Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

[MathBlade]

ok i went and looked and bunnies was one of the main reasons i thought your towngame was different than this, so ???

idk why you're saying it's exactly the same. you were wayyy more solvey and active in that one.

my point with bringing up your scumgame is that i don't think you have a record of being very good at scum due to lack of experience. i think your play in the last couple of days looks more like an inexperienced scum than your town game

if you're not scum it could be like cape/eyes/tene/scorp or something. it's possible

Why do you suggest four?

[MathBlade]

my solves have been 4 for so long this game that it's what i default to. you're right tho, i should not be ignoring the possibility of a traitor or two to make it 5

No no no you’re suggesting four now after Titus’s flip. Why?

[MathBlade]

I do not have an inno on tene

I’m about 80% sure tene is scum

Tene if they don’t solve can go back in the pool

I'm pretty sure not one single person read the solving posts I made at the start of the day.

It’s more a pattern. A few walls isnt communication

[MathBlade]

No no no you’re suggesting four now after Titus’s flip. Why?

i still think 4 is most likely. i still think 5 with a traitor or two is possible. i still think in either case we should be hunting the groupscum. none of that has changed. idk why you think titus flipping would change any of it

Then it would be Titus + three others no? Why still list four?

[MathBlade]

No no no you’re suggesting four now after Titus’s flip. Why?

i still think 4 is most likely. i still think 5 with a traitor or two is possible. i still think in either case we should be hunting the groupscum. none of that has changed. idk why you think titus flipping would change any of it

Then it would be Titus + three others no? Why still list four?

ohhh i see what you're saying, i did list 4. idk why! was juggling a few different things at the time that i made that post and got mixed up i guess. it was also a solve with very little thought put into it so i don't think it really holds up anyway. the only way there's 4 left is if there's a traitor imo

Please take while I am at work to get one with thought please.

[MathBlade]

a solve without frog? ok yea ill take a look

With or without frog

Just a solve with thought including Titus scum

[MathBlade]

Here’s the thing, if Frogster is town, this is probably a scum victory because the scum victory path would be Frogster->April.

Why are you so focused on pathing instead of just a solve?

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Titus post because mobile

viewtopic.php?p=13291891#p13291891

Based on Titus scum meta it’s unlikely Scorpious is scum.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Nordom

I would like to gain further information to divine this player's alignment.

This is the first vote off of the Datisi wagon in 1.5.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Datisi

Post 39 feels unnatural to me.

Frogsterking, you may need to do some research on what to expect from this game.

This is a point for tene. I don’t think a scum does this in RVS.

[MathBlade]

I'm not really feeling my dats vote anymore

VOTE: hem

Would also vote fua

Pedit that timing tho

This vote looks sus I need to look back at why Skitter voted Datisi

[MathBlade]

Here’s the thing, if Frogster is town, this is probably a scum victory because the scum victory path would be Frogster->April.

Why are you so focused on pathing instead of just a solve?

I was going to ask why April is so focused on how town is going to elim them

What’s your thoughts atm?

[MathBlade]

if you're scum, obviously you want me to townread you. but, you know that those tiny bits of my "things that town!vp does" list won't help you because we both know they're on that list. bUT ALSO, you know that i know that. so now i'm like, would scum!baltar purposefully drop these little hints, *knowing* that i'm gonna notice them and start losing sleep over them, in order to get into my head?

because i know how much you wanna fool me, but my issue is, like, in the times when i first noticed you doing these tells, they felt more natural. like it made sense for you to bring up notes at the time in oligarchy or guardians because you were catching up on a lot. but here, they were mentioned in the context of a readslist from a half-shitposty first 10 pages of a game. and the "changing votes" thing, originally they were said with much more confidence and self-assurance that i've noticed town!baltar has, while here they just feel said to make sure they've been said

I actually kinda like this

I wish Skitter was here so I could ask her why she liked this yet didn’t Unvote Datisi

[MathBlade]

whenever math is ready

I am not so sure there.

I need to figure out Titus’s plan and how this fits.

[MathBlade]

assuming Math is a mason

then why would scum shoot monkey over Math?

its Math...

I didn't get a staunch read either way yet. Why?

So you read him? If so why did you not talk about him. If your post wasn't about VP then I have no clue what you are on about.

I have no reads yet. I was hoping your answer would narrow things down.

Second, Math is capable of being competent Nero. Logically monkey dying over Math fypov suggests that money has better reads, scum used a strongman, or monkey can better rally people or a combination. Answering this helps us.

Titus said I am capable of being competent. I need to figure out what made her switch and be negative.

[MathBlade]

personally i think titus' original plan was to live to endgame but that didn't work out. the key i guess is finding where exactly that plan shifted to "set the game state up to be in a favorable position once im gone". I'd guess somewhere around 6088

I don’t think she ever planned to live to endgame. She flipped two shot.

[MathBlade]

Confidence level on April town?

[MathBlade]

high

Give me a percentage please? Or some sort of numerical scale.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Malcolm

Don’t bother this is the best way to prove Boon scum

And that proves anything how?

Simple VCA and day play

Boon did anything g possible to avoid VP and Galron

I'm inclined to feel Galron might have been right on scum. Namely those that are right on scum are the ones getting pushed. If VP and April agreed on a scumread, then they are likely scum. I can't see us bumbling this bad without aggressive scum.

The problem is the belief that Math has been agency captured puts me in direct odds with him and I don't want that to become a clusterfuck.

This is when Titus says I was captured when I was right when Malcom was wrong.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Cape

I think Cape or Galron is where we need to go.

Titus really didn’t want Cape most of all.

There has to be a scum in that hood.

[MathBlade]

I just can’t get over Titus voting VP over Cape and I don’t get the Frogger push.

If Frogger is scum then I trust you all.

If Galron is scum we need Cape’s town flip to state that.

Like if I had a vig I would hit Galron.

[MathBlade]

Yeah mainly I can’t sort between the paranoia I have over you and April and the others. But Cape is most likely scum.

If I am wrong then I trust who is left.

[MathBlade]

If Galron is scum we need Cape’s town flip to state that.

We are not really in a position to be doing this.

I tried to read Cape's iso earlier to see whether I'd be OK if it came to this, but I got bored. So I'll try again later.

Yes we are. If not now, when? After another town flip? Based on Titus’s play Cape is most likely scum. It’s who she resisted the most.

[MathBlade]

If Galron is scum we need Cape’s town flip to state that.

We are not really in a position to be doing this.

I tried to read Cape's iso earlier to see whether I'd be OK if it came to this, but I got bored. So I'll try again later.

Yes we are. If not now, when? After another town flip? Based on Titus’s play Cape is most likely scum. It’s who she resisted the most.

I mean, never. We can flip players for being scum. We can't flip players to prove other players anymore. We burned those "proving" April and we can see how that turned out. You'll never get my vote with an argument based on neighbor spec. The Titus/Cape case is the only reason I am even considering this.

Fine I think Cape and Galron has a scum.

I think it’s most likely Cape but if not it proves Galron

My wording was shit. Any issues now?

[MathBlade]

I mean, never. We can flip players for being scum. We can't flip players to prove other players anymore. We burned those "proving" April and we can see how that turned out. You'll never get my vote with an argument based on neighbor spec. The Titus/Cape case is the only reason I am even considering this.

the reason is not due to setup spec and you should know that. i think math is just saying that at least if he is town we get some extra info out of it that we wouldn't get out of a frog town flip

This

[MathBlade]

The way Titus disagreed with me on hood play when it’s a hallmark of her town game is bad.

Hell if both Fire and April are town a tene Cape Galron Titus scumteam makes sense

[MathBlade]

If Galron is scum we need Cape’s town flip to state that.

We are not really in a position to be doing this.

I tried to read Cape's iso earlier to see whether I'd be OK if it came to this, but I got bored. So I'll try again later.

Yes we are. If not now, when? After another town flip? Based on Titus’s play Cape is most likely scum. It’s who she resisted the most.

I mean, never. We can flip players for being scum. We can't flip players to prove other players anymore. We burned those "proving" April and we can see how that turned out. You'll never get my vote with an argument based on neighbor spec. The Titus/Cape case is the only reason I am even considering this.

