Old habits and such.
Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)
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WaltWishbone
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WaltWishbone Goon
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Sorry, I've been a little busy the last few days, prod received. I don't have a lot to add at this point. The two biggest topics of conversation have been the scumtell and a mass claim, neither of which have implicated anyone enough to lynch thus far in my opinion. I am going to read some more now and come back with more thoughts later. Removing my random vote.
Unvote-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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WaltWishbone Goon
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This is a really curious discussion, I have some intial thoughts after a re-read. I'm not ready to jump on a crazy bandwagon, although I do find him suspect.
FOS: crazy
He could be reacting this way because he has been dropped in a hole and is digging himself deeper trying to get out. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt for now and not voting. In the following post he really seems to be looking out for the best interest of the town, unless he realized or was told by a scum partner that a mass claim was bad for scum and is backtracking? He seems to really think he was onto something.
As it turns out, he and Adel were not talking about the same scumtell and his explanation for what he was thinking does make sense. However, Sleepy Panda makes some really good points in this post.Crazy wrote:Charter just missed all my points, but oh well, because I just saw what Adel said:
I believe I know what she's talking about. I don't believe that claiming would completely invalidate it, but it certainly wouldn't help...Adel wrote:because it would invalidate the secret scumtell I have that I won't announce until we have three days on the books without a lover-pair massclaim.
I hope the other townies in this game will pick up on what he's saying and not reveal this secret scumtell.
(If any of you inquire about this, I will assume you are scum.)
I agree with this for the most part, just beacuse Adel has a scum tell does not mean she is not the other alignment of scum and she should not earn a three day pass that quickly. It also begs the question, should we end the discussion of a mass claim so quickly?SleepyPanda wrote:This scumtell discussion is just silly. Does knowing the scumtell make you less scummy? I don't know what it is, does that mean I'm scum? We have two people arguing that they know what the scumtell is and that the other is pretending to know, but they can't say it or it ruins it, so they can't prove if they know it or not. You're not getting anywhere.
Iceman, why are you talking about role PMs and saying that unless Crazy got a special message, he doesn't know what the scumtell is? There's no other way for Crazy to know what the scumtell is?
Crazy, how are you so sure that Adel is town? There are two scum factions. It's not possible for her to be in one and try to eliminate the other? How do you go from pushing for massclaim, then when Adel mentions the words "secret scumtell", you immediately know what she's talking about and go along with her?
Adel's response to this was that it was a much shorter game. So I have a few questions? We have all agreed it is in the best interest of the town not to discuss or hint at what the scumtell is. Can anyone verify that they know what she is talking about without giving it away or hinting at it? Adel, will it really have that big an impact on the game? Are you sure the scumtell will help the town more than a massclaim will?farside22 wrote:Actuall the last game I played with the lovers game the mass claimed worked because you started seeing pair and how they voted and I was scum in that game. The only reason the town won was because they saw the voting system and the other people who were scum were being very flaky in the game.
vote: DarlaBlueEyes
Those are my thoughts so far. I am going to read the thread again, as there has been a lot posted and I was not able to keep up the first few days.-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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This game is moving really fast. This is a really detailed post Adel, I wasn't sure what you meant either, but now this makes sense.
Between the "scumtell" and "mass claim" discussions, this has been really interesting. It seems that two groups of potential scum have formed. One around Crazy/Farside and another around Iceman and possibly Firestarter. I still have a really strong feeling that crazy is scum AND my post/fos was before he voted himself. I don't buy the excuse that believing the scumtell would work means he is town. However, at this point I think the strongest case has been made against Iceman. I don't have anything to add, I agree with what adel wrote.Adel wrote:this is where Crazy revealed his tell
before that additional PMs were never mentioned in the games, except for:Crazy in 199 wrote:(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)
icemanE in 164 wrote:Additionally,crazy, unless you received some kind of special message after your role PM, the generic townie PM is available for all to see on the first page of this thread. It's the PM is received, so unless you got something extra, you're full of crap.Please vote and eliminate crazy-scum, it's clear now he's full of shite.
we all got a second PM after our role PM, with the link to the daytalking forum, and that PM is not posted on the first page.
but it gets better,Farside in 165 wrote:He never said anything about it being in a PM about a secret scum tell.Where are you getting this from? Voting patterns wasn't the only thing that is a secret scum tell in this game.There is a second part.
as scum, icemanE knew this game was an open game with the townie role PM posted on the first page. He held on to this belief, but gave himself the out of "unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't" in case Crazy's scumtell was a minor variation between the role PM that was sent and what was posted. It didn't occur to him that there could be a second role PM. If he were a townie he would know that there was an entire message that townies recieved that was not posted on the first page.icemanE in 166 wrote:The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.
Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.
as a control, take a look at Sleepy Panda post:
Panda noticed that icemanE placed particular emphasis on the "special message"Sleepy Panda in 189 wrote:This scumtell discussion is just silly. Does knowing the scumtell make you less scummy? I don't know what it is, does that mean I'm scum? We have two people arguing that they know what the scumtell is and that the other is pretending to know, but they can't say it or it ruins it, so they can't prove if they know it or not. You're not getting anywhere.
Iceman, why are you talking about role PMs and saying that unless Crazy got a special message, he doesn't know what the scumtell is?There's no other way for Crazy to know what the scumtell is?
Crazy, how are you so sure that Adel is town? There are two scum factions. It's not possible for her to be in one and try to eliminate the other? How do you go from pushing for massclaim, then when Adel mentions the words "secret scumtell", you immediately know what she's talking about and go along with her?
so, was icemanE aware of the second PM that gave the quicktopic link?
well, he doesn't make another post until 240 (after the daytalking PM to townies was revealed and talked about), at which point he posts:
so did he miss post 199 and all of the conversation about daytalknig and PM's on page 9?icemanE in 240 wrote:
This is straight BS. Townies are LESS informed than scum.PANDA, IT IS SOMETHING THAT ONLY TOWNIES WOULD KNOW!!! I can't say anything more without revealing what it is. Not all townies might catch it, but THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT SCUM WOULD KNOW WHAT IT IS.
How could they possibly have info that scum does not?
