Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)

[Darox]

So far my reread has informed me that the person I replaced has claimed their lover.

Up to page 23, will post more soon.

[Darox]

First impressions from my reread put Crazy as most scummy.

I'll write up about Crazy as well as some other people when I get time.

In the mean time feel free to ask me questions.

[Darox]

Darox, I would like very much for you to paraphrase your daytalk.

I would be more than willing to do this once my lover has agreed to it and someone I don't think is scum wants to know.

[Darox]

Deadline is painful.

Reading Crazy again, his plan does suggest that only a town would come up with it. I dislike his play throughout the game immensely, but his bad play with his 'super secret scum tell' is in his favor.

What I don't like is that OpposedForce is going to be lynched apparently because there is no one better and that he suspects Crazy, who has said some pretty suspicious things throughout the game.

More reading while I look back to see who else appears scummy.

[Darox]

Alabaska J/kloud *

dybeck

*:

[Darox]

/facepalm

In other news, Darox is unable to tell the difference between preview and submit.

I am about to write up something on Alabaska and kloud. Please hold.

[Darox]

Kloud/Dybeck:

Dybeck

doesn't get involved at all at the start except to oppose any claim. Responds negatively to Crazy questioning his reasons for opposing it.

Proceeds to not post for five days.

No mention of either the Crazy or Ice wagons except that he would vote Crazy because of Crazy's self vote.

Mod makes the point that Dybeck has requested for replacement on Aug 10.

Votes SSF for his attack on icemanE for using "I think he's scum." Continues to ignore anything else happening in the game. Gets a FoS from iceman here and does respond to it, but seems more interested in showing that his actions were not scummy, rather than showing that SSF deserved a vote.

Manages a heroic three posts on Aug 10, almost half of his total number of posts in the game so far. Seems strange after he had just requested replacement.

Reminds the mod that he wishes to be replaced Aug 12.

Comes out with a statement that the town is lazy and is tunneling in, but provides no alternatives to an iceman/firestarter lynch.
Follows up on this by saying that the town should delay the lynch. Seems to be trying to break up the iceman lynch without causing a stir. Furthers attempts to break down the iceman lynch by encouraging people to get off it and look in other directions, as well as requesting that it be delayed and the deadline extended to help accommodate this.

After an epic 6 posts since asking a second time for replacement, amounting again to nearly half of his total posts in the game, he is then replaced by kloud.

---

Kloud

posts a paraphrased version of lover daytalk, then does nothing as he reads up on the thread.

Then proceeds to drop a huge case on pwnz. Picks on him for low posting when he is hardly the worst offender, and all in all doesn't really have that strong a case on him. Basically criticizes him for "Bloodthirstiness" and buddying with iceman for his calling of crazy/farside pair. Then after all that, does nothing further than put two FoS's on pwnz, stating he wants to look at some other people before placing a vote. Seems unusual that he decided to post this in-depth analysis but had not decided who he thought was most worthy of a vote. Seemingly picks pwnz out at random because of this.

Following this goes on to say that he has plans to drop similar cases on other lurkers. Doesn't seem to have any real suspicions on people, but rather is picking an easy group of people, 'lurkers', and writing up cases against them.

---

As for Alabaska J, I can't see too much of note within his posts except after kloud replaces in, where he criticizes kloud for posting his case on pwnz, saying 'we should have talked this over'. Why would you need to discuss before releasing your suspicions on a person? Trying to keep your buddy in line so he doesn't incriminate the pair of you?

Vote: Kloud1516

[Darox]

Oh, BM, I abuse the preview button a lot. I wanted to see how the font size looked.

Right now I'm considering writing down the paraphrased version of our daytalk thread. OF hasn't posted anywhere for a week now, so I don't think he will show up to give his opinion on it before the deadline.

[Darox]

Actually what she just did was stop OF from being the deadline lynch.

[Darox]

Speaking of which, votecount hasn't included my vote.

Mod:

I voted kloud1516 on the last page.

Fixed. - Mod

[Darox]

I understand the deadline rules completely and know that this will mean that kloud is lynched.

He is on four votes.

I voted him on the last page.

[Darox]

I think so armlx. He was at a higher level of votes than OF, so he should still be the deadline lynch until someone gets one more vote than him.

[Darox]

Yeah, it was a good plan, it just managed to miss me unvoting.

[Darox]

EBWOP: Voting.

[Darox]

RR + sekinj have swayed me. That is an incredible amount of flip-flop.

unvote; Vote Cerebus

Oh the irony.

[Darox]

Whenever I read Crazy or KoC's posts, I immediately think that these guys are acting scummy as hell. Then I think, well, they are almost certainly town due to Crazy's stupid quicktopic plan, so we probably shouldn't lynch them. But I shouldn't have to think this. I'm liking them less and less as time goes on.

[Darox]

Whats the vote count look like?

[Darox]

Unvote, vote: Cephrir

Adel makes a compelling point.

[Darox]

Cephrir is voting kloud, but aside from that it looks correct.

[Darox]

this is where I think the votecount is.

kloud1516 (2)

- ThAdmiral, Erratus Apathos, Cephrir
*

cerebus3 (7)

- SleepyPanda, Raging Rabbit, sekinj, charter, Knight of Cydonia, neko2086, Crazy

Crazy (1)

- OpposedForce

sekinj(2)

- Adel, Darox

Knight of Cydonia (1)

- pwnz

Alabaska J (1)

-


Not Voting (8) - , DarlaBlueEyes, cerebus3, WaltWishbone, kloud1516, Alabaska J, Battle Mage, Harvey Pew

Twelve

votes to lynch.

Corrected and reposted on this page.

[Darox]

Darox since you are online, and I can't tell how seriously you are paying attention, would you mind posting what all of the lover pairing are?

From memory:

Kloud/Alabaska
Crazy/KoC
Adel/Pwnz
ThAdmiral/Darla
OF/Darox
Cephrir/Charter
SleepyPanda/Armlx
sekinj/neko
RagingRabbit/WWB
Harvey/Cerebus
Erratus/BM

I'll go check to make sure.

[Darox]

Oh, whoops.
I just moved Cephrirs vote over. I also forgot to change the number of votes kloud had.

Cephrir should be on two votes, not sekinj.

