Open 93 - Near Vanilla: Game Over, Mafia Win!

[ZazieR]

I get to do the first random vote .

Vote: Darox

I didn't like your opening in our other game

[ZazieR]

You could better respond soon as Darox is targeting you. And there are ppl here who knows what that means. Darox is Doktor P a part of your investigation?

[ZazieR]

Which part? At least you should know what I meant with the second sentence, as you've done it before, only you were the target.
As for Doktor P, he's sharing the same thoughts as you about MafiaSSK. That's why I was asking if he was helping you to get the results you want.

[ZazieR]

I'm not a native English speaker. Can you explain what you asked Doktor P?

[ZazieR]

You know he's scum? How?

[ZazieR]

You check ppl wiki and from that you decide they are scum. Great playstyle, Darox. Now I can understand your vote... (major rolling eyes)
Doktor P anything you want to add to this?

[ZazieR]

I really don't see why everyone is voting SSK. Perhaps he lurks, perhaps he says that he's scum because the game is moving slow, however I have never played with him before and that's why I give him a chance.
Besides Darox, if he's lynched we'll go into night which gives the scum a chance of NK our best player. Do you really want to sacrifice SSK for that?

[ZazieR]

Why are you asking? It has been just a few pages now. Besides it's an 'if' situation. SSK isn't lynched yet. However when he's lynched, because he's lurking then we lose a better player as well due to the scum. It's better to have a lurker in the game then to lose two ppl.

[ZazieR]

Sorry Darox for thinking about other players. I don't see the point why to vote a lurker. If you don't want him to lurk you give him pressure votes or you ask questions to him. Lynching him will only help if he's scum.
Let's go back to the situation where SSK is the lurker townie. Do you really want to lynch him for lurking and sacrifice at the same town a pro-town player?

You should only lynch the players that you see as scum, not unhelpful but possible pro-town players. I hope you can see now, why I wrote that post where you FoS'ed me for.

[ZazieR]

Also, I'm not a big fan of this post:

Sorry Darox for thinking about other players. I don't see the point why to vote a lurker. If you don't want him to lurk you give him pressure votes or you ask questions to him. Lynching him will only help if he's scum.
Let's go back to the situation where SSK is the lurker townie. Do you really want to lynch him for lurking and sacrifice at the same town a pro-town player?

You should only lynch the players that you see as scum, not unhelpful but possible pro-town players. I hope you can see now, why I wrote that post where you FoS'ed me for.

Mainly because it presupposes that MafiaSSK is pro-town. And because there are too many hypotheticals involved. There really shouldn't be any reason for ZazieR to defend SSK. Unless it was out of the goodness of Zazie's heart. But no-one is truly virtuous enough to defend SSK.

First of all, SSK was at L-2 at a sudden point. Most of them were based upon him lurking in games. However, we have no clue at this point who could be town and who could be scum. Like I said in my quote, you should only lynch those who appear scummy to you. If you vote him, then I want solid reasons for it. Lurking, is not one of them to me. You can always ask questions to him to get him into this game.

SpamWise, what do you think of SSK based upon what he has said in this game?

[ZazieR]

This is a really stupid wago. I can't drag out many scumtells from posts nor do I have the ability to lengthen short little paragraphs. So instead, I post little and scumhunt usually by PBPAing.

MafiaSSK, as said in this quote, you scumhunt though PBPAing. I was wondering what your thoughts were about the reasons the voters against you have given and if you agree with the voters who vote against Retro?

Darox, why is/was Sineish the most scummiest player out of the SSK bandwagon to you? Can you give the quotes which responses you don't like from geckoj and why?

Every voter of the SSK wagon, why did you vote SSK? K7 is also known as a lurker. But all of you choose SSK. Explanation please.

[ZazieR]

thegeckoj, you're talking strange here.
First of all when I saw your reason for voting SSK, I thought that it was a random/pressure vote to let him talk more.

unvote, vote: MafiaSSK

i have meta him and i dont like the looks of his page, admitted lurker playstyle is unhelpful at best, scummy at worst.

plus he doesnt even have our game on his list, makes me suspicious of him

.

plus his only two posts are one confirming(sorta) and one incourging people to meta him, which seems weird to me.