If you want me to, I'll reveal what I believe the "secret tell" is - it's hardly a secret, it's something both scum and town could easily figure out if they thought about it for a minute, so knowing the tell does not prove either way that you're town or scum - that's the main problem I have with crazy's crazy bull. Like I have said many many times,unless crazy recieved some sort of special information the rest of us missed, there's not a game-specific "secret tell". The one I'm thinking of could exist in any game of this type. Additionally, it's not an unbeatable, bulletproof tell - it's as valuable as any other, and just as breakable.
Crazy's defense of "keep me alive until at least day 3 so you can see my secret" is trash. Also, the fact that he unvoted me just a few short posts after he said:
is ridiculous.I am about 90% sure Adel is town. I am about equally sure Iceman is scum.
I think it's worth losing farside (who from my evaluation hasn't done anything awesomely protown or horrifically scummy) to lynch Crazy, who is quite clearly scum.
the next post mentioning daytalking icemanE makes is
icemanE is trying to run a distraction-based defense. He wants everyone to focus on the daytalking, and not on the number of PMs.in part of 251, he wrote:You thought I was scum for, in your words, "pretending to see a scumtell" which scum apparently had no way of knowing about,despite the fact that it's equally plausible for both scum and town to think of revealing daytalk after a few days as a scumtell(I assume you did this to make yourself appear incredibly protown and extend your value-life until at least day 3 (evidenced by your little plea a couple pages back (PWEEZ DON'T WYNCH ME!))). When you realized your scumtell wasn't what ADEL was talking about (who, for some odd reason or another, you've decided is the pillar of the town, proven somehow to be on the town's side without any real backing for that statement) you suddenly retracted all suspicions, only to cast them out again a short while later because you accuse me of "not reading" when I reference earlier posts.
let us review:
this post is the real scum-trap.Crazy in 199 wrote:(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)
Crazy didn't know that the scum also got a second pm!
... and icemanE was worried that something was amended to the version of the pm sent to townies. icemanE did not know there was a second PM sent out to townies with a quicktopic link.
for a while I thought that icemanE was testing Crazy, to see if Crazy would admit to recieving something in addition to his original PM, which would clear clear Crazy.
VOTE: Iceman-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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I'm happy with my vote on Iceman, however for the replacemements and some players trying to catch up who are maybe reading too quick, Crazy can you explain your scumtell again and how you thought it would work. It might be easier in one post as oppossed to having it spread throught out several posts in repsonse to questions. How did you expect it to work? Why would a massclaim hurt it? Did you speak to farside about it in your DT thread before you made your post agreeing with Adel to drop the massclaim? etc...Crazy wrote:Wolf, did you even read?
Do you even know what the scum-tellwas?-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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I am even more happy with my vote now on Iceman knowing that firestarter is his Lover because he was third on my list of suspects. The main thing he did to make me suspect him was cast an erroneous vote, which Adel called him on. Both you and he admit it was to get suspicion off you and also admit was a poor choice. However, yet here you are again, casting a doubt on others to get the pressure off you. This is anti town and scummy.
This is very weak and does not reflect the truth, there have been numerous times in this game and other games when it is best to quote an entire post. For instance Oppossedforce chose to quote the entire post in #549 among others in the game. Adel put a lot of thought into that post and every comment has merit and is relevant. This game is moving fast, it is good that it has been repeated so everyone is given the chance to review it. It was also very complete, I did have little to add to it. It is not joining a bandwagon. I was very careful not to join the crazy bandwagon. Although I still have an fos on him, I feel the stronger case is on you. I put a lot of thought into voting for him as is detailed in my posts#218 and #469, however chose not to vote at that time. I think you know all this, however here you are again trying to get suspicion somewhere else, anywhere else and that is anti town. I am keeping up with the thread, however so far I do not see a defense by either you, your lover or anyone else that compels me to unvote.icemanE wrote:Also, while I'm immensely impressed with the activity level thus far in this game, I'd like to hear more from:
Harvey Pew
Alabaska J
DarlaBlueEyes
neko2086
cerebus3
pacman281292
icemanE
WaltWishbone - (who, on a side note, quoted Adel's large case on me to justify his vote, which seems odd for (2) reasons - 1, simply referencing it would have worked just fine, thank you, and 2, he states that he has nothing to add, which, while not inherently scummy, is a very easy way to join a bandwagon and make it look, at a glance, as if you've thought a lot about it.)
since they haven't contributed anything of value over the past couple of pages.
It's important to remember that there are a lot of players in this game. We can't let people slide through the cracks.
It's also important to remember that Adel's case is flawed, and that I am town, and as such it follows that all votes should be removed from me promptly.-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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So, that was a good lynch. I have an idea of his potential partners. dybecks defense of iceman was suspect in my opinion.
kloud1516, welcome to the game. Have you had a chance to read through the daytalk of dybeck and his lover? Any indication why he tried to defend iceman/firestarter? Can you paraphrase a bit of that conversation and post?
fos: kloud1516
I agree that the vote for DBE by Adel was odd; I don't see why you didn't expect people to join the bandwagon on Iceman/Orangepenguin. You made an excellent, detailed post/case; which was cemented in my mind when Firestarter tried to start a new wagon. You almost did the same thing to her that he did; fortunately the case that was built against them was too strong to fall apart. Adel, do you still feel your scumtell is more valuable than a mass claim at this point?
Also, Crazy, can you summarize and explain again how you thought your scumtell had any chance of working? I have read your posts regarding it several times and I don't get how you thought it could work.-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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WaltWishbone Goon
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I am caught up from the last few days and I re-read the posts involving the four wagons (Fire, Crazy, OF, Ice) that formed on day one and looked for similarities in the votes throughout the course of the game. There are some interesting patterns that emerged, although I don't see anything which is overwhelmingly scummy at this point. I have some random thoughts and a few questions to address.
Adel wrote:
I'm currently of the opinion that we need wider participation in this game right now. I think we should massclaim.WaltWishbone wrote:Adel, do you still feel your scumtell is more valuable than a mass claim at this point?
I agree Adel, more participation from lurkers and people who have been busy will be helpful. (I willl not be nearly as busy next week) I would especially like to hear from Armix though, as he and pacman have contributed the least to the discussion thus far.
