Mafia 86 - mafia.gif - Game Over!

[The Fonz]

Reading, will post as I go along.

[The Fonz]

DAY ONE

The first thing I note is Jebus' jokeclaim. I HATE things like this. It had better not be followed by a ten-page discussion of if it were obvious he was joking...

EA understands the point of random bandwagoning. Townie points.

Random stage is looooong.

CKD 69 is scummy. Cybele's vote is a reasonable point, unvoting in the random vote without anywhere to go doesn't help the town. Also misrepresents what happened in the invitational: that was hardly the main reason he was lynched.

Dislike 71 for the same reason. And 76. Jebus is asking for the randomness to stop, without providing any suggestions for what to replace it with.

Ku_F 81 is a good point. Townie brownies.

83- HATE HATE HATE! There is absolutely no reason for a town player to do that. No wonder he was lynched day one- town had no alternative there, that kind of act demands policy-lynching (well, scumhunt lynching, actually, since there are benefits to scum from doing it and none to town).

The point is its not an actually scummy thing that was attacked.

It's a mildly antitown thing, which is as good as you're going to get in the RVS.

massive's 89 does nothing to move the game forward.

Sorry. Frankly, large group discussion isn't my forte. .

Hmm, no guesses as to why this guy flaked.

OK: gotten to post 100, and only TSN has commented on the one, obviously scummy, thing that has been done in the game. Continuing random stage after concrete things have happened = bad. TSN gets TBs for cutting to the chase.

massive's second post also does nothing to advance the game. Will this become a theme?

armlx 107 is a good point. Cybele's vote did seem semi-serious, and that was fine. Backing off it smells bad.

113: Strongly disagree though, IT IS a valid reason to vote someone.

....Aaand EA spots the obvious content. And PT offers a shit defence.

118: Why does CKD not vote tajo, then?

125: What the eff? That does not look like a too scummy to be scum argument at all. Nonetheless, armlx appears unlikely to be a buddy.

Not participating in the random voting stage is scummy in my book.

I can see we're going to fall out.

<3 TSPN 134. A question that could lead to actual scumhunting.

161: Sierra's defence of his position on RVS is decent. He's wrong, of course. But seems genuine.

Sekinj goes for the 'treating similar things differently' scumtell, which is a good point. Of course, populartajo should have been policy-lynched by now. But whatever.

I can see where Tar's 165 is coming from, definitely.

2. My vanilla claim was because I was bored and I wanted to generate discussion. Null tell, IMO.

'To generate discussion' is not sufficient justification for doing something obviously town-harming.

It wasn't at all obvious skitzer wasn't vanilla here. Oh no. [/sarcasm]

190: Oh, dear God. The newbie queue is there for a reason.

I am strongly considering moving my vote to PT for momentum reasons, plus how much worse the townie claim looks every time I think about it.

I will look very carefully to see whether he actually does. Rethinking earlier 'prob not a partner' assertion.

194: ShadowGirl does one of my least favourite things: 'unvote because it was random.' Right, so now we're discussing non-random things, use your vote on one of them.

Also:

Unvote.

Since my vote on Seraphim was placed during the random vote stage and we are past that now.

He can be a newbie. He can also be newbie scum.

QFT. If he's town and playing scummy, then we should call him on it. We learn from our mistakes, and if we just let it slide he's never going to learn.


Anyway, I'm taking Tajo's 'vanilla claim' and Seraphim not wanting to participate in random voting as null tells.

These seem contradictory. Do you want to call Tajo on it, or treat it as a null tell?

196 is a WIFOM overdose, so he needs to die even more. Seriously, if the only reason scum wouldn't do something is because they'd get lynched, then it's a scumtell.

It's random stage, the claim will bring unecessary attention, and it's WIFOM.

Another of my least favourite things: defending something that has obvious benefits for scum by 'it's wifom.' Uh, no. THE DEFENCE is wifom.

OH GOD, NOT THE 'ARE LURKERS MORE LIKELY TO BE SCUM' ARGUMENT.

204 is the sign of more good thought processes from EA.

. Since your scumminess relies on the assumption that you and tajo are partners, you'll be partially cleared if tajo flips town.

This is a huge scumtell on the part of BlakAdder, put into context. Ties together a townie and a scum, supports the lynch of the townie and then claims that 'partially clears' the scum.

218 Empking spots this, and calls him on it.

And BlakAdder hedges so much, he might actually be a garden.

Now, the thing with the smiley. There are three possibilities:

1. ooba is an absurdly good scumhunter
2. He got lucky
3. This is a bus he didn't expect to take off.

I'm considering 3) as a serious candidate.

Tar's point about information instead of analysis in 228 would be a good one, if not followed by a post that fits that description like a glove.

234. He's still alive because...?

CKD's 241 is a good one, and Erratus' 245 where he FOSes CKD for it is really bizarre. Chainsawing? As in, defending by attacking the attacker? I don't see why that would be a scumtell. By that logic, it's a scumtell to attack anyone on a popular wagon, which is just untenable.

Haschel's entry (246) is VERY good. Pretty much precisely what i'd say in the situation.

Do not like BlakAdder's response to CKD... 'none of them have really done anything scummy' is not analysis.

I don't like how black and white Tar's 257 is... do you think this player is scum or not? That's not the question. The question scumhunters need to ask is 'how likely is this guy to be scum?'

IF YOU WANT ME TO CLAIM NOW AND AVOID THIS STUPID CONVERSATION JUST TELL ME.

I LITERALLY fell off my chair when I read this. Grrr, it's beating a dead horse, but still...


HATE 261. For the following reasons.

wow, been playing this game for over a year...never heard the term chainsawing..please define.

Chainsawing: Attacking a player (BlakAdder) in a manner that discourages their attack on a third player (populartajo).

This is a scumtell how? If players got lynched for this, then no-one would ever get caught opportunistically bandwagoning.

This section attempts to show that BA is wrong. Actually, it doesn't even do that; it only says that BA is wrong, but bear with me. Showing that he's wrong is fine, but it does dick-all to show that he's

scum

. Why, then, did CKD attack him for being wrong? Discrediting the Tajo attack is a pretty good guess.

Attacking someone over something that is not a scumtell, is a scumtell.

WHY THE HELL ARE PEOPLE ASKING FOR AN ALREADY CLAIMED PLAYER'S CLAIM? EITHER HE'S VANILLA, IN WHICH CASE IT SHOULDN'T HELP, OR HE CLAIMS SOMETHING ELSE, IN WHICH CASE LYNCH ALL LIARS.

272: Lynch all liars. Enough said. I really hope no-one counterclaims.

Electra jumps in to pile on a townie, with basically the only contribution of the day. She was scum? No shit. (Also, note another instance of scum using Person C).

When I wrote this:

Im bored.
Im vanilla.
Discuss.

Claiming vanilla this early is -usually- bad play if you're town, even if you were only joking (which I can't tell for sure).

FOS populartajo.

the reason I used the word "usually" is because I thought of one exception where it would not be bad play to claim vanilla: when you're a doctor. I find it very odd how nobody (except ShadowGirl) appears to be even considering the fact that Tajo is really a doctor.

