Open 111- Immunity Mafia: Mod abandon

[Zorblag]

/confirm

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Hmm, we seem to be an eager bunch here. I'll start with a

Vote: Chelsea7272

for being the first person (alphabetically by name) not to have done anything so far.

Some thoughts beyond that:

Jahudo (23): We should all have learned from Gilligan's Island that it doesn't work to try to build a raft or a boat; if the Professor couldn't use them to get off an island clearly we can't either.

zwetcshenwasser (31): Was there a reason that you repeated a meaningless post (28) almost 2 hours later without anything in between the two relevant to it?

Kmd4390 (36): I wouldn't have thought the game had started at that point but it looks as though I was wrong.

Wall-E (38): It looked more like zwetcshenwasser was having fun than anything else up to there.

Brocktree (78): Out of curiosity, do you have a preferred method of determining who seems scummy if people don't say who seems scummy? Is there something else you like to use to motivate discussion?

magisterrain (83): I wouldn't find it that surprising to find someone seeming scummy to me by now and wouldn't find it disingenuous to have someone else feel that way already. It doesn't mean that I expect people to necessarily be correct yet but there's no reason not to have suspicions.

dejkha (93): It's true that you don't need to vote yet but down the road how people have voted with be information we have to work with. I don't know if Kmd4390 is pressuring you to vote or not but I do know that I'd like to see everyone who doesn't have a current vote place it somewhere.

Mod: I think that Empking's Alt is voting for Animorpherv1 and Wall-E is voting for Orange Penguin rather than what you've got listed

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

This is a quick post to let people know I am about. I've been both more busy than normal and dealing with the flu so I haven't had the time or energy to be in the game like I should. Things have mostly calmed down now and I'm feeling much better so I'll be getting some thoughts out there this evening. For now I just wanted to get on and let people know what was happening from this end.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

OK, there's been a lot of activity in the game but much of it seems to be low on useful content. Let's see if I can give my take on some central themes:

I'll start with an

Unvote

(even though my previous vote didn't seem to get counted.) I had been voting for chelsea7272 who has been replaced with hohum who is posting.

Empking's Alt has been the center of a fair amount of focus. I do tend to agree that he does seem to be quibbling about relatively minor issues rather than focusing on scum hunting but at the same time I think that it is as unproductive to insult him as some have chosen to. I am not opposed to the votes he is garnering now but thus far I am inclined to think that what we're seeing is personality rather than scumminess.

zwetschenwasser made a fairly large jump in his take on Empking's Alt in his 21st and 22nd posts (looking at his posts in isolation) which is curious as he went from saying that this was the expected meta directly to saying that this was WIFOM action. I also wonder if there isn't a bit of an overreaction to hohum's entrance in the game and first post (saying it was jumping on the easiest bandwagon.)

Wall-E, it looks as though you would like to vote for zwetchenwasser at this point but Empking's Alt's play is irritating enough that your vote is currently there. Is that the case? If it is could you give a quick summary on what you don't like (I know it's out there but I want to see your current thoughts if they've been refined at all by what you've seen.)

...
Brocktree (78): Out of curiosity, do you have a preferred method of determining who seems scummy if people don't say who seems scummy? Is there something else you like to use to motivate discussion?
...

Personally, on the first day, after a few pages, enough for a serious discussion pops up. Who i find scummy is, in my opinion, a good question to get the convo moving, but im not really sure how to get it going otherwise, other than some sort of gambit.

Although your method works too =P Anything else youd like to ask?

I was asking this question at the time as you seemed to be indicating that you didn't want to give your suspicions and tip your hand. I can't tell exactly what your stance on players opinions being public is as you seem to shift around a bit. I do however agree that town players can set perfectly legitimate traps and that there is a level of openness which goes too far.

Animorpherv1, the last thing that you said was that you thought dejkha was town. Is that still the case and was there any reason in particular that you decided to share that?

For now I'm going to

Vote: White Castle

. I know given my level of activity this is somewhat hypocritical but I'd like to see some activity beyond acknowledging that we have in fact started the game.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

For now I'm going to Vote: White Castle.

If he gets replaced before he starts posting, which seems more and more likely to me, who among the active do you find most suspicious?

Well, he is posting now so the replacement issue is less likely to come up but that doesn't make your question invalid. I'm not impressed by White Castle's posts after my vote (he seems not to have put any thought into his vote despite the stage of the game) so I'm comfortable leaving my vote where it is. Of the more popular wagons I think that I would probably vote for Empking's Alt or zwetschenwasser before dejkha based on my recollection of what I've read but I'll look through things carefully this afternoon and make sure that accurately represents my current views. I'll be interested in what dejkha has to say in his upcoming post.