Fine I think Cape and Galron has a scum.

I think it’s most likely Cape but if not it proves Galron

My wording was shit. Any issues now?

Yes, but it's not relevant right now.

What issues do you have?

[MathBlade]

I don't think a town flip from Cape proves anything about Galron, and he is probably a traitor anyway if scum which is not all that helpful.

Do you think Cape flips town?

[MathBlade]

@Math: Are you almost done analyzing stuff? Should I actually be voting now?

Everything else I am wifom ing so yeah I think if anyone wants to vote I am good

I would like tene to explicitly say if they TR cape or not.

[MathBlade]

feels kinda towny tho tbh can we do frog instead

No Titus didn’t want Cape.

Frogger wagon has no resistance so might flip town.

Cape is much better.

[MathBlade]

Let me restate I want Cape today.
If you want Frog vote Frog and we see who flips and goes where.

You’ve been saying Cape is scum so that’s NAGL fire

[MathBlade]

math dw about it i just get hesitant when things come down to it. i already reconsidered like an hour later and decided cape was best

It’s my job to worry.

[MathBlade]

i was v confident on titus and even after the self vote i was spam refreshing to make sure the flip was actually going to be red bc I was nervous for the 1% chance that it wasn't

I am going to work.

[MathBlade]

april is a very big fish but also shouldn't be fried

Agreed. I want to see which of you is scum if any before moving there. You get one shot at April.

I think Cape is scum maybe just Fire and April and Tene for the rest

With how little resistance frog got he’s in the PoE.

[MathBlade]

i have no idea why the SK theory was being seriously considered 2 days ago and it makes even less sense now

Agreed. It was hard enough to get scum to shoot enchant. SK is unlikely

[MathBlade]

april is a very big fish but also shouldn't be fried

Agreed. I want to see which of you is scum if any before moving there. You get one shot at April.

I think Cape is scum maybe just Fire and April and Tene for the rest

With how little resistance frog got he’s in the PoE.

April and I would deserve an Oscar for this.

Why do you say that?

[MathBlade]

for the resistance point, i think it could easily be frog+galron + someone who decided early that they wanted to bus

Are you the new April?

Start off agreeing then try to convince me otherwise?

Like what April did with Titus?

[MathBlade]

april is a very big fish but also shouldn't be fried

Agreed. I want to see which of you is scum if any before moving there. You get one shot at April.

I think Cape is scum maybe just Fire and April and Tene for the rest

With how little resistance frog got he’s in the PoE.

April and I would deserve an Oscar for this.

Why do you say that?

Never mind, just help me bus her tomorrow then.

I don’t think I live until tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

for the resistance point, i think it could easily be frog+galron + someone who decided early that they wanted to bus

This again has too many people if you think no traitor and Cape scum

There would be two others. Not three.

I think you think there’s a traitor or you’re lying scum or something

Help me out here

This isn’t the first time

[MathBlade]

You’re really growing on my scum list Fire.

[MathBlade]

Fire got one. We should give him a chance to find us another.

No I did. Fire agreed.

We do Cape today.

I don’t trust Fire.

[MathBlade]

It really irks me when people say I suck then diminish when I don’t.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Frog

Yeah, I’m gonna go here because I feel like Cape flips, no matter what they flip, I’d be next.

I don’t want Galron or myself fogging up tomorrow when we should have gotten Frog.

So for me, I like Frog -> Cape

Fire got one. We should give him a chance to find us another.

No I did. Fire agreed.

We do Cape today.

I don’t trust Fire.

Yeah, no, if you’re saying Cape today then me tomorrow.

Yeah, no. I’ve been pushing Frog for 3 days now.

I literally said I don’t know who tomorrow

If Cape is red you against me again makes for a great elim tomorrow

Then I am guessing Frogger is also red so if you win you boost standing

My solve is Cape April/Fire Frog

In that order.

Do not deviate

[MathBlade]

That will be 4 fucking times April disagreed.

4

Malcolm, VP, Titus, and now Cape

Last time I got my way it was scum.

Wanna bet Cape is scum with April?

[MathBlade]

And if any of them flip traitor elim Fire with haste

[MathBlade]

Yeah, Cape’s been playing odd, and has done a lot of weird things if scum, but that might be by design.

I’m okay doing Cape first then Froggy tomorrow

Hmmm now she’s not okay with Cape first now that it is happening?

Similar to Titus

She said not VP.

I vote Cape

She votes VP.

This is blatant

[MathBlade]

also, Math, after you scumside and flip me as vanilla town neighbor, could you go deas?

I wanna elab on that before I die. Also Math, there is a reason you are not dying, it's because you gonna lose us the game lmao and I feel good shading you constantly because you are not playing so well and are confbiasing yourself on your not so good worlds.

The reason I didn’t die was because Nero was pointed out as a PR
Then enchant was killed as possible SK. I freakin told him he was SK so he was SK or two shot vig so scum solved the problem like they were manipulated into doing.

Me living is nothing about play and about PRs.

[MathBlade]

if VP scumflips we need to think about fire and Enchant flipz too. Titus is still scummy and Boon doesn't get a pass for bussing.

You could argue Nero died for reads

As our reads happen to be pretty similar

But I have been pretty much lock step with Nero.

Titus has dropped.
April is still sus for not being on Cape
The only place Nero has been proven wrong is enchant.

Like if Cape flips red I will tunnel April if alive.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Frog

Yeah, I’m gonna go here because I feel like Cape flips, no matter what they flip, I’d be next.

I don’t want Galron or myself fogging up tomorrow when we should have gotten Frog.

So for me, I like Frog -> Cape

you won't be next. if you're switching based on that, don't worry, you don't need to

Speak for yourself

If Cape flips red my dying wish is April’s flip

[MathBlade]

ok fine i really wanted to greed for another result, but i probably die here tonight anyway. and if everyone else has the same poe as me then we can solve easier, everyone is getting distracted. plus (i only realized this recently, cause I'm DUMB) if we flip a scum here and there's a traitor my role will be useless

im a traffic analyzer. so i can check if people have private communications.

n1: save the dragons, does NOT have communications
n2: titus, HAS communications
n3: April ludgate, does NOT have communications
n4: deasvail, does NOT have communications

so the only way dragons/april/deas are maf is if they're traitors. or, technically it could be deas+titus as the only groupscum and then like 3 traitors but wtf is that setup. i think we shouldn't ever elim in that group of 3 and should just hunt the groupscum instead. that's why im only considering maf outside of that group.

UNVOTE: so we can discuss and so that people smarter than me can setup spec

No offense, I am not trusting this until you flip

We can still do Cape
Then if Cape flips red and you die then April is confirmed town.

I don’t buy the level of power here.

[MathBlade]

If you’re town you’ll have to be flipped by scum.

It’s much more likely it’s just Fire April Cape

Because if you were town Fire you’d be hella sus of eyes.

[MathBlade]

To be fair I think you were at risk of dying anyway. I was suspicious that you had a result on me and April.

This makes me think town has a LOT of power though. And so eyes gets some side-eye from me, but I’m not sure that would be the best place to go immediately.

Neither is.

Scum solve the problem with NKs.

If I am wrong and Fire is town they die.

[MathBlade]

for the resistance point, i think it could easily be frog+galron + someone who decided early that they wanted to bus

Are you the new April?

Start off agreeing then try to convince me otherwise?

Like what April did with Titus?

huh? im explaining my thought process for why i think frog scum is still viable. ive said all day that i want one of frog/cape/eyes, and after the eyes claim i slightly prefer frog or cape. im voting with you on cape, and if you want cape, i don't plan to change that

im just having a hard time getting over the fact that frog isn't even trying this day phase

Really? Eyes claims PR and you’re a PR and you’re less sus of eyes??

Really???

[MathBlade]

i also have very poor setup knowledge hence why i want smarter people to tell me what i should think

I think you botched your fake claim but night kills will solve this

[MathBlade]

i wasn't planning to claim at that point so i have no valid reason to be sus of eyes in thread. if I'm just like "there's no way eyes is telling the truth!!" i think that makes it pretty obvious im PR lmao

my claim is pretty clearly supported by my posting this game, but you're right it will prob just be confirmed when I die tonight

I am sorry I just can’t believe April is this bad and town

Let’s just flip Cape get results and see who dies

[MathBlade]

i want to see how other people adjust their solves based on this info tho, which is why i think it was worth it to do it now

To be fair I don’t trust it so I am not changing the solve.