It WOULD be bad play as doc. Precisely because no one will believe you if you ever have to claim doc. And it might still get you lynched.

Sekinj with the 20/20 hindsight is kinda disturbing.

[The Fonz]

TO END of P17

Hehe Stef and Ooba were both antitown. Score one for petty pointscoring as a scumtell.

The cult leader was killed night 1. Woot!!!

Likelihood of someone claiming this is congratulating the vig, when it clearly isn't, is pretty high. Let's see...

Incredibly quick wagon here, so I'm guessing BlakAdder claims power. Everyone's seeing the exact same thing I saw.

Sekinj... grr, why is it when I replace into a game most of the really obvious scumtells I see are committed by already-dead mafia? Oh, right, because the town's competent. <3

The attacks on CKD in general are bad... CKD gives the impression of being convinced PT was lying. If that's the case, why not hammer? And his point that those who were calling him out failed to unvote, when they had the opportunity, is a valid one.

An unrelated point: Does stef being in the japanese mafia imply two mafias?

This post feels greek to me, for some reason. As if he knows full well it does. Tar's reaction (thinking an SK more likely) is closer to what i'd expect from a town player.

BlakAdder's defence is bad, though he gets points for consistency, as if he genuinely doesn't realise why the 'partially clearing' thing was so obvscummy.

My definition of buddying is any act of scum working together during the day. This includes deflecting suspicion and distancing.

Your definition of buddying is WRONG.

Liking EA's pressuring of Cybele, claiming that vote was a joke is definitely a nonsequitur.

Cybele's 351 includes a non-defence, some buddying-up, and a person C vote. That definitely pings my scumdar.

BA vs Shadowgirl interaction: Shadowgirl is basically right here, and BA and armlx wrong: if you think a wagon's bad, it's incumbent on YOU to find somewhere else to go.

371: Honestly, I can't see whether BA's weird definition of 'cleared' makes him less scummy or not. You're still tying a scum to a townie, and trying to lynch the townie first.

Okay. skitzer and I have spent a lot of time together playing Mish Mash games, starting from when he ran a Nomic game. Now while I can't actually explain why it's funny, I can say it was never meant to be serious.

You made a joke, and you didn't know why it was funny?

Empking's 382 makes my head hurt.

Don't like EA's movement off of Cybele onto CKD. If merely questioning your Cybele vote is scummier than the reasons that you were on Cybele in the first place... then that makes you look less invested that you were appearing.

I profoundly dislike Sierra's 396. Simply because Tajo's action was obviously antitown, and a much better angle than a smiley. However: Given two scumgroups and a cult, and that we have three dead Jap mafia, it strikes me as unlikely there's more.

406: TSPN deflects from a dead town, to a living player. Note: If EA comes up scum, TSPN likely town.

410: EA makes a false dichotomy. "Plausible as town" and "more likely to come from scum" are not mutually exclusive.

@EA - it seems like you are saying that you arn't paying attention to anything but your case and your suspects?? dont' you think that is too tunnel visioned? shouldn't you be reading everything happening in the game if you expect to be able to catch scum?

Big alarm bells. Confirmed scum suggesting living player is too tunnelvisioned. Indicates connection between sekinj and EA's 'tunnel' targets- not CKD obv, so Cybele?

Like 420 (Sierra)- trying to produce new evidence on BA.

BA's 424 v. bad.

[The Fonz]

429: Good contradiction-based scumhunting by Ku_F.

Jebus' 434 doesn't advance the game at all.

Haha, Friend of Scum in 436.

You don't think quicklynching a claimed Doc is scummy?

Not when he's obviously lying. Lest we forget, he also claimed townie.

Unvote, Vote: Empking

As if the backtracking isn't enough, his stream of insults reminds me of Mini 617, where kuribo caught me like page 2 and I,

bereft of alternatives, RELEASED THE FUCKING FURY. Didn't work then, won't work now.

Heh, unleashing the fury is not a scumtell. (I pretty much only do it if someone is genuinely misrepresenting me). That

said, the lie was worth voting.

476: HEADDESK. Though actually a towntell on me. (If you wish to dispute that town are more likely to suggest another town

player is a jester, go ahead).

480: BA 'ICs' but doesn't really add anything.

I've said it once, I'll say it again: I strongly suggest you claim. I plan on voting you very soon,

because the lack of a claim suggests, to me, that you do not have a pro-town role.

OH, COME ON.

More obvscum posts from the confirmed scum. Reticence to claim is not a scumtell, precisely the opposite.

Well, awesome night for the town. Going to go back and reread the dead players. Also, I would believe the

Japanese Mafia is gone, but playstyle should not be altered either way. We'll see whether or not they're still alive

tonight.

Well, kinda should be: the Greeks are the obvious priority here.

@sekinj's 'bah' post - This means there'r more Yakuza. Probably one more left to wipe off the faction.

This is a good catch.

farside replaces in and spots the obvious.

skitzer's 575 raises a good point: Massive has been uberlurky, can't remember a single thing he's done.

And 581, amusingly, looks like a fairly good facsimile of a whiney scum post. You can't tell that the two players lynched were lynched because they were caught in lies? Seriously?


OTOH, 591 is good. If BA is Jap, he'll be the last one, and if he's not Jap, then most of the case against him goes away, because it's mainly associative tells. Apart from the bit at the bottom... please explain why it would benefit a scum to speculate that a townie might be Jeter?

That would not balance CKD. Too much night related variance.

Agreed... and if you have a cult, you can't really have 9 scum to 14 town. A cult needs townies to recruit. It is possible sekinj was just screwing with us, of course.

How would 14/4/4/1/1+(cult) give more variance than 16/3/3/1/1+(cult) ? It's the same amount of nightkills, right?

Fewer town. More scum. Fewer lynches, so town more dependent on night game in order to be balanced.

Re: 599, there is no particular reason to think 'assassinated' refers to the Japanese mafia.

Yeah, Hascow! Readable players are always good.

611: Such speculation ill-befits you, massive. Just a TERRIBLE argument, almost voteworthy alone.

so your versus of grandpa scum hunting is voting based on flavor?

QFT.

But isn't flavour not supposed to reveal information the players don't know?

Precisely.

691: Agreed.

NOTE:

SG has not done a dice vote in any other game on MS. I find that very interesting.

This IS interesting. In so far as people tend to always do it, or never do it.

713: Meh, even a good vote from massive comes with a crap reason attached.

I don't think the smiley was the reason that definitively made him scum.

I like the dice command. That's why I used it.

Then why is this the first time? And what makes you 'like' it?

732: This is a good defence of the above.

armlx's 743 gives me VERY good vibes. I mean, the original argument wasn't very good, but that feels like an impossible bar to set. (I also feel that crediting armlx with 'good scumhunting skills' may be stretching it. IIRC, he's good at sounding reasonable, but merely decent at scumhunting).

unvote, vote ShadowGirl

Her helpful vote counts pre-both-lynches coupled with her joy of the previous night's events are a desperate attempt to appear townie. I don't believe a townie needs to do that.