I'd also be comfortable voting for quite a few of our quieter members this game. I wouldn't be that shocked if it turned out that the most vocal members of the game were town and that the scum are laying low and letting the town tear itself apart with with lots of largely useless noise. I'm not going to push a lynch for anyone who's been quiet so far but I do think that there is enough going on that people should be able to chime in with more thoughts by now.

Questions for everyone:
1. Do you feel safe having someone at L-6?
2. Is it dangerous to add more even if you aren't ready to lynch?
3. Or are they not feeling enough pressure to care they're at L-6?

1. I'm comfortable with people being at L-6 at this point. I'm also comfortable with dejkha being at L-4 (which I think that he is now.)
2. If we as a group are ready to lynch even if I'm not then so be it. Worst case scenario at this point would be that we get information about who quickly jumped on a mislynch wagon at the end.
3. I think that L-6 probably wasn't that much in the way of pressure but L-4 seems to be enough to get a pressure based reaction.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

And I'm back. I've done a terrible job keeping up with the site in general recently and this game in particular. My apologies again for that.

I did a reread of Dejkha and it seems that I agree with my recollection. My take on Dejkha is that he got attacked early for difference in strategy (the FoS bit) and defended himself poorly. He has continued to make strategy assessments that I don't agree with and express them poorly but I'm much more inclined to call them mistakes or disagreements than I am to find them scummy at this time. I will not be voting for Dejkha at this time.

Having said that, White Castle is right that my vote for him isn't doing anything useful right now. He seems to have taken something of a director's role on since he started posting more. I'm not seeing that much in terms of his own thoughts (outside of his post 4) and he does seem to have gone with the easy wagon though he certainly isn't pushing it the way that others are.

unvote

Vote: zwetschenwasser

zwetschenwasser on the other hand spent a fair amount of time arguing against voting for Dejkha and for empking's alt. The change in opinion to a vote for Dejkha and calling for the hammer seems more abrupt than I prefer. I'm seeing a lot of posts from zwetschenwasser but not all that much content.

orangepenguin's vote is interesting for it's timing, for the lack of stated reasons he finds Dejkha scummy and in that he seems to say that Dejkha's scum hunting has been good.

hohum does seem to have been eager to get someone lynched when he got here without much concern for who of the popular parties it was. He then refined it to Dejkha or zwetschenwasser saying that they were the ones dropping more scum tells and went with Dejkha as it was the more popular wagon. I don't have a problem with that on the whole as it does behoove us to get some pressure going and I don't begrudge the scummy read others are getting on Dejkha. What I don't like is how he follows that decision by taking quotes out of context and then resorting to quibbling about the meaning of the words peopel are using. In general the push for lynching Dejkha has been much stronger than I would have expected given what he was saying before he decided Dejkha was the wagon he wanted to be a part of.

empking's alt does seem to have largely faided into the background now that the pressure is squarely on Dejka. I don't find that this makes him look more helpful than he had previously.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Rather than address people's concerns about him, he'd rather sit here and argue with everyone in an attempt to completely derail the town. He argues with everyone. Seriously, there's been at least 3 full page arguments between Dejka and other people that I can see in this thread so far. This style of play is scummy and completely harmful to the town.

I feel completely comfortable after watching him post for nearly 10+ pages, and reading through his 20-page posting history before I replaced in with lynching him today.

Yeah, I've seen the exchanges. The thing is that I don't think that he's the one consistently initiating them. He has been put under pressure multiple times and is defending himself in somewhat clumsy ways but I see him reacting to what people are saying about him more than seeking the arguments in the first place. As I don't think that it's scummy to defend yourself I find it irritating to read but not something that I find overly scummy when I look at it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ouch, a difficult night. No ideas yet need to reread game, but from memory I don't see too many reads from those kills.

That was posted awfully soon after the day started. Why do you talk about "these kills" when only one person was killed during the night? Did you even read what the results of the night were before posting? You certainly imply that you did as you say that you don't have reads.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Who found WC interesting yesterday? Was someone mildly rolefishing as to WC's alignment? Who did you notice paid attention to WC's actions? These questions are for everybody.

I don't know that I noticed anyone other than myself (and Dejkha) playing particular attention to White Castle once we were out of random voting. Jahudo, Kmd4390 and Magua did mention him in passing after his vote for Dejkha. Towards the end of the day various people did answer questions he asked or respond to things that he said but no one talked about him that I saw.