Neither Adel or Crazy's scumtells seemed feasible in my mind, however the subsequent discussion was very useful in lynching Fire-Penguin/Ice. Putting off the mass claim until today has not seemed to benefit or hurt the town. A few of the lover pairs have been obvious; however a couple are really surprising, imo.
I would not have thought that would work, even if we were allowed to do more than paraphrasing. It's too easy for lurkers and players who have not been very active in the thread to say they only have exchanged 2 or 3 posts in daytalk and create something believable.Crazy wrote:
Okay, here it goes:WWB wrote:Also, Crazy, can you summarize and explain again how you thought your scumtell had any chance of working? I have read your posts regarding it several times and I don't get how you thought it could work.
I didn't know that the daytalk thingies were on the front page. Thus, I didn't know that scum had daytalk, too. So I was planning on waiting for a while and then having everyone mass-post their daytalk. We lynch the people that have less believable daytalk.
The timing and manner of that whole exchange involving the scumtell and mass claim was really suspicous, a bit contrived. Farside wrote that a massclaim worked really well in her last game and it would benefit town. However Adel argued against it and forty five minutes later, you did a complete reversal Crazy. Based on very limited information, the four of you (crazy, Adel, pwnz, farside) all ended up taking the stance that a mass claim would not be as beneficial as the scumtells. Neither you or Adels scumtells were more valuable than the mass claim, imo.
I also looked for potential scum buddies for fire/ice during my re-read. dybeck was first, he seemed to try to derail both the firestarter wagon with an erroneous vote on SSF and the Iceman wagon by calling us a lazy town. However there seemed to be enough of a disparity between he and Iceman, as well as Alabaska voting (then removing his vote) to cast a shadow of a doubt in my mind.
So it's interesting that dybeck and Alabaska both agree that Fire/Ice are the best candidates for the lynch in daytalk. So why did neither of them vote for them?kloud1516 wrote: @ Walt: Yes, I have had a chance to read over the daytalk of my lover and dybeck. I would gladly paraphrase the conversation in hopes of clarifying a few things for the group.
1) Mod explains the quicktopic is for daytalk
2) Lover greets dybeck
3) Lover asks if dybeck really feels that SSK is the best lynch for the day. Asks dybeck to give reasoning if he feels that SSK is the right choice
4) Dybeck claims that he isn't sure. Says that Fire/Ice could be scum, but didn't think the case presented was very convincing at that point. Feels like there should be pressure on more people.
5) Lover agrees that Fire/Ice/OP are the most scummy and best candidates for lynch.
6) I replace dybeck
I am not really sure what dybeck was getting at with the vote against SSK, and I feel that it will be necessary for me to go and read back over his posts when my head isn't throbbing, as I may be of more help to the town at tip-top shape. More to come a little later.
Well it was a good lynch. I'm not lurking, I have been really busy the last few weeks. As well, Myself and RR have had some pretty extensive discussions in daytalk, along with the amount of posts in the thread; this game is time consuming. I'll be able to keep up more now, at least the next couple weeks.sekinj wrote:reading SSF's posts I can understand the suspicion. however, if we are basing it mostly on lurking, let's open our eyes a little:
Here a few of our lurkers:
Armix - I know, you are thinking, who? yeah, he has posted one time. he replaced someone who had posted 2 times.
DBE - Yes, adel brought attention to her by claiming she intentionally put ice at L-1. with a total of 10 posts to her name, I doubt she knew the votecount, and I really doubt voting her is going to encourage participation.
Harvey pew - 7 total posts. votes fire, then switches to crazy after pressure from ice... these look pretty scummy.
Walt - 8 posts... notice the self-congratulation after the lynch...
If we want to shine some light on these lurkers I'd like some answers from harvey pew expecially.
I don't agree with the lovers you consider most scummy. I have not seen anything really scummy from TheAd/dbe or neko/sek and as far as of/wolf and ceph/char I have them closer to the middle.Crazy wrote:List of lovers:
From most scummiest to least, IMO:
-wolf & OF
-Cephrir & charter
-ThAdmiral & DBE
-neko & sekinj
-Erratus Apathos & SSF
-Panda & armlx (pacman)
-Alabaska & kloud (dybeck)
-Harvey & cerebus
-Adel & pwnz
-RR & WWB
From most scummiest to least, IMO:Knight of Cydonia wrote:Precisely the point I was making.
Walt - when you do catch up, can you give us an LoS, or a top 3 suspects? would be nice to know who you're thinking about.
-Alabaska & Kloud (dybeck)
-crazy & Knight (farside)
-adel & pwnz
-Cephrir & Charter
-Wolf (raff) & OF
-Harvey & cerebus
-Panda & Armix (pacman)
-Erratus & SSF
-neko & sekinji
-Dbe & theadmiral
I don't have enough suspicion to vote for anyone at this point, however I am suspicious based of a few people based on the comments I made above and some of the points other people have made in this thread.
FoS: Kloud
FoS: crazy-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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I do not think they are the most pro-town nor did I write that, I wrote that I consider them the least scummy. Although, the same could be said for the last four pairs of lovers on my list. I could have easily put them in a four way tie for least scummy. Part of it is not having enough information and/or participation, part is voting patterns, and part is they have not done anything extremely anti town in my opinion.Crazy wrote:WWB, why do you consider TheAdmiral and DBE the most pro-town pair in this game? The thought of that is shocking to me, considering that combined they make up about 1% of all the content in this thread. One lurker isn't suspicious. When two are paired up, it definitely is.
The one thing that stood out about dbe/TheAd during my re-read was their voting pattern; they seem perfectly synched as a pair and not aligned with a group. I am giving dbe the benefit of the doubt on her l/a status; if they continue to lurk after today without explanation then I may adjust my opinion.
RR actually asked me the same question in daytalk, he and I defer in our opinion on them, although he has not elaborated yet. I am going to wait for him to respond, I may change my list a bit depending on what he writes. I could have missed something, but I just don't see anything at this point that makes me as suspicous as others seem to be.
WWB wrote:So it's interesting that dybeck and Alabaska both agree that Fire/Ice are the best candidates for the lynch in daytalk. So why did neither of them vote for them?
