Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)

[WaltWishbone]

Vote: crazy

Old habits and such.

[WaltWishbone]

Sorry, I've been a little busy the last few days, prod received. I don't have a lot to add at this point. The two biggest topics of conversation have been the scumtell and a mass claim, neither of which have implicated anyone enough to lynch thus far in my opinion. I am going to read some more now and come back with more thoughts later. Removing my random vote.

Unvote

[WaltWishbone]

My lover needs to shave by the way and I don't mean his legs or armpits!

[WaltWishbone]

This is a really curious discussion, I have some intial thoughts after a re-read. I'm not ready to jump on a crazy bandwagon, although I do find him suspect.

FOS: crazy

He could be reacting this way because he has been dropped in a hole and is digging himself deeper trying to get out. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt for now and not voting. In the following post he really seems to be looking out for the best interest of the town, unless he realized or was told by a scum partner that a mass claim was bad for scum and is backtracking? He seems to really think he was onto something.

Charter just missed all my points, but oh well, because I just saw what Adel said:

because it would invalidate the secret scumtell I have that I won't announce until we have three days on the books without a lover-pair massclaim.

I believe I know what she's talking about. I don't believe that claiming would completely invalidate it, but it certainly wouldn't help...

I hope the other townies in this game will pick up on what he's saying and not reveal this secret scumtell.

(If any of you inquire about this, I will assume you are scum.)

As it turns out, he and Adel were not talking about the same scumtell and his explanation for what he was thinking does make sense. However, Sleepy Panda makes some really good points in this post.

This scumtell discussion is just silly. Does knowing the scumtell make you less scummy? I don't know what it is, does that mean I'm scum? We have two people arguing that they know what the scumtell is and that the other is pretending to know, but they can't say it or it ruins it, so they can't prove if they know it or not. You're not getting anywhere.

Iceman, why are you talking about role PMs and saying that unless Crazy got a special message, he doesn't know what the scumtell is? There's no other way for Crazy to know what the scumtell is?

Crazy, how are you so sure that Adel is town? There are two scum factions. It's not possible for her to be in one and try to eliminate the other? How do you go from pushing for massclaim, then when Adel mentions the words "secret scumtell", you immediately know what she's talking about and go along with her?

I agree with this for the most part, just beacuse Adel has a scum tell does not mean she is not the other alignment of scum and she should not earn a three day pass that quickly. It also begs the question, should we end the discussion of a mass claim so quickly?

Actuall the last game I played with the lovers game the mass claimed worked because you started seeing pair and how they voted and I was scum in that game. The only reason the town won was because they saw the voting system and the other people who were scum were being very flaky in the game.

vote: DarlaBlueEyes

Adel's response to this was that it was a much shorter game. So I have a few questions? We have all agreed it is in the best interest of the town not to discuss or hint at what the scumtell is. Can anyone verify that they know what she is talking about without giving it away or hinting at it? Adel, will it really have that big an impact on the game? Are you sure the scumtell will help the town more than a massclaim will?

Those are my thoughts so far. I am going to read the thread again, as there has been a lot posted and I was not able to keep up the first few days.

[WaltWishbone]

This game is moving really fast. This is a really detailed post Adel, I wasn't sure what you meant either, but now this makes sense.

this is where Crazy revealed his tell

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

before that additional PMs were never mentioned in the games, except for:

Additionally,

crazy, unless you received some kind of special message after your role PM, the generic townie PM is available for all to see on the first page of this thread. It's the PM is received, so unless you got something extra, you're full of crap.

Please vote and eliminate crazy-scum, it's clear now he's full of shite.

we all got a second PM after our role PM, with the link to the daytalking forum, and that PM is not posted on the first page.

but it gets better,

He never said anything about it being in a PM about a secret scum tell.

Where are you getting this from? Voting patterns wasn't the only thing that is a secret scum tell in this game.

There is a second part.

The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

as scum, icemanE knew this game was an open game with the townie role PM posted on the first page. He held on to this belief, but gave himself the out of "unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't" in case Crazy's scumtell was a minor variation between the role PM that was sent and what was posted. It didn't occur to him that there could be a second role PM. If he were a townie he would know that there was an entire message that townies recieved that was not posted on the first page.

as a control, take a look at Sleepy Panda post:

This scumtell discussion is just silly. Does knowing the scumtell make you less scummy? I don't know what it is, does that mean I'm scum? We have two people arguing that they know what the scumtell is and that the other is pretending to know, but they can't say it or it ruins it, so they can't prove if they know it or not. You're not getting anywhere.

Iceman, why are you talking about role PMs and saying that unless Crazy got a special message, he doesn't know what the scumtell is?

There's no other way for Crazy to know what the scumtell is?

Crazy, how are you so sure that Adel is town? There are two scum factions. It's not possible for her to be in one and try to eliminate the other? How do you go from pushing for massclaim, then when Adel mentions the words "secret scumtell", you immediately know what she's talking about and go along with her?

Panda noticed that icemanE placed particular emphasis on the "special message"

so, was icemanE aware of the second PM that gave the quicktopic link?

well, he doesn't make another post until 240 (after the daytalking PM to townies was revealed and talked about), at which point he posts:

PANDA, IT IS SOMETHING THAT ONLY TOWNIES WOULD KNOW!!! I can't say anything more without revealing what it is. Not all townies might catch it, but THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT SCUM WOULD KNOW WHAT IT IS.

This is straight BS. Townies are LESS informed than scum.

How could they possibly have info that scum does not?

If you want me to, I'll reveal what I believe the "secret tell" is - it's hardly a secret, it's something both scum and town could easily figure out if they thought about it for a minute, so knowing the tell does not prove either way that you're town or scum - that's the main problem I have with crazy's crazy bull. Like I have said many many times,

unless crazy recieved some sort of special information the rest of us missed, there's not a game-specific "secret tell"

. The one I'm thinking of could exist in any game of this type. Additionally, it's not an unbeatable, bulletproof tell - it's as valuable as any other, and just as breakable.

Crazy's defense of "keep me alive until at least day 3 so you can see my secret" is trash. Also, the fact that he unvoted me just a few short posts after he said:

I am about 90% sure Adel is town. I am about equally sure Iceman is scum.

is ridiculous.

I think it's worth losing farside (who from my evaluation hasn't done anything awesomely protown or horrifically scummy) to lynch Crazy, who is quite clearly scum.

so did he miss post 199 and all of the conversation about daytalknig and PM's on page 9?

the next post mentioning daytalking icemanE makes is

You thought I was scum for, in your words, "pretending to see a scumtell" which scum apparently had no way of knowing about,

despite the fact that it's equally plausible for both scum and town to think of revealing daytalk after a few days as a scumtell

(I assume you did this to make yourself appear incredibly protown and extend your value-life until at least day 3 (evidenced by your little plea a couple pages back (PWEEZ DON'T WYNCH ME!))). When you realized your scumtell wasn't what ADEL was talking about (who, for some odd reason or another, you've decided is the pillar of the town, proven somehow to be on the town's side without any real backing for that statement) you suddenly retracted all suspicions, only to cast them out again a short while later because you accuse me of "not reading" when I reference earlier posts.

icemanE is trying to run a distraction-based defense. He wants everyone to focus on the daytalking, and not on the number of PMs.

let us review:

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

this post is the real scum-trap.

Crazy didn't know that the scum also got a second pm!

... and icemanE was worried that something was amended to the version of the pm sent to townies. icemanE did not know there was a second PM sent out to townies with a quicktopic link.

for a while I thought that icemanE was testing Crazy, to see if Crazy would admit to recieving something in addition to his original PM, which would clear clear Crazy.

Between the "scumtell" and "mass claim" discussions, this has been really interesting. It seems that two groups of potential scum have formed. One around Crazy/Farside and another around Iceman and possibly Firestarter. I still have a really strong feeling that crazy is scum AND my post/fos was before he voted himself. I don't buy the excuse that believing the scumtell would work means he is town. However, at this point I think the strongest case has been made against Iceman. I don't have anything to add, I agree with what adel wrote.

VOTE: Iceman

[WaltWishbone]

Wolf, did you even read?

Do you even know what the scum-tell

was

?

I'm happy with my vote on Iceman, however for the replacemements and some players trying to catch up who are maybe reading too quick, Crazy can you explain your scumtell again and how you thought it would work. It might be easier in one post as oppossed to having it spread throught out several posts in repsonse to questions. How did you expect it to work? Why would a massclaim hurt it? Did you speak to farside about it in your DT thread before you made your post agreeing with Adel to drop the massclaim? etc...

[WaltWishbone]

I am even more happy with my vote now on Iceman knowing that firestarter is his Lover because he was third on my list of suspects. The main thing he did to make me suspect him was cast an erroneous vote, which Adel called him on. Both you and he admit it was to get suspicion off you and also admit was a poor choice. However, yet here you are again, casting a doubt on others to get the pressure off you. This is anti town and scummy.

Also, while I'm immensely impressed with the activity level thus far in this game, I'd like to hear more from:

Harvey Pew
Alabaska J
DarlaBlueEyes
neko2086
cerebus3
pacman281292
icemanE
WaltWishbone - (who, on a side note, quoted Adel's large case on me to justify his vote, which seems odd for (2) reasons - 1, simply referencing it would have worked just fine, thank you, and 2, he states that he has nothing to add, which, while not inherently scummy, is a very easy way to join a bandwagon and make it look, at a glance, as if you've thought a lot about it.)

since they haven't contributed anything of value over the past couple of pages.

It's important to remember that there are a lot of players in this game. We can't let people slide through the cracks.

It's also important to remember that Adel's case is flawed, and that I am town, and as such it follows that all votes should be removed from me promptly.