Nah I also meant the lynch. I need to read through the game as I havent noticed anything about WHITE CASTLE, or why anyone would kill him, but then thats WIFOM. When I am scum, I randomly kill for no tells.

And the whole DEJKHA lynch is going to be a difficult one to get reads from. He made himself seem so scummy to many people (not so much myself til the end) that Im not sure where to begin.

It seems odd to include yesterday's lynch as a kill that you weren't sure what to make up and would have to re-read about given that it happen 3 days ago in RL and wasn't the least bit surprising when it did happen. As for killing randomly as scum I don't see how that's particularly relevant.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Emp was acting like a retard in my eyes, and believe me, ill know one when i see one. Zwet was on the line of retard and scummy, which is a more likely lead. He had been making crappy arguements and in general acting scummy.

So is this the case you could write down as your reason that made zwetschenwasser worth voting for and you weren't able to come up with something as compelling for Dejkha but did find him scummy? Or were there more details for your case on zwetschenwasser?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

vote: Wall-E

Right away, he attacks hohum, just based on "fruitless night kill discussion", and then keeps on pushing. It's not something that would convince me 100%, and I think Wall-E is pretty quick to jump on him, following up his vote in the previous day.

I also don't like Wall-E's persistent eagerness to hammer yesterday, despite the scummy-ness of dedjka. He could've just voted if he thought ded was scum, but nope, he HAD to be the hammer.I just found that odd, with dedjak flipping town and everything.

I think you mean Kieraen rather than hohum here, right? And you seem to be implying (as hohum did initially and then retracted) that voting quickly today is a bad thing. With 10 to lynch Wall-E's vote put Kieraen at L-9. I have trouble being bothered by that especially when I share Wall-E's general dislike of Kieraen's reactions out of the gate today.

As for the hammer yesterday, I wouldn't have done it (I explicitly passed on the chance to as I thought Dejkha was more likely to be town) but it was pretty clear that someone was going to hammer. Dejkha seemed to be very good at talking himself into a lynch especially towards the end of yesterday. Wall-E might have gone about the hammer and his desire to do it in a slightly odd way but I don't see it as that troubling.

Actually, I've had a night to sleep on it and I do think that Kieraen's start to today coupled with his last minute interactions with Dejkha yesterday are enough for me to vote for him for now.

Vote: Kieraen

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@zorblag: I didnt have a case on dej, other than a gut feeling. On Zwet, i do remember spotting something that made him look scummy, beyond a gut feeling. At the time, it was the case i liked the most.

You said today that you had looked back and found what it was that you looked back and found what it was that made you vote for zwetschenwasser:

If you don't remember it, shouldn't you go back to it and see if the same reasoning still applies?

Hmmm... I should...


I will! =D

Alright, i checked. Yes, it does. In my opinion anyway =P

Could you share that with us as I assume that it's at least part of the reason that you're voting for zwetschenwasser now?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

KMD is using Dejkha's logic, but he knows he's not going to be lynched for it because of yesterday. Scum.

Let's see if I can identify the arguments that you're comparing here. I believe that Dejkha's went like this (correct me if you've got a different one in mind).

Premise: With multiple scum teams in the game we can assume that scum will scumhunt rather than just obfuscate this game and attempt to kill the other scum team during the night.

Conclusion: It's just as good to kill unhelpful townies rather than scum (possibly better) as we don't lose any scum hunting power during the days and we're more likely to get cross kills during the night anyhow.

Kmd4390's argument looked something like this:

Premise: With multiple scum teams in the game we can assume that scum will scumhunt rather than just obfuscate this game.

Conclusion: Bad cases this game aren't a reliable scum tell as the scum will be trying to find the other scum team to get them lynched.

Those premises are essentially the same (though I don't think that Kmd4390 needs one as powerful as Dejkha did to come to his conclusions so I haven't made them identical) but the conclusions are very different. Djekha was arguing that it's find to lynch townies where Kmd4390 is arguing that just because someone makes a strong case doesn't mean that they're more likely to be town than they would otherwise. Calling that the same logic seems a huge stretch to me.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Does that boost my case against him? Cause i REALLY dont like what zwet just did. REALLY dislike. Alot. Alot alot.

You know who can answer that question for you? You can. You know who can't answer it? The rest of us. You don't need someone else's permission to decide that a players actions are scummy enough to warrant a vote.

