time. I'll catch up this afternoon, but it doesn't look like I missed much.

MOD, IF YOU STILL EXIST OUT THERE SOMEWHERE, PLEASE REPLACE THE PLAYERS WHO HAVEN'T POSTED IN 12 YEARS OR SO.

[Kmd4390]

I'm Sorry I didn't get to this game. I'll get to it tonight or tomorrow.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I'm caught up. Didn't miss much except a couple of hohum votes, which I agree with.

[Kmd4390]

This happened to me in a beginners game, which ended today. It was really hard to get the game back up and running, and I don't know how we will continue this game with its complex rules if we havent got a back up mod.

Forward our roles to a new Mod.

Blak is around though. I've seen him post elsewhere.

[Kmd4390]

See my sig.

I'll catch up next week.

[Kmd4390]

I'll catch up when I can. I'm back though.

[Kmd4390]

unvote, vote: kmd

welcome back!

Heh. Thanks.

[Kmd4390]

We're waiting on a mod.

And claims unless they happened already. (Still need to catch up.)

[Kmd4390]

We're waiting on a mod.

And claims unless they happened already. (Still need to catch up.)

Ok I saw the vanilla claim and the hammer. Just the Mod I guess.

[Kmd4390]

Role sent.

[Kmd4390]

I'm sorry everyone. I just can't get this game organized for you. I'm going to declare this game mod abandon.

You are free to go.

[Kmd4390]

Whats the record for worst start to a mafia career?)

Ask Pacman.

I apologize if it's someone else I'm thinking of, but I remember seeing a sig that was like "0-10 lol" or something like that.