[MathBlade]

Seems like a role you'd put in if there was a traitor and/or hood scum.

Oh no…I am right on setup spec again

Which Titus resisted

And resisted Cape

Ffs let’s do Cape please

[MathBlade]

like it literally could just be cape/frog/eyes and i think that's extremely believable

If so then you die and it confirms a ton of people

And if you’re scum I die then you end up being PoE’d results false and have to bus April

Win win elim Cape

[MathBlade]

I think all scum are probably in Cape frog eyes galron.

yea I think that's very likely, with galron traitor

If Galron is traitor can I get a told you so earlier?

[MathBlade]

surely town cape would just want to elim in my poe here, right? it's not like i claimed a guilty on him. i just explained where my townreads were coming from, and those being poorly explained was a big part of why he was sus of me

Tbh your defense of April is why I am sus of you.

Boon usually doesn’t miss three times in a row

But today Cape then see who flips

If you’re not dead you likely give another result. I don’t buy blocked

So then you have to hit two to three scum when you have two to three clears in like 5 players.

[MathBlade]

More animal named shapes. The Tiger's Mouth is a very common way of connecting stones or trying to develop eyeshape, though further down the line poking at the gap in the middle can end up being a weakness.

---

Official Votecount 5.9

Frogsterking (3): Scorpious, tenebrousluminary, April Ludgate

[E-3]

Cape90 (3): MathBlade, fireisredsir, Eyes without a face

[E-3]

DeasVail (1): Cape90
April Ludgate (1): Save The Dragons

Not Voting (3): Frogsterking, DeasVail, Galron

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes to achieve an elimination.

Day 5 will end in (expired on 2022-04-03 05:45:00).

click here for joined mod iso.

11 alive down to 9 tomorrow. Worst case scenario I die.. You won’t sus yourself, You check frog overnight because how pushed I suspect they might be town. Could be scum. If anything cape + Galron because need innos if you’re town.

Then April, frog, eyes, tene, DV, Galron, std,scorpious, me/you

If you’re alive you will have checks on April, Frog, DV, and std.

That gives you a pool of (if right and frog is town) then eyes,tene,Galron, scorpious.

So swing a stick bound to hit a scum

[MathBlade]

Please bring frog results tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

It doesn't escape my notice that scum-fire on a 4+traitor team can win by killing Math tonight and faking a guilty tomorrow. It's a pretty damn well laid plan if that's what's happening so I rate it as pretty unlikely.

It’s possible but then in that case the exact scum team and the exact town team will be divided

Votes are frozen and then go from there

In that case town is okay if you follow elo rules with fake votes

[MathBlade]

I would honestly prefer to eliminate Eyes today in order to confirm that the town power level makes any sort of sense whatsoever.

No.

If we confirmed power we’d flip Fire for innos.

I’d rather Cape though

[MathBlade]

The traffic analyst from a setup spec standpoint makes much more sense as a scum power.

If Fire doesn’t die I’d be sus as hell but patiently analyze

[MathBlade]

If I take Fire at their word, then Cape elim is the way to go, check Frog to prevent potential miselim

My solve IF Fire is town is Cape/Tene/Galron…maybe sub frog but too many scum in PoE aiming at frog. Makes me uneasy. The check should fix that and be green or red.

My solve IF Fire is scum is Cape/Fire/April/Tene

Those are 3-4 scum in them. Unsure how many are left

It’s much more likely Fire is scum tbh and it’s just that.

A psychologist, doctor, masons, followe versus alien and traffic analyst makes more sense so scum can find masons

[MathBlade]

just to hunt masons??

I’d expect all four scum to have power in the case you’re town.

[MathBlade]

why not follower scum so they can find me/yeet/nero

Because then scum don’t know who the power is and always lose due to power creep.

Every shot has been a PR of some kind and tonight a shot in you/me/eyes is unlikely

It would have to be follower+ something else or some power is missing.

[MathBlade]

The traffic analyst from a setup spec standpoint makes much more sense as a scum power.

If Fire doesn’t die I’d be sus as hell but patiently analyze

No, any scum investigative power is a rolecop or Eyes trueclaiming. Nero's death has to be explained.

Nero’s death if Fire is scum is simple
Nero’s PoE was accurate

If Nero was PR hunted then eyes or another PR

Titus was too eager to agree it was a PR kill.

[MathBlade]

Mainly I don’t see how scum dont insta lose if Fire is town.

[MathBlade]

Have you ever tried elimming Nero when he’s town you’re scum

It’s really hard lol

[MathBlade]

N1 was a mason shot
N2 was an infinite shot psychologist
N3 was Nero
N4 was enchant

Vigs are ICs in normals can’t be given to town
I and HEM are mason clears

Now 4 shot follower, inf shot ta, inf shot psychologist.

Yes there’s two shot alien but …

You’re still looking at 1.5 checks a night accounting for alien.

Ta is the piece that doesn’t make sense here

It could be an OP setup which is why I am not demanding Fire’s head
But of the claims I believe limited shot eyes over infinite shot TA

[MathBlade]

yeet was 3 shot

Sorry typo same problem over first two days

[MathBlade]

i agree tho, it is weird. and means that scum have more power and/or more members than we thought

Yeah hence me not believing your claim

If I am wrong you get an extra check and Cape’s flip serves as a check on you

And you likely planned your results either with help or you’re a highly skilled scum player (you remind me of my scum game)

Or if you’re town you gain a check if I die.

I am planning to win. So if you’re town and I am wrong and I get you the extra check win win

If you’re town ans get shot win win as clears

If you’re scum and I die then town knows my reads
If you’re town and I die then you’re alive to push that argument

So hence I wanna elim Cape

It’s weird but works

[MathBlade]

I think Math's point that Fire could easily be a mafia traffic analyzer is a good one, and the possibility of this is why I would not be in favour of eliminating eyes today. It is also, perhaps cautiously why I would rather not go with fire's first-choice lim of frogster, really as a precautionary measure more than anything else. That's what I'm thinking at least.

PEdit: I kind of get where Math is coming from here.

I feel as though a town flip from Eyes is the only thing that could possibly persuade me of fire scum. Otherwise, if fire fakes a guilty tomorrow I am going to vote wrong.

Or it’s fire/Tene/cape/April and 5 scum and you’re honest

Like mainly I kinda wondering in a Fire town world Cape Town world why Cape wasn’t Insta demolished.

[MathBlade]

don't worry im dying tonight like 100 times out of 100, i wish you all luck

(but keep up the suspicion, then maybe they'll think im a possible mislim tomorrow!!)

Exactly. If you’re town it’s in town’s best interest I am suspicious of you so I can die.

Then if you are town you can argue it with the frog check (yes please I am begging check there)
If you are scum then it’s also in town’s interest of me to sus you

So yes I am being a dipshit and not saying which but relying on DV who I townread to read between the lines

[MathBlade]

dw math i got you

(I think)

I hope you do because you’re the new me.

Both eyes and fire clear you don’t you’re de facto town no matter what as Fire+eyes+you would be ridiculous

[MathBlade]

Fire is scum people.

[MathBlade]

But I am Gonna scum side and elim Cape.

Scum siding mason oh dear

[MathBlade]

Although I might scumread fire for real.

I left both reads. Please still keep fire in the PoE.

[MathBlade]

based on play and interactions i think galron groupscum is unlikely. he could easily be traitor but probably not worth pursuing over other candidates

yeah, I've come to agree with this. Yeet kill doesnt make sense if Galron is groupscum

I still agree to disagree here but not worth it today

If Galron did N1 night kill Galron looks clear and Galron not posting is scum meta

[MathBlade]

Also add eyes to off the table
Fire / Eyes sorts itself overnight or tomorrow

[MathBlade]

From a quick read-through I can't really find anything in ISOs that precludes Scorp/Cape/Frogster/Eyes from being scum together. Not a reason for them being together, but if there was something that meant X and Y could absolutely not be scum together then that would be something to look closely at in terms of thinking about possible teams.