[Darox]

That puts kloud on five and cerebus still on seven.

Rereading the cerebus/harvey case, but so far I like the kloud/alabaska case more.

[Darox]

Read up, still like kloud more as the lynch than cerebus.

Unvote, Vote: kloud1516

Two more votes until he becomes the deadline lynch, we can do it.

[Darox]

I still like Cephrir.

Has anyone but RR posted a case on cerebus/Harvey?

[Darox]

I'm tempted to vote for OF just to mess with Adel and make her think I am following her, but no, I am posting a rundown on Cephrir in the near future.

[Darox]

Rundown of Cephrir's posts in isolation.

1: Random Vote. Opposes massclaim
2: Agrees with iceman, who says that massclaiming would cause moral dilemmas if one partner is acting real scummy and one partner is acting protown. Goes on to add that a scummy player would somehow receive less attention through the virtue of being associated with a pro town player. (

Disagree with this

)
3: "Works for me" in response to Crazy's turnaround on the massclaim business.
4: Defends against the OF wagon. Also tries to end massclaim talk.
5: Very neutral stance on Crazy's attack against iceman for pretending to see the scumtell. Disputes the validity of one of Crazy's quotes but states that it is 'fishy' anyway. (

Don't like this, seems to minimize the case while also leaving the option for a jump later

)
6: Decides that iceman is worth a vote, but that '[his] wagon is growing a little too fast' IcemanE was at 5/13 votes at this point in time. Votes for Pwnz instead with no reason given.
7: Quickly after post #6, clarifies that the IcemanE wagon wasn't really that fast, but that Pwnz' vote 'hop' (

His first vote in the game

) was somehow more scummy.
8: After the collapse of Crazy's tell, (

Before he reveals it

) sticks a vote on Crazy.
9: Double post with #8, goes on to say Crazy's vote against charter makes him happy about his vote.
10: Made after Crazy reveals his tell. Ceph supports the wagon despite the fast growth. Contradicts position in #6. States that it is a good wagon for 'the second most obvious reason' but never explains what this reason is. (

Giving the Crazy wagon an extra push without providing any real reason too.

)
11: Disagrees with Charters reasons why Crazy's massclaim push is scummy. Mischaracterizes Crazy's attacks against Iceman, then goes on to state scum are no more likely than townies to try and fake knowledge of the tell. (

False

) Goes on to say that there is no way that Crazy was lying about his scumtell.
12: Still doesn't understand how faking knowledge of the tell would be a scumtell. Gives the reason for still voting Crazy as liking the conversation generated by it, but then goes on to say that he thinks Crazy has acted scummy, but not as scummy as pwnz. Still doesn't believe Crazy made up his tell, and agrees with Iceman that Crazy is likely scum.
13: Clarifies that he would be voting for pwnz if he didn't like the conversation generated by his vote. (

Dislike this. The conversation had nothing to do with pwnz, who seems to be the person you find most scummy according to these posts, so why were you on the Crazy wagon instead of attacking pwnz?

)
14: Decides that RR is right about Crazy's tell and thus that Crazy is town. Unvotes. Goes on to say that Crazy's breakdown and self vote is a null tell, but also that Charter (

Who is attacking Crazy

) is right. What just happened here?
15: Quotes Neko's reasons then jumps on the firestarter wagon, putting him at 6 votes. Contradicts his position in #6 again.
16: Quotes Adel's case on Iceman, then votes him despite saying 'he's been pretty protown otherwise' and doesn't provide any other reasons why he believes iceman to be scum. (

I really don't like this, it seems like a half hearted bus attempt that he can take back if Iceman don't go down.

)
17: After several more votes have been laid down and a much more expanded case from Adel, he changes his tune and jumps down hard on Iceman. Calls for sekinj to vote for Iceman.
18: Further reiterates desire to hang Iceman. Tries to make himself look less like a follower by stating Adel had no impact on his vote.
19: This post and #20 make no sense. Pwnz says something to wolframn, Cephrir replies to pwnz as if pwnz was talking to him, then pwnz replies to Cephrir as if he was wolframn. Other than that, Ceph is busy jumping up and down on Iceman, with an added kick in Firestarters direction.
20: See #19
21: Criticizes the deadline rule and chides Walt for overreacting.
22: States that the Crazy wagon was not forgotten and seems to suggest that it will be reborn if ice/op are lynched or if they stop being wagoned.
23: Doesn't want the Iceman lynch to stop, and says 'If we don't do it now we would just do it later' (

Bad logic here

) Also FoS's everyone voting for Crazy, which seems to contradict #22.
24: Mentions setting up of mislynches, decides that it is still scummy in a multiball game, but that somehow it is not scummy in this particular instance.
25: More jumping on Icemans head.
26: Suspects dybeck, still not supportive of massclaim.
27: Retracts #26, stating he did not notice Ice/Penguins lynch.
28: Opposes massclaim some more, and sets himself up to allow him to cast suspicion on Adel if her reasons are not identical to Cephrir's reasons. Disagrees with Crazy's OF case.
29: Disagrees with Adel's idea that we should focus on trying to find the remaining wolves rather than mafia.
30: Continues to disagree with Crazy's OF case.
31: Decides that Adel's scumtell makes sense, but that it won't show anything past day one. Goes along with the massclaim, contradicts position in #2
32: Explains his shift in opinion by stating that massclaim would let them use Adels tell, even though it had been stated by Adel and others that the tell was not that effective. Also doesn't explain the contradiction to his position in #2, Adel's tell does nothing to stop this.
33: Claims lover with Charter
34: Asks for an explanation to Crazy's scum list. Ceph/charter is listed as second most scummy.
35: Points out obvious flaw in KoC's speculations about ThAdmiral fakeclaiming.
36: States that pwnz has been bandwagoning and nothing else in response to lovers question of why pwnz is scummy.
37: Elaborates what he thought the scumtell was, that scum would buddy with their entire group rather than just lovers. Claims forgetfulness over the issue.
38: Sarcastic reply to KoC's suspicions of Adel.
39: Cephrir has heard of WIFOM.
40: Agrees with klouds case on pwnz. (

Not surprising given previous attacks on pwnz

) Also tries to paint kloud as protown, but throws in some suspicion by calling it a possible bussing attempt.
41: Reveals what Charter believed the scumtell was. Further reiterates why he didn't agree with Crazy's case on OF.
42: LA post.
43: Cephrir has been prodded.
44: Cephrir may not be able to do much this week.
45: Cephrir does not like the deadline. States he would vote either cerebus or kloud. Seems to contradict #40 where he agreed with kloud.
46: Cephrir insults Crazy because he just don't get it.
47: Thinks Alabaska might be bussing but decides bussing is stupid. States he was buddying up with dybeck but completely ignores the fact alabaska and dybeck are lovers. Likes klouds input. States that HP's refusal to acknowledge RR's sensible case is somehow a towntell (

Wait, what? How is failing to address logical points against you and deciding to ignore them a town tell?

