Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[LlamaFluff]

Hey guys, replacing Gimbo here, I will be doing a reread and will have that up later tonight

[LlamaFluff]

Alright I am working on a reread right now, am through five pages, I should have the rest of the game done later tonight. I will

unvote

for now just incase the vote wasnt removed when I replaced in.

-Page 2-

(36)

This may be reaching, but all of a sudden we have a "counter wagon" on armlx. Does seem to be random votes. I would not let this go by without mentioning it as a fair percentage of the comments and actions so far have been off the wall.

I dont like this, the point something out but dont draw definate conclusions is a scum tell to me. Introducing it with a 'this is vaugely scummy' tone, especially with no FoS/votes looks even worse

(39) Armix calls LTG on it

-Page 3-

(51) LTG response. Says this is normal for him to point things out, and critcizes Gimbos play style. I still hold to the scummy part of the comment was not that it was pointed out but lack of a solid course of action taken

(54) K7 refuses to random vote

(57) Bogre vote on LTG confuses me. This is the first mention of LTG from him and the vote seems to leave out most of the scum reasoning I have seen.

Discussion on randoms and slow pace

-Page 4-

More useless banter

(81) LTG is back with an odd post. Accepts the vote from Bogre, pushes for game related discussion, metas, calls actions around randoms hard to read, spyrex town, gimbo odd.

(82) Bogre questions forbiddan statement

(84) Spyrex argues with some LTG points, agrees with others, FoS on forbiddan

(85) Borgre agrees with Spyrex against forbiddan, already established

(86) Forbiddan "post to post" comment

(90) armix criticizes CF, metas, criticizes forbiddan/agrees gimbo

More meta

-Page 5-

Lurker discussion

(104) forbiddan unvotes

(105) armix calls 104 scummy

(106) gimbo calls 104 scummy

(107) Spyrex calls 104 scummy

(108) forbiddan selfvotes

(109) gimbo calls it scummy

(110) spyrex is confused

(111) bogre calls it frustrated town

More confusion

(118)

Forbiddanlight: Unvote yourself and start hunting scum.

Right now your play is hurting the town.

(120)

vote forbiddanlight

please dont vote yourself and hunt scum thanks.

(121) armix calls K7 for thinking forbiddan is town but still voting him. Interestingly enough Bogre said nearly the exact same thing, just worded differently, and was not called on it.

(124) spyrex agrees with armix and FoS k7

[LlamaFluff]

More Page by Page work. I will have the game finished with a vote and case tonight.

-Page 6-

armix/K7 argue

(129) Manito makes a joke sounding FoS on K7 (sides with armix?)

(130) Corin sides with K7

(132) FS calls forbiddan town

(138) TLG doesnt like K7 reactions

(139) TLG doesnt like FS line, still is being vauge on final conclusions

(141) CFR calls FS on not voting, and votes K7 on reactons to forbiddan selfvote, I like this post

(142) *ugh* agreement from manito with armix and then furthering a case with bad logic, also calls K7 scum, even though what he quoted seems to suggest K7 overagressive town

(144) forbiddan votes K7 saying her plan worked

ninja'd discussion

-Page 7-

(150)

there are enough questions about forbid's alignment that we're going to have to lynch before lylo.

I dont like this, seems to say "we need to lynch forbiddan eventually". Spyrex also called her actions a possible scum gambit, still not voting though

(151) Bogre agrees with armix, this is mafia not follow the leader people

(152) FS seems to OMGUS CFR for a legitimate post

(154) FS offically FoS-OMGUSs CFR

(160) Manito agrees with Bogre, who agreed with armix. I also noticed that Manito is voting armix who he agrees with

(161) Spyrex correctly calls FS on OMGUS, but still is very hesitant about forbiddan

Arguing

(168) SPyrex agrees with gimbo on a legitimate point

(173) Joubert quotes a lot of stuff, but really doesnt make any noticeable conclusions.

-Page 8-

(178) armix joins forbiddan wagon

(180) text wall, some points of intrest though - good analysis on joubert. I like the analysis on manito, but I am not sure how you come to a town conclusion on him. You point out he is overly agreeable, dont point out +town things, a town conclusion bares the question "why?" K7 get overagressive town read, lots of questions and a vote for forbiddan

(181) manito claims to of had no origional ideas, agrees again and votes forbiddan

(182) gimbo jumps on forbiddan wagon

(183) Forbiddan defends, but it seems to mostly be "you misinterpreted it"

(185) Borge calls bad defense, says starting to think forbiddan is scum. Makes ironic statement of discussion stimulus

(187) manito seems to want to find a way out of the wagon, not as sure on forbiddan as scum

(190) corin pushes at forbiddan, not voting her

(192) FS votes forbiddan

(194) Corinthain votes forbiddan

FS and forbiddan argue

-Page 9-

(200) Bogre dislikes forbiddan statement without saying why

(206) FL replaces, wants to lynch forbiddan because its better either way for the town

(207) armix calls her on it

LTG goes on meta spree for no apparent reason

(215) TLG still says forbiddan is scum

(222) FL goes between common sense and gut, but doesnt say what they are

-Page 10-

(225) Joubert again posts without making any real conclusions

forbiddan and FS argue (again)

(230) Corin thinks forbiddan/FS are distancing

MORE and MORE FS/forbiddan arguements

[LlamaFluff]

I am all caught up now *cheer* final pages analysis here. I will orginize a case, vote and a few FoSs soon. Also

mod

can we get prods/replacements on dcorbe and ShadowGirl?

-Page 11-

(250) ugh block of text, was simplified later so will mention then

(252) spyrex says forbiddan is fundamentally the best lynch

(256) much simpler. town read - armix, joubert, spyrex, gimbo, corin, manito, bogre. neutral - shadow. scum read - K7, FL, FS, CFR, dcorbe, LTG

(257) forbiddan votes CFR

(258) FL makes case skeletons against manito, dcorbe and gimbo

(260) corin defends gimbo

(263) spyrex thinks if forbiddan is town, FS should be looked at

(265) KOC LoS is only forbiddan, votes forbiddan

(266) armix asks for hammer (this was L-3 lol)

(274) KOC wants forbiddan hammered regardless of alignment

-Page 12-

(276) KOC says it again

(282) Joubert votes forbiddan, seems slightly OMGUS and he seems afraid that it will "follow him" which to me suggests forbiddan=town

(285) manito seems to be happy with his vote to the extent he feels he needs not say anything else

(287) KOC agrues with forbiddan over the wanting of her hammered. I side with forbiddan here, it sounded like you thought as town it would be better off to have her lynched too.

(289) TLG still supporst forbiddan lynch

(291) I dont like for CFR says he only has time for things related to him (defense and suspects), but the rest of the post seems like a legitimate train of thought that he has had in this game, votes forbiddan

(292) manito attack FL for playstyle issues, misunderstands meta into an attack. Then starts defending his quietness on a lack of any other evidence. Sounds like he really wants a forbiddan lynch, but really doesnt seem to want to be pushing one.

(293) corin agrees with manito

(297) FL defends, a little overagressive defense, but it makes sense for the most part given what he was attacked for

-Page 13-

forbiddan and KOC fight

(309) forbiddan offers to self hammer

(310) corin calls it WIFOM

(311) shadowgirl, in her first game related post in a week, says its antitown

(313) FS thinks forbiddan is a mislynch due to not enough info

(315) K7 says dont selfhammer if you are town

(319) gimbo hammers

(321) spyrex expresses some uncertanty about his vote

(322) manito does a PBPA of FL. Part of your case in based on the unwillingness to vote, seriously, go meta. This is his playstyle. Quite a few mentions of the "cases" which arent really great, but give OMGUS vibes. Also the continued conflict over your inital big post against him, which I said really didnt look apealing already.

-Page 14-

(325) FL votes manito

(326) Spyrex wants to look at the people who didnt vote, in contrast to his 263 ideas

(327) KOC FoSs K7 (didnt bold it)

(328) armix wants to look at CFR and FS

(329) FS votes gimbo, FoSs K7

(335) KOC votes gimbo on meta reasons partially

(340) LTG wants to focus on K7, FoS not a vote

(341) Bogre wants to look at people late on the wagon

(344) armix votes FS, case promised later

(345) spyrex puts up cases on FL, LTG and FS

(347) manito votes FL. Main points seem to be
-voting him but not forbidden
-fluff posting (which I dont see)
-being emotional

(348) KOC debates between gimbo and FL, unvotes

(349) CFRs main suspicions seems to be gimbo, k7 and FS. Votes K7

-Page 15-

(350) FL defends

(352) gimbo votes manito, FoS on FS and LTG

(362) manito keeps pushing FL

(365) spyrex pushes FL

(367) Now theres a sexy analysis

(368) KOC votes FL, I dont like how he dismisses K7 due to inactivity though. Lurking does not change alignment.

(370) FS introduces some rediculus information that gimbo getting replaced is a scum tell

(374) LTG debates a pressure vote on K7. Suspects seem to be FL, gimbo and FS too.

-Page 16-

At least this game is active

(378) I dont get it, is this OMGUS?

(379) Joubert seems to defend gimbo

[LlamaFluff]

I'm with Armlx on this one, and to quote the old addage - LAL.

Pulling something like this as a supposed "town" aligned player is bad juju...you don't lie, that is part of what defines us. Firestarter really nailed it on the head:

Furthering the case against forbidden with false information (LAL) while agreeing with all other points by armix

In his 160, Manito agrees with Bogre, who agrees with armix, who says forbiddan is scummy.

Spyrex, you hit the nail on the head on that note - no one who is town would imply the possibility that they are scum.

More pushing of forbiddan, this time with a vote. Once again though on a point that another player established

187 seems like manito is asking someone to provide an alternative to forbiddan. Using phrases like "logical defense" "my vote stands

for now

and "im not convinced of innocence" both imply thoughts of forbiddan being town, since she is using good defense and the way convinced of innocence was used, it sounded like "but I can be" should of been added on. 'for now' obviously implies ability to be swayed easily

(1) was it successful in revealing mafia?

and

(2) whether was it a (a)scum tactic to throw suspicion off a partner, or a (b)town tactic to incite action from scum - was the action itself too questionable in execution to exclude part (a)?

This sounds like a passive defense of forbiddan, who you are voting at this point. By throwing out the possibility that the plan worked, that would also imply that forbiddan is town, which your vote does not reflect.

You guys get all in a huff about "Manito just agrees with everyone" and "Manito doesn't post enough" - why would I post a bunch of inane garbage and rhetoric when I've already voted for the person I currently believe is the scummiest. I'd be more concerned with the fence-riders and the people who have no opinion, personally...

This gets good, this post alone merits a few votes. Now, of COURSE you arent going to just spam to post or anything like that, however you are not playing like town. You seem to be very happy with your vote on forbiddan. So what? The lack of a push from you to actually get forbiddan lynched, especially with the town flip on her, makes me think that you intentionally refused to push the case and become a major part of her lynch in fear of being called on it subsequent days.

On top of all that you say that the people who are fence sitting should be looked at, not you. Pushing people away from a stance you take claiming people who chose other stances are scummy is in itself, scummy

My statement was that the discussion had come to a standstill, which is exactly what forbiddan stated, and couldn't have put it better: If she dies, she dies, if she doesn't, who does? Because frankly no one else is discussing any other options. I stated that I don't like to sit around and post just for the sake of posting, especially after having voted. My vote is in, and I have explained exactly why I voted.

Again, there is a difference between posting for the sake of posting, and pushing a case on scum. You choose to do neither and just sit there complaining that we want you to post more and get some origional ideas.

Furthermore, somthing interesting about your playstyle is, it picked up the moment you came under suspicion from FL. Untill this point you seemed content just going with the flow and making minor comments. Including the random stage, you had ten posts before FL made the case against you. Since then you have had 13 posts, with far more substance then before. Going from posting little over 5 lines per post and less then a post a day average to posting large blocks of text, and averaging nearly three posts per day, that is just amazing. Something changed there, and I think lurker scum came out fighting.

vote Manito

side note as you posted as I was writing this. The recap is for as much my benifit at figuring out what happened as everyone elses. If I went into extream detail with every post I thought had significance, I would still be stuck on page five. When I make cases, like this, I have plenty more analysis.

opinions on a few others to come later tonight, tomorrow at latest

[LlamaFluff]

My second pick for scum is someone who really seems to be going unnoticed, but on a reread concerned me quite a bit. That would be Corinthian.

Now for the most part of the early game, Corin played to the extent where nothing was added, a few meta comments, confusion about random stage, and no serious votes. It wasnt untill 130 where he took a stance on something even.

I can agree with killa's basic idea- it kinda looks like forbid gave up and self-voted cause she was feeling attacked. But voting someone you think is a townie to see if she "really wants to play this game" is a stupid plan.

So a bit of siding with K7, previously unmentioned, to put pressure on forbiddan, also previously unmentioned.

Debate then goes on and on about forbiddan, and Corin jump in eventually with

Am I missing something?

Forbiddan claims to have been acting out a clever plan, right? A trap into which K7 fell?

What exactly was this brilliant plan, anyway? Look scummy and self-vote to see who else joins the wagon? How is that a trap for scum?

If one intentionally tries to be scummy to get votes, all that proves is that people will vote for players who act like scum.

I cant really get the just of this. It seems to take a great stance where it can be interpreted to whatever is needed, making it a noncommital quote towards both forbiddan and K7, who at this point were becoming the people that had a high lynch chance.

He simply doesnt agree with the plan, saying it was a bad thing to do. Although the option of it catching K7 is mentioned. So while taking a stance on what he thinks of the plan, the thoughts on the players involved in it are left out.

Soon after, he joins the forbiddan wagon because he thinks she did not actually have a plan at all. This reasonin was something that FS pointed out

Agree with forbid on the last two posts.

She's right, I've sniped her arguments, but she repeatedly called me probable town.

starting to think there is something to her repeated accusations that firestarter is twisting her words.

Also, she's right that most of what people are talking about right now is her case and whether or not it's scummy.

Doesn't make her town, but does make it look like firestarter might be trying hard to distance himself.

I dont like this post. It sounds like in this post, he is starting to give forbiddan=town some credibility as FS is "twisting her words"

How people talking about her case does not seem relevent at all in this post either, which to me seems to be more geared at an attack on FS for pushing forbiddan who he is voting. The word distancing is used, but with forbiddan flipping town, it smells of setting up D2 lynch as "twisting words" could now be called a scum move.

small FoS to Faerie Lord for saying he doesn't want to discuss other people until we resolve the forbid issue.

I dont see you trying to either pull a wagon off forbiddan or push it to lynch. You just are sitting there acting conflicted. FL is at least trying to do something.

So now we've got manito vs. FaerieLord

well, we know which side KC is on.

what the hell, why not ask forbid and fire what they think about this discussion?

ugly post. Town should not be trying to make it player vs player, or even promoting that possibility. In this post, you also manage to not really back anyone up while pointing out an argument. From previous posts you have a small FoS on FL, for wanting to concentrate on forbiddan (your vote) and a playstyle thing (go meta). I dont see any mention of manito from you up untill this point either

Are we going to have the "would a townie self-hammer?" debate now? I've seen it argued both ways: only scum would suggest self-hammering/ scum would never suggest it.

It is a little odd that K7 decided to leave off contributing, considering he's a main player in the forbid discussion.

Finally we have his last post, he hasnt said anything D1.5 yet. In this he trys to make forbiddan a WIFOM arguement, while not taking a definate stance on it for it meaning town or scum. After that though, you go as far to try and throw some dirt on K7, who has got quiet. It had been about a week since you even mentioned him at this point, and close to a lynch mudslinging looks bad.

HoS Corinthian

[LlamaFluff]

My third suspect would be Knight of Cydonia

Wow. well, this was going to be a full LoS, but I'd actually like to have a focused look at forbiddan light.

Nice tunnel vision to enter the game with. While having a clear suspect is never a bad thing, we now have no idea of your inital thoughts on most players, on most arguments and ideas, on other wagons. We just know you want forbiddan dead. The way this is said also implies a later return to look at other players, which never did happen. D1 you spent just about the whole time pushing for a fobiddan lynch.

I honestly think if the town doesn't lynch forbidden after quite possibly the scummiest first day I ever did see, we're screwed. Anyone who acts this scummy as town is a hindrance, and anyone who acts so blatantly obvious as scum is a gift.

And like my mum says, never refuse a gift. Because you can always get store credit.

anyone who acts this way as town is a hindrance

Quite frankly, m'dear, if you are town, I'd be almost as happy to see you go. You're doing nothing by playing this way other than helping the Mafia.

Now, I have to side with what forbiddan said here. These two quotes to me basically boil down to the following statement -

"I think you are scum, but as a townie you dont have much use, so lynching you isnt horrible either way"

I have seen this debate a few times, and my position is always the same. A townie who is not too good is still a townie. They are still a body that mafia needs to get lynched, NK or endgame. Killing off someone because they are not a good player is handing scum a free pass for the day.

It certainly looks like a initial strategy that went wrong, to me. I think fl is almost certainly (99.9999% sure) scum, and if so, I'd suggest having a big look at killa's reaction in 1.5. They've both played a lot of WIFOM throughout the day, so I'd say they look a lot like a pair trying to play a strategy. Killa, I'm less certain of than fl, but only because he's been a bit quiet - I'm actually leaning town with him, if only because I think he realised that his trying to draw aggro players out isn't necessarily going to draw out the family. I think it's most likely that if fl is scum(and I'm sure she is), so is he, though.

First of all I

hate

with a passion people who do the 99% scum stuff, this is always bull to make your case just look better. The rest of this post is ripe with contradiction though. At first KOC says that fobiddan is scum (grr) and given that she is scum, we should take a close look at K7 tomorrow because he thinks that they were playing very similary. At the same time though, you have a town read on K7. You train of thought goes forbiddan scum -> K7 scum. So why do you say that K7 is town? You again finish with forbiddan and K7 are scum. What is K7 and why?

Yeah, look, fl, we all know you're scum, or the most retarded townie ever, so stop trying to throw crap out there to try and get a townie lynch day 1.5.

Tunnel vision and personal attacks... words exchanged that make both players look a little assy

I don't think it's as black and white as that, SpyreX. Looking at it as "You didn't vote because you wanted to avoid people looking at you!" can go on into a WIFOM chain long enough to tow the Earth back form the Medusa Cascade. If fl had been playing normally as opposed to a crap, one-dimensional complete-lack-of-defence, then we could look at the votes to see what's what. As it is, she probably fooled as many townies as she made goons happy. For now, based on yesterday, I will FoS Killa7, simply because he quite happily went completely AWOL while forbiddan dug herself a deeper and deeper hole, turning up only when it was a near certainty she would be lynched.

Defends people who werent voting (good) and then FoSs K7 for lurking (not as good) it would be nice to see a case to back this up a bit

Here he bounces around between Gimbo, K7 and FL. As of 351, FL gets an annoyed read, Gimbo townish, and K7 as scummiest seeming.

That said, your... somewhat belligerent offensive has worked. FL has changed completely from Day 1 - if he was town, I'd expect him to have been more consistent in voting style, instead of jumping in feet-first, a complete change from "I vote rarely." So, I will

Vote: FaerieLord

for schizophrenia, wall-of-texting to try and avoid questions, and the way his calm demeanour has completely cracked under any kind of pressure.

Finally a bit of a case with a vote. I may not agree with a FL scum read, but its something. Again though it really isnt a novel idea though. Out of his three suspects, gimbo got replaced which alleviated suspicion there, and K7 really wasnt moving towards a lynch. It seems as if he took the safest vote and parroted the reasons for it here.

I said I was going to put K7 aside for a moment - there's not much point in questioning someone who's lurking until they begin to make a commitment to the game.
Speaking of which, K7 has only posted about 5 posts that are more than a sentence long, and they seem to be perfectly placed just as people start thinking
about a prod. Lurking in open sight anyone?

This again bugs me a little. If you have a scum read on K7, which given forbiddan flipping town I am a little surprised at, you should follow up your lead. You can ask questions to lurkers, vote lurkers and ask the mod to prod lurkers.

Overall though with KOC, I get a very scummy D1 play, and a more neutral D2 play, which is the only real reason I have him below Corin on my suspicion list.

FoS Knight of Cydonia

even though I still love that song, long time Muse fan.

I am now open to questions and comments since I feel fully caught up so fire away

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote Knight of Cydonia

Lets get a response to my case in 393 and what CFRs 398 had to add this time instead of a odd post about Gimbo (me) being odd around FL who you are currently voting.

Anything else against FL that you have to offer us too? Your current case sure doesnt sound to compelling to me.

I agree with Spyrex though, it would be nice to at least here intentions of voting from the people who arent. In fact there are multiple people who we havent even heard from yet today.

@mod

last votecount is a little off, spyrex and firestarter are voting. And FS is voting me but it still reads Gimbo

[LlamaFluff]

Just a question for Llama: Have you switched votes because Knight has acted scummier than Manito, have you just changed your mind about Manito, or something else?

Ive gotten some answers from Manito that I am mulling over still, and I still hold him as a top three suspect. KoC has however ignored my case against him in entirety while seeming to make a passive attack against me, for something my predicesor did. This attacks merits also to somewhat be in direct confliction with how he is voting right now, as well. Once I get some answers from KoC and Corin, I should be able to make a better decision on everyones scummy level.

To shorten it all up though, given how KoC acted after I presented my case and the things CFR added, he is above Manito on my scum list right now

[LlamaFluff]

lol, I'm averaging 3 posts a day because I'm playing two different games now, and I'm new to the site...

Misinterpreted, D1 you were lurky, D2 you have picked up posting, possibly due to being under fire.

Passive defense? How is fact hunting a passive defense...?

The facts you were looking into implied innocent forbiddan

The entire forbiddan fiasco was a tough call, because there was so much discussion on both sides. In the end, I didn't feel that forbiddan's defense was anything more than OMGUS, which was not enough to convince me to retract my vote.

Fair enough

"I'm not playing like town" - in whose eyes? Since you're a replacement, I'll cut you some slack, but let's not forget that technically speaking, you're the one who hammered when there was still a lot of discussion going on. That wasn't a particularly town move. I didn't push for her lynch because that isn't what I typically do, if you read over my other posts. I prefer to post the facts as I see them, and let people make up their own minds, rather than trying to be forceful and coercive...

Well this sounds OMGUSy. Town tries to get scum lynched though, even if it requires being forceful and coercive at times.

Suspicion? You call counting my posts being suspicious of me? My "playstyle" picked up because FL's playstyle changed drastically, and actually gave me a reason to post. Up to that point, it was largely watching a boring battle of FS and forbiddan yelling and namecalling back and forth. No logic, nothing but a bunch of OMGUS back and forth...

You could of tried to stop them if you felt it was detrimental to the town. I still don’t like the turnaround in playstyle either, it seemed like FL hit a nerve more then you suddenly feeling compelled to talk.

-

...Yes, I did tunnel into the start of the game a bit, so what? I considered forbiddan to be the most scummy - indeed, pretty much the only person at that point to have posted any kind of scum-tell.. And if you actually look at my posts, you'll see I also took a look at killa7, my other main suspect. All I'd be doing by posting what I think of everyone else is repeating "I'm not sure, hasn't seemed scummy yet" another 14 times.

Well, I find it a bit hard to belive that you never found anyone else scummy day one. Tunnel vision really isn’t helpful either way though. It took you six game related posts to even mention K7 as a suspect though, so it didn’t sound too much like he was even close to forbiddan, more of a backup plan in case something derailed the forbiddan wagon.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you wanted fl kept around to confuse us for the next lynch, and the next, and the next.[/n]

I would of rather had her around. Ive had to play a game with Gimbo before, he was annoying, scummy, crude and guess what? We didn’t lynch him, he was town, town won. Don’t start basing lynches on peoples playstyle or that they are erratic and confusing players. Town is town, it’s a body scum has to kill at somepoint.

[

Wow, way to completely misread my post. I said I was less certain of killa than fl, and that I was leaning towards town on him, not that he was town. I would have been leaning town on him still, if he wasn't lurking so deliberately. And if you're calling me picking out forbiddan as scum as a tell, you have 8 other players, including yourself, to look at.

My problem with this post was “Im leaning town on him [Killa]” coupled with “If fl is scum(and im sure she is), so is he.” Your logic puts K7 at town on a read, but put him at scum on a pairing, which leaves open a door saying “K7 is town” given fls flip, but if she flipped scum gave reasoning to persue K7.

Well, he was lurking, and it was being done very cleverly, posting fluff just enough to avoid a prod, whilst still managing to lure forbiddan into that lynch. That was my case - he's lurking, and deliberately avoiding attention. We have no good roles, AFAIK, so the only explanation to lurk is as scum.

Lurking on its own is not really a scumtell, there has to be something done beforehand that adds on to the situation. Corin isn’t 100% scum because he hasn’t posted D2, you aren’t 100% scum because the player you replaced was inactive.

