Mafia 83 - Game Ended Scum Win!

[chazworthington]

vote: iamuser

for voting with a grudge

In all seriousness, I've seen K7 in one game that's currently ongoing, so I sort of understand the argument being made about him. Can anyone point me to a completed game?

[chazworthington]

Five more votes to lynch killa seven-scum. Gogogo!

Reclusion, I don't see how this post is any different from battlemage's latest posts, except for BM asking k7 to claim.

[chazworthington]

That said, if Alvinz95 and/or Killa Seven don't get here and start participating by, say, Wednesday at the absolute latest, I'll be sending a bandwagon their way. Post or perish.

I'd prefer a replacement for them instead of voting them off at this stage of the game.

[chazworthington]

I tend to think that people like BM and killa seven are seen as easy targets for scum on D1. And that extends to all lurkers. I'm a bit suspicious of Yaw at the moment for that fact.

Along those thoughts, both Battle Mage and iamuser put in votes for k7 that got him to L-3 within a 20 minute time period. Both those feel opportunistic.

[chazworthington]

On page 1? I don't believe anyone could really believe a wagon on page one is liekly to lead to a lynch.

The fact that the votee was a chronic lurker on top of a quick 4th and 5th vote makes me think its possible the play was oppertunistic and much less likely to be questioned.

[chazworthington]

@Chaz WTH?
Why are you already talking about easy targets, while the day has just started. Besides why do you see BM as an 'easy target'? And those votes against K7 where to me mostly because he lurks in most of his games. However I wasn't in those games and thanks to me his attitude will change. Have faith .
Also you mention BM as both an 'easy target' and as opportunistic. Could you explain your thoughts about BM?

I'm saying that from a scum perspective, both Battle Mage and k7 would be easy targets for lynching based on their previous play. You even said it yourself: people voted for k7 because he lurks in most games. Scum can easily pile onto that wagon without fear of looking opportunistic.

My thoughts on Battle Mage are limited: I know there are enough comments about his play on this site from when he first started and because of that, I think he'd be another easy target for bandwagoning. However, I don't know what led to the "most improved" title under his avatar, and I have not metaed him so I am using old information here.

I stand by my statement that Battlemage's and iamuser's vote on K7 could easily have been scum making an easily disguised opportunistic vote.

[chazworthington]

You shouldn't underestimate BM. He's tough and everyone who attacks him has to admit after a while how great he is. Besides, when he's started he won't stop. Then you'll know how great he is in creating discussion. You'll be amazed what he can do. <sarcasm, except for his discussion abilities>

Chaz, I really don't see BM as an 'easy target'

By "easy target", I meant scum might assume people would have opinion's similiar to Tovarish post 58.

I have never played with you before, I disagree with your style, but I was simply unfamiliar with it.

I also need to ask you about this, even though other people have

xtoxm, I meant that as far as I know, he started talking about it without someone asking him. And that at the start of day 1. Like he said by himself, it's too early to know. If there is someone who sees someone as scummy, with the exception of 'that player is scum, because he lurks' then that would be pretty impressive. He based it upon their playing style if I'm correct. That's why I don't like it.

You followed it up in post 141 with this:

but I don't like it that it's based upon playing styles while the game is only 6 pages long.

which really bothers me. You're basically saying there is nothing that can be pointed at: not two people who seem to be acting together, not an opportunistic vote on a bandwagon, not posts that appear to be largely fluff and little scum hunting. What do you propose we do D1, then?

[chazworthington]

vote: iamuser

for voting with a grudge

To clarify, which of my two votes so far does this refer to?

Your first vote for Alvinz. That was a joke vote on my part. Right now the thing that stands out on you is you were the 5th vote on k7 at page 2, which as I've mentioned to others, feels opportunistic to me.

[chazworthington]

I tend to think that people like

BM

and killa seven are

seen as easy targets for scum on D1

. And that extends to all lurkers. I'm a bit suspicious of Yaw at the moment for that fact.

Along those thoughts,

both Battle Mage

and iamuser put in votes for k7 that got him to L-3 within a 20 minute time period. Both those

feel opportunistic

.

hypocrite much?

BM

Nope, although it's not worded well on my part. Either of those statements I think are very possible here, obviously both of them can't hold true for you.