I think my choise of elim would be Cape.

I prefer tene tbh in a fire town world.

Tene doesn’t sit right with me

[MathBlade]

Ugh now I am hungry and realized I worked through lunch.

(Joking)DV is lock scum for this.

[MathBlade]

From a quick read-through I can't really find anything in ISOs that precludes Scorp/Cape/Frogster/Eyes from being scum together. Not a reason for them being together, but if there was something that meant X and Y could absolutely not be scum together then that would be something to look closely at in terms of thinking about possible teams.

I think my choise of elim would be Cape.

I prefer tene tbh in a fire town world.

Tene doesn’t sit right with me

I think you just don't like something about my tone or personality. I should be an easy read here.

I very rarely tone read. I read by play. The closest I come to tone reads are word/strategy choice.

I have to know someone for a looooong time for a tone read.

I don’t like how you keep trying to stop me from elimming people.

[MathBlade]

That statement is a meaningless tautology to me

[MathBlade]

It seems like you want to scumread anyone who dares contradict you and that's absurd.

This is incorrect. I disagree with DV a lot this game and I don’t think I have ever scumread him. How people disagree matters.

[MathBlade]

That’s what I don’t like

There’s a tiny PoE what facts are you using?

[MathBlade]

My view is glasses to be fair
Depending upon a few player’s alignments things change.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: eyes

Why eyes?

[MathBlade]

scum hiding by not even being in the game, very clever flipply

At least it’s not a vote on town lmao

But yeah that’s a hallmark of scum Galron so not worried

[MathBlade]

This is just becoming an exercise in seeeing yourself type..

Can we do votes please?

Already said yes. Sorry if unclear.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: april Cape was townie by dayplay

this vote is horrible and you know it..

I don’t think April vote is horrible. April being traitor makes sense

[MathBlade]

i'm not really sold on either lim but i'm guessing even with frog's vote april isn't happening

april and scorpius both being on frog makes me not want to go that way

i'd rather follow mathblade but i townread cape so it's kind of hard

Why do you TR Cape explain it like I am 5?

[MathBlade]

galron is traitor
april is traitor

everyone is traitor!

I mean one of them is likely traitor.
It’s also possible April is group scum and Fire is group scum or traitor.

It’s more likely that April is scum though. I know I know what Fire says but this is boon scum and I find that very difficult to shake.

[MathBlade]

Frog to me is a maybe and I see town frog worlds

We really should be doing Cape.

This means I am losing to scum again.

[MathBlade]

This really really makes me think Fire April Cape and this is a last ditch effort by scum to avoid elimming Cape.

No one else has the charisma or thread presence

[MathBlade]

Like Cape should be fucking dead.

Fire scumreads Cape
April scumreads Cape
The ONLY person that townreads cape is StD yet the main wagon is Frog because ????

[MathBlade]

deas prefers cape

.

math prefers cape

. april wants both. dragons prefers frog but doesn't really like either. i want both but slightly prefer frog.

might I just add that both of Math and Deas' suspicions on me have been actually weak, especially Deas.

Dude is hardly playing the game and will have us result in a loss

My suspicion is rather strong. It involves Titus not wanting to elim you and Titus was scum. Therefore you are very likely scum.

[MathBlade]

April scumreads Cape

werent you just?

Never mind

April scumreads you and won’t vote you.

Same as Titus.

[MathBlade]

idk if cape scumbuddies really come to his defense like this but whatever

i think they wanted to bus frog lol

Not so sure of that tbh.

[MathBlade]

Prediction: If this flips town, Math will live and somehow find a way to blame me for it.

Prediction: If I love that’s protown soooo

[MathBlade]

A useful proverb to learn even early is

"Corner, sides, center."

This is because it is easier to make territory in corners, than one the sides, than in the centre, and it gives you a direction as to where to play first.

---

Official Votecount 5.13

Cape90 (6): MathBlade, Eyes without a face, fireisredsir, DeasVail, tenebrousluminary, April Ludgate

[E-0!]

Frogsterking (2): Scorpious, Cape90
April Ludgate (2): Save The Dragons, Frogsterking

Not Voting (1): Galron,

With 11 players alive, an elimination has been achieved.

click here for joined mod iso.

We know there has to be a scum on Cape here assuming 4 scum unless it is Scorpious StD Frog and Galron which is problematic.

Myself, Eyes, fire, DV, tene, April.

We also know that fire’s checks mean StD and April not group scum.

This means eyes should likely go today but I really want April still

[MathBlade]

But I want to try to solve the game before I die and I don’t have time to do that.

I was kind of hoping I died tbh as illogical as the hope was.

[MathBlade]

Eyes and Galron are mechanically scum

I still think Frog is a bad elim tbh

April still feels scummy

Gun to my head Eyes Galron Tene April is my solve

[MathBlade]

I know that doesn’t make mechanical sense but Galron and April are in their scum meta so freakin much

[MathBlade]

I am just going to reread the game again after dinner

[MathBlade]

April why frog over eyes?

[MathBlade]

ok fine i really wanted to greed for another result, but i probably die here tonight anyway. and if everyone else has the same poe as me then we can solve easier, everyone is getting distracted. plus (i only realized this recently, cause I'm DUMB) if we flip a scum here and there's a traitor my role will be useless

im a traffic analyzer. so i can check if people have private communications.

n1: save the dragons, does NOT have communications
n2: titus, HAS communications
n3: April ludgate, does NOT have communications
n4: deasvail, does NOT have communications

so the only way dragons/april/deas are maf is if they're traitors. or, technically it could be deas+titus as the only groupscum and then like 3 traitors but wtf is that setup. i think we shouldn't ever elim in that group of 3 and should just hunt the groupscum instead. that's why im only considering maf outside of that group.

UNVOTE: so we can discuss and so that people smarter than me can setup spec

So StD, April, Galron, DV don’t have scum communications

[MathBlade]

If I had to pick an uncleared person to be town it would still be Tene.

I think it's highly likely Eyes is scum, but maybe there's an outside chance that Eyes is town if it's like... a 5 scum-team total? I still don't buy it, but I guess sometimes I forget how town-sided setups here sometimes are.

I'm okay with limming frogster or Scorpious, even Eyes.

Why tene? Like he’s pretty high in my scum pool?

[MathBlade]

ok fine i really wanted to greed for another result, but i probably die here tonight anyway. and if everyone else has the same poe as me then we can solve easier, everyone is getting distracted. plus (i only realized this recently, cause I'm DUMB) if we flip a scum here and there's a traitor my role will be useless

im a traffic analyzer. so i can check if people have private communications.

n1: save the dragons, does NOT have communications
n2: titus, HAS communications
n3: April ludgate, does NOT have communications
n4: deasvail, does NOT have communications

so the only way dragons/april/deas are maf is if they're traitors. or, technically it could be deas+titus as the only groupscum and then like 3 traitors but wtf is that setup. i think we shouldn't ever elim in that group of 3 and should just hunt the groupscum instead. that's why im only considering maf outside of that group.

UNVOTE: so we can discuss and so that people smarter than me can setup spec

So StD, April, Galron, DV don’t have scum communications

Whoops Galron can have comms just has to have done N1 kill

[MathBlade]

Can we go back to the page of analyzing me?

I liked that..

You and Tene are likely opposite alignments.

You agreeing with me on Tene and April being scum is either buddying or I am right

Thus you’re probably TVS or SvT

Frogsterking, Scorpious, Galron, Eyes without a face, Tene

These are the only ones with a mafia PT possibly. Galron would have to have done the N1 kill.

[MathBlade]

If I had to pick an uncleared person to be town it would still be Tene.

I think it's highly likely Eyes is scum, but maybe there's an outside chance that Eyes is town if it's like... a 5 scum-team total? I still don't buy it, but I guess sometimes I forget how town-sided setups here sometimes are.

I'm okay with limming frogster or Scorpious, even Eyes.

I pick eyes of that group

I think scum have some fake innos here.