Agreeing with a case isn't parroting. And I was the first to comment on the way his posting style has changed from calm to relatively agro

I still err on the side of a parrot here. While you didn’t explicitly “agree with all the evidence, vote FL” you did add some fairly weak evidence which I think meta basically destroys. Have you metad FL yet?

I can't ask for a prod when he's lurking in open sight, which is what he's doing. He's posting, just with absolutely no content, barely a line or two. He's also completely ignored several questions I've asked of him - or do those not find your strung together case?

You can still ask for a prod, you can still vote him. Complaining really wont do much it seems so why the unwillingness to take it to the next stage?

Oh, and if you're accusing me of avoiding your case, why didn't you vote Corinthian ahead of me, since he too didn't answer your case immediately, and was apparently higher on your list? Looking for an easy target?

You posted after I put up my case. In that post, you mention Gimbo (me) acting flaky and scummy towards a possible vote of FL. You not only managed to ignore the case I laid out against you, but also OMGUSed me a bit. I still don’t think you have answered the questions that CFR presented to you as well. Because of all that, I voted you so I would finally get your attention and it worked, (ironically this is what I said you should of done to K7).

[LlamaFluff]

Ummm, okay, where the hell did I OMGUS you? I haven't voted you or Gimbo, and all I ever commented on Gimbo was that he was hard to read, and that the reason-less hammer and "shit" post could be taken a variety of ways. I said I was unsure of Gimbo, and the same goes for you, and everyone else here, since I haven't played regularly with any of you, and have no meta to go on.

You OMGUSed me in post 396. There was no direct vote or FoS, but given the context of the game, it was a passive shot at me intented to make me look worse. To make this more interesting, and something that I missed before, it was actually in response to Jouberts 395, which asked clarification of an attack on Gimbo. So instead of answering my case that was presented in 393, you decided to ignore that case and instead talk about a case against me. That falls in the OMGUS category to me.

I'm not psychic. I can't refute your case before you post it. At least I've replied, Corinthian hasn't posted in so long he needs to be prodded. BY your logic, you should be voting him because he's higher on your list (apparently), and to get his attention.

Again, timeline went as follows : first I post a case against you in 393. Joubert questions you in post 395. You respond to Joubert, furthering a case against Gimbo in 396 while ignoring my 393. No psychicness needed here. You ignored what I had to say and pushed Gimbo as scummy in the same post, which is scummy in my book and put you ahead of Corin. Also if you read my post carefully, I said your D1 was really scummy to me, but your D2 was much better. However with 396 you returned to scummy to me, and earned my vote. I look forward to responses to CFR.

Now Corin has done the same ignorance crime as you though, so

unvote
vote Corinathin

untill I get some answers to 392

[LlamaFluff]

So Llama's going to jump his vote around to try and make people talk? Yeah, that's helpful.

(What the hell is a "same ignorance crime?")

Well if you arent going to respond to points I made against you, voting is a good way to actually snap your attention to the points I am trying to make. I voted KoC at one point because he was posting without really responding to a case I made against him either. It took a vote to get his attention and it seems like the same concept applied here.

I looked at 392. It's a really big post, but Llama never actually asks any questions in it.

So what do you want, Llama? Commentary on your commentary?

Yeah, thats the way cases go normally. People make accusations, people respond. It is not people make accusations, people ignore them because they arent phrased as a question. If you want though you can imagine an "Am I right?" at the end of every paragraph I wrote.

[LlamaFluff]

I still think we should be lynching KoC, mantio or Corin here instead of FL. None of them have really given me any reasons so far this game to start making me think that they are town.

KoC is being OMGUSsy and ignoring cases against him today after tunneling and policy lynching fl D1

Manito was overagreeable and is now pushing a weak case on FL, which he now seems content letting others lead

Corin hasnt even responded to my post and has been a shadow with a vote this whole game

[LlamaFluff]

This is Fae's general meta. At worst its null, its possibly town. He is a poor lynch.

QFT lets get to lynching KoC/manito/Corin

[LlamaFluff]

It wasn't a policy lynch on my part - I believed she was almost certainly scum. However, you have to admit, not havig her around this day has actually allowed us to have a much wider look at teh whole group, instead of focusing on forbiddan.

For the hundredth time! A body is a body. Town wins when there are no scum, scum wins when they outnumber town. Everyone counts to town though, the people like gimbo who are off the wall insane, the people like me who are building cases, the people like K7 who lurk and the people like forbiddan who do weird things. They ALL are bodies that are essential to the win. EVERYONE counts, it doesn’t matter who they are they all are essential to the town winning. I count as one town, Faerie counts as one town, LTG counts as one town, no one is more important to have number wise, ever. With that said, forbiddan counted as town, she was a body that could help us win. Instead, you seem quite happy that she is dead, which I don’t understand. We lost a body, we are closer to losing, so why do you keep saying that lynching her was the right move and a good thing?

Also how is this

I honestly think if the town doesn't lynch forbidden after quite possibly the scummiest first day I ever did see, we're screwed. Anyone who acts this scummy as town is a hindrance, and anyone who acts so blatantly obvious as scum is a gift.

And like my mum says, never refuse a gift. Because you can always get store credit.

Or this

anyone who acts this way as town is a hindrance

Quite frankly, m'dear, if you are town, I'd be almost as happy to see you go. You're doing nothing by playing this way other than helping the Mafia.

Or even this

I said I'd be almost as happy. That doesn't mean I'm voting for you whether or not you're town - it means if you aren't scum, you're screwing up our first lynch, and it's better than we find out what you are now, than let you confuse us further, when it's down to 4/5 to lynch.

How are all those not pushing us towards a policy lynch. You basically are saying that no matter what fl is she needed to be lynched. Right there, no questions asked. That is a policy lynch.

And if you want to call it a policy lynch, by your own logic, there are 8 other people who should be suspected. 9, including yourself, since it's a policy lynch to lynch anyone advocating a policy lynch. I'm certainly not OMGUSing - if I was, I'd have thrown out about 5 votes by now, in response to CF Riot and your cases - neither of which I ignored, so saying I have isn't going to fly. I responded to both of you. If I was scum, I'd probably be voting you at this point. I'm not, because I believe you're town, like me.

Not everyone wanted a policy lynch. Most people were pushing for her being scum and trying to figure out if she was or was not. You were the only one who seemed intent on getting her lynched regardless of what her alignment was. Also you never vote OMGUSed me, there are many levels. After my case, you mentioned how Gimbo looked scummy while not commenting on the case. This is OMGUS, you made an attack at your attacker. Also nice WIFOM-OMGUS there. So now we are supposed to assume you are town because if you were scum you would be OMGUSing you? That is just weird.

And calling the FL case weak is... well, a bit dumb.

Ok maybe weak wasn’t the best choice of words. At this point though I do not see myself voting for FL because I think that he is town. This is not as much guided by actions of FL, but its due to where the attack on FL is coming from. Early in D2 I listed my three scum, at this point, every one of them are voting FL. Now this is either some intense bussing, or a mislynch push. I feel that my ability to call scum is good enough to be able to put the FL wagon at a mislynch given what I think of the pushers.

[LlamaFluff]

We're all calling FL the proverbial "horse" here, and we're basing it off of what we see. You're saying FL

isn't

a "horse" just because we're all saying he

is

- and

not because of the evidence in front of you.

Well sometimes you need to look at the picture as a whole. You seem to be inclined to think K7 and FL are scum. If both of them suddenly went after someone, would that make you think that player was more or less townie? When I see people I think are scum trying to get someone lynched I view them as more town.

Its also meta. If you havent you seriously should go look at how FL plays in other games. As town, its very similar, sure it looks scummy, but its his playstyle. Honestly, go meta and tell me his actions are still so scummy. With my top three people voting him though, and knowing the meta knowlage that I do, I will NOT be voting for FL.

[LlamaFluff]

There's a big difference between saying someone is hindering the town as townie, and saying they should be lynched regardless. I considered forbiddan to be scum, I voted her on that basis.

All you've done is artfully pick out comments that make it look like I'm saying "lynch her whatever".

All of us on the forbiddan lynch reckoned she was scum.

But you should never have anything to quote that says or can be interpreted as this. You even said that three times. Maybe once is excusable when you lose emotion controll, but at three points in D1 I interpreted this stance on fl from you. I am not arguing the fact that you didnt vote fl based on a scum read. What I am arguing is the fact that you seemed to want her lynched regardless and really were not about to take any alternative as an option.

You replace in saying that you want a indepth look at fl. It took you six posts to even mention anyone else. Apart from K7, you only mention the manito/FL fight breifly, but to further the fl case. Tunnel vision abounds in your D1, everything you said was aimed at taking fl down a peg, and chalking her up as scum. K7 gets one post of mention, but that is promptly forgotten, letting this wagon go untouched. Manito/FL was the second thing that stood out that day, and you seemed to call it as a shot against fl. Again, not taking anything else as a possible case, fl was going, no matter what, and everything that happened made her more scum to you.

Also, I did comment on the Gimbo case - I said

The reasonless hammer, combined with the "shit" post, could be read a variety of ways. For that reason, I'll be keeping an eye on Gimbo.

shortly before you replaced in.

And then after I presented my case you clarified your case against Gimbo instead of answering me. It took a vote to get a response.

Please, Llama. just give it up. I'm fairly sure you're town, but the evidence you're using is flawed, and nobody agrees with you, apart from armlx, who has magically decided to start posting properly now, as soon as Firestarter points out he's been short-posting - which, looking over his last posts, is generally true. There's about two posts in 1.5 that have decent content, the rest has been regurgitating the cases of others, word for word.

So if people dont agree with me at the time I have to be wrong? This I dont really get. When I think im right I am going to push your case. Also why do you feel that you need to turn this around into an attack against Armix? It seems like you are trying to undermind my attack more then defend against it from that post.

Oh and how many times do I have to re-iterate:

Honestly, go meta and tell me his actions are still so scummy.

GAH! Meta is a WIFOM at best, useless to divine scum, and leads to mis-lynches at worst. Don't use meta to defend people. Give me evidence within this game, evidence of FL's township, not the scumminess of other people.

meta is a little more then WIFOM to me so I am not going to just dismiss what I know from FL in other games. As ive said before though, with my three scum picks becoming the triforce trying to get the same person lynched. I am NOT going to support that lynch. While I am not absolving FL of all scummy behavior, I feel that who is pushing this wagon is more suspect then the person being pushed.

LlamaFluff(I'm still leaning town, but an assault of this length is starting to look a little desperate.)

OMGUS? You have been pushing FL this whole day and seem intent on getting him lynched, wouldnt that mean that you are scum by your own logic?

[LlamaFluff]

Wait, llama - are you saying that I started this train and three scum jumped on it in succession or that I'm scum?

I have KoC, Manito and Corin as my scum right now. You could even see Manito starting a push on FL easy D1. Corin made his mark in 293 so it was simple to predict a jump on FL today. KoC voting wasnt quite as suspected to me as the others, in fact his comment on Manito/FL made it even more confusing since he seemed to call manito scummy for misinterpretation on FL.

So your former, I think scum are just riding an easy FL wagon that was set up during D1.

@mod

can we get a prod on Corin?

[LlamaFluff]

I understand your thought process and I'm not making statements about their alignments since I dont know, but it would seem really odd for me to have scum be the 2nd-4th votes on a wagon. One I could see, POSSIBLY 2, but not all 3.

Of them, Corin strikes me as the most off, mostly because he's been lurking. I'm trying to stay out of further debates for a bit with FL (to hopefully spark different discussions).

KoC strikes me as most off because out of the three I didnt expect his vote landing there as much, remember it was on me untill I replaced in. Manito had made it perfectly clear that he was going after FL during D1, Corin made strong hints at it.

Also remember that only Manito was voting FL before I started writing my PBPA and cases, KoC voted during my catching up. Corin never voted untill after I presented my case on him.

[LlamaFluff]

Interesting thoughts there about your so-called Triforce. So does that make you Link or Ganon? My problem is it's an awfully big risk to put quite a few eggs in one basket, like the mafia would have to do, to basically line up against FL. I'm always leery when someone suggests possible suicidal plots if they go wrong incredibly early in a game. I also have to caution that you are leading the town towards a case of "let's all lynch these guys and ignore everyone else." Your "hit list," as it were, is basically inviting us to tunnel in on these guys and that may not be the best thing from the town's point of view. Trying to create "theories of everything" to explain the progressions of wagons and how the mafia operates never works out. The reasons for courses of actions can be totally wrong and details are never exactly right. Let alone, random chance and mob mentality. It's an awfully big risk for the town as well. If we're wrong we could end up with a lot of mislynches.

Ganon... love that up-B. I would rather lynch any of my three picks instead of FL without much hesitation. During the first day, manito and corin both made moves to setting up a FL lynch, given that fl flipped town, this seems to of bolstered their case a bit. Now when I see people looking like they are setting up a lynch, having town flip D1, and moving on to the player it seemed like they were moving to immediately, I get huge alarms going off. KoC is a little different, he never commented much on FL day one, although mentioned manito/FL being distracting. D2 he quickly locked in on him though.

I am not persay trying to get people to tunnel to my three picks either, but given my views on FL, I am trying to provide better alternatives to that lynch, and I encourage people who feel along the same lines as me to take the same course of action. I would greatly prefer one of these three people lynched since according to what I have they have a much higher chance of being scum then anyone else. You also accuse me of tunnel vision, while most of the FL voters are guilty of the same crime, while they occasionally will throw K7 in there (which they all seem to like as well), no real discussion comes from these players apart from defense of me going after them.

So I have three players who I consider suspects, who seem to of set up a FL lynch day one while getting fl lynched, who are now tunneled in on the same player, I really dont know what to be doing except for trying to get them lynched.

[LlamaFluff]

Wow, thats a lot of back and forth between armix and FS, pages of PBPA arguments hurt the eyes.

I guess my first request, to each of you is to make more sensical cases. I understand the benefits of PBPA, but I always have a hard time really formulating the stance of the aggressor in those, because it isnt as magnified as a normal case.

With that said, FS, you take the "nothing added" path too many times, a lot of armix's posts do lack signifcant substance, but they do however answer what is quoted most of the time, and keep people on a good track. There are some miffs, but a lot do accomplish what they intended. Your vote on him appeared preemptive to me too, as it mostly seemed a pressure vote asking "make that case", I also agree with him that your actions could easily be percieved as distancing, three days before the lynch you became against it, working up to asking no one to hammer.

After armix voted fl though you start making some logical case sense to me. If you could though just a bulleted case of why Armix is scum. Like I said its hard to read through pyrimids and pages and always pick out the main points.

On to Armix on FS...

There are a lot more solid points here, mostly thanks to PBPA, of so many posts. The underlying problem here is the lack of a case case, meaning that there is really no direction presented to look in. It seems to be more of a "here are the facts" type post. Analysis of FS-17 is the most prevelant example of this attitude, called odd, but you come up indecisive to it in the end.

This mostly is giving me a headache. Both of you seem to be going for the kill making the emotional part spill over a bit into the logical part, making it even more headache inducing. However, I really think that a case that looks something like this:

Player X is scummy because
-Point A
-Point B
-Point C
-Point D

would be nice to hear from each of you. Because at this point there are some vaild statements that both of you are presenting, but they are lost in a vortex of words and quote blocks that really are taking away from them, and are giving me a hard time identifying the essentials for the cases.

Right now I like FSs case a

little

more then armix's, but still neither of the cases are coming close to my personal picks right now.

[LlamaFluff]

Points to be made here...

Firstly is something that recently happened that

kinda

really pissed me off. Corin came back, for one post, to throw out some one liners about FL is scum, and meta isnt helpful. Well that great! A nice case for us there to read through, we really know what you are thinking. However, my case *again* is not even touched by Corin. Much frustration here for me.

Secondly, anyone else still being pinged by manito? I LOVE his one post where he "analyzes" everyone. Once you take out players he is more then 60/40 on, which is where I consider having a read on players, he made analysis on just three people. FL at scum and Spyrex and armix at town. Again connecting the three players, KoC is a no read, when I had a case on him already, Corin is given 60% town read on a 'feeling'. This is probally one of the most noncommital posts I have seen this game.

Right after this manito actually seems to grow a pair and starts pushing the FL lynch. Sure it had to be prompted by CFR saying that manitos case seemed weak, but we finally get a case. A few interesting points in that case though involve Spyrex's word being taken as "word of god" and FL called scummy for doing something different. Calling the vote of FL on manito without strong evidence, which I definantly see as being there, manito has never left my top three after replacing into this game.

Then we have a few "meta is stupid" posts, furthering his case on FL. Attacking me for defending FL (little OMGUS?). Then his analysis on Armix/FS bugs me. He sides with FS against armix (who seems to be winning at this point) however during his analysis he had armix 80% town and FS 60% scum, this is a fast turnaround.

Finally a little bit of meta bashing and asking for K7 to get replaced. Thats manito for you.

I still want my case answered by Corin who really hasnt done anything today to make me think he is town, but manito is one of the best lynches we can get today. He is being fence-sitty as shown by analysis, he is not really going full force on a FL lynch, more underming meta then going for a lynch, and really made a fast turnaround regarding armix, one of the only people who he was sure of during his analysis.

[LlamaFluff]

[

A few interesting points in that case though involve Spyrex's word being taken as "word of god" and FL called scummy for doing something different.

Whos in the what now? I missed something.

From manitos case against FL

Spyrex directly asks FL in Post #223 to state any reason why forbiddan's lynch wasn't solid. FL didn't have to post the other cases, he just needed to provide information to the contrary of forbiddan's lynch. Rather than do that though, FL decided to post other cases

This led to the conclusion FL=scum, hence you having "word of god" powers over manito, which I dont see why town would ever let anyone have that over them

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, I think thats only a part of his case, but I dont think its the word of god on my end but the inaction on the other that led him that way?

Then why mention what you said in his case? Instead of coming to the conclusion that it was scummy by himself, or what or what not was the right thing to do, now he has your name to pin part of his suspicion on if FL flips town.

While he did eventually say that FL was scummy for actions, the fact remains that he partially used logic of someone who he called town to help further his case. Manito should be drawing conclusions on what he believes are town and scum tells, not using tells of people he percieves alignment on and from there deciding that moves have alterior motivation.

Boiling it down, there was no need to add what you said to the argument that FL is scum. By doing so, it makes the argument less his and more of a collective, that later can be pointed to and said "this was Spyrex driven, not from me"

[LlamaFluff]

I want Killer to post more content. At heart, I'm still seeing this as a lurker lynch and I have a hard time agreeing with that this early.

QFT

I still would rather see manito, Corin or KoC go today then anyone else, manito should respond to my last post, especially the part regarding his analysis, and Corin still is leaving my case untouched.

[LlamaFluff]

Seriously, what is with this desperate tunnel vision on me, Manito and Corin?
And to me, it lokos like you don't actually have a case on me. I've refuted any and all points made against me, so why are you lumping me in with Manito and Corinthian? Do you just feel the need to fill up a neat trinity, or do you want to make sure you never have to try and find some evidence on anyone else?

Just because you have answered questions I have posed does NOT mean that I think you are town. Your interactions seem closely related to other players, I think the way you played day one was scummy, and today you are pushing a wagon that I consider to be a mislynch. The vote of Bogre after calling FL scum for so long makes me think you are scum as well, sure it was an ugly vote, but abandoning a case you have been adament about all of the day for it? Doesnt feel right, especially considering how fast it went back to FL.

If you are calling me tunneling on you, I think the same applies to you on FL, occasionally you poke around the current hot topic like you did with Borge and K7, but FL seems to be the only person you really ever make a push to get lynched.

You three are my top scum picks, so why should I be afraid to be pushing a case against you? Nothing you have done has convinced me otherwise, your play is scummy, and the fact that when only I am pushing you and that sending you into overdefensiveness is scummy.

[LlamaFluff]

Just out of curiosity, the main case on K7 seems to be a mix of lurking and backseat driving on the fl lynch correct?

If that is true, why are we seeming to ignore Corin? For most of the first day, he was voting fl, but never pushed her too hard. A vote, a few comment directed at her to make her seem scum, but he let other people like FS do a lot of the fl-scum arguing. During the end of the day, he even was starting to make jabs at FL, stop talking about fl, and today guess who he is voting? Once again though, he is in the backseat, just leaving it at a vote. Now he is occasionally poping in to throw a few one liners at FL, and still ignores my case against him.

Am I the only one who sees a similarity here?

[LlamaFluff]

Corin needs to respond to my 392
Manito needs to respond to my 576
K7 needs to do something productive
BlckKnght needs to do something period
People needs to not be voting FL
People need to be voting Corin
FS/Armix need to make some sense
Joubert, K7 and BK need to vote

[LlamaFluff]

Would you be willing to vote Killa, on the guarantee that if he flips scum, I will listen to whatever case you want to make against Corin, whose only crime I can see is lurking?

Amazingly, K7 is absolutely right about this being very scummy. You are attempting to get me to vote with you under the premise of if K7 is scum then you will listen to me. You also are ignoring all the points I brought up against Corin in my past posts, saying that he simply is guilty of lurking. While that is part of my suspicion it in no way is my only suspicion of him.

You also have the wording in that post to say if K7 is scum, I dont think Corin is scum because they are behaving simillary. Again, this is poor logic and really mocking my case. From what I gather, you have K7 and Corin as either scum buddies or both town. The refusal to vote Corin over K7 is noted, along with the relationships you are drawing from this. This is blatant attempt at buying my vote to your cause, which if anyone has ever played with me is something they know I will never do.

I will vote K7 if I think K7 is scum. Right now there are people who are more then part then he is, so they will be getting my vote, not K7.

[LlamaFluff]

By the way, LF, why should everyone vote absolutely?

No one is in danger of a lynch. A vote is a traceable thing too. If I make a case or start saying I suspect someone, and later that person is lynched. Regardless of what part I played in that lynch, I can refrence my earlier actions and overplay or underplay how much suspicion I really had on them. A vote means you really do suspect someone and wouldnt mind a lynch. Calling someone suspicious is noncommital when compared with a vote. There is no reason NOT to vote out of lylo.

[LlamaFluff]

@mod

please prod Corin again, this is getting annoying for me. He posts, disappears for 72 hours untill he gets a prod and posts again. BlckKnght needs a prod too I think.

@CFR - Which wagon is better, FS or KoC? Why?

[LlamaFluff]

Joubert, K7 and BK need to vote

By the way, LF, why should everyone vote absolutely?

Allow a rephrasing to those three players -

Today is deadline, and due to a rip in the space time contineum, everyone is at L-1. If you dont vote, we no lynch. Who do you vote? Why?

[LlamaFluff]

Ha. Llama, way to jump the bait. How many times do you need to ask CFR who to vote for?

I will answer that once CFR actually decides to back up his posts with a vote.

I think Killa is scum. I'm also entertaining the idea that he and Corin are matching play-styles deliberately. As we have no pro-town power roles, the only reason for this would be a reverse WIFOM "Killa is lurking, so if I lurk as well, no-one will expect us to work together" as part of the Mafia. When Killa flips scum when lynched, I would seriously consider looking harder at Corin based on the way the both of them kept out of the way of the forbiddan lynch, whilst still pushing it along merrily.

So if K7 is scum, then Corin is scum based on your WIFOM deductions of similar playstyles?

However, I'm also VERY interested in the constant Llama/CFR interplay - it looks like Llama is constantly asking CFR for guidance, see 634 for one good example, and there are other posts through-out the day where Llama seems to be sounding out CFR as to which of his blinkered little Mafia Entente he should push a case on at the moment.

Yeah 634 is me trying to figure out why CFR is not voting if he has only two suspects, given that both have been pushed just a little but not a lot I am wondering if he is just waiting for a wagon to pick up speed before he jumps on. This is closely related to my 627, it made my last question more specific.

I'm also getting increasingly dismayed by the way both of them are seeking to blinker the town into a mislynch, by refusing to consider any case other than those they've decided to pursue - scummy, in my eyes, because any good town should be willing to be swayed.

I dont think FL is scum. I think that Mantio, Corin and you are more likely scum then K7. If I dont think the same way as you do or reach the same conclusions that does not mean I have to be scum. If someone provides something I view as a better suspect, I will change my vote accordingly.

There have been far better cases against other players this day, yet they choose to pursue rather weak cases, or to pursue Corin for doing exactly what Killa 7 did - oh, but Killa isn't scummy. *rolls eyes*

Oh come on, I have more of a case laid out againt Corin in 392 then I have seen lined up againt K7. Corin has even been deliberately ignoring my case while pushing a player I think is town. If that doesnt read scum I really dont know what does.

Note that as soon as CFR began to leave Manito alone and focus on Corin, and dissuading the FaerieLord wagon, Llama did too - and the pair of them went on to look at Corin. Now, as a new case based entirely on... me wording my previous post poorly, emerges, Llama instantly looks to CFR for guidance before considering making a move.