The bolded part gave me the impression that it was a random vote. How does not having a game on his wiki page make him suspicious? I want to know what your exact reason is for voting SSK. I've read somewhere that you voted him, because he was lurking in this game (why him and not someone else?) and based upon his play style. SSK also asked you why it was weird, but you never gave that answer. Can you give it?

B/c retro's meta implies this is the norm for him.

i still dont understand the vote for me.

i voted for MafiaSSK because he was lurking and because i dont like the way he tend to play games. plus he hadnt updated his current games list which lead me to believe he was conflicted about his role and didnt know how to put it down.

just because other people had voted him earlier doesnt make me scum just means people are on the same page.

i never voted retro or said anything about his meta, so i dont understand why that makes any difference.

in the few games i have played people who get a band wagon on them early then drop out tend to be scum, if they werent they usually fight a bit harder.

i still believe strongly for MafiaSSK to be scum. this is my reason not his namesake. right now i am not entirely sure who is on the 'wagon' for MafiaSSK as we havent had a vote count in awhile.

frankly i find Darox's vote of myself to opportune and see his trying to start a bandwagon on me, his '2nd choice.'
Darox:

are you just going for your 2nd choice as opposed to your first because i am seem to be an easier target and you just want a quick lynch to end day one?

this is really scummy if you ask me, but i still feel more strongly about MafiaSSK and his abandonment of the game just when the screws were getting turned to him.

Here you can see in the bolded part, you're reasons for voting him. These were lurking, his playing style and the fact that he hadn't updated his current games list. Only there have been others lurking as well, the fact that he didn't update his games list is for me not a scum tell and you've never played with him before. All your reasons for voting him are very weak. Tell me why he deserved your vote with reasons that I can see as good reasons. Until you do I'll

Vote: thegeckoj

Next you also say that some others have the same thoughts about SSK as they also voted SSK. Let's ask them all why they voted SSK. Everyone who voted SSK, please state the reasons for doing so.

This is as far as I know your third game in which you play. From two other experiences you state the part in italics. I don't know how this is called in English, but in my country this is known as a bad argument. From one or maybe two games, you're concluding something, while there are more games played besides those two in which you perhaps saw this.

Then we have the underlined part. In it you ask Darox something and then without he has given the answer to your question, you attack him. You believed he voted you as opportunism, but in his answer you could see this wasn't the case. But in the underlined part, you attack him, without waiting for his answer, stating already that he attacked you as he sees you as an 'easy' target according to you. I don't like this part at all.

Then in your last post you do the same. You state something, don't wait for an answer, and start stating something comepletly wrong according to Doctor P.

Short said, wrong reasons for voting and bad attacks. You're doing wrong things.

[ZazieR]

In your post you said, that your original vote was based upon lurking and had a vote against him. If that was your original vote, then what about now?
I can understand why he told us to meta him, however I'll let him answer first.

Geckoj, in one of SSK's post he explains his method of scumhunting. What do you think of that approach?

Explain the reasons of voting again and why these reasons are scummy.

You're concluding something from your own games that you've played. However, there are other games as well on this site, including scum with different methods. Do you think that your games can predict how scum will behave in this game?
What did you mean with 'scum went quite once they felt defeated and resigned to their fate.' and what has it to do with this game?

You got my point from the Darox part. You BELIEVED that that was what he was trying to do. You made a question to Darox, but without waiting you decided that it was his attention to get an 'easier target'. That's wrong. Besides, he only said that he wanted to start a bandwagon. Did he give his reasons for starting it? The correct answer is yes, he did:

Sineish is the person I found most suspicious out of the SSK wagon, but you are giving an interesting response to the votes upon you, and you were the person I found most suspicious after Sineish. Of course I want a bandwagon to start on you.

Explain how he is admitting here that he's starting a bandwagon on you as you're an 'easier target'.