I don't think that your system of needing evidence to be willing to cast a vote is particularly feasible. I'm not even sure what your criteria for evidence would be the first couple days of a game this size. Further, I know that I consider unwillingness to cast a vote to be at least as suspicious as a vote that follows your gut feelings. Others might have different opinions but I want people to take stances as that gives more information down the road. Votes are something that we can keep track of and look at later; when someone isn't making them I have less to look at and I'm more likely to attribute that to scum than town.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

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Woah, woah, don. The scum groups are fighting each-other, and killing each-other off is MORE appealing than killing townies.

Your logic is deeply flawed.

also, this punches holes in the case on Kieraen. and is why i didn't come out voting them in the first place.

What is it you think the case on Kieraen is that there being two scum groups who want to kill each other punches holes in?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

KMD is using Dejkha's logic, but he knows he's not going to be lynched for it because of yesterday. Scum.

Unvote; Vote: KMD

Forgot. Sorry.

Excellent.

Unvote

Wow, Brock. I test a player to see if he can defend himself logically and not flailingly and you call me scum.

FoS:Brocktree

I made a mistake, and Brock is voting me. Same thing with don. It's a case by case situation.

OK, help me out here. Are you saying that your objection to Kmd4390 was a test to see if he'd react in a logical manner or are you saying it was a mistake to vote him? I don't think that you can have it both ways and yet you seem to be claiming both.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Well, my vote for Kieraen isn't doing much of anything and I don't have anything beyond the late day interactions with Dejkha and his posting at the start to today which haven't been compelling so I'll go ahead and

unvote

.

Mod, I apologize for not being around but if you care, the prod you said you were giving me never showed up. I'm here now so it doesn't matter so much but I received no PMs from you.

Today largely seems to be a continuation of yesterday. The thread is dominated by people throwing around irritation at each other. This continues to focus the attention on Empking's Alt, Hohum and Zwetschenwasser (based on what I've seen; other's opinions might vary some) because they're largely the ones that are posting. I don't know that I've seen any sort of planning at all going on by anyone (and I'm not helping on that front myself) but I wonder if it might be useful to try to take advantage of the setup and get some logic going for future days.

We've got a scum team that can avoid the protection roles and one that can avoid the information roles. I don't know how we can get that much done with the ninja as we won't have any useful information to get about them but there's some chance that our information gathering roles have come up with something. I'm inclined to think that the ninja team would be more interested in trying to take out the docs and roleblockers or the other scum team before the information roles so I wonder what people might think about having the trackers and watchers claim that they are information gatherers? This would potentially give any docs a good target to protect for the night and if we have more than three make the claim then we can focus much more on a few individuals for today (which given our complete lack of focus might be helpful.) It would also stop any scum from being able to make fake information gathering role claims in the future.

To be honest I think that this game probably favors the town with the numbers that we've got. I suspect that this partial claim will provide useful information without too much of a penalty and it would give us something much more helpful than what we're doing now. It's kind of a follow the cop strategy which isn't particularly fun but I think that it could easily be in our interest to try it given the situation.

I'm not wedded to the idea but I'll throw it out there now to see what people think. Even if it sounds like a good idea there should not be any claims until we've heard opinions (doing it half way would be much worse than not doing it at all I suspect.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Remember that the hitman can bypass the doc, so we're pretty much giving the mafia a hitlist by having the info roles claim.

Ah, yes. I hadn't thought that bit through. On the other hand, it would give the watcher (or watchers) good targets to watch (only the hitman should target any of those who claim) and if any tracker tracked someone to those who had claimed they could be fairly sure that it was scum. It would also give the role blocker (should we still have one) a list of three people not to target.

On the whole I probably still think that a claim of some sort is likely to be more useful than not now that we've had a night of actions but if people oppose it that's fine.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Actually, now that I think about it a little more I think I'll advocate a mass claim now. There are 18 players in the game of which 5 are town power roles and 4 are scum. If no scum fake claim then we're picking from 9 today and 4 of those 9 are scum which is much better than trying to hit 1 of 18. If there is a fake claim then they'll have to claim either a protection or investigation role so we can use that to figure out which of those groups to decide who to kill which will again give us better numbers to work with.


Assuming there were no false claims (and to a large degree, even if there were) the role blockers and trackers could then target those who claimed town tonight and not have to worry about getting a town power role by accident while the docs could protect the protectors and the watchers could watch the information roles. It's true that the scum could try to kill the group which they're immune to but if they do that they're hurting the town and helping the other scum group so they're much less likely to be motivated to do that when they've got a reduced pool of suspects for the other scum. If they do try to go after the town power roles that can hurt them then they're much more likely to be blocked or watched.