This is very weak and does not reflect the truth, there have been numerous times in this game and other games when it is best to quote an entire post. For instance Oppossedforce chose to quote the entire post in #549 among others in the game. Adel put a lot of thought into that post and every comment has merit and is relevant. This game is moving fast, it is good that it has been repeated so everyone is given the chance to review it. It was also very complete, I did have little to add to it. It is not joining a bandwagon. I was very careful not to join the crazy bandwagon. Although I still have an fos on him, I feel the stronger case is on you. I put a lot of thought into voting for him as is detailed in my posts#218 and #469, however chose not to vote at that time. I think you know all this, however here you are again trying to get suspicion somewhere else, anywhere else and that is anti town. I am keeping up with the thread, however so far I do not see a defense by either you, your lover or anyone else that compels me to unvote.

[WaltWishbone]

So, that was a good lynch. I have an idea of his potential partners. dybecks defense of iceman was suspect in my opinion.

kloud1516, welcome to the game. Have you had a chance to read through the daytalk of dybeck and his lover? Any indication why he tried to defend iceman/firestarter? Can you paraphrase a bit of that conversation and post?

fos: kloud1516

I agree that the vote for DBE by Adel was odd; I don't see why you didn't expect people to join the bandwagon on Iceman/Orangepenguin. You made an excellent, detailed post/case; which was cemented in my mind when Firestarter tried to start a new wagon. You almost did the same thing to her that he did; fortunately the case that was built against them was too strong to fall apart. Adel, do you still feel your scumtell is more valuable than a mass claim at this point?

Also, Crazy, can you summarize and explain again how you thought your scumtell had any chance of working? I have read your posts regarding it several times and I don't get how you thought it could work.

[WaltWishbone]

prod picked up, sorry. I am really busy this week, I'll catch up by Friday.

[WaltWishbone]

I am caught up from the last few days and I re-read the posts involving the four wagons (Fire, Crazy, OF, Ice) that formed on day one and looked for similarities in the votes throughout the course of the game. There are some interesting patterns that emerged, although I don't see anything which is overwhelmingly scummy at this point. I have some random thoughts and a few questions to address.

Adel, do you still feel your scumtell is more valuable than a mass claim at this point?

I'm currently of the opinion that we need wider participation in this game right now. I think we should massclaim.

I agree Adel, more participation from lurkers and people who have been busy will be helpful. (I willl not be nearly as busy next week) I would especially like to hear from Armix though, as he and pacman have contributed the least to the discussion thus far.

Neither Adel or Crazy's scumtells seemed feasible in my mind, however the subsequent discussion was very useful in lynching Fire-Penguin/Ice. Putting off the mass claim until today has not seemed to benefit or hurt the town. A few of the lover pairs have been obvious; however a couple are really surprising, imo.

Also, Crazy, can you summarize and explain again how you thought your scumtell had any chance of working? I have read your posts regarding it several times and I don't get how you thought it could work.

Okay, here it goes:

I didn't know that the daytalk thingies were on the front page. Thus, I didn't know that scum had daytalk, too. So I was planning on waiting for a while and then having everyone mass-post their daytalk. We lynch the people that have less believable daytalk.

I would not have thought that would work, even if we were allowed to do more than paraphrasing. It's too easy for lurkers and players who have not been very active in the thread to say they only have exchanged 2 or 3 posts in daytalk and create something believable.

The timing and manner of that whole exchange involving the scumtell and mass claim was really suspicous, a bit contrived. Farside wrote that a massclaim worked really well in her last game and it would benefit town. However Adel argued against it and forty five minutes later, you did a complete reversal Crazy. Based on very limited information, the four of you (crazy, Adel, pwnz, farside) all ended up taking the stance that a mass claim would not be as beneficial as the scumtells. Neither you or Adels scumtells were more valuable than the mass claim, imo.

I also looked for potential scum buddies for fire/ice during my re-read. dybeck was first, he seemed to try to derail both the firestarter wagon with an erroneous vote on SSF and the Iceman wagon by calling us a lazy town. However there seemed to be enough of a disparity between he and Iceman, as well as Alabaska voting (then removing his vote) to cast a shadow of a doubt in my mind.

@ Walt: Yes, I have had a chance to read over the daytalk of my lover and dybeck. I would gladly paraphrase the conversation in hopes of clarifying a few things for the group.

1) Mod explains the quicktopic is for daytalk
2) Lover greets dybeck
3) Lover asks if dybeck really feels that SSK is the best lynch for the day. Asks dybeck to give reasoning if he feels that SSK is the right choice
4) Dybeck claims that he isn't sure. Says that Fire/Ice could be scum, but didn't think the case presented was very convincing at that point. Feels like there should be pressure on more people.
5) Lover agrees that Fire/Ice/OP are the most scummy and best candidates for lynch.
6) I replace dybeck

I am not really sure what dybeck was getting at with the vote against SSK, and I feel that it will be necessary for me to go and read back over his posts when my head isn't throbbing, as I may be of more help to the town at tip-top shape. More to come a little later.

So it's interesting that dybeck and Alabaska both agree that Fire/Ice are the best candidates for the lynch in daytalk. So why did neither of them vote for them?

reading SSF's posts I can understand the suspicion. however, if we are basing it mostly on lurking, let's open our eyes a little:

Here a few of our lurkers:
Armix - I know, you are thinking, who? yeah, he has posted one time. he replaced someone who had posted 2 times.
DBE - Yes, adel brought attention to her by claiming she intentionally put ice at L-1. with a total of 10 posts to her name, I doubt she knew the votecount, and I really doubt voting her is going to encourage participation.
Harvey pew - 7 total posts. votes fire, then switches to crazy after pressure from ice... these look pretty scummy.
Walt - 8 posts... notice the self-congratulation after the lynch...

If we want to shine some light on these lurkers I'd like some answers from harvey pew expecially.

Well it was a good lynch. I'm not lurking, I have been really busy the last few weeks. As well, Myself and RR have had some pretty extensive discussions in daytalk, along with the amount of posts in the thread; this game is time consuming. I'll be able to keep up more now, at least the next couple weeks.

List of lovers:
From most scummiest to least, IMO:

-wolf & OF
-Cephrir & charter
-ThAdmiral & DBE
-neko & sekinj
-Erratus Apathos & SSF
-Panda & armlx (pacman)
-Alabaska & kloud (dybeck)
-Harvey & cerebus
-Adel & pwnz
-RR & WWB

I don't agree with the lovers you consider most scummy. I have not seen anything really scummy from TheAd/dbe or neko/sek and as far as of/wolf and ceph/char I have them closer to the middle.

Precisely the point I was making.
Walt - when you do catch up, can you give us an LoS, or a top 3 suspects? would be nice to know who you're thinking about.

From most scummiest to least, IMO:

-Alabaska & Kloud (dybeck)
-crazy & Knight (farside)
-adel & pwnz
-Cephrir & Charter
-Wolf (raff) & OF
-Harvey & cerebus
-Panda & Armix (pacman)
-Erratus & SSF
-neko & sekinji
-Dbe & theadmiral

I don't have enough suspicion to vote for anyone at this point, however I am suspicious based of a few people based on the comments I made above and some of the points other people have made in this thread.

FoS: Kloud

FoS: crazy

[WaltWishbone]

WWB, why do you consider TheAdmiral and DBE the most pro-town pair in this game? The thought of that is shocking to me, considering that combined they make up about 1% of all the content in this thread. One lurker isn't suspicious. When two are paired up, it definitely is.

I do not think they are the most pro-town nor did I write that, I wrote that I consider them the least scummy. Although, the same could be said for the last four pairs of lovers on my list. I could have easily put them in a four way tie for least scummy. Part of it is not having enough information and/or participation, part is voting patterns, and part is they have not done anything extremely anti town in my opinion.

The one thing that stood out about dbe/TheAd during my re-read was their voting pattern; they seem perfectly synched as a pair and not aligned with a group. I am giving dbe the benefit of the doubt on her l/a status; if they continue to lurk after today without explanation then I may adjust my opinion.

RR actually asked me the same question in daytalk, he and I defer in our opinion on them, although he has not elaborated yet. I am going to wait for him to respond, I may change my list a bit depending on what he writes. I could have missed something, but I just don't see anything at this point that makes me as suspicous as others seem to be.

So it's interesting that dybeck and Alabaska both agree that Fire/Ice are the best candidates for the lynch in daytalk. So why did neither of them vote for them?

This is not true. Alabaska did vote Iceman, and dybeck did not agree that Fire/Ice was the best lynch.

YES, it is true. These are the nine people who voted for iceman - Cephrir, Erratus Apathos, WaltWishbone, somestrangeflea, sekinj, Crazy, ThAdmiral, charter, Raging Rabbit.

Alabaska voted for Adel
Kloud (dybeck) voted for SSF

Seriousley, check your facts before making those kinds of statements. It confuses things and is anti town. He did have a vote on iceman at one point but removed it well before iceman reached l2, which I wrote in my post and you did not quote in yours.

OF/Wolf should be lynched. I feel sad that nobody listened to my case. Adel, you're voting OF, and I knew if you made a lynching case on him, people would listen to you. [/buddy up]

I read your case against OF/Wolf, it has merit but in my opinion, not enough to lynch someone. Unless Adel can point something out that you did not, it will not make a difference to me.

Cephrir dinging my case as "fail" based on nothing hits my scumdar hard. It's like the same way at the beginning of the game when he dismissed the mass-claim idea.

I need to go back and re-read what he wrote. I thought he elaborated on it a bit further in a follow up post but I could be wrong. But considering your reason for dismissing the mass claim so quickly, I wouldn't talk, your "scumtell" was weak.

[WaltWishbone]

So it's interesting that dybeck and Alabaska both agree that Fire/Ice are the best candidates for the lynch in daytalk. So why did neither of them vote for them?

This is not true. Alabaska did vote Iceman, and dybeck did not agree that Fire/Ice was the best lynch.

Just for clarity sake, crazy, here is the part of my post you did not quote nor include in your post and perhaps did not even read.

I also looked for potential scum buddies for fire/ice during my re-read. dybeck was first, he seemed to try to derail both the firestarter wagon with an erroneous vote on SSF and the Iceman wagon by calling us a lazy town. However there seemed to be enough of a disparity between he and Iceman, as well as Alabaska voting (then removing his vote) to cast a shadow of a doubt in my mind.