YES, it is true. These are the nine people who voted for iceman - Cephrir, Erratus Apathos, WaltWishbone, somestrangeflea, sekinj, Crazy, ThAdmiral, charter, Raging Rabbit.crazy wrote:This is not true. Alabaska did vote Iceman, and dybeck did not agree that Fire/Ice was the best lynch.
Alabaska voted for Adel
Kloud (dybeck) voted for SSF
Seriousley, check your facts before making those kinds of statements. It confuses things and is anti town. He did have a vote on iceman at one point but removed it well before iceman reached l2, which I wrote in my post and you did not quote in yours.
I read your case against OF/Wolf, it has merit but in my opinion, not enough to lynch someone. Unless Adel can point something out that you did not, it will not make a difference to me.OF/Wolf should be lynched. I feel sad that nobody listened to my case. Adel, you're voting OF, and I knew if you made a lynching case on him, people would listen to you. [/buddy up]
I need to go back and re-read what he wrote. I thought he elaborated on it a bit further in a follow up post but I could be wrong. But considering your reason for dismissing the mass claim so quickly, I wouldn't talk, your "scumtell" was weak.Cephrir dinging my case as "fail" based on nothing hits my scumdar hard. It's like the same way at the beginning of the game when he dismissed the mass-claim idea.-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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Just for clarity sake, crazy, here is the part of my post you did not quote nor include in your post and perhaps did not even read.Crazy wrote:
This is not true. Alabaska did vote Iceman, and dybeck did not agree that Fire/Ice was the best lynch.WWB wrote:So it's interesting that dybeck and Alabaska both agree that Fire/Ice are the best candidates for the lynch in daytalk. So why did neither of them vote for them?
Alabaska voted for Adel and dybeck voted for SSF, even though in posts number 4 and 5 they agree that fire/ice/op are the best lynch. I am not ready to vote for them, however this is something that should be taken into consideration.WaltWishbone wrote:I also looked for potential scum buddies for fire/ice during my re-read. dybeck was first, he seemed to try to derail both the firestarter wagon with an erroneous vote on SSF and the Iceman wagon by calling us a lazy town. However there seemed to be enough of a disparity between he and Iceman, as well as Alabaska voting (then removing his vote) to cast a shadow of a doubt in my mind.
So it's interesting that dybeck and Alabaska both agree that Fire/Ice are the best candidates for the lynch in daytalk. So why did neither of them vote for them?kloud1516 wrote: @ Walt: Yes, I have had a chance to read over the daytalk of my lover and dybeck. I would gladly paraphrase the conversation in hopes of clarifying a few things for the group.
1) Mod explains the quicktopic is for daytalk
2) Lover greets dybeck
3) Lover asks if dybeck really feels that SSK is the best lynch for the day. Asks dybeck to give reasoning if he feels that SSK is the right choice
4) Dybeck claims that he isn't sure. Says that Fire/Ice could be scum, but didn't think the case presented was very convincing at that point. Feels like there should be pressure on more people.
5) Lover agrees that Fire/Ice/OP are the most scummy and best candidates for lynch.
6) I replace dybeck
I am not really sure what dybeck was getting at with the vote against SSK, and I feel that it will be necessary for me to go and read back over his posts when my head isn't throbbing, as I may be of more help to the town at tip-top shape. More to come a little later.-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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I'm not ready to vote, I need to re-read some stuff. I realize we have a lot of players and it will take quite a few votes to lynch, however considering how quickly a few of the bandwagons have moved I would not want to see a lynch before I have a chance to unvote. This is not quite as easy as day one with fire/ice/op in my opinion. There have been some very intriguing posts over the weekend and I need to reconsider my LoS a bit.-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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So, you are not officially in the game? What if SSF has been replaced by someone else as well?Battle Mage wrote:
Someone else had asked for replacement beforehand, so i offered. Then i was told the place was taken, but i'd be kept on the waiting list. 3 hours later, and SSF drops out, so i figured i'd hop in and help u guys out.WaltWishbone wrote:What time did you get asked to replace BM? SSF asked fror a replacement but it was only a few hours before you posted. It could be for him, I don't think anyone else had asked for a replacement.
WHERE'S MA LOVER!?
BM-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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I am in the process of re-reading and making notes as I go; I am not convinced cerebus3 is the best lynch, especially under the condition he and HarveyPew are werewolves. They both seemed ready to lynch Firestarter as the wagon built steam. I think they were mistaken by buying into icemans explanations, however in my opinion they would have gladly lynched FS. There was also a point in the crazy wagon when Harvey Pew could have joined cerebus to soldify a lynch, however he did not bandwagon. I think there are several points which make sense in the argument against both, they have acted mildly scummy, however I do not think they are werwolves. If anything they are mafia, but I am not ready to vote for either.
I still have a strong fos on crazy, I think that is a wagon that needs to be explored further. I think the case against him was stong, only lacking a few elements to justify a lynch. His secret scumtell sounds like a load, voting for himself, flip-flopping, and jumping on every band wagon formed. Just within the last few hours, he and KoC have gone from OF/Dar to cerbus/HP, and although it is a strong case, it is an extremely quick jump to get someone lynched in my opinion.
I am not seeing a solid case on OF/Dar, although they are mildly suspect. This is the second wagon for them that formed and fizzled. I go back and forth on adel/pwnz, she seems most pro-town in many ways, however there is something odd in the way she keeps derailing wagons; in the case of cerebus I agree, however I completely disagree with her change on iceman and question her motives on crazy. The whole scumtell was a waiste, however she did lead us to scum on day one. Regardless, I would not vote for her at this point, if anything she is mafia but she is too good a scum hunter and we still have one more group of werewolves to lynch.
Neko/Sekjini, Thead/dbe, erratus/bm, sp/arm all seem pretty town to me. The only thing I can write here is dbe is still not contributing much, battlemage has gone really quiet since he learned his role, sekinji possible numbering slip, and armix misreading the point of rr's comments to him about repeating comments about players who are already lynched. There are a few other points that have been mentioned about theAd that I want to reread, but at this point I am getting townie vibes from all of these couples.
I have had a few questions for Charter/cephrir during teh course of the game, however nothing undeniable. I would like to re-read the posts in isolation, which I will do after this post, however I feel strongly at this point the best lynch is alabaska/Kloud (dybeck).