We got a comedian here folks! I think that I was the first person to put a decent sized case against Corin, to vote Corin and to be persuing Corin. If anything my moves have been more novel then anyone elses so far. If you consider me asking questions to CFR buddying up, thats how I play when I cant really figure out what someone tends to be thinking. Its my misson in games to make people actually vote which allows easily traceable suspicions. See my post @Joubert for more information on this issue

I don't like it. I'd be willing to bet that at least one, but likely both Llama and CFR are scum, and certainly K7 - with CFR and Llama's buddy-plays constantly diverting attention away from him, I get the feeling these two are trying to retain the numbers to make it easier to get the edge over the town late-game, but are finding it increasingly difficult to ignore Killa's scum-tells in open play.

I find this again funny. Now you have dropped FL completely to make me-CFR-K7 the scum trio. This is mostly from what I can tell, the fact that we are not pushing the K7 case because we like other ones more. Also I like your level of confidence that lets you put "when" instead of "if" for K7. That is pretty sure to of been chasing FL the whole first part of the game.

[LlamaFluff]

Yeah I havent seen a deadline either. I did bring it up as an example of a situation to make the nonvoters act which is probally what you read. Made the wrong person act...

Hindsight using the word hypothetical in there would of been better, at least we know who SPyrexs #2 is though

[LlamaFluff]

Would you be willing to vote Killa, on the guarantee that if he flips scum, I will listen to whatever case you want to make against Corin, whose only crime I can see is lurking?

This statement at first really bothers me, but I think I understand what he's saying "You're voting for lurker X, I'm voting for luker Y. If you vote for X and he's scum, I'd be willing to listen to lurker Y being scum (as, I feel, between the two lurkers X has shown more scummy behavior).

Honestly, at this point, I think both should not be lynched but, between the two, I think K7 has behaved scummier.

This is not the point I am trying to make. I think Corin is scum, I thought he was scum BEFORE he started lurking, so I am not saying "zomg lynch all lurkers". I am saying lynch Corin because evidence points at him being scum.

This entire comprimise is scummy because it is for one taking my case out of context, and second of all, it is requiring to have me place my vote where I am not happy putting it, when a return really isnt even a sure thing.

Him asking me this would accomplish the same as me asking him to vote for Corin before he trys to get K7 lynched. It makes no sense to even be thinking that this benifits town.

[LlamaFluff]

Corin should be replaced pretty soon given how many 72 hour prods he has, third time usually is the charm. I dont think it is possible to get a reaction out of him if he refuses to pay attention or post.

Given that we seem to be taking steps towards a lynch I am going to try and put up a wagon I like more then FL and K7 into actions by going and

unvote, vote Manito

. KoC is still a very good lynch, he really is bouncing around today after being so sure-set on FL to start the day. I think he now wants a K7 lynch, and a Bogre one at a point.

My case when I placed in still looks strong even with what he has been doing. My 576 still hasnt even been answered, and Manito has again disappeared since he isnt being challenged. Lets see if some votes cause him to reappear

[LlamaFluff]

My 576 still hasnt even been answered, and Manito has again disappeared since he isnt being challenged. Lets see if some votes cause him to reappear

Maybe if you weren't so busy pointing fingers, you would have read Post 579.

Sorry that I haven't had the time to read. Have a lot going on personally that I'd rather not get into here, but since I'm being attacked for not posting reads on the remaining players, I guess I'll have to.

I'm engaged, and currently going through some rough times with my fiancee. I think that is sufficient information to suffice it to say that I could give a fuckaroo about posting my remaining reads here when I have much more important stuff to deal with. If you want the reads, have some patience. Otherwise, back off, please.

Well while I do repect your hardship, you still do drop off the map it seems when not pressured to act. This also really doesnt answer my questions, just created a reason not to answer them for the time being. Given recent developments, it is apparent no one will listen to me and lynch Corin, KoC looks a little more townish, so that leaves you as my push for the day. Sorry if that pisses you off, but its true.

God I hate you, Llama.

Me, Manito, and KoC have all gotten votes from you based on the idiotic idea that it's all right to vote for someone to pressure them into responding to you.

I refuse to respond to that kind of bullshit.

I love you too snookums. You know what though? People seem to not be willing to take me 100% seriously in this game for some reason, im not sure if because I replaced but no one is listening to what I say. They just argue without giving me a "I agree" or "youre wrong". What does that leave me at? The ability to vote to get someones attention, its like firing a gun into the air to get people to look at you. Untill I voted KoC, he ignored everything I said against him. Untill I voted you, I never heard anything about my case. So you know what? If voting to pressure people is the only way people will listen to me, then guess what? I am going to pressure vote. Honestly though, what do I need to do to get you to respond to my case against you? I have presented it, voted you, unvoted you, asked you, had you proded, I mean seriously dude!

[LlamaFluff]

[

@Llamafluff...

Ive seen your case on Corin, and I agree with alot of it, but primarily at this moment, my focus is on K7...
Whats your overview of K7's behaviour?

I kinda appreciate KoC's PBPA of K7, it made the big whirlwind of stuff a little easier to understand key points of. While there are some good points by KoC here such as post 8 and 14. There are irrelevant posts used as evidence (4-7) and some where K7 seemed to get misinterpreted like 12.

Now my main fear of voting K7 is the intereactions with him and TSN. This read as lost townie to me, as he seemed to have zero idea what was going on. Scum tends to be more informed about what is happening at any given point in the game, its just something that comes up again and again for me.

Later in the day though he now looks scummier as he is taking an OMGUS stance towards KoC, who was not mentioned in his other posts. While I still hold KoC as a decent lynch, the fact that he ignored quite a few bickering posts inbetween us make me feel that im being played here. This is from the fact that when FL went after my suspect and my suspects voted her I defended, now K7 is doing and having something similar happen, his choice of KoC sits poorly with me and I get that bad vibe.

For what FS has been saying, im not sure if its just that I dont read your case style well enough, but I couldnt pinpoint a whole lot more then lurking. Maybe the ongoing struggle with armlx hurts my reading of your cases a bit but I dont understand them quite as clearly. Ironically I normally hate PBPA cases like KoC, so few posts makes it bareable in this case.

I still favor a Corin and Manito lynch to K7 hands down, and would hammer either of those two without second thoughts. KoC is a close one, and who votes where would be very dependant on a decision. To make it short, K7 is a good lynch, not a great lynch, but a good lynch.

My few things to K7 would be

1) Why arent you voting?
2) Can you produce a LoS?
3) What are your views on FL, FS and Manito, the other multivote wagons?

[LlamaFluff]

speaking of lurkers..

Well Im not happy saying it, but I agree. K7 is picking up the lurker vote when its not just him lurking. We have K7/Corin (who should be getting the votes)/Bogre/Joubert who really havent added anything of substance to this game.

@Everyone - Which of those four would you prefer lynching?

If it wasnt obvious enough I want Corin gone

[LlamaFluff]

Ugh. WIFOM, much? All I'll say is, I'm not going to look on that either way. It's just icky.

This is right. We are debating people alignments given opinions on how people play the game when they have certain unkown alignments. WIFOM is for after a scum lynch, for today we just focus on lynching scum. The problem with taking a step beyond what happens when player X is scum is we start saying player Y is scum. From there we are trying to prove Y without haven prove X, the correct plan of actions is X-> Y -> Z not Y-> X-> Z.

Im sticking with my manito vote but could really get behind a sudden Corin wagon

[LlamaFluff]

That should have been an

Un-FoS: Knights of Cydonia

.

So anything apart from a vote of Joubert for what I think was random reasoning?

At least give us opinions on the multivote wagons that we have going here

GIRLS DON'T LIKE BOYS GIRLS LIKE CARS AND MONEY

killa seven - 4 (TheSweatpantsNinja, Firestarter, Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX)
FaerieLord - 2 (Manito, Corinthian)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, LlamaFluff)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)
Joubert - 1 (StrangerCoug)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, orangepenguin

15 alive, 8 to lynch.

-Mod

[LlamaFluff]

Will do.

Oh, and:

Unvote: Joonster

That should be an

Unvote: Joubert

. I confused him with a player in another game I'm in.

It would be really nice to actually get a LoS from you. We have no clue so far really whats going on with you. So far you have voted Joubert and left that case when challenged, you have FoSed KoC and took that back for ??? and you have seemingly voted K7 but seem to be waiting on that for some reason.

FLs 743 is a good post

I also still want a response from SC to my 750

[LlamaFluff]

I think this is L-2. No one should hammer him before OP is caught up with his read. I also still think Corin and Manito should go, that last vote from Corin was really ugly looking, I think its the second time he has mentioned K7 the enitre game.

[LlamaFluff]

join me in lynching KOC?

I would rather you join me in lynching manito or lynch Corin instead at this point. KoC is looking better and those two are looking worse right now

[LlamaFluff]

I feel like im talking to a brick wall when I tell people to lynch mantio and corin over K7 but hey, will it hurt to try again?

Look people. I have never played a game with K7 before, yes I realize that he is not really being helpful as a whole, and he comes off as a newer/scummy player. The thing is, this read tends to be very volital in past game I have played in, these people always look scummy. SC* who replaced in seems to be another one of these unfortunate few who comes off as scum in most games, even when he is not scum.

My read on manito and corin** though are not on players that have the newb tell. They are both demonstrating scum tells that when you match them up across multiple games, they end up flipping scum instead of town. This is an observation, but go back in your games and compare the likelyhood of the annoying, lurker being scum to the chance of the fence sitter, the flipflopper, the follower. These players are much, much more likely to be scum. Period.