[chazworthington]

Maybe you're seeing something I'm not, but so far it's a bunch of "you're scummy", "no you're scummy". None of them seem to be worthy of any additional discussion.

I'm in the process of taking a couple notes to remind myself to look back at a few things during the next game day, but right now I don't have anything more than a few feelings.

Bolded is mine. I'm going to single Netman out here but this applies to others: I don't think D1 is about catching scum in a lie or anything concrete like that. I think its much more important later in the game to go back and see who people claimed to be suspicious of during D1. When people say "It's D1, I can't really find anything", I think its time to start looking at those people.

Brief tangent: not only does that line prevent you from leaving a trail, it can also be newb scum who can't find anything suspicious on people they know are innocent.

To single out another person

It's hard for me to point out something particular, it's just a general feeling i've been getting from you.

I'd like to see examples of posts that are giving you this feeling about hasd. If something is hitting your gut, there must be something you read that gave it to you.

Unvote

for now, while I re-read a couple of people's posts.

[chazworthington]

First off, sorry for disappearing. Work exploded with the quarter close coming.

Bolded is mine. I'm going to single Netman out here but this applies to others: I don't think D1 is about catching scum in a lie or anything concrete like that. I think its much more important later in the game to go back and see who people claimed to be suspicious of during D1. When people say "It's D1, I can't really find anything", I think its time to start looking at those people.

Just curious. Say for the sake of argument that I know I'm town. And assume all I have now is notes about potential connections, inferences, and hunches. How does it help the town for me to point these out

today

, when I can point them out tomorrow? Again, assuming I'm in the uninformed majority, I don't

know

who is innocent (besides me) and thus personally have no strong preference who gets lynched out of the pool of unknowns.

In fact, if I did have some strong opinions (but no real facts), wouldn't it be best to bring them up

tomorrow

, when I have more information to go on? In fact, the only reason I can see to throw around suspicions right now is to make myself look less like scum trying to lurk.

But again, if I have strong opinions, I want to look scummy enough to survive the night, given that scum often kill the least-suspicious pro-town player

.

So chazworthington, feel free to FOS me, or even vote to lynch me, but first, tell me what would be the smarter play for the town in the current situation.

Bolded is mine.

I have no problem with holding cards if it gives scum enough rope to hang themselves. At the same time, I believe its important for everyone to weigh in and try to scumhunt D1. To do otherwise would give the scum a free pass.

As to your question, I'm going to answer that it is entirely dependent on what you are observing.

The bolded part is the problem. You're playing for your own survival instead of the town's in this case. I know anti-town does not mean scum, but I don't like that statement.

As requested:

FOS: Netman

[chazworthington]

Chaz, if you look at the third quote from me you used, you can see

'only 6 pages long'

. I never said the whole day. Besides, what did we have during those 6 pages?

I do't have time to look for it now, but you've made the same argument when the thread was "only 7 pages long" as well. At what point does the thread get long enough for you? The one newbie game I played on this site I caught scum on D1 on page six, I just didn't know how to convinve teh town of my argument.

[chazworthington]

Again, apologizes for the lack of posting. The quarter is almost closed, at which point things will relax.

What's the use in claiming in a normal game when the votes are on me?

Option 1: I claim townie. I still get lynched.
Option 2: I claim a power role (Doc/Cop). There's some hesitation, I still get lynched.

But since you seem to insist, I claim Doc.

I'm really torn on the wording here. On the one hand it looks like it was typed with self survival in mind. On the other hand, I'm also getting a vibe of frustrated townie. I don't know which one to listen to more at the moment. The concerns over beliveing you could self protect have already been mentioned elseswhere.

I'm going to echo the comments of not wanting to lynch a claimed doc on D1, but I agree there are some issues with the claim. I think our best option is to meta Jebus. While we can't discuss any on-going games, we may be able to find games in which he acted in the same way but was town. Or we find a game where he did hold a doc role and didn't act this way. I'll try to do some of that tonight.

Right now, I'm most comfortable with a Netman or Mana lynch. I don't like Netman's statements implying he is playing for self survival. Mana's fluff to stuff ratio is out of control. I'll make more formal cases tonight as well.

@Yaw - Point taken on the voting.