I explained a little bit of my reasoning at the start of day two and there have been several other good points made by others through out the course of the day. The one thing I would like to elaborate on a bit is their daytalk.
The overbearing defense by dybeck of iceman is really odd. Especially comparing their games posts with their paraphrased daytalk. I believe the day talk is fabricated; comment 5 claims alabaska agrees with dybeck that iceman/fire is the best lynch. Comment 4, dybeck is not sure of who to lynch, he is considering iceman/fire, however still undecided. So what is alabaska "agreeing" too? That was not dybecks position, in fact it is the opposite, dybeck tries to stop icemans lynch and inevitably neither vote for them.kloud1516 wrote: 1) Mod explains the quicktopic is for daytalk
2) Lover greets dybeck
3) Lover asks if dybeck really feels that SSK is the best lynch for the day. Asks dybeck to give reasoning if he feels that SSK is the right choice
4) Dybeck claims that he isn't sure. Says that Fire/Ice could be scum, but didn't think the case presented was very convincing at that point. Feels like there should be pressure on more people.
5) Lover agrees that Fire/Ice/OP are the most scummy and best candidates for lynch.
6) I replace dybeck
VOTE: Kloud-
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I think that puts it at 7/7, without votes from the key players; Kloud, Alabaska, HarveyPew, or Cerebus. Also not voting is dbe and battlemage. I think this is the current vote count.
kloud1516 (7) - ThAdmiral, Erratus Apathos, Cephrir, Armix, WWB, Adel, Darox
cerebus3 (7) - SleepyPanda, Raging Rabbit, sekinj, charter, Knight of Cydonia, neko2086, Crazy
Unfortunately RR will not be around at the deadline, I'd like to hear a little more from him on cer/hp and I would like to hear what he thinks of my further thoughts on alab/kloud. I think he might convince me of his case or swing his vote.
After reading charter/cephrir isolated; I think it's a good case to investigate tomorrow along with crazy, however again I think the alab/kloud is the best lynch today. I have noticed a few more things after re-reading, I believe they are scum however I am not sure if they are werewolves or mafia. I am leaning towards werewolves based on dybecks defense of ice and any vote or fos for fire/ice/op by either was just a smokescreen. If they turn mafia, I have a good idea who their partners may be and this is a good speculation of their possible reasoning for not voting iceman.
As far as their paraphrased daytalk compared with their game posts; dybeck voted for ssf and alabaska voted for iceman on aug 10th, that would coincide with their daytalk post number 3. Then on the 13th, dybeck made his argument against the iceman lynch being lazy which coincides with post number 4. Then in post number 5, Kloud claims alabaska agrees that iceman is the best lynch, however he had already voted for ice. So not only does dybeck not vote for ice, alabaska takes his vote off ice on the 17th and places it on adel for a really weak reason. None of this makes sense and I believe it is because the daytalk seems completely fabricated.ThAdmiral wrote:
This post has all the hallmarks of scum knowing a townie will be lynched so he can say "told you so" tomorrow.dybeck wrote:This lynch has all the hallmarks of a lazy lynch by a town that has closed its mind to other options.
Almost makes me want to get off the wagon.
Alabaska, Kloud; I'm all ears if you would like to explain this to me. However as I stated, I think your daytalk was contrived.-
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Yeah, Adel is right, although the vote count may actually be 8-7 on Kloud, (I'm not sure who's votes may not count due to the unvoting rule). With the deadline fast approaching don't you want to address any of the points in the case Alabaska or Kloud? Does someone want to play Devil's advocate on their behalf? I would expect some kind of discussion or argument if we were about to lynch a townie?-
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Alabaska, I'm glad you are here. Can you paraphrase your daytalk in your words, maybe kloud made a mistake? Can you tell us what day each post was made? It seems very inconsistent with the game play. For example in post 5 in your daytalk, Kloud says you agreed with dybeck to lynch iceman. You had already voted for him though? So what were you agreeing to? Instead you unvoted and voted for adel? Also dybeck never votes for him? There are a lot of outstanding questions for you both.-
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Actually I believe the deadline passed at 9pm; 1 hour and 25 minutes from his post at 7:35pm. I feel more comfortable in my vote now; both Alabaska and Kloud have been here knowing they were going to be lynched but did not write anything in their defense or address any of the questions raised over the course of the day. I was here and could have unvoted, to flip the vote in their favor had they written anything substantial but they did not write anything on their own behalf. I have a feeeling they will turn mafia. I am very suprised cerebus and Harvey Pew did not vote either. I have a few thoughts, which I will hold until Destructor makes the final announcement.-
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I wouldn't mind seeing it Darox, however I think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. One of the reasons I voted for kloud/alabaska was their day talk and it made so much more sense when alabaska posted his version, unfortunately it was too late.Crazy wrote:
OF's reaction to my case was incredibly OMGUS. You must admit that if nothing else.Cephrir wrote:Darox, way to ignore Crazy. He does have a point. His OF case is still crap though.
Darox, what are you doing? If you have no objection to paraphrasing your daytalk, go ahead and do it. If you do have objection, then say why.
I'm not sure what to think now, I need to re-read the HP/Cer case and talk to RR when he gets back. I find it really curious they went so quiet when they were close to being lynched. I'm not sure if this is more townie or scummy; but it is something that is interesting at the very least. I'm not oppossed to picking up the crazy discussion, that died pretty quickly after Icemans wagon. Other than that, I'm not really sure who I suspect, I need to do some more reading.
I think we should be able to figure out who the other werewolves are out of those who didn't vote for them in the final lynch;
HarveyPew/Cerebus
Armix/Sleepy Panda
oppossedforce/Darox
adel/Pwnz
adel/pwnz both voted for them originally and adels case pretty much hung iceman in my opinion so I'm not really considering them. With Harvey Pew and Cerebus, again they seemed completely unaware that ice and fire were lovers and seemed ready to lynch fire. I am going to re-read OF/Dar and SP/Arm isolated to see if I see anything unordinary.
More later.-
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Please do, I don't remember him contributing a lot to lynching iceman. Also, just because he may have helped hang a werefolf, does not mean he is not mafia.Battle Mage wrote:
This will have to be REALLY good...armlx wrote:
Reread how he caught icemanE.Armix, I didn't catch this the first time around or think much of it, but how is crazy confirmed town?
