Mafia 88- Return to New Catania- Game Over!

[Xylthixlm]

Hi all. I skimmed the thread. I see we have lots of good players here. I also see that tubby216 is playing. Normally I'd lynch tubby216 on principle, but we have a player who is active lurking even more blatantly, so...

unvote, vote Puta Puta

[Xylthixlm]

Wait, I forgot about rule 3. "Scum" is an abstract concept, right?

unvote, vote scum

If this doesn't work my vote will go back to Puta Puta.

[Xylthixlm]

It was worth a shot.

unvote, vote Puta Puta

[Xylthixlm]

It's been almost 11 hours since my first post. Why isn't Puta Puta lynched yet?

[Xylthixlm]

I notice you've done exactly nothing so far this game, killa seven.

So many lurkers, and I only have one vote.

[Xylthixlm]

Reading through. Scummy posts get noted. Most scummy posts gets vote.

I suggest counting non-scummy posts and voting the person with the fewest.

[Xylthixlm]

I think it's clear puta puta is either (a) a useless, erratic townie, (b) someone who got a neutral role and doesn't know how to play it, or (c) a scum trying to appear as either a or b.

I'm happy with lynching any of the three.

[Xylthixlm]

I thought he was at L-2... we clearly need more frequent votecounts.

[Xylthixlm]

Reading through. Scummy posts get noted. Most scummy posts gets vote.

I suggest counting non-scummy posts and voting the person with the fewest.

That seems like a good way to help the scum know what behavior to continue. Bad plan, Xyl.

Really? It seems like it's quite easy to get a list of non-scummy posts by just taking all the posts and removing the ones you marked as scummy. There's no additional information there.

[Xylthixlm]

Meh. I have no problem with people posting their notes in thread; I do it myself occasionally.

On other other hand, taking notes on every single post doesn't seem very useful to me.

[Xylthixlm]

Side note: Someone please nightkill killa seven. Vig, mafia, I don't care who. Daykill would be even better.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't believe that for a moment. This game is day start.

[Xylthixlm]

i'm too lazy to post content.

Unvote Vote:Puta Puta

I'm a cop.

Are you a jester?

[Xylthixlm]

Good grief, I just read puta puta's output in the game you're talking about. He/she/it plays that way as

town

?

*deep breath*

THIS IS A

expletive deleted

TEAM GAME. PLAY TO HELP YOUR

expletive deleted

TEAM AS BEST YOU CAN, OR DON'T

expletive deleted

PLAY.

Vote is not moving unless Puta Puta suddenly suffers a personality change from having a truckload of clue dumped on his/her/it head.

[Xylthixlm]

My apologies for that outburst.

[Xylthixlm]

How rude.

Townies have two duties in this game: to help find scum, and to talk so that other townies can tell whether you are scum. You're not doing either. You're the mafia equivalent of the little league player who sits out in left field admiring the flowers and doesn't even try to catch the ball. It's obnoxious and makes the game less fun for me.

[Xylthixlm]

Well, don't deliberately do scummy things. Trying too hard to not look scummy tends to have a reverse effect.

[Xylthixlm]

I agree with that rule.

My rule is somewhat broader: You always lynch anyone who votes themself.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm really, really trying hard to convince myself to unvote Puta Puta in case he/she/it is a real cop.

So far it's not working.

[Xylthixlm]

You are, of course, absolutely correct, and I would unvote Puta Puta if it wasn't for the fact that he/she/it is self-voting. My view is that anyone who is self-voting must fall into one of three categories:
(1) Scum
(2) A townie or third party who has a good reason to get themselves lynched
(3) A townie who is not playing to win

I choose to act as though no one would be in category 3, as it is a violation of forum rules, and therefore lynching someone who self-votes is always the correct action.

[Xylthixlm]

I choose to assume that everyone is following the forum rules, and use that to guide my play. I don't think it's an unreasonable policy.

Selfhammering as cop is a reason to be banned from future games, not a reason to be coddled.

[Xylthixlm]

Ok... just curious, why would scum want to self vote again?

It probably breaks into subcategories just like the town case. For some reason I have a hard time worrying about scum who aren't playing to win when I'm town.

[Xylthixlm]

Incidentally, my policy of lynching selfvoters predates my first game on this site. You're unlikely to get me to change it.

[Xylthixlm]

Long discussion of self-voting.

[Xylthixlm]

See specifically this post by Mr. Flay which sums up my position on self-voting quite nicely.

[Xylthixlm]

Xylthixm, have you heard of Village Idiots?

I agree with this post.

Okay, that's enough mafia theory. Time to either lynch Puta Puta or start a bandwagon on killa seven.