When you compare tells, we are chasing ghosts here. There are much better options then K7. Most people seem to like ignoring them though, which makes me think that either 1) I am right, or 2) People think im wrong. If its 2, freaking tell me people! I want to know why you dont think im right so I can actually work on proving to you that I am right!



~~~Both these games are finished (dodges mod lightning)~~~
* - StrangerCoug meta and response to 793. In mini 604 he replaced in and joined a very scummy wagon on wierd reasons. When the wagon shifted to him he threw a vote on a lurker for pressure which quickly made that wagon a lynch. Looking at a few other games its constant, this guy gets lynched a lot as town for doing scummy stuff.

** - Corin in mini 608 was cop and was much more active in discussion and helped out in sealing a few scum lynches. His rate of posting was also much more there then it is in here, and the content was much greater. This play is nothing like what I saw in that game when he was town.

[LlamaFluff]

Meta OUGHT to be WIFOM, because each game is a separate entity...

To me meta is something you can use to back up a case or a defense of a player, but not something to soley convict them upon. For example Corin playing differently is something againt him, but it shouldnt be enough to lynch him on by himself. Same with K7, his behavior isnt ideal, while meta is a point to his favor, it doesnt absolve him 100% from being scum.

That said again though, lets lynch Corin or manito, cmon people.

[LlamaFluff]

My read on manito and corin** though are not on players that have the newb tell.

They are both demonstrating scum tells that when you match them up across multiple games

, they end up flipping scum instead of town. This is an observation, but go back in your games and compare the likelyhood of the annoying, lurker being scum to the chance of the fence sitter, the flipflopper, the follower. These players are much, much more likely to be scum. Period.

Just what, exactly, are you matching me up against? I've participated in two games on this website, of which neither has completed, and this one here is the only one I am currently involved in, as I asked to be replaced in the other because of the time constraints/personal issues I mentioned earlier. So just how are you arriving at this conclusion with me, Llama...I'm curious?

Against standards of play on the site and game as a whole. If you look back at most games, scum fall into these types of tells that I mentioned above much more often then annoying lurker. You are displaying these tells, Corin is displaying these tells, KoC has been displaying some of these tells. While K7 isnt the most townie person here, I think lurking and annoyance is where more of his votes come from then proven tells. I am more then happy to join the wagon of whatever player out of the three aformentioned gets to the lynching stage fastest, although Corin and mantio are my prefereances. The mood of the town seems to be calling for the Corin lynch now though, so I am going to

unvote
vote Corin

and ask the people who have been starting to call him scum (armlx, CFR I know have mentioned this) to help get behind this lynch. Its far overdue and looks much better then K7.

[LlamaFluff]

less talking about Corin and more voting Corin would be a very good thing to do here

[LlamaFluff]

I've posted my big PBPA on K7 a couple of pages back - how about you do one on Corinthian? That way we can weigh up the two arguments.

Well I *did* do a case when I replaced in at post 392. Which everyone chose to ignore. If you really want me to though I can do a PBPA of Corin too, there arent many posts of his to go over.

[LlamaFluff]

Corin PBPA (To go along with case in 392) -

my comments in italics

0 - random vote
1 - confused with random stage, sees no armix wagon
2 - says scum can be lynched D1
3 - unvotes with no reasoning
4 - doesnt like K7s vote of fl
5 - doesnt like fl actions
6 - says fl never had a plan, votes fl
7 - starts siding with fl that FS is twisting her words, brings up FS-fl scum pair, brings up town tunnel vision.

This post bugs me. I think it has to do with what Corin said in the beginning of it. That was "fl calls me pro-town". To scum, having a player think you are town is great, and you want them to stick around to help defend you. This feels like what Corin thought about in regards to fl. Up untill this point, he seemed to be wanting a fl lynch, but now he is starting to turn around. He opens doors to FS lynch, he opens doors to get off the fl lynch, and by calling tunnel vision trys to get people to look elsewhere.

8 - metas gimbo, FoS on FL for tunnel vision on fl (who he still is voting)

I dont like this FoS, it sets up a case on FL for if fl flips town. Also Corin is voting for fl, so why would he care if FL wants to get her lynched?

9 - agrees with manito and continues putting out reasoning for an FL vote

This is still sitting uneasy with me. It feels like at this point Corin is getting the 1.5 lynch all lined up. He has given up pressuring fl and has moved on to going for someone who is pressuring fl at the time.

10 - Comments on manito/FL debate while still voting fl. Asks fl and FS to weigh in on that debate.

11 - WIFOMs fl self-hammer debate. Questions K7s disapearance.

12 - Votes FL for wanting fl lynched to move the game along.

This feels like what he was setting up near the end of D1 with posts 8 and 9. During the end of D1 Corin spent more time putting pressure on FL for his stance on fl then he did pushing fl for actually being scummy. Now that fl flipped town, he jumps right in on FL. The main question though here is "Why did he pressure FL D1 for thinking his scum pick was scum?"

13 - Ignores my case and doesnt like me voting

14 - more posting promise

15 - Still ignores my case, pushes FL. Says the meta is pure WIFOM and should be ignored in this case.

16 - More ignoring me, more hating on meta

17 - More hating on me for trying to get a response to a case

18 - Argues how mafia vote

He has voted with a group this whole game, just how mafia are "supposed" to vote according to him

19 - Votes K7

I dont know why we havent lynched this guy at this point. During most of D1, who is he pushing? FL. During D1.5, who is he pushing? FL. What happens when wagons are changing? He abandons the lynch he has supported since seemingly midway through D1 to get on the wagon which is nearing a lynch. If this isnt scum looking for an easy lynch I dont know what it. I gurantee K7 getting lynched and flipping town will find Corin right back on the FL wagon tomorrow.

So yeah, any further questions on why Corin should be getting lynched instead of K7? He has been setting up a FL lynch forever which he recently abandoned in light of a easier wagon, he refuses to answer my cases against him, he dismisses most arguments that defend his suspects, he is obv scum.

[LlamaFluff]

So yeah, any further questions on why Corin should be getting lynched instead of K7? He has been setting up a FL lynch forever which he recently abandoned in light of a easier wagon, he refuses to answer my cases against him, he dismisses most arguments that defend his suspects, he is obv scum.

I saw FL acting funny "forever" and although not forgotten, I have moved my vote to K7 because, although I feel FL is scum, there was no way to make that happen today and K7 HAS been scummy.

Does that make me scum?

Nope, it makes you a little more suspicious to me but I watched your progression of changing votes and it makes sense. Corin went from full out pushing of FL to dropping that case and jumping on K7 out of nowhere. Its not the action alone, its the events surrounding and what led up to the action that play a major part in determining if its scum driven or not.

[LlamaFluff]

I think these debates on "is meta reliable" will really not be too useful. Everyone has thier opinion and tends to stick by it on things like this, its just one of those things that is hard to conivce others of as you can refrence games that support and denounce meta being useful.

What we should be talking about is lynching Corin. That is a great topic for discussion, especially as after my PBPA a few people who expressed early intreset seem to not be wanting to give it a vote, and people who are looking into it have some reservations about this wagon.

[LlamaFluff]

Town doesn't vote someone they think is probably town just to get a reaction.

It's simply not rational to think that voting someone will gently indicate to them that you'd like a reasonable, well-thought out case now, please.

Players lay pressure votes on what they see as potential scum.

Well I see you as scum right now if that wasnt obvious by my posts so far in this game, if it hasnt been maybe I need to be clearer. The point is, my vote of you falls under your third line, I see you as scum and by avoiding my case, people seem to be disregarding your case and going to one I dont favor in comparison. So I am putting a pressure vote on you to get some answers and to get other people to pay attention as well.

This generally provokes an OMGUS reaction, which the pressurevoter then takes as confirmation of their hunch.

Not true. I can vote for quite a few people without getting OMGUSed, although some people seem to OMGUS regardless. If you are saying someone OMGUSing a case against them is a scum tell against the person pushing the case because they are fishing for an overreaction, then I dont know what to say. OMGUS = slight scum tell.

The reason to lay a vote on someone "to make them speak up" is so that they'll say something you can use to attack them with.

*facepalm* no no no. With this logic if I was scum, I would just need to lurk and whoever votes me gets lynched for trying to make me look bad. This sound pretty defensive to me, as you are turning the fact that I am attacking you as a point against me.

Ninja, post 881 was a good way to get a reaction from me. Simple, direct, non-antagonistic questions.

I cant comment on this without losing it.

regarding Faerie: yes, absolutely. I'm voting k7 because he's scummy, too. If they're both scum, then who cares what order we lynch them in?

regarding my play vs k7: this one will take longer to respond to. A big difference would be that despite Llama's best efforts, there is no wagon on me that I would need to hide from.

(Have to go to work now. Will almost surely have time tomorrow for more posting.)

Actually there is a wagon on you right now, and by my quick count, you are tied with K7 for the votelead (at last). The K7 vote seems very opportunistic though when compared to what you had been saying. There were a few mentions of you feeling uneasy about K7, although you never started pushing a case against him. FL was what you spent most of D1 and D1.5 setting up, and when it died out, you left that to move to K7. Now with what you just said, you have it set up to move back to FL if K7 gets lynched (or vice-versa) regardless of what happens with their flips. I am getting a feeling that we have Corin-scum and FL/K7 town here given how he is playing.

I would like to hear from armlx on Corin, he was mentioning him earlier and now we have a bit of a forming wagon and he is sticking to FS debates. Also KoC, FL, CFR and Manito would be nice to hear from on this new wagon.

[LlamaFluff]

I will state this one more time because some people dont seem to be getting it.

Meta is not my primary reason for voting Corin. If I had never seen him in a game before, I still would be voting for him.

While it is used as

an addition

to my case, it is not the primary reason I think he should be lynched. If anyone thinks I want him lynched on meta alone, they are way off.

[LlamaFluff]

Hey, Llama, maybe you should restate your case against me.

My point here: no one but Llama seems to have given any reasons for voting me other than-we want to see you talk.

Faerie is for a Corinthlynch for OMGUS reasons.

Firestarter, Ninja, strangercoug, why do you think I'm scum?

Does anyone else notice that Corin really has not defended himself against me at all? In this post he acknowlaged my attack, but never defended. Instead he tried to turn the tables on everyone that was agreeing with me about my conclusions, by going after them and calling their case weak.

I would like to see a defense from Corin sometime, and also want to know who he suspects outside of FL and K7. He is just latching onto the main targets here and reitterating their cases. Why we keep letting him do this while brushing off my attack is starting to frustrate me.

Also to refrence the latest case against you Corin, that would be post 855.

[LlamaFluff]

Don't either/or the town. I think KoC and FS both look far scummier than either of these people. If you held me down and forced me to pick between those two I'd vote Corin, but as the majority of the town is either split between them or unconvinced of both, I say we drop them today and find someone more people like.

If I remember right, more than a few people said FS was suspicious but none of them had a vote on him. We're all frustrated about the current wagons being stuck in stasis and FS continues to look scummy to me, so why don't we try him on for size today and pick up on K7 and Corin tomorrow after we see what the mafia does?

Also, if that plan doesn't fly, if it comes down to a lurker vote I'm throwing one at Joubert.

I really dont like this. First you want the town to drop its two top suspects because you dont agree with them. The way to get people to agree is to make a convincing enough case to get someone lynched, when I replaced in there were no votes on Corin, now he is a runner to get lynched. You have to realize that they have nine votes between them, which means over half the town wants one of them lynched.

This means there is no one else more people want to lynch first. You want FS and KoC lynched, which arent horrible picks. I was interested in KoC early but given his recent actions I want to see how the cases he pushes turns out, FS again doesnt look very town, but I hold Corin as a much better scum pick. You are supposed to convince me that they are scum more then my personal pick, and that hasnt happened. This does not mean that you should tell everyone to abandon their top choices, which is a poor move to even suggest.

By saying lynch FS today and use the NK to determine who to go after tomorrow just is stupid as well. This is pre-speculating to WIFOM before a kill even happens. If I get NKed does that mean Corin is scum getting rid of me or K7 is framing him? If armlx gets NKed does that mean that K7 is WIFOMing us by getting rid of a defender or Corin making the lynch easier? There are no answers to these situations so bringing them up before they even happens just is wrong.

I also dont like the subtle attack on Joubert, you obviously dont hold him as a high suspect so shouldnt be suggesting him for a lynch. This isnt the time to lynch al lurkers.

I still think Corin is the right move today, when I look at him and K7, he looks much worse. When meta is added its a no-brainer to me.

[LlamaFluff]

Also, if 5 people have K7 as their number one and think Corin is town, and 4 people have Corin as their number one and think K7 is town, but 9 people have FS as their number two, I would consider FS the better lynch. I don't know that this is the situation we have here, I'm just pointing out that a compromise is not as crazy of a suggestion as you make it out to be.

You know what? Something like this might prove interesting. If everyone can list their top three suspects, just copy-paste where the list stands and add on your top three. That way we can see if something like this really is happening or not, as im not really convinced it is. If everyone has a player as high up though, its something worth persuing.

armlx
Joubert
killa seven
FaerieLord
SpyreX
LlamaFluff -> Corin, Manito, KoC
Firestarter
CF Riot
Corinthian
LaptopGun
Knight of Cydonia
TheSweatpantsNinja
orangepenguin
Manito
StrangerCoug

And yes that is a wrong game post from FS.

[LlamaFluff]

Current list stands at

armlx -> Firestarter, CF Riot, K7
Joubert
killa seven
FaerieLord
SpyreX
LlamaFluff -> Corin, Manito, KoC
Firestarter
CF Riot
Corinthian
LaptopGun -> armlx, Corin, Joubert/KoC
Knight of Cydonia
TheSweatpantsNinja
orangepenguin
Manito
StrangerCoug -> Corinthian, killa seven, FaerieLord

With any luck most people will be able to respond by a week to deadline so patterns can emerge

[LlamaFluff]

I hope we won't have to resort to statistics to settle the lynch...

We shouldn't, but getting a mass opinion is good.

And thats the point of this, thanks for adding your thoughts Joubert... shall I put you down for no lynch?

[LlamaFluff]

armlx -> Firestarter, CF Riot, K7
Joubert
killa seven
FaerieLord -> Corin, Manito, Firestarter
SpyreX -> FaerieLord, Firestarter, K7
LlamaFluff -> Corin, Manito, KoC
Firestarter
CF Riot
Corinthian - K7, FaerieLord, Firestarter
LaptopGun -> armlx, Corin, Joubert/KoC
Knight of Cydonia
TheSweatpantsNinja -> Corin, Firestarter, K7
orangepenguin -> killa7, FaerieLord, KoC/Corin
Manito
StrangerCoug -> Corinthian, killa seven, FaerieLord

Six more people to go

[LlamaFluff]

armlx -> Firestarter, CF Riot, K7
Joubert -> K7, FaerieLord, KoC
killa seven
FaerieLord -> Corin, Manito, Firestarter
SpyreX -> FaerieLord, Firestarter, K7
LlamaFluff -> Corin, Manito, KoC
Firestarter -> Corin, K7, Manito
CF Riot -> KoC, Firestarter, Manito
Corinthian - K7, FaerieLord, Firestarter
LaptopGun -> armlx, Corin, Joubert/KoC
Knight of Cydonia
TheSweatpantsNinja -> Corin, Firestarter, K7
orangepenguin -> K7, FaerieLord, KoC/Corin
Manito -> FaerieLord, Joubert or K7
StrangerCoug -> Corinthian, killa seven, FaerieLord

KoC is gone for now but I expect K7, Faerie, Corin from him
K7 looks like KoC, Corin, manito but I cant read him too well

For those of you keeping score right now we have

K7 (10+1?) (armlx, Joubert, spyrex, firestarter, CF Riot, Corin, TSN, mantio, penguin, SC, KoC (?))

Corin (7+2?) (FaerieLord, Llama, Firestarter, Laptopgun, TSN, SC, penguin, KoC?, K7?)

Firestarter (6) (arlmx, FaerieLord, spyrex, CF Riot, Corin, TSN)

KoC (5+1?) (Joubert, Llama, CF Riot, Laptopgun, penguin, K7?)

FaerieLord (5+1?) (Joubert, spyrex, Corin, penguin, manito, KoC?)

Manito (4+1?) (FaerieLord, Llama, CF Riot, Firestarter, K7?)

Joubert (2) (manito, laptopgun)

CF Riot (1) arlmx

arlmx (1) laptopgun

[LlamaFluff]

I don't think the score thing is good as in this scenario it can only lead to purely numbers wagons.

Then what is the point of making the list? I dont think with what was collected we are going to run out and do a quicklynch of one of the top suspects, but this forced everyone to put out three documented FoSs basically. I dont understand why tallying them up is considered a bad thing.

What I want to hear is a strong case on KoC from those attacking him.

Posts 471, 492, 602 and 644 from me are points against him. In this situation Corin and mantio are my 1 and 2 by a decent margin, but if people refuse to lynch either of them KoC is my next suspect.

[LlamaFluff]

Then what is the point of making the list? I dont think with what was collected we are going to run out and do a quicklynch of one of the top suspects, but this forced everyone to put out three documented FoSs basically. I dont understand why tallying them up is considered a bad thing.

I was mainly looking at it to see if there was a distinct overlap in a lower target that would be worth looking into. And

wagons that are just based on those numbers (ie A has more then B) allow for a lot of shameless hopping

.

Given that last post from SC I actually loled after reading this. I also see your point.

What "overlap in lower targets" are you talking about? Cases like KoC, FL and manito?

[LlamaFluff]

Why did Llama decide to speculate on KoC's picks for the list? He didn't give any reasons, either, just threw the names up there. This is two separate points, by the way. First, no one else is trying to guess other people's votes; second- what is the point of a post that presumes the direction of a player's suspicions with no supporting evidence presented? What is Llama hoping to achieve by that post?

This comes across as really OMGUS to me. Its not like he filled them in, only speculated.

This isnt the first time he has used OMGUS to defend himself from attacks, which is another reason I think he is a good lynch today.

@Corin - KoC is on V/LA which is why I speculated. He voted FL quickly day 2, keeps saying you are a good alternative near deadline, and is now voting K7.

[LlamaFluff]

@mod

can you prod K7 please and thanks

[LlamaFluff]

I have a valid point. Llama is putting words in KoC's mouth while he is V/LA.

Well here is what he said about you in two of his recent posts

...Okay, that looks fairly good to me, actually. I can't see anything there that stands out as town-tells, to be honest. I'm willing to go with a Corin lynch today, but I want K7's head tomorrow.

I can see the reasons for the Corin wagon, and they're good, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as good as the K7 lynch.

KoC DOES appear to prefer a lynch of K7 to you, that is not a point I am trying to argue. When you look at his recent posts though it sure seems that he is willing to lynch you too.

Armlx is right about the OMGUS stuff too

[LlamaFluff]

i wish we were lynching koc.

This mindset still wants me to lynch Corin more then K7. K7 not shamelessly wagoning the highest vote getter in his position just give me town vibes.

Also K7 was I right in posting this

K7 looks like KoC, Corin, manito but I cant read him too well

[LlamaFluff]

Except the past page has had more KoC hate then Corin hate.

i put a kase on koc pages ago and asked for his lynch and voted for him.. so whats your point armlx?

I checked, this is right. Post 777 K7 made a bit of a case against KoC. There has been talk about KoC as a backup suspect but the fact that he doesnt have any votes right now would mean K7 would need to start a successful wagon by deadline time.

This KoC suspicion isnt anything unfounded. This is a little WIFOMy but I dont see scum K7 trying to start a wagon based on five people having KoC in their top three suspects. Corin is looking like a better and better lynch compared to K7.

[LlamaFluff]

Can we have an updated "list" please?

armlx -> Firestarter, CF Riot, K7
Joubert -> K7, FaerieLord, KoC
killa seven
FaerieLord -> Corin, Manito, Firestarter
SpyreX -> FaerieLord, Firestarter, K7
LlamaFluff -> Corin, Manito, KoC
Firestarter -> Corin, K7, Manito
CF Riot -> KoC, Firestarter, Manito
Corinthian - K7, FaerieLord, Firestarter
LaptopGun -> armlx, Corin, Joubert/KoC
Knight of Cydonia
TheSweatpantsNinja -> Corin, Firestarter, K7
orangepenguin -> K7, FaerieLord, KoC/Corin
Manito -> FaerieLord, Joubert or K7
StrangerCoug -> Corinthian, killa seven, FaerieLord

I have been speculating on KoC/K7 lists since they never outright posted them, but regardless of who they suspect K7 collects the most FoSs and Corin at a highly likely #2. After that its a ratrace.

Looking in the replacement thread we wont hear from KoC again untill the day of deadline if not day 2. With any luck we can get a replacement in here for the rest of the day

[LlamaFluff]

V/LA from the 11th-13th.

Corin really should be our lynch target instead of K7. I dont know what else I can say at this point. I just ask the K7 voters to read both of these players back to back, especially thier recent posts. There is a difference in mindsets there.

[LlamaFluff]

small FoS

FL, K7, CRF, manito, LTG

With an approaching deadline all of you are clinging to people who honestly wont get lynched unless they admit to being scum. What are your stances on K7 and Corin, and which one is more likely scum?

[LlamaFluff]

Internet ate my first post, this will be a more condensed version.

KoC seems the best path to be taking today, and his opening vote on K7 just strengthens that. I reread a lot of what happened yesterday and I think K7 probally is town that as LTG said "is being railroaded". Part of that thought comes from the lack of any defense people are giving him, even people like armlx who seemed have him leaning town voted him. Another is the way he didnt go with a shameless wagon of Corin, which that close to a deadline I would of expected to see. You can throw meta in there but I dont think its really needed.

The Corin wagon on the otherhand was fairly difficult to push, and when it was competing with the K7 wagon things were interesting. armlx is right in his recent post that put FoS on the people who abandoned K7 for Corin (SC and OP). The Corin wagon had much more resistance and hesitancy. The number overlap gives me pause too, out of the five people who put an FoS on Corin and K7 yesterday, four of them (SC, OP, TSN, FS) went with the Corin wagon. Out of those three players, two have posted (SC and FS) of which SC has returned to the K7 wagon and FS is discussing WIFOM. The spread of the duel FoS people just feels like Corin was lynched when he could, and K7 is left for later.

In answer to CRFs question, my new third pick would be SC. He went back and forth between the K7 and Corin wagon quite a bit yesterday, and now that we had Corin flip town, has jumped right back into the K7 wagon. I still think KoC and manito should be our 1-2 lynch for the day. The cases that CFR and I have made on KoC still stand strong in my eyes, and manito has really done nothing to alleviate my early suspicions of him. He seemed to just stay out of the entire Corin-K7 wagon battle while calling them both town, but doing very little to make other cases appear better or either of the two main wagons appear poor.

In the end though KoC appears to be the better inital wagon so

vote KoC

[LlamaFluff]

Also, Llama, I love the way you're completely failing to explain why you so determined yelled at people to "just shut up and vote Corin already" (paraphrasing from memory), trying to force a Corin lynch when there were far more suspicious people around?

Apparently that quote wasnt taken in the way it was supposed to be. In the posts leading up to this, a whole lot of people had expressed some intrest in the Corin case (CFR-780, armlx-829, FL-833, LTG-846). The post was ment more of a "put your money where your mouth is" wording, as people were starting to discuss him as a lynch but few people actually were voting him. Also I will ask you to please refrain from undermining my case after Corin was lynched by saying "There were far more suspicious people around" and things like that. Especially when I find things like this from yesterday

...Okay, that looks fairly good to me, actually. I can't see anything there that stands out as town-tells, to be honest. I'm willing to go with a Corin lynch today, but I want K7's head tomorrow.

@SC - 1084 was an attempt to see who would try and save Corin. I figured Corin partners that were not voting K7/Corin would jump the K7 wagon near the end of the day. This was a push to see if anyone would jump when threatened a bit. Corin being town nulled the information from this though it seems

[LlamaFluff]

@SC - 1084 was an attempt to see who would try and save Corin. I figured Corin partners that were not voting K7/Corin would jump the K7 wagon near the end of the day. This was a push to see if anyone would jump when threatened a bit. Corin being town nulled the information from this though it seems

This doesn't make an awful lot of sense to me. Why do you say you wanted to say who

would

try to save Corinthian when they effectively

already could have been

saving him by voting someone else? What about those people who genuinely thought both Corinthian and killa seven were town (which we now know is at least half true)? This sounds like you're trying to manipulate other players, and I don't like this.

I think you are missing my point here. I thought Corin was scum and was pretty damn sure of it. The choice was quickly evolving into Corin or K7. There were people who were throwing away thier vote though on others that had no shot of getting lynched at all, which is why I put out that FoS. Using LTG as an example, he was voting armlx. By voting armlx, he would not be protecting Corin as much as he could. By voting someone else who has a close number of votes, he would be protecting Corin more, much like armlx did near the end of the day.

It was an attempt at manipulating the players who were not on either wagon to defend Corin. Given that he was town it was a futle effort, but if he was scum we would of been able to get better reads off the players who reacted when I made that move, which is what I was planning.

You cant save someone by throwing out a vote unless the day no lynches without a majority. You can save someone by jumping on another wagon. Anything else you dont understand about that move?

[LlamaFluff]

Not that I can think of, but this in combination with #847 doesn't look right.

How? You really arent giving me anything that I can defend against here. 847 was three weeks before deadline, it was an attempt to further the wagon I was pushing as it seemed to be stalling out. The last post was a week to deadline trying to see if I could catch anyone jumping to defend Corin when I opened a window.

But seriously, you need to explain yourself better here then "it doesnt look right"

[LlamaFluff]

You're free to state your opinions about somebody and there's nothing wrong with agreeing with them, but as rude as this sounds, people can decide who's scummy without your help, thank you very much. Alone, #847 looks like you're trying to rush the day; it together with #1084 is why I'm accusing you of manipulation.

*shrug* I tend to be an agressive player. I already said this a few times and im not sure if you dont get it or just choosing not to listen. 847 was trying to make people follow through with the talk springing up about Corin being scum. It was not intended to say "Lets lynch Corin this page for serious d00ds!!1! lolz", which is what you keep making it out to be.

1084 WAS me trying to manipulate people to draw out a partner of Corin. You seemed to just ignore my entire last post about this for some reason, I am admitting to it being manipulation and you are just saying "yeah thats scummy" while ignoring my reasoning for the move.

I'm not 100% sure what to make of the list (which was your idea) toward the end of 1.5, though. I'm bringing it up because I can think of how it can be relevant to this case.

????? Ok, I dont get this, seriously. It seems like you want to use my list idea to make me scum but have no idea how to go about doing it, so are using it anyway? Either that or you want someone else to make the connection that then you can use to try and push my wagon.

[LlamaFluff]

I still like my vote on KoC quite a bit right now. There are quite a few still valid points that I brought up during D1.5 that still hold true, and CRF has a pretty damn strong case right now. The recent move by KoC against FL confirms most of my suspicions of him though given that he is attacking based on the movements towards fl near the end of D1.0

KoC claims that FL wanted fl lynched regardless of alignment and that is a reason why we should be lynching him today. KoC however took a similar stance against fl and pushing a case on someone for committing an act that you also commited is pretty damn scummy. The rest of the case against FL seems to be "voted manito", which I am not quite sure why that is a scum action. I like the case against manito quite a bit, and would hop that wagon if someone started it up.

Looking at some of his quotes saying he wanted or didnt mind fl getting lynched

Quite frankly, m'dear, if you are town, I'd be almost as happy to see you go.

which when challenged changed to

I just stated that it makes no sense for a town player to do this, since it only helps the Mafia, and that if you were town, it wouldn't be a loss

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you wanted fl kept around to confuse us for the next lynch, and the next, and the next.

It wasn't a policy lynch on my part - I believed she was almost certainly scum. However, you have to admit, not havig her around this day has actually allowed us to have a much wider look at teh whole group, instead of focusing on forbiddan.

[LlamaFluff]

The rest of the case against FL seems to be "voted manito", which I am not quite sure why that is a scum action.

Wasn't the act of voting for me that was scummy, was the act of saying "I rarely vote" followed by not one, but two instant votes without any precursor or reasoning - one right after lynch (was the first vote after D1 lynch I believe), and then the second vote was a switch right near the end of D1.5 that magically happened to be the "hammering" vote at deadline. Neither of the votes had much discussion to back up the reason for the vote - it was just placed, seemingly arbitrarily.

Both these points are horribly flawed. When FL voted you, I saw it coming. From pages before D1.0 ended I saw this coming on my reread, you and FL were going to be at each other early the next day. The vote didnt come "out of nowhere" if I can see it coming pages away.

The last vote of FL was smart considering his LoS. It was like if the wagons were Corin and Joubert from your perspective. Joubert was on your LoS, but not your top pick. However Joubert would of been a preferable lynch to Corin. Corin was prefered to K7 by FL so he took the perfered path as would anyone.

I noticed armlx did something similar, but you arent on him for it. Why?

Also your LoS by the list was FL, Joubert, K7. Why did you not vote K7?

[LlamaFluff]

I noticed armlx did something similar, but you arent on him for it. Why?

Also your LoS by the list was FL, Joubert, K7. Why did you not vote K7?

[LlamaFluff]

I noticed armlx did something similar, but you arent on him for it. Why?

Also your LoS by the list was FL, Joubert, K7. Why did you not vote K7?

Because K7 was at the bottom of my list?

Do you always start at the bottom of your suspect list?

I don't jump on bandwagons just because everyone else is. We've all seen where that gets us. The only reason K7 is on my scumdar at all is D1 - since then he's been pretty much a complete ghost, contributing absolutely nothing.

Getting really pushy again Llama - even about a past vote. Why do you push so hard for people to hop on wagons?

The LoS was three people because this game has three scum, therefore your LoS you made said "I think the three scum are FL, Joubert, K7". Now even if K7 was not your #1 suspect, he was in your top three. Why would you not want to get one of your top three players lynched over someone you consider town?

Also you are being willfully ignorant with the "start at the bottom of your list" thing. Of course you are going to try and get your top player lynched, but if you cant get them lynched, and your #3 is on the blocks, you are just going to ignore them?

And of course I am pushing you about past votes, you decided not to vote for a high suspect that if placed ahead of FLs vote, that would of got K7 lynched. I am not pushing you to hop on wagons though, I am pushing you because you failed to act of your LoS I think a typical player would.

[LlamaFluff]

Is there a reason people seem to be completely ignoring my recent posts against KoC and manito?

[LlamaFluff]

If This

Bullcrap?

is a response to this

SC: Yes. We made a deal for today. There's no contract or anything holding Spyre to it, but he's accepting it for right now.

Its a pretty good response

[LlamaFluff]

LF what qualms do you have with my deal with Spyre?

You really dont see how this

Ok so make a deal with me. I'm on the fence about both FL and K7. I've wavered towards town on both but can conceive either (or both) being scum. However I really don't like FS, and he's your number 2 anyways. Throw some support towards my FS wagon and based on how it goes I'll vote with you on either K7 or FL in the second half of today. (That means whichever you vote for, I will vote for the same. Not cast my vote on one or the other in spite of your vote.)

is a really bad idea?

[LlamaFluff]

I think its if Spyrex votes for FS today then CFR will vote for whoever Spyrex wants him to tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

...So let me get this straight: we vote FS, lynch him, and then CF et al will throw their weight behind the FL case, and possibly the K7 case as well?
That's a fair enough offer, I suppose. Firestarter has been getting along quite nicely whilst teh FL and K7 cases dominated, mostly, but the case against him is good enough. I'd probably have gone for him after K7 and FL, maybe put him joint third with Llama... I'll play along, on the guarantee of that FL lynch.

unvote; Vote Firestarter

Oh come on... NOW can we lynch KoC? At the beginning of the day he was "sure" the scum were FL, K7 and me, now he is taking the FS lynch cause its the easy option.

[LlamaFluff]

*grumble* still would rather lynch KoC and go from there on FS *kicks can*

[LlamaFluff]

*grumble* still would rather lynch KoC and go from there on FS *kicks can*

Are you opposed to an FS lynch?

I have a much stronger scum read off KoC then I do off FS. If I could just start day vigging people FS would probally go 3.5 behind KoC, manito and SC.

[LlamaFluff]

Most townies would have started on the aggressive again by now, some scum tend to turtle.

Ok can we lynch KoC because of this? Seriously this basically says -

Most town would be agressive (WIFOM) and some scum turtle (WIFOM). KoC is now assigning traits to what all town and scum would do that not only make him "townie" by his own description, but also make his target "scummy" by his own description.

Why cant it be Most scum would be agressive and some town turtle? Easy, FL is on the defensive, it would make him seem town and hurt his case.

What armlx and CFR are saying is true though, people (FL included) do need to vote.

[LlamaFluff]

This and this, right?

Unvote: Knight of Cydonia

, by the way.

So then K7 is scum trying to get KoC lynched? If thats true why did you just unvote?

A WORLD OF THRILLS THAT NEVER END

Firestarter - 4 (CF Riot, armlx, SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia)
Knight of Cydonia - 2 (LlamaFluff, killa seven)
FaerieLord - 2 (Manito, orangepenguin)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)
killa seven - 1 (Joubert)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)

Not Voting - Firestarter, StrangerCoug

13/7

-Mod

[LlamaFluff]

Well, I still like my vote where it is. I still think k7 is acting scummy, or atleast anti-town.

I fail to see how a KoC vote is anti-town.

[LlamaFluff]

Well, I still like my vote where it is. I still think k7 is acting scummy, or atleast anti-town.

I fail to see how a KoC vote is anti-town.

I fail to see how you interpreted orangepenguin as saying a KoC vote is anti-town!

K7 votes KoC, OP comes in and says K7 is acting anti-town. He isnt acting helpful but at least he is voting smart.

[LlamaFluff]

Lesson? Don't use someone's bad grammar or spelling as your defense when you are attacked - you just look guilty and desperate because of it.

Hey look, now manito is using false attacks against FL just like KoC did.

[LlamaFluff]

I still really prefer a KoC lynch right now.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, KoC is a fair direction as well. Do you find FS scummy?

He is scummy but not as scummy ask KoC is. His last few posts were pretty heavy in AtE which I must thank him for doing almost immediately after saying I didnt think he was the days lynch, but I still would rather go after KoC. FS also is just giving me vibes similar to another game I was in with him where everyone had him down as scum and it took a lot of pushing on other people to not get him lynched (he was town in that one).

If the KoC wagon goes belly up, and no one will go for a manito push then I would be fine with a FS wagon. I just think KoC-scum will put FS-town out there given that last scummy vote of KoC.

[LlamaFluff]

In your opinion would a FS-scum put out a KoC-town for that same reason?

It wouldnt be as strong as the other way around but it would be enough to put KoC a lot more in the town collumn to me.

IT'S FUN TO STAY AT THE...

Firestarter - 4 (CF Riot, armlx, SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia)
Knight of Cydonia - 2 (LlamaFluff, killa seven)
FaerieLord - 2 (Manito, orangepenguin)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)
killa seven - 1 (Joubert)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)

Not Voting - Firestarter, StrangerCoug

13/7

-Mod

[LlamaFluff]

And the game grinds to a tedious halt. It seems like about 6 or 7 players are doing all the talking, and the rest are sliding along in the background.

Well, you have me playing the waiting game...

I hear the "make a case and vote" game is also pretty fun.

[LlamaFluff]

I will as soon as I get that PBPA of killa seven that Knight of Cydonia said he'd do. Don't rush me please.

Here is a sneak peek

0 - snarky comment
1 - useless post
2 - lurking
3 - useless post
.
.
.
X-1 - snarky comment
X - useless post

I really dont see what a PBPA of K7 will accomplish or why it is necessarily going to play a factor in your decision of who you will be voting for. Recently you unvoted KoC, who you now are going to be basing a PBPA from on if you are going to be voting K7. I dont get how you can abandon KoC and then listen to his case on K7 to determine where your vote goes. It seems like you are just listening to your top suspects logic on who to vote, or looking for a way off the KoC wagon.

[LlamaFluff]

KoC and killa seven are both on the suspicious side on my mind, but I can't really decide on one or the other. If I could do two votes, I'd have them on them both, but I can't. Essentially, yes, I'm leaving my vote idle so I can decide which of two evils I should go after.

I still dont understand why you want your two top suspects to convince you to vote for the other. Is what CFR and I been saying about KoC not enough? Are the posts against K7 not enough?

I think there is sufficent information out there for you to make the decision you need. I am pushing you to move a bit here, but its because you seem to be stalling out the conversation. Also you are playing KoC and K7 against eachother here.

[LlamaFluff]

Well, darn it, vote: Knight of Cydonia until he convinces me to move it! There! You happy!?

Flippety-floppety, the Cougar hasn't changed his spots.
Methinks he's hoping my PBPA (sorry, it's going to take some time - just restarted college)

will give him grounds to start another easy wagon

.
Almost looks like distancing from LLama, too.

Wait. I thought K7 was scum. Why would you be concerned if SC appears to be waiting for your PBPA of K7 if K7 is scum? Wouldnt you welcome him onto that wagon?

[LlamaFluff]

Prior to that, I would have unvoted you if there was a chance of a K7 lynch, Firestarter. Now I'm willing to have you both lynched.

You are ignoring my 1377, I really want an answer to that.

[LlamaFluff]

I think FS is more scummy than FL at the moment. The case against her isn't going anywhere, so I am not even going to bother to press it for now. Maybe at someother point.

On the other hand, KoC is far scummier then either of those two players, yet people continue to ignore him.

[LlamaFluff]

I think FS is more scummy than FL at the moment. The case against her isn't going anywhere, so I am not even going to bother to press it for now. Maybe at someother point.

On the other hand, KoC is far scummier then either of those two players, yet people continue to ignore him.

But unlike FS, KoC was on my list of suspicion when you asked a few pages back. I had FL/Koc, I believe, on there. ;)I think KoC is scummy too. Sorry if I appear to be ignoring him.

So why arent you voting? It seems like you have two high ranking suspects.

[LlamaFluff]

KoC's responses to this haven't been stellar though. If FS = town, he's a very good lynch.

I still say KoC is a better lynch then FS. I have played with FS before and he is giving me pretty similar vibes from that other game. Also I think a KoC lynch is more likely to happen then an FS lynch, the "voting block" seems to suspect him quite a bit, as do you. Those three transfering over equal a lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Also I think a KoC lynch is more likely to happen then an FS lynch

Really? I'm interested here.

Well if I have anything to say about it it will... What I am trying to say is I think more people on the FS wagon would transfer to the KoC wagon then the other way around. We have the block who suspects him, and you. Both treat KoC as a decent lynch it seems.

On the KoC wagon there is me who wont let go, OP whos LoS is KoC/FL, K7 who looks pretty locked in and SC who I dont know where he is going, and would probally be the only one to quickly transfer over to the FS wagon. The main two wagons seem to be forming, and FS wagoners support the KoC wagon much more then the KoC wagon supports the FS wagon. For those reasons I think the KoC lynch will happen first.

[LlamaFluff]

If KoC is town, would you be willing to vote FS?

There would still probally be a few players I would rather lynch before FS because I dont see an exceedingly obvious KoC town -> FS scum connection. FS would still be an OK 2.5 lynch if KoC is town though, I just am having a hard time shaking a meta read of him.

[LlamaFluff]

I just am having a hard time shaking a meta read of him.

Mind elaborating here?

This game he was vanilla town and basically used OMGUS attacks throughout the entire game. He appears the same to me in this game so am hesitant to vote him.

[LlamaFluff]

@CRF - I was going off this which I misread a bit.

But unlike FS, KoC was on my list of suspicion when you asked a few pages back. I had FL/Koc, I believe, on there. ;)I think KoC is scummy too. Sorry if I appear to be ignoring him.

So I concede the point where OP didnt suspect FS. I still think from that game I linked to FS is playing like his town meta, for that reason alone I prefer the KoC lynch to his and will push it hard because a KoC scum flip will eliminate the need for a FS lynch. If people refuse to lynch KoC today then yes, FS is the best alternative that is a possibility to me, I just like KoC a lot more.

[LlamaFluff]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... f6479d67e2

What about this game, FS as scum.

I think the meltdowns in 595 reg. ZS on pg 7/8 and BM pg 24-end of game (I was almost ready to lynch FS to shut them up) accented by FS making a completely OMGUS vote of BM pg 28, were more dramatic.

The game you sent just doesnt seem as full blown but resulted in FS replacing out instead of finishing and possibly having a similar meltdown, I wish that someone had a completed FS-scum game. I still see KoC as the lynch though and I dont think anything will change that.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, I just linked to a FS scum game.

That said, I see your point.

Unvote

, thinking is going to be done.

I ment one he played from start to finish without replacing in or out, that one he lurked for most of the game that he was actually around for.

[LlamaFluff]

@CFR - Out of curiosity, what are your views on OP?

[LlamaFluff]

I keep forgetting why I was voting FS, and now I remember...

But you arent voting remember, meta made you unvote

[LlamaFluff]

Can all the people voting by themselves highlight their second suspects for us?

[LlamaFluff]

I still think that KoC is the right lynch here, FS I just feel like he is reacting the exact same as he did as I saw him react under suspicion as town. Hopefully I can get some more substance up on KoC within the next couple days

[LlamaFluff]

But, in the meantime lets DO something constructive like just up and turbolynch someone. Anyone.

Something does need to happen, and I am working on *another* KoC case. I hope to have it up before the weekend starts, it will be my last hurrah at the 2.0 lynch of obv-scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Lets try this one more time; Koc is scum.

At the start of the day, KoC quickly (90) decided that the three scum were me, K7 and FL. His vote started on K7 citing reasons from D1. As the day went on, this LoS changed to include the people that started becoming common suspects since his pushes were going nowhere. He moves over to the forming FL wagon soon after he puts K7 at #1 over #2 FL in his LoS (95). His 110 is his first self-preservation move though. During most of the day he was “very sure” of his FL-LF-K7 scum trio, it seemed that none of those cases were going anywhere though, and he was becoming a high ranking suspect. So in 110 he decides to vote for a high vote getter, FS. He replaces me with FS saying that we are both alternates, which is funny since part of his reasoning for having K7 as a suspect is that I kept coming to the defense of him. Also this kind of destroys the “very sure of” scum read he had on me, passing on a lynch of his top three for a previously undiscussed suspect. There also were multiple shots at SC who people began expressing suspicion of. This is classic self preservation play.

The fact that KoC started with “LF-FL-K7 are scum”, and has slowly turned that into “lets lynch FS scum” along with the seemingly willingness to get behind a SC wagon if one emerges just reeks of scum trying to avoid getting lynched for as long as possible. I don’t see how the OMGUS of FS is worse then the self-preservation of KoC here.

[LlamaFluff]

So, any of the above would be great - I know I'm not going to get any backing on FL who I STILL think has a decent chance to be scum so there ya have it.

Im just going to pretend KoC was scum there for a little bit... that feels better.

I think that you are ignoring what Manito did just before KoC got lynched way too much. That was a big push by him to just stay off the KoC wagon without really calling him town.

Out of the three people you gave though I would prefer OP to FS for a lynch. I still think Manito is a better chance then either of them though at being scum.

vote manito

for now. More posting comes later.

[LlamaFluff]

LF: What about Manito is scummy? He didn't vote for a townie that looked really suspicious?

Apart from what I have been saying for a large part of this game, D2.0 he added 1) Lots of lurking 2) The fact that he calls KoC everything but scummy as the wagon on him is forming 3) Staying off all major wagons again to the extent where he hardly commented on FS or KoC

[LlamaFluff]

I say I don't get a strong enough scum read on KoC (not compared to my scum read on FL, not by a long shot), and you vote me for it? This is the second time you've voted for me based on pretty shaky reasoning, what's the deal?

The main point is what you said about KoC just struck me increadably scummy. You admit that he has been very scummy but you say you still had a "town" read on him. Apart from this odd stance on KoC, for the most part you avoided any real stances on most big wagons except for the FL one, which was only a temporary one.

By avoiding the main two wagons of the day (FS and KoC) you dont have to take responsability for any town flip on either of them. If there is a scum flip, when you say things like you did about KoC, you can cite that as suspicion of him, even though you thought that FL was a more likely scum flip.

Your LoS was also scummy in nature to me since it was basically FL-K7-lurker. FL was expected to be a wagon forming so that is a commitnent. The K7 and Joubert pushes though never occured, and I dont think were ever intended to. During the day (at least to me) you should of been happy with a push on any of your LoS. If suddenly halfway during 2.0 people wanted a manito lynch, I would of welcomed it with open arms, I also would of gone for one if that KoC push didnt get him lynched.

I know IRL constraints can be a pain, and (thankfully?) I am a student. I will always try to post though at nights, even if it is just a thought about what has been happening. My bigger posts usually take a day or so to make because I cant find the time between a full load of harder classes and work. While I cant fault you too much for having a rough IRL patch, what I do have a harder time with is how your posting got fairly prolific around the time KoC was getting lynched, and it mostly spoke ill of the lynch.

The fact that you also were comparing KoC to armlx in vote movements also doesnt make much sense. Most of the votes that KoC moved around were not on a deadline like your post would of had us belive. Armlx made a more deadline/action vote. The fact that you call KoC town from this and armlx odd but "not enough to vote" feels like planting seeds of doubt and trying to look good before a KoC lynch... and at this point I am rambling so stop.

[LlamaFluff]

I think SpyreX wins here given the OMGUS.

Vote FS

I lol'ed at this because I knew it was coming.

[LlamaFluff]

I notice a recurring group of 4 among everybody.

SC, K7, FL, FS.

Does anyone not have at least 1 of those on their scum list?

Yeah but im not too sure I like where this might be headed

[LlamaFluff]

Thought about this for a while. I dont think a clean sweap of the four players is a good move in our current position.

While I would definantly expect there to be scum in the four, the fact that we would just be going down the list basically kills any connections between scum that we normally would be able to derive from rival wagons and who defends who. Part of the benifits of lynching scum are seeing connections, and there will be no more connections if we go through with this.

THINK FAST DOUCHE-FAG

SpyreX - 2 (Firestarter, StrangerCoug)
Firestarter - 2 (SpyreX, armlx)
StrangerCoug - 2 (TheSweatpantsNinja, CF Riot)
Manito - 1 (LlamaFluff)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
killa seven - 1 (orangepenguin)

Not voting - Joubert, killa seven, FaerieLord

12/7.

-Mod

[LlamaFluff]

I am going to give him some time to write some last thoughts, but after that case its tempting just to hammer away.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote, vote Firestarter

[LlamaFluff]

The main point is what you said about KoC just struck me increadably scummy. You admit that he has been very scummy but you say you still had a "town" read on him. Apart from this odd stance on KoC, for the most part you avoided any real stances on most big wagons except for the FL one, which was only a temporary one.

I admitted that his behavior was scummy, but as I

also

said, I got the read on him as town because it felt a lot like forbiddan's lynch - everyone just hopping on board because they wanted the day to progress.

You said it was like fl in the sense that he was scummy but that was not necessarily indicative of alignment. If you think that someone is performing scummy actions it means that you should think the player is scum. It makes no sense to say "yes player X is doing lots of scummy things, oh yeah player X is town".

By avoiding the main two wagons of the day (FS and KoC) you dont have to take responsability for any town flip on either of them. If there is a scum flip, when you say things like you did about KoC, you can cite that as suspicion of him, even though you thought that FL was a more likely scum flip.

As far as your statement that I "avoid" real stances on big wagons - I invite you to explain what would possibly convince me, based on the evidence you all provided (evidence I found lacking, in comparison) to switch my vote and "jump on the wagon" when I felt the evidence against FL was far more damning.

You said yourself you found KoC scummy, so why was it lacking? The fact that FS is the only wagon you have hopped on really this whole game, especially when you consider that nearly every player was on one of K7/Corin, on top of the recent KoC wagon. Constant avoidance of town wagons, especially when the wagon that you are pushing just sits there for the most part is scummy. It is distancing from town lynches.

I'm tired of you bossing people around, pushing them to vote just because you think the evidence is strong enough - and then you vote for those who disagree with you, in a further attempt to be pushy. If I don't see the evidence provided in the same way you do, I shouldn't feel pressured to alter my vote. Tactics like the ones you're using to force people around comes across as really scummy. I thought you were just a pushy, fervent townsperson, but it's starting to feel a little more hostile...

*headscratch* Being vocal and trying to get my suspects lynched is scummy now? Also nice attempt to try and make my attack on you some offshoot of OMGUS. I think you are scum, I vote for you, I try and get you lynched. Its how you play the game, and part of playing that game is getting my point accross any way I can. If you dont agree with what I have to say that is (sort of) fine with me, I will just keep trying to prove why I think that I am right untill it becomes either something that wont happen, or someone presents a case that appears better then the one I am pushing. This whole paragraph though basically boils down to OMGUS and you trying to make my presence as leader into me being scum.

Your LoS was also scummy in nature to me since it was basically FL-K7-lurker. FL was expected to be a wagon forming so that is a commitnent. The K7 and Joubert pushes though never occured, and I dont think were ever intended to. During the day (at least to me) you should of been happy with a push on any of your LoS. If suddenly halfway during 2.0 people wanted a manito lynch, I would of welcomed it with open arms, I also would of gone for one if that KoC push didnt get him lynched.

How can an LoS be scummy? It matches who I have, and will continue to vote for, until I see far scummier behavior. Oddly enough, your recent bully tactics have put you on my radar, changing my LoS to FL, K7, LF (since Joubert is now a limbo replacement). Are you going to find my LoS scummy now that you're on it?

Yeah now it is very scummy. The fact that K7 is on there and you STILL did not vote for him D1.5 is bugging me a lot. Also the fact that apparently you had Joubert on there because he was lurking is pretty scummy since now that he is being replaced, you seem to be wanting to drop that case. Also the OMGUS of adding me, that is scummy too.

All that IRL stuff you talked about

OK fair enough, I guess you will be more active now though

Most of the votes that moved to KoC moved there because they wanted the day to move along - you need to go back and read again - at least two of the posts said something along the lines of "let's get this day moving along" along with their vote for KoC. I stated my reasoning for not voting for KoC - I feel that my vote for FL is where it belongs, based on the evidence I feel is most relevant. My decision not to change my vote had nothing to do with "looking good before a KoC lynch" - making a statement like that feels really scummy by the way - did you know something before the lynch that we all didn't? Here you are again, saying that I'm scummy because I wasn't bullied into changing my vote to KoC when I felt the evidence against him wasn't strong enough. What is up with that? Why do you feel like you can push other people's votes around?

OK this here is one of my biggest problems with the way you are playing. You are not trying to get scum lynched. There is a massive difference in the way that the two of us are pushing our cases. I say "KoC is scum", get a few votes, then I say "KoC is scum also beacause of X", get a few more vote, explain it a better way and get him lynched. Meanwhile you say "FL is scum", get a few votes. Then you stop talking about why FL is scum, and why you stop talking there is what I want to know. With the strength that you seem to oppose the lynch of anyone who isnt a lurker (K7, Joubert) or the people who want you lynched (FL, me), you need to give more reasons or at least keep updating them. At least do a decent sized posts saying why you want these players lynched instead of saying "What I said before". It is pretty hypocritical of you to even be asking TSN for reasoning when you havent really said anything of merit to get us to listen to you. This game is half figuring out who is scum and half getting people to listen to you.

[LlamaFluff]

grr... forgot to

vote manito

[LlamaFluff]

Thought about this for a while. I dont think a clean sweap of the four players is a good move in our current position.

While I would definantly expect there to be scum in the four, the fact that we would just be going down the list basically kills any connections between scum that we normally would be able to derive from rival wagons and who defends who. Part of the benifits of lynching scum are seeing connections, and there will be no more connections if we go through with this.

This is in reference to the recurring list of suspects from most everyone: SC, K7, FL, FS that you posted about on page 65. FS was on that list, and LF was against sweeping through those. A little out of character for LF, who is usually pretty gung-ho about going for scum suspects.

Yeah I didnt want to lynch four straight people without too much discussion. If you actually wanted to anything like that its just another reason we should be lynching you over FL right now. I suspected FS? Yeah I did after KoC flipped, a lot of my thoughts on him were town given that KoC was scum, mixed with his meta. I suspected SC? Yeah I did, I still think he is a decent lynch, although we should be lynching you first. I still think that K7 is town though, and that FL is also probally town. There is no point for me to even start agreeing with an idea that kills two players that I have on the town side on my equation. Now you are streaching trying to call me scum for not wanting to overkill four players which of I only had two as scum.

[LlamaFluff]

One question Llama - why are you so quick to defend FL and K7?

Especially considering I've pointed out a connection between those two.

I dont think they are scum. Quite frankly, I am not going say "ok go ahead and lynch people I have leaning town". You *breifly* defended KoC too, so I dont see much of a difference in what happened there. Town doesnt want town lynched and try to prevent it from happening, or at least always should.

And considering their behavior has been as scummy/worse than some of the lynches that have already passed. Why aren't you all over that like white on rice?

I dont think it has been worse then most peoples behavior. I would rather see other people lynched so will defend them if thats what it takes to get my suspects lynched. The K7 case seems to be uselessness and lurking, and that happens every game he shows up in. The FL case I never really saw as too damning either.

[LlamaFluff]

You said it was like fl in the sense that he was scummy but that was not necessarily indicative of alignment. If you think that someone is performing scummy actions it means that you should think the player is scum. It makes no sense to say "yes player X is doing lots of scummy things, oh yeah player X is town".

It does make sense to say that when we've seen the same sort of behavior from KoC that we saw from fl. While I didn't think KoC's behavior was right, it didn't feel like scum to me, and certainly not in comparison to FL (which, as we've seen again, continues to be worse than KoC's ever was). I'd appreciate it if you don't tell me how I should think, I'm sorry that I didn't jump on your wagon like a good little sheep, I didn't feel the evidence was strong enough to support the case. It's this thing called "reasonable doubt" - you should go look that up

lol @ reasonable doubt being mentioned in a pure vanilla mafia game first off. My main thing is when you think someone is town, there is no reason to be letting them get lynched without fighting it. Sure you showed up as KoC was going down, but what did you say "He looks scummy, but I think he is town given similarities to fl lynch". That was about it, no real strong move to save him. If you think a player is town you act accordingly when they are threatened. Your read on KoC seems to be fishing for cit points as you were opposing a lynch of the hot topic townie. Also the fact that you havent jumped on any wagons - That is a scum tell to me, especially when we havent lynched scum. If you consistantly distance yourself from every wagon (I think fl and FS are the only ones you have been a part of), while not really putting on a show to get FL lynched in your case makes it seem like you are just playing it safe by pushing a wagon but not letting it get anywhere. I did this once as scum in a large game, pushed a wagon of town for about five days before I carried through with a real lynch attempt. This gave me solid reasoning to avoid all other wagons.

You said yourself you found KoC scummy, so why was it lacking? The fact that FS is the only wagon you have hopped on really this whole game, especially when you consider that nearly every player was on one of K7/Corin, on top of the recent KoC wagon. Constant avoidance of town wagons, especially when the wagon that you are pushing just sits there for the most part is scummy. It is distancing from town lynches.

I found the KoC wagon lacking because there wasn't anyone willing to explain in clear, consolidated, firm terms why they thought KoC was scum. Your explaination was weak at best, if I remember, it was something along the lines of 3 lines of text. I go with the evidence, not gut based on the opinion of one wagon pusher like you Llama. Spyrex's evidence and massive explanatory post was extremely well supported, and at that point it was enough to convince me to change my vote from FL. Unfortunate that Spyrex was wrong, but the fact of the matter is FS's play had been quite scummy, and Spyrex did an excellent (though in hindsight, "bad") job of making a case. You say my behavior is distancing from town lynches - I'm sorry I don't go off half-cocked and just vote for whoever you're pushing the vote for Llama. I'll try and be a good sheep in the future and follow everything you say...

Ok this is hypocritcal AND wrong. I made a lot of posts about why KoC was the lynch if you go back through my posts. I think within my first five posts I had a bigger case up on him then you have made this whole game. That leads to it being hypocritical, all you say, day in and out are "Lynch FL for serious guys, just like I said earlier". I think untill I nearly dragged it out of you about a page ago you haddent even listed reasoning for over a day. Nice buddying up to Spyrex though by complementing him on having a case good enough to sway you.

*headscratch* Being vocal and trying to get my suspects lynched is scummy now? Also nice attempt to try and make my attack on you some offshoot of OMGUS. I think you are scum, I vote for you, I try and get you lynched. Its how you play the game, and part of playing that game is getting my point accross any way I can. If you dont agree with what I have to say that is (sort of) fine with me, I will just keep trying to prove why I think that I am right untill it becomes either something that wont happen, or someone presents a case that appears better then the one I am pushing. This whole paragraph though basically boils down to OMGUS and you trying to make my presence as leader into me being scum.

There's a big difference between being "vocal" and being "bossy" - and you are definitely the latter. If someone doesn't immediately follow your lead, you call them scummy and/or vote for them immediately to pressure them into following you. That isn't voicing an opinion - that's forcing it.

Lets see... I said you were scum basically upon entering into this game. Yeah thats definantly some sort of reverse OMGUS going on where because you arent supporting my wagons you have to be scum. This is just complete misrep and OMGUS.

Yeah now it is very scummy. The fact that K7 is on there and you STILL did not vote for him D1.5 is bugging me a lot. Also the fact that apparently you had Joubert on there because he was lurking is pretty scummy since now that he is being replaced, you seem to be wanting to drop that case. Also the OMGUS of adding me, that is scummy too.

So let me get this straight, because I haven't voted for K7 (who is

second

on my LoS), and have continued to vote for FL (who is

first

on my LoS) until the FS case was presented by Spyrex, my LoS is scummy?

Swing and a miss. Day 1.5 the two wagons were Corin and K7, this was RIGHT before deadline hit too. Lets look back and see how you took this opportunity to get your #2 player on your LoS lynched... wait, you didnt. I honestly cant even start to comprehend how town would ever be willing to let a chance to pass up getting their #2 suspect lynched, when it is OBVIOUS that their #1 has ZERO shot at getting lynched. Seriously. The only reason I can see you staying on FL over moving to K7 is the hope of leaving a K7 mislynch for later in the day, or you are scum with him and doing the "oh yeah he is suspicious, but I dont want to vote him" move.

Your logic completely failed there. I've been following my LoS to the letter. Why in the world would I vote for the #2 on my LoS when the #1 is still around? Joubert is still high on my radar, but your attitude and pushy behavior has raised you above him. If Joubert was actually posting/playing, I might have more reason to suspect him, but at this point, there's nothing to make a case with except his lurker status. You, on the other hand, are continuing to demonstrate scummy behavior.

This was about the D1 actions, when one suspect drops off lynch possibility though, you dont just camp there and blame the other players at a mislynch. I do like the admission of your long time #2 suspect being purely there for being a lurker. Thats another great reason to be lynching you today. Interestingly enough I now seem to be a suspect of yours (if we really want to discount the OMGUS reasoning) for being too active and pushing my cases too "aggressively"

OK this here is one of my biggest problems with the way you are playing. You are not trying to get scum lynched. There is a massive difference in the way that the two of us are pushing our cases. I say "KoC is scum", get a few votes, then I say "KoC is scum also beacause of X", get a few more vote, explain it a better way and get him lynched. Meanwhile you say "FL is scum", get a few votes. Then you stop talking about why FL is scum, and why you stop talking there is what I want to know. With the strength that you seem to oppose the lynch of anyone who isnt a lurker (K7, Joubert) or the people who want you lynched (FL, me), you need to give more reasons or at least keep updating them. At least do a decent sized posts saying why you want these players lynched instead of saying "What I said before". It is pretty hypocritical of you to even be asking TSN for reasoning when you havent really said anything of merit to get us to listen to you. This game is half figuring out who is scum and half getting people to listen to you.

I'm not playing to get scum lynched? All because I didn't vote for KoC, who I said I didn't think was scum multiple times, for all the reasons I previously stated? C'mon, I know you can do better than that Llama. I've stated FL's scum reasons multiple times, but I can certainly reiterate them again.

Ok the last few times you had even MENTIONED FL before these posts it was "what I said the day before" with a few one line shots thrown in as the day went on. That is hardly pushing. What I have done is pushing, what Spyrex did is pushing. You have been camping on a dead wagon, acting like you are being useful.

I will even address a few reasons

--FL says he doesn't vote often. Pushes fl's mislynch heavily, but doesn't ever vote her. As soon as D1.5 started, immediately votes for me in OMGUS fashion, based on less evidence than fl and with minimal discussion.

That was not OMGUS. I could tell you two were going to vote eachother D1.5 during my reread, you are calling it OMGUS to use it as a point.

--End of D1.5, FL makes the deciding (essentially hammer) vote on Corinthian for a second mislynch.

OK... how is this scummy? The only way I can see it being considered scummy is if K7 is scum, which you seem to believe but didnt vote for during this same timespan.

I still say we should be lynching Manito today and not FL.

[LlamaFluff]

You honestly think I could stop anyone here from lynching someone I thought was probably town? From everything I've seen, most everyone here is more than happy to lynch based on pretty loose cases. I did the only thing I could do - state my reason for not suspecting him, and refused to vote him based on that reasoning. I'm sorry that you don't think that is good enough.

Well it isnt good enough. You have seen me react to people getting close to a lynch that I think are town or much lower suspect then a probable lynch. I try and get them off the chopping block and replaced with my prefrence. You just say "I wouldnt do that" then shut up about it.

Your logic that "because Manito has been part of only two wagons, he must be scum" is flawed. One could just as easily make the same statement about you - "because Llama has been part of every single wagon, he must be scum" using the logic that you make sure that you are at the forefront, driving every wagon and pushing people around like you do, hiding in plain sight.

When you have reasoning to distance yourself from nearly every wagon in the game, and calling just about ever mislynch out, that a majority of players agree with, but still havent gotten your prefrence lynched (or made any big runs at it), I do think that is scummy. You are avoiding all the wagons while players like me take the heat for them which lines up more mislynches for you.

It's just a simple case of you and I having different play styles. You're arrogant, pushy, and willing to jump on any wagon passing by so long as the momentum is good. I'm careful, methodical, logical, and I won't be pressured into making a decision I don't feel is backed by facts.

Lets stick to attacks on what is going on and not attacks on the players ok? Not misrepping people is also something smart to be partaking in. I have been in this game for three lynches, and was the first vote on two of them. Thats hardly jumping wagons.

Ok this is hypocritcal AND wrong. I made a lot of posts about why KoC was the lynch if you go back through my posts. I think within my first five posts I had a bigger case up on him then you have made this whole game. That leads to it being hypocritical, all you say, day in and out are "Lynch FL for serious guys, just like I said earlier". I think untill I nearly dragged it out of you about a page ago you haddent even listed reasoning for over a day. Nice buddying up to Spyrex though by complementing him on having a case good enough to sway you.

Buddying up to Spyrex? Did you read his post? It was well written and well backed up. How is complementing him on that "buddying?" You're always so emotional and bossy in your posts, why is that?

What is this really? Everything I say to you gets turned into an attack on my playstyle instead of an attack on me being scummy or not. That is buddying up too, you said "Oh spyrex was wrong but wow... great job on that case", blatant buddying at that.

Go look up hypocritical - my behavior is anything but. A hypocritical person "feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude" - and I think it's pretty safe to say that my desire to lynch FL has not been "publicly approved" at any point during this game. Amazing how that works, isn't it? At one point, FL had 3 votes, but then Llama steps in, starts a new wagon, and FL's votes go away.

Hypocritical is when you say something is wrong then do it anyways. You said I haddent provided any decent reasoning for the KoC lynch, while your target of FL had been mentioned more then "what I said before" only a few times, and those were one liners usually accusing them of lurking. Untill a few posts ago I barely even had heard enough about FL to remember why people wanted them lynched.

Lets see... I said you were scum basically upon entering into this game. Yeah thats definantly some sort of reverse OMGUS going on where because you arent supporting my wagons you have to be scum. This is just complete misrep and OMGUS.

Reverse OMGUS? Explain how that works please. Is that like OMGIS (Oh My God I'm Scum)?

My statement, in case you didn't read it the first time clearly, says that you aren't just being "vocal". Vocal means you state, clearly, over and over, the case you have presented. "Bossy", which is what you really are, is you being vocal, and then, when people

don't

follow your lead, you immediately vote for them or point a finger in their direction in an effort to force them to vote. That's the difference between the two. Isn't OMGUS in any fashion - just a statement of fact.

Reverse OMGUS in the sense of you are accusing me of attacking you in an OMGUS style due to disagreement over wagons. What I am pointing out is that I actually was suspicious of you before today even before D2. Lets look at my LoS for today too - you (have been for a while) and SC (well he seems to agree with me now and sure has befor). Yeah I dont really see me trying to get everyone who doenst rally behind me lynched.

Swing and a miss. Day 1.5 the two wagons were Corin and K7, this was RIGHT before deadline hit too. Lets look back and see how you took this opportunity to get your #2 player on your LoS lynched... wait, you didnt. I honestly cant even start to comprehend how town would ever be willing to let a chance to pass up getting their #2 suspect lynched, when it is OBVIOUS that their #1 has ZERO shot at getting lynched. Seriously. The only reason I can see you staying on FL over moving to K7 is the hope of leaving a K7 mislynch for later in the day, or you are scum with him and doing the "oh yeah he is suspicious, but I dont want to vote him" move.

Are you really not paying attention? Do you not remember WHY K7 was on my "list"? He was on my list because I didn't have anyone else who was particularly scummy at that point, so K7 AND Joubert were both my #2 suspects merely for being lurkers. So I'm so sorry that I didn't take the opportunity to lynch a lurker suspect before he had a chance to say anything in his defense...

This alone is one of the biggest reasons I want you lynched, and I am thinking that if you are scum, K7 is a good place to look for our second one. Hell, lets look at this; You actually just said "Day 1.5, no body but FL was suspicious". Please. Also answer this question specifically, because I still dont think it has been addressed (at least in a sane manner) - Why would you let Corin, who you seemed to belive was town, get lynched over K7, who you had as your #2 suspect? Especially when you are using FL voting Corin as a reason to think that they are scum?

This was about the D1 actions, when one suspect drops off lynch possibility though, you dont just camp there and blame the other players at a mislynch. I do like the admission of your long time #2 suspect being purely there for being a lurker. Thats another great reason to be lynching you today. Interestingly enough I now seem to be a suspect of yours (if we really want to discount the OMGUS reasoning) for being too active and pushing my cases too "aggressively"

You are suspect for more reasons than just being too active and being bossy. Firestarter specifically said in his last post before YOU hammered him, that someone calling the shots should be next. You've done a wonderful job of trying to put everyone's attention elsewhere - I think at this point we should listen to the dead a little, and try and make something of it. Firestarter's list was:

Next up should be one calling the shots.. armlx, Spyrex, CFR, LF..

You must of loved it when FS said that, it gave you a shield against my attack and even some fodder to fight back with. I also am not sure how me being "bossy" as you call it and a "leader" as FS called it are different reasons to suspect me.

Ok the last few times you had even MENTIONED FL before these posts it was "what I said the day before" with a few one line shots thrown in as the day went on. That is hardly pushing. What I have done is pushing, what Spyrex did is pushing. You have been camping on a dead wagon, acting like you are being useful.

You're right, I really should be looking harder at other suspect possibilities too. FL is still particularly high on my list. As I stated above, I think Firestarter's idea to look harder at those pushing all the major wagons is where we should be at this point. At this point, the only other person I've seen with what I consider particularly fishy play has been you and your bossy play. Here's something for everyone to consider:

Spyrex posts facts, backed up and eloquently delivered, to push a vote.

LlamaFluff posts some facts, loosely backed by his gut instincts or interpretation of events, and then votes/finger-points at non-voters to push them to vote.

Note the difference? A good case will stand on it's own two legs. A poor case, or an intentional mislynch disguised as a case, requires a few more legs to get it rolling.

I will translate for you "Llama is loud and aggressive (true). He is using gut and misrep to get people lynched (false). He wants people who dont agree with him lynched (false)." Thats all you say about me, and most if it is blatant misrep.

And that vote, pretty blatant OMGUS.

[LlamaFluff]

mod

can you delete above post. I had to fix tags.

You honestly think I could stop anyone here from lynching someone I thought was probably town? From everything I've seen, most everyone here is more than happy to lynch based on pretty loose cases. I did the only thing I could do - state my reason for not suspecting him, and refused to vote him based on that reasoning. I'm sorry that you don't think that is good enough.

Well it isnt good enough. You have seen me react to people getting close to a lynch that I think are town or much lower suspect then a probable lynch. I try and get them off the chopping block and replaced with my prefrence. You just say "I wouldnt do that" then shut up about it.

Your logic that "because Manito has been part of only two wagons, he must be scum" is flawed. One could just as easily make the same statement about you - "because Llama has been part of every single wagon, he must be scum" using the logic that you make sure that you are at the forefront, driving every wagon and pushing people around like you do, hiding in plain sight.

When you have reasoning to distance yourself from nearly every wagon in the game, and calling just about ever mislynch out, that a majority of players agree with, but still havent gotten your prefrence lynched (or made any big runs at it), I do think that is scummy. You are avoiding all the wagons while players like me take the heat for them which lines up more mislynches for you.

It's just a simple case of you and I having different play styles. You're arrogant, pushy, and willing to jump on any wagon passing by so long as the momentum is good. I'm careful, methodical, logical, and I won't be pressured into making a decision I don't feel is backed by facts.

Lets stick to attacks on what is going on and not attacks on the players ok? Not misrepping people is also something smart to be partaking in. I have been in this game for three lynches, and was the first vote on two of them. Thats hardly jumping wagons.

Ok this is hypocritcal AND wrong. I made a lot of posts about why KoC was the lynch if you go back through my posts. I think within my first five posts I had a bigger case up on him then you have made this whole game. That leads to it being hypocritical, all you say, day in and out are "Lynch FL for serious guys, just like I said earlier". I think untill I nearly dragged it out of you about a page ago you haddent even listed reasoning for over a day. Nice buddying up to Spyrex though by complementing him on having a case good enough to sway you.

Buddying up to Spyrex? Did you read his post? It was well written and well backed up. How is complementing him on that "buddying?" You're always so emotional and bossy in your posts, why is that?

What is this really? Everything I say to you gets turned into an attack on my playstyle instead of an attack on me being scummy or not. That is buddying up too, you said "Oh spyrex was wrong but wow... great job on that case", blatant buddying at that.

Go look up hypocritical - my behavior is anything but. A hypocritical person "feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude" - and I think it's pretty safe to say that my desire to lynch FL has not been "publicly approved" at any point during this game. Amazing how that works, isn't it? At one point, FL had 3 votes, but then Llama steps in, starts a new wagon, and FL's votes go away.

Hypocritical is when you say something is wrong then do it anyways. You said I haddent provided any decent reasoning for the KoC lynch, while your target of FL had been mentioned more then "what I said before" only a few times, and those were one liners usually accusing them of lurking. Untill a few posts ago I barely even had heard enough about FL to remember why people wanted them lynched.

Lets see... I said you were scum basically upon entering into this game. Yeah thats definantly some sort of reverse OMGUS going on where because you arent supporting my wagons you have to be scum. This is just complete misrep and OMGUS.

Reverse OMGUS? Explain how that works please. Is that like OMGIS (Oh My God I'm Scum)?

My statement, in case you didn't read it the first time clearly, says that you aren't just being "vocal". Vocal means you state, clearly, over and over, the case you have presented. "Bossy", which is what you really are, is you being vocal, and then, when people

don't

follow your lead, you immediately vote for them or point a finger in their direction in an effort to force them to vote. That's the difference between the two. Isn't OMGUS in any fashion - just a statement of fact.

Reverse OMGUS in the sense of you are accusing me of attacking you in an OMGUS style due to disagreement over wagons. What I am pointing out is that I actually was suspicious of you before today even before D2. Lets look at my LoS for today too - you (have been for a while) and SC (well he seems to agree with me now and sure has befor). Yeah I dont really see me trying to get everyone who doenst rally behind me lynched.

Swing and a miss. Day 1.5 the two wagons were Corin and K7, this was RIGHT before deadline hit too. Lets look back and see how you took this opportunity to get your #2 player on your LoS lynched... wait, you didnt. I honestly cant even start to comprehend how town would ever be willing to let a chance to pass up getting their #2 suspect lynched, when it is OBVIOUS that their #1 has ZERO shot at getting lynched. Seriously. The only reason I can see you staying on FL over moving to K7 is the hope of leaving a K7 mislynch for later in the day, or you are scum with him and doing the "oh yeah he is suspicious, but I dont want to vote him" move.

Are you really not paying attention? Do you not remember WHY K7 was on my "list"? He was on my list because I didn't have anyone else who was particularly scummy at that point, so K7 AND Joubert were both my #2 suspects merely for being lurkers. So I'm so sorry that I didn't take the opportunity to lynch a lurker suspect before he had a chance to say anything in his defense...

This alone is one of the biggest reasons I want you lynched, and I am thinking that if you are scum, K7 is a good place to look for our second one. Hell, lets look at this; You actually just said "Day 1.5, no body but FL was suspicious". Please. Also answer this question specifically, because I still dont think it has been addressed (at least in a sane manner) - Why would you let Corin, who you seemed to belive was town, get lynched over K7, who you had as your #2 suspect? Especially when you are using FL voting Corin as a reason to think that they are scum?

This was about the D1 actions, when one suspect drops off lynch possibility though, you dont just camp there and blame the other players at a mislynch. I do like the admission of your long time #2 suspect being purely there for being a lurker. Thats another great reason to be lynching you today. Interestingly enough I now seem to be a suspect of yours (if we really want to discount the OMGUS reasoning) for being too active and pushing my cases too "aggressively"

You are suspect for more reasons than just being too active and being bossy. Firestarter specifically said in his last post before YOU hammered him, that someone calling the shots should be next. You've done a wonderful job of trying to put everyone's attention elsewhere - I think at this point we should listen to the dead a little, and try and make something of it. Firestarter's list was:

Next up should be one calling the shots.. armlx, Spyrex, CFR, LF..

You must of loved it when FS said that, it gave you a shield against my attack and even some fodder to fight back with. I also am not sure how me being "bossy" as you call it and a "leader" as FS called it are different reasons to suspect me.

Ok the last few times you had even MENTIONED FL before these posts it was "what I said the day before" with a few one line shots thrown in as the day went on. That is hardly pushing. What I have done is pushing, what Spyrex did is pushing. You have been camping on a dead wagon, acting like you are being useful.

You're right, I really should be looking harder at other suspect possibilities too. FL is still particularly high on my list. As I stated above, I think Firestarter's idea to look harder at those pushing all the major wagons is where we should be at this point. At this point, the only other person I've seen with what I consider particularly fishy play has been you and your bossy play. Here's something for everyone to consider:

Spyrex posts facts, backed up and eloquently delivered, to push a vote.

LlamaFluff posts some facts, loosely backed by his gut instincts or interpretation of events, and then votes/finger-points at non-voters to push them to vote.

Note the difference? A good case will stand on it's own two legs. A poor case, or an intentional mislynch disguised as a case, requires a few more legs to get it rolling.

I will translate for you "Llama is loud and aggressive (true). He is using gut and misrep to get people lynched (false). He wants people who dont agree with him lynched (false)." Thats all you say about me, and most if it is blatant misrep.

And that vote, pretty blatant OMGUS.

[LlamaFluff]

Well, when you decide to quote my posts where I vote for people without ever quoting anything where I made cases on all of these people sure I look like scum. I will wait for you to finish everything though before I do a full-fledged response.

[LlamaFluff]

Sober Llama will make an indepth response tomorrow. A question though - Did you just read my posts? A lot of what you are attacking me on has been addressed a few times already.

[LlamaFluff]

Sorry for a long post people, but midterms are over and its too early in the day to be drinking.

Just to clarify - LF doesn't just pressure when people don't agree with him. He puts pressure on people period - if they aren't voting, if they aren't voting with him, if they are voting against him. He doesn't seem to have the sense that someone just might disagree with him, and that he needs to leave it at that. This has been my point time and again when I have brought this subject up - Llama will ignore an individuals explained reasoning for doing what they do, and hammer them until (1) they react and lash out at Llama (2) break down and follow Llama's lead.

Well when people havent been able to successfully explain reasoning behind certain moves I will pressure them. When people arent taking a stand on an issue and just hanging in the shadows, I will pressure them. If people are me I will pressure them for the reasoning. This game is one where you actually need to convince people of what you think, if someone sees a player or event differently, its not in the best intrest of the town to say "oh well" and start over. If you think I am too aggressive, fine. If you think thats a scum tell, you aint seen nothing yet.

Case and point, I've been pointing my finger at FL for most of the game, and I've carefully explained it multiple times. However, if I don't post a

full, complete case

every single time

that I say "I'm staying with FL for the reasons I previously mentioned" - it's like Llama doesn't even acknowledge my previous posts on FL. He completely

ignores

them, and says "all I see you saying is you've posted reasons before, but they're weak", because he doesn't take the time to read further back. I will happily be posting a complete case on FL, yet AGAIN, with quotes referring to where the points I bring up have been demonstrated before, so Llama can put his foot in his mouth.

You are clinging to the FL case, you always have been. You arent playing it like town though. You constantly use the FL wagon to avoid taking stances on everyone else, and there have really been no strong pushes or changes in what it is. Your entire case is three points it seems, and most of those points are very weak. Post the ENTIRE case, convince me that FL is scum. Dont just say "previous reasons", if I think you are wrong, I am not about to do reasearch in an attempt to prove you right. That is your job.

Here is some more fun interpretations

Post #715 - LF defends K7, saying that K7 is getting the "lurker vote" - which while K7 was lurking at this time, he was primarily lurking because he was suspect after starting/pushing the fl lynch.

You are giving reasoning for something that you should not know reasoning for. I have another game with K7 and he lurks, its how he plays. Dont like it? Doesnt mean he is auto-scum for it.

Post #784 - LF and K7 working in concert, talking about who they would want to work together on to lynch. I'll admit they'd have to be pretty stupid to be discussing this in the open if they are scum partners, but let's face it, K7's behavior has been anything but intelligent. Perhaps that's what they were counting on. Also note that in Post #786, FL chimes in and agrees with LF and K7 on working towards lynching either KOC, Corin, or myself. Further evidence of the suspected LF/K7/FL trifecta?

I really dont know how to respond to this point apart from laughter, but alas I will try since if I dont im sure you will call it a scum tell too. Since when is saying "Lets lynch one of these players not this player" scum communicating? You already say that I keep "forcing" people to do my bidding in this game, this is probally more fitting of an example of that. Also are you actually suggesting "K7 doesnt seem smart, he must be scum" from that exchange?

Post #788 - Not Llama, but K7 votes me right after I was prodded (to which I responded 5 hours later. with the reasons I was absent) - interesting how K7 takes his queues from LF in 784, and then starts using the vote to try and "pressure" me into posting. K7 even refers back to LF/FL's post (unsure which, he posted "^read LL's post" in #792) as his reason for voting me.

K7 using evidence I laid out makes me scum now? This seems like it should be in a K7 case, not Llama case.

Post #828 - Llama again defends K7, and the quotes make me laugh:

• I feel like im talking to a brick wall when I tell people to lynch mantio and corin over K7 but hey, will it hurt to try again?
  
  Look people.

  I have never played a game with K7 before

  ,

  yes I realize that he is not really being helpful as a whole

  , and he comes off as a newer/scummy player. The thing is, this read tends to be very volital in past game I have played in, these people always look scummy. SC* who replaced in seems to be another one of these unfortunate few who comes off as scum in most games, even when he is not scum.
  
  My read on manito and corin though are not on players that have the newb tell. They are both demonstrating scum tells that when you match

  them up across multiple games,

  
  

  (Note from me, this is my only game on mafiascum, so Llama has lied here saying he has matched my play up to other games. Llama also does not specify what "scum tells" are being demonstrated - they're just the phantom type I suppose.

  Later, in Post #842, Llama responds to my pointing out this flaw by saying he's matching up the unspecified "scum tells" to "standards of play on the site and the game as a whole" - so he's basically basing his opinion of our play on the meta of every other player of this game. This isn't raising any red flags for anyone?

  )[/b]

  Tells are tells, the things I saw Corin doing, saw KoC doing, and am seeing you doing, I have seen scum do before, multiple times. Cases I make are based off these tells. I dont see how saying "manitos actions are scum tells" is at all wrong. It is just a simpler way of saying "what manito is doing I have seen scum do multiple times before in games X Y and Z so I belive that he is scum given that reason and other actions occuring in this game".
  

  they end up flipping scum instead of town. This is an observation, but go back in your games and compare the likelyhood of the annoying, lurker being scum to the chance of the fence sitter, the flipflopper, the follower. These players are much, much more likely to be scum. Period.
  
  When you compare tells, we are chasing ghosts here. There are much better options then K7. Most people seem to like ignoring them though, which makes me think that either 1) I am right, or 2) People think im wrong. If its 2, freaking tell me people! I want to know why you dont think im right so I can actually work on proving to you that I am right!

  Clearly LF is trying desperately to deflect from K7 onto other people, even though he admits that K7's play is scummy, but he says that it's just newb town coming off as scummy. Now, take note that K7 has been a member of mafiascum since January of 2008, a full 4 months longer than Llama, and K7

  also has more posts than Llama

  (1103 vs 1128). K7 is not inexperienced, obviously. So this really shoots the whole "newb town being scummy" theory full of holes. (For reference, myself, a single game player since June, has 127 posts)

  Tell me this - Why is it scummy to deflect from K7? It sounds like you are pretty assured that he is scum, and are using that to base a case on me. Anywho, go look at any game K7 has played. He does the exact same thing, its more of apathetic and intentionally unhelpful town then newb town. I also dont get the point of this part again. I called K7 newb town, you think he isnt, I am scum?
  

  Post #839 - LF again defends K7, saying the following:
  

  • To me meta is something you can use to back up a case or a defense of a player, but not something to soley convict them upon. For example Corin playing differently is something againt him, but it shouldnt be enough to lynch him on by himself. Same with K7, his behavior isnt ideal, while meta is a point to his favor, it doesnt absolve him 100% from being scum.
    
    That said again though, lets lynch Corin or manito, cmon people.

  Essentially saying that he thinks K7's behavior is scummy, and his meta is also scummy, that it absolves him to some degree (which is utter BS in my opinion). So LF has again defended K7, this time based primarily off K7's meta. (do you really want all the examples of this Spyrex?)

  Heh. Go read mini 628. I was scum, and won an endgame where it was me, a mason and K7 as cop. K7 being K7 helped me there and got him lynched. I have looked in other games and he is always the same. What I said though I hold true to, meta is something small to add or take from a player being scummy. I dont get this point again though, how is defending K7 make me scum?
  

  Post #847 - LF continues to be pushy about Corin, funny quote:

  • less talking about Corin and more voting Corin would be a very good thing to do here

Almost like he's discouraging people from discussing the case against Corin, and pushing people to just vote arbitrarily. This flows into his attempts to defend K7 by pushing people to vote elsewhere (who was at L-2 at this point, by the way).

Explained, in detail, early D2. If you really were reading everything I said instead of hunting for the stuff that you can take out of context, you would of found it.

Post #876 is further deflection from discussion of other things besides lynching Corin, based on a very brief PBPA LF posted the day before. Funny how Llama jumps around, pushing people with votes who aren't there to defend themselves against LF's arguments, but once they come back and defend themselves, he switches to someone else less active.

If you are accusing me of lurker hunting here you need to take a look back at your LoS of FL/lurker/lurker from D1. I am not quite sure though if you are looking at the same 876 I am. What I did in that one was try and get reactions to my PBPA as people didnt react as was intended, I didnt change my vote or anything like your interpretation seems to imply.

Post #887 - Llama replies to Corin's statement about pressure voting, which gives huge insight into Llama's general thoughts on what I call "bully tactics." Llama is more than willing to vote you if he feels that his case (whether it is that well done or not) is being ignored by either you or by other players. Here's the pertinent quote:

The point is, my vote of you falls under your third line, I see you as scum and

by avoiding my case, people seem to be disregarding your case and going to one I dont favor in comparison. So I am putting a pressure vote on you to get some answers and to get other people to pay attention as well.

As you can see, this particular quote illustrates exactly what I have been saying all along - Llama will pressure if he feels people aren't listening/following his direction (following one that Llama doesn't "favor"). LF's case against Corin at this point is based largely on a meta read of Corin's only other game on this site (another contradiction to LF saying K7 is "noob town being scummy" (when K7 is clearly experienced) and that Corin and I were not - see my red text above).

There is nothing, I repete, NOTHING wrong with voting someone if they ignore a case presented against them. If you made a case, it got ignored so you started looking somewhere else, it would be a big point against you right there. If you also paid attention to my Corin case posts, I was not voting for him purely on meta. Was it a point that encoruraged me to vote him? Yes. Was it my main point? No.

Post #901 - FL supports LF's wagon on Corin (which as you can see above, was very poorly supported if anyone had really bothered to look deeper into the facts - I wish now that I'd had more time to do what I'm doing now, can really see the flaws).

Look you cant pad your case against me with what FL and K7 did. Also is this seems to be laiden with AtE in the form of "I dear, I wish I had been around back then to prevent that from happening".

Post #912 - LF makes this statement, which also made me laugh:

I will state this one more time because some people dont seem to be getting it.

Meta is not my primary reason for voting Corin.

If I had never seen him in a game before, I still would be voting for him.

While it is used as

an addition

to my case, it is not the primary reason I think he should be lynched. If anyone thinks I want him lynched on meta alone, they are way off.

You will note that LF makes no attempt to actually state what his primary reason for voting Corin is in this statement. Corin himself even states this in Post #913, stating that LF's only apparent reason for voting Corin is to pressure him into responding (which is very humorous because of the fact that Corin is tied on votes with K7 at this point, 4 vs 4, based off lurker/meta evidence primarily). Armlx also backs this up in Post #916, stating that after a reread, there's really no damning evidence against Corin outside of decreased post frequency based on the meta of his one and only other game.

Remember when I said that you were hypocritical? Yeah I am saying it again. What I have said in that post is at least as much as you normally throw out there when you decide to talk about FL instead of criticize the main wagons. Also what does Armlx not agreeing with what I had to say about Corin have to do with my alignment? You are drawing a lot of conclusions that say I am scum from what you think other players are.

Post #960 - LF makes the statement that "Corin hasn't defended himself against [Llama] at all" - which is patent BS; Corin directly called out for Llama to post the evidence (which didn't exist) and Llama just ignored it (see Post #913) LF seems to get frustrated because Corin said LF's case had no substance (and it didn't, as noted by both Armlx and Spyrex). LF's response to one of his ideas being shot down with logic is to ignore the logic, and just keep on plugging away at refuted case points. (For LF's super-dooper PBPA of Corin, see Post #855 - it consists of a brief recap of Corin's posts and 10 lines total of actual input/factfinding attempts, which are really more just speculation and guesswork at what Corin may or may not have been thinking on D1/1.5. Basically, the case is crap.)

Unless I am missing it, Corin never did respond to 855 which I refrenced when he asked for a case in 913. There was also what I posted when I joined the game, as well as a few more posts scattered throughout the day. A lot of this is being viewed now with hindsight that automatically makes you have the upper hand since all my reasoning can be taken down a few pegs for being "wrong". Again you are pulling other players into the picture though saying "well they didnt like your case" which again I dont see how it makes me scum and makes you look like its an attempt to suck up to them.

Post #976 - LF again makes the statement that Corin is scummier than K7, and the tie-breaker for this decision - Corin's meta from one other game. Ironic, isn't it, that this post completely contradicts #912's "meta is not my primary reason for voting Corin"?

Post #1025 and #1040- Interesting post from Corin - pointing out that LF is "guessing" at KoC's probable list, which very much looks like an attempt to control/skew the List environment, by placing Corin on there, even though there's no solid evidence (there's actually evidence that KoC was pro-Corinth) supporting this hypothetical list.

I can get you quotes where KoC seemed fine lynching Corin (you can start with 856). The day needed to move forward so I looked at past posts of KoC and put up what he seemed to be thinking. I even signified it in my post.

Post #1045 - LF again defends K7 because K7 "is not shamelessly waggoning the highest vote getter" - so where does that put me, by his logic? I don't jump on high vote count wagons either, unless there's some clear evidence to convince me, so why isn't Llama defending me based on that?

You werent about to get lynched. Its self-preservation 101.

Post #1048 - LF continues to push the Corin lynch over a K7 lynch as deadline approaches, even though the Corin case is pretty much unfounded meta/lurker in basis.

Hurrah for pot shots at my case. I still think Corin was acting scummy, if no one agreed with me, he wouldnt of been lynched no matter how much noise I made. Nice misrep on why I wanted him lynched too.

Post #1059 - LF continues to push Corin lynch over K7. Immediately after this, both SC and OP change their votes from K7 to Corin, putting the vote count back at a 1 vote difference betwen K7/Corin.

Please. Stop. Using. Other. Players. Actions. To. Justify. A. Vote. Of. Me.

Post #1080 - K7 takes a pot-shot at Corinthian, saying "how is coronithion more help full then me?" - which makes no sense, very scummy move, completely ignored by all.

Again, you are attacking other players in what I think is inteded to be a case on me.

Post #1084 - LF FoS's anyone not currently on one of the major wagons, in an attempt to pressure them to switch their votes. I call him out on it in the following post.

That was discussed quite a bit already in D2. Again thanks for reading the things that make me look scum only.

Posts #1087 and #1088 - Armlx switches his vote to K7 (tying the votes up 5 vs 5). FL, the person who "doesn't vote often" immediately switches his vote to Corin with ZERO supporting statements, breaking the tie, and putting Corin one vote up on Thursday, 2 days before deadline. Interestingly enough, this ends up being the deciding vote at deadline, go figure.

This doesnt pretain to me, stop padding your case, etc etc

Post #1106 - Joubert shows his face and brings up another pertinent point - in his reread, he is unable to find any major flaws/scumtells in Corin's posting, and he ALSO asks for evidence supporting the case besides "doubtful behavior".

See what I have said before. Another player disagreeing with my evidence by no means makes me scum.

Now moving into D2.0...
Post #1132 - SC makes a pertinent point that I covered earlier in this post, showing evidence that LF discouraged discussion of Corin's case, and encouraged just voting for him arbitrarily - further evidence that LF's pushy behavior had a significant effect on D1.5, going from L-2 on K7 to a flip-flop (thanks to FL's vote) to have Corin lynched instead, without any hard evidence.

This has been addressed, thanks for reading.

Post #1137 - LF immediately goes on the offensive on KoC (who at this point, has now voted K7 again). Makes the statement that the Corin wagon was hard to push because of the K7 wagon (no kidding? Hard to push a wagon with no evidence).

Why is this a scum tell? I go after my top suspect.

Post #1146 - KoC goes off on LF for failing to explain his "shut up and vote Corin already" tactics from D1.5. LF tries to brush this away in Post #1148, saying that it was a "put your money where your mouth is" effort, which is total baloney. People were starting to discuss a lynch, and all Llama wanted to do was stop the discussion and actual fact finding, and push the lynch forward.

Thats what it was. When discussion about someone you think is scum is occuring but votes arent, you try and get some votes out there. That was probally worded poorly but I have explained it already. If you dont want to belive it all I can do is explain it again, in smaller words.

Posts #1149 and #1154 - SC calls out LF for manipulating players and pushing/pressuring people in an attempt to move votes around.

You're free to state your opinions about somebody and there's nothing wrong with agreeing with them, but as rude as this sounds, people can decide who's scummy without your help, thank you very much.

I already addressed this point as well. On the same page too if memory serves.

Post #1167 - Armlx paraphrases the exact same trifecta I've come to a conclusion on recently - K7/FL/LF, because of the way K7 was defended by LF and FL during D1.

Again stop trying to kiss up to armlx. I have extensively given reasons for not wanting FL and K7 lynched D1.

Post #1213 - I call out LF for finding me scummy because I refuse to jump on wagons (which is ironically, his very same reasoning for viewing K7 as town).

You are pushing a dead wagon for the first two days, it makes it look like you are being useful when you really arent. By doing this and rejecting all other wagons (with the exception of FS who sure wasnt in that trifecta of yours) you can appear town since you are essentially never responseable for any mislynches. K7 wagoning would of been self-preservation. You voting K7 D1 wouldnt of.

Post #1238 - LF starts getting antsy because people are ignoring his "posts against KoC and Manito".

Point being? I want to at least hear why people are rejecting my ideas.

Post #1256 - LF defends K7/FL again, by saying that the CF/Spyrex vote collaboration deal to vote on K7/FL on the second half of the day is "a bad idea". Doesn't really say why it is a bad idea, especially considering both CF and Spyrex viewed FL/K7 as very scummy - LF just seems to think lynching FL/K7 is a bad idea in general. Funny how that works, huh?

If they went through with that plan, no one has true responsability for any mislynches that occurs. The same thing I reacted to when the idea of chain lynching fl, k7, fs, koc was introduced. Voting patterns are pretty big in this game, when people make plans that abolish reasoning behind them then that is scummy and shouldnt be allowed to happen.

Post #1266 - LF again requests a KoC lynch, based of a very underhanded move by KoC jumping on the FS wagon - but what few people noticed is that KoC jumped on under the condition that FL was the lynch target for 1.5. Makes sense that LF would push harder for KoC, considering KoC has stated his wish to vote FL next.

You still seem to be basing other players alignments that you do NOT KNOW on how you are viewing me. Also nice misrep of why I voted KoC. Dont go putting words in my mouth. On top of my previous reasoning for wanting KoC lynched, that FS vote clinched it.

Post #1272 - LF states again that he wants KoC lynched, followed by FS (

which is REALLY funny considering his reason for pushing the KoC lynch is because KoC just VOTED for FS. Anyone see the contradiction in that? LF is calling KoC scummy for jumping on the "easy wagon" by voting FS, and then LF is suddenly more than willing to vote FS too?

)

When did I say lets chain lynch? I said we lynch KoC and go from there. That means if KoC was scum, there would of been no way that I would of voted for FS. Given that KoC was town though, it made a FS lynch much more acceptable to me. So please, stop misinterpreting my posts so much. I never said "hey guys lets lynch both of them no questions" I said "Lets lynch KoC and use that information to make a decision on FS".

Post #1274 - LF now shows that SC has moved up onto his scum list in place of Corin, which seems pretty OMGUS considering SC was the one to call out LF's behavior back in Post #1149/50. This appears to be a common tactic for LF, putting people who oppose him or who point out his scummy behavior on his LoS, so he can refer to that LoS later and not appear OMGUSsy.

I made it fairly clear that SC was on my LoS in 1137, that was before he ever voted me. Good try calling it OMGUS though and trying to make your "llama OMGUSes" claim have some merit.

Hopefully this is exhaustive enough, to this point, for you Spyrex? If the pattern isn't clear at this point, I'm more than happy to continue my research.

[/quote]

Feel free to continue. I actually am enjoying this quite a bit, staying up late at night wondering what wacky way you will misinterpret me next.

That "confirm vote" was cute though... and pointless. I can do it too watch

Confirm vote: Manito

[LlamaFluff]

I will try to put up a response tomorrow but this is still what I have a hard time with.

You use things that K7 and FL have done, and say "See this makes you scum". That does not follow a logical path when you are basing so much of your case around that. The world works in a way that says A->B->C is how you arrive at a conclusion. You are saying "yeah I think A and B are true, so lets just skip to C". This is what is going to happen and what is happening in my opinion.

K7 and manito are probally scum together, that explains why manito has been keeping him at a number two suspect for a long time, and it explains why he never attempted to save him D1.5 while calling FL scummy for doing so. What is occuring now is that he is attempting to get me lynched in order to help K7 later in the game. In a A->B->C path where A is scum and C is town. It is highly benifical to the scum to get player C lynched first, as it usually cuts down on how much player C is suspected. This is what is happening now.

Does anyone else realize that despite the fact that manito has been calling K7 scum for a majority of this game he not only passed on a chance to get him lynched but now is so assured of his scumminess, that he is not even bothering to get him lynched, but instead launching an OMGUS inspired attack against me using the fact that "K7 is scum" to base parts of his case?

[LlamaFluff]

Only been calling K7 scum since my re-read. Always was just suspicious of him because of his lurking.

This. This is one of my big reasons I want you lynched. At the Corin/K7 lynch you were just "suspicious" of K7, at least enough to put him in your top three spots. Now, when the lynch became between Corin and K7 you threw away your vote. I see zero, zero reason town would ever throw away a vote when the lynch is one of two in the first place, and even less reason to throw away a vote when the lynch is between someone they consider town, and someone they consider suspicious.

The fact that you technically were defending K7 here by not voting him, while calling Corin town, and K7 scummy, and FL scummy for voting Corin near deadline, makes me increasingly comfortable calling a manito-K7 scum pairing. Nothing else explains why you seem to be so willing to call K7 scum, but did nothing about it when presented with the chance to lynch him.

[LlamaFluff]

If both of you are so convinced of K7 being scum, why aren't either of you voting him? Since you both think the other is partners with him.

Apart from what is happening with manito I dont see a lot of reason to really think K7 is scum. I want to lynch in a manner that actually is logical, not one where I start trying to lynch player B because I think player A is scum. If manito is town, then I would rather not string up K7 right now, im not sure if this is clear though as I am having a hard time explaining it.

Simply my logic says A connects to B connects to C. I dont have what I need to prove B comfortably if A is yet to be proven. Turning on K7 right now would be the equivilant of what manito is doing with me, because K7 and FL are scum, I am scum, which is incorrect and indefenseable with both of them alive.

Please ask questions though and jump in. I know that I dont like reading games where there is long back and forths between players, but I know I am stubborn enough to keep fighting untill something happens.

[LlamaFluff]

My logical path is not "K7/FL are scum, so Llama must be scum" - my logical path is "Llama is scum, and he's been collaborating and defending K7/FL, who are also more than likely scum".

This is something that you cant do. You are not able to make assumptions and use them as facts to push my case. It is really that simple, you just cant do it. Really. Making a case based on assumptions of facts, that are proveable, is complete BS.

[LlamaFluff]

That in itself has nothing to do with K7 and FL being scummy. Everything else surrounding K7 and FL sure supports it though.

This again is my point. You cant support a case with assumptions of alignments. The problem for you though is when you take away actions of FL and K7 your case against me shrinks quite a bit, so you keep attempting to justify the need to have them in the case.

[LlamaFluff]

Since I have more reason to believe LlamaFluff is scummier than Manito given the former's contradictions and I see little if any case on the latter, I think I'm justified if I

vote LlamaFluff

right now.

Please, elaborate

[LlamaFluff]

FL/K7/SC?

Calling it now. After I was wrong the first time about calling it. SC definitely has the "always a secondary suspect" thing going on.

If you replace FL with manito I would buy it. At this point though I still would rather be lynching mantio over SC and definantly over K7. If manito flips town, yeah I go back to my K7-really annoying lurker town read.

The connection to me comes from how manito has played him as a suspect matched with D1.5 actions. Attacking someone on assumptions though is scummy though, so I wont focus on K7 untill I am assured of manito.

SC I am a bit more willing to vote today, but still would rather lynch manito since my read on him is stronger, plus his flip would do more for me then SCs flip when I look at my possible pairings and dependant suspects.

[LlamaFluff]

Sorry for lack of posting. Had some stuff happen IRL that made sapped some time from my ability to post, which made deadlined games a priority. It did constitute an avatar change though, so dont go losing my posts.

@Thad - Have you read through day 3 yet and if so thoughts? Also, apart from armlx and Spyrex, who do you find suspicious?

Right now I still much prefer a manito lynch to a SC lynch. If people really want I can reitterate my case on him in another post so it doesnt seem so broken up as it probally does at this point given the page on page debate we had a bit back. It also is interesting that SC and manito are now both going against me when I have expressed suspicion of manito since when I joined the game well over 50 pages ago, and SC since the beginning of day 2.

@SC - I dont think you have really explained your vote on me yet. Reasons for it?

[LlamaFluff]

@SC - I dont think you have really explained your vote on me yet. Reasons for it?

I believe I've brought up you being hypocritical.

Quotes and evidance are the spice of life I hear

OREGANO

Netlava - 2 (armlx, orangepenguin)
LlamaFluff - 2 (Manito, StrangerCoug)
StrangerCoug - 2 (TheSweatpantsNinja, SpryeX)
Manito - 1 (LlamaFluff)
armlx - 1 (ThAdmiral)

Not voting - killa seven, Netlava

10/6

-Mod

[LlamaFluff]

So what is wrong with my 627? If its a quote of me being "bossy" yeah its me trying to get people to act, is that scummy?

Also... I still dont get why you are voting me. Its because you got mixed up in a game and thought that I contridicted myself and I didnt origionally, which is now proved false. And for reasons that I covered and you accepted during D2.

Anything other reason for the vote?

[LlamaFluff]

Post on manito forthcoming, bear with me in the meantime.

[LlamaFluff]

Is this time for megapost battle? IS IT?

Oh its so on. My manito post should be done tomorrow

[LlamaFluff]

The “Manito is scum lets lynch him” post

I will try to be making this as concise as possible so it doesn’t turn into some monster post that eats up pages upon pages in word, but there is quite a bit to cover here.

1 - The Day 1.5 wagon in relation to K7

Now, the final vote count for day 1.5 left Corin at a deadline lynch over k7 by one vote. During this scramble between the two players where votes got shuffled around quite a bit, manito kept his vote on FL. During the list activity I put out during D1.5 though we find that manitos LoS was FL, Joubert, K7. This is where things get weird. During the last part of that day, manito was presented with two options, vote for his third suspect on his LoS and stop someone who he sure appeared to have a town read (and now is arguing for his life that he did) to get lynched. Or he could of kept his vote on FL and let someone that he had a town read on get killed without making any strong attempts to prevent this from happening. Manito played the end of the day to the extent where he allowed a perceived town player get lynched and let a player he had, and since has vehemently, called scum. This is not a town action.

1.1 – Use of Day 1.5 wagon in cases

Since the lynch of Corin, at most possible opportunities, we have seen manito throw out the fact that people voted for Corin over K7 as a scumtell. This means that manito thinks that K7 is scum, how else could this be considered a scumtell? This relates back to the D1.5 lynch. He is now getting on people for protecting the player he JUST had the opportunity to get lynched. This is just further evidence that there was an intentional avoidance of the entire D1.5 lynching scene by manito.

1.2 – Stance on k7

There has been some flip-flops on k7 being scum or not as well. In manitos 47 there are beyond obvious implications that he has a read of scum on k7. How else does he have “defended k7” as a scumtell? When I challenged him on these points, he quickly dropped k7 to town though, due to the point that he had been not posting in his 51. When we return to his 56 though, and the small debate of “why didn’t you vote K7 D1.5?” had blown over, he goes back to putting K7 back on his LoS. This is attributed to lurking, which is the same reason that he had K7 drop off his list in 51.

2 – Avoidance of Wagons

Manito has done a good job so far at calling nearly every mislynch as it happens. D1.5, he called Corin perfectly. D2.0 he called KoC with relative ease. Most other people were “fooled” by at least one of these wagons. Not manito though, he just clung to his “FL is scum, not voting anyone else” statements. The two instances where he did break from this pattern and vote on a lynching wagon were fl and FS, which both have been used to his advantage. fls lynch quickly got turned against FL and has been used quite a bit to try and get that wagon to the lynching stage. If you look at the timing of votes and posts though there is an interesting pattern that occurred. Four posts after manito moved to a fl vote from an (interestingly enough) FoS on k7, he already set in on FL, this was still being done on day 1.0. In his 13, there is also a distinct move to get FL to vote for fl.

2.1 – Constant push of FL

Since quite argueablely his 11th post in the game, manito has expressed intrest in a lynch of FL. We all know he wants a lynch but at the same time he has not taken many great steps to assure that the lynch would take place. There are mentions of the case and some small debates which mainly are concentrated in early D1.5, but dried up since then. For all of D2.0 the most that manito does is add the Corin vote to why he wants FL lynched. Time wise he appears to spend more time defending KoC then attacking FL. We saw more of the same in 2.5, defending himself this time though. Its fairly clear that manito doesn’t seem to have a lynch of FL a high priority in this game. He mentions the name quite a bit but around this point in the game I have to hunt for any concrete reasoning for the lynch, you would think that something that has been pushed for the past five lynches would of first been easily identified and second actually pushed to completion at this point. Neither have occurred. I think this is just scum camping on a wagon so he doesn’t have to do any scumhunting, just point to FL and say “theres the scum”.

3.1 – The Llama is Bossy Case

A major part of why I seem to be suspected by manito right now is that he says that I am too bossy for him. I am being accused of voting people to make them listen to me, and forcing everyone to vote with me. This is not only an over exaggeration, since I believe the only players I have voted for are Corin, KoC, FS, manito, but also blatantly false. I do try and get my ideas out there, it helps to see the reactions of a large group of people. I do try and make people act, so it can be reviewed later. I don’t run around and try and get everyone who doesn’t listen to me scum. This “scumtell” of his is the equivalent of the “over defensive” tell. They both are very weak at best, and are commonly used to pad cases that need extra evidence to make them look desirable to other players.

3.2 – Guilt by Association Case

Manito always seems to have a hard time pushing my case without mentioning that k7 and FL (netlava) are scum. By doing this he is using an assumption of other players alignments to get my lynched. In the chain of posts where manito presents a case, there were 39 posts refrenced that he called me scum for. Out of those 39 posts, manito uses “k7 and FL are scum” based arguments in 18. Nearly half of everything that was presented against me are conditional of k7 and FL being scum. The fact that manito is trying to push the end of a chain (me) on the beginning of a chain (k7 and FL) is scummy. There is a natural order of proof and progression in this game, and manito is trying to throw it aside while at the same time using it for evidence.

[LlamaFluff]

I'd like YOU to go through and poke some holes in what I'm saying about SC. Arm and TSPN too.

From what I see there are not really holes in it, but for the most part it consits of a repetiton of fact being "SC is

schizophrenic

indecisive

opportunistic with his voting."

I agree with you on that, there does seem to be a lack of scumhunting coming from him, and a decent ammount of "follow the leader" as has been found on the main wagons, or at least the ones that are most vocal.

I just think that when you compare the ammount of scumtells that have been in this game between SC and manito that we should be lynching manito today instead of him.

[LlamaFluff]

Making it big and red does not make it a valid point.

First of the posts that I reference are the post number of yours in the thread. I personally don’t like hypers though (probally because I cant link to specific posts or stuff like that). I just pull up a new tab/window and have it list all posts by the player.

I still am not sure how you keep coming off as calling me scum for the Corin lynch not being “strong” in your opinion. This will be the first time I have had to argue the validity of a case AFTER a player was lynched using it. I guess my

sweet talking

bullying people outweighs evidence.

Anyways. I presented quite a bit of evidence against Corin during D1.5. The posts that I directly presented evidence are my 5, 49 (I wasn’t voting him until my 46) and 52. My 52 was post 855, and reading the rest of the day, I don’t ever see a response to that post. We see Corin debate KoC being suspicious of him in 1025 (no response to 855 yet, been almost 200 posts). Different point argued again with no response to my post in 1040 (I did respond to this in 1043). Corin more or less makes a goodbye post in 1071 (again that’s not a response to 855).

That’s it for Corin really. I made my case in my fifth post, did a PBPA in 49, made another case in 52. Corin didn’t respond to my 855, even when I referenced him to it. He argued other small points but if a suspect refuses to respond to a main point that does not mean that you stop pushing them. All this argument is seems to be “You got town lynched”. You are reaching right now for something to make me scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Wow, you just changed half of your case. Now its not "you didnt respond to Corin", you just added in a bunch of stuff that basically ammounts to "you had a weak case that lynched town". First of all, a weak case is purely subjective. I thought the case was the best one, so I pushed it, just like you thought the best case was FL. If FL was lynched and flipped town, that does not allow me to say "scum scum, look at that weak case he pushed on town". With that logic every town mislynch we should just lynch the creator. In hindsight there can be flaws exposed in every case, the only airtight ones are cop investigations.

Your 855 "evidence" was weak at best - pure speculation about what you thought his intentions could be based on many other factors that you had no way of backing up. Speculating that an FoS on FL on D1.0 was to set up a lynch on 1.5 on FL *IF* fl flipped town is faulty logic.

See, this is attacking me by attacking my case. Also, if you really were able to read through D1.0 without realizing that a fl-town flip would create quite a few votes for FL the next day, you are really dense. I could see it coming from pages before the first lynch occured.

Most of your case against him in 855 is - and this is a really big shocker - he's attacking FL. Who you keep defending. A defense you refuse to explain, and continue to dodge when asked about.

I dont see a strong case on FL. The best thing is the "I would of hammered". That "never vote" thing is annoying, but again, was predictable. I still dont see why a Corin vote was scummy too, and you havent explained (at least not well) why voting Corin over K7 is scummy.

You called FL innocent because 3 people you thought were scum were pushing to get her lynched - yet you've managed to get 2 of the 3 on that list lynched (and they both flipped TOWN) - so your logic is shot full of holes at this point - saying FL is still innocent when it has been revealed that town has been pushing the wagon on her gives you ZERO reason to proclaim her innocence. (see Post #471 for proof of this)

Having town vote for FL does not mean that she is scum first off, our lynches have proven that already. Now, you also are misrepresenting me in acting like it is only these players having voted for her that make me think that FL is town. As I already stated, I dont see much of a case against them, so am not going to vote them. The early votes did play a part of me forming opinions on players, but it is not what I base every read off.

I'd like to point out, you completely discount and ignore facts put right in front of you when the person who puts them there happens to be on your scum list at the time. Open your eyes and see the evidence.

I am looking at the evidence. You are a better lynch. SC is a better lynch. There are multiple other better lynches.

I have already shown ample evidence that you IGNORED multiple requests for more evidence on Corin. Please read post #913 - Corin asks you then to restate your case. Armlx also says he doesn't see the case against Corin in posts #916 and #918. KoC posts in #927 that Corin's only remotely scummy act was the "I refuse to respond to that kind of bullshit" statement, versus K7's multiple scummy acts.

Hey cool! Now we get back to your original post that I already defended against. You start by saying there wasnt 100% consent on my case. I already dont see how that qualifies as a point, as that can be used against any case ever made in this game or practically case in every game. Also I refrenced him to my last case. I am not going to retype everything if it hasnt gotten a response.

Post #947 - OP doesn't find Corin scummy.

And...... ?

Post#960 - your reply to Corin's #913, where you say he doesn't defend himself, and you

completely ignore his request for you to

RESTATE

the case, not refer back to the pitiful one in #855.