@ Walt: Yes, I have had a chance to read over the daytalk of my lover and dybeck. I would gladly paraphrase the conversation in hopes of clarifying a few things for the group.

1) Mod explains the quicktopic is for daytalk
2) Lover greets dybeck
3) Lover asks if dybeck really feels that SSK is the best lynch for the day. Asks dybeck to give reasoning if he feels that SSK is the right choice
4) Dybeck claims that he isn't sure. Says that Fire/Ice could be scum, but didn't think the case presented was very convincing at that point. Feels like there should be pressure on more people.

5) Lover agrees that Fire/Ice/OP are the most scummy and best candidates for lynch.

6) I replace dybeck

I am not really sure what dybeck was getting at with the vote against SSK, and I feel that it will be necessary for me to go and read back over his posts when my head isn't throbbing, as I may be of more help to the town at tip-top shape. More to come a little later.

So it's interesting that dybeck and Alabaska both agree that Fire/Ice are the best candidates for the lynch in daytalk. So why did neither of them vote for them?

Alabaska voted for Adel and dybeck voted for SSF, even though in posts number 4 and 5 they agree that fire/ice/op are the best lynch. I am not ready to vote for them, however this is something that should be taken into consideration.

[WaltWishbone]

Um, I was on the icemanE wagon.

How come you didn't vote for Iceman or Firestarter/OP? What made you decide to vote for Adel?

[WaltWishbone]

I'm not ready to vote, I need to re-read some stuff. I realize we have a lot of players and it will take quite a few votes to lynch, however considering how quickly a few of the bandwagons have moved I would not want to see a lynch before I have a chance to unvote. This is not quite as easy as day one with fire/ice/op in my opinion. There have been some very intriguing posts over the weekend and I need to reconsider my LoS a bit.

[WaltWishbone]

What time did you get asked to replace BM? SSF asked fror a replacement but it was only a few hours before you posted. It could be for him, I don't think anyone else had asked for a replacement.

[WaltWishbone]

What time did you get asked to replace BM? SSF asked fror a replacement but it was only a few hours before you posted. It could be for him, I don't think anyone else had asked for a replacement.

Someone else had asked for replacement beforehand, so i offered. Then i was told the place was taken, but i'd be kept on the waiting list. 3 hours later, and SSF drops out, so i figured i'd hop in and help u guys out.

WHERE'S MA LOVER!?

BM

So, you are not officially in the game? What if SSF has been replaced by someone else as well?

[WaltWishbone]

Wolf had asked for a replacement and Darox I believe took his spot.

[WaltWishbone]

I am in the process of re-reading and making notes as I go; I am not convinced cerebus3 is the best lynch, especially under the condition he and HarveyPew are werewolves. They both seemed ready to lynch Firestarter as the wagon built steam. I think they were mistaken by buying into icemans explanations, however in my opinion they would have gladly lynched FS. There was also a point in the crazy wagon when Harvey Pew could have joined cerebus to soldify a lynch, however he did not bandwagon. I think there are several points which make sense in the argument against both, they have acted mildly scummy, however I do not think they are werwolves. If anything they are mafia, but I am not ready to vote for either.

I still have a strong fos on crazy, I think that is a wagon that needs to be explored further. I think the case against him was stong, only lacking a few elements to justify a lynch. His secret scumtell sounds like a load, voting for himself, flip-flopping, and jumping on every band wagon formed. Just within the last few hours, he and KoC have gone from OF/Dar to cerbus/HP, and although it is a strong case, it is an extremely quick jump to get someone lynched in my opinion.

I am not seeing a solid case on OF/Dar, although they are mildly suspect. This is the second wagon for them that formed and fizzled. I go back and forth on adel/pwnz, she seems most pro-town in many ways, however there is something odd in the way she keeps derailing wagons; in the case of cerebus I agree, however I completely disagree with her change on iceman and question her motives on crazy. The whole scumtell was a waiste, however she did lead us to scum on day one. Regardless, I would not vote for her at this point, if anything she is mafia but she is too good a scum hunter and we still have one more group of werewolves to lynch.

Neko/Sekjini, Thead/dbe, erratus/bm, sp/arm all seem pretty town to me. The only thing I can write here is dbe is still not contributing much, battlemage has gone really quiet since he learned his role, sekinji possible numbering slip, and armix misreading the point of rr's comments to him about repeating comments about players who are already lynched. There are a few other points that have been mentioned about theAd that I want to reread, but at this point I am getting townie vibes from all of these couples.

I have had a few questions for Charter/cephrir during teh course of the game, however nothing undeniable. I would like to re-read the posts in isolation, which I will do after this post, however I feel strongly at this point the best lynch is alabaska/Kloud (dybeck).

I explained a little bit of my reasoning at the start of day two and there have been several other good points made by others through out the course of the day. The one thing I would like to elaborate on a bit is their daytalk.

1) Mod explains the quicktopic is for daytalk
2) Lover greets dybeck
3) Lover asks if dybeck really feels that SSK is the best lynch for the day. Asks dybeck to give reasoning if he feels that SSK is the right choice
4) Dybeck claims that he isn't sure. Says that Fire/Ice could be scum, but didn't think the case presented was very convincing at that point. Feels like there should be pressure on more people.
5) Lover agrees that Fire/Ice/OP are the most scummy and best candidates for lynch.
6) I replace dybeck

The overbearing defense by dybeck of iceman is really odd. Especially comparing their games posts with their paraphrased daytalk. I believe the day talk is fabricated; comment 5 claims alabaska agrees with dybeck that iceman/fire is the best lynch. Comment 4, dybeck is not sure of who to lynch, he is considering iceman/fire, however still undecided. So what is alabaska "agreeing" too? That was not dybecks position, in fact it is the opposite, dybeck tries to stop icemans lynch and inevitably neither vote for them.

VOTE: Kloud

[WaltWishbone]

I think that puts it at 7/7, without votes from the key players; Kloud, Alabaska, HarveyPew, or Cerebus. Also not voting is dbe and battlemage. I think this is the current vote count.

kloud1516 (7) - ThAdmiral, Erratus Apathos, Cephrir, Armix, WWB, Adel, Darox
cerebus3 (7) - SleepyPanda, Raging Rabbit, sekinj, charter, Knight of Cydonia, neko2086, Crazy

Unfortunately RR will not be around at the deadline, I'd like to hear a little more from him on cer/hp and I would like to hear what he thinks of my further thoughts on alab/kloud. I think he might convince me of his case or swing his vote.

After reading charter/cephrir isolated; I think it's a good case to investigate tomorrow along with crazy, however again I think the alab/kloud is the best lynch today. I have noticed a few more things after re-reading, I believe they are scum however I am not sure if they are werewolves or mafia. I am leaning towards werewolves based on dybecks defense of ice and any vote or fos for fire/ice/op by either was just a smokescreen. If they turn mafia, I have a good idea who their partners may be and this is a good speculation of their possible reasoning for not voting iceman.

This lynch has all the hallmarks of a lazy lynch by a town that has closed its mind to other options.

This post has all the hallmarks of scum knowing a townie will be lynched so he can say "told you so" tomorrow.

Almost makes me want to get off the wagon.

As far as their paraphrased daytalk compared with their game posts; dybeck voted for ssf and alabaska voted for iceman on aug 10th, that would coincide with their daytalk post number 3. Then on the 13th, dybeck made his argument against the iceman lynch being lazy which coincides with post number 4. Then in post number 5, Kloud claims alabaska agrees that iceman is the best lynch, however he had already voted for ice. So not only does dybeck not vote for ice, alabaska takes his vote off ice on the 17th and places it on adel for a really weak reason. None of this makes sense and I believe it is because the daytalk seems completely fabricated.

Alabaska, Kloud; I'm all ears if you would like to explain this to me. However as I stated, I think your daytalk was contrived.

[WaltWishbone]

Cross posted with destructor. It's 7-6, I believe crazy didn't unvote before voting for cerebus.

[WaltWishbone]

Yeah, Adel is right, although the vote count may actually be 8-7 on Kloud, (I'm not sure who's votes may not count due to the unvoting rule). With the deadline fast approaching don't you want to address any of the points in the case Alabaska or Kloud? Does someone want to play Devil's advocate on their behalf? I would expect some kind of discussion or argument if we were about to lynch a townie?

[WaltWishbone]

Alabaska, I'm glad you are here. Can you paraphrase your daytalk in your words, maybe kloud made a mistake? Can you tell us what day each post was made? It seems very inconsistent with the game play. For example in post 5 in your daytalk, Kloud says you agreed with dybeck to lynch iceman. You had already voted for him though? So what were you agreeing to? Instead you unvoted and voted for adel? Also dybeck never votes for him? There are a lot of outstanding questions for you both.

[WaltWishbone]

Actually I believe the deadline passed at 9pm; 1 hour and 25 minutes from his post at 7:35pm. I feel more comfortable in my vote now; both Alabaska and Kloud have been here knowing they were going to be lynched but did not write anything in their defense or address any of the questions raised over the course of the day. I was here and could have unvoted, to flip the vote in their favor had they written anything substantial but they did not write anything on their own behalf. I have a feeeling they will turn mafia. I am very suprised cerebus and Harvey Pew did not vote either. I have a few thoughts, which I will hold until Destructor makes the final announcement.

[WaltWishbone]

Darox, way to ignore Crazy. He does have a point. His OF case is still crap though.

OF's reaction to my case was incredibly OMGUS. You must admit that if nothing else.

Darox, what are you doing? If you have no objection to paraphrasing your daytalk, go ahead and do it. If you do have objection, then say why.

I wouldn't mind seeing it Darox, however I think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. One of the reasons I voted for kloud/alabaska was their day talk and it made so much more sense when alabaska posted his version, unfortunately it was too late.

I'm not sure what to think now, I need to re-read the HP/Cer case and talk to RR when he gets back. I find it really curious they went so quiet when they were close to being lynched. I'm not sure if this is more townie or scummy; but it is something that is interesting at the very least. I'm not oppossed to picking up the crazy discussion, that died pretty quickly after Icemans wagon. Other than that, I'm not really sure who I suspect, I need to do some more reading.