You're starting to talk about a doctor P/SSk scumpair, without waiting for Doctor P's explanation.

To me, you're the guy with his hand in the cookie jar. You saw SSK's bandwagon, thought to enjoy it, but you got stuck.

[ZazieR]

Did I forgot to unvote? Sorry about that mistake.

unvote Vote:thegeckoj

[ZazieR]

I also don't see the point of roleclaiming, however it could be interesting later on.
If he lies, it's just a matter of time before he's found out.

Besides, claiming starts most of the time discussion which is good for town.

Thegeckoj, you've heard it. Claim in your next post. This is an order from armlx.

[ZazieR]

I'll post more when my internet problem is fixed. Sorry for the trouble.

[ZazieR]

afatchic, Darox has just an interesting playstyle. You're asking him why he votes his number two suspect. Then I suggest that you look at the posts of his number one and two. At this moment Geckoj is more suspicious to me than Sineish.

Also, you're saying that there are players suspicious as well. Can you name them all including the reasons why? Besides, if you see others suspicious make a case against them.

Also can you explain what you mean with 'however if you give him time and let him screw up again' post 226?

[ZazieR]

As SpamWise said at my post: 'there are too many hypotheticals involved. There really shouldn't be any reason for afatchic to defend Geckoj. Unless it was out of the goodness of afatchic's heart. But no-one is truly virtuous enough to defend Geckoj.' This was one of his few posts except the playernames were different.
However, if you're story is correct, he could prevent us from a mislynch. Short said, claim!

Also, where are your cases I asked about at my previous post?

[ZazieR]

It's never bad to repeat them, right?
Which question?

[ZazieR]

Easy to say, see posts 135 and 142

[ZazieR]

First of all, he includes WIFOM which is his main reason for unvoting. I've seen some games now and scum uses different approaches, so WIFOM is really bad to use.

Also, I don't like sentence 2. First of all the part of 'someone else will agree'. It seems like he wants Geckoj lynched, but wants someone else to do it. Second, would be that he will jump right back on. This could be seen as opportunism.

Not sure if this is what you wanted to hear armlx from afatchic's post 274, but these are the things that seem weird to me.

[ZazieR]

I can agree with A), but where did you see the part of the L-1?

[ZazieR]

Then tell me if there is a player who has more scum tells at this moment than Geckoj, afatchic.

[ZazieR]

Is that what you conclude from my last post? I only said that he has the most scum tells right now. But this is my opinion. If there are more players with the same opinion as Doktor P then they should speak right now.

Besides, you're the one who says that there are others scummy as well. If someone should know about other players with scum tells it should be you. That's my real reason for asking you. Also, armlx once posted this:

Also, if you going to say "Other people here might be scummier, so don't lynch him", put out a case on one of said other people.

You gave a comment about it, that we should also catch the other two scum. Only your discussion about don't lynch yet is distracting to me. We've filled almost three pages with it and it's not helpful at all. If you want us to focus on some others as well, start a case and I'll look into it.

Also that last question is weird. I don't like your threat of hammering or that someone else will hammer. Therefor I'll

unvote

although I still see Geckoj as scummiest and I'll

vote afatchic

[ZazieR]

Now I get what you mean armlx.

[ZazieR]

I already said what I meant with it. I only said that he has the most scum tells right now. That's why I asked if you saw someone with more scum tells. You say the whole time that we have to look into the others as well. Show us who according to you deserves our attention.

I think that the last two paragraphs aren't aimed at me, but it would be nice if you could show this by putting the name of who it's aimed at.

[ZazieR]

Look back at the old posts and say again that I'm not scumhunting. I at least post cases, instead of you who only say that we have to look at others as well. Tell me again that I'm lazy, when you compare you're scumhunting with mine.

[ZazieR]

Actually, there are four players actually talking most of the time if you don't count the sarcastic comment of someone else.
That's probably the most difficult part. Nobody is entering this discussion.

[ZazieR]

I can see what armlx is saying here.
But afatchic, do you see Geckoj as scum or not?