Can you be a little more specific?
BM
Reading darox daytalk now, more later.-
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But how does that make crazy not mafia?Darox wrote:Crazy wrote:
Holy crap, you mean I didn't know what you were talking about? Okay, so now I know nothing about your alignment.Adel wrote:Knowing a scumtell has nothing to do with alignment.
Then it appears that I have a scumtell of my own, then, the one that I've been referring to this whole time. That coincidentally also would work better without a mass-claim and is something that scum would have no idea of. I suggest keeping me alive until Day 3/4 at least so I can reveal what it is. K? If I don't have anything then, you can lynch me. Really, what's the harm in this unless you're scum?
Iceman attacked Crazy because "You can't have gotten something extra in your role PM" and "Unless you got a second message telling you about this that I missed"Crazy wrote:
I was expecting after 3 or 4 days that everyone would post all their daytalk... I didn't see anything in the rules against that.Adel wrote: What doesn't make any sense to me is that Crazy thinks that claiming how many PMs from the mod you got in your inbox would reveal scum after 3 or 4 game days.
All the original towns people did get a second message to give them daytalk threads, and it this pretty much outed iceman and confirmed crazy.-
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I see what you are saying but as BM said Destructor wrote in his post number#4 we were all getting a second pm. To me this was not the most damaging point against iceman, until adels post detailing all of the merits of the case and then firestarter coming out as his lover was the final "nail", in my opinion. I don't see that this confirms crazy as town.-
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Darox's chat was pretty convincing, although the same thought went through my mind that crazy had, it did take a lot of time. I dont think this is really a scumtell though. I hope OF is replaced soon, I'd like to hear what his replacement has to contibute. As far as the crazy discussion, there may be a few people who believe he is confirmed, but there are quite a few who do not, including myself and even he admits he is only mostly cleared. I really dont have anything other than whats already been stated too justify a case against him though and koc seems fairly town to me. I'd like to hear more from dbe and thAd, I hope dbe is ok with all the bad weather, I didn't see anything in the news about evacuations though, so hopefully she is just busy and will post soon. As far as the other werewolves, I tend to agree with adel, that SP seems fairly town. I'm not sure what to make of hp, I am going to do some more reading.-
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I second SleepyPanda's request, I would like to hear your thoughts. In the mere 15 minutes it took you to read and compose your post, there were plenty of other players on MS who did not have a problem posting. You only have 15 posts, half are saying you are going to be on l/a, responding to prods, or one liners, not much content. I'd really like to know why you think HP and Cerebus should be lynched.SleepyPanda wrote:
I would like a more in depth reason...or just a reason...or anything.DarlaBlueEyes wrote:Well I wrote of a magnificent (ok not really) but longish post, about harvey and his..antics. And the site gave me some sort of expired error? I clicked back but my message was gone. *cry*
So, I am gonna do what I did in said postvote Harveyand if you guys want a more in depth reason as to why..well...I'll have to do it later cos im miffed at MS at the moment.
fos: dbe
ThAd, nothing more specific than what SP wrote, I'd just like to hear from you in general. What your thoughts are so far, who you think is most scummy thus far and why, however the question is more directed for dbe.ThAdmiral wrote:
Anything in particular. I'm happy to answer questions by any and all.WaltWishbone wrote:I'd like to hear more from dbe and thAd
As far as HP/Cerebus, if I end up voting for them, it will be as Mafia, not werewolves. One thing that really stands out to me is their votes on firestarter, and to me it seems they are really unaware that iceman and firestarter were lovers. They defended iceman to a degree, however were ready to lynch firestarter. Their votes remained on fire for at least three days, when the wagon was at full speed and I don't think scum partners would have bussed that early.
I think RR returns Sunday, I want to see what he has to say and to continue re-reading before voting.-
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Had you bothered to read the thread, you would know the answer to this already. I am not going to encourage your sloth, if you want to know then read the thread. I am going to read this little wank of your Toster again and respond, however lynching to lynch is extremely scummy. We can catch the second set of werewolves without Adels help, who is more than likely mafia.Toaster Strudel wrote:Here's a question for Raging Rabbit -or- his lover.
NO ONE ELSE ANSWER!!!
We've already killed werewolves. Today, should we go after werewolves or mafia?
fos : Adel-
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Yeah, good point and I guess scum/townies equally make mistakes, however it something that doesn't go on or isn't caught after so much time.
Look at the way she asked the question, it is an obvious important question to her and adel, howver they both already know the answer to this as I addressed it several times. Thus she obviousley has not paid enough attention to the case she is making against RR and me and is clearly not willing to do so. They both just want someone hung and that is whats scummy in my opinion.
Look at how many times adel has jumped ship and voted for a lynch; first she wanted you and Farside hung, then fire and ice, then OF and his lover, then dbe & thead, then HP/cer, then Ala/Kloud, now me & RR. She is completely wrong and anti town for being so careless with her vote; her vote is just as scummy and dangerous as Dbe's l1 or l2. she is gonna keep getting townies hung if she keeps playing this way as quickly as the wagons are forming and I don't think she cares and she may not be scum, but she is anti-town in that sense.
I still need to reread and see if Toaster wrote anything worth responding too.-
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Thats no longer the point, the question should have never been asked by YOU, because it was already answered. You just want someone hung, you dont give a fuck who it is or you would pay more attention.Toaster Strudel wrote:
YOU should read the thread. RagingRabbit has already answered the question. I am not going to encourage your sloth.WaltWishbone wrote:
Had you bothered to read the thread, you would know the answer to this already. I am not going to encourage your sloth, if you want to know then read the thread. I am going to read this little wank of your Toster again and respond, however lynching to lynch is extremely scummy. We can catch the second set of werewolves without Adels help, who is more than likely mafia.Toaster Strudel wrote:Here's a question for Raging Rabbit -or- his lover.
NO ONE ELSE ANSWER!!!
We've already killed werewolves. Today, should we go after werewolves or mafia?
fos : Adel
This is bizarre beyond words: "however lynching to lynch is extremely scummy" Er - I always lynch "to lynch" I don't pussyfoot around!-
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Do you just make shit up out of your ass or do you eat first? With that spin you would make a damn fine Reporter, sensationalism and spin seem to be second nature to you. I did notice RR answered your question, however he nor I do not speak alone for us as a couple. We both have different thoughts, and especially on this matter since I answered your question a few weeks ago. It is important that people see the falacy of your case and how irresonsibly you prepared it. I haven't made a case against you or adel yet, because I am not sure if you are scum or just lazy town, if I do decide to venture in that direction any evidence I have colected against you is relevant. Just because you use the "neener, neener" defense does not make you any less suspect.Toaster Strudel wrote:
Unfortunately, when you neglected to notice that RR had already answered my question, you lost the ability to effectively make a case with that argument. You just want anyone that accuses your duo to be hung.WaltWishbone wrote:Thats no longer the point, the question should have never been asked by YOU, because it was already answered. You just want someone hung, you dont give a fuck who it is or you would pay more attention.
And now you're working to findpost hocevidence. That does NOT look good for you.-
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The above is post 1348 that adel is referring to.Toaster Strudel wrote:Here's a question for Raging Rabbit -or- his lover.
NO ONE ELSE ANSWER!!!
We've already killed werewolves. Today, should we go after werewolves or mafia?
Adel also wants the question answered.Adel wrote:
and the scumtells we are sitting on.Raging Rabbit wrote:True, there's also almighty 10k game posts.
why aren't you answering the question TS directly asked you in 1348?
you've made two posts in this game since then...
Why are you asking questions that you already know the answeres to, which you clearly indicate you KNOW in this post? You know I had an idea that I posted in the game thread about going after werewolves, yet you still second Toaster's question, which she obviousley asked because she did not bother reading the thread when she joined the game. Why? Also you know RR has been out of town since last weekend, and my post#23 was last Monday, so of course we do not have any daytalk regarding this yet you still ask. Why?Adel wrote:Thanks RR! That was great!
Why didn't you mention his plan of pretending to go after werewolves that he presented in the thread?
Can you see why my vote is on you now?
~~~
Has anyone else had that many (or more) disagreements with their lover?-
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I think it can go either way, however that is far from exploding. It addreses the issues.Darox wrote:
Did you know that it is not an uncommon belief that scum are more likely to explode when they feel there is a case against them for the wrong reasons?WaltWishbone wrote:Do you just make shit up out of your ass or do you eat first? With that spin you would make a damn fine Reporter, sensationalism and spin seem to be second nature to you. I did notice RR answered your question, however he nor I do not speak alone for us as a couple. We both have different thoughts, and especially on this matter since I answered your question a few weeks ago. It is important that people see the falacy of your case and how irresonsibly you prepared it. I haven't made a case against you or adel yet, because I am not sure if you are scum or just lazy town, if I do decide to venture in that direction any evidence I have colected against you is relevant. Just because you use the "neener, neener" defense does not make you any less suspect.-
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@ThAdmiral - That's not a great analogy. Three things; this is not in real time, I have been away for the last 48 hours and could have been hung by the time I returned without a say in the matter. Second, a defendent does not have the right to question his prosecuter for the same crime in a court of law. Lastly, a response may also contain the same tone or redundancy in order to ellciit a reaction as someone who asked the question in the first place. Get it yet?
I need to re-read the last few days, I'm not convinced HarveyPew is the best lynch still. I completely agree with Toasterstruddle, please explain more HP; why is crazy the best lynch? Are you sure?-
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So you are saying it is ok for Toasterstrudel to be patronzing and sarcastic and not me? Do you know her, have you chatted with her? I have not heard you lecture her for being patronizing yet? Why not?SleepyPanda wrote:They're not scumtells in and of themselves. If someone uses foul language all the time, then obviously it would be moot. I rather judge an individual on their own merits. The use of foul language and sarcasm is not odd by itself. It's the shift between your level-headed play prior and the much more aggressive tone you take up after being under suspicion.
How about you answer my question first.How about telling me what triggered you to respond the way you did? Do you always play like that? Have you done so in other games when under suspicion?-
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woot, she cracked this game in 15 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SleepyPanda wrote:I believe I already have.
I'm not lecturing you. I'm not your mother. I don't care if you use foul language or if you patronize others. I'm noting you because I haven't played with TS as much as I have with you. I don't have anything to compare her playstyle with. Her first post was that she'd crack the game in 15 minutes. Maybe her playstyle is just wild.
They're not scumtells in and of themselves.If someone uses foul language all the time, then obviously it would be moot.I rather judge an individual on their own merits. The use of foul language and sarcasm is not odd by itself.It's the shift between your level-headed play prior and the much more aggressive tone you take up after being under suspicion.
Answer nao, pleez.
Yay............................................................................................................................... she was wrong, lol.-
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You are worse than my Lover as far as nagging goes, here are your answers sweety pie... she DIDNT read or she would have known I wanted to hang werewolves, and it pissed me off and I decided to POKE her to see how strong her convictions were. She backed off, because her case was to build pressure as both you and the theAD had pointed out.... however who caved? It was adel and thesturdel. So I kinda am glad they came down on me and RR as hard as they did, it make me think they a little more townie.SleepyPanda wrote:Where are my answers? >:[-
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okay number onearmlx wrote:SP is my lover.
I really don't see how you don't understand what I'm saying.
1. I am online right now.
2. I'm pretty sure I will be online again before the deadline.
3. I'm not compelled to move my vote form HP to elsewhere.
what does "this" mean? Why is your vote there?
number two#
Why do you keep writting crazy is "confirmed" town, when most the town is not sure it is true? You seem to want to have a pissing contest about it, so lets have it!-
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You asked.ThAdmiral wrote:
Taking the analogy a bit too seriously.WaltWishbone wrote:@ThAdmiral - That's not a great analogy. Three things; this is not in real time, I have been away for the last 48 hours and could have been hung by the time I returned without a say in the matter. Second, a defendent does not have the right to question his prosecuter for the same crime in a court of law. Lastly, a response may also contain the same tone or redundancy in order to ellciit a reaction as someone who asked the question in the first place. Get it yet?