I think we should be able to figure out who the other werewolves are out of those who didn't vote for them in the final lynch;

HarveyPew/Cerebus
Armix/Sleepy Panda
oppossedforce/Darox
adel/Pwnz

adel/pwnz both voted for them originally and adels case pretty much hung iceman in my opinion so I'm not really considering them. With Harvey Pew and Cerebus, again they seemed completely unaware that ice and fire were lovers and seemed ready to lynch fire. I am going to re-read OF/Dar and SP/Arm isolated to see if I see anything unordinary.

More later.

[WaltWishbone]

Cross posted, reading Darox post now.

[WaltWishbone]

Armix, I didn't catch this the first time around or think much of it, but how is crazy confirmed town?

[WaltWishbone]

Armix, I didn't catch this the first time around or think much of it, but how is crazy confirmed town?

Reread how he caught icemanE.

This will have to be REALLY good...
Can you be a little more specific?

BM

Please do, I don't remember him contributing a lot to lynching iceman. Also, just because he may have helped hang a werefolf, does not mean he is not mafia.

Reading darox daytalk now, more later.

[WaltWishbone]

Knowing a scumtell has nothing to do with alignment.

Holy crap, you mean I didn't know what you were talking about? Okay, so now I know nothing about your alignment.

Then it appears that I have a scumtell of my own, then, the one that I've been referring to this whole time. That coincidentally also would work better without a mass-claim and is something that scum would have no idea of. I suggest keeping me alive until Day 3/4 at least so I can reveal what it is. K? If I don't have anything then, you can lynch me. Really, what's the harm in this unless you're scum?

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

Don't answer that now.

What doesn't make any sense to me is that Crazy thinks that claiming how many PMs from the mod you got in your inbox would reveal scum after 3 or 4 game days.

I was expecting after 3 or 4 days that everyone would post all their daytalk... I didn't see anything in the rules against that.

Iceman attacked Crazy because "You can't have gotten something extra in your role PM" and "Unless you got a second message telling you about this that I missed"

All the original towns people did get a second message to give them daytalk threads, and it this pretty much outed iceman and confirmed crazy.

But how does that make crazy not mafia?

[WaltWishbone]

I see what you are saying but as BM said Destructor wrote in his post number#4 we were all getting a second pm. To me this was not the most damaging point against iceman, until adels post detailing all of the merits of the case and then firestarter coming out as his lover was the final "nail", in my opinion. I don't see that this confirms crazy as town.

[WaltWishbone]

Darox's chat was pretty convincing, although the same thought went through my mind that crazy had, it did take a lot of time. I dont think this is really a scumtell though. I hope OF is replaced soon, I'd like to hear what his replacement has to contibute. As far as the crazy discussion, there may be a few people who believe he is confirmed, but there are quite a few who do not, including myself and even he admits he is only mostly cleared. I really dont have anything other than whats already been stated too justify a case against him though and koc seems fairly town to me. I'd like to hear more from dbe and thAd, I hope dbe is ok with all the bad weather, I didn't see anything in the news about evacuations though, so hopefully she is just busy and will post soon. As far as the other werewolves, I tend to agree with adel, that SP seems fairly town. I'm not sure what to make of hp, I am going to do some more reading.

[WaltWishbone]

Well I wrote of a magnificent (ok not really) but longish post, about harvey and his..antics. And the site gave me some sort of expired error? I clicked back but my message was gone. *cry*

So, I am gonna do what I did in said post

vote Harvey

and if you guys want a more in depth reason as to why..well...I'll have to do it later cos im miffed at MS at the moment.

I would like a more in depth reason...or just a reason...or anything.

I second SleepyPanda's request, I would like to hear your thoughts. In the mere 15 minutes it took you to read and compose your post, there were plenty of other players on MS who did not have a problem posting. You only have 15 posts, half are saying you are going to be on l/a, responding to prods, or one liners, not much content. I'd really like to know why you think HP and Cerebus should be lynched.

fos: dbe

I'd like to hear more from dbe and thAd

Anything in particular. I'm happy to answer questions by any and all.

ThAd, nothing more specific than what SP wrote, I'd just like to hear from you in general. What your thoughts are so far, who you think is most scummy thus far and why, however the question is more directed for dbe.

As far as HP/Cerebus, if I end up voting for them, it will be as Mafia, not werewolves. One thing that really stands out to me is their votes on firestarter, and to me it seems they are really unaware that iceman and firestarter were lovers. They defended iceman to a degree, however were ready to lynch firestarter. Their votes remained on fire for at least three days, when the wagon was at full speed and I don't think scum partners would have bussed that early.

I think RR returns Sunday, I want to see what he has to say and to continue re-reading before voting.

[WaltWishbone]

@Harvey Pew & Cerebus - How come you took your vote off Alabaska and neither you or Cerebus voted in the day two lynch?

fos: ThAdmiral

This is more based on what I wrote regarding dbe, however consolidating votes and what not.

[WaltWishbone]

Here's a question for Raging Rabbit -or- his lover.

NO ONE ELSE ANSWER!!!

We've already killed werewolves. Today, should we go after werewolves or mafia?

Had you bothered to read the thread, you would know the answer to this already. I am not going to encourage your sloth, if you want to know then read the thread. I am going to read this little wank of your Toster again and respond, however lynching to lynch is extremely scummy. We can catch the second set of werewolves without Adels help, who is more than likely mafia.

fos : Adel

[WaltWishbone]

It mean she hasnt read the thread crazy, and she is asking questions that have been answered. Scum are lazy, dont ya think.

[WaltWishbone]

Yeah, good point and I guess scum/townies equally make mistakes, however it something that doesn't go on or isn't caught after so much time.

Look at the way she asked the question, it is an obvious important question to her and adel, howver they both already know the answer to this as I addressed it several times. Thus she obviousley has not paid enough attention to the case she is making against RR and me and is clearly not willing to do so. They both just want someone hung and that is whats scummy in my opinion.

Look at how many times adel has jumped ship and voted for a lynch; first she wanted you and Farside hung, then fire and ice, then OF and his lover, then dbe & thead, then HP/cer, then Ala/Kloud, now me & RR. She is completely wrong and anti town for being so careless with her vote; her vote is just as scummy and dangerous as Dbe's l1 or l2. she is gonna keep getting townies hung if she keeps playing this way as quickly as the wagons are forming and I don't think she cares and she may not be scum, but she is anti-town in that sense.

I still need to reread and see if Toaster wrote anything worth responding too.

[WaltWishbone]

Here's a question for Raging Rabbit -or- his lover.

NO ONE ELSE ANSWER!!!

We've already killed werewolves. Today, should we go after werewolves or mafia?

Had you bothered to read the thread, you would know the answer to this already. I am not going to encourage your sloth, if you want to know then read the thread. I am going to read this little wank of your Toster again and respond, however lynching to lynch is extremely scummy. We can catch the second set of werewolves without Adels help, who is more than likely mafia.

fos : Adel

YOU should read the thread. RagingRabbit has already answered the question. I am not going to encourage your sloth.

This is bizarre beyond words: "however lynching to lynch is extremely scummy" Er - I always lynch "to lynch" I don't pussyfoot around!

Thats no longer the point, the question should have never been asked by YOU, because it was already answered. You just want someone hung, you dont give a fuck who it is or you would pay more attention.

[WaltWishbone]

Thats no longer the point, the question should have never been asked by YOU, because it was already answered. You just want someone hung, you dont give a fuck who it is or you would pay more attention.

Unfortunately, when you neglected to notice that RR had already answered my question, you lost the ability to effectively make a case with that argument. You just want anyone that accuses your duo to be hung.

And now you're working to find

post hoc

evidence. That does NOT look good for you.

Do you just make shit up out of your ass or do you eat first? With that spin you would make a damn fine Reporter, sensationalism and spin seem to be second nature to you. I did notice RR answered your question, however he nor I do not speak alone for us as a couple. We both have different thoughts, and especially on this matter since I answered your question a few weeks ago. It is important that people see the falacy of your case and how irresonsibly you prepared it. I haven't made a case against you or adel yet, because I am not sure if you are scum or just lazy town, if I do decide to venture in that direction any evidence I have colected against you is relevant. Just because you use the "neener, neener" defense does not make you any less suspect.

[WaltWishbone]

Here's a question for Raging Rabbit -or- his lover.

NO ONE ELSE ANSWER!!!

We've already killed werewolves. Today, should we go after werewolves or mafia?

The above is post 1348 that adel is referring to.

True, there's also almighty 10k game posts.

and the scumtells we are sitting on.

why aren't you answering the question TS directly asked you in 1348?

you've made two posts in this game since then...

Adel also wants the question answered.

Thanks RR! That was great!

Why didn't you mention his plan of pretending to go after werewolves that he presented in the thread?