) Concludes that he would vote kloud at deadline.
48: Notices that sekinj's post illustrates reasons why cerebus is scummy.
49: Denies accusations of bandwagon hopping, citing his lack of a vote. Goes on further and decides in light of Panda's comments on sekinj's case that kloud is scummier, and votes him.
50: Sarcastic reply to Adel's vote against him. Claims that pursuing someone that isn't cerebus or kloud is anti town. Also calls Adel a hypocrite for calling for people to place relevant votes then voting for Cephrir.
51: Cephrir does not get why people would find him scummy.
52: Cephrir thinks the only thing remotely scummy he has done is disagree with charter, and that this is not a tell. (

This is what Adel's scum tell was all about, distancing and disagreeing with your lover, and Cephrir supported a massclaim in order to use Adel's scumtell.

)
53: Cephrir doesn't know why people are voting for him.
54: Calls for people to make a relevant vote, but manages to miss Cerebus and Harvey completely.
55: Realizes that the deadline has pasted and that #54 was too late.
56: Cephrir wants Darox to elaborate.
57: Cephrir accuses Darox of ignoring Crazy, stating that he had a valid point. Then goes on to state that Crazy's OF case is still worthless. Goes on to say that he is no longer suspicious of Adel's vote hop because she has stated that it was a vote hop.
58: Cephrir continues to show why Crazy's OF case fails.

[Darox]

I nearly forgot my vote.

Vote Cephrir

I don't think Charter read through it properly, or he decided to only respond to part of it.

[Darox]

Daytalk summary

08-03
1: Mod opens the Daytalk thread

08-04
2: Raffles says hi

3: Opposed Force says hi

08-10
4: Wolf replaces in and says hi

08-13
5: Opposed says hi and mentions personal issues that are getting in the way of his reread, but he promises to discuss his views when he is done.

6: Opposed lists the people he finds suspicious.
Crazy and farside are at the top. He cites Crazys buddying with Adel, and Crazy's faulty logic in calling iceman scummy. He thinks the scumtell Crazy had was made up after Adel proved him wrong in order to try and survive for longer. He also mentions crazy's appeal to emotion and how in his experience this is almost always done by scum. He also notes how Crazy jumped on the iceman wagon and how this has shifted the spotlight away from him.
Iceman and Orangepenguin are next. He cites icemans hypocrisy in calling RR out for thinking like scum when he was doing the same thing. He goes on to say that fire had misinterpreted RR's post on Crazy & Farside and that he was trying to shift the spotlight from iceman to RR. He also mentions that iceman had said that unless Crazy had received a second message his argument if useless, but all townies had received a second message and if Iceman was town he should know that.
The final person listed is Charter & (?). OF states he doesn't really have a big case on him and that he's not really that scummy but some of his points seem to be oppressive and sometimes WIFOMish or otherwise faultly. Makes a note to keep an eye on charter.

08-14
7: The mod makes it official that wolf replaces raffles.

8: Wolf says he can see the points against crazy and that he is kind of seeing the points against ice/penguin. He mentions the difficulty of forming solid opinions when replacing in. He does however think Ice just got stuck with a bad partner.
In regards to charter wolf states he tries very hard to scum hunt but always seems scum to wolf, even when he is town.
He also notes that Neko, Cerb, and RR all voted for Fire in quick succession and ponders whether they are a scum group defending rabbit.

9: OF agrees that it can be hard to get solid reads on players when replacing in and agrees with wolf that fires actions do seem like a bad townie mistake, but that the actions of iceman have convinced him that they are scum.
Disputes wolf's ideas of Neko, Cerb, and RR being part of a scum team, citing his previous bandwagon gaining 3 votes from different people in quick succession.
Finally asks what wolf thinks about Adel and her scum tell, and if he thinks Adel is trying to make an easy scum getaway.

10: Wolf states he didn't really get the scum tell business, which is why he stayed semi quiet on the matter. He goes on to say that Adel seems to be making good posts and scumhunting, but also thinks this could just be because she is good at manipulating the town.
Wolf goes on to make a note of Neko and cere both jumping in to agree with Adel then proceed to stay quiet, perhaps because they thought they could easily slip in with an Iceman lynch which seems inevitable.

11: OF agrees with Wolfs comments on Adel, saying he didn't really understand the scumtell and that this lead him to be bandwagoned, and he thought there was some scum on his wagon. He notes that Adel has so far looked like a paragon of townieness and her points are interesting and well perceived, but that if she is playing a gambit with the scumtell that she is in a good position to manipulate the town with ease.
Further adds that Wolfs points on neko and cerb are interesting, and that upon further investigation that cerb seemed to jump onto the two most influential bandwagons (crazy and firestarter) along with neko who did the same.
He also makes the note that both of them seem to be lurking and that they should be pressured a bit tomorrow, but that he would be focusing on Crazy to see if he would drop any more scumtells.

08-15
12: Wolf agrees about the idea to pressure neko and cerb as well as OF pressuring Crazy, and states it might be easier to do something about Crazy when/if iceman flips town, because of how hard crazy pushed icemans lynch.

13: Wolf comments on Darla's L-1 vote, doesn't like this because he still thinks iceman is town.

08-16
14: OF doesn't like the votes that have been put on Darla, saying that people are misinterpreting it as scummy when it could easily have been a town move. Doesn't like the way Adel jumped off iceman to pounce on Darla to start a new wagon.
Also mentions that Crazy is providing scummy reasons why Iceman should be lynched and is just hiding in the wagon to get iceman lynched instead of himself.