[Xylthixlm]

Puta Puta, I'll unvote you if you explain what you've been thinking so far this game.

[Xylthixlm]

That's it?

[Xylthixlm]

I agree with that rule.

My rule is somewhat broader: You always lynch anyone who votes themself.

Claims this as a valid policy, but fails to follow it up, when i self-vote. Claiming to hold an opinion but being too afraid of controversy to back it up is scummy.

BM

I hope no one is stupid enough to think that my policy requires me to vote someone who self-votes and unvotes in the same post. Your transparent attempt to frame me is noted.

In other words, non-serious self votes don't count.

[Xylthixlm]

Puta Puta, I'll unvote you if you explain what you've been thinking so far this game.

looking for an escape route-a way to unvote without looking conspicuous.

Not a post you would see from a townie- if you think someone is scum, why would their thoughts on the game be enough to make you unvote, unless the vote was PURELY for lurking, which isnt enough for a vote anyway.

BM

The vote is PARTIALLY for lurking, I'm surprised you didn't think of that possibility.

Total reasons to vote puta puta with lurking > total reasons not to vote puta puta
Total reasons to vote puta puta if he/she/it stops lurking < total reasons not to vote puta puta

[Xylthixlm]

viewtopic.php?p=1374713#1374713

[Xylthixlm]

you wanna kill ur cop, fine with me.

This is a rudimentary scumploy only used by novice mafiates. Just check pretty much any newbie game if you want proof. In short, it confirms my vote.

I think we're being trolled.

[Xylthixlm]

unvote

pending replacement

[Xylthixlm]

Having players in the game whose play can't be analyzed for scumminess gives the scum an extra place to hide. I don't like giving the scum places to hide.

I am completely convinced that it's rational to vote lurkers in many situations even if lurking is not a scumtell for the player in question.

[Xylthixlm]

Fortunately, Puta Puta is being replaced, so the argument is academic until we go to bandwagon killa seven.

Rereading on the off chance that someone said something scummy in the last five pages.

[Xylthixlm]

BM 381: Slightly worrying, as I've used that line myself as scum.

militant 402: "beginning to annoy me" is not my favorite reason for a vote

SirT 404: Leaving a trail is good. Suspicion on BM noted. "deliberate" ambiguous playstyle, antitown.

Ectomancer 411: Yes.

BM 488: BM calling me "obvscum" means I'm playing right

Yos2 499: I agree with Yosarian2

BM 514: BM shows no evidence of considering whether my policy is a good idea

skitzer general: Where's that analysis?

[Xylthixlm]

Let's hear it for Gimbo

[Xylthixlm]

OMGUS. And ftr, it's fairly obvious to everyone here that your policy is completely idiotic, and barely even a policy, given that you haven't really thought/spelt out the specifics of it. Self-voting is clearly not a scumtell, which is why i see your pretending that is is, as scummy.

BM

Allow me to necro to state some things clearly for everyone:

1. If you are part of an Uninformed Majority (
   i.e.
   Town) in a game I am moderating and contribute to your own lynch by self-voting, I will consider you modkilled for violating your Win Condition, absent other circumstances^*.
   
2. If you contribute to your own lynch as a pro-town semi-experienced or IC player in a Newbie Game, as List Moderator I will ban you from ICing ever again^**.
   
3. If you contribute to your own lynch by self-voting (absent other circumstances^*) and turn out to be pro-town, I will not knowingly play with you again.

That is all.

^* I will never run a game with Lynchers or Jesters. It is possible some other mechanic could make this a viable strategy, but I will make that explicit in your Role PM.
^** There is an ongoing NG where this happened; please don't discuss it here until that game is over. I've already spoken to that player.

link

[Xylthixlm]

I think it's clear that

Puta Puta

Gimbo was just a distraction, and probably didn't even remember his actual role.

[Xylthixlm]

BM, connect the dots. If it is against the rules of the game to be on your own lynch as town without a good reason, then anyone who is self-voting with intent to be on their own lynch is either (a) not town, (b) possessed of a good reason, or (c) breaking the rules. Cases 'a' or 'b' are good reasons to lynch the person. Case 'c' is handled by extra-game mechanisms.

[Xylthixlm]

Moving on... I have some questions for killa seven: Why did you wait over 20 pages before making a useful contribution to the game? Do you feel that lurking is good town play?

[Xylthixlm]

have you played with me before?

No, but I'm currently doing a research project on people who adopt deliberately antitown playstyles, and I'd like your input.