Voting for the next highest vote getter when you are in the suspicion spotlight = mafia to me.

vote massive

That's all you have to say?

It was a good point. He didn't need to write a wall of text explaining it. That was Rush' best post to date. Jumping from someone you've been attacking to someone who happens to be second to you in terms of wagon size is scummy. Minus points for arm.

Still I agree that gorckat deserves more attention. Just not because of the tracking/flavour argument, but because Sera was scummy as hell before he was replaced. In a game I played recently, one of the scum admitted to have asked for replacement when he got caught in a tight position, not because he really needed replacement but because he figured a replacement might be the only thing to save him from a lynch. It worked. Thanks to that game, I'm now a bit more wary of people replacing in for someone who was especially scummy.

Except that he wasn't that scummy, and certainly wasn't the next in line to lynch.

EA's 764 looks opportunistic. I really don't understand how the first real rush wagon springs up in response to his best post.

SG defends, rather than doing something about, her active lurking.

How many more times does Rush need to jump on a bandwagon without scumhunting and then intentionally lurk to avoid being questioned about it before we realize he's not just dead weight, he's dead scum weight?

This bothers me, since i'm just seeing 'dumb newbie.' Of course, hindsight is wonderful.

Remember this when I get lynched as townie.

GRRRRR, unnecessary townie claim.

Also, whiny scum-a-like.

<3 CKD 839.

Between the 3 of them, Massive is by far the worst lynch. Two of the people voting him are Rush and Skitzer, who are lynch-candidates themselves. Another is Gorkat. Do I need to say more?

Noticing this. Also, how skitzer has suddenly become a candidate after people ignoring him for several pages.


893:

FOS Farside22

for the obvious craplogic vote. He clearly meant 'killing groups' and you shouldn't be voting people over obvious typos.

Oh seriously, obviously I meant "all 4 killing groups." If you really think I'm intimating that there are 4 mafia groups, you are using blatant opportunism and have quickly risen in my "likely to also be scum" list.

This is a scum reaction.

Vote: massive

No, it is not, it's the obvious one.

898: BlakAdder still scummy as F***.

899: Llama's pick of Niv (me) even ignoring the obvious OMGUS reaction, is horrible. The claim that Seraph appears to have inside information is laughable. I'd love an explanation of why seraph is 'likely greek mafia' and not pulled out of your ass. But then, I think you're greek scum, as we'll come to soon.

Vote BlakAdder

Finals week so im a little busy. The Japanese mafia is still killing, therefore they arent all dead. I would much rather get rid of the end of the first faction today so we only have two anti-town groups left.

And this fits that hypothesis perfectly.

I wasn't keeping track of who might be in which mafia. I'm not picky at the moment.

This is hella scummy. Town needs to think what they're accusing people of being.

908: Let us see reactions to this one.

BlakAdder's claim, combined with Jebus', indicates that one or other HAS to be lying scum. EA may yet claim vig. We'll see.

Also, how can you be so sure that Jebus is not lying? And how did you come to the conclusion that there must be a Mafia Doctor if he is lying? I smell scum slip.

There is no reason for Jebus to be lying regardless of alignment. As SK or a Jap member he just nuked his chance at winning unless he picked a member from both other factions correctly. I brought up mafia doctor to show how over the top stupid calling Jebus lying scum is, since it is the only way that this is a good idea.

A mafia doctor would not affect anything. Those players ACTUALLY died, and Jebus is claiming to have seen the killers. Either he is truthful in both respects, or lying scum. Those are the only options.

My other accusation was that if I had claimed vig, you still would have said I was confirmed scum.
I'm not a vig, but I still know he's lying, because I'm a vanilla.

Not true- no-one would assume someone who'd NKed scum to be scum.

EA is not Jap. Could well be Greek.

927 makes sense.

934: Grrr. I need to think about whether to apply LAL here. Probably not, though what the hell, if BA was a different PR?

I'm not actually thinking EA is the vig. I think more likely SK.

SK is certainly possible, but that means there's a real vig to take him out.

I'm not actually thinking EA is the vig. I think more likely SK.

But he hasn't been counterclaimed. Though, I'm not sure the real vig would/should want to claim, anyway.

Vigs should never counterclaim. Just shoot the faker.

If EA is the SK, I would actually prefer a vig claim today, since it does eliminate one anti-town role in its entirety. This would mean only two anti-town kills to deal with per night. If the vig waits for the night to kill EA, there is still a shot going out from him.

This is horrendously antitown.

unvote
vote niv

Since niv is scum for sure. /quote]

You haven't provided anything like the case needed to make that statement. Scum.

The last page doesn't really add anything, except for: too many people are not reading the thread.

Although:

Niv is now at L-1 (three votes and his self vote), and I implore that no one hammer him until he's posted/claimed.

More 'looking helpful' from SG.

unvote

Sierra, sorry, but no dice. There are only three people voting me. One of whom at least I think is scum. The case on my role, as far as I can see, is lurking plus the Jester thing. The Jester thing obviously isn't a scumtell, and I'm invalidating any lurker case here and now by contributing lots. (Plus, you can't really make a case on my role for lurking which is distinct from the case on, say, Spring. Which is not to say that lurking is OK, but that lurkerlynching me seems stupid). That leaves you with basically nothing.

Vote: Llamafluff

Reasons, in chronological order:

1) Cybele's weirdness with regard to her random vote. YES, it is still a valid tell.
2) Being the one living player clearly tied to the dead greek mafiate: see above, regarding to Electra's behaviour re: EA tunnelling on Cybele.
3) Insistence on Jap mafia being the priority, even when Greeks could win overnight.
4) Trying to get a vig to out itself needlessly. (Indicates that EA is SK or genuine rather than Greek if Llama is scum).
5) Calling Niv (me) certain scum, without a single good argument for the proposition to his name.

[The Fonz]

713: Meh, even a good vote from massive comes with a crap reason attached.

What reason are you referring to?

This.

Her helpful vote counts pre-both-lynches coupled with her joy of the previous night's events are a desperate attempt to appear townie. I don't believe a townie needs to do that.

Some people are just helpful. That she isn't saying owt of substance is a far more pressing concern.

Vigs should never counterclaim. Just shoot the faker.

That sounds like the best plan but SK’s are sometimes NK immune right? Is that a varient that is not typical for large normal game roles?

Well, NK-immune is significantly less common in setups like this. Largely because there's something a bit unbalanced about a role which cannot commit associative tells, OR be killed at night. In any case, it's something to worry about if he's still alive and the mafia dead later.

The Jester thing obviously isn't a scumtell

I didn’t mine the Jester theory so much but I did have a problem with him trying to disown himself from the hammer by saying it’s Tar’s idea.[/quote]

He was disowning it, but in the sense of 'Well, I told you he looked like a Jester, don't blame me if he is.' He wasn't trying to avoid blame if Emp came up town; in fact, Seraphim explicitly denies the possibility:

If he isn't a jester, he's definitely scum.