15: Wolf says he thought the way darla did it seemed pretty scummy and that if she had really lost her post she could have found it easily.

08-18
16: OF is pleased that Ice/penguin flipped werewolf, and states that at this point he is inclined to go after Adel or crazy. Goes on to say he doesn't like Adel's leading the town where ever she wants and he doesn't like Crazys lack of scumhunting, his following of the crowd, and generally staying out of the focus.

17: OF asks if wolf wants to support a massclaim.

18: Wolf replies that he is fine with a massclaim.

19: Wolf apologizes for throwing their names out there so soon.

08-19
20: OF states that the early claim is fine, and doesn't think claiming early is that big a deal.

08-22
21: OF states that he firmly believes Crazy is dirty rotten scum. He cites Crazy's blatant buddying with Adel, following her votes, and that his case on OF is crap. Doesn't think Crazy is contributing anything to the town at all. Still doesn't like how Crazy managed to escape the spotlight when iceman got lynched.

08-23
22: OF has a change of heart, and begins thinking he might be wrong about Crazy. He thinks he may have been pushing a little bit too hard and getting carried away, and that some of what crazy/KoC has said may be valid. He still doesn't like Crazy's buddying but will reread everything and come to a more balanced conclusion.

08-26
23: Mod announces that Darox has replaced wolf

24: Darox says he is still reading through the thread, and that so far Crazy looks like scum.

08-27
25: Darox states he has fully read through the thread, and has come to the conclusion that Crazy is more likely a dumb townie. He is not convinced 100% that he is not a mafia, but he thinks Crazys actions especially related to the tell, while dumb, were not things scum would ever do.

[Darox]

Just read Crazy's scumtell plan and the subsequent reaction of Iceman.

[Darox]

Knowing a scumtell has nothing to do with alignment.

Holy crap, you mean I didn't know what you were talking about? Okay, so now I know nothing about your alignment.

Then it appears that I have a scumtell of my own, then, the one that I've been referring to this whole time. That coincidentally also would work better without a mass-claim and is something that scum would have no idea of. I suggest keeping me alive until Day 3/4 at least so I can reveal what it is. K? If I don't have anything then, you can lynch me. Really, what's the harm in this unless you're scum?

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

Don't answer that now.

What doesn't make any sense to me is that Crazy thinks that claiming how many PMs from the mod you got in your inbox would reveal scum after 3 or 4 game days.

I was expecting after 3 or 4 days that everyone would post all their daytalk... I didn't see anything in the rules against that.

Iceman attacked Crazy because "You can't have gotten something extra in your role PM" and "Unless you got a second message telling you about this that I missed"

All the original towns people did get a second message to give them daytalk threads, and it this pretty much outed iceman and confirmed crazy.

[Darox]

11: Disagrees with Charters reasons why Crazy's massclaim push is scummy. Mischaracterizes Crazy's attacks against Iceman, then goes on to state scum are no more likely than townies to try and fake knowledge of the tell. (False) Goes on to say that there is no way that Crazy was lying about his scumtell.

Unless you want to tell me how that's mischaracterization, this point does not exist. And I still believe that scum weren't more likely to pretend to know the tell, because either way it's just dumb.

Scum would be more inclined to pretend to know the tell because it makes them look like town, especially after Crazy mentioned that only townie players would know what the tell is.

As for mischaracterizing Crazy's case, you are partially right. You note that Iceman seemingly knowing a different scumtell to Crazy is not a scumtell, and this was Crazy's initial case against Iceman. However, you then say he was still voting Iceman up until his selfvote, for the same reason as above. This is incorrect. Crazy had moved his vote around before returning it to Iceman because Iceman clearly did not have a clue what Crazy's scumtell was even after he had revealed it. The only way he could not have any idea about this would be if he was scum. THAT was Crazy's case. The way you respond to Crazy's case, you make it seem flawed and that Iceman is not suspicious, for all the wrong reasons.

--

12: Still doesn't understand how faking knowledge of the tell would be a scumtell. Gives the reason for still voting Crazy as liking the conversation generated by it, but then goes on to say that he thinks Crazy has acted scummy, but not as scummy as pwnz. Still doesn't believe Crazy made up his tell, and agrees with Iceman that Crazy is likely scum.

Show me where I said Crazy was likely scum. I said I didn't think so as much as Iceman seemed to, which really doesn't imply anything about quantity except that it was less than 100%.

I'm not going to show you where you said Crazy was likely scum in this post because I never said that. I said that you had agreed with Iceman who himself stated that Crazy was likely scum and had stated that Crazy had performed scummy actions.

And I do find his actions suspicious as well
[...]

1. He has been acting incredibly scummy, setting the tell business aside.
2. I don't believe the "he either made up the tell, or he's town" argument is sound.

I pretty much agree. Except I'm not as certain of Crazy being scum as Iceman sounds.

Not being as certain as iceman doesn't change the fact you agreed with him that Crazy was acting scummy, and that you thought the "he either made up the tell, or he's town" argument was flawed. As you had stated in other posts that you were certain Crazy was not making up his tell, which according to the statement would make Crazy town, your disagreement with this strongly suggests you thought Crazy was scum.

--

13: Clarifies that he would be voting for pwnz if he didn't like the conversation generated by his vote. (Dislike this. The conversation had nothing to do with pwnz, who seems to be the person you find most scummy according to these posts, so why were you on the Crazy wagon instead of attacking pwnz?)

Because pressure. I don't see how you could possibly not get that.

If you didn't actually think Crazy was very scummy as you seemed to imply in your response above, why were you pressuring him instead of pwnz, who you did found scummy? What could a townsperson gain from pressuring someone else they found to be town instead of someone they found scummy?

--

14: Decides that RR is right about Crazy's tell and thus that Crazy is town. Unvotes. Goes on to say that Crazy's breakdown and self vote is a null tell, but also that Charter (Who is attacking Crazy) is right. What just happened here?

His being right and Crazy being scum were not the same thing.

Wait, What?

Lets have a look at that quote again.