Now that claim from eyes is suspiciously developed if he’s scum why

[MathBlade]

You're all too noisy and I'm glad I managed to get this far, so I'll claim and let someone better at making connections interpret the info

I was a 4-shot follower. My results:

N1 STD (No Action)
N2 Nero (Protective)
N3 Deas (No Action)
N4 tene (No Action)

I was mainly trying to confirm slots that didn't look like they're going to get eliminated anytime soon. Unfortunately Nero got shot at night which is something I could not have controlled or predicted.

I also thought a goon was more likely to do the kill early on so I thought the STD result was a stronger clear than say that of Deas and Deas is still a bit stronger than tene, but I'll leave that to someone who knows better

Current readlist:

[*]Eyes without a face, [*]Nordrom/Mathblade
[*]Save The Dragons, [*]DeasVail, [*]tenebrousluminary
[*]Aristeia/April Ludgate, [*]fireisredsir, [*]skitter30/Galron, [*]Cape90
[*]Frogsterking, [*]Scorpious

So if Eyes is scum then he has to be reasonably sure that checks are the front are more accurate than later.

Means StD is probably town

I also don’t think scum puts two scum buddies in their bottom PoE

So I think Frog is town and Scorpious is scum
Or Scorpious is town and Frog is scum

[MathBlade]

So frog + tene likely same alignment versus Scorpious.

[MathBlade]

So Scorpious Galron eyes and a traitor April
Or Frogger tene eyes and a traitor April makes the most sense

The problem is both solves suck

DV doesn’t want the latter town reading Tene
And the former has us have to hit scorpious which is bad.

And I kinda think it’s the former

[MathBlade]

Like April has now been wrong 5 times in a row

We’re hitting MathBlade territory. So I really don’t want Frogger

[MathBlade]

Like I can’t make four scum fit with all the people who could have comms so then a traitor has to exist somewhere.

[MathBlade]

Like April has now been wrong 5 times in a row

We’re hitting MathBlade territory. So I really don’t want Frogger

I'm not the only one in this game.

I also was one of the only ones saying Cape had done a lot of anti-scum things, and actively said i wanted to do Frogger, and not Cape, but sheeped you all yesterday.

It absolutely does not matter if you're wrong throughout the game if you end up getting to the right positions.

But you’re the only one who has Boon tells and other crap.

Where’s your Boonskiies stuff?

[MathBlade]

You're all too noisy and I'm glad I managed to get this far, so I'll claim and let someone better at making connections interpret the info

I was a 4-shot follower. My results:

N1 STD (No Action)
N2 Nero (Protective)
N3 Deas (No Action)
N4 tene (No Action)

I was mainly trying to confirm slots that didn't look like they're going to get eliminated anytime soon. Unfortunately Nero got shot at night which is something I could not have controlled or predicted.

I also thought a goon was more likely to do the kill early on so I thought the STD result was a stronger clear than say that of Deas and Deas is still a bit stronger than tene, but I'll leave that to someone who knows better

Current readlist:

[*]Eyes without a face, [*]Nordrom/Mathblade
[*]Save The Dragons, [*]DeasVail, [*]tenebrousluminary
[*]Aristeia/April Ludgate, [*]fireisredsir, [*]skitter30/Galron, [*]Cape90
[*]Frogsterking, [*]Scorpious

So if Eyes is scum then he has to be reasonably sure that checks are the front are more accurate than later.

Means StD is probably town

I also don’t think scum puts two scum buddies in their bottom PoE

So I think Frog is town and Scorpious is scum
Or Scorpious is town and Frog is scum

Because frog Scorpious eyes doesn’t make sense

[MathBlade]

Can we go back to the page of analyzing me?

I liked that..

You and Tene are likely opposite alignments.

You agreeing with me on Tene and April being scum is either buddying or I am right

Thus you’re probably TVS or SvT

Frogsterking, Scorpious, Galron, Eyes without a face, Tene

These are the only ones with a mafia PT possibly. Galron would have to have done the N1 kill.

Mmmmm that’s the stuff…

Still town though..

Ugh this has still cis memes. This is from a trans meme where dysphoria pops up and then there’s a character that says “still cis though”.

Like this post feels off

[MathBlade]

See I don’t like your argument

The way I remember you is you never making a mistake and being mean when I mess up

You’ve been wrong and not mean to me so it’s off.

That feels like a big excuse

[MathBlade]

I know that doesn’t make mechanical sense but Galron and April are in their scum meta so freakin much

honestly, i dont think you know what my scum meta is. You just have an idea of what it is. I can tell, because I actively change my meta to make others think something is my meta often, and this has like none of the signs of a flavor scum game and everything of a flavor town game.

Look at team mafia it’s so similar

[MathBlade]

See I don’t like your argument

The way I remember you is you never making a mistake and being mean when I mess up

You’ve been wrong and not mean to me so it’s off.

That feels like a big excuse

You have been calling me wrong left and right too, so that's a pot calling the kettle black. Ever since I got in this game, you've been only "giving me a chance".

Why is it okay for you to do that kind of thing? For the most part, the only thing I've called you wrong on is your read on me, and that's because I know with 100% certainty it is.

I don't believe I've made mistakes this game, that's just not how I view mafia. being wrong is not a mistake.


My playstyle with other townies is I just kinda point out where I see flaws in their cases. I like the cases you're making, and think the duo of us is beneficial for finding scum. You have a certain perspective over the game since you're conf town, and I'm here on one of the sides. We actively see different parts of this game based on our sociological position.

So when I'm pointing out things I think are incorrect with your pushes, it's almost like a Peer Review type of thing, or like why authors need to have others look over their work because it's harder to see those things from the inside.

I think that's an incredibly beneficial thing to do, and if you can get to that level with another townie, that's how you get soul reads.

Our issue is we just butt heads instead of hug.

It’s okay because I have to. Otherwise you steam roll me.

It’s okay because you have a record of being one of the best townies in all of MS. Like > 80%

I feel like I have to fight against you no matter what.

Titus was obviously in her scum meta then you tried to steer the wagon away after agreeing.

When I talk with you it doesn’t really feel like peer review more like you’re trying to dissuade me to do certain things and you feel agenda y

[MathBlade]

I’m happy considering Scorp today. I guess Frogster’s pop in doesn’t really make me confident in my previous townread there, nor does eyes’ play feel town.

As for Tene, a lot of their posts seem like things that scum would stop themselves from saying. There’s an unfiltered element to the way they’re expressing their thoughts that does not feel fabricated.

Scorpious Galron Eyes April.

Ignore mechanics: Is this viable to you?

[MathBlade]

I know that doesn’t make mechanical sense but Galron and April are in their scum meta so freakin much

honestly, i dont think you know what my scum meta is. You just have an idea of what it is. I can tell, because I actively change my meta to make others think something is my meta often, and this has like none of the signs of a flavor scum game and everything of a flavor town game.

Look at team mafia it’s so similar

Where's the similarity?

Team Mafia I had a scum partner who didn't do anything, a scum partner who actively played against me, and a townie who sees pushes as a personal thing rather than a game plan.


You also think you see how a scum game of mine looks, and act like that's how I play every game. I am aware of the times youve seen me as scum, and just like I did in that game I pocketed Titus, I was actively aware of how Titus read me normally, and I played that entire game to get that strong pocket.

I am a meta chameleon, and that's why I actively don't use meta because I know how much I can abuse it. I also know how to copy my town game. I think that Team Mafia game I knew exactly how to get specific others to town read me there, and I used a 1v1 encounter to split the game long term.

I think everything here is true here but you’re still scum. You have a “sticky” feeling when scum and not present when town. I am not good at wordsmithing but I also think it doesn’t really matter because much as I think you’re scum you’re a bad elim today.

[MathBlade]

April why frog over eyes?

I also hate how you didn’t answer this.

[MathBlade]

See I don’t like your argument

The way I remember you is you never making a mistake and being mean when I mess up

You’ve been wrong and not mean to me so it’s off.

That feels like a big excuse

You have been calling me wrong left and right too, so that's a pot calling the kettle black. Ever since I got in this game, you've been only "giving me a chance".

Why is it okay for you to do that kind of thing? For the most part, the only thing I've called you wrong on is your read on me, and that's because I know with 100% certainty it is.