[Xylthixlm]

Oh wow, that's a pretty thorough OMGUS. No townie points to tubby216 for making it. I especially like the implication that OGML is calling tubby scummy because he has a personal grudge; it sounds like tubby isn't even considering scumhunting as a possibility? I think I need to go find the "weirdly vague softclaim-type thing" OGML says tubby216 made.

An unrelated point for my future reference: I really don't like the idea of someone playing deliberately ambiguous; it's bad for the town. "I'm playing badly because I don't want to be night killed" (or whatever SirT said) doesn't sit very well with me.

[Xylthixlm]

"I'm playing badly because I don't want to be night killed"

I never said I was playing "badly". I just meant that I wasn't trying to be "obviously" townie which I usually am (regardless of my role) early on in the game.

Follow along.

You're obviously townie...
...so the town is less likely to lynch you...
...so the town is less likely to lynch an innocent player...
...so the town is more likely to lynch scum.

Therefore, not playing obviously townie lowers the town's chances of lynching scum, and therefore lowers the town's chances of winning. What do you call that? I call it bad play.

[Xylthixlm]

If you're scum, it's good play. If you're town, it's bad play. It's very easy for scum to convince themselves to do something that benefits scum by rationalizing "I would have done that even if I was town", so I take anything that helps scum more than town as a scumtell regardless of excuses.

I'm not saying you're scum, but it is a data point I'm considering.

[Xylthixlm]

In my experience, scum often go to the gallows convinced that the case against them is bullshit and they would have done the exact same thing as town.

The human mind has an extraordinary capacity for self-deception.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm assuming that if you're scum, playing "obviously townie" is not an option; the choices are "deliberately ambiguous" and "obviously scum".

I'm sure you can work out the results with those two as options.

[Xylthixlm]

vote: killa seven

for not actually answering my questions from post 543.

[Xylthixlm]

Okay, tubby's aggressive defense is really sticking out like a sore thumb here. There's a better-than-random chance he's scum, and I don't think having him alive later will help the town much.

unvote killa seven, vote tubby216

[Xylthixlm]

Why are you so concerned about being voted?

[Xylthixlm]

tubby: Did OGML pushing hardest for your lynch influence your decision that he's scum?

Does anyone else on the wagon look scummy to you?

[Xylthixlm]

unvote tubby216

Maybe I'm underestimating scum-tubby, but that reaction feels townish to me.

[Xylthixlm]

vote: killa seven

Contribute or die. I'd prefer the former, but I'd settle for the latter.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, aside from lurkers, who do you find the scummiest right now and why?

Honestly, my ability to find scum in a large game on day 1 is pretty weak. Nobody has done anything scummy enough to make them a better lynch than a lurker, aside from tubby who is giving inconsistent reads.

[Xylthixlm]

do you still feel that tubby is being aggressively defensive?...

Something tubby said in the answer to my question 'clicked' and convinced me he's likely town. I'm really at a loss to explain why. I just thought "oh, I've seen this pattern before. he's a newbie, not a power role, and trying hard to find scum but failing because he's a newbie".

[Xylthixlm]

vote: killa seven

Contribute or die. I'd prefer the former, but I'd settle for the latter.

argh lol.

ReVote: Xyl

I guess i spoke too soon. xD

BM

I'd explain myself but there's already a thread on why lurker hunting is good.

I love you too, BM.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't expect to have much sympathy for my viewpoint, but I actually think there is an optimum and non-zero level of suspicion. When I play this game, I don't aim to be a squeaky-clean "obv townie". Take self-voting as an example. Whenever I do it, I inevitably attract suspicion from people. I also generate a debate, which creates an environment better for me to scumhunt in.

I find that I attract plenty of suspicion with just my normal town play, particularly from people who haven't played with me much.

I partially agree with you, and partially disagree with you. I don't think that putting extra effort into not looking scummy is worthwhile if you're town (mainly because it usually has the opposite of the intended effect). On the other hand, I don't think townies should be deliberately drawing suspicion on themselves; there's enough ambient suspicion on this game that it will fall somewhere, and the higher the chance it's on scum the better. And townies should

absolutely not

be deliberately trying to match their scum playstyle.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, aside from lurkers, who do you find the scummiest right now and why?

Honestly, my ability to find scum in a large game on day 1 is pretty weak. Nobody has done anything scummy enough to make them a better lynch than a lurker, aside from tubby who is giving inconsistent reads.

Thats a copout.

Yes it is.

[Xylthixlm]

BM is assuming that, even though the mod isn't explicitly confirming him, he wouldn't have educated tubby about the no-quoting rule unless that was from tubby's real role PM.

This is a better assumption with some mods than with others.

Also, agreed with BM that mods should keep participation to a minimum.