Can you see why my vote is on you now?

~~~

Has anyone else had that many (or more) disagreements with their lover?

Why are you asking questions that you already know the answeres to, which you clearly indicate you KNOW in this post? You know I had an idea that I posted in the game thread about going after werewolves, yet you still second Toaster's question, which she obviousley asked because she did not bother reading the thread when she joined the game. Why? Also you know RR has been out of town since last weekend, and my post#23 was last Monday, so of course we do not have any daytalk regarding this yet you still ask. Why?

[WaltWishbone]

To clarify, I am assuming that is the post you mean, however I don't understand where th pretending part comes from? I had an idea that it would be easier to go after werewolves, however I would be happy lynching either mafia or werewolves.

[WaltWishbone]

I'm just curious, why she is asking a question or seconding a question she knows I already answered.

[WaltWishbone]

Do you just make shit up out of your ass or do you eat first? With that spin you would make a damn fine Reporter, sensationalism and spin seem to be second nature to you. I did notice RR answered your question, however he nor I do not speak alone for us as a couple. We both have different thoughts, and especially on this matter since I answered your question a few weeks ago. It is important that people see the falacy of your case and how irresonsibly you prepared it. I haven't made a case against you or adel yet, because I am not sure if you are scum or just lazy town, if I do decide to venture in that direction any evidence I have colected against you is relevant. Just because you use the "neener, neener" defense does not make you any less suspect.

Did you know that it is not an uncommon belief that scum are more likely to explode when they feel there is a case against them for the wrong reasons?

I think it can go either way, however that is far from exploding. It addreses the issues.

[WaltWishbone]

@ThAdmiral - That's not a great analogy. Three things; this is not in real time, I have been away for the last 48 hours and could have been hung by the time I returned without a say in the matter. Second, a defendent does not have the right to question his prosecuter for the same crime in a court of law. Lastly, a response may also contain the same tone or redundancy in order to ellciit a reaction as someone who asked the question in the first place. Get it yet?

I need to re-read the last few days, I'm not convinced HarveyPew is the best lynch still. I completely agree with Toasterstruddle, please explain more HP; why is crazy the best lynch? Are you sure?

[WaltWishbone]

@SleepyPanda - Do you mean post#1451 it was directed at thAdmiral and HarveyPew? Why do you think it was not?

[WaltWishbone]

lol, cross post.. there were two comments in there one for thAd and one for HarveyPew.

@Sleeppypanda - why did you preceive the intial question as "merely" pressure, however conclude that my response was "frustration"? Are you sure that was the intent of my reaction?

[WaltWishbone]

@SleepyPanda - Do scum do this a lot? In your expreinces, games played when you played either scum or town, when were you more apt to use foul language and sarcasm? As scum or town? And why?

[WaltWishbone]

Adel, why did you want a case built against Charter?

[WaltWishbone]

They're not scumtells in and of themselves. If someone uses foul language all the time, then obviously it would be moot. I rather judge an individual on their own merits. The use of foul language and sarcasm is not odd by itself. It's the shift between your level-headed play prior and the much more aggressive tone you take up after being under suspicion.

So you are saying it is ok for Toasterstrudel to be patronzing and sarcastic and not me? Do you know her, have you chatted with her? I have not heard you lecture her for being patronizing yet? Why not?

How about telling me what triggered you to respond the way you did? Do you always play like that? Have you done so in other games when under suspicion?

How about you answer my question first.

[WaltWishbone]

I believe I already have.

They're not scumtells in and of themselves.

If someone uses foul language all the time, then obviously it would be moot.

I rather judge an individual on their own merits. The use of foul language and sarcasm is not odd by itself.

It's the shift between your level-headed play prior and the much more aggressive tone you take up after being under suspicion.

I'm not lecturing you. I'm not your mother. I don't care if you use foul language or if you patronize others. I'm noting you because I haven't played with TS as much as I have with you. I don't have anything to compare her playstyle with. Her first post was that she'd crack the game in 15 minutes. Maybe her playstyle is just wild.

Answer nao, pleez.

woot, she cracked this game in 15 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yay............................................................................................................................... she was wrong, lol.

[WaltWishbone]

Where are my answers? >:[

You are worse than my Lover as far as nagging goes, here are your answers sweety pie... she DIDNT read or she would have known I wanted to hang werewolves, and it pissed me off and I decided to POKE her to see how strong her convictions were. She backed off, because her case was to build pressure as both you and the theAD had pointed out.... however who caved? It was adel and thesturdel. So I kinda am glad they came down on me and RR as hard as they did, it make me think they a little more townie.

[WaltWishbone]

Does sleepypanda know that TS is DGB and that DGB is the ruler of insanity, chaos, and Alaska?

In other news,

Unvote: Cephrir

DGB is the future president? rofl.

*commits suicide*

BM

[WaltWishbone]

I'll be on again before deadline but have yet to see a compelling reason not to vote for Harvey Pew.

This.

I have no clue what Armix means as usual?

[WaltWishbone]

Actually Armix, isn't SleepyPanda your lover?

[WaltWishbone]

NO, its not obvious, please explain?

[WaltWishbone]

SP is my lover.

I really don't see how you don't understand what I'm saying.

1. I am online right now.
2. I'm pretty sure I will be online again before the deadline.
3. I'm not compelled to move my vote form HP to elsewhere.

okay number one

what does "this" mean? Why is your vote there?

number two#

Why do you keep writting crazy is "confirmed" town, when most the town is not sure it is true? You seem to want to have a pissing contest about it, so lets have it!

[WaltWishbone]

I'm just completely befuddle by what you are trying to say/do here Walt.....

As usual.

Can't catch a fish if he won't take the bait.

[WaltWishbone]

Armix, can you please explain why we should lynch HarveyPew since he has made his remarks addressing Townies concerns?

[WaltWishbone]

@ThAdmiral - That's not a great analogy. Three things; this is not in real time, I have been away for the last 48 hours and could have been hung by the time I returned without a say in the matter. Second, a defendent does not have the right to question his prosecuter for the same crime in a court of law. Lastly, a response may also contain the same tone or redundancy in order to ellciit a reaction as someone who asked the question in the first place. Get it yet?

Taking the analogy a bit too seriously.

TO ALL: I don't know where darla is either. I would also like her to post more. However - I don't really see why this makes us seem scummy. Why does more active = town? I'm trying to get on and talk as much as possible, but I am also trying to enjoy my holiday in new york - hence you may not get as much out of me as other people.

You asked.

[WaltWishbone]

...she DIDNT read or she would have known I wanted to hang werewolves...

So according to you, who are the wolves and why?

I really don't know, thats why I have not voted. My best read is from the four who did not vote for them.... and you are right all four couples should have pressure. But I'm just not gonna ask a lame question or vote for someone to start a discussion/debate. I need to reread some things.

[WaltWishbone]

To clarify, you are right to pressure people (not just the 4 werewolf supsect couples, imo).

[WaltWishbone]

well i would apologise for my absence, but it seems i havent missed much. No Lover, No response to my accusation on Crazy/KoC. *cries*

BM

This is where i'm at. I dont see alot of point me continuing reading when you're the only person who knows i'm here, and you're not being totally helpful.

BM

I'd like to read your case, you seem sure crazy is scum, however you have not written enough to convince me to vote for him. Although we have all "hopefully" read his questionable comments during day#1, I think it would be good to re-address the issues.

At this point I am not sure where to put my vote, I did not get a chance to do the reading I wanted to yesterday, I'm going to try now. There seems very little is going to stop the HP lynch. I think several players seem convinced HP is the right lynch and he is not offering any further defense or building a case for a better lynch.

I'll post more after some reading.

[WaltWishbone]

I have been doing a lot of reading today; I was looking for potential patterns from specific players and went back over the wagons that have formed throughout the course of the game. The HarveyPew/Cerebus lynch might have been prevented, as well as Alabaska/Kloud had they presented a timely defense or someone played Devil's advocate on their behalf. I thought Ala/Kld would be a good lynch and saw the merits of the case against HP/Cer, however the wagons are forming too quick, lacking enough substance, and we are losing the advantage we gained on day one with the lynch of Fire/Ice.

I don't see the case against BattleMage at this point. I have done a revised LoS with my reads, based on the last few weeks and the reading I did today. It is interesting; during the Fire/Ice lynch at least one person from every couple voted or was prepared to vote for one or the other at some point during the day. So, there was some distancing and perhaps bussing towards the end by their partners. Iceman posted their "daytalk", which I imagine from what little there was, it still had some truth to it. Reading between the lines a bit, there are two things that stand out; it is more than likely the entire group agreed that a mass claim was a bad idea and they knew Fire/Ice had made too big a mistake to avoid being lynched.

I am not going to do a LoS on who I think is most to least likely scum, I am going to present my thoughts on possible scenarios and/or groups. I am not ready to vote, however this is how I read the game at this point.

LoS/Reads
Scumish - Possible Werewolves
Charter/Cephrir - They seem to buddy with Iceman and to a lesser degree Fire, right from the start of the game and seem to be working towards the common goals of lynching crazy, preventing a massclaim, and moving suspicion from Fire/Ice to anyone else. In Cephrirs posts#1, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11, 12 and Charter's posts#3, 12, 13, 36 they continue to reinforce these issues until shortly after Adel posted her case against Ice and then began to question Fire on his erroneous vote, concluding when they admitting they were lovers.