Cephrir & Iceman - You claim that Crazy believed his daytalk tell was valid, but is still scum. But scum have their own daytalk forum, and thus scum-Crazy would

know

townies aren't the only ones with daytalk and thus

know

his scumtell isn't valid. I'd like you to explain how this is possible.

Huh. Actually, you're right. Score one for logic.

Unvote

.

RR's entire point was that if Crazy was telling the truth about his scumtell plan, it made him town. You agreed with RR, then unvoted Crazy. You have stated before that you believed that Crazy was definitely telling the truth about his scumtell. How does this NOT show that you thought Crazy was town?

--

16: Quotes Adel's case on Iceman, then votes him despite saying 'he's been pretty protown otherwise' and doesn't provide any other reasons why he believes iceman to be scum. (I really don't like this, it seems like a half hearted bus attempt that he can take back if Iceman don't go down.)

Nah, not really. Adel's case was pretty damn condemning.

So why did you give yourself an out by saying you thought Iceman seemed pretty protown otherwise?

--

17: After several more votes have been laid down and a much more expanded case from Adel, he changes his tune and jumps down hard on Iceman. Calls for sekinj to vote for Iceman.

There was no change.

No change? Ho ho ho.

Things that had happened between post #16 and post #17.

3 additional votes.
Adel's greatly expanded case
1 more vote.

And then, instead of saying "I still think Iceman is pretty protown otherwise" you call for Icemans blood, even asking sekinj why she is not already voting for iceman.

--

18: Further reiterates desire to hang Iceman. Tries to make himself look less like a follower by stating Adel had no impact on his vote.

I didn't say that; I just said 144/146 were reason enough to lynch him on their own. I wouldn't have noticed if Adel didn't point them out though.

So. You say that you had enough reason to lynch iceman based on two posts and didn't need Adel's big case, and that you would have done this sooner if you had noticed them, but you missed them until Adel pointed them out.

How is this not showing a desire to hang iceman as well as trying to seem less like a follower by stating Adel's big case was not what swayed your opinion?

--

23: Doesn't want the Iceman lynch to stop, and says 'If we don't do it now we would just do it later' (Bad logic here) Also FoS's everyone voting for Crazy, which seems to contradict #22.

I didn't say I myself wanted to lynch Crazy, just that others seemed to want to still. Also, that's not bad logic.

Not bad logic? I propose since Darla will undoubtedly manage to get herself lynched some time in the future, we should lynch her right away. By this logic, you should have actually been supporting the Crazy lynch, because as you said, you thought most people still supported the lynch and it would be revived again regardless.

Can you explain to me how proposing we go ahead with a lynch because 'It will probably go ahead anyway' is good logic and not a good way for a scum to try and push a wagon into a proper lynch?

--

28: Opposes massclaim some more, and sets himself up to allow him to cast suspicion on Adel if her reasons are not identical to Cephrir's reasons. Disagrees with Crazy's OF case.

I assumed she was going for reactions, as if not then she had flip-flopped on her D1 stance.

Lets keep this clarification in mind as we look at some of the following quotes.

--

32: Explains his shift in opinion by stating that massclaim would let them use Adels tell, even though it had been stated by Adel and others that the tell was not that effective. Also doesn't explain the contradiction to his position in #2, Adel's tell does nothing to stop this.

See that #2? That means it was my second post. People can change their minds.

My apologies, I meant to write 'Contradicts his position in #2 AND #28', where you clearly stated "My argument against massclaim from D1 basically still applies here"

Also, this still doesn't explain why you were suddenly in favour of the massclaim in order to use Adel's tell, which even Adel said was not a solid tell

Finally, lets go back to the above point. Adel's reasons given for wanting a massclaim were given as a way to pressure lurker pairs. This is not 'going for reactions'. So why then did you not call her out on this and were willing to forgo your previous stance in order to follow Adel into a massclaim?

--

40: Agrees with klouds case on pwnz. (Not surprising given previous attacks on pwnz) Also tries to paint kloud as protown, but throws in some suspicion by calling it a possible bussing attempt.

Or, I actually thought it was probably a towntell at the time. And look! I was right!

So if you thought it was a town tell, why did you feel the need to throw in the disclaimer that he could be bussing? Seems like a way to throw suspicion on kloud and give yourself an out if he flips scum.

Finding out that kloud flipped an alignment doesn't exactly prove anything either. Watch, I can do it too: 'I think that sekinj might be town, but she could actually be scum.' Now, should sekinj die, I can use this quote and say I was right all along, regardless of what she might flip.

--

45: Cephrir does not like the deadline. States he would vote either cerebus or kloud. Seems to contradict #40 where he agreed with kloud.

Both were still scummier than OF.

That's not the point. The point is that after stating that kloud was giving you town vibes, you still thought he was a candidate for the lynch today. This is a plain contradiction.

--

47: Thinks Alabaska might be bussing but decides bussing is stupid. States he was buddying up with dybeck but completely ignores the fact alabaska and dybeck are lovers. Likes klouds input. States that HP's refusal to acknowledge RR's sensible case is somehow a towntell (Wait, what? How is failing to address logical points against you and deciding to ignore them a town tell?) Concludes that he would vote kloud at deadline.

I don't think scum with a case on them would just pretend it wasn't there. It just seems so... stupid.

Just as stupid as doing it as town? Saying it is a null tell is one thing, but you said his avoidance of points against him was somehow a towntell.

--

52: Cephrir thinks the only thing remotely scummy he has done is disagree with charter, and that this is not a tell. (This is what Adel's scum tell was all about, distancing and disagreeing with your lover, and Cephrir supported a massclaim in order to use Adel's scumtell.)

Disagreeing =/= distancing.

Not all disagreements are distancing, but some are. You can't ignore the point just because some cases of disagreeing do not distance two players.

--

54: Calls for people to make a relevant vote, but manages to miss Cerebus and Harvey completely.

Well it was pretty obvious who they'd be voting.

Pretty obvious? You thought they shouldn't have to actually place any vote because it was 'pretty obvious' where they would stick it? Why should they have been exempt? Even if they did take the 'obvious' route, it still would have provided information that could be used later.

--

57: Cephrir accuses Darox of ignoring Crazy, stating that he had a valid point. Then goes on to state that Crazy's OF case is still worthless. Goes on to say that he is no longer suspicious of Adel's vote hop because she has stated that it was a vote hop.