[Xylthixlm]

Khelvaster in mini 551 was an excellent example of why mods should be as terse as possible.

I believe tubby is town, but it's not because of The Fonz.

[Xylthixlm]

Khelvaster in mini 551 was an excellent example of why mods should be as terse as possible.

I believe tubby is town

Qft. In fact Mini 551 is the prime example that sticks in my mind of why i am more than willing to exploit mod slips.

BM

Why did you edit my quote?

[Xylthixlm]

vote: killa seven

Contribute or die. I'd prefer the former, but I'd settle for the latter.

Come on people. He's lurked 27 pages, do you think he's going to stop spontaneously?

I'm pretty sure plenty of you aren't voting, so do something useful with your votes.

[Xylthixlm]

Unvote Vote: Yos.
I have read some of Natirasha's other games. Terse and angry seems pretty normal.

Huh? I didn't say anything about Natirasha's other games. Do you have me confused with someone else, or what?

This strikes me as an attempt to distract the issue.

Shanba, what's the issue anyways?

[Xylthixlm]

Psychological research tells us that decisions made on gut are usually better than decisions made on logic.

But it would still be nice if you could explain what you're seeing, Shanba.

[Xylthixlm]

BM clearly thinks tubby is town, and apparently believes all right-thinking townies should share his opinion.

Unfortunately for him the people who share his opinion are me and Shanba, who he doesn't think are right-thinking townies.

I see some cognitive dissonance here.

[Xylthixlm]

Go lurker wagons.

unvote, vote: Der Hammer

[Xylthixlm]

You don't critically evaluate a gut read. You evaluate whether the person making it really has a gut read.

[Xylthixlm]

Ask questions, like you're doing. There's always a reason behind a true gut read, even if it takes a while to find. But there's nothing wrong with putting the vote on first and looking for the reason later.

[Xylthixlm]

I agreed with you up until "But a vote should only be based on reason/s". I think this is just a playstyle difference.

Shanba's "gut" vote makes me think he's more likely to be protown, for now. He's not the type of person who fakes gut reads as scum. I'll be interested to see what reason he comes up with though, and if he never comes up with one I'll have to change my assessment.

[Xylthixlm]

"How does it feel to replace Gimbo?"

[Xylthixlm]

Vote: Der Hammer

[Xylthixlm]

The miller claim was bad. Lynch all claimed millers still applies.

[Xylthixlm]

The miller claim was bad. Lynch all claimed millers still applies.

I haven't heard of "Lynch all claimed millers" before. Lest I get the impression that it is just an empty slogan, would you mind explaining to me the rationale for such a policy?

Maybe I'm imagining it (I'm on the 4th day of a bad cold, and not thinking clearly). I think it was something about scum using miller claims to avoid cop investigations.

[Xylthixlm]

I have trouble imagining an argument for why a miller claim should be less incriminating than a guilty result from a cop.

[Xylthixlm]

Something like this.

If there was a guilty cop result on someone, you would lynch them even if they claim miller.

If someone claims miller early, then you know that any cop inspect on them

will

be guilty. That means that there is no difference in information about the miller's alignment whether or not the cop uses an inspection. (The cop knows, too, and will never actually inspect the miller). So a claimed miller is logically equivalent to an inspected miller.

Since you would lynch an inspected miller, and a claimed miller is logically equivalent to an inspected miller, you should lynch a claimed miller.

[Xylthixlm]

There's an asymmetry there between claim-before-investigation and claim-after-investigation which shoots a hole in the argument. I'm too tired and sick to work out how bad it is.

[Xylthixlm]

Ironically, before Der Hammer's miller claim, I was voting ... Der Hammer.

If I wasn't voting Der Hammer I would be voting killa seven.

I

really

don't like how quickly Der Hammer backs off his self-vote. It completely wipes out the "scum wouldn't do that" argument.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm back, catching up.

Caught up yet?

[Xylthixlm]

I'm back, catching up.

Caught up yet?

Can I ask why you are focused on killa seven when others are lurking just as badly?

Who?

[Xylthixlm]

I'm back, catching up.

Caught up yet?

Can I ask why you are focused on killa seven when others are lurking just as badly?

Who?

I noted ZZ and Sens are both in the lurks lack of info area. However Sens I do have notice is having RL issues. Also many including myself have been prodded.

After we get k7 to contribute we can bandwagon xyzzy next. Though from what I know of xyzzy, he isn't as bad a habitual lurker as k7.

[Xylthixlm]

After we get k7 to contribute we can bandwagon xyzzy next. Though from what I know of xyzzy, he isn't as bad a habitual lurker as k7.