[The Fonz]

3) Swing and a miss here. We have 11 alive, and I am making a 4-4-1-1 assumption for killing roles, or a 3-1-1-1 alive. If we eliminate one of the 1s, there are only three kills and the game cant end given that three greeks need four non-greek kills to win. Jap lynch eliminates today being a possible lylo.

You are correct that that is the case; you are incorrect in that the Greeks are still the priority. The chance of five kills all hitting different non-greeks is pretty small anyway; the 'can win overnight' point was merely to show that they are the strongest threat right now.

4) I dont want what I am thinking to be a wash here, and if EA is the vig what I am working on will take much longer to actually figure out, and possibly cause quite a bit of confusion. There is a good reason for me to want to know if EA is lying about being the vig, since there are a few people who are obviously not the SK already. It being another 1 faction, eliminating it would prevent lylo

Again, trying to argue for something that would lead to an SK (ie non-Greek) lynch.

5) I put some stuff up on Seph a while and will go through again later. There just seem to be multiple instances where he ended up with an idea about the setup of the game before it became part of the scene.

I've looked, and this is flatout untrue.

[The Fonz]

You are correct that that is the case; you are incorrect in that the Greeks are still the priority. The chance of five kills all hitting different non-greeks is pretty small anyway; the 'can win overnight' point was merely to show that they are the strongest threat right now.

They are the strongest threat at this point, while getting rid of an entire faction is slightly preferable since it does bring the ammount of NKs down, bringing down a faction to the point where they can not end the game (even on a low chance) is ideal.

Removing a Greek mafiate removes the chance of an overnight loss, too.

I have a bit of a personal priority to be hunting the SK, and have a really good reason for getting a counter to EA. Given that again a SK lynch (especially non-EA one) would not only present a WIFOM between jebus-EA as the modified doctor and only two anti-town threats, but also prevent one anti-town kill and eliminate any chance at the game ending.

I'm sure you do have a personal priority to lynch the SK; he isn't your scumbuddy. I'm not sure what you're getting at about this 'modified doctor wifom' thing- could you clarify?

I've looked, and this is flatout untrue.

Seph was the first to speculate about multiple factions, with just two kills at night.

This is, again, untrue. The first speculation as to the likelihood of a second scumgroup is this post:

An unrelated point: Does stef being in the japanese mafia imply two mafias?

TSPN was, of course, town. armlx, also town, agrees that this is the likely implication of stef being tagged as 'Japanese' mafia. Seraph's speculation in 326 is of an entirely similar type to that post, and CKD's 329 (where it is suggested that a vig is very likely, and an SK unlikely).

There was a cult and scum flip which again really doesnt sound like scum-scum-cult-sk threat to me. At this point in my read I expected scum-cult-sk-maybe vig.

And this, yet again, you've just pulled it out of your arse. He did not say scum-scum-cult-sk. He didn't mention an sk. What he said was along the lines of 'I think we have multiple scum families, and the cult leader might have died trying to recruit scum.' There's no inside information here AT ALL. The multiple scum families bit follows logically from Stef being tagged as Jap. The cult leader dying recruiting scum is also a perfectly plausible possibility (he doesn't seem to consider what happened to the other scumgroup's nightkill).

There was also the fact that Seph when hammering Emp, really sounded like he expected a town flip.

This is...drumroll... untrue. He said 'if he's not a jester, he's DEFINITELY (emphasis mine) scum.' Please explain how, in a million years, that can be translated as 'expecting a town flip.'

When he hammered, he first said that the lynch was Tar's idea, called Emp likely jester, secondly scum.

He said 'ok Tar, this is your idea,' sure. The obvious implication of this is not to blame Seph if Emp was, indeed, a jester. It's a 'don't say i didn't warn you' kind of thing.

This hammer just still leaves me floored. Seph hammered a player 1) Because of another player 'making' him 2) who he thought was a jester. It just feels like newbie scum being overly cautious of what is an easy lynch to me, and trying to shuffle the blame to another player a bit too blatantly given that he knew Emp wasnt scum (with him at least).

See the following newbie thought process:

1. Seph thinks Emp is scummy beyond belief.

2. Seph think Emp is soooooo scummy, he must be actively trying to get himself lynch. I mean, no-one's

that

scummy.

This is a function of Seph's inexperience; if he'd played with, say, ABR or Guardian before, he'd know full well that plenty of the time people are that scummy/abusive/whatever.

3. If he's trying to get himself lynched, then he must be a jester. He vocalizes this notion.

4. People jump down his throat for suggesting Jester, implying that he's making a 'too scummy to be scum' defence of Emp. (Note the incentives for various actions here: if Seph genuinely were scum, he'd know Emp isn't his buddy. That he's worried about being tied to Emp means he must think Emp is definitely not town; since if Seph is scum and believed Emp is town, the beneficial thing to do is to say this, and get credit for defending a townie. The implication here is that Seph is either town, or scum who genuinely thought Emp was a rival. But hang on... if he thinks he's rival scum, why does he raise the Jester point in the first place? It would be easy enough to support the wagon. The ONLY reasonable explanation here is that Seph is town).

5. Feeling browbeaten, Seph thinks 'oh, to hell with it.' Seph's convinced Emp's definitely not

town

; so it's not that big a loss anyway. So he hammers, with the disclaimer that he still thinks jester is a distinct possibility.

The fear of having Emp be opposing scum is likely what made him keep scum as second option. Remember Seph knew there were two families at this point.

Sorry, what? I'm not following here. He didn't know anything. He logically worked it out here. You're arguing from the perspective here of 'Seph is definitely scum' and everything he does then fits into your argument, even if it doesn't.

Later Seph brought back the "two families" arguement after the death of a Greek, but for the first time gives any reasoning for this train of thought. At this point though the reasoning was already public.

The reasoning was already 'public' before Seph ever speculated on the existence of a second scumgroup.

While this is primarily inside information thoughts that make Seph Greek (not Jap since Jap could not of known of duel families untill D3 broke), the actions regarding the lynch of Emp make him look very scummy.

Except that I've shown there was no inside information, so this is bunk. Jap 'could not have known of a second family?' Then HOW COME MULTIPLE TOWN PLAYERS CAME TO THIS EXACT CONCLUSION?

Gor on his own feels pretty scummy as well. He initally really doesnt commit to a whole lot, his first read comes as SG-scummish due to OMGUS reasons about his predicessor.

Ah, the OMGUS accusation. How I hate thee.

Later this changed to a massive vote for "willing to vote many people", which I disagree with as being suspicious of and sticking to three suspects isnt trying to lynch everyone.

Being willing to 'float in the wind' certainly is a scumtell.

Apart fromt that all the Gor did over his short stay was apoligize for Seph being scummy, and for not contributing too much. Him coming in with a very weak suspicion of SG and a vote against massive (who was a pusher of a Seph lynch with some decent reasons) is scummy in the suspicion category.

You just replaced scum who was on the way out here I am thinking. In your opinion though - What is the ideal scum group to lynch?