Yet another post summary that doesn't actually make me scum at all.

After Adel voted for you, you proceeded to make several posts against her basically attacking her failure to provide a case. Once she 'explained' that it was to gain info for later in the game, you were suddenly fine with her lack of a case and retracted your suspicions about her. Then more recently when she put you as one of her people she thought was a lynch candidate again, you started up again.

--

I really think you could do exactly what you just did on any player with a reasonable amount of posts. And quite frankly, I think that if Adel had named someone other than me at the end of yesterday, that's who you'd have just posted a really lame case on.

I actually wondered what Adel was doing right up until you responded to her vote.

unvote, vote:Cephrir

for being mafia.

This is extremely helpful, and pursuing a wagon other than cerebus or kloud is extremely protown right now.

Also, it is not in any way hypocritical coming from someone who's been insisting that everyone place a relevant vote.

Trying to minimize Adel's vote and attack her credibility, as well as trying to keep the towns focus on the two wagons and away from anywhere else, especially yourself.

Conclusion: Cephrir is still scummy.

[Darox]

The mod stated in the vote count that Pwnz was being replaced.

[Darox]

The only thing that bothers me is how long it took you to post it, and I have to wonder if you were just stalling until you could come up with some good stuff in there, since you did make other substantive posts in that time.

I posted it as soon as I saw someone that was not named Crazy or lovers with Crazy asking for it.

[Darox]

Say HP and cerebus are lynched right now. If they are werewolf, great. But we'll be no closer to finding mafia. Mafia also wield more power. They hold more votes among them. Lynching the final werewolf pair pales in comparison to lynching mafia who are able to consolidate their votes.

He's right.

It also means it would take more mislynches to enter LYLO.

[Darox]

I still like Ceph, but I'm not liking Darlas lack of input and only voting with the majority. Aside from two random votes at the beginning, she has only voted for people with at least 6 votes already stacked against them already, has promised several large posts and never delivered, and generally been unhelpful.

[Darox]

SCUM

Way to point this out after it's become popular. DBE has been non-contributing this entire game but you only mention it after A) your case against Ceph has failed and B) after it's popular.

unvote, vote Darox

Damn, you caught my vote hopping onto Darla's wagon.

Wait, what?

[Darox]

Opposed Force hasn't been on the site since before day 2 ended and is being replaced.

I can't account for Raging Rabbits voting habits.

[Darox]

I have a new lover!

Also, not getting the slip argument.

TS posted about RR and OF's lack of voting.
I pointed out that OF was in fact needing replacement which interfered with her idea, but the same couldn't be said for RR.

[Darox]

Do you just make shit up out of your ass or do you eat first? With that spin you would make a damn fine Reporter, sensationalism and spin seem to be second nature to you. I did notice RR answered your question, however he nor I do not speak alone for us as a couple. We both have different thoughts, and especially on this matter since I answered your question a few weeks ago. It is important that people see the falacy of your case and how irresonsibly you prepared it. I haven't made a case against you or adel yet, because I am not sure if you are scum or just lazy town, if I do decide to venture in that direction any evidence I have colected against you is relevant. Just because you use the "neener, neener" defense does not make you any less suspect.

Did you know that it is not an uncommon belief that scum are more likely to explode when they feel there is a case against them for the wrong reasons?

[Darox]

TS doesn't realize that this is a nightless game, and there is not a direct mechanical bonus to lynching wolves. (Although you could argue that in terms of scumhunting it is easier to spot a group of 4 than a group of 2)

[Darox]

Defending yourself through your non involvement?

Come on, really?

[Darox]

Does sleepypanda know that TS is DGB and that DGB is the ruler of insanity, chaos, and Alaska?

In other news,

Unvote: Cephrir

[Darox]

Charter has more or less been trying to push random wagons out of nowhere. I do not like that.

It isn't a random wagon armlx, for shame. I was until recently voting for his lover, so it is a perfectly justified wagon.

[Darox]

BM, the above post against crazy seems to ignore the fact Iceman later flipped town.

[Darox]

I totally said that iceman flipped wolf and not town and did not make a gross typo error.


As for the 'slip', what?
How is providing evidence why my lover has not voted then failing to do the same for RR providing a defense for RR?

It's me saying even though TS's ideas about voting habits don't work in the case of OF needing replacement, the same could not be said of RR because he was active.

[Darox]

I don't like ThAdmiral wagon and think it has a weak basis.

I think there are much better wagons to explore. That RR wagon shouldn't have died yesterday, for one.

As for Crazy, I've stated my beliefs on him.

I think he is town but not 100% confirmed.

[Darox]

I think there are much better wagons to explore. That RR wagon shouldn't have died yesterday, for one.

Why are you disappointed? It's not like you voted, or supported the wagon.

Admittedly I could have been more vocal, but I did think the pressure on RR (and by extension WWB) was providing some interesting discussion and I supported the way the wagon was going.

[Darox]

Crazy as confirmed town?
Confirmed- armlx
Probably town - SleepyPanda, Darox, Cephrir, RagingRabbit
Unconfirmed - N/A
Probable scum - Walt, BattleMage

I think this is a more realistic poll.

[Darox]

Scumish -

Possible Mafia

Crazy/Knights (fs) - Most of what can be said about crazy comes from day one. The null scumtell, the appeals to emotion, and the self vote among others. I think he has remained more cautious during day two and three, however I think he is too quick to cast votes and change wagons. The same can be said for KoC as far as votes and wagons.

Emphasis mine.

Deliberate misquoting is scummy, but, then again so is backtracking.

[Darox]

I think you are miscategorizing those who believe he is town but not "confirmed 100%". That's definitely closer to my camp then the one of you + BM who are legitimately considering voting him.

He is either confirmed town or he isn't.

He could be scum as he is not a confirmed townie. I posted my read on him on the previous page and I did not indicate I was considering voting for him.

Actually, we really don't need to do the poll anymore, at least not for my benefit now that

I understand what he has meant all along.

I think there are several here who feel the same as I do about Sekinji/Neko, that they are confirmed townies or whatever everyone wants to call them.

Emphasis mine.

Actually, speaking of backtracking...

Care to explain what suddenly changed your mind?

[Darox]

My daytalk already has date and number.
Way ahead of you.

[Darox]

And I may retract my statement that BM its a bad lynch. The same can be said for Toaster, as well as Charter/Ceph for not putting days and times in. Also Darox/Star needs to post times and add the daytalk since he posted it a few weeks ago.

There is nothing new added to my daytalk since I last posted it.

Star is a non existant lover.

[Darox]

Daytalk summary

08-03
10:07 PM 1: Mod opens the Daytalk thread

08-04
12:08 AM 2: Raffles says hi

01:11 AM 3: Opposed Force says hi

08-10
01:32 PM 4: Wolf replaces in and says hi

08-13
09:57 PM 5: Opposed says hi and mentions personal issues that are getting in the way of his reread, but he promises to discuss his views when he is done.

11:33 PM 6: Opposed lists the people he finds suspicious.
Crazy and farside are at the top. He cites Crazys buddying with Adel, and Crazy's faulty logic in calling iceman scummy. He thinks the scumtell Crazy had was made up after Adel proved him wrong in order to try and survive for longer. He also mentions crazy's appeal to emotion and how in his experience this is almost always done by scum. He also notes how Crazy jumped on the iceman wagon and how this has shifted the spotlight away from him.
Iceman and Orangepenguin are next. He cites icemans hypocrisy in calling RR out for thinking like scum when he was doing the same thing. He goes on to say that fire had misinterpreted RR's post on Crazy & Farside and that he was trying to shift the spotlight from iceman to RR. He also mentions that iceman had said that unless Crazy had received a second message his argument if useless, but all townies had received a second message and if Iceman was town he should know that.
The final person listed is Charter & (?). OF states he doesn't really have a big case on him and that he's not really that scummy but some of his points seem to be oppressive and sometimes WIFOMish or otherwise faultly. Makes a note to keep an eye on charter.

08-14
09:20 AM 7: The mod makes it official that wolf replaces raffles.

06:19 PM 8: Wolf says he can see the points against crazy and that he is kind of seeing the points against ice/penguin. He mentions the difficulty of forming solid opinions when replacing in. He does however think Ice just got stuck with a bad partner.
In regards to charter wolf states he tries very hard to scum hunt but always seems scum to wolf, even when he is town.
He also notes that Neko, Cerb, and RR all voted for Fire in quick succession and ponders whether they are a scum group defending rabbit.

07:46 PM 9: OF agrees that it can be hard to get solid reads on players when replacing in and agrees with wolf that fires actions do seem like a bad townie mistake, but that the actions of iceman have convinced him that they are scum.
Disputes wolf's ideas of Neko, Cerb, and RR being part of a scum team, citing his previous bandwagon gaining 3 votes from different people in quick succession.
Finally asks what wolf thinks about Adel and her scum tell, and if he thinks Adel is trying to make an easy scum getaway.

10:28 PM 10: Wolf states he didn't really get the scum tell business, which is why he stayed semi quiet on the matter. He goes on to say that Adel seems to be making good posts and scumhunting, but also thinks this could just be because she is good at manipulating the town.
Wolf goes on to make a note of Neko and cere both jumping in to agree with Adel then proceed to stay quiet, perhaps because they thought they could easily slip in with an Iceman lynch which seems inevitable.

11:36 PM 11: OF agrees with Wolfs comments on Adel, saying he didn't really understand the scumtell and that this lead him to be bandwagoned, and he thought there was some scum on his wagon. He notes that Adel has so far looked like a paragon of townieness and her points are interesting and well perceived, but that if she is playing a gambit with the scumtell that she is in a good position to manipulate the town with ease.
Further adds that Wolfs points on neko and cerb are interesting, and that upon further investigation that cerb seemed to jump onto the two most influential bandwagons (crazy and firestarter) along with neko who did the same.
He also makes the note that both of them seem to be lurking and that they should be pressured a bit tomorrow, but that he would be focusing on Crazy to see if he would drop any more scumtells.

08-15
02:11 AM 12: Wolf agrees about the idea to pressure neko and cerb as well as OF pressuring Crazy, and states it might be easier to do something about Crazy when/if iceman flips town, because of how hard crazy pushed icemans lynch.

11:41 PM 13: Wolf comments on Darla's L-1 vote, doesn't like this because he still thinks iceman is town.

08-16
09:12 AM 14: OF doesn't like the votes that have been put on Darla, saying that people are misinterpreting it as scummy when it could easily have been a town move. Doesn't like the way Adel jumped off iceman to pounce on Darla to start a new wagon.
Also mentions that Crazy is providing scummy reasons why Iceman should be lynched and is just hiding in the wagon to get iceman lynched instead of himself.

12:25 PM 15: Wolf says he thought the way darla did it seemed pretty scummy and that if she had really lost her post she could have found it easily.

08-18
01:34 AM 16: OF is pleased that Ice/penguin flipped werewolf, and states that at this point he is inclined to go after Adel or crazy. Goes on to say he doesn't like Adel's leading the town where ever she wants and he doesn't like Crazys lack of scumhunting, his following of the crowd, and generally staying out of the focus.

02:51 AM 17: OF asks if wolf wants to support a massclaim.

08:25 PM 18: Wolf replies that he is fine with a massclaim.

11:44 PM 19: Wolf apologizes for throwing their names out there so soon.

08-19
08:05 AM 20: OF states that the early claim is fine, and doesn't think claiming early is that big a deal.

08-22
05:06 PM 21: OF states that he firmly believes Crazy is dirty rotten scum. He cites Crazy's blatant buddying with Adel, following her votes, and that his case on OF is crap. Doesn't think Crazy is contributing anything to the town at all. Still doesn't like how Crazy managed to escape the spotlight when iceman got lynched.

08-23
10:46 PM 22: OF has a change of heart, and begins thinking he might be wrong about Crazy. He thinks he may have been pushing a little bit too hard and getting carried away, and that some of what crazy/KoC has said may be valid. He still doesn't like Crazy's buddying but will reread everything and come to a more balanced conclusion.

08-26
04:38 AM 23: Mod announces that Darox has replaced wolf

06:06 AM 24: Darox says he is still reading through the thread, and that so far Crazy looks like scum.