Don't you think the person who doesn't lurk as norm is more suspicious or is this like what you said somewhere else about getting the lurker types to change there ways or vote them off?

I have hope that xyzzy will start contributing spontaneously without a wagon.

*eyes xyzzy*

[Xylthixlm]

Though from what I know of xyzzy, he isn't as bad a habitual lurker as k7.

You obviously don't know much of xyzzy.

I know he has a cool nick.

[Xylthixlm]

My God, it's full of WIFOM!

[Xylthixlm]

But seriously. Your argument opens the way to massive scum WIFOM gambits. At the very most, you should give Der Hammer enough townie credit to cancel out the miller claim; no more. "Don't lynch him ever" is right out.

[Xylthixlm]

Der Hammer is clearly trying to get himself lynched.

I'm not sure if I believe the miller claim is the real reason for it.

There's definitely no way I would agree to not lynch DH in the future.

[Xylthixlm]

Mod: Please prod killer seven.

[Xylthixlm]

Killa seven has gone four days without posting, having been prodded twice already. According to the rules, he will now be forcibly replaced.

Yay!

[Xylthixlm]

Claiming miller helps scum, so the balance of WIFOM demands that claiming miller be inherently scummy.

[Xylthixlm]

Claiming miller helps scum, so the balance of WIFOM demands that claiming miller be inherently scummy.

How does claiming miller help scum?

Logically, if you actually are a miller, the not claiming might help scum, since if you claim you at least don't waste a cop investigation.

Claiming miller

as a falseclaim

helps scum

because it removes the possibility that they will be caught by a cop

, so the balance of WIFOM demands that claiming miller be

viewed as

inherently scummy

by the town in order to neutralize the possible benefit to scum of claiming it

.

[Xylthixlm]

Now with killer 7 being replaced who will you be voting for now Xylthixlm

Try reading the last vote count.

[Xylthixlm]

Guys, I think we've got a decision to make, right here, right now. Either we lynch Ectomancer immediately, or we trust him completely forever. THOSE ARE THE ONLY OPTIONS.

It took me a minute to realize this is sarcasm.

Ectomancer strikes me as sincere but misguided. I don't think that's a scumtell or a towntell.

Still up for a Der Hammer lynch. I don't like his play, and I don't like leaving a claimed miller alive.

[Xylthixlm]

So is this how games were like in the old day? Long tl;dr posts over stuff that isn't even important(I think, as I said, I tl;dred).

I think so, yes.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm fine with a SirT or Der Hammer lynch. A tubby216 lynch, not so much - he's playing differently here than he did in the game I modded where he was scum.

[Xylthixlm]

At this stage, it doesn't matter if the claim is true or false though. Der Hammer has managed to separate himself from the rest of the town with the claim. That's good enough if he is mafia. He won't (or, rather shouldn't) survive for long. So, in case he is mafia, he's in the bag.

This is a ridiculous argument for not lynching someone.

Fos: Sir Tornado

[Xylthixlm]

Don't like this directing of the vig. Seems like Mafia trying to get a vig to do their dirty work.

Er... mafia would want to NK a a person who claims a miller... why exactly?

This is a ridiculous argument for not lynching someone. Fos: Sir Tornado

Did you read the preceding paragraph?

That's

the reason.

Either he is scummy and should be lynched, or he isn't scummy and therefore not "in the bag". Pick one.

[Xylthixlm]

Either he is scummy and should be lynched, or he isn't scummy and therefore not "in the bag". Pick one.

You mean something along the lines of:

Guys, I think we've got a decision to make, right here, right now. Either we lynch Ectomancer immediately, or we trust him completely forever. THOSE ARE THE ONLY OPTIONS.

?

No.

He is unreadable to me in terms of alignment based on that miller claim. Not sufficiently scummy to lynch yet. Also, by "in the bag", I meant to indicate that there was no way he could be scum and get away with this forever. It's the same scenario as with Puta Puta. I don't see anyway he is going to live until end game after that claim, so I am not too concerned to lynch him right now.

So, if I understand your position correctly, he is scummy enough that we will lynch him eventually but not scummy enough to lynch today. Is that correct?

[Xylthixlm]

Let's change the question. If, through some amazing miracle, DH stayed exactly as scummy as he is now for the rest of the game, at what point would you be willing to lynch him?

[Xylthixlm]

Mod: Hoopla appears to be voting twice

We need to get a majority before deadline, or there will be no lynch. No lynch is Bad. We have two players who are being replaced so we can't count on them voting. It's 12 to lynch, so a minimum eight players need to either grow the courage to place a vote, or to give up on lynching their first choice, between now and deadline. Deadline is a little over a week away. Did I miss anything important here?