Clearly no one should do any claiming at all till we discuss it but if this was a mountainous game I'd think that the town had the advantage and this just seems to add to that. Any thoughts?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

f no scum fake claim then we're picking from 9 today and 4 of those 9 are scum which is much better than trying to hit 1 of 18.

I don't know how I got the number 9 there. It would clearly be 13. Sorry about that if it caused any confusion. If we mass claim and there are no fake claims then it's 4 out of 13 remaining who are scum. Still much improved odds but not nearly as good as 4 of 9.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Light-kun, what don't you like about the mass claim idea? Is there something that works against the town if we do it now? As I've said it seems to me that it will help our chances but I might be missing something.

don_johnson, why the change in attitude about claims between your last two posts?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Kmd4390 and Kieraen, same question as Light-kun got. Why no mass claim now? What am I missing as far as negatives that overwhelm the following positives:

1. Forces the scum to choose how they're going to try to hid now rather than letting them wait to make an opportunistic decision down the line.

2. Divides who we have to consider for a lynch into 3 classes (protection, information, vanilla) of which we get to lynch someone from the class that is least likely to yield a mislynch.

3. It should cut down on power roles interfering with each other (or at least give them a way to know their chances of interfering depending on how the scum claim.) Right now we'll have 5 power role actions to 2 scum actions; helping our power roles narrow down who the legitimate targets are should help them.

If I thought there was someone who was a clear lynch as likely scum now then I'd definitely say we should hold off on the claim and lynch them today. I don't see that yet so here's my suggestion for a tool to help us par down our choices to something easier to analyze for now. Something else to consider would be that if we wait till tomorrow (as several have suggested) then we're giving the scum a chance to talk to their partners tonight with this in mind and come up with a more coordinated plan. I'm hoping that they haven't bothered doing that yet and so if we mass claim today we might catch them flat footed. I grant that the two scum teams can't coordinate with each other even if we wait till a later day but even eliminating one step of coordination from their claims might help.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

I appreciate the fact that people don't want to add to the vulnerability of our power roles here but I really think that most of those who are saying no to a mass claim are doing so as a gut reaction rather than thinking through the situation fully to see if it will be beneficial now. As it's not necessary for a win I won't push it beyond this post unless it gets more support but I do think that it will increase our chances of winning.

I should clarify what I want slightly as well. I actually want people to claim one of three things: Protection (by the docs and roleblockers), Investigation (by the trackers and watchers) or vanilla. Keeping the offensive and defensive roles in those categories to the role holders gives them more protection (I'll go over why in a bit) and still fulfills the main purpose of the claim which is to force the scum to decide how they're going to claim now rather than letting them wait till they have to and choosing the most opportune claim based on extra information that they'll have then which they don't have now.

It also might be worth reminding everyone that the purpose of town power roles is not to let them get their powers off but rather to increase the town's chances of winning the game. We should not have any problems with trading power roles for scum even if it means that the power roles haven't contributed anything directly via their night action. In this game we've got an unusual setup (and one that was designed with one more scum on each team which makes a difference). The types of power roles and the scum immunity to them nicely break the town into the three groups that I've mentioned. The scum won't know during the claim process whether claims being made are by the actual power roles or the other scum team.

In the end, if we have two or more scum trying to pass themselves off as either protection or information roles then we've got half of the scum in one of those groups already and it will clearly be a good place to look for our lynch. If no scum decide to claim one particular group we've essentially got confirmed town players for that group and we don't have to focus on them at all. If just one scum claims from a power group then at the very least the scum team that doesn't have that claimant will know that they're there; helping the scum figure out who the other scum team is increases the chances of a cross kill.

As far as claiming groups giving the scum more obvious targets goes (a complaint that several people have raised) I won't deny that we're giving them more information than they already have. On the other hand, we're giving the watchers and docs a good group of people to consider using their night actions on. Watchers in particular can see if people from outside the information group target anyone in it; if that person dies then the one targeting has a really good chance of being scum as the watchers can target scum who might be hiding in the group without worrying about protecting them. Further, the scum who have much more incentive to kill power roles from a particular group are the ones who are in the most danger from that group. The hitman team would like to take out the information power roles but with watchers knowing who makes a good target it becomes much more dangerous to do this. The ninja team would like to take out the protection team but the docs in the team know who the likely targets from that end are and can more easily block them. We lose much of that advantage with a full claim which is why I'm only advocating the group claim.