Vote: Netman

[chazworthington]

@mod: I unvoted in either page 7 or 9, so I assumed my vote for netman would have counted. Or do you always want an unvote, vote syntax even if I've already unvoted?

I agree with Yaw that we need to have a lynch today. I'd prefer not to lynch a claimed doc D1. I think we have a few better cases.

I'd support the following lynches:
iamuser - you never actually commented on my statement that your vote for k7 was opportunistic. I'm curious as to why you dropped it

mana - your fluff to stuff post ratio is out of control.

Netman - HAven't seen him since the 16th, I believe. Was very active defending himself, then seemed to disappear once the BM/cow conversation started, then Jebus started pinging radars.

And lastly, Mr. Gnome.

@Xtoxm: You think what's ok? K7 and Alvinz lurking? Cuz that's not ok. Regardless of how much is going on, intentionally not posting is never ok.

Also, I agree with Yaw that it should be up to us to get them to start talking here. And if that means threatening to vote them out, then that's what we do.

That said... Unvote: Iama... Vote: Alvinz95

He's going after lurkers and questioning xtoxm. I've already stated that I don't like going after lurkers this early, but this seems to me that he's trying to scumhunt.

Unvote; Vote: Jebus because it's the best we have to go on for Day 1.

This is his next post of substance, and he's hoping onto the Jebus wagon. 3rd vote on it.

I honestly can't recall ever seeing a self protecting doc in any game I've ever been in, so I'd say it's definitely a non-standard role, if that's what you actually are.

This is his last post in this game, and he's just echoing what others have already said about Jebus.

I don't like how Mr_Gnome started off at least questioning people, then moved his play to just following the Jebus bandwagon. Maybe scum are having trouble pointing fingers during this very quiet D1?

Unvote, Vote: Mr_Gnome

I would prepfer to lynch any of the four players I listed, preference is the reverse order I listed them.

[chazworthington]

While I agree, if I and chaz switch back that brings us to 3 votes. It's not enough for a lynch. Besides which, he isn't around to answer for himself, which sucks this close to deadline. So voting for Netman means we'd have to be willing to blindly lynch a lurker. (Not that he doesn't deserve it, but is a blind lynch an acceptable thing here?)

Been having trouble getting into the site tonight. Not good.

The biggest issue with Netman is that I don't know if he disappeared after the heat went off him because he was lurking or if he just disappeared. A lynch is better than no lynch, however. If quints also moves with us, then we'll have 4 votes at deadline, which I think will make this happen, no?

I won't be around much Saturday, but will be able to post before the deadline.

Will also compile a list of people that need prodding/replaceing over the night.

My apologies for contributing to this. Thanksfully, the quarter's work is done. and won't be an issue going forward.

[chazworthington]

Do you think a blind lynch is acceptable? That's really the big issue here.

Given iamuser's statement that he hasn't posted anywhere on the site, the right thing to do is get him replaced, I believe. The problem is we're running up against the deadline. I don't know what the proper move in this particular case is.

If not Netman do people want to move to Mr. Gnome or mana?

I'd really prefer not to lynch a claimed doc D1, but if that's where it falls then I'll help to make sure that a lynch occurs.

[chazworthington]

Rereading Thoughts:

alvinz95 -- Still way under what I'd expect for participation, both in terms of number of posts and content. I can wait for that big post we're promised today, but there had better be something good in there.

BM -- Frenetic, but I've heard that's normal. Has good content, though. That said, do I have to explain why lynching a claimed doc on day 1 isn't a good idea? I think Jebus's logic and play so far have been absolutely scummy as well, but surely waiting for tomorrow on this one can only help. Oh, and I still don't have a clue what the hell he saw in that post that in any way implicated Cow.

chaz -- No objections to his logic or posting amounts so far, but he doesn't vote. At all. That kind of extreme hesitation worries me -- it shows me he's not willing to put his money where his mouth is.

cow -- Lots of posts. All but one are one-liners. Really unfairly targeted by Jebus and Netman. Doesn't mean he isn't scum, but solidifying the alignment of one of the other two would make that a lot clearer.

iam -- Posting's a bit on the low side, but was one of the first people on Jebus for contradictory statements. Don't like that he's willing to lynch a claimed doc day 1, but he at least provides a rationale for it.

Jebus -- I think the issues here are pretty much established. While I know I've been saying you don't lynch a claimed doc day 1, if absolutely necessary to get a lynch before deadline I'd support it. Lynch is better than no lynch, and that claim was just fishy enough that I could see a viable rationale for it. I'd rather look elsewhere at the moment, though.

killa seven -- 6 posts total. No content. I see what people mean about chronic lurking, because this is ridiculous. Either scum for lurking, or deserves to be lynched mercilessly until he decides to actually play the games he signs up for.

Mana_Ku -- Lots of positive, fawning posts about other players that are really raising my scumdar right now. Problem is, there are so many possible connections I'm not sure where to begin on who she might be scum with.

Gnome -- Also a poor vote count. Same as killa seven, but with admittedly more content. Which makes post 109 suitably ironic. I think I'd go for killa seven over him as I know Gnome's at least capable of better...though on the other hand that makes his lack of participation worse.

Netman -- Really bad logic overall. Admits he's way more concerned with the optics of how he looks to the town than in finding scum. Has gone back to lurking once the pressure left him and went to Jebus (no posts in this game since Tuesday).

Tovarish/qwints -- Nothing from the former. The latter hasn't been great either, but has had a lot less of the game to post in. Lots of one-liners, so I'd really like to see more content to be able to judge anything.

Reclusion -- Really do not want to see her replaced. She's been contributing in really positive ways. Comes off as pro-town to me so far.

Xtoxm -- Lots of posts, but not much content. A lot of one-liners. Tried to push suspicion on Cow twice with no reasoning. Unwilling to back it up with a vote. (Still, even if he were at the top of my list, I don't think it's fair to run up a bandwagon on someone who's V/LA with an upcoming deadline.)

So, lots to choose from. I think Netman has the big trifecta of scumminess, though.

Vote: Netman

We just got alot of wine with this post.

Yaw was fairly aggressive against Netman and Jebus. Also went after k7 early on.

I dont think this proves Netman's innocence: If Netman is scum Yaw could easily have been bussing for the logic posted. I'm a bit more sold on Jebus's claim at the moment given that Yaw went back to Jebus near the end of D1, although I think it would be good to hear how qwint's scenario would be handled.

[chazworthington]

Here are my questions about last night
1: What would have happened if Yaw roleblocked Jebus, Jebus protected player x, mafia tried to kill player x and Yaw was killed by a sk? In other words, are the results consistent with Jebus being a doc?

2: Is there any reason to expect a vig instead of a sk? Also is there a possibility besides those two that I'm not seeing?

3: I agree with iamusername that Jebus should say who they protected with. That seems like it would provide useful information. Is there any reason this would not be a good thing to claim?

1. As stated before, I'd like to hear the answer for this one. BUT, I don't want the discussion to generate into discussions of other power roles.

2. Yaw was the most vocal D1, so my first thought was we have a SK. However, all we have on this point is speculation.

3. I don't have much experience in this area. I can think of cases where it is good and others where it is bad. The problem is it gets into the discussion of other power roles, which is bad for the town.

[chazworthington]

@iam - I protected Chazworthington.

Why me?

[chazworthington]

Alvinz, what do you think of Jebus claim right now?

Bogus.

I claim scum.

Ugh. Do we need to worry about a jester in this game? Are they common in normals?

Before this post, I'd have been fine with an Alvinz lynch. Now I'm wondering if we need to have the vig/SK target Alvinz tonight and lynch someone else.

[chazworthington]

If you took my claim scum seriously, then you are scummy or scum. Hasdfgas is scum and Jebus.

How do you expect people to react when you claim scum?

Claim: Bodyguard (protect but die if successful)

Are bodyguards possible in Normal games? I don't know as I haven't played many games on this site. Who did you protect last night?

Will self-hammer in 1 day if given the chance.

Do not self hammer. If you're town there is no reason to self hammer: you actually deny the town information in that case.

Seriously, this is either mis-guided townie, WIFOM scum or jester. Are jesters common in normal games?

[chazworthington]

FoS: chazworthington

Why did you feel it necessary to mention jesters yesterday?

What was your first reaction when Alvinz wasn't defending himself and later claimed to be scum? That sounded pretty good play for a jester to me.

[chazworthington]

Nothing to do with Flavor. Let's just say I have Role info.

Did you have this info for Alvinz yesterday?

FoS: Panzerjager

This would be a vote, but I don't want another quick lynch.

[chazworthington]

There is no SK, I'm quite sure.

Night 1 - No kill, I saved Chaz.
Night 2 - A lover is killed, and his/her partner dies (which is part of the role).

No SK here :/

You're forgetting that Yaw was killed N1

Still, I'm starting to think we should be focused on the mafia at this point.

[chazworthington]

Oh, and who did you protect last night?

[chazworthington]

I'd still prefer to target mafia as opposed to an SK at this point. I'm also a little surprised that all the discussion has been towards looking for the SK instead of mafia.

I need to re-read. Sorry for the lack of posting the past couple of days. In the meantime, Panzer can you explain some of netman's comments from D1?

[chazworthington]

The sun started to reach over the mountains and 9 people slowly gathered around to the town's center. They looked around but could not find Battle Mage or iamausername! They had both disappeared. The 9 people broke into two groups to find where each person was. The first group found BM, who had a bullet wound right in the center of his forehead. Then, they noticed that Battle Mage's face had hearts with Iamusername all over it. They knew that
Battle Mage was Iamausername's lover
As thus, the first group found the second group and helped them find Iamausername. Tovarish was extremely bored and decided to make a wishing coin go into the local lake.

Here he found Iamausername stuck at the bottom of the lake with a knife stabbed directly in his heart. The Knif'es handle was engraved with "Battle Mage, my love, my moon in the evening, I will miss you dearly".

This confirmed the fact that
Iamausername was Battle Mage's lover
The 9 villagers decided to go back to the center of town to avenge all of those souls that have been lost to the dreaded scum.

Above is the flavor for the deaths of Battlemage and iamuser. There should be no question that Battlemage was NKed. The bolded part is what we're disagreeing with: my initial read was that iamuser was committing suicide via his lover role. I'd agree that there was only one kill, or possibly that battlemage was targeted by both the mafia and SK/vig. It would be a hell of a coincidence that both lovers were NKed in the same night. I doubt this is going to yield anything, but it probably should be asked:

@Mod:

Can you confirm if iamuser was NKed or committed suicide?


Regarding Panser's claim:

Netman came pretty close to claiming he had a role D1, which is a point in his favor. But I really don't like how he went after Alvinz without any explanation D2.

I think the fact that both Jebus and Panser are both alive right now is very suspicious. It still bothers me the way Yaw went for Jebus at the end of the day, when we would have had enough votes to lynch Netman.

@Panser:

Can you explain, after you saw the results of N1 and heard the night action Jebus claimed, why you still pushed hard for Alvinz's lynch without providing any explanation?

[chazworthington]

That's a strange mistake to make Jebus ...

That said, a sk hitting a suicidal lover seems unlikely (although the text on the first page does seem to suggest a double kill similar to alvinz's lynch + modkill.) I'm willing to proceed under the theory that we have a serial killer for the moment.

If panzer is to be trusted, I don't understand why we shouldn't lynch a known sk. Isn't a known sk a plus for scum?

1) The town has to have the sk dead to win.
2) The scum can simply endgame the sk
3) The sk is significantly more likely to hit town than scum
4) Every two extra townies killed costs the town a chance to lynch.
5) We're more likely to hit scum the day after we lynch the sk (assuming a nk)

So, if we trust panzer, we must lynch hascow today. I am unwilling to trust panzer, however, before he makes a full claim and allows an opportunity to counterclaim.

Regarding this post:

Based on points 1) AND 2), doesn't that mean that it is in the SK's best interest to try and kill scum right now?

My concern about going after a SK now is that the town doesn't have much room for error to win, even if we do lynch the SK today. Hunting for the SK lets the mafia hide another day, and they already got a huge gift D2.

I really think we need to find scum today. And I think we need to give extra attention to those looking for the SK.

[chazworthington]

I agree that it looks like a double kill.

Agreed. My bad.

We've got a few problems here at the moment. K7 isn't contributing at all. Reclusion was never temporarly replaced as far as I can tell. And we've got a deadline approaching.

In Yaw's list of players D1, he mentioned that Cow was unjustly targeted D1. That might be the closest thing we have to Yaw defending another player.

Yaw also stated he was going after the lurkers. Looking at who's been posting alot D1 and not so muchafterwords, Mana_ku sticks out like a sore thumb.

Of these two, I like Mana over Cow. She's stated earlier that we needed more than 6-7 pages to make conclusions. We're at 19 now and I'm still not seeing anything.

Unvote; Vote: Mana

[chazworthington]

My point is that if we have a known sk, we should lynch them. That doesn't mean we should focus our efforts on finding the sk before the mafia, just that we should lynch known scum.

And my point is that if we do that today, then we start D4 with 7 players and most likely only one mislynch as our margin of error. And that's not just the town, the SK is also in the same position. Since our interests are aligned at the moment, it's in the SK's best interest to target scum at night, and in our best interest to not lynch him today.

[chazworthington]

In Yaw's list of players D1, he mentioned that Cow was unjustly targeted D1. That might be the closest thing we have to Yaw defending another player.

I find that scum more often defend townies than their partners. Have I actually done anything scummy to make you think I'm scum? Or are you just thinking that based on dead scum "defending me" and Panzer's terrible "info" on me?

I'm not basing it on Panser's posts on you. Mostly Yaw's posts as frankly that was the best stuff to go on at the time. There isn't much chatter going on. That said, I'm not voing for you at the moment, although I am considering what BC has to say.

[chazworthington]

Are you saying the sk is basically a vig for the purposes of today? It's not like the sk knows who is scum and who isn't, so the question appears to be if the chance of the sk hitting scum tonight is greater than the chance of them hitting town.

Pretty much. Lynching the SK today lets the mafia hide another day and then we've got one more day until LYLO. Fortumately, the SK is in the same situation. At the moment, our interests are aligned. That's why I'm not too thrilled about the discussion focusing around the SK during D3.

[chazworthington]

Welcome, BC and thanks for the posts. At the moment, I only have a comment on the following blurb about reclusion:

I had a scum gut on him too, but I can't find any evidence to support it based on posting, so I can't really get behind that one. I still can't pinpoint where the original feeling came from. Also, if he was on vacation for 4 weeks (announced properly) it would kind of suck to not get replaced as requested and then get lynched immediately upon return.

Yaw made mention in one of his posts that he'd hate to see reclusion get replaced. I don't have the time to search for it now. It's probably nothing, but I don't think it should be forgotten.

Unvote

Need to review the exchange between BC and Cow.

[chazworthington]

Apologies for lack of posting. Got busy in the planning/executing of the girlfriend's birthday. Will be posting tonight.

Off the cuff, not pleased about Xtoxm defending panser like that. When's the last time we heard from him? Do we need a prod?

[chazworthington]

Regarding the timeline for Panser replacing in, the mod made that post an hour after D2 started. I read that as Panser replaced in during D2, not N1. Given that, I'm willing to vote Panser as soon as I can confirm the votecount. I think he's at 2, but I'm not sure.

Agreed with BC on getting a replacement for k7.

[chazworthington]

I checked SSK's isolation when I said that, I didn't realise there were other posts in between. I think that does make my point null, actually.

I was thinking that even if he was faking, he wouldn't have overlooked something like that, but I can't really see anything that backs him up now.

He could have if he was assuming the mod sent all the night choices to a replaced player. In fact, some people here made that very assumption until SSK said otherwise.

At any rate, Panser's posting elsewhere on this board and not here. We need a vote count to see where he is officially at, then I'm voting for him.

@mod: can we get an updated vote count?

[chazworthington]

sorry for lack of posting, id like to hear from panzer regarding his claim.

And in the meantime, I really want to hear your opinions on the other players.

[chazworthington]

Given the vote count, I am fine with hammering. Before I do, I want to hear from K7 and what he thinks of the remaining players. I think it's very important for the town to get this info before N3.

[chazworthington]

Given the vote count, I am fine with hammering. Before I do, I want to hear from K7 and what he thinks of the remaining players. I think it's very important for the town to get this info before N3.

what players exactly? and why is it so important..

qwints's post 550 spells out exactly why I asked this.

Regarding panzer, I will hold off hammering to see if he explains himself.

[chazworthington]

B) We have a dead mafia RB. I don't think we have two anti-town blocking roles and I think he is what he claimed.

Why do you believe his claim? Between Yaw making a last minute push for Jebus over Netman D1 then Panser disappearing in this game after SSK's statement, I think there is a pretty good chance he is scum. He's posted in other games after that statement.

I am still waiting to hear from him at the request of the town.

[chazworthington]

Should we postpone our go on Panzer and go after someone else in the meantime? I fell Chaz may be a trustworthy person at this certain moment.....Chaz said Mana and Cow on page 19 looked suspicious. I prefer Cow. Any thoughts?

My comments on Mana and cow were mostly related to how Yaw was treating them D1. I liked mana better because of the fluff. This was before BC replaced in.

I don't think I see a better case for a lynch today than Panser. But while we wait for him, can you tell me why you like cow other than the fact he was one of two players I mentioned a few pages ago?

[chazworthington]

Ugh. His lack of a self vote during this entire time was also making me think he was scum.

It would be fantastic if the self voting/hammering would stop, by the way.

[chazworthington]

The way I see it, if the 'masons' are running a gambit and risking the mason claims, they run the risk of the sk killing one at night and exposing the lie. It would be much, much easier and less risky for mafia to not make that claim.

I'd actually consider suggesting that the SK verify this claim N4, but I'm assuming that Jebus was a double kill? Which implies the SK wasn't hunting mafia last night. Unless I'm reading it wrong again and Jebes protected one of the night targets?

The town is in serious trouble here. Everyone needs to check my logic but I believe the following to be corect:

Assume we lynch non-SK, non mafia today. We're down to six and after N4 we're down to 4 assuming no double kills. If no mafia dies that night, town is dead.

Assume we lynch mafia today. We're down to six and after N4 we're down to 4 assuming no double kills. If no mafia, SK killed that night town is dead. If one of the mafia, SK ARE killed than night, town has a shot.

Assume we lynch the SK today. Then town is at lylo and needs back to back correct lynches.

Under the first two scenarios, town needs help from the NKs to survive. Under the third scenario, we need to i) lynch the SK today and make the next two lynches count. None of these paths look terrific right now.

If we assume qwints and reclusion are telling the truth, then mafia is 2 of BC, K7, Xtoxm and Cow.

Since it would be suicidal for a SK to claim mason then SK is one of BC, k&, Xtomx. (I understand I'm not clearned as a SK). This doesn't mean that we don't need Reclusion to confirm qwintz, and even then it only clears them as the SK.

Whichever path we take, we need to make this lynch count.

I've got some re-reading to do.

Mod please prod/replace K7 and prod Reclusion.

[chazworthington]

No comments? No errors in my logic? Disagreements? Thoughts as to hunt for scum or the SK today?

[chazworthington]

@chaz: let's not assume qwintz and reclusion are telling the truth. How does that change your thoughts?

It adds a unique scum pair to the list of possible mafia. It also adds an extra complication to N4.

Overall, if we add them to the list of potential scum, then we might be better off going after the SK tiday.

[chazworthington]

Ugh, I missed that. That might change things.

[chazworthington]

Apologies for lack of posting, will try to get more content in tonight. As a heads up, next Sunday-Tuesday I'll have very limited access again. But for now:

At the end of the day, I don't think qwintz's claim tells us much since all Reclusion can do is confirm they talk at night. If I'm understanding this correctly, neither mason can confirm the alignment of the other? (Never played with unconfirmed masons before). So the options are this:

1) qwintz is telling the truth about the masons - doesn't change anything since we don't have alignments and really only his word that he is town. Which sort of degates his entire post at the start of the day.

2) qwintz is lying - in this senario I see no reason for the SK to lie about a mason claim, but as scum its a great way to either i)absolve you and your partner of suspicion or ii)set up a townie to be lynched as LYLO is upon us.

2 is very unlikely, as all Reclusion has to do is deny qwintz claim. So I'm willing to believe they are talking at night, but that doesn't really help us. I think we need to ignore the mason claim for now.

The above all assumes I'm understanding unconfirmed masons.

@ cow regarding the setup: I seem to remember MAfiaSSK mentioning he ran his setup by Adel. I've no desire to play outguess the mod, but Adel would be a good choice to look at a complicated setup.

My brief thoughts on the players, to be elaborated on tonight:

cow - at least twice cow has asked what he's done that's scummy. I think my main answer to that at the moment would be the lack of scum hunting from him. Also not thrilled with the timing of him claiming to believe Panzer D3. Could be scum.

BC - I don't think he's scum, but I need to look at a couple of his posts that I don't have time to do right now before confirming that. He is up in the list for the SK role, however.

k7 - I'm really torn here. Yaw went after JEbus and Netman hard D1 and they flipped town. He also went after k7 early D1. I don't know if this was because k7 was an easy target, or because he wanted to bus a lurker scumbuddy. Could be scum or SK.

Reclusion - Really no good read here for me. The biggest question mark is why ask for a temporary replacement for a 4 week period. Almost sounds like she has a role and doesn't want to lose it. Again, that points to a SK role.

qwintz - Pretty solid posting, but I need to review his posts more. I don't like post 345 back in D1 when he moved onto Jebus after a couple moved to Gnome. Yaw tried to do the same thing earlier. Maybe scum

Xtoxm - I'm not seeing much from him with regards to his usual posting. I also don't like his voting for Reclusion today. Maybe scum. I don't think he's the SK.

At the moment, I'll

unvote; vote: Xtoxm

[chazworthington]

lol, I just noticed we have the same mod in this game as that game. Case closed.

This is a great find. We're mostly back to where we began: either qwintz is lying and he and Reclusion are scum, or qwintz is most likely cleared. We still need to hear from Reclusion, however. And Reclusion is not cleared. Not sure if this is enough of a reason to request a temporary replacement.

Reading the exchange between xtomx and BC, I'm liking my vote on Xtomx at the moment.

Mod please prod k7. As I've asked this before, please consider replacing him

I don't think he's scum but I am concerned about him being the SK.

[chazworthington]

lol, I just noticed we have the same mod in this game as that game. Case closed.

were there also lovers in that game?

@cow: Why are you focused on this game's setup rather than scumhunt? Who do you think is scum?

[chazworthington]

sup? anyone have questions for me? ima slightly read up what i missed.

1. Who has jumped out at you as scum after your read? As SK?

2. What do you think of qwintz claim?

3. Do you think there are any scum pairs we can eliminate?

4. Why do we need to ask questions for you to provide insight?

[chazworthington]

What do you think of qwintz's claim? Why do you think he decided to claim right when day started with no pressure on him at all?

I want to hear from Reclusion or her replacement before answering that.

[chazworthington]

asking for justification on all votes at lylo =/= defending someone.

How do you know it's lylo?

Chaz and I both discuss this recently. Please keep up.

humor me.

I am not going to facilitate your inability to read the posts previously made.

I read it. I want you to say it again.

It sounds like you have a point to make here, I'd really prefer if you just said what you think the flaw/error in logic is.

[chazworthington]

Question: Would you prefer a Reclusion replacemnt at the moment or a modkill?

I'd prefer a replaement, unless he's done something that would require a modkill.

[chazworthington]

Ok, I'm back. Sorry my LA went longer than expected.

I really don't like the pushing for Reclusion when we don't have a player. If we're going to go that route, I'd rather lynch k7.

With respect to the case against Reclusion: The only thing that really strikes out to me is asking for a temporary replacement. Makes me think Reclusion had a role that she didn't want to abandon. If that's true I'm more tempted to label Reclusion the SK since that's a harder role to get. On the flip side, we know the SK hit N2 when Reclusion supposedly wasn't around. And we're all in agreement that Jebus was targeted twice N3 when Quintz didn't hear from her?

Assuming Reclusion isn't lurking, then the NKs would indicate Reclusion isn't the SK. If she's scum, then that clears Cow although Qwintz won't be entirely cleared at that point. I don't think this is enough for me to vote for her.

@Cow: Can you please answer my question in post 640?

@k7: You asked if there were questions. I've asked some, you haven't answered. Please do so.

[chazworthington]

So where exactly are we at this point? Is the deadline still the same?