[Xylthixlm]

FoS

anyone who posts just to say "prod recieved, I'll post later".

[Xylthixlm]

Under normal circumstances, I'd agree, but Puta Puta was a troll who joined games specifically to fuck with them. It's entirely possible that he didn't even read his role PM, and even if he did, I doubt his choice of claim had any particular connection to it.

I could find only one more game when I checked his posting history (this was while he was still in the game). IIRC, he hadn't done something as drastic as this in that one.

Puta Puta was a confirmed Gimbo alt.

[Xylthixlm]

hello everyone.
whew, there are quite a few pages to read in this game! it may take me a few days to get completely caught up, but ill give it my best

Be cool like me and start posting without reading the whole thread.

[Xylthixlm]

We're 7 days away from deadline - if you look at the amount of 'prodded, I'll post later', 'catching up now' type posts, and the amount of general inactivity in the game I think trying to organise a lynch prior to the last minute is valid. We're also at a stage of D1 where new, pressing cases are unlikely to surface, and if one does I want to have time to readjust.

I don't want the town to get into a situation where there is 2 days until deadline, our chosen lynch then claims something useful, and then we have to scramble to lynch someone else. This throws the lynch back towards random and gives scum a far easier chance to orchestrate a mislynch.

QFT

And, yeah, this is something that really ticks me off. If you think someone is scum,

vote for them

and try to convince others to do so too. Keeping quiet and just saying "I think X is scum, but I am not voting for him because the wagon died" without trying to push that wagon when we are an entire week away from deadline is just pathetic.

A week is not a long time in this game. Given the deadline, not voting someone you think is scum is entirely rational as town.

[Xylthixlm]

A week is not a long time in this game. Given the deadline, not voting someone you think is scum is entirely rational as town.

I disagree with this. It gives scum a good excuse to get someone lynched without making a case on that person on D1; and then go back to the person they were trying to set the lynch of originally on D2. A week is a long time in mafia game.

How long does it take to convince the majority of the town that someone should be lynched, have them claim a power role, and then convince the majority of the town that a

second

person should be lynched? Do you think all that can be done in orderly fashion in a week? If we take four days to decide on the first candidate and then they claim power, do you think we can get a good second candidate in the last three days? What about five and two?

[Xylthixlm]

Der Hammer lurks for a while, then suddenly claims miller, votes himself and asks to be lynched, then when he's not immediately lynched he unvotes himself and starts attacking the people who voted him.

[Xylthixlm]

Der Hammer lynch > Seraphim lynch.

[Xylthixlm]

i dont even really know about seraphim. it really just seems like the only viable wagons at this point are on people who could turn out town as easily as scum.

I hate, hate, hate the phrase "could turn out town as easily as scum". It's a weasel phrase used by people who are afraid to commit to a lynch even though they don't have any better option. We have to lynch

somebody

, and the chances are that person will be town, because most players in the game are town! The absolute probability of any given day 1 lynch being scum is irrelevant, it's only the relative probability compared to other lynches that matters.

[Xylthixlm]

I'll move my vote to Seraphim if it's needed for a lynch, but right now I completely fail to see why Seraphim is a better vote than Der Hammer. Can anyone fill me in?

[Xylthixlm]

as far as i can tell, its all

random

scum-driven.

Fixed.

[Xylthixlm]

I agree with tubby216.

Elmo: I'm still mulling over the virtues of a lynch all millers policy. Even without one, though, I'm pretty sure that DH is a better lynch than Seraphim; he's slightly scummier on play, and the miller claim widens the gap a lot.

[Xylthixlm]

My point was not that he followed a meta policy. My point was he tried to formulate a meta policy where what he does 'normally' is actually going to work better and indeed he knows to be optimal.

What is optimal play for the town is not necessarily optimal play for individual protown players. If I think the meta is far from the optimum, I take an extreme position on the other side to try to pull the town as a whole closer to optimum.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm not Scum. Some of you are making the right decision.

If you knew that Seraphim wasn't scum either, which of you would you want lynched?

[Xylthixlm]

tubby216 just massively spiked my scumdar.

but after some discussion claus could better pick out who his suspect should be.

Looks like he's trying to preemptively discredit the claimed cop...

[Xylthixlm]

Trying to remember why I said that...

Oh yeah, I was comparing his play in this game to his play in relative chaos where I knew he was scum.

I can't remember what specifically made me think he was playing differently though.

[Xylthixlm]

Final Votecount: like the previous one, but with added HAMMAH!

OhGodMyLife (2): farside22, Sir Tornado

I´m not terribly surprised that Sir T went down. I am pretty surprised that there was only one night kill.

Why are you not surprised that SirT was killed? He seems like he would have been good for scum to leave alive if you're town.

[Xylthixlm]

xyl can you give an example of when you were scum in a game, a nifty link would be neat-o!! thanks

Games where I've been scum: viewtopic.php?t=7403, viewtopic.php?t=7091
Games where I've been town: viewtopic.php?t=8721

Or you could just check my wiki...

[Xylthixlm]

Why are you not surprised that SirT was killed?

Why do I feel like you were planning on laying the blame for Sir T´s death at my feet long before you made this post?

Please answer the question. Why are you not surprised that SirT was killed?

[Xylthixlm]

Oh

.

Good point. Carry on.

[Xylthixlm]

I think I'd rather look at DH and tubby today rather than OGML.

[Xylthixlm]

DH was one of the top two lynch candidates yesterday. Why shouldn't we keep looking at him today?

[Xylthixlm]

The only reason I see to not lynch DH is if he will be vigged.

[Xylthixlm]

EBWOP:

vote: Der Hammer

[Xylthixlm]

That sounds awfully like "We needed to either lynch Der Hammer yesterday or give him a free pass forever".

[Xylthixlm]

Question: Does Xtoxm always play like this?

[Xylthixlm]

Shanba, the scummiest thing I see on CKD is that he keeps doing "I'll read later" posts.

CKD, what's your opinion on SensFan?

[Xylthixlm]

unvote, vote SensFan

[Xylthixlm]

a bit premature don't ya think? i would have waited til monday to vote sens

He's stalling. It only takes ten minutes to read the last page and post a quick impression.

[Xylthixlm]

Shanba, your case on ckd is good.

[Xylthixlm]

I've seen Sens do this before as town, fwiw.

By itself that means nothing.

[Xylthixlm]

?

I was replying to Xtoxm, not you.

[Xylthixlm]

I've seen Sens do this before as town, fwiw.

By itself that means nothing.

I'd love to hear the explanation for this.

A meaningful statement would be "

I've seen Sens do this as town just as often as I've seen him do it as scum

". That would provide information on whether it's a scumtell for him. Just "I've seen Sens do this as town" provides no information on whether it's a scumtell for him, because there's nothing to compare to.

To take an example, I'm told that lurking is my biggest scumtell on IRC. However, I definitely lurk as town, just a little less than I do as scum. The fact that I lurk as town doesn't negate the scumtell.

[Xylthixlm]

As far as I can tell the momentum in this game consists entirely of lurker bandwagons.

[Xylthixlm]

OGML: I do think you're town, but you really need to work on your aim.

[Xylthixlm]

unvote, vote natirasha

Die scum die, etc, etc.

[Xylthixlm]

Elmo: Correct play when a player claims cop with a guilty result early on is well-known. If he's lying, he gets lynched tomorrow. If he's paranoid, he gets lynched tomorrow.

[Xylthixlm]

I'd say we have two mafias, and both of them killed Claus.

[Xylthixlm]

The fact that Natirasha came up "Florida Mafia", and the fact that Claus died.

[Xylthixlm]

It does make it odd, doesn't it.

[Xylthixlm]

What the ****?

People don't title PM's properly.

[Xylthixlm]

The mod makes one mistake that kills a cop who shouldn't have died, and another mistake that doesn't kill a cop who should have died, and we end up with no cops

[Xylthixlm]

EBWOP: or, at least, one fewer cop than we should have.

[Xylthixlm]

I like voting for dead town... not.

No lynching until claus-stump says he's ready to die.

I don't think there are two mafia groups. The "Florida" bit is just a red herring.

Vote: Xylthixlm

Given that we pretty much know there were three nightkill attempts last night, I'm really curious how you reached that conclusion.

[Xylthixlm]

When I PMed MafiaSSK to complain, he said that the mistake was due to him not seeing some of the night actions. Ergo, Claus was shot, and MafiaSSK failed to process a doc protect on him.

[Xylthixlm]

The two cops are making me believe Der Hammer's claim a lot more now.

Either that, or we have a ridiculous number of scum. I think I'd prefer a miller(s).

[Xylthixlm]

Don't read too much into it - at least it's better than the triple comma.

[Xylthixlm]

vote: magisterrain

[Xylthixlm]

This is more evidence in favor of my "killa seven lurks when he's scum" theory.

[Xylthixlm]

I suppose it doesn't matter, since I'm never going to play in another game with k7 in it ever again.

[Xylthixlm]

vote: SensFan

obvscum.

Preview edit: I'm in violent agreement with iamausername. This is only going to feed OGML's paranoia.