If the scum decide to kill the power roles that they have immunity to (well, half immunity) they're giving the other scum team an advantage and taking out something much closer to just a normal townie. Perhaps they'll decide to do that anyhow but it seems foolish to me for someone to take out the enemy of ones more dangerous enemy.

It's the particulars of this game which makes the claim this early useful. We've got a fairly small scum contingent, two scum teams trying to work against each other and two groups of power roles that the different scum teams have different reactions to. Normally claiming now would be a bad idea as people have said. In this case, the group claim takes advantage of the features of the game that we're working with. I do hope that people will stop and think this through before rejecting it. Having said that, if this post didn't sway people then I won't waste our time pushing something that doesn't have a chance of getting consensus.

@Kmd4390: I still don't like Kieraen for the reasons I've given. Beyond that I think that we've got way too much noise; I suppose my next choice would be Empking's Alt as his play has done as much any anyone's to contribute to that in my opinion. An example of this would be his last question (to ThAdmiral for some reason) of who suggested the MC (clearly myself) indicates that he's posting without reading the thread which doesn't help the situation at all.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

PRO:
- unlikely that scum will fake claim since we know how many PR’s we have.

I'm not actually making any assumptions about whether scum would claim or not; I don't want to go into details beyond what I've already said to make their choice easier but I will say that I think we gain useful information regardless of whether they fake claim or not (and if they fake claim the quality and usefulness of the information is greater than the detrimental effect of having a more confused situation due to a fake claim.)

To give more input on who I feel is guilty right now (as my last post just had it tacked on at the end because it was a question someone had asked me and I try to answer those) I will say that it's much harder to come up with opinions that I'm comfortable with given the variety of levels of participation. It's hard to compare what I think of a player like animorpherv1, killa seven or magisterrain with what I think of Empking's Alt or zwetschenwasser. As I said last post there are still aspects of Kierean's play that trouble me. I'd add agreeing with me to that list (except that I think my claim idea is a good one and so more people should be agreeing with it) as it continues a minor pattern of buddying with me that he started towards the end of day one which I'm slightly uncomfortable with. Hohum also has some play that I've been uncomfortable with (which I'd have to go back and find specifics on.)

Other than that my main suspicions would be the overly active but not that useful or the completely inactive as top choices for potential scum. I don't see a good reason to rule anyone in particular out and that list is too unwieldy at this time (which again, is why I'm advocating the claim; it lets us cut way down on the people we have to focus on.)

Mod: Could we see about replacing animorpherv1 and magisterrain if they haven't picked up their prods?

killa seven, any thoughts since replacing in other than your reaction to hohum and an initial dislike of the claiming?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

When I brought up the idea I called it a mass claim. I didn't make it at all clear that I still had the groups in mind (from my first, more limited claim suggestion) when I first called for everyone to claim. I kept calling it a mass claim after others starting calling it a group claim though I'll grant that the term group claim is better and I'll try to use that term now.

The confusion here is caused in large part by my not being clear about my intent from the start. I hope that my intent is clear now and I'd much rather people not get hung up on the terms I used along the way and instead take a look at the proposal and it's merits.

I do think that I explicitly called for a mass claim when I said:

Actually, now that I think about it a little more I think I'll advocate a mass claim now.

Nowhere in that post did I explicitly say that I still had the group idea in mind so I think that despite my intentions and the fact that I did talk about the three groups I had in mind I did for all practical purposes call for a simple mass claim in post 1057.

If you're trying to imply that you interpreted what I meant with my claim suggestion the first time then why would you single out ThAdmiral in particular to ask who brought up the mass claim? Nearly everyone who responded had called it a mass claim along the way.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Hmm, perhaps I did coin the term group claim without noticing it at the end of post 1088.

In any case,

I don't think this tangent is relevant to the prevailing discussion.

I largely agree there. On the other hand, Empking's Alt was responding to a specific charge I made against him which is completely legitimate. I don't plan on pushing it at all right now but he deserves to have a chance to defend himself when attacks are made. I don't want to dwell on it and I don't plan to get into a lengthy exchange about it at this time but it I don't mind what he's done thus far. I do clearly think that sharing his thoughts on the group claim idea would be of more interest right now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

We should at least have waited until the deadline that Magua gave with his last post before starting the claims so that people like Wall-E and Empking's Alt could argue their cases for not going with the group claim. I think we're making the right decision but it works when we've got people agreeing that it's a good idea rather than being forced into it and having more motivation to lie and screw the whole system up.

Having said that my group is

Investigation

. I am a tracker or a watcher but I'm giving no other information at this time. Other trackers and watchers should be doing the same. Docs and Roleblockers should be claiming protection as their group.