[ZazieR]

Then explain me why you call him scum in the next quotes:

armlx wrote:
You asked how you are trying to derail his wagon earlier? See your last 2 posts.


im not stopping his wagon by any means. as far as i can tell he is still at L-2. if your case is good enough then it shouldn't matter if i talk about something other than gecko for a little while. and in my last two posts i am saying pay attention to other people, it feels as if you are not paying attention to them. just in case you didn't know, you probably caught one scum, but there are still two more.

armlx wrote:
Uhh... wanting to stall his lynch and saying look at other people is the same as defending him.....

nope just trying to correct yall, don't need to play with tunnel vision. and yeah i said look at other people because there are still two other scum.

armlx wrote:
Quote:

nope just trying to correct yall, don't need to play with tunnel vision. and yeah i said look at other people because there are still two other scum.



Except both of those are things that do the same thing as protecting him does.....


fine i was protecting him by trying to find other scum... is that better for ya

Offtopic. Stupid error

[ZazieR]

Afatchic, ever heard of 'reading posts'. I know it's hard, but I explained already why I voted you. To make it easier for you, a quick summary.

-The 'Don't look at him. He has scummy posts, but there are players which have been quiet who deserve our attention as well.' posts.

-In one of your last posts, you say that you're not going to say he's scum, which you did say in other posts.

-Post 274, of which I gave comments about already.

New argument is post 363. Sineish has bolded a good part although he forgot a bit to bold:

afatchic [258] (bolding mine)(underlining mine) wrote:
geckoj- role claiming is a big help, for both sides. i.e.

if you have a power role and are about to be lynched, then its in the towns best interest for you to claim

so that we can try to find another candidate to lynch and not shoot ourselves in the foot by lynching a power role D1

. and yes there is a chance you may be NK'ed tonight if you claim, unless a doc saves you, if you don't claim then you get lynched in the day, either way you die so its best to claim in the day and help out the town.
...
i haven't liked any of the defense that you have provided or how you have acted once under pressure, im going to give you the chance to

role claim now.

UNVOTE Vote Thegeckoj

Now claim.

Why are you so sure, that when he had claimed a powerrole, that he actually was one and not a lying scum?

Besides, you're playing different as well.
I've two games in which I've been killed now. Look at them and the games that we are playing together. You'll see many differences in them as I'm trying to figure out which style fits me and could be the most useful.

[ZazieR]

Is it just me, or did you pick the wrong post? That was my post which asked a question to armlx. That wasn't the post aimed at post 274. This was my response to it:

First of all, he includes WIFOM which is his main reason for unvoting. I've seen some games now and scum uses different approaches, so WIFOM is really bad to use.

Also, I don't like sentence 2. First of all the part of 'someone else will agree'. It seems like he wants Geckoj lynched, but wants someone else to do it. Second, would be that he will jump right back on. This could be seen as opportunism.

This was later added by armlx:

That's part of it. The other part is that he's saying he is A) giving gecko a free pass on his earlier actions, as he's "bound to make another slip", and B) saying

he will hammer only when Gecko is at L-1

, aka primo bus time as a lynch is pretty much assured.

These are the comments about that post of yours. The quote you took from me was aimed at this part as you can see in the bolded part.

Also you are confusing me now. At post 368 you said that Geckoj would probably have lied if he had claimed a powerrole, but in my quote of post 366, you said that you would believe him. What did you really mean?

You haven't explained something yet. Look at the first sentence of post 357.

[ZazieR]

Afatchic, really. Learn to read the posts more carefully.

I asked if he could explain himself what he meant and how he came up with the L-1 part, because I couldn't find it. And no, it wasn't based upon what armlx said about it. One of the reasons however was your threat of hammering. But not what armlx said.

And I already showed where you said that you would believe him. Look at the quote of post 366. I have underlined the part where you said it.

Besides, this is the third time I ask the next question. Why do you call him scum (see the quotes of post 357), while you don't see him as scum (as you said in post 356)?

Geckoj, that is indeed a scummy post.