I don't believe I've made mistakes this game, that's just not how I view mafia. being wrong is not a mistake.


My playstyle with other townies is I just kinda point out where I see flaws in their cases. I like the cases you're making, and think the duo of us is beneficial for finding scum. You have a certain perspective over the game since you're conf town, and I'm here on one of the sides. We actively see different parts of this game based on our sociological position.

So when I'm pointing out things I think are incorrect with your pushes, it's almost like a Peer Review type of thing, or like why authors need to have others look over their work because it's harder to see those things from the inside.

I think that's an incredibly beneficial thing to do, and if you can get to that level with another townie, that's how you get soul reads.

Our issue is we just butt heads instead of hug.

It’s okay because I have to. Otherwise you steam roll me.

It’s okay because you have a record of being one of the best townies in all of MS. Like > 80%

I feel like I have to fight against you no matter what.

Titus was obviously in her scum meta then you tried to steer the wagon away after agreeing.

When I talk with you it doesn’t really feel like peer review more like you’re trying to dissuade me to do certain things and you feel agenda y

I just say my thoughts on slots. I push in strong open ended to force people to react/take sides. I also flip flop constantly because as town, I got such a big imagination for what could be happening.


I was on the wrong wagon on a lot of end of days, but a lot of my mid day I have been correct, I just flip flop.

Like Nero vs VPB + Cape being a TvT+T, I think that says a lot about the way scum have been playing this game, and have actively been trying to let town eat each other alive.

So townies, we have to make sure we get the other townies to town read us correctly. Let's take our time this day, slow down the game.

Scum naturally speed the game up when it's in directions that they like, so that's something that scared me with that Frogster wagon, even with me on it. Granted, Tene/Scorp likely have 1 scum in it, and if Frog is scum, it does make sense they might bus, but still, I'd like to take the time.

Who’s rushing? Why are you saying slow down?

[MathBlade]

Psychologist inno + TA inno

So there isn't any combination with STD/April/DV/Galron based on Fire and Yeet Night actions.

There is if Galron is group scum who did the kill N1

[MathBlade]

Psychologist inno + TA inno

So there isn't any combination with STD/April/DV/Galron based on Fire and Yeet Night actions.

There is if Galron is group scum who did the kill N1

He can't. Yeet cleared Galron of being Groupscum.

Yeet's role said had the potential to make a night kill.

That’s inaccurate though

[MathBlade]

I’m happy considering Scorp today. I guess Frogster’s pop in doesn’t really make me confident in my previous townread there, nor does eyes’ play feel town.

As for Tene, a lot of their posts seem like things that scum would stop themselves from saying. There’s an unfiltered element to the way they’re expressing their thoughts that does not feel fabricated.

Scorpious Galron Eyes April.

Ignore mechanics: Is this viable to you?

No

Why not?

[MathBlade]

Yeet

has been found dead. He was a

Town 3-Shot Psychologist

Yeet

You are a

Town 3-Shot Psychologist

Each day you may talk in the game thread and vote on who to eliminate.

Three times during the game you may visit a player at night to investigate their ability to kill. Assuming no interference, you will be informed "PLAYERNAME is capable of killing.", "PLAYERNAME is not capable of killing or has already killed.", or "You got no result from investigating PLAYERNAME." at the end of the night. Players capable of killing are members of the

Mafia

other than

Traitors

,

Serial Killers

and

Vigilantes

who have not yet killed

You win when all threats to the town are dead, and at least 1 town aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here, please confirm your role and alignment via pm.

Yeet got “Galron is not capable of killing or already has killed”

This means Galron is town or traitor or group scum who killed N1

[MathBlade]

Yeet

has been found dead. He was a

Town 3-Shot Psychologist

Yeet

You are a

Town 3-Shot Psychologist

Each day you may talk in the game thread and vote on who to eliminate.

Three times during the game you may visit a player at night to investigate their ability to kill. Assuming no interference, you will be informed "PLAYERNAME is capable of killing.", "PLAYERNAME is not capable of killing or has already killed.", or "You got no result from investigating PLAYERNAME." at the end of the night. Players capable of killing are members of the

Mafia

other than

Traitors

,

Serial Killers

and

Vigilantes

who have not yet killed

You win when all threats to the town are dead, and at least 1 town aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here, please confirm your role and alignment via pm.

Yeet got “Galron is not capable of killing or already has killed”

This means Galron is town or traitor or group scum who killed N1

hmm, yeah, that looks possible. this changes a few things.

was Skitter in the game Night 1?

Sorry, a snarky way of proving my point, but I think asking me to ignore a fundamental part of viability when asking me about viability is a bit difficult

I don’t follow your point.

Mechanically my solution is possible.

I am asking if it makes sense by play

[MathBlade]

And yes skitter was in the game N1

[MathBlade]

What about the other three then?

[MathBlade]

What about the other three then?

Yes definitely

Then what if we do those first three?

Ignore April town or scum. If April is scum then in theory it’s gg?

We do eyes then Scorpious then Galron?

[MathBlade]

Can you remind me what makes Frogster town in your mind?

Mainly all of Frogster/Scorpious/Eyes can’t be scum together and scum didn’t pile on frog

[MathBlade]

You're all too noisy and I'm glad I managed to get this far, so I'll claim and let someone better at making connections interpret the info

I was a 4-shot follower. My results:

N1 STD (No Action)
N2 Nero (Protective)
N3 Deas (No Action)
N4 tene (No Action)

I was mainly trying to confirm slots that didn't look like they're going to get eliminated anytime soon. Unfortunately Nero got shot at night which is something I could not have controlled or predicted.

I also thought a goon was more likely to do the kill early on so I thought the STD result was a stronger clear than say that of Deas and Deas is still a bit stronger than tene, but I'll leave that to someone who knows better

Current readlist:

[*]Eyes without a face, [*]Nordrom/Mathblade
[*]Save The Dragons, [*]DeasVail, [*]tenebrousluminary
[*]Aristeia/April Ludgate, [*]fireisredsir, [*]skitter30/Galron, [*]Cape90
[*]Frogsterking, [*]Scorpious

So if Eyes is scum then he has to be reasonably sure that checks are the front are more accurate than later.

Means StD is probably town

I also don’t think scum puts two scum buddies in their bottom PoE

So I think Frog is town and Scorpious is scum
Or Scorpious is town and Frog is scum

[MathBlade]

ah yes, I remember now. Sorry again.

I think I would probably be comfortable going with scorpious or Eyes first. I would be interested in anyone wanting to weigh in on whether they think Eyes' role is possible to be town with the amount of town power that has already been confirmed.

Do you agree?

[MathBlade]

ok fine i really wanted to greed for another result, but i probably die here tonight anyway. and if everyone else has the same poe as me then we can solve easier, everyone is getting distracted. plus (i only realized this recently, cause I'm DUMB) if we flip a scum here and there's a traitor my role will be useless

im a traffic analyzer. so i can check if people have private communications.

n1: save the dragons, does NOT have communications
n2: titus, HAS communications
n3: April ludgate, does NOT have communications
n4: deasvail, does NOT have communications

so the only way dragons/april/deas are maf is if they're traitors. or, technically it could be deas+titus as the only groupscum and then like 3 traitors but wtf is that setup. i think we shouldn't ever elim in that group of 3 and should just hunt the groupscum instead. that's why im only considering maf outside of that group.

UNVOTE: so we can discuss and so that people smarter than me can setup spec

Deas Vail is unlikely to be scum.

[MathBlade]

@Math: You do realize that you have been shielding Frog for as long as you have been playing in this game, right? May I request you remind us of HEM's read on Frog in the masons thread?

I don’t remember I am too lazy and feeling sick and you’re probably scum so??

[MathBlade]

@Math: You do realize that you have been shielding Frog for as long as you have been playing in this game, right? May I request you remind us of HEM's read on Frog in the masons thread?

I don’t remember I am too lazy and feeling sick and you’re probably scum so??

What does this have to do with my question? And then people complain I am not participating enough! Sheesh!

It means I lack the spoons and wim to answer it.

[MathBlade]

Would you have been willing to do the effort if someone that was "probably not scum" asked instead of me?