Do not claim individual roles at this time. If you're at all unclear how this works do ask for clarification before claiming but I hope it makes sense to everyone.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Two things here. First, we're doing the group claim so that we can get information about what votes make more sense. Please hold off on voting until after we've got that information. Second, Wall-E is clearly saying that he doesn't think that the town is pushing this, hence his lack of ability to believe it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The claims we've got so far (please correct any mistakes I've made):

Vanilla (8): don_johnson, Empking's Alt, hohum, Jahudo, Kieraen, Kmd4390, orangepenguin, Wall-E

Investigation (1): Zorblag

Protection (0):

Unclaimed (9): animorpherv1, Brocktree, Caboose, killa nine, Light-kun, magisterrain, Magua, ThAdmiral, zwetschenwasser

I thought it would be clear that once we've started a group claim (and especially once we've had almost a third of the players participate) it is much worse to stop the claim in the middle and lynch scum than it is to finish the claim and lynch the scum after that. If we stop before all the claims are in then we've given the scum teams information about everyone who has claimed which helps them but we haven't given the power roles the information they need to make good decisions. Even if we had definite scum now we should finish the claim before lynching them. Further, the more discussion that occurs mid claim the more we're giving the scum to help them decide if they want to fake claim and how they want to do it.

There was a reason that I said:

Even if it sounds like a good idea there should not be any claims until we've heard opinions (doing it half way would be much worse than not doing it at all I suspect.)

and

Clearly no one should do any claiming at all till we discuss it ...

The discussion was important up until the claim started. I certainly didn't push for the claim to start when it did but once it started getting through the claim while giving the scum as little to work with became more important.

As such, I'll be happy to talk to don_johnson about the Wall-E issue once the claim is done; if he wants to vote for me for it now then I'll live with that. What I don't want is extra discussion about suspicion and more votes during the claim.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

so yes. my vote is serious.

He did answer. And can we please hold off on this until we've had all the claims. I meant what I said about discussion now giving the scum more information about whether and how to claim while the claim was in progress. If people are active then we should be done with the claim stage soon and can get back to attacks on each other. There are just 6 claims left to go. The information will still be there.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Of those that haven't claimed yet I still hope that Brocktree will post shortly. His last post on the site was in this game and he seemed to indicate that he was busy with work; perhaps he will have a chance to chime in over the weekend. As for animorpherv1 and magisterrain, at this point I feel that they should most likely be replaced as soon as possible. It's been over three weeks since either posted in the game which is getting to be on the ridiculous side of things.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The last three claims should help narrow things down more. An incomplete claim doesn't provide nearly the information that a complete claim will. Beyond that I'll hold off on other observations until we hear from the others (or the status of replacements.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

It's been a busy week so I haven't had a chance to check in.

I'm fine with Dejkha replacing back in. I'd much rather than him than someone who hasn't posted in the last month. Getting another in addition would be lovely as well.

Brocktree, glad to see that you're back. It's already been said but we are not doing a true role claim or full mass claim right now. What everyone but you, animorpherv1 and magisterrain has done is a group claim. You want to claim one of vanilla, investigation or protection but not give any information past that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

We are being truthful with our claims be we are not claiming specific roles, just the type of role. Thus it's not a true role claim (or full role claim if you prefer). In any case if you're a vanilla townie then you've done what we want you to with your claim, thank you. That now leaves just animorpherv1 and magisterrain both of whom I hope will be replaced shortly.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

I'm stopping in to let everyone know that I am still here and following. I did unvote back when I first started about claiming and it seems that it didn't get noticed as I've been listed as voting for Kieraen the last two vote counts when I shouldn't have been. Having said that, I am going to

Vote: Kieraen

again now. This isn't for the townie terminology. I am willing to accept that this is consistent with his meta. It' for a couple other things that he's said which I'll elaborate on once the claim is done.

For those who don't like that people are holding off on things at this point until the claim is finished I can vaguely see where you're coming from but it's really not that unreasonable to expect the players in the game to participate. The replacement process is taking much longer than I'd like but the last couple claims are as important as any (if not more important) in terms of the information that we'll be working with when the claim is done.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Welcome back Blakadder. Thanks for getting to those replacements.

Welcome back Dejkha. We're doing a group claim and your role is one of the two left to claim (the other being animorpherv1 who has been inactive since we started the claim process.) We're claiming one of Vanilla, Investigation or Protection with no additional information being given. Trackers and Watchers claim Investigation, Docs and Roleblockers claim Protection.