And you were applying the label of 'obvscum' to someone who wasn't there to fight back, on the basis of terrible/nonexistent reasoning. You thought you would be able to browbeat any replacement. Well, tough luck, sugar. You've been caught.

Oh and priority? Greek, obviously. You.

Also, note LF's clear double standard in expecting me to defend Seph, whilst saying of my suspicions of Cybele 'well, that's not me, I can't answer for it.'

Sierra: posting his hammer post, and saying 'Well, he did think he was next in line' doesn't add anything. It doesn't support your argument. Please address my argument: namely, that it is blatantly obvious that Seph is only distancing himself from the hammer IN THE SCENARIO WHERE EMP COMES UP JESTER.

[The Fonz]

Removing a Greek mafiate removes the chance of an overnight loss, too.

Which is why I am voting you at this point.

But a self-vote would be so much more effective. (In all seriousness, I'm not trying to convince YOU: you're scum. I'm trying to demonstrate that your allegations are ridiculous).

I'm sure you do have a personal priority to lynch the SK; he isn't your scumbuddy. I'm not sure what you're getting at about this 'modified doctor wifom' thing- could you clarify?

I do have a priority, that is all about that. The modified doctor is the reason I would prefer a Jap/SK lynch. We have EA who is our vig and Jebus who is our watcher. Jebus watches EA at nights, and scum can not kill him. If we eliminate one entire anti-town faction, that increases the likelyhood of only having Jebus be NKed, while still leaving the chance of EA getting double killed, and two scum caught. Whoever Jebus watches cant die before Jebus, modified doctor.

This is so dumb it makes my head hurt.

WHY does Jebus have to watch EA? Answer: he doesn't. Since we think EA is likely SK, we have no problem with him being killed; in fact, we expect our vig to do it.

Also, for those of you playing along at home with the 'Llamafluff obvscum contradiction counter':

1.

Removing a Greek mafiate removes the chance of an overnight loss, too.

Which is why I am voting you at this point.

The modified doctor is the reason I would prefer a Jap/SK lynch

He said 'if he's not a jester, he's DEFINITELY (emphasis mine) scum.' Please explain how, in a million years, that can be translated as 'expecting a town flip.'

When he hammered, he first said that the lynch was Tar's idea, called Emp likely jester, secondly scum.

Yes. This is what happened. It seems we are agreed on this. How does this answer the question?

He said 'ok Tar, this is your idea,' sure. The obvious implication of this is not to blame Seph if Emp was, indeed, a jester. It's a 'don't say i didn't warn you' kind of thing.

I just hate any "I warned you" type posts, since regardless of what they net, quite a bit of the blame is ready to be shifted. While when its a good lynch Seph would lose some credit, he still gets enough for a few points.

You just hate them. A-ha. And, again, it is scummy how? HE HAS STATED EXPLICITLY he doesn't see any chance of Emp = town. He is clearly not trying to deflect responsibility in the event that Emp is town.

He suggested Jester. He got told that was a really stupid, perhaps even scummy suggestion. He gives in, but with the caveat that he still feels a jester is a distinct possibility.

See the following newbie thought process:

And for countermeasures this one

1. Emp looks really scummy, is he Jap?

2. I wonder if he is jester?

3. Emp is an easy lynch, but I dont want to lose the game by taking the easy lynch and killing the jester.

4. Ok fine its worth the risk, but if we lose I blame Tar.

Yup, thank you, you have proven my point: this one doesn't make any sense. Specifically: phase three.

Ah, the OMGUS accusation. How I hate thee.

Did you read the reasoning behind his suspicion? It was due to the SG-Seph exchange.

*Sigh*

Go check out the MD discussion entitled 'OMGUS doesn't exist.' Started by me. Gorckat claimed to get a scummy vibe off SG's interactions with seph; if you want to try and make the case that you don't think a town player really would have gotten scum vibes there, be my guest. Calling it 'omgus' doesn't add anything, and is the kind of thing people throwing mud rather than genuinely scumhunting do.

Being willing to 'float in the wind' certainly is a scumtell.

Listing multiple suspects on the otherhand does NOT fall in the scumtell category. Look at massives eighth post, small cases on his top three. Not 'float in the wind'. Over the next couple

weeks

he voted for two of them, in fact by the time gor voted him, he had only voted for one. Not even close to 'float in the wind'.

Posts like this:

I could follow you on to armlx, CKD.

Seem to fit that description perfectly, in my eyes. He also lists things he 'finds suspicious' about three others. Then makes the above post. Then votes Seph, who wasn't one of those three- based on truly horrific reasoning. Then goes to SG.

Then of course, there's these - from consecutive posts no less-

Of course I'm willing to vote for anyone.

Please point out where I've indicated I'm willing to vote for anyone.

Difference here is all you have done apart from an analysis is post a case on me.

Well, apart from

analysis...

What do you expect me to do here? It seems like you want me to just drop everything all your predicessors did for no real reason

Nope. That's what you're doing. Again, expecting me to defend Gorckat/Seph, but unwilling to defend Cybele.

You on the otherhand are using things that I have done and calling me scum for it.

Actually, my case is more on Cybele than you. (Pretty much the only thing she did that looked like town scumhunting, she disavowed as soon as she was pressured for it). However, I'm certainly not going to ignore your scummy actions, nor neglect to defend my own and my predecessors' from craplogic attacks.

So we either both drop predicessor actions and I can only defend or belittle your analysis, or I can use the scummy stuff Seph and Gor did as active evidence.

Again, double standard. I'm happy enough to defend Seph: not only is he my predecessor, he wasn't actually that scummy, lurking aside. I'd just like people (not just you) to take a long hard look at Cybele.

[The Fonz]

WHY does Jebus have to watch EA? Answer: he doesn't. Since we think EA is likely SK, we have no problem with him being killed; in fact, we expect our vig to do it.

EA is not going to be the SK, doesnt fit.

You're not going to get away with merely asserting that.

I am thinking vig, small chance other scum. SK really doesnt fit the kill pattern though. Again you trying to increase the chance of our vig dying is scummy.

It is ALWAYS a bad idea to protect claimed vigs unless they are confirmed (for the same reason it's pretty much always a bad idea to lynch them the same day). It is your suggestion that is scummy.

The modified doctor is the reason I would prefer a Jap/SK lynch

I dont know who Jap/SK is, I thought BA was Jap for a while, but the reaction to the Jebus thing seemed genuine. SK is most likely one of Jahudo or Sierra after the people I have ruled out, but I really dont know which of them is the better persuit.[/quote]

This adds nothing.

I still think that Seph was thinking that Emp was either jester, jap or town at the end. What I dont see is town really fretting about a jester too much if he also saw Emp as scummy.

I HUGELY disagree. Town is FAR more likely than scum to worry about a jester there. If a player's really scummy, it's easy enough for scum to just join the wagon without any fanfare. No-one will really attack you over it, since everyone thinks the guy's really scummy. A townie, however, is going to worry about whether the guy really is scum. Hence your claimed scum thought process for Seph is ridiculous- because 'Oh, I'd better not lose the game by hammering a jester' doesn't make any sense.