I don’t think so.

[MathBlade]

Then why did you add that specific bit when you could have stopped at mentioning lazy and sick??

Because I have to provide a read for a valid prod dodge

[MathBlade]

Day 6-
Math coming off really awkward today
Frogster seems to be the preferred lim for people today, slot doesn't look good.
Scorpius is looking towny compared to when I played against them as scum.
April looks townie so far
Other slots look meh, lots of talk from my predecessor.
I'm not willing to vote for StD today because of my result. I'll look for context but we can do better.

I’d appreciate you fixing your impressions as I am literally conf town unless you want to argue I am fake claiming mason.

[MathBlade]

My stances are I am sicker than a dog and you’re very likely scum due to power creep and your opening is bad and seems coached

[MathBlade]

My stances are I am sicker than a dog and you’re very likely scum due to power creep and your opening is bad and seems coached

If my opening is coached why would I be pushing the Mason?

Coaching Is an odd accusation but If you're confirmed town then your play makes considerably more sense

It’s because you can’t know if my play is good or bad unless you’ve read
If you’ve read you’d know I am a mason

If you haven’t read why say I am bad?

[MathBlade]

Tene,Frog, traitor April..

Scorpious how do you think DV is scum here?

[MathBlade]

I think Eyes/Azumarill is probably town. That 4-shot Follower claim followed by Azumarill's entrance is townie to me right now.

But Azumarill, if scum, could have just come in well, so that's subject to change as we move forward, but liking what I'm seeing so far.

Still thinking Frog/Scorp, atm.

How do you explain town power?

[MathBlade]

I think Eyes/Azumarill is probably town. That 4-shot Follower claim followed by Azumarill's entrance is townie to me right now.

But Azumarill, if scum, could have just come in well, so that's subject to change as we move forward, but liking what I'm seeing so far.

Still thinking Frog/Scorp, atm.

How do you explain town power?

Follower sways very little. i see minimal between a 4-shot Follower and a Fruit Vendor or VT.

That's also how it could be scum, regardless, I think Azumarill is going to be giving more content than Frogster at this point in the game, and I think Frogster is likely just scum.

I disagree.

I think Scorpious or Eyes are a better vote

Please explain why your vote is better than DV’s?

I think you are traitor and defending Meg does little to improve that.

DV is conf town fypov or at least not group scum why not work DV?

[MathBlade]

Scorp's in a position where if they are scum, they're already compromised. Frog is stealthing out as scum, and night kills will begin to help shape the game against a Frogster fade.


@DV - Scorpious scum isn't getting away this game, can we go Frogster today?

Gives us time to read Azumarill more, and Scorpious can keep digging the trench they're in.

Why Frogger when it’s proven scum want to elim Frogger?

[MathBlade]

Nah I don’t think so.

I think this game has been a TvT shit fest

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Eyes

I don’t see how Eyes is town.

[MathBlade]

A scum team with A50/Titus knew exactly how to get me to come across poorly, and you can see it with the positioning.

Titus got me pocketed, and bookended the Malcolm and VPB wagons.

Eyes helped me get Malcolm Momentum rolling.

I was sandwiched by these two.

Keep in mind, I have been scum multiple times with A50, and have also caught A50Scum multiple times.

Which makes it bad you don’t realize this is A50 scum game

VOTE: Meg

We should not be doing Frog today.

[MathBlade]

It's possible Traitor Eyes is trying to tie TownTene to the scum team. Hmm, yeah, I think Eyes is most likely to be the traitor, so might be a Traitor Follower.

Highly unlikely mechanically.

[MathBlade]

Before Lee Sedol (from the first Alphago matches) the greatest player of his age was Lee Changho. He was known for a peaceful calculating style, letting people get what they want and still winning anyway. It wasn't until the advent of hyperaggressive players like Lee Sedol that he could be defeated.

---

Official Votecount 6.3

Frogsterking (1): tenebrousluminary

[E-4]

MegAzumarill (1): Frogsterking

[E-4]

tenebrousluminary (1): Scorpious

[E-4]

Not Voting (6): Save The Dragons, DeasVail, Galron, MegAzumarill, MathBlade, April Ludgate

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to achieve an elimination.

Day 6 will end in (expired on 2022-04-09 23:35:00).

click here for joined mod iso.

Tene Eyes April is way more likely to me considering this is possible elo and no smash hammer it’s unlikely Eyes is town.

The suggested solve from April doesn’t work for a possible elo.

We’re doing eyes. Eyes will flip group scum.

[MathBlade]

I don’t have to know the solve to know April’s solve is wrong so going to go for the most likely scum and call it a day.

[MathBlade]

I am really feeling Scorpio Eyes April + 1

[MathBlade]

Why am I scum?

You must have a great reason to be so certain!

That’s twice now that you’ve clapped back at me when mocking the game..

Why would town care?

Because tene is hunting you’re mocking the game

Which adds bloat to the game while you’re mocking it for being bloated

[MathBlade]

A scum team with A50/Titus knew exactly how to get me to come across poorly, and you can see it with the positioning.

Titus got me pocketed, and bookended the Malcolm and VPB wagons.

Eyes helped me get Malcolm Momentum rolling.

I was sandwiched by these two.

Keep in mind, I have been scum multiple times with A50, and have also caught A50Scum multiple times.

Which makes it bad you don’t realize this is A50 scum game

VOTE: Meg

We should not be doing Frog today.

You actively not read anything?

I specifically called this out as Eyes scum.

I read it. It feels like you showboating.

If you feel Eyes is scum or Scorpious scum you should be cooperating with me and DV who are not scum but instead you’re cooperating with the people you scumread.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: unvote

I saw enchant’s post. Getting a mod as Enchant is not a player

[MathBlade]

Perfect mafia win.

Good prediction.

defeatism often reads to meas scummy,not that I dont feel your frustration, but I've been "you" so many times and you are "sounding" caught as you "wear down"

pedit-I accept that

Why is defeatism Townie to you now Scorpious?

[MathBlade]

You can push Frog after I die April.

[MathBlade]

UNVOTE: Scorpious
VOTE: Frogsterking

I think the main thing that has been holding me back from voting here is a ridiculous sense of stubbornness, which is probably not actually a very good reason.

Uhm this is possibly elo and you’re swapping to a wagon that has to have at least a scum in tene/Scorpious and with your top scumread?

Please back to Scorpious or Unvote.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Meg

Let’s gooooo!!!

[MathBlade]

You're all too noisy and I'm glad I managed to get this far, so I'll claim and let someone better at making connections interpret the info

I was a 4-shot follower. My results:

N1 STD (No Action)
N2 Nero (Protective)
N3 Deas (No Action)
N4 tene (No Action)

I was mainly trying to confirm slots that didn't look like they're going to get eliminated anytime soon. Unfortunately Nero got shot at night which is something I could not have controlled or predicted.

I also thought a goon was more likely to do the kill early on so I thought the STD result was a stronger clear than say that of Deas and Deas is still a bit stronger than tene, but I'll leave that to someone who knows better

Current readlist:

[*]Eyes without a face, [*]Nordrom/Mathblade
[*]Save The Dragons, [*]DeasVail, [*]tenebrousluminary
[*]Aristeia/April Ludgate, [*]fireisredsir, [*]skitter30/Galron, [*]Cape90
[*]Frogsterking, [*]Scorpious

Remember if eyes is scum this is invalid
If eyes is town then of the living players…

[MathBlade]

Each car must be moved the full number of spaces if possible, or as far as possible if they cannot move the full amount. If there is a legal move for a car, the player must move it. But they may move a car strategically so it is blocked by other cars and can’t move the full amount.

---

Official Votecount 6.4

Frogsterking (3): tenebrousluminary, April Ludgate, Scorpious

[E-2]

MegAzumarill (1): Frogsterking
Scorpious (1): DeasVail

Not Voting (4): Save The Dragons, Galron, MegAzumarill, MathBlade

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to achieve an elimination.

Day 6 will end in (expired on 2022-04-09 23:35:00).

click here for joined mod iso.

Frog, scorpio, and Galron are the only possible scum PRs. (Galron is a less chance because Galron would have to do the N1 kill)

There’s likely three group scum left and a traitor.