Everyone else, the reasons that are being given for a Hohum lynch seem pretty light right now. I can live with a Hohum lynch if that's the way we want to go collectively but I really don't want it to happen until the claim is done and if it does I'd like it to see stronger arguments for it from those who vote for him.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

I would rather have waited to get animorpherv1 replaced before ending the day but so be it. My recommendation to the power roles is as follows:

The protection roles should protect each other if they're docs. If one of them is a role blocker then that person should (fairly obviously) block someone who made a vanilla claim.

The investigation roles are a bit trickier but I think the trackers should track those who claimed vanilla and the watchers should watch members of the investigation group. We do have every reason to believe that animorpherv1 is in this group so I'm assuming that the mod will make sure to finish the replacement process before the night ends (I would have assumed that anyhow given how long animorpherv1 has been gone.)

@Light-kun and animorpherv1's replacement:

Light-kun, if you want to pick an order of animorpherv1 watches Light-kun, Light-kun watches Zorblag, Zorblag watches animorpherv1 (ALZ) or animorpherv1 watches Zorblag, Zorblag watches Light-kun, Light-kun watches animorpherv1 (AZL) for potential watching I'm fine with that. It'll avoid redundant watching (trackers in that case would track as they normally would; we know we don't get full coverage no matter how we do this.) If you don't pick one of the orders before twilight ends we'll all just use our judgement.

The reasons that I revoted for Kieraen during the claim process that I said I would explain after the claim was done are as follows:

Kieraen was one of the first to agree that the claim was a good idea but had these things to say towards the end of the claim process (when we knew that there was still at least one power role unclaimed but it wasn't clear who would make the claim.)

I also feel that we need to hurry the game along. Yes we are day twqo but I think we should try and move ontop day three now as I can't see any new info coming along.

I think we should auto lynch the people who havn't claimed, but for no now move on, with discussion.

Both of those are terrible things for the town to do when one of the small set of players who hasn't claimed yet is probably a power role. We've got much better options for the lynch in the vanilla claims that shouldn't waste one of our lynches in a way that's likely to hit a power role. Further, getting to at least the position we're at now (one claim to go with one investigation power role not claimed) gives the investigation roles the information they need to make the claim worthwhile going into the night. If we had ended the day before Dejkha's claim Light-kun and I would have had worse information to work with so far as how to use our night actions. Calling for a policy lynch of animorpherv1 at this time is equally terrible (which Dejkha seems to proposing for some point in the future).

In Kieraen's defense he has said several times that a vanilla lynch is the way to go today in addition to the quotes I gave above but I find those coupled with what I cited towards the start of today as reasons not to like Kieraen's play.

-Zorblag

[Zorblag]

Light-kun, I'll take your not commenting on the watch order to mean that you prefer that we use our judgment.

I'm hoping that Blakadder will get on and end twilight soon as he's said that he'll be V/LA from Tuesday through Friday while he's in New York over spring break on the V/LA thread.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Thanks farside22.

For anyone replacing in for animorpherv1, we expect at this point that you're either a tracker or a watcher. The other claimed investigation roles are Light-kun and Zorblag. The plan is to have the watchers watch people in that group to catch attempts to kill power roles and the trackers to track anyone other than those two and killa seven and zwetschenwasser (who should be our protection roles) as that should be where the scum are.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ah well, I had hoped this game would still go but so be it. I can share now that I tracked White Castle night one. I was hoping that I'd be able to use the fact that he didn't target anyone for his roleblock to figure something out later on but it didn't seem that likely to come up. It would also have been particularly interesting to see what the scum teams did night two. Would any scum care to share what you would have done? I was tracking Wall-E which has some chance to have been the worst tracking I could have done in terms confusing the town if he was lying about being vanilla and was actually a watcher. Avoiding exactly that situation was one of the reasons I really wanted the group claim to get finished before we went to night two.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

This was waaaaaaayyyyyyyy unbalanced in favor of town.
There needed to be one more in each scum group and one less of each set of power roles.

I agree that it heavily favored town. To the point where it wasn't even safe to fake claim a power role and we could use the group claim to make it even worse for the two scum teams. If there had been one more ninja and one more hitman it would have been much more balanced even if there weren't any less power roles (and I don't think the claim would have been nearly as worth it then.) That was the original setup; it got changed because people didn't sign up fast enough.

We were going to kill Zwet or killa seven.

Really? Even though you knew that kill had at least a 50% chance of being blocked? That makes me feel even better about my group claim plan.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh