Large Normal 241: Random Pictures and Other Stuff | Endgame

[Datisi]

(for legal reasons that is a joke)

[Datisi]

i've never bussed in my life

[Datisi]

VOTE: csf

if we didn't before, we have now

hopefully i wake up to a flip >_>

[Datisi]

no flip?

[Datisi]

hey friends, i'm a little busy irl so quick word from me:

scamper and i reread most of the game together last night, and while we did have a few disagreements, we agreed on a poe of {mena, shea, frogs, fire}, with preference for the first two.

when i get home in a few hours, i can summarise our thoughts and why we consider every other player clear - but the current tldr version is

i reread 212 pages of this game last night, and i once again came to the strong conclusion that shea/gamma are nowhere near clearing for shea and i will very very likely not rest until shea is dead today

[Datisi]

4 goons + sk is possible but like, seems a bit mean for the scum and also i think in that case we just win? so probably not worth bothering with

well if titus doesn't die by f3, we'll know

[Datisi]

titus, you think we should be massclaiming here?

[Datisi]

ok, i'm finally HOME, i have COFFEE, time to paraphrase 5 pages worth of mason dialouge

hang tight

[Datisi]

how in the everloving fuck would there be 3 scum remaining

i was counting on there being one left

[Datisi]

okay, so i'm gonna separate the thoughts we had on each player, then add whatever else is there into ~notes~

as i said before, we believed the correct poe to be {mena, shea, frog, fire}, vaguely in that order, with everyone else being townie enough to not be immediately considered

also, some notes will have (s) or (d) at the end. meaning the point was brought up by either scamper or me (and some maybe repeat bc we were doing our rereads at different times)

guiltylion

- he is townie because he was one of the rare people that actually seriously considered scamper's scumread on hem on d2 (3940, 3964, 4005) (s)
- 1202 and the posts surrounding it are probably not s/s, as vpb probably doesn't have great associates w the last scum either (d)
- interactions with baltar prob not scum/scum, and also scamper said he's found it easy to see where gl has been coming from in the game, so he's a bit stornger townread for scamper than for me (s)

ausuka

- vpb's interactions with his buddies should probably not be overthought, since all his interactions with flipped scum have been... very bleak. so the baltar/ausuka fight is very likely t/s (d)

dannflor

- hem has a lot of posts on day 1 that were shitpushing dannflor, to the point where they do not look s/s and where dann might just be clear off hem flip alone (1133, 1177, 1206, 1578, 1585, 1588, 1693, 2335, 2337, 2348 quickly turned into 2397) (s)
- prior to the vc in 4314, which had s/s gamma/hem wagons, he voted gamma. scum is less likely to vote the lesser scum wagon in this scenario (same as deasvail) (s)
- 987 and 1144 don't feel like s/s (d)
- 1438 feels opportunistic and not s/s (d)

deasvail

- around the competing wagons of hem/deas, obscure was having a really really awkward read on hem (lol, 4096), and instead tried to help push deasvail (4109) (s)
- prior to the vc in 4314, which had s/s gamma/hem wagons, he voted gamma. scum is less likely to vote the lesser scum wagon in this scenario (same as dann) (s)
- the vc in 5145 is townie for deasvail (s)
- obscure was cosistently pushing deasvail throughout the whole game, and that is probably not s/s (s)
- csf's vote on deas in 5455 and the vc in 5457 - csf knew that both her and tweetie are on borrowed time this game and would flip eventually. so csf was probably trying to push a cw to tweetie to at least get one town flip there (and she was pushing deas) (s)
- on page 33, gamma and hem are having a shitfight, that we now know is s/s - in that light, don't think deas is scum because gamma kept ignoring his vote/scumread on her (d)
- page 51 is the first time that deas interacts with scum about the read on me (reminder deas was townreadign me early, hem gamma vpb were either scumreadign me or seeing me in a negative light) (d; scamper told me this is stupid because deas was rather inactive and didn't have opportunity to react, i told him to fuck off) (we didn't actually have that conversation i would never tell him to fuck off)
- 2304 probably not a bus vote by deas (d)

fireisredsir

- 5499 is oof (s)
- fire going "maybe both wagons are right" at the time in 5145, when the wagons are obscure and deas, while he himself is pushing deas, is horrible (d)

frogsterking

- bad interactions with hem, defending him (4120, 4288) while having very few direct interactions with hem (s)
- the awkward read vpb had on frogster (d)
- 2593 is awful (s)
- hem did not interact with frogs at all (s)
- awful interactions with/around tweetie prior to her yeet - the awkward 5479, defending tweetie (5483), attacking deasvail (5504, 5509, 5514, 5520), BUT flipping back to tweetie right after scamper and dann vote her (5528) (s)
- that time scamper called out frogs for literally lying about eira's meta and nobody gave a shit (s)
- frogs being generous to tweetie/hem while not showing the same generosity to others eg. deas (s) (note: i am currently mulling over frog/mena interactions)

shea

- when i asked whether i'm insane to think he can be scum, scamper told me no. scamper said that shea should not live to endgame as there's too many odd things happening between his slot and csf's slot. also, he noted that shea's responses to pressure have felt weird when compared to everyone else's, which is something i was vaguely feeling too, since day 2.
- 2022 is like, a horrible post in retrospect (d)
- the reads given between hem and irrel are not good (s)
- 4025 is a very... brutal post (s)
- 394, with the knowledge of town-me and scum-baltar, is awful (d)
- also 400. and the quick turn onto vpb in 652 does not make any sense (d)
- i compared shea's "i'm never scum with gamma!!!" to my yelling in open 857, where i was scum and i knew we were fucked but i kept very loudly and very persistently saying that my associated with flipped scum make no sense to be s/s
- 4050 is yikes (d)

miscellaneous

- 3481 fire/shea not s/s (d)
- page 162 is not s/s for fire/shea because it doesn't make sense that fire would be doing a lazy busvote on hem while shea would be doing a godwaful defense of hem (d)

[Datisi]

by the end of the night, we were both leaning mena scum, i was leaning shea scum more than frogs, he was slowly leaning frogs more than shea, and fireisredsir was the "well he's the only person not insanely townie" pick for both of us

i will try to reread parts of day three now that we know mena/s_s are s/t, and see i learn anything new from mena officially flipping red

[Datisi]

that said, i am fine with there being a massclaim:

frogs
shea
fire
ausuka
deas
dann
guilty
then maybe titus, i'll decide after everyone else claims

[Datisi]

frogs
shea
fire
ausuka
deas
dann
guilty

frogs, a serious claim please

[Datisi]

if you wanna turn this into yeeting you and then us proceeding normal play tomorrow, i am fine with that

[Datisi]

I can't believe that frogsterking actually thinks I replaced in, with a buddy dead, and my play was to make a whole day bus on my partner including metaing him in multiple games and continually trying to get the pressure and spotlight back on to him like literally the whole day while basically no one else was following me and literally every person was telling me that I was reading him wrong because his tone was townie.

this is an example of what i mean wrt shea's play being similar to my own scumplay in open 857

i reread day 2 yesterday, and this is simply not reality

sure, shea did scumread gamma and do some ~meta~ on her, but he also pretty strongly pushed deas and fire and this claim is disingenuous AT BEST

[Datisi]

Like are we not going to talk about frogsterkings play at the end of the day at all? We're just going to go right back to something smart when frogsterking did basically "try to save my buddy and then hammer when it becomes clear I cant 101"

that said, scamper did specifically call this out as a Good Post form shea, so

[Datisi]

i kinda thought the shea/obscure ones are? especially both of them together?? so like with mena flipping scum i don't think that would be where i'd want to go first

can you link/explain this one pls

[Datisi]

am i dumb for thinking gl is townie for posting around page 215?

like, i think at that point tweet has probably said "uh oh guys i'm gonna die" in the scum pt and like, i struggle seeing scum!gl then go and write big cases on obscure

if it really was that tweetie replaced in and said "uh oh guys i'm going to die" and scum-guiltylion was like "l know!! i will start writing a case on obscure!!" i am going to scream

[Datisi]

okay yeah turns out that i am not able to focus on this game much after having read 200+ pages yesterday

i'm gonna try to stop thinking about this game for the next 24 hours or so, in the meantime i'd like to finish the massclaim in the order i proposed, and i'd like people to actually talk about who they wanna kill today and why

[Datisi]

Also just a reminder I have had strong scum reads on all of the flipped scum this game at various points of this game.

sigh

[Datisi]

god, d3 is so difficult to parse through with the misclear, why didn't you just shoot the cc nero, goddamn

also shea, it's your turn to claim

[Datisi]

titus, i don't think we gain anything mechanical by you being alive longer - we're at odds, so another vig shot doesn't grant us an extra elim. with that in mind, i think it might be better for you to help out with dayplay today

[Datisi]

Also, what happened to Datisi's I-don't-think-frog-is-mechanically-capable-of-replicating-this-play-as-scum?

at some point, the amount of bad and pro-scum takes you've had on the game starts to outweigh that.

[Datisi]

i don't see how my actions forced you into defending hem or tweetie, but go off i guess

[Datisi]

have you read anything what i've posted at daystart. i think it had a p good case for deas town.

[Datisi]

that said, i am fine with there being a massclaim:

frogs
shea
fire
ausuka
deas
dann
guilty
then maybe titus, i'll decide after everyone else claims

reposting this for wherever we left off

[Datisi]

i think last scum is in shea/frogs, but i also think there exists the world where they're both town and it's fire. which means... rereading fire's cases on d4, taking a quick skim of invictus...

shea, i know you've been thinking fire is scum for a while now, but i don't think you've ever laid out why, exactly? can you do that if you didn't, point to me where you did if you did, and explain how that read was evolving with the flips we have right now?

[Datisi]

I really don't think it's Frogster anymore.

I don't think Shea is playing to endgame.

Fire is. Too many reflective step backs my guy

my annoyance is because both shea and frogs feel so fucking scummy!!! but i've been vague thinking about this game and it's like, the more they feel like silly townies doing silly things

i can hear scamper yelling at me as i type that

I know that convincing you that frogster is town will likely cause you to vote me but what do you think about dannflors point about frogster-gamma-obscure?

we actually did comment on that post during our reread

it's like, i agree that post is indicative of them both not being partners, but it's like, just one post, in a game where we know gamma-scum made some effort to distance (eg hem)

[Datisi]

even if you flip town, i am still going to call you scummy because that's what some of your posts have been

also, "silly" isn't meant as an insult there but apologies, it came out wrong

[Datisi]

oh no you def get credit for good reads then

but those two things aren't mutually exclusive

[Datisi]

we should never have lost the go game

do you think frog here is similar to go

[Datisi]

i actually sat down, and with a lot of breaks and distractions, read frogs's scum iso in large 238

and it is like

very different than his play here

*headdesk*

[Datisi]

if we're talking about "frog bussing mena", i don't really think that's out of the question as s/s because i would not be surprised if mena's first posts in the scum pt were something like "ah shit oh fuck i'm prob going to die soon, bus me lole"

the *intensity* with which he did it is something else, but that's going into the general "can scum-frogs replicate this" read, not "would scum-frogs treat a partner like this" read

[Datisi]

i would be very surprised at there being two scum left, but i have been wrong before and i will be wrong again

also,

v/la wednesdays and thursdays

, my schedule is packed those days. will be checking in between classes, but if there's anything that requires a lot of attention, it's will have to wait my evening

[Datisi]

(my wedding is in less than a month :O )

congrats!!!

[Datisi]

how much of that case became void once csf and obscure flipped? i have a half baked thought about it, this is a reminder to myself to look at it again

[Datisi]

i think if the wagons were s/s, scum would be more likely to be actually voting one of them, idk

but also i need to check the context again, mostly who was getting replaced at that pou

[Datisi]

People who have done associative dives are there good reasons dannflor is unlikely to be scum that I am not remembering?

8048

[Datisi]

Can you walk me through why you think the hem posts earlier don't look distancy to you? Because some of them look quite distancy to me.

it seemed to me like hem was more serious about wanting to kill dannflor than he was about wanting to kill gamma there

i'm not sure why eira votes their own partner as the only thing that they do this game, and then unvotes because monkey cute or whatever it was

also hem had a post about how replacements were +scum (att when dann and frogs were replacements) and it's like

i don't have a better explanation than vibes, sorry

1438 doesn't give me the "bus vote vibes" that gamma's hem vote on d2 gave me (which reminder i immediately called out as a bus vote); this one feels less attention grabby and more like scum trying to get onto a misyeet wagon without ruffling any feathers

[Datisi]

feeling like garbage today, i'll be useful after i sleep

[Datisi]

i'd love if you were explaining these thoughts as you have them, titus

mostly bc i cannot follow (eg. fire town dann scum)

[Datisi]

The problem with Gamma is that they're in a similar category as HEM, they're Towned by IIRC scamper and also by Ari posthumously.

could this not be scum grabbing for towncred for his buddies using the voice of Real Townies? If Frog is town it's unlucky that he had a position of "well I scumread their play but conf town thinks they were town" on not one but two mafias

frog, can you show me an example of where town-you cared to build a townblock / what dead town is thinking as hard as you did this game? i don't remember that being an aspect of your play in bunnies, but i could be forgetting

[Datisi]

if I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I don't sense any kind of contingency plan for if CSF dies, I feel like actually fully reversing on his scumread on me when there was an

unexpected

buddy going down just isn't necessary and is kinda bad play when he's scum

that's another thing though... csf going down was not unexpected. by that point, they knew that there is a non-marci vig in town, and that csf was claiming their shots.

and it doesn't seem like fire tried to urgently push you out before that either.

pain.

[Datisi]

also I will admit all of gammas interactions towards fire do read like pocketing versus buddy interactions

*especially* for gamma

Baltar has the most awkward interactions with frogster out of everyone here ok im done i said i wasn't going to case

no no please continue i wanna hear more about this

[Datisi]

if titus is scum tho i dunno how she wins here so I guess it's not something I'm particularly worried about beyond like

I will hate everything about this game if it turns out we cleared scum twice ina fucking row

titus can survive one more day with me getting shot, maybe

after that, it goes straight to "titus why are you alive"

maybe not even that, if she doesn't have a full bp as sk, maybe groupscum kills her before us

in either case, feels like a "cross this bridge when we get there" type of thing

[Datisi]

obvtown!frog

are you really obvtown if the entire game suspects you :thonk:

[Datisi]

that said, i am fine with there being a massclaim:

frogs
shea
fire
ausuka
deas
dann
guilty
then maybe titus, i'll decide after everyone else claims

reposting this for wherever we left off

everyone but titus has claimed vt, yes?

also, if frogs is scum here, gotta say he has absolutely NAILED his town-tone. like, deadass, 10/10.

[Datisi]

I'm going to steamroll you into the dirt scum!tisi, I want to have your skull embedded in my throne.

damn, this was a good quote

anyway

i went to check frogs's behaviour in bunnies when he was getting pushed, and hm. in that game, his behaviour was much more centered around "x y and z are scum! this is why they are scum! please listen to me you fucking idiots!" while his behaviour here is more like "these cases of me are utter shit! you're town but i am gonna be spending so much time making fun of the cases against me!"

do i have strong conclusions here? not exactly. sample size 1 etc etc. but i wanna see frogs answer my q in 8417.

[Datisi]

it's possible a new player goes for the townread on two partners but is it likely

i don't think obscure was new

"villagery" and "real-timing" aren't phrases that i often hear new players use

[Datisi]

i've seen also do it before

more specifically, i've seen hectic pretend to be new with an alt, and lolhammer someone and pretend he's a newbie who didn't know what intent or claims are

(then i had to kill him because he lolhammered my scumbuddy and i was malding but ok besides the point)

[Datisi]

ok i had a thought that is probably stupid but like

when you guys say you've seen people fake being new, what was the context for why they did that and how they used that idea? because like, the hectic thing sounds like he was trolling, and i don't think that's what happened with obscure.

hectic played that game straight, he wasn't trolling or gamethrowing

later on, he told me he hammered bc he had a strong scumread on the player and didn't wanna let him get away because of a pr claim

but he pretended to be new, so

[Datisi]

this might be dumb but my thought was like... if he was pretending to be new, it might explain his behaviour around deas, if deas is scum? because if people believe obscure is new, they would be reluctant to believe he would tunnel a partner like that?

i think in general it looks more like obscure was trying to save hem by pushing deas, even when ignoring the alt shenanigans

[Datisi]

and iirc it was quite sudden, scamper built that wagon quickly. i'm skeptical of wagonomics around that, and certainly i don't think obscure was playing around it.

i think there are posts where obscure has very awkward reads on hem while he continues to push deas

and with that context in mind, it just like, doesn't seem like a planned s/s distance to me

also: do you actually scumread deas? because if not, i don't see the point of this exercise

[Datisi]

datisi put me fourth on his list so

the massclaim order isn't just my reads, i was honoring scamper's there too

also i literally asked whether you scumread deasvail because otherwise i don't see why you're doing this (with the implication being WHY do you scumread him because i feel i have very decent reasons to townread him) but go off ig

[Datisi]

like am i not allowed to like talk or speculate about things unless i explicitly scumread a person? i obviously do not townread deas as strongly as you do; i have not felt like his play has been particularly town across the game. i don't think he is the most likely player in the game to be scum and in particular the obscure tunnel on deas is +town for deas, would be my main point to think that. so if i have a thought that might explain a deas scum world why shouldn't i do it? why do i have to view everyone as explicitly scumread or not scumread and if i'm not scumreading someone i'm not even allowed to fucking discuss the possibility they might be scum apparently

i was under the impression that you were seeing deas as scum and were trying to fit obscure's tunnel into that, not the other way around

because it seemed like you don't actually think the obscure vote on deas is scummy, but that you think deas is scum despite that

which is why i asked if you scumread him, because otherwise this discussion did not make sense to me

[Datisi]

probably better questions would be why is deas potentially scummy then

[Datisi]

town

[Datisi]

On the other hand universal backup doesn't make a ton of sense in the setup without the two vigs? Maybe it does? Does universal backup copy masons? I assume so?

it does copy masons too, yeah

and i don't think gated serial killer makes any sense because that role would just be an incredible "fuck you" to whoever randed it (sk is already shit to play, imagine being gated)

the only way an sk makes sense (imho) is if the sk was shooting every night and doubled up on kills with scum at points

[Datisi]

frog, can you show me an example of where town-you cared to build a townblock / what dead town is thinking as hard as you did this game? i don't remember that being an aspect of your play in bunnies, but i could be forgetting

@frogsterking

[Datisi]

i didn't mean to lash out, i thought datisi was criticising me poking around deas without scumreading him and tried to respond that i thought it was unreasonable to expect me not to do that, i don't mean to lash out at anyone suspecting me. i did not even perceive that as datisi suspecting me but saying my posts were pointless.

sorry, i should've made it clear what i was saying immediately

[Datisi]

This game is so large and I think if I stare at it long enough I can find a reason to town or scum read everyone

i wanna hear the scumcase on me pls

[Datisi]

is it the think where
who was it, lld and katsuki
where someone claimed masons with scum
and then got janitored

i vaguely remember hearing about that LMAO imagine if scamper was fakeclaiming that would be very funny haha right guys

[Datisi]

can't wait to win don corleone for this game

[Datisi]

i did not know you are that familiar with my games??

[Datisi]

obviously yes

[Datisi]

titus, can you claim please and also start explaining the votes and reads you have? i think it's better to have them out than hope that scum keeps you alive one more day for you to shoot

[Datisi]

i don't see how that stops you from claiming...

[Datisi]

anyway, frogs, i'll be a bit more explicit in what i'm looking for - as town, did you ever refuse to vote a player on the basis of "the townblock is townreading them", or recommend another player not vote someone on that basis? or the inverse, did you vote someone because the townblock was scumreading them?

i read your iso in tft (or i tried to, at least), i didn't see that; and 500+ posts in lost is a bit uh. and i'm assuming you'd remember doing that if you did it, so.

[Datisi]

oh no, i'm asking because your "i don't wanna vote this person because The Townblock said they're town!!" was used to defend scum here, and i've never seen that behaviour from you before. if you had done it before as town, then it would be at least explainable, but it seems like you didn't, so...

[Datisi]

no, i think using reasoning you've never used before in order to defend flipped scum is something you're more likely to do as scum, i thought that was obvious

[Datisi]

Datisi, I'm not claiming.

meh, i was hoping i wouldn't have to listen to "but what if titus even night sk" anymore, but fine w me, you're dead before endgame one way or another anyway.

ETA of your reads reasoning? i don't think we get much by dragging our feet along fire/frog for long, but i don't wanna end the day until you've said things.

[Datisi]

obvtown!frog

are you really obvtown if the entire game suspects you :thonk:

also, this might've been framed as a joke, but - why are you obvtown, frog?

besides, you need to answer 8536

[Datisi]

Not only does my question get ignored but Datisi brings up Shea's question and not mine which is the post above

ok but i asked your question before you did so lole

[Datisi]

why are you obvtown and why are the cases on you bad

there, translated

[Datisi]

i mean

my reason for you being "obvtown" is you being toxic as shit at parts in the game

and like, that only gets you so far, especially with the poe being what it is

so do you wanna present an alternative reason(s)?

[Datisi]

Like none of this feels like a genuine attempt to solve the game. If I'm wrong, show me. I'll unvote you immediately if you can adequately answer the questions in that post. I don't think you can because I think its nonsense.

last time i saw frogs in this situation, he wasn't being like "scum is xyz but i won't do anything to show why", he was spamming the everliving shit out of the game explaning who is scum adn why

(also i see there was a hammer? so i guess moot point lole but yeah)

[Datisi]

@Datisi

i was asleep

and also i don't really care about you having correct townreads in those two posts, that was never my point

[Datisi]

VOTE: frogsterking

just in case that wasn't hammer

frogs has to die at this point, both for being scummy and for the complete inability to do anything while he's alive

still think the tone vibes townie but as i said, can't let someone endgame for acting like an asshole

[Datisi]

Auskua! Ausuka! Ausuka!

[Datisi]

i have never lied in a game of mafia period