What is intriguing to me is that as the wagon formed and the case began to take shape they seemed to dismiss the most damning evidence and changed their vote to Ice without a lot of reasoning. It does not seem unlikely, at the point it became clear Fire/Ice were going to be lynched, they decided the best course of action would be to Bus.

Starrie (OF/Space)/Darox (wolf/Raff) - Neither OF or Wolf voted for Fire/Ice in the final count. OF had a vote on Ice at one point however removed it after the wagon began to build steam and placed it on crazy. He also claims near the deadline that he is ready to vote for Iceman but will not because he is L2, however several people removed their votes bringing him to 9 and he did not vote for him.

Wolf also expressed doubt however never voted for him. I re-read the daytalk Darox posted and although it was quite detailed and seems very realistic it seems a bit incosistent with a few comments made in the game thread. Wolf makes the comment that his Lover will not talk to him, however they are talking in daytalk. Wolf unvotes crazy because he "made a mistake", however in daytalk the following day he reiterates he considers him a suspect.

Scumish to neutral - Possible Werewolves or Mafia
Sleepy Panda/Armix (pm) - Niether Sleepy Panda or Armix voted for Fire/Ice either, Sleepy Panda made the same comment as OF regarding a vote on Ice at L2, however did not vote for him in the final count. Armix joined the game late and was more than likely trying to play catch up reading before the day one lynch. Armix insistence that crazy is confirmed town is questionable when most of the Town does not agree with him. I do not think he has placed a lot of detail into his reasons for some of his votes. There seems to be similarities and a degree of buddying between he and crazy, they could be the Mafia group.

Scumish - Possible Mafia
Crazy/Knights (fs) - Most of what can be said about crazy comes from day one. The null scumtell, the appeals to emotion, and the self vote among others. I think he has remained more cautious during day two and three, however I think he is too quick to cast votes and change wagons. The same can be said for KoC as far as votes and wagons.

Adel/Toaster (pwnz) - I continue to flip flop on Adel; I give her a lot of credit for leading the town to scum day one. I think she has been one of the Towns most aggressive and perhaps best scum hunter to a point. I think it has been helpful to assert pressure, however I do disagree with how easily she places her votes on people. The same can be said for Toaster during the short time she has been in the game. There does seem to be a degree of buddying going on between Crzy/KoC and SP/Arm which could indicate they are part of the Mafia group.

Townish
ThAd/Darla - It is not so much I consider ThAd/dbe town as they just have not posted enough to make me suspect they are scum. I would not feel right voting for them on lurking and dbe's L2 vote alone, however there lack of participation is hurting the town's chance.

BattleMage (ssf)/Clockwork (ea) - I am really looking forward to reading Clockworks evaluation on the game so far. I think BM is just a litle too focused on crazy, however he has not done anything really that has made me suspect him or to join the wagon which has formed on him.

Sekinji/Neko - I get a pro-town vibe from both. They are conservative with their votes and seem to put a lot of thought into who they supsect. I think they both have been actively scumhunting and have presented solid reasoning behind their votes.

[WaltWishbone]

Scumish to neutral - Possible Werewolves or Mafia
Sleepy Panda/Armix (pm) - Niether Sleepy Panda or Armix voted for Fire/Ice either, Sleepy Panda made the same comment as OF regarding a vote on Ice at L2, however did not vote for him in the final count.

My vote was on Fire. When ice announced that he and Fire were lovers, there was no reason to move my vote as he was already the leading bandwagon by quite a lot.

If HP were to flip scum, would you find Cephrir's last minute arbitrary vote on HP more or less scummy? The result wouldn't change regardless.

I don't think it's a tell either way on it's own, they are just things to keep track of in my opinion. Kinda like connecting the dots, perhaps if it's combined with other behavior it could become something worth discussing. With Cephrir, it is interesting to note.

Townish
ThAd/Darla - It is not so much I consider ThAd/dbe town as they just have not posted enough to make me suspect they are scum. I would not feel right voting for them on lurking and dbe's L2 vote alone, however there lack of participation is hurting the town's chance.

BattleMage (ssf)/Clockwork (ea) - I am really looking forward to reading Clockworks evaluation on the game so far. I think BM is just a litle too focused on crazy, however he has not done anything really that has made me suspect him or to join the wagon which has formed on him.

Why aren't these two filed under "scum to neutral" instead of "townish"? Why will they not be considered scummy until they do something scummy? If everyone were to lurk, would you consider them all "townish" then?

No, I probably should have worded that better, perhaps "little to no read" would have been better. I understand your point, I'm not sure how to get them to participate more if they are not willing. I do agree BattleMage tunnel vision on crazy is counter productive and dbe/ThAd's votes on HP seemed really careless along with there lack of contributions, but for me it's not enough to lynch them. Esepcially when they are people who have acted scummy in my opinion.

[WaltWishbone]

Armix insistence that crazy is confirmed town is questionable when most of the Town does not agree with him.

Actually, I'm pretty sure its a vocal minority who doesn't agree.

How about we have a vote? Who believes crazy is confirmed town?

I had another thought, what does everyone think if we all were to post our daytalk?

[WaltWishbone]

For clairification - The daytalk would be a quick rundown which includes post number, author, date, time, and a paraphrased version of each post.

[WaltWishbone]

How about we have a vote? Who believes crazy is confirmed town?

I can agree here.

Confirmed- armlx
Unconfirmed- Walt, BM

Add your vote as necessary, Crazy + KoC do not count.

Sleep Panda voted as well, updating.

Crazy as confirmed town?
Confirmed- armlx
Unconfirmed- Walt, BM, sleepyPanda

@crazy - Yeah, I still think it's a good idea to see where everyone stands on the issue. Also, it shouldn't be confussing for the new people who are replacing in to read you if are unconfirmed or confirmed town.

@Charter - Why don't you support posting paraphrased daytalk?

[WaltWishbone]

Updating

Crazy as confirmed town?
Confirmed- armlx
Unconfirmed- Walt, BattleMage, SleepyPanda, Darox, Cephrir, RagingRabbit

Posting daytalk?
Disagree -
Agree - Armix, Sleepy Panda, Walt, Raging Rabbit, Charter, Cephrir

[WaltWishbone]

I think you are miscategorizing those who believe he is town but not "confirmed 100%". That's definitely closer to my camp then the one of you + BM who are legitimately considering voting him.

He is either confirmed town or he isn't. He could be scum as he is not a confirmed townie. I posted my read on him on the previous page and I did not indicate I was considering voting for him.

[WaltWishbone]

Crazy as confirmed town?
Confirmed- armlx
Probably town - SleepyPanda, Darox, Cephrir, RagingRabbit
Unconfirmed - N/A
Probable scum - Walt, BattleMage

I think this is a more realistic poll.

Actually, we really don't need to do the poll anymore, at least not for my benefit now that I understand what he has meant all along. I think there are several here who feel the same as I do about Sekinji/Neko, that they are confirmed townies or whatever everyone wants to call them.

[WaltWishbone]

Darox, also misquoting people is extremely scummy. I have NOT said crazy is probable scum. I presented my read on him yesterday. Raging Rabbit (I can't speak for him), but I believe he would argue with putting him in the category.

[WaltWishbone]

Scumish -

Possible Mafia

Crazy/Knights (fs) - Most of what can be said about crazy comes from day one. The null scumtell, the appeals to emotion, and the self vote among others. I think he has remained more cautious during day two and three, however I think he is too quick to cast votes and change wagons. The same can be said for KoC as far as votes and wagons.

Emphasis mine.

Deliberate misquoting is scummy, but, then again so is backtracking.

Yes it is. now you have done it twice! You left this comment out of your post were I explain clearly I am not ready to vote.

I am not going to do a LoS on who I think is most to least likely scum, I am going to present my thoughts on possible scenarios and/or groups. I am not ready to vote, however this is how I read the game at this point.

Furthermore, there is a big difference between "probable" and "possible", I wrote they were possible mafia, not probable. That is were you misquoted me the second time. There is no backtracking only calling you out for misquoting me.

[WaltWishbone]

Care to explain why you are misquoting me?

[WaltWishbone]

Dude did you edit your post?

[WaltWishbone]

I see, I didn't scroll up far enough. You rewrote it. I think my answer still covers it, you are misquoting me.

[WaltWishbone]

I think there are several here who feel the same as I do about Sekinji/Neko, that they are confirmed townies or whatever everyone wants to call them.

Elaborate plz.

I was being partly sarcastic to Darox, in otherwords, you worte that people believe crazy is town, therefore he should be considered Confirmed Town. So my point is then Sekinji/Neko and perhaps a few others should be considered Confirmed Town, if that is the standard we are going to apply.

The bottom line, by your own definition means he is NOT "confirmed town", people think he's mostly town. There is a chance he could be scum, so giving him a free pass until the end of the game is a mistake.

@crazy, I thought about that before I suggested posting daytalk. Your scumtell may actually have some merit.

[WaltWishbone]

This argument on Crazy is getting really redundant, what exactly are you guys trying to achieve? Everyone thinks he's town and he isn't getting lynched anytime soon, so I don't see the point in arguing semantics for so very long.

I realize this. Apparently Walt thinks the fact I'm calling him 100% confirmed as opposed to 90% town is a huge massive issue.

RR is right, it really comes down to semantics and is not important in the overall scheme of things. Your comments about crazy were coming across as he is unquestionably town and therefore anybody who accusses him of anything must be scum. I just wanted to be sure you understood that this is not accurate and you are "probably" the only one who thinks he is 100% confirmed. If somebody has a good case, they should present it to the town and it should be judged on the merits. As I have stated before, I am not ready to vote for him or even make a case at this point, however I do want to read other opinions.

I now have a very good idea of who I am gonna vote for in the next lynch, they made what I think is a mistake yesterday. I wanna see the daytalk and speak with my lover first, before presenting my case.

We haven't heard from at least one person from each couple yet as far as their feelings on posting daytalk if the Mod approves. What do you all think?

Adel/Toaster
Starrie/Darox
ThAd/dbe
sekinj/Neko (Although I am assuming your question to the Mod means you have no problem with it?)
BattleMage/Clockwork

[WaltWishbone]

All.

Wanna do a random dice roll to see who goes first, then popcorn?

Everyone except thead/dbe, bm/clock, and dar/star have replied yes and Darox already posted his daytalk a few weeks back. So all he needs to do is add the date, times and whats been written since. So I think it's pretty much agreed we should proceed.

Please include this information... Post number, Day, Time, Author, paraphrased daytalk. For example only:

1.) Sept 1 9:00am WWB - I ask RR why he has not taken out the garbage, why he has not fixed the sink, and why he never sends me flowers anymore.
2.) Sept 2 10:00pm RR - Says hes going to watch the football game and wants me to bring him a beer and shut my mouth.

As far as order, I don't think it matters. It is going to take some people longer than others. I think we should all just start posting it when we finish. I think how quickly it is put together will be a tell as well.

[WaltWishbone]

In otherwords, we should all start as soon as possible and post when we are done.

[WaltWishbone]

Here is our daytalk, I am a tiny bit vague after post#58 because as I stated I have a very good idea who I am going to make a case against and the daytalk should help. I will make a case after everyone's daytalk is posted and I have a chance to read through everything.

destructor 1 08-03-2008 10:07 PM ET (US)
Destructor tells us to use this forum for daytalk.

RR 2 08-04-2008 01:13 AM ET (US)
He says hello.

WWB 3 08-04-2008 04:38 PM ET (US)
I say hello back.

RR 4 08-05-2008 07:26 AM ET (US)
He ask me if I know what the scum tell is.

WWB 5 08-05-2008 08:19 PM ET (US)
I tell him I don't know and think it may be BS. I tell him I am considering voting for Adel because her scumtell seems bogus, she is asking for a three day pass, and she wanted to lynch Alabaska for a pretty week reason.

WWB 6 08-06-2008 01:32 AM ET (US)
I tell him I did some research on wiki to try and find a scum tell but could not find anything. I ask him to tell me his experiences in night less games.

RR 7 08-06-2008 07:30 PM ET (US)
He explains a bit about night less games. He tells me I shouldn't go after Adel and he thinks too many people acknowledge the scumtell for it to be bogus. He says she is most likely town for pointing it out.

WWB 8 08-06-2008 07:40 PM ET (US)
I say thanks, sorry I've been busy, and that I will try to post later tonight.

RR 9 08-07-2008 05:34 AM ET (US)
He tells me, my post about my lover needs to shave was a mistake.

WWB 10 08-07-2008 05:51 AM ET (US)
I tell him I doubt it and I think most people will find it funny.

RR 11 08-07-2008 09:54 PM ET (US)
He says hopefully but he has been attacked for jokes before. He says that Crazy's scum tell was stupid, Iceman is full of shit, and no one else seems to know what the scum tell is but Adel. He is starting to think it is BS or minor.

WWB 12 08-08-2008 01:52 AM ET (US)
I agree. I state that it seems other players are calling her on it too. I tell him I just played a game with crazy and he acted the same way under fire. I tell him I had total tunnel vision on him but he flipped town and that I didn't want to make that mistake again. I tell him I needed to re-read because I didn't have any good scum reads other than crazy, iceman and Adel.

WWB 13 08-08-2008 05:32 AM ET (US)
I tell him I did my reread and I think crazy is possibly scum with Adel.

RR 14 08-08-2008 07:49 PM ET (US)
He tells me his opinion on crazy is in his last game post and I should read it. He says he thinks crazy made an honest mistake. He tells me he thinks iceman is scum.

WWB 15 08-09-2008 04:01 AM ET (US)
I tell him its a good post but I'm torn on crazy. I tell him I suspect farside, Adel, crazy and ? as a scum group. I tell him I see his point on ice but I'm not sure where to vote. I say it looks like crazy is going down regardless.

RR 16 08-09-2008 06:25 AM ET (US)
He says he is not sold on crazy.

WWB 17 08-09-2008 08:01 PM ET (US)
I tell him I am going to read some more and I am leaning towards ice or crazy

RR 18 08-11-2008 12:20 PM ET (US)
He says it doesn't seem like crazy is going down anymore and I shouldn't vote for him if I am not sure. He also comments on my post being somewhat of a contradiction to what I wrote in DT.

WWB 19 08-11-2008 03:30 PM ET (US)
I tell him I don't understand his question.

WWB 20 08-11-2008 03:35 PM ET (US)
I tell him after doing some more reading, I see two scum teams forming. One with crazy, farside, Adel, ?. A second group with ice, fire, charter, ? I tell him one concern is how quickly crazy and Adel came up with their scum tells, 45 minutes apart almost like they talked about in a group. I tell him I wanna go after iceman in day 1, crazy day 2, and Adel day 3.

RR 21 08-12-2008 06:32 PM ET (US)
He says he disagrees about Adel and the timing has no bearing. He explains his question; he tells me he meant what are my thoughts about crazy being town in his post.

WWB 22 08-13-2008 03:04 AM ET (US)
I tell him I voted for Iceman because I felt he is the most scummy of the lot. I tell him I still think crazy could be scum, but not sure enough to vote for him. I tell him just because crazy believed the scum tell was true does not make him town because he could be with a second faction of scum and they need to scumhunt too. I tell him I don't like Firestarter's posts and he could be scum. I tell him with Adel, I have a small suspicion but not enough to make a case. I tell him I think this game is moving really fast and apologize for going back and forth so much.

RR 23 08-13-2008 08:11 AM ET (US)
He says iceman is really scummy and he is really doubting, based on a few other posts, Adel's scum tell. He tells me that he really believes crazy is town because of the whole DT thing. He agrees the game is moving fast and says he is enjoying it

WWB 24 08-14-2008 07:39 AM ET (US)
I tell him I am enjoying it as well but it is hard to keep up. I tell him Firestarter being iceman's lover is icing on the cake. I tell him I think dybeck could be his scum partner. I tell him I see his point on crazy and I am surprised farside is not voting for ice. I tell him I think they both could be town.

RR 25 08-14-2008 01:37 PM ET (US)
He says farside has asked to be replaced so it's a null tell. He says he wants to see what people say the rest of the day and wants reads on the players who have been inactive. Also questions the blind followers Adel has attracted.

WWB 26 08-16-2008 07:10 AM ET (US)
I tell him good point and that the people asking for replacements is making things difficult. I tell him I don't get Adel's posts today and I suspect her even more. I tell him the push for the dbe wagon was really odd and the people who agreed were really suspect. I tell him I am going to do a meta on a few players. I tell him I am happy with my vote on (op)fire/ice and think they could be the werewolf team with dybeck.

RR 27 08-17-2008 08:37 AM ET (US)
He agrees on dbe and says he thinks Adel may have been trying to see who would follow her. He says its odd, but the people who agreed with her are scummier.

WWB 28 08-17-2008 11:00 PM ET (US)
I say congrats on the op/fire/ice lynch and say two down, six to go. I tell him I think dybeck is one of the other werewolves.

RR 29 08-18-2008 09:12 PM ET (US)
He tells me it is about time we come out of the closet and tell the world about our love in reference to the mass claim.

WWB 30 08-19-2008 08:11 PM ET (US)
I tell him I agree but we should wait for the town consensus.

RR 31 08-20-2008 09:10 PM ET (US)
He tells me he went ahead and did it and hopes I don't mind.

WWB 32 08-20-2008 11:14 PM ET (US)
I say no problem. I say it is very interesting Adel and pwnz are lovers.

WWB 33 08-22-2008 04:05 AM ET (US)
I tell him I caught up then posted my LoS in the game thread and asked him what he thinks.

RR 34 08-22-2008 01:43 PM ET (US)
He tells me he will have more thoughts when he finishes re-reading. He says he agrees with crazy's post and suspects thAd most of all. He wants to know why he is at the bottom of my LoS.

WWB 35 08-22-2008 06:09 PM ET (US)
I tell him I responded to crazy in the game thread with my thoughts on ThAd and that I have very little read on the four couples on the bottom of my LoS. I say the one thing that stood out about ThAd and dbe were their voting patterns, they seem to be a tight couple not part of a group. I tell him I don't want to see them bandwagoned. I ask him why he has ThAd ranked so high? .

RR 36 08-23-2008 07:49 PM ET (US)
He tells me he made a very detailed case on HP and Cere and wants to hear my thoughts. He says ThAd and dbe are actively lurking and he thinks that's scummy.

WWB 37 08-25-2008 05:46 AM ET (US)
I tell him great posts and that I see his points about HP but I don't know if I think they are more scummy than kloud/dybeck/alabaska. I mention dybecks post at the end of day one, but state I am not sure they are werewolves. I say they may be mafia, I state it's odd neither of them voted for carzy/fs/knights and think they may be part of the mafia group based on their interactions. I tell him I did a meta on dbe and she seems to have had the same problem in several games for active lurking. She was lynched in two of them and flipped town. I say Adel led us to scum but has flip flopped and tried to start wagons on too many people. I say I'm not sure about the rest. I tell him it looks like OF is on his way out and I'm not sure that is the right lynch. I say neko/sek seem pretty town. I tell him I am gonna do some more reading, especially I want to read his case against hp again.

RR 38 08-25-2008 07:08 AM ET (US)
He says it does not make sense that dyb/klou/alab are mafia and that this is probably a null tell. He states that he does not agree they could be in a group with crazy/knights/farside. He corrects me on my vote count, he says cerebus did vote for crazy. He says that dbe's play style is similar to past games, but ThAd's one liners are useless. He says Adel is really hard to read and he is not sure what to think of her. He says he thinks OF could be town and it would be a shame to see him lynched

WWB 39 08-26-2008 02:06 AM ET (US)
I tell him I see his points and I need to do some reading. I tell him this is going to be a very hard vote.

RR 40 08-26-2008 08:26 AM ET (US)
He agrees and states his points about crazy again.

WWB 41 08-28-2008 06:10 PM ET (US)
I tell him I haven't gotten to do the reading I wanted yet and that I will try to post tomorrow.

RR 42 09-07-2008 04:30 AM ET (US)
He returns from his trip and says hello.

WWB 43 09-07-2008 06:24 AM ET (US)
I welcome him home and ask why he did not send me a postcard. I tell him what happened while he was gone. I tell him I was torn on who to vote for while he was gone. I told him I ended up voting for kloud/dybeck/alabaska and they flipped town. I told him I saw the points everyone had made against hp/cer but I just didn't buy that they were werewolves and Alabask/Kloud/dybeck seemed like the mush better lynch. I say HP/Cere seem to be favored for the day three lynch and that ThAd/dbe has become a close second. I tell him I didn't buy dbe's post being eaten again and that other people were posting with no problem during the 15 minutes in between her two post. I say I'm not sure that's enough to lynch them though. I state I'm still not 100% convinced on HP/Cere and don't know who is the best lynch. I tell him I really glad he is back and look forward to hearing his thoughts after he catches up reading.

RR 44 09-08-2008 02:59 AM ET (US)