08-27
05:12 AM 25: Darox states he has fully read through the thread, and has come to the conclusion that Crazy is more likely a dumb townie. He is not convinced 100% that he is not a mafia, but he thinks Crazys actions especially related to the tell, while dumb, were not things scum would ever do.

09-08
09:11 PM 26: Mod announces that Starrie has replaced OpposedForce.

Done and done.

Oh yeah,

Vote: Charter

[Darox]

Anyone who thinks Crazy is scum solely because he pointed out that TS had broken a rule is reaching for the stars.

[Darox]

Vote: Charter

Previous stated reasons, pick and mix style of answering questions, signal to noise ratio.

Etc.

[Darox]

Unvote

While I discuss and read the thread.

[Darox]

This is extraordinary: I actually think that BM is town.

I can't say the same about RRabbit though.

I agree wholeheartedly. I can't see any good reason to lynch BM as of yet.

[Darox]

charter - *sigh*

DGB, you say you strongly think both charter and BM are town. If I were to think the two almost automatic lynch candidates were wrongly accused, I'd make a lot more of an effort to show why exactly. The way you seem content to just say empty stuff like "BM is huggable" makes it look like you're scum who's just out for townie credit if they turn town. If charter wasn't so very scummy I'd reconsider my vote, but anyways, a more coherent explanation would be nice at this point.

The only case against Charter is that he is getting frustrated by the votes on himself.

[Darox]

charter - *sigh*

DGB, you say you strongly think both charter and BM are town. If I were to think the two almost automatic lynch candidates were wrongly accused, I'd make a lot more of an effort to show why exactly. The way you seem content to just say empty stuff like "BM is huggable" makes it look like you're scum who's just out for townie credit if they turn town. If charter wasn't so very scummy I'd reconsider my vote, but anyways, a more coherent explanation would be nice at this point.

The only case against Charter is that he is getting frustrated by the votes on himself.

I want to hear what brought about your change of heart. What did DGB say to convince you? Because she hasn't said anything new since she replaced back in. You seemed so confident that charter was scum and now you are saying he's town? What are the reasons for voting charter before?

I was voting Charter because he was doing nothing but spouting hot air.

Then I realized that A) There is no substantial case against him, and that B) The deadline is not directly looming overhead.

[Darox]

Can you please tell me what Charter has done that is indicative of scum?

[Darox]

1. What's BM's scuminess got to do with my own?

2. Doesn't his and CWR's refusal to post DT count for anything?

3. What makes you think the frustration in charter's tone can only come from townies?

4. In your daytalk, did you explain your reasoning more in detail and convinced Darox to follow your lead?
5. Why am I scum?
6. Why is armlx scum?
7. Why do you keep not explaining yourself?

Bolding mine.

Why do you like asking loaded questions?

[Darox]

1. What's BM's scuminess got to do with my own?

2. Doesn't his and CWR's refusal to post DT count for anything?

3. What makes you think the frustration in charter's tone can only come from townies?

4. In your daytalk, did you explain your reasoning more in detail and convinced Darox to follow your lead?
5. Why am I scum?
6. Why is armlx scum?
7. Why do you keep not explaining yourself?

Bolding mine.

Why do you like asking loaded questions?

What's loaded about them? Words "refusal" and "frustration" are clearly warranted here, I don't think even DGB would argue about that.

charter, have you ever even made a case against armlx and/or myself that isn't just repeating that we're scum ad-infinitum? Other than vote you, what do you actually think we've done that's scummy?

You are taking something DGB didn't say and asking her why she is saying it.

This is known as a

bad thing.

[Darox]

2. Doesn't his and CWR's refusal to post DT count for anything?
3. What makes you think the frustration in charter's tone can only come from townies?

These two. The ones I had bolded.

It's like if DGB had said 'I love chocolate ice cream' and RR asked 'Why do you hate vanilla?'

[Darox]

No, she says she finds Charters reaction town.
She doesn't say she thinks this reaction can only ever come from townies.

Nice try though.

[Darox]

Vote: WaltWishbone

I've found some scum guys!

[Darox]

So why hasn't WWB been wagoned to death yet?

[Darox]

I don't think Crazy is confirmed, but I think he's probably town. Do you seriously think the above is the best case out there?

To be honest no. But I don't really like the other two options either.

Join the WWB wagon.

It has plenty of merit.

[Darox]

The idea is that the mod decided to add the town daytalks AFTER the scum daytalks, and thus created them later.

However, this falls apart completely when you realize the timestamp for the post where the mod announces he will give everyone daytalk threads is half an hour before the first time recorded for the mod's opening of a daytalk thread.

[Darox]

The idea is that the mod decided to add the town daytalks AFTER the scum daytalks, and thus created them later.

However, this falls apart completely when you realize the timestamp for the post where the mod announces he will give everyone daytalk threads is half an hour before the first time recorded for the mod's opening of a daytalk thread.

[Darox]

That's not true either. The mod could have done one thread, gone and taken a shower, and came back and did some others.

And that doesn't prove anything about the alignments of the people he did before taking a break.

[Darox]

The one thing we all share; scum and town is we each got an introduction post in the daytalk thread from destructor. The times would be the same for scum and town alike in their individual threads. According to the posted daytalk, the following times were given for the introduction post.

9:42pm - Sekinji/Neko & BattleMage/Clockwork
9:45pm - Armix/Sleepypanda & ?
10:07pm - crazy/KoC, Darox/DGB, ThAd/dbe, Charter/Cephrir, & WWB/RR

All the other daytalks were made at the same time as well.

Still not any kind of conclusive evidence that Sekinj is scum.

[Darox]

I meant that all the other daytalks had been created together in the same timeframe.

[Darox]

That seems more like a ploy to stay alive since armlx/sp already have their votes on you while sekinj/neko didn't and could have simply voted for you to break the tie.

Am I right?

This makes no sense because what Charter just made himself the deadline lynch.

[Darox]

I agree with DGB.

She makes a compelling case.

Vote: Sleepy Panda

This vote has reasons.

They will be divulged shortly.

[Darox]

I wasn't voting Panda for the time thing.

[Darox]

I actually thought they would come up Mafia.

[Darox]

Lets do it then.

Vote: Sekinj