Again, the reason the jester idea went through his head in the first place is

because he thought Emp was superhumanly scummy.

Scum would seem a little bit more afraid about the Jester possibility, especially Greek who got rid of the cult threat, and an opposing facton member.

This makes no sense. As i've said, town is more likely than scum to be afraid of the jester possibility.

ANYWHO. Gor called SG suspicious purely on the exchange between SG-Seph (who Gor just replaced). This suspicion was also never really elaborated on, just left at gut. Even if you disagree on the OMGUS vote line, you have to agree that this was a really shitty suspicion.

To do this, I would have to agree that gut suspicions are inherently invalid. I don't.

While I am not saying the vote on Seph was well reasoned, I do think its the correct vote so am probably giving it some deserved slack. The quote of "I am willing to vote for anyone" is being exaggerated a bit though. I dont think that it was everyone in the extent of every player, but everyone as in anyone he is suspicious of (SG, Seph, BA, EA, armlx). This is something for massive to clarify though.

Right. Someone attacks my predecessor with craplogic, and you say 'although it was badly reasoned, I think it's right so...' You're opening from the assumption that Seph is scum.

Nope. That's what you're doing. Again, expecting me to defend Gorckat/Seph, but unwilling to defend Cybele.

Well partially because I have zero clue HOW to defend 'lurky' since I am more of a prolific poster then anything else, especially when I am into a game.

The case on her is not lack of posts. It's her lack of

saying anything,

and ties to the only dead Greek.

Anyways for the backing off, I just think that Cybele was afraid of getting wagoned D1 for what really was a semi-serious vote and freaked out. He isnt a mafia player for the most part, still at the goon status while having almost 2200 onsite posts. I have seen lots of new players who are experiancing things for the first time just freak out under pressure as town.

Right, so YOUR newbie predecessor's actions are 'just newbie.'

I dont get the #2 point though. I dont see Cybele ever tunneling on anyone or Electra being suspicious of anyone really (except maybe KUF/Jahudo).

It's not that Cybele was tunneling. It was that EA was voting and attacking Cybele, and Electra asked him to 'stop tunneling.' This looks to me like a scum trying to get attention off of a buddy.

[The Fonz]

EA is not going to be the SK, doesnt fit. I am thinking vig, small chance other scum. SK really doesnt fit the kill pattern though.

@LlamaFluff, what happened to thinking EA was the SK? You said his kill pattern DID fit SK earlier:

Just for those of you still counting the obvious contradictions in LF's posts.

[The Fonz]

But, Jebus... if he didn't kill GW, then he knows you're lying, whether or not he's scum. So there isn't likely to be that much difference between genuine townie outrage and scum faking it. That's the point.

Also, what are your reasons to be voting me? The first time you mention this role is to say:

As for niv, I'm all for it.

unvote
Vote: niv

.

What do you make of these exchanges between LF and myself?

[The Fonz]

God. This makes me angry. Deep breath.

I'm not trying to misrepresent you at all. Merely trying to demonstrate that it wasn't unreasonable for my predecessor to suspect you. (Nor, I, for that matter. LF is the obvscum. But you're pretty high on the list). Also, I do not anywhere in 1000 'call out' Erratus Apathos for misrepresenting you.

I picked them out because I was looking through your past posts for examples of why it was reasonable to accuse you of 'floating in the wind' I came across those perfectly contradictory phrases, and found them funny. They are not and were not a crucial part of the argument. Hell, they weren't part of the argument at all.

[The Fonz]

Yes. And it took me about five minutes of trying to decipher your syntax to realise as such. Hence 'the point is...' ie, what farside was arguing was...

[The Fonz]

^^^^^^^^

So obvscum it isn't even funny.

[The Fonz]

Llama is at L-1.

No he isn't. He has three votes: Mine, massive's, Jebus', which makes L-3.

Still reading over the huge chunk of text in the past few pages.

Not being funny, but I read the ENTIRE game in one sitting. It does not take several days to read a few pages. Or you could post thoughts as you go along. This just looks to me like MafiaSSK-style, 'Reading, will post later' evasion.

I'd also like to note I'm going on vacation from the 4th to 10th.

How would we notice?

[The Fonz]

As for why we shouldn't look for the SK - The SK is always aligned as town until most, if not all, of the mafia is gone. Why? If the mafia hold a majority over town, then the SK is in the minority and thus has a bad chance of losing

This is true and not true. Most SK's are looking to win. They need to make sure about the number for mafia but they aren't acting as vig for the town. They will get rid of threats to themselves first.
Which is why I believe EA is SK and not vig as CKD seemed like town to me.

Well, some vigs are just dicks who shoot people for disagreeing with them.

But the important thing is WE DON'T NEED TO WASTE TIME WORRYING ABOUT THIS since he's dead sooner or later anyway.

@Shadowgirl: Your content level in this game is SSK-like.

[The Fonz]

This is the point where i note how BlakAdder has just posted in another game in this forum, and bump this thread in the hope he sees it.

[The Fonz]

Prod BlakAdder

Who clearly seems to have forgotten about this game.

[The Fonz]

Man, that last post was scummy.

[The Fonz]

How's that read coming, SG?

[The Fonz]

...And?

[The Fonz]

What, do you want a list of who I think is scum/not scum?

I'd like some kind of analysis... basically anything at all that might give the impression that you actually want to find scum, as opposed to being scum sliding by on 'helpful' but meaningless non-scumhunting posts the entire way.

[The Fonz]

Farside,

, you apparently believe BA is Jap and EA SK. Who's greek?

[The Fonz]

Indeed. However, Cybele did the same thing, SpringLullaby is still doing it (

mod: prod please. Another one that's posting elsewhere.

) And LF, upon replacing Cybele, has been the textbook opportunistic scum.

[The Fonz]

The 'whiny scum' tactic won't work either.

The only, and I mean only, reason I'm not voting you is that LF looks even scummier.

If you're town, you're hurting your side by active lurking.

If you're scum, you're doing just fine. But don't be surprised when we lynch you.

[The Fonz]

What, in particular, did you dislike about that comment?

[The Fonz]

Another thing to think about is that there's probs two greeks alive. So you can look for ties between living players.

[The Fonz]

@Fonz: 'Whiny'? I would consider that someone being pissed, but to each to their own opinion.

Awww, woe is me, those nasty boys are cwiticising lil' ol' me...

Let me ask you something.

When you played in that game with SSK. Did you criticise his play? Did you tell him he was hurting the town, or try to get him lynched?

If you did, then objecting to how I'm treating you here is ridiculously hypocritical.

If you didn't, then you have only yourself to blame for losing that game.

As for being pissed:

YOUR HORRIFIC ACTIVE LURKING REALLY PISSES ME OFF.

unvote, vote: Shadowgirl

Incidentally, the SK should probably claim. They have a better chance of winning as town, if LF is truthful, than as SK. I'd like everyone to agree that we will lynch anyone claiming SK if they don't do it immediately.

LF: Do you really think it's a good idea to do something obviously scummy, that relies on scum being incredibly stupid? Of course I'm going to push when people make assertions they can't logically back up from what's in thread. It's called scumhunting.

[The Fonz]

Unfortuntately (or fortunately) I haven't played with you before so I don't know whether you are normally this agressive or patronizing, but it is a good sign of scum trying to cause a townie to break down. (Sure, go ahead - say what you want.)

Sure. That's complete crap, however you phrase it. Town players should be aggressive (I see passivity as something of a scumtell, though obviously it can be ). I haven't patronised you AT ALL. All I'm doing is attacking you for scummy/antitown behaviour, as town players should in every single game. You've responded by basically making this personal,
as if it's somehow rude to criticise the way you're playing. You were pulling the 'rereading, will post soon' trick which, if you've played with MafiaSSK before, you know is the tool he uses to avoid contributing.

It is not patronising to suggest that it takes half an hour at most, not three days, to read three pages. Again, I read the first forty pages in about two hours. The vast majority of your posts also tend to be what someone (I can't remember who, exactly) termed information instead of analysis. You've done very little in terms of looking for scum, building cases, evaluating other players.

All these things look like scum trying to get away with not contributing, and are therefore valid things to attack.

Also, it's not like I'm alone:

If somehow ShadowGirl does NOT get lynched for her play in this game, we will be able to point back to it as an example of "how to lurk in Mafia games when you're Mafia without getting caught." Because man is she writing the book on it.

Why do you try to guilt-trip me, whilst ignoring the fact that 'Shadowgirl is active lurking' is not exactly something I'm alone in thinking?

If you genuinely had the town's interests at heart, you wouldn't threaten me with doing something that hurts the town if you're part of it.

That was a valid question about being whiny. Anyway, by acting this way YOU are doing a disservice to town as well. Do you honestly think that angering me to such a point that I do not want to post is helping town? Really?

However angry I am making you, i can promise you you're making me threefold. See the above: you wouldn't be making this threat if you were town, and genuinely trying to fulfil your win condition.

About SSK: Yes to the first, sorta yes to the second. It was due to the mechanics that made that harder.

So, seriously, can you not understand my desire to force lurkers and active lurkers to contribute?

Back to the current game...

Anyway, about my 'horrible' active lurking - can I motion you to the last post of the previous page? Can I point out that massive has been doing just as bad as me, or even BA?

You can, but it would be untrue. They've been nowhere near as bad. Massive has been giving opinions and making arguments (and, fwiw, I have him just below you on my scumdar).

As for the last post of the previous page, I have two points:

1) That post itself is the result of pressuring you to contribute
2) It's actually really quite scummy. You make a load of minor points which you don't follow up on, then jump on the biggest wagon, with another player that everyone suspects as no2.

[The Fonz]

Because BlakAdder is a fairly long way down on my 'people to lynch' list? Since if LF is truthful, he is not the SK, I can't see him being Greek, that really narrows the window of possibility for him to be scum at all. Basically, he has to be Jap or town in my eyes.

Don't know why you're calling for an SK claim from BA specifically, btw, since he's almost certainly not.

Re: Llama's claim- you're right that it's not likely a mafia claim. It does make sense as an SK claim, actually- but he's still not a priority for today.

[The Fonz]

Meh. Ignore the bit about BA not being the SK. I thought EA, BA and SL were LF's investigations, and didn't get time to check properly before I had to go out. Apologies.

[The Fonz]

If he does claim, the Mafia could easily kill him tonight to prevent us from earning another player. If the SK claims, then a Doc (if there is one), should protect him tonight, but not claim.

I'd imagine the SK loses his kill. In which case, why should the mafia target him?

Did you miss that we lynched our doctor?

[The Fonz]

Also, if actions are resolved simultaneously, he will be killed at the exact same moment he becomes town, so will have the town win condition.

[The Fonz]

BlakAdder: Who's scum? You've suggested not LF and not me. You voted massive way back, and haven't followed through on it. You were voting Jebus on LAL grounds, then moved to LF over some BS apparent 'slip.' You then unvoted, and you haven't done anything resembling scumhunting since.

[The Fonz]

I'm not sure I entirely buy LF/EA's read on BA, but i still don't think he's today's lynch.

SG would still be my choice- also getting 'middling' vibes off of Jahudo.

[The Fonz]

I'm still sold on BA scum. My alternative would be massive.

Why?

[The Fonz]

I'm still sold on BA scum. My alternative would be massive.

Why?

Why what? My opinion on your reason to think that BA is town is that it relies on appeal to emotion and outguessing how far scum can go to make themselves look town. IMO looking town is the easiest part of the scum job, especially in a situation like facing what is most probably a crap town gambit.

That's not my argument.

But more to the point- that's a reason not to defend him, not to suspect him in the first place.

You see, if scum catch anyone lying about a result in a multi scum group game, what do you think their reaction would be?

I'm not sure you entirely understand Jebus' argument, but whatever.

I think it would be that they've caught scum. Which make faking outrage all the more easy.

Then observe how BA has ignored the game this entire day, leaving his vote on Jebus on the ground that he caught her in a lie, but now is switching his vote on me out of nowhere. I see no reason why his evaluation of Jebus would change now if he were town.

Well, he's changed his vote, not necessarily his assessment. I can think of some town reasons for doing that- namely, that no-one agreed with him.

@Lama. I've read SG as town all day and don't see quite where this is going. The only thing that I haven't liked is her saying that you are exaggerating her suspicion. Imo, town pretty much never argue that they are less suspicious of someone then it appears. But I still think BA and massive are scummier.

What do you like about her play, then?

[The Fonz]

Why do you read her as town?

(Oh Look! Is that stone bleeding?)

[The Fonz]

It's actually not a trick. SK has more chance of winning as town. (Of course, there's the bit about playing to the WC you currently have. And no-one wants to do a Thok. But meh).

[The Fonz]

Massive: there's a significant SG wagon

now

. Do you want to vote her? Why or why not?

[The Fonz]

I pretty much agree with LF.

Well, it had to happen sometime.

[The Fonz]

BlakAdder's seeming unwillingness to shift his vote to save himself is bizarre, but town-looking.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, she's scum.

Confirm vote: Shadowgirl

A cop with absolutely no useful results whatsoever? Pull t'other one.

[The Fonz]

I always seem to be kept around for this sole reason - I'm a fairly easy lynch. As far as not breadcrumbing, I didn't breadcrumb as doctor in Open 70 either.

Being lynchable does not make you town. Having not breadcrumbed in a past game does not mean we should let that part of a claim go.

Not to mention... who the hell breadcrumbs doctor?

[The Fonz]

It's not impossible that SG could be a cop... but there's a huge list of hugely convenient coincidences that would have had to happen for it to be true. And her claim fits absolutely perfectly with what you'd expect textbook scum to claim in that scenario.