He apologizes for not sending me a postcard and promises to take me to dinner and dancing to make up for it. He says he really thinks hp/cere votes on fire/ice was distancing and he thinks they are the second set of werewolves. He says he dislikes ThAd/dbe, because of ThAd's worthless one liners and votes with no explanations. He says the cpu error happens all the time and gives dbe the benefit of the doubt

WWB 45 09-09-2008 11:30 PM ET (US)
I say I really dislike Adel/TS case against us and I think she is scum. I say I don't want to build a case right now because it will seem like omgus, but she keeps building weak cases against people and is getting townies hung.

RR 46 09-10-2008 12:26 AM ET (US)
He ask me to link him to the post where I state my thoughts on the werewolves. He agrees the case by Adel/toaster is stupid and says if we get lynched he is going to be pissed.

WWB 47 09-10-2008 01:33 AM ET (US)
I say I believe she is referring to my post#23 and I agree with him.

WWB 48 09-10-2008 01:42 AM ET (US)
I clarify that my post was to suggest it was easier to go after werewolves then mafia but I had no preference.

RR 49 09-12-2008 12:55 AM ET (US)
He says that it looks like nobody is buying the case toaster and Adel made so sanity wins and asks me who I am going to vote for. He says he thinks HP and Cerbeus are the last werewolves.

WWB 50 09-13-2008 04:53 AM ET (US)
I say I honestly don't know who scum is and ask him to tell me if he is sure HP and Cerebus are scum.

WWB 51 09-13-2008 05:05 AM ET (US)
I say its very good that toaster and Adel case went away and said it might be a good thing for the town. I ask him what he thinks about the people who may have been trying to help it along without actually joining the bandwagon or voting like darox, Armix, ThAd. I ask him if he believes crazy is confirmed town?

RR 52 09-13-2008 12:52 PM ET (US)
He says HP is his best read but there is a chance he could be wrong as he has been in the past. He encourages me to find more suspects.

RR 53 09-13-2008 12:57 PM ET (US)
He says TS and Adel has moved up on his list for mafia and he does not understand why I wrote in the game thread I believed they only did it to pressure us. He says he does not recall who passively supported them but has a pretty pro town read on darox. He says Sleepy Panda is Armix lover and thinks he is town. He says that he thinks ThAd may be scum and says crazy isn't confirmed town but does not think he is scum.

WWB 54 09-13-2008 08:41 PM ET (US)
I say I agree with him on TS/Adel but pressure is good. I tell him I'm not voting for HP and don't know who, if anyone, I will vote for.

RR 55 09-14-2008 08:05 AM ET (US)
He says it probably doesn't make a difference, as the lynch is too close to change the results.

WWB 56 09-14-2008 07:40 PM ET (US)
I agree and say that we should try to figure out who we think is the next best lynch.

RR 57 09-15-2008 03:53 PM ET (US)
He says he is still really bothered by the weak case TS and Adel posted.

WWB 58 09-15-2008 05:10 PM ET (US)
I tell him I see some patterns forming but can't put my finger on it. I tell him it revolves around crazy/Knights, Adel/TS and Armix/Sp. I tell him I am going to post a revised LoS in the game thread but I am not ready to vote or make a case on anyone yet. I tell him I think BM is a bad lynch and we need to be very careful on the next lynch because townies are dropping fast. Also, I tell him I left his slippers and pipe by his lounge chair and will have dinner ready soon.

RR 59 09-16-2008 12:10 PM ET (US)
He lays out a case for his number two suspect, however states that he wants to keep the pressure on ThAd for now.

RR 60 09-16-2008 12:14 PM ET (US)
He says this is a placeholder. He likes the case against ThAd and does not want to post his case against his other suspect yet because they may be part of the mafia group. He agrees that BM is a bad lynch. He is not sure what to make of my Wagon analysis and is not sure it was a help.

WWB 61 09-16-2008 05:25 PM ET (US)
I tell him I think his case is good and I will add some stuff to it as soon as possible.

RR 62 09-18-2008 02:21 AM ET (US)
He asked me if the person I said I was going to vote for in my game post was his number two suspect. He says he is torn on his vote.

WWB 63 09-18-2008 05:44 AM ET (US)
I tell him who I am gonna vote for and explain a little bit of why. I also touch on the DT and tell him how I think it could help the case. I ask him what he thinks.

RR 64 09-18-2008 12:09 PM ET (US)
He responds to my comments about the DT helping.

RR 65 09-18-2008 12:12 PM ET (US)
He says he is not sure I have a point for a few reasons.

WWB 66 09-18-2008 08:03 PM ET (US)
I ask him if he is gonna post DT or he wants me too.

WWB 67 09-19-2008 12:53 AM ET (US)
I tell him several other people have posted their's, so I am going to post ours.

@ Charter - Yes, can you please add the day and times.

@Darox - Can you please repost your day talk with day, time and post number as well as anymore daytalk since you posted.

[WaltWishbone]

My daytalk already has date and number.
Way ahead of you.

The previous version you posted was missing the times, which would be helpful to cross reference for everyone, if it doesn't already.

[WaltWishbone]

@Charter - if it helps, it shouldn't take more then five minutes. You can copy your whole daytalk. Delete everything in between the post number, author, days and times, then paste your paraphrased daytalk. That is how I did mine and it looks like Sekinji did the same thing.

[WaltWishbone]

@Armix & Sleepy Panda - Can you please post all the DT before Armix replaced into the game.

This is going to be really helpful, it is already interesting to read the similarities such as; the scum tell discussion, player observations which have not been addressed in the game yet, etc... I suggest we don't start asking questions or go into detail until after everyone has posted their daytalk.

[WaltWishbone]

Everyone is done except the following.

Toaster/Adel (replacement)

BattleMage/Clockwork

Darox/Starrie - they just need to add the times and any posts since he posted his daytalk a few weeks ago.

Charter/Cephrir - they just needs to add post number, day, time

[WaltWishbone]

Clockwork, could you take a break from rereading and paraphrase your daytalk?

I'd really rather finish reading.

Strong FOS CWR

Just like you to take out everything else I said;

Please tell me how it benefits the town for me not to have read the game thoroughly and follow my lover blindly? To me Reading > Daytalk right now, until I get caught up.

Clockwork, its really simple and shouldnt take that long. Copy and paste your ENTIRE daytalk thread to a word program. Write paraphrased daytalk over what was actually written. That's it. How many daytalk posts are there in your thread?

[WaltWishbone]

CWR, combined with my suspicion of BM for trying to force through a wagon on me and Crazy based on posts that had little or no content that could be taken as scummy, if you don't post daytalk soon, I'm going to be back on BM sharpish.

And I may retract my statement that BM its a bad lynch. The same can be said for Toaster, as well as Charter/Ceph for not putting days and times in. Also Darox/Star needs to post times and add the daytalk since he posted it a few weeks ago.

Posting daytalk is simple for Town, but for Scum it's a chore. It will take a lot of time to fabricate without errors.

FOS: Clockwork, Toaster, Charter, Darox

[WaltWishbone]

And I may retract my statement that BM its a bad lynch. The same can be said for Toaster, as well as Charter/Ceph for not putting days and times in. Also Darox/Star needs to post times and add the daytalk since he posted it a few weeks ago.

There is nothing new added to my daytalk since I last posted it.

Star is a non existant lover.

Its missing the times. I thnk there are a few scumtells we will be able to tell by cross referenceing posts and times.

[WaltWishbone]

I've read through the daytalk and I am getting a pretty good Townie vibe from several couples. I'm not sure whats up with Clockwork/BM and Toaster, but posting daytalk is something that any Townie should have supported.

@Sekinj - did you just copy and past your entire daytalk thread, then paraphrase it as well?

I think the only players who would have a problem with it are scum. Charter was the first to object and resist posting it in a form that would better offer Townies the chance to give it a proper analysis.

Happy everyone? Now put it together. I think there's prolly one or two extra time's in Ceph's post cause I think I didn't include a few off topic posts.

VOTE: Charter

Their daytalk seems completely contrived, Cephrirs times don't match Charters paraphrased daytalk nor do they match with what is happening in the game in several instances. Again charter was the first to resist posting the daytalk and has made it as diifficult as possible on the town by not putting the daytalk and times together. Although I don't share Armix belief that Crazy is confirmed town, I do think there is this suspicous tunnel vision for Crazy who is one of the least likely suspects. Furthermore, he and Cephrir both defended Iceman and Fire unti it became apparant they were going to be hung then bussed them. Charter claims Adels case is BS, yet he still votes for him. As far as I'm concerened, there was no reason to vote for Iceman if you did not believe Adels case. Lastly was his omgus vote on Armix, much like Firestarer trying to divert attention from themselves and get another Townie hung.

I have more to write, which I'll get to as soon as I have a big chunk of free time, including Darox's post where he presented his analysis of Cephrirs isolated posts a few weeks ago.

@Charter- there is a small chance when cross referencing your posts with Cephrirs I made a mistake. If you would like to put it together, I will take another look, otherwise, it just seems like you made it all up.

FOS: Toaster, BM

[WaltWishbone]

Cephrirs times don't match Charters paraphrased daytalk nor do they match with what is happening in the game in several instances.

Firstly, examples plz. Secondly, why does the daytalk thread (which is basically intended for random thoughts) have to be explicitly relevant to exactly what's going on at the moment?

The daytalk thread of four people will be much different then the daytalk thread of two people because it will be fabricated. So the content as well as the little things, like days and times will show who has forged their daytalk and who has been honest.

For instance, Charter claims You made these two comments back to back in daytalk.

ceph- says the tell might be scum buddying up to their other scumbuddies
ceph- two tells, lets talk about something else

However in the times you presented, they do not exists.

Charter 5
08-04-2008 04:50 PM ET (US)
Charter 4
08-04-2008 04:11 PM ET (US)
Ceph 3
08-04-2008 08:41 AM ET (US)
cjh3u 2
08-03-2008 11:35 PM ET (US)
destructor 1
08-03-2008 10:07 PM ET (US)

It just comes across as BS and looks like you and he fabricated your daytalk around your real daytalk with your scumgroup.

I have more to write, which I'll get to as soon as I have a big chunk of free time, including Darox's post where he presented his analysis of Cephrirs isolated posts a few weeks ago.

If you seriously use that post as evidence I will personally crucify you. The main reason I didn't put effort into redoing my defense is because anyone with eyes can see how awful that case was.

Curicify me, more omgus BS, wanna hang another townie just to prevent your lynch. It was a good case that did not get the attention it deserved and I WILL bring it up again.

Again charter was the first to resist posting the daytalk and has made it as diifficult as possible on the town by