OK - Let me make this perfectly clear. I am NOT going to redo an entire case against a player if they havent even responded to the inital one I created. Corin wanted a case against him, I told him where to find it. Also again, you are taking a shot at my case which I already addressed. Sure is seeming hard for you to attack me without mentioning my "weak" case or other players actions or thoughts.

Post #1069 - OP says Llama has built a strong case on Corin, which leads to:

Isnt this more a point against OP?

Post #1071 - Corin asks what the case is, because the only evidence he can find that Llama is using is lurking and refusing to respond to Llama's posts initially (because of bully voting to elicit a response). He also states that the people agreeing with Llama or citing scummy behavior ALSO fail to quote or cite specific examples. You never respond to this post (even though you make a post in 1084 to attempt to push the people not on wagon to jump on) and you say nothing outside of 1084. Were you hoping the deadline would save you from having to respond to Corin's questions and your actions on 1.5?

Ok, you are getting stubborn here. I presented a case, it didnt get responded to. A case was asked for, I pointed him at it. The case still never was responded to. If I dont refrence my case that I have pointed out multiple times before 100% of the time when doing so has proven futal so far sue me. Also again, nice reaching with the deadline idea.

Post#1106 - Joubert rereads and can't find the scummy behavior everyone says Corin has.

And this is a point against me beacsue.... ?

Why did you refuse to restate or provide more evidence on Corin, given all the above information? You were asked multiple times, and your case had doubt thrown upon it by multiple parties. Your refusal to respond because it is a past case on a person who is already lynched is DODGING. Quit hiding, defend your actions, because they alone are incredibly scummy, and the fact that you continue to refuse to defend your actions is even more scummy.

What do you really want to accomplish here? A resurection of a Corin-scum case with you playing this part? I proved enough reasoning to put a vote down in my opinion. People agreed with me and voted along me, people disagreed and votes where they wanted. Corin seemed to have problems responding to my case. I presented it a few times, and it was ignored quite a bit by him.

I dont care if you are now ranting about how you dont think it was a good case. I made my case, it wasnt reponded to quite a few times even with prodding. When it was responded to, I returned the favor. How am I scum when the person I make a case against chooses not to respond but just asks for it to be stated over and over?

I DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM

StrangerCoug - 5 (TheSweatpantsNinja, SpryeX, armlx, Manito, orangepenguin)
SpyreX - 3 (Netlava, ThAdmiral, StrangerCoug)
Manito - 1 (LlamaFluff)

Not voting - killa seven

10 alive, 6 to lynch.

-Mod

[LlamaFluff]

I'm showing quite clearly that you pushed a case with no reasonable support for your case, and I think that pretty clearly shows that you're scum.

So getting a wagon to a deadline lynch is not reasonable support? Does the same logic make you scum for having pushed FL for a long time without enough support for a lynch? You pushing me right now without getting me lynched? I dont see how this point works at all.

You're more interested in lynching anyone you can build momentum on, and not in who might actually be scum given the supporting evidence.

Yes of course! Thats why I started my own cases, I was looking for an easy lynch. Would of been pretty foolish of me to go after K7 and FL if I wanted an easy lynch now wouldnt it of been?

The fact that you continue to dodge questions about it just because it's in the past is both hypocritical (because you're refusing to respond to the case against you right now) and also damning because ultimately, you can't defend yourself because you have nothing to support your defense.

You have nothing to support your attack. Right now you are saying I am scum (checks notes, this keeps changing it seems). Ah yes. For 1) Pushing Corin *to a lynch* with little support, and 2) Pushing easy cases. I honestly dont know what you want me defending against here.

I really would rather be lynching manito then SC today.

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff, what is your opinion of SpyreX?

I have him as pretty town still, maybe because I partially feel he is getting attacked for reasons similar to me, that being just being wrong with suspicions. In short I dont see me voting for him today, and if it came down to you or him, I would be voting you without too much hesitation.

Manito is still the play to me.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok, I am seeming to not be running into anyone saying manito is town here with what I am pushing, and seem to be getting some acceptance on my case. That leaves me wondering why I am the only person who is voting for him right now. So what are peoples opinions on manito and would you consider moving your vote to him today?

[LlamaFluff]

I think SC is the better lynch.

Why? You have been pretty quiet for putting out suspicions as of late.

[LlamaFluff]

I've given too much Llama. This has to happen. I am the Alpha. You need to be my Omega.

That sounds like a REALLY bad pickup line.

I am not going to just let my case go either though, this will be the second day I have been pushing him and I let it go way to easily the first time.

[LlamaFluff]

I think SC is the most likely to flip scum. If he doesn't, then I am going with my first pick, Spyrex.

This seems contridictory. SC is most likely to flip scum yet your first pick is Spyrex?

Also why Spyrex if SC flips town? Why not after FS? Why after people expresses suspicion of him first?

[LlamaFluff]

Thats kind of what is bugging me about what is going on, on multiple levels. The fact that we are playing a "you are wrong you are the lynch" game in a vanilla setup is already a bad move in my opinion, but the fact that everyone is agreeing with it concerns me further.

Now we are getting to a point where it seems people are all but posting "Llama please hammer" with each post. When that is combined with how people have shrugged off the manito lynch I think that I am getting played a bit. There is too much happening that is setting off bells in my mind, and with the day starting to stalemate I have no real clue what the next move is.

It just boils down to the SC lynch to me. While I have had SC as a high suspect for a while, the wagon is an odd one. There is manito who I have made my suspicions of perfectly clear, and then OP who I have had that feeling in the back of my mind that is scum. The sudden appearance of him and willingness to say "If SC is town lets quicklynch Spyrex" makes me uncomfortable. I like the case enough to put a vote on it if I was blinded to the current votes of the other players, but when other people are voting where I see them voting, it just is unsettling.

I have two people I consider very town (spyrex/armlx) and two people I consider scummy (manito/OP) all pushing the same legitimate wagon (SC). But if SC is town then Spyrex probably gets lynched and I am just thinking as I type dont mind me.

Bah. Confused. I almost want to hammer SC but at the same time I am concerned about what happens if he is town. This all ends up with "I would rather lynch manito", although it seems like that might not be happening afterall. Just at a crossroad here. Give me some time to collect myself.

[LlamaFluff]

SpyreX is gambling with his life. If he is scum, which I think, I couldn't care less about it

So what happened to me or manito?

[LlamaFluff]

I just implied (#1954) that Manito's vote on me was opportunistic, so the two of you are not completely forgotten.

Ok then! Lets try two questions

1) Who is your ideal lynch today?
2) Who are scum?

[LlamaFluff]

Last question before I go debate this with myself

1.) SpyreX

Why?

[LlamaFluff]

Nice attempt at

ad hominem tu quoque[/b], Manito.

I still am mulling over your responses to the other questions. I am dealing with studying for a calc midterm tomorrow (directional derivatives and gradients anyone?) so it might take a while to get my (more indepth) thoughts up. To the main point I quoted this though - I have a pretty small vocab and speak just about only english (I even fail at that). What does "ad hominem tu quoque" mean. It sounds like a mixed drink to me.

[LlamaFluff]

Sorry one more.

1.) SpyreX

Why change to Spyrex when you did? It seemed like you waited untill he was under pressure, and was the largest wagon since me-manito werent going anywhere.

[LlamaFluff]

You know what? No. I am putting my foot (paw?) down on this one.

I dont want a Spyrex lynch right now, and if I cant get a manito lynch today I sure as hell am not going to let a player I have as town get lynched over a suspect player.

While I still think manito is scummier, SC really has been confusing me today. He has fumbled between me and manito in the early game without really coming up with any concrete reasons for either of us, just lynching (at times incorrectly) from what we have used. When the replacements shifted attention to Spyrex, its just an opportunity for SC to get someone pushing him off his back. The fact that Spyrex got ignored by him untill it was called a case is enough for me to call this blatant self-preservation, if not also OMGUS.

unvote, vote StrangerCoug

I want some good reasoning for the switch. At least a better case. I dont see what you just wrote up on Spyrex even close to what I am pushing manito on, or what has been pushed on you.

[LlamaFluff]

EBWOP

"just lynching" should be "just leeching"

[LlamaFluff]

You suck LF!

no u

Seriously though. I dont think that Spyrex is scum. I have looked over what you said, what netlava said, and I just dont see it. This is turning into SC/Spyrex, I am backing who I think is scum out of the two, even if they arent my prefered lynch of the entire player lsit.

[LlamaFluff]

mod

TSN may need replacing, he is AWOL as mod in another game.

[LlamaFluff]

vote manito

Still hold true everything I said yesterday. Dont want to get into a post war unless people want it.

...JUST IN CASE THERE'S AN EVEN BIGGER GIANT ROBOT CRAB JUST AROUND THE CORNER

SpyreX - 1 (ThAdmiral)
killa seven - 1 (armlx)
Manito - 1 (LlamaFluff)

Not voting - killa seven, Netlava, SpyreX, TheSweatpantsNinja, orangepenguin, Manito

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

-Mod

[LlamaFluff]

So what changed between this

I think SC is the most likely to flip scum. If he doesn't, then I am going with my first pick, Spyrex.

This seems contridictory. SC is most likely to flip scum yet your first pick is Spyrex?

Also why Spyrex if SC flips town? Why not after FS? Why after people expresses suspicion of him first?

You're actually right. That makes no sense. I am relying on the word of the person I think is scummy. Instead of lynching SC, I am going to

unvote, vote Spyrex

. That makes a lot more sense.

And this?

Lets hope you're right Spyrex.

STOP

Hammertime!

Unvote, Vote: SC

I would like to see Spyrex pick a wagon before wagons take form too.

[LlamaFluff]

..I thought I picked all my wagons.

I mean make a vote

[LlamaFluff]

I just thought it was odd that you only jumped after I put Spyrex closer to a lynch, and we weren't getting anywhere - nobody was going to lynch Manito that day, let alone Spyrex. I thought TheAd was suspicious, but SC flipped town, so my suspicion that TheAd was his partner after his post regarding my jump on Spyrex's wagon kind of raised my suspicions, yet, I don't think it holds any water considering SC was town.

I still dont get it. You said that Spyrex was your top suspect first off, followed by SC. When I challenged you about where your vote was, you moved it to Spyrex, making it 4-4. Spyrex started ranting and threatening a self-hammer, I decided to vote the player out of the two who were going to be discussed was scum.

Then you decided to move back to SC, after less then 12 hours due to the game stalling out? The votes were 5-4, two votes (yours included) had recently changed. How is that stalling out?

I probably won't be going after Spyrex right now. He is acting too..don't know the best word for it, but his behavior just strikes me as something a scum would NOT do. A bit wifom probably, but yeah. I think you actually are more likely to be scum than Spyrex is.

Why? You said pretty explicitly that you thought he was scum yesterday. You even voted him. Is that an OMGUS attack too? Nice.

I don't know where to place my vote. I could vote Spy. I really could. I don't think that is the right move. Of course, I totally expect all my words here to be twisted by LF or someone.

I am trying to figure out what you are doing. Your actions arent really matching up with what I keep thinking you are going to do given what you are saying.

[LlamaFluff]

I probably won't be going after Spyrex right now. He is acting too..don't know the best word for it, but his behavior just strikes me as something a scum would NOT do.

Vote: Spyrex

A promise is a promise.

What changed? This is the second time you have gone back on what you said a few posts earlier.

[LlamaFluff]

That is also the second (or more?) time you have posted my inconsistency. Are you like..trying to forshadow a case on me later or something?

Well... yes. Once already you went from town (SC) is scum, to the person presenting the case (Spyrex) is scum, back to SC is scum in time to get him lynched. Now you are back at Spyrex is scum right after you said Spyrex is town. This is just a thought pattern that I am having a hard time understanding, and it seems like you just bounce between high level suspects in order to get all of them lynched.

Now that you also are saying Thad who is presenting a case on Spyrex is scummy, it just seems like having Spyrex lynched is going to be deja vu of having SC lynched.

[LlamaFluff]

Well, when you think someone is scummy, and they flip town, with that happening twice, the person leading those wagons looks pretty scummy. Chances are, they are scum.

ORLY?

I guess. I'm not really good at math.

So this makes K7 confirmed town to you since he isnt pushing cases?

[LlamaFluff]

I don't like how Spyrex basically told us to lynch him yesterday if SC flipped town - SC did. Now he is even willing to hammer himself.

Spyrex, if you are town, DON'T HAMMER YOURSELF! Your posts are part of the reason I keep flip-flopping, because I am seriously confused. If you are town, convince me WHY! I doubt TheAd is going to change his mind. I think he is scummy too. Why don't you make a case against him, instead of telling us you are going to hammer, and to lynch him tomorrow. If you're town, help us out!

I am not sure if we crossposted but I dont think this constitutes as an answer to my question if we didnt.

[LlamaFluff]

First off- no, K7 is scummy. I don't know why he would be just because he's doing the opposite of Spyrex. So does that make you and Spyrex confirmed town because both of you have been providing cases? It's just the fact that he's led the past two wagons, and the one before, he hammered. Pushing cases isn't scummy if they are genuine, but just because you push cases, doesn't make you town. When the results of those three are town, then it looks pretty bad for that person. Killa is scummy for completely unrelated reasons than Spyrex. It's ridiculous to compare Spyrex and killa. Both are scummy for opposite reasons. Pushing cases =/= scum. I never said it does. The results of those, mixed with the fact that Spyrex is acting suspicious is..well, scummy.

So what makes someone town then? You say people who push mislynches are scum, you say people who dont push cases are scum. Given that no scum have been lynched, that makes everyone scum using your logic.

[LlamaFluff]

You make it sound so black and white.

Well you are calling people who lead on a town lynch scum, and you are calling people who follow scum. I may be making it black or white but when you are calling people on each end of the spectrum of scumhunting scum, it makes it seem like everyone is scum to you.

[LlamaFluff]

Hence why I've said OVER AND OVER that K7 is about the absolute worst call for tomorrow.

It should be me. OR, if you guys are going to TRUST me, ThAdmiral.

However, you have no reason to trust me so I dont mind exploding for it.

I never have seen anything really overly scummy from Thad, and part of your case on him does seem to be some OMGUS. If you are attempting to use the "setting up lynches" argument of he knew that SC was town, that really can be used against almost anyone. The voters of you can be said that they were there to ensure a future lynch of you, the voters of SC can be called being there to ensure that the lynch occured.

I dont see myself voting Thad (or you) today since he is in my 50/50 area right now. There are people I would vote him (and again you) over of course, but at the same time I would much much rather see manito and OP hang before he does.

[LlamaFluff]

Well, in the meantime, lets get a hangin' someone. I dont think K7 is gonna fly and I eally doubt TSPN was an option. The rest of us can pull it together.

I doubt we will get a lynch without K7/TSN getting replaced. Right now netlava/Thad seem intent on getting a Spyrex lynch, which I know for one I am not going to support, which basically means one more rejector of that wagon means that Spyrex wont get lynched.

So we basically are at 7 players with 5 to lynch, so it needs to be unanimous-1 (assuming no selfvotes). I think we are at a standstill untill we get some replacements, although we can still freely argue.

That said, I still want manito lynched. All he has done this day is take a quote of mine entirely out of context in an attempt to again connect me to K7 and get me lynched.

[LlamaFluff]

I have had K7 as a possible partner for manito for a while given how much that manito seems to refrence the switch from K7 to Corin scummy, and how the actions of K7 are being used as fodder for my case for some reason. It seems like manito has been expecting K7 to flip scum this whole time, but has attempted to get players like me and FL lynched instead.

I am definantly not going to hammer yet, I dont like how fast this has come up and need to look back at the reasoning behind this move, and the connections of the recent hoppers to K7. Plus not even everyone has checked in yet, so there is no way I am sending this game to night with multiple people not even getting to give any input on this sudden switch.

I had been moving to a manito-K7-OP trio with my thoughts recently, but the move by OP is not something that I would of expected with that pairing. I need to spend some time reevaluating my trios and trying to figure out what is going on.

[LlamaFluff]

I like an OP lynch.

At first impressions I like it more then a K7 lynch. The fact that he still is basically calling for a Spyrex lynch while pushing a K7 lynch makes me uneasy, especially since I consider Spyrex a mislynch at this point. Still like the manito lynch more then either of them though.

[LlamaFluff]

I wouldn't mind the lynch of k7, Spyrex, or The Ad. I think either The Ad or Spyrex is scum. I'd be willing to switch over, if that's what the town decided, but I am content with my killa vote.

Lets pretend you are a day vig. Who do you kill? It just seems at this point that you are just content with killing whoever you can. Early in the day it was me being scum, no one is following that logic so now its the three players being discussed. I think that manito is the only case you have rejected this day.

When you look at the past actions of you and that you have basically just coattailed every case that has been made while adding little if any input apart from "I agree" and a vote, I just go back to the conculsion that you are scum, probably with manito. While I would prefer to still lynch manito since it would probably help with reads on everyone since he has been more singleminded then you who has gone all over the place for this game, you are my second choice for a lynch today.

I would love to see an actual case from you in the future, backed with reasoning and some solid stances instead of the willingness to lynch whoever has been recently pushed by other players.

BOOM TISH

ThAdmiral - 2 (armlx, orangepenguin)
killa seven - 1 (Netlava)
SpyreX - 1 (ThAdmiral)
Manito - 1 (LlamaFluff)

Not voting - killa seven, TheSweatpantsNinja, Manito, SpyreX

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

-Mod

[LlamaFluff]

I am bumping this.

Manito has responded to it already but I really dont want to get into another big post war unless that is what everyone really wants from me. I am content with a "here is my evidence, here is his response, you decide" situation

The “Manito is scum lets lynch him” post

I will try to be making this as concise as possible so it doesn’t turn into some monster post that eats up pages upon pages in word, but there is quite a bit to cover here.

1 - The Day 1.5 wagon in relation to K7

Now, the final vote count for day 1.5 left Corin at a deadline lynch over k7 by one vote. During this scramble between the two players where votes got shuffled around quite a bit, manito kept his vote on FL. During the list activity I put out during D1.5 though we find that manitos LoS was FL, Joubert, K7. This is where things get weird. During the last part of that day, manito was presented with two options, vote for his third suspect on his LoS and stop someone who he sure appeared to have a town read (and now is arguing for his life that he did) to get lynched. Or he could of kept his vote on FL and let someone that he had a town read on get killed without making any strong attempts to prevent this from happening. Manito played the end of the day to the extent where he allowed a perceived town player get lynched and let a player he had, and since has vehemently, called scum. This is not a town action.

1.1 – Use of Day 1.5 wagon in cases

Since the lynch of Corin, at most possible opportunities, we have seen manito throw out the fact that people voted for Corin over K7 as a scumtell. This means that manito thinks that K7 is scum, how else could this be considered a scumtell? This relates back to the D1.5 lynch. He is now getting on people for protecting the player he JUST had the opportunity to get lynched. This is just further evidence that there was an intentional avoidance of the entire D1.5 lynching scene by manito.

1.2 – Stance on k7

There has been some flip-flops on k7 being scum or not as well. In manitos 47 there are beyond obvious implications that he has a read of scum on k7. How else does he have “defended k7” as a scumtell? When I challenged him on these points, he quickly dropped k7 to town though, due to the point that he had been not posting in his 51. When we return to his 56 though, and the small debate of “why didn’t you vote K7 D1.5?” had blown over, he goes back to putting K7 back on his LoS. This is attributed to lurking, which is the same reason that he had K7 drop off his list in 51.

2 – Avoidance of Wagons

Manito has done a good job so far at calling nearly every mislynch as it happens. D1.5, he called Corin perfectly. D2.0 he called KoC with relative ease. Most other people were “fooled” by at least one of these wagons. Not manito though, he just clung to his “FL is scum, not voting anyone else” statements. The two instances where he did break from this pattern and vote on a lynching wagon were fl and FS, which both have been used to his advantage. fls lynch quickly got turned against FL and has been used quite a bit to try and get that wagon to the lynching stage. If you look at the timing of votes and posts though there is an interesting pattern that occurred. Four posts after manito moved to a fl vote from an (interestingly enough) FoS on k7, he already set in on FL, this was still being done on day 1.0. In his 13, there is also a distinct move to get FL to vote for fl.

2.1 – Constant push of FL

Since quite argueablely his 11th post in the game, manito has expressed intrest in a lynch of FL. We all know he wants a lynch but at the same time he has not taken many great steps to assure that the lynch would take place. There are mentions of the case and some small debates which mainly are concentrated in early D1.5, but dried up since then. For all of D2.0 the most that manito does is add the Corin vote to why he wants FL lynched. Time wise he appears to spend more time defending KoC then attacking FL. We saw more of the same in 2.5, defending himself this time though. Its fairly clear that manito doesn’t seem to have a lynch of FL a high priority in this game. He mentions the name quite a bit but around this point in the game I have to hunt for any concrete reasoning for the lynch, you would think that something that has been pushed for the past five lynches would of first been easily identified and second actually pushed to completion at this point. Neither have occurred. I think this is just scum camping on a wagon so he doesn’t have to do any scumhunting, just point to FL and say “theres the scum”.

3.1 – The Llama is Bossy Case

A major part of why I seem to be suspected by manito right now is that he says that I am too bossy for him. I am being accused of voting people to make them listen to me, and forcing everyone to vote with me. This is not only an over exaggeration, since I believe the only players I have voted for are Corin, KoC, FS, manito, but also blatantly false. I do try and get my ideas out there, it helps to see the reactions of a large group of people. I do try and make people act, so it can be reviewed later. I don’t run around and try and get everyone who doesn’t listen to me scum. This “scumtell” of his is the equivalent of the “over defensive” tell. They both are very weak at best, and are commonly used to pad cases that need extra evidence to make them look desirable to other players.

3.2 – Guilt by Association Case

Manito always seems to have a hard time pushing my case without mentioning that k7 and FL (netlava) are scum. By doing this he is using an assumption of other players alignments to get my lynched. In the chain of posts where manito presents a case, there were 39 posts refrenced that he called me scum for. Out of those 39 posts, manito uses “k7 and FL are scum” based arguments in 18. Nearly half of everything that was presented against me are conditional of k7 and FL being scum. The fact that manito is trying to push the end of a chain (me) on the beginning of a chain (k7 and FL) is scummy. There is a natural order of proof and progression in this game, and manito is trying to throw it aside while at the same time using it for evidence.

[LlamaFluff]

Is anyone else confused with all the vote movement going on?

[LlamaFluff]

you know what would be [amazing] OP? Answering my 2075 (dear god we are over 2000 posts).

[LlamaFluff]

And yeah, olive didn't stand out as much as I thought it was. Argh.

The day vig question basically is an "if you could get anyone lynched who would it be?" question, just more... dramatically. They do exist and I have seen one before but that is besides the point.

So if you could kill anyone, without having to convince anyone of it, who would it be? You mention K7, Thad, Spyrex and TSN.

[LlamaFluff]

Killa seven.

But you just voted TSN... and K7 has more votes against him I think

[LlamaFluff]

God, I must look ridiculous from your guys' perspective.

Werent the people who followed the same ones you were voting with which again were the same ones you suspect? I am just trying to get a read on you. With you rejecting just amlx and manito as lynches while having already had four(?) votes out today its pretty hard to get a solid read on what you are trying to do.

[LlamaFluff]

You would say that because you are also scum.

This seems like a case of you just spewing suspects without backing.

I notice a net total of 0 cases on anyone from you.

Have to agree with this. I think netlava has built most/all of the spyrex case, while you just created the "you are wrong you die" situation.

I still think the right lynch today is manito who seems to of disappeared again and stopped giving ideas about who is scum (even though there wasnt much to start), or OP who cant make up his mind about who to suspect for more then a 24 hour period. I would be willing to back either of these lynches.

[LlamaFluff]

Whatever, I thought it was strange, but I will

unvote,

vote:spyrex

. I don't plan on changing it anymore, since I have done that enough for today.

Wait... seriously?

What happened to K7, Thad, TSN or me?

This votehopping is confusing

[LlamaFluff]

OK, first please stop saying stuff like this

Today is my confirmation or my death

This mindset that keeps coming up is the only thing that stops me at putting you at practically confirmed town.

Apparently people again arent going to listen to me about manito, I really dont think anyone is even commenting on my case which is driving me up the wall inside. It seems like no matter how I state it, nothing comes from it.

I already have talked about how OP has gone all over today, every time I think that I figured out who he suspects and what he is planning to do, there is suddenly a new vote from him. Given that he seems ready to lynch at least four players, likely five, I am ready to put him at L-1.

unvote
vote OP

@manito - I didnt think an event that happened four weeks ago would still be in effect today, sorry. You still havent really given any ideas though apart from this vote on OP, this late in the game with two players already getting replaced, I dont want three players having no ties to D3.5

LUCKY THERE'S A FAMILY GUY

orangepenguin - 4 (armlx, SpyreX, Manito, LlamaFluff)
SpyreX - 3 (ThAdmiral, orangepenguin, Netlava)

Not voting - killa seven, TheSweatpantsNinja

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

-Mod

[LlamaFluff]

My point is look at your actions today. You have voted for K7, Thad, Spyrex and TSN. You have called me scum. It seems the only people you are sure that are town are manito and armlx.

That means you have five people it seems that you are considering to be scum, when there are only nine players left, and a guarenteed three scum, I dont get how you can even start to consider a suspect base that broad a good move. You pick a suspect and push their lynch. Instead you have been drifting with the flavor of the minute. You pushed Spyrex, and then pushed Thad, then are back at Spyrex. This is the most perplexing push to me.

I see no logic that makes you turn around and say "hey, the person I am listening to is scum" not once, but twice. This is essentially what you are doing given that Spyrex and Thad seem to be the main two forces that want eachother lynched. Given that both of these wagons have been backed, and you now are falling back on the one that has more votes and the player is attacking you, it seals my vote.

[LlamaFluff]

You pick a suspect and push their lynch.

Even if you think you might be wrong?

How often have you called every other player but one (manito thanks to that last post) scum in a F9? On top of that voted four of them?

I can see changing your mind but when everyone is scum that just seems like a want to just get a lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

You pick a suspect and push their lynch.

Even if you think you might be wrong?

How often have you called every other player but one (manito thanks to that last post) scum in a F9? On top of that voted four of them?

I can see changing your mind but when everyone is scum that just seems like a want to just get a lynch.

I think you're getting me and op confused.

You might just be misinterpreting what I am saying. OP has done what I said, and you seem to be thinking its what I am accusing you of. He would have to of "thought he was wrong" four or five times today to be where he is.

HOW AMUSING

orangepenguin - 4 (armlx, SpyreX, Manito, LlamaFluff)
SpyreX - 3 (ThAdmiral, orangepenguin, Netlava)

Not voting - killa seven, TheSweatpantsNinja

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

-Mod

[LlamaFluff]

Could we swing a ThAd lynch? or a me lynch?

Given that I wont be a part of them, im going to say no.

[LlamaFluff]

Why not ThAd?

I dont see him as all that scummy compared to other people. I just think part of why you think he is scummy is OMGUS.

[LlamaFluff]

Sooooo....

Are we just waiting on a decision re:TSPN and K7.

Yep, im not switching, I dont think OP will self-hammer, or any of the Spyrex voters move.

mod

if you modkill TSN and K7 does votecount reset?

[LlamaFluff]

we could just allow K7 to rejoin... that would solve half the problem

[LlamaFluff]

I could see the scum wanting to keep killa alive. I guess nobody cares about TSN, who is a lot less scummier than killa?

Nice twisting my actions. K7 is getting replaced because he wasnt active enough, he still is on the site though. TSN is getting replaced because he fell off the site entirely.

I would rather finish this game with no modkills, and having K7 back is the best odds on way to accomplish that.

[LlamaFluff]

Ohh I'm fine with both.

[LlamaFluff]

ummm... no voting yet, thats a bad idea

I still am leaning to a manito lynch right now, really didnt like the way he just vanished all of the last day while managing to get on the OP wagon first.

I need to

reread

skim the game at least though first.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote, vote spyrex

good game all