[Xylthixlm]

Nice misrep on that one.

Please point to a contentful post you've made recently (but prior to the start of day 3).

[Xylthixlm]

no the part where you voted me,

it seems off, like out of the three people you mentioned as scum ( with out any justification or insight i might add) u decided to vote for me. Wich in all likelyhood is the easier lynch since i came so close to it back on day.

You have no real evidence, no quotes or slip ups to point out. I believe you are scum and are trying to skate to a win.

Oh wow. I couldn't have written a scummier defense for tubby if I tried. "I didn't make any slip ups! You have no evidence!" I'm definitely up for a tubby216 lynch.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm guessing SensFan and tubby are scum on different teams.

[Xylthixlm]

Who were we lynching again? I forget.

[Xylthixlm]

Oh yeah. SensFan and/or tubby. Get your votes on, people.

[Xylthixlm]

I have a proposal: If SensFan doesn't have his post done within 24 hours, we lynch him unconditionally. Fair?

[Xylthixlm]

I have a proposal: If SensFan doesn't have his post done within 24 hours, we lynch him unconditionally. Fair?

Time's up.

unvote, vote SensFan

[Xylthixlm]

What more is there to say about tubby's play?

If that's all you were going to say you could have said it four days ago. You've been stalling, and that's not protown.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm pretty sure I've seen SensFan do this before as scum.

[Xylthixlm]

I keep forgetting this game is on day 4. It still feels like day 1.

I should probably go analyze dead scum or something.

[Xylthixlm]

Tubby: SInce Sensfan is totally failing at trying to make a case against you, it would be wise for you to actually make a case against him, especally since you've been voting him for a while now and all you said about it was "I'm good with that".

Isn't it obvious? They're both scum, on different teams. They're in the spotlight and too afraid that they'll link themselves to their buddies if they contribute content.

[Xylthixlm]

It's not a matter of versus. They're both scum, and we're lynching SensFan first.

[Xylthixlm]

It's not a matter of versus. They're both scum, and we're lynching SensFan first.

Ok great, then you won't mind doing a complete recap of your case on each one of them. (Ecto is a hypocrite)

Sensfan: post, post
tubby216: post

[Xylthixlm]

I wouldn't lynch Sensfan on the stalling and lack of content motifs.

I would.

If I were to find the slip that you mean, it is probably this piece, and I think I may agree with you. It's what I call the "Ya got nuttin on me" defense.

You have no real evidence, no quotes or slip ups to point out.

That's the one.

[Xylthixlm]

CuriousKarmaDog, Der Hammer, Xtoxm, and vollkan I charge you all with hammering SensFan immediately. I will certainly view any cowardly reluctance to lynch your scumbuddy in a poor light.

[Xylthixlm]

Considering all the stalling you've done so far?

No.

[Xylthixlm]

Dec 20:

Sorry for absense, catching up.

Next post, Jan 15:

Whoops. I'm on this game this weekend.

Next post, Jan 21:

Alright, so its taking me a little more time than had planned. I will be contributing by THIS weekend. Guaranteed.

Then you don't want any discussion to happen the next day.
This day, you start posting Jan 12. There's a few posts of content then:

I never said I was having access issues. I said I didn't have hours to put together huge posts. Look for those next week, when I'm back home on Reading Week.

A bit more content, then the game dies for a bit. Your next post:

Starting with tubby, wil be done slightly.

And then you agree to a 24 hour deadline, it passes, and we finally get this:

Sorry, got a little busy.

Anyways, I went to go for a detailed analysis of tubby's posts so far, and I really couldn't. His posts are basically all one-liners, and there is a ton of OMGUS and other faulty logic.

The evidence speaks for itself.

[Xylthixlm]

Thus disproving the adage "better late than never".

Actually I think a better lesson is "a post in time saves nine".

[Xylthixlm]

Or, you know, "Don't hammer the guy that caught up but didn't have time to make large posts within a week."

No, that's a bad lesson.

[Xylthixlm]

You've gone from 0 days of useful posting per month to 1 day of useful posting per month.

[Xylthixlm]

Bah, go

[censored]

[Xylthixlm]

OGML: I do think you're town, but you really need to work on your aim.

This is me breadcrumbing that I had worked out OGML as vig.

He shot me anyways. Bastard.

[Xylthixlm]

OGML: I do think you're town, but you really need to work on your aim.

This is me breadcrumbing that I had worked out OGML as vig.

He shot me anyways. Bastard.

And you were the closest I got to shooting scum.

Have I mentioned I don't particularly like being vig?

I may have technically been scum/neutral, but I had no inside info and was doing my best to play a town. Good job.