[ZazieR]

What you said was this:
i.e. if you have a power role and are about to be lynched, then its in the towns best interest for you to claim

so that we can try to find another candidate to lynch and not shoot ourselves in the foot by lynching a power role D1.

I'm giving a comment the whole time about the part, which I've underlined this time as well. You're saying here that if he claims a powerrole that you would want to lynch someone else. Meaning that you'd believe him with his claim. And I'm asking why would you believe him?

For your next part of your last post, we'll look what was said at that moment.
It started with you saying this:

its wifom, but im still going on my gut feeling. if he is scum, then either someone else will agree or he will screw up again and i will jump right back on the bandwagon, but right now im not sure enough to be comfortable with a lynch.

armlx asked to everybody except Darox, what was scummy about that. This was my answer.

First of all, he includes WIFOM which is his main reason for unvoting. I've seen some games now and scum uses different approaches, so WIFOM is really bad to use.

Also, I don't like sentence 2. First of all the part of 'someone else will agree'. It seems like he wants Geckoj lynched, but wants someone else to do it. Second, would be that he will jump right back on. This could be seen as opportunism.

Not sure if this is what you wanted to hear armlx from afatchic's post 274, but these are the things that seem weird to me.

Followed by armlx.

That's part of it. The other part is that he's saying he is A) giving gecko a free pass on his earlier actions, as he's "bound to make another slip", and B) saying he will hammer only when Gecko is at L-1, aka primo bus time as a lynch is pretty much assured.

I said afterwards that I agree with A, but that I couldn't see B. This was because I couldn't see where you said that you would jump back on at L-1.
Then you ask a weird question (if you should lynch him). That together with your and armlx discussion, gave me some bad vibes from you and I decided to look into your posts. From that I made a case and I voted you. After that came armlx explanation and I could see what he meant with it.
You could just vote after someone else voted saying that he seems scummy in your eyes. Because that's already what you said in some posts before it.

But now that I have your attention, explain the quotes of post 357 where you call him scum, while you said that you don't see him as scum. (fourth time)

[ZazieR]

I'd post more if I wouldn't have much fun with animorpherv1 .

Why did you start about that question? I didn't talk about that one in my posts.

You know that we have a doc and a JK, right?

You still haven't explained the scum thing.

[ZazieR]

OK, participation from everyone requested.
Who do you see as scum right now and why?

[ZazieR]

I never saw that post from afatchic. Or I read it, but didn't respond to it. Whoops.

im not stopping his wagon by any means. as far as i can tell he is still at L-2. if your case is good enough then it shouldn't matter if i talk about something other than gecko for a little while. and in my last two posts i am saying pay attention to other people, it feels as if you are not paying attention to them. just in case you didn't know,

you probably caught one scum,

but there are still two more.

The bolded part says that you actually see him as scum.

In response to the quote of yours in post 425:
Why do you see Geckoj as town (if you you see him as town)?
Why do you want to know if you'll get lynched when Geckoj turns up town?

[ZazieR]

That's an interesting statement Geckoj. Want to explain why you think so?

[ZazieR]

Geckoj, if you want to be hammered, then you can better ask to be replaced. If you're really a townie, then this would be better.

But that would mean the third player who's gonna be replaced.

[ZazieR]

So it never happened in one of your games that the replacer of the player with the most votes on him with deadline approaching actually made a change and someone else was lynched instead? This question is aimed at armlx.

[ZazieR]

As long as we get something useful, it doesn't matter to me.

[ZazieR]

I will hold back the mishammer

Oops?

Indeed, Retro what did you just say?

[ZazieR]

I agree with Kuribo's last post.

Doktor P, now that you're changing your play style, can you give your serious thoughts about Geckoj and afatchic?

[ZazieR]

I agree with Sineish. K7 you could speak with your vote.

Kuribo, who would you chose to vote of Geckoj and afatchic?
Retro, same question for you.

[ZazieR]

Geckoj, perhaps instead of complaining you could help to find some scum. What do you think of the things that happened in the last days? Starting with the first of October as you started then wih saying that you are town and that SSK is scum. That's the only thing you say after the first of October.