Eyes flip if scum (as it should be) ironically confirms StD/Deas mostly town VT and the likely scum if any in that list is tene

Tene Scorpio Eyes April is likely it or mostly it.

Tene/Scorpio could be TvS/SvT but has a scum in it.

If Eyes is town then StD/DV are conf VT or goon

So then StD and DV plus me if I live should drive tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

Man sorry April and Ari

I think being told no on Galron and Skitter threw me for a loop

[MathBlade]

Gg all

[MathBlade]

Can release mason PT.

[MathBlade]

Save The Dragons, Mafia Bulletproof Traitor
---
April Ludgate, Vanilla Townie

i am shocked

SHOCKED I TELL YOU

i was 1000000% sure ari was the traitor and that she was repeatedly softing to me

That makes two of us. Well not softing to me but yeah

Man I hate I couldn’t have had skitter or Galron

I even pointed out their tells

[MathBlade]

wp all! tough call at the end there, i don't think it was likely we were going to lim dwlee/galron. i would have gone with scorp as well (after frog, at least)

Yeah short of me demanding Galron/Dwlee which I probably want April/Ari’s slots head

It kinda made me sad like I don’t see how I could have been more clear about Galron/Skitter scum

[MathBlade]

Also i want to apologize.

I was sleepy, opened this thread and believed i playing here, thus answered on first post i saw.

Then i saw name of topic and was like "Bruh". I hope it didn't damage gaming so much.

I don’t think so since Mizzy keeps dead thread’s spoiler free

If they weren’t or it was known Mizzy spoils then it woulda been damaging

[MathBlade]

Threads.

Autocorrect grammar fail

[MathBlade]

gg scumbutts. Town's biggest mistake this game was stubbornness, and yall deserved the win given the setup.

Thanks for modding Mizzy and worst!

Tbh it’s my lack of

I should have just kept insisting on Galron but I was trying to be cooperative

Then not being allowed to cooperate made me insist on Titus

Then I should have used that clout to demand Galron.

I messed up by trying to be good town

[MathBlade]

Yeah I am sorry I wasn’t more forceful

[MathBlade]

gg scumbutts. Town's biggest mistake this game was stubbornness, and yall deserved the win given the setup.

Thanks for modding Mizzy and worst!

Tbh it’s my lack of

I should have just kept insisting on Galron but I was trying to be cooperative

Then not being allowed to cooperate made me insist on Titus

Then I should have used that clout to demand Galron.

I messed up by trying to be good town

I think a big issue was we just didn’t consider that the other of us could be right as well because you kept hard pushing me as being wrong when I was pushing scumFrog correctly the last 4 day phases.

I mean fair. I thought it was elo based on thread and you were telling scum they would win if they elimmed Frogger and you seemed way too happy for an elo so I was pretty much never willing to do Frogger at that point.

[MathBlade]

I feel the game was mechanically very skewed against scum as scum shot PRs every single night - Mason, Doctor, Psych, TA, Mason, Vig and still barely won with a [3/7 cleared pool] and very little room to breathe.

this is in addition to the fact that both investigatives hit false negatives on night 1. i think in majority of other scenarios, this game is won for town via power roles.

I agree and I think it’s a symptom of NRG.

The main question I would ask is how do scum win here, what is their path to victory?

[MathBlade]

With a few well placed bullets, the

mafia

win.

The winners are

Frogsterking,

Mafia Goon

Dwlee99,

Mafia Informed Neighbor

Save The Dragons,

Mafia Bulletproof Traitor

along with the deceased

Titus,

Mafia 2-Shot Alien

MegAzumarill,

Mafia 4-Shot Combined Follower Gunsmith

The remaining members of the town die in the endgame.

DeasVail,

Vanilla Townie

April Ludgate,

Vanilla Townie

tenebrousluminary

Vanilla Townie

They join

GeneralWu,

Vanilla Townie

humaneatingmonkey,

Town Mason

MalcolmTucker,

Vanilla Townie

Yeet,

Town 3-Shot Psychologist

VP Baltar,

Town Ascetic Neighbor

Nero Cain,

Town Indecisive Doctor Neighbor

Enchant,

Town 2-Shot Vigilante

Cape90,

Town Neighbor

fireisredsir,

Town Traffic Analyst

MathBlade,

Town Mason

Scorpious,

Vanilla Townie

Let’s treat the traitor as group scum for simplicity first

14 v 5.
12 v 5
10 v 5
8 v 5
6 v 5
4 v 5

Scum need 6 miselims to win.
Town had 2 masons, psychologist, doctor, TA, vig << All are forced kills for a viable elo.
One could argue ascetic might be (but again I am being generous)

This means scum have to kill a PR on N1 with no info for a fair shot at Elo.

They got lucky/were good the wagons were masons but I wouldn’t approve the setup.

[MathBlade]

i mean like, in this game, scum played well in a sense that:

(1) we outed 3 major power roles on day 1
(2) used our one and only blocking role to block the vigilante, and then that vigilante shot the bulletproof traitor
(3) both investigatives hit a false inno on n1
(4) scum shot a power role each and every night

and it STILL resulted in a 7p yelo where 3 people were confirmed not groupscum. like. what. i'm sorry but like what is scum supposed to *do* here.

That’s my point

[MathBlade]

I don’t think NPR does enough how does scum win? Yes scum won here but imho if they didn’t have the stellar players they had they lose.

I just wish I would have stuck with Skitter D1

[MathBlade]

I do have some comments here (since I was pinged).

The first and most important is that from my skim here there are multiple people saying the setup was townsided and at least one person saying the setup was slightly scumsided, and also multiple people saying it was balanced. I see this as generally at least not a bad sign taken in aggregate, but also it makes it difficult to actually take a real lesson away from the game as the reviewer other than "yeah, seems like a reasonably good job". Of course it's not people's jobs to make that possible, people can say whatever they want and of course opinions will differ. And it is my job as an NRG member (and, well, the listmod) if I'm looking at feedback to sift through it and figure out what it means.

Regarding this actual run of the game: yes, lots of things went right for scum and the game was close. And also I haven't read the whole game ofc so feel free to correct me but:

and it STILL resulted in a 7p yelo where 3 people were confirmed not groupscum. like. what. i'm sorry but like what is scum supposed to *do* here.

This is a favorable situation for scum; 7p yelo with 3 people confirmed not-groupscum (assuming from what people have said that one of those 3 was the traitor) leaves 4 people, 2 town 2 mafia, where the town has to lim both mafia before limming either of the town. That's EV of 1/6 for town. So yeah, scum played well and ended up in a great position as a result.

It's easy to point to things that went well for scum, but there are also things that went poorly for them. Yes, scum managed to NK a PR every night, but town also managed to avoid miseliminating a PR every single day. From the sound of things, scum played well, but the town also generally played above-average, or at least it wasn't one of those games where the town caved in on itself and scum just swooped in to win it. The arguably-strongest PR lived until night 5 and managed to out four results.

Regarding balance in general: I think there's still fundamentally an effect where balancing a game on this site simply requires more town power than people would expect. Large games make things harder to judge (and consequently harder to balance) for lots of reasons (less experience balancing them, more variables, more inherent swing, etc). In a large game with lots of scum, ultimately all it takes is one scum playing really well to slip through the cracks and win, and with so many scum in the game that becomes pretty likely. I really don't know how close to 50-50 you'd get if you ran this setup 100 times but I don't think it'd be

too

bad.

Regarding design patterns: lots of people complain about things like hard innos/hard guilties and yeah, they are intrinsically somewhat swingy and in some ways unfun if you're caught on the wrong side of things. But in practice there are just very few ways to balance a game that don't involve giving town

something

quite powerful, and there is not anything nearly as strong as, in some form, hard information. There have been cases (at least one i remember) recently of setup designers/reviewers probably giving too much bulk of this to towns in design processes, so I think it is probably something NRG members are thinking about more in general lately, but I don't think 3 hard inno roles in a 19 player setup is anywhere close to egregious. Especially since there isn't a single other PR in this setup whose claim is likely to elicit a response of "yeah, this is definitely real".

There’s 6 hard innos not three

That’s the issue