TO ALL: I don't know where darla is either. I would also like her to post more. However - I don't really see why this makes us seem scummy. Why does more active = town? I'm trying to get on and talk as much as possible, but I am also trying to enjoy my holiday in new york - hence you may not get as much out of me as other people.-
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I really don't know, thats why I have not voted. My best read is from the four who did not vote for them.... and you are right all four couples should have pressure. But I'm just not gonna ask a lame question or vote for someone to start a discussion/debate. I need to reread some things.Toaster Strudel wrote:
So according to you, who are the wolves and why?WaltWishbone wrote:...she DIDNT read or she would have known I wanted to hang werewolves...-
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I'd like to read your case, you seem sure crazy is scum, however you have not written enough to convince me to vote for him. Although we have all "hopefully" read his questionable comments during day#1, I think it would be good to re-address the issues.Battle Mage wrote:
This is where i'm at. I dont see alot of point me continuing reading when you're the only person who knows i'm here, and you're not being totally helpful.Battle Mage wrote:well i would apologise for my absence, but it seems i havent missed much. No Lover, No response to my accusation on Crazy/KoC. *cries*
BM
BM
At this point I am not sure where to put my vote, I did not get a chance to do the reading I wanted to yesterday, I'm going to try now. There seems very little is going to stop the HP lynch. I think several players seem convinced HP is the right lynch and he is not offering any further defense or building a case for a better lynch.
I'll post more after some reading.-
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- Joined: May 16, 2008
I have been doing a lot of reading today; I was looking for potential patterns from specific players and went back over the wagons that have formed throughout the course of the game. The HarveyPew/Cerebus lynch might have been prevented, as well as Alabaska/Kloud had they presented a timely defense or someone played Devil's advocate on their behalf. I thought Ala/Kld would be a good lynch and saw the merits of the case against HP/Cer, however the wagons are forming too quick, lacking enough substance, and we are losing the advantage we gained on day one with the lynch of Fire/Ice.
I don't see the case against BattleMage at this point. I have done a revised LoS with my reads, based on the last few weeks and the reading I did today. It is interesting; during the Fire/Ice lynch at least one person from every couple voted or was prepared to vote for one or the other at some point during the day. So, there was some distancing and perhaps bussing towards the end by their partners. Iceman posted their "daytalk", which I imagine from what little there was, it still had some truth to it. Reading between the lines a bit, there are two things that stand out; it is more than likely the entire group agreed that a mass claim was a bad idea and they knew Fire/Ice had made too big a mistake to avoid being lynched.
I am not going to do a LoS on who I think is most to least likely scum, I am going to present my thoughts on possible scenarios and/or groups. I am not ready to vote, however this is how I read the game at this point.
LoS/Reads
Scumish - Possible Werewolves
Charter/Cephrir - They seem to buddy with Iceman and to a lesser degree Fire, right from the start of the game and seem to be working towards the common goals of lynching crazy, preventing a massclaim, and moving suspicion from Fire/Ice to anyone else. In Cephrirs posts#1, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11, 12 and Charter's posts#3, 12, 13, 36 they continue to reinforce these issues until shortly after Adel posted her case against Ice and then began to question Fire on his erroneous vote, concluding when they admitting they were lovers.
What is intriguing to me is that as the wagon formed and the case began to take shape they seemed to dismiss the most damning evidence and changed their vote to Ice without a lot of reasoning. It does not seem unlikely, at the point it became clear Fire/Ice were going to be lynched, they decided the best course of action would be to Bus.
Starrie (OF/Space)/Darox (wolf/Raff) - Neither OF or Wolf voted for Fire/Ice in the final count. OF had a vote on Ice at one point however removed it after the wagon began to build steam and placed it on crazy. He also claims near the deadline that he is ready to vote for Iceman but will not because he is L2, however several people removed their votes bringing him to 9 and he did not vote for him.
Wolf also expressed doubt however never voted for him. I re-read the daytalk Darox posted and although it was quite detailed and seems very realistic it seems a bit incosistent with a few comments made in the game thread. Wolf makes the comment that his Lover will not talk to him, however they are talking in daytalk. Wolf unvotes crazy because he "made a mistake", however in daytalk the following day he reiterates he considers him a suspect.
Scumish to neutral - Possible Werewolves or Mafia
Sleepy Panda/Armix (pm) - Niether Sleepy Panda or Armix voted for Fire/Ice either, Sleepy Panda made the same comment as OF regarding a vote on Ice at L2, however did not vote for him in the final count. Armix joined the game late and was more than likely trying to play catch up reading before the day one lynch. Armix insistence that crazy is confirmed town is questionable when most of the Town does not agree with him. I do not think he has placed a lot of detail into his reasons for some of his votes. There seems to be similarities and a degree of buddying between he and crazy, they could be the Mafia group.
Scumish - Possible Mafia
Crazy/Knights (fs) - Most of what can be said about crazy comes from day one. The null scumtell, the appeals to emotion, and the self vote among others. I think he has remained more cautious during day two and three, however I think he is too quick to cast votes and change wagons. The same can be said for KoC as far as votes and wagons.
Adel/Toaster (pwnz) - I continue to flip flop on Adel; I give her a lot of credit for leading the town to scum day one. I think she has been one of the Towns most aggressive and perhaps best scum hunter to a point. I think it has been helpful to assert pressure, however I do disagree with how easily she places her votes on people. The same can be said for Toaster during the short time she has been in the game. There does seem to be a degree of buddying going on between Crzy/KoC and SP/Arm which could indicate they are part of the Mafia group.
Townish
ThAd/Darla - It is not so much I consider ThAd/dbe town as they just have not posted enough to make me suspect they are scum. I would not feel right voting for them on lurking and dbe's L2 vote alone, however there lack of participation is hurting the town's chance.
BattleMage (ssf)/Clockwork (ea) - I am really looking forward to reading Clockworks evaluation on the game so far. I think BM is just a litle too focused on crazy, however he has not done anything really that has made me suspect him or to join the wagon which has formed on him.
Sekinji/Neko - I get a pro-town vibe from both. They are conservative with their votes and seem to put a lot of thought into who they supsect. I think they both have been actively scumhunting and have presented solid reasoning behind their votes.-
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WaltWishbone Goon
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- Joined: May 16, 2008
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