[The Fonz]

The idea that the wagon is primarily scum-driven seems bizarre to me. Everything you've done, or claimed to have done, this entire game fits scum perfectly. If you're actually a cop, it's hard to see how you could have looked more scum if you tried. Three investigations, and NOT ONE that is of any use to the town? WOW. Seriously.

Btw, if you're trying to allude to the town win condition, that should be modkillable.

Incidentally, 'I told you so' only works if i'm town. Since you're assuming as such, i can't help but think you're full of crap.

[The Fonz]

So, like, all the atrocious lurkers were scum EXCEPT the one we lynched? Figures.

While Fonz does work, its a much harder fit then Sierra is.

Now where was this kind of reasoning yesterday when you were allying with Sierra to try to make out I was Greek?

And, hehe, Farside is ALWAYS scum.

At this point I would put Sierra as the Greek, Jahudo as Jap damned if I know (massive/fonz just know not sierra/EA) as SK.

The SK strikes me as pretty much a non-issue if you're genuine, since you'll be able to psych tonight, and that will narrow it right down.

I DO think Jahudo strikes me as lynch candidate no1 at this point.

Also, remember: since we gave the SK the chance to come out, this means we now have to agree to lynch anyone claiming SK. Agreed?

Also: I demand a massclaim.

[The Fonz]

Happy enough with that order.

Vanilla townie.

[The Fonz]

How about we complete the damn massclaim?

From my perspective, either Jahudo or Llama HAS to be scum. Jahudo's claim of vig means that with the two scumgroups, we've then got all four kills claimed. Either Jahudo is the SK, or Llama was lying when he said unequivocally that EA is not, there are no other options- UNLESS someone admits to having blocked Llama in the remaining part of the massclaim.

[The Fonz]

Greek has to be between two people so it makes more sense to look there. EA and you are killing roles, Jebus is a watcher, massive doesnt fit after that BS wagon yesterday and im the psych. Just leaves two people to fill that slot.

If either Fonz or Sierra is greek, then wouldn't the last jap be either massive or Fonz/Sierra that isn't greek? Then I understand what you're saying that we have the best chance at finding mafia in Fonz/Sierra.

When I am looking for Greek mafia I can eliminate you and EA due to you two being vig/SK. Jebus is the watcher which is proven or the most amazing lucky guess from scum ever. Massive I dont think is Greek after the wagon that farside and SL tried to start on him yesterday on the weakest reasoning possible.

Just FYI, incredibly weakly reasoned attacks are an indicator of bussing, since they're not likely to turn into actual lynches. Also, I can't remember which of you it is that was saying that farside defended me by wagoning massive instead- when farside had unvoted massive before i even replaced in.

Look, it was a vote, based on terrible, 'oh is that a scum slip' reasoning, and dropped immediately she felt she could get a lynch on someone else. That's not pushing a wagon. That's distancing. Farside was on BlakAdder for most of the day, which says to me she thought he was rival scum.

Springlullaby

never even voted massive

, which kinda torpedoes the theory that the pair of them were 'trying to start a wagon.' The totality of them 'trying to start a wagon' consists in one incredibly badly reasoned vote, which was removed

one post later

, and SL saying he was her second suspect after BA, whilst voting BA (scumbuddy second) and then saying she'd be willing to hammer if ever a wagon arose on massive, on the spurious premise that she didn't like him returning to the game after a replacement had been found.

Seriously, Llama if you're not scum the way you're playing really pisses me off, because it only took me, like, five minutes to look all of that up. And that little lot couldn't be more obviously a bus if it were red, had two decks, a driver, a conductor and an advert on the side saying 'God probably doesn't exist. Now stop worrying and get on with your lives.'

That just leaves Fonz and Sierra from process of elim.

Remind me to give you the lecture on why i hate process of elimination when the game is over.

I will

vote: Massive

In the pretty certain knowledge that he will hammer me.

[The Fonz]

Dammit. I KNEW it was bullshit when he claimed not to get results unless a guilty. Courage of convictions and all that.

[The Fonz]

You know SG, if you'd provided even one actually useful result, i wouldn't have pushed for the lynch. Two invs on dead players plus one incredibly convenient RB claim absolutely stank.

[The Fonz]

THat's a really good read, thanks LF.

[The Fonz]

What I get from the Greek QT is how you're surprised we lynched the cop, given how incredibly scummy she was. Then again, i suppose you knew she wasn't greek, which everyone else thought.

[The Fonz]

Seriously, Llama if you're not scum the way you're playing really pisses me off, because it only took me, like, five minutes to look all of that up. And that little lot couldn't be more obviously a bus if it were red, had two decks, a driver, a conductor and an advert on the side saying 'God probably doesn't exist. Now stop worrying and get on with your lives.'

I actually was convinced that you were the last Greek near the end of the day, and almost everything I said scumhunting wise there was exactly what I was thinking. In a situation like farside was where massive said something that was

not

scummy and he was my partner in a potential mylo, with targets like BA and SG already obvious, I didnt buy a bus at all.

You see, I would instinctively think bus there. In fact, when I went through their posts for evidence to rebut your attack, it leapt out at me.

The argument that they were somehow defending me/Niv was obviously flawed: since they never did try to 'wagon' massive. They didn't wagon me because a) their buddy sierra already was b) the main case on Niv was lurking, and those two were also lurking and c) the remainder of your case on him, as I pointed out at the time, didn't actually make sense.

@ ShadowGirl: Yes, I know. But it wasn't certain we had a cop. And you were out-of this world scummy. You lurked (the whole taking five days to read three pages thing was ludicrous), defended it by pointing out that other people were undercontributing too (an argument that implicitly concedes that lurking is antitown) then jumped the biggest wagon, with the second biggest wagon as your number 2. You made hilariously hypocritical posts like this:

Unvote

Vote: BA

For the massive amounts of oppurtunistic voting and active lurking.

I really can't make up my mind about massive and his hypocrisy about my active lurking. :/

and claimed cop when facing lynch, with

no useful

results. Basically, you did almost everything I'd expect textbook scum to do.

Plus, you claimed no result on armlx: every game i've seen prior to this one, it's been standard mod practice to give results on dead players, for sanity reasons. So it really felt certain that you were lying. Llamafluff's argument against you there basically sums it up perfectly.

Additionally, even if you were cop, I had no faith in you actually being able to help the town (since 4 killing groups at that point meant that you were likely to declare another 'result' on a dead player'). Note that the other players in this game whose play was most similar to yours were scum.

If somehow ShadowGirl does NOT get lynched for her play in this game, we will be able to point back to it as an example of "how to lurk in Mafia games when you're Mafia without getting caught." Because man is she writing the book on it.

[The Fonz]

That's a fair point, though I don't think you helped yourself by going for people that were obvtown. It's just unfortunate your claim came out looking a lot scummier than it did. I know what you said happened, but that doesn't mean it's what we'd have expected of a mod. I mean, he has to pm you to tell you to look, it's as quick to give the result! Plus, telling you 'look in the thread' is effectively telling you you're sane, which mods shouldn't do.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, and investigating Tar because of a link to Sierra before you'd demonstrated Sierra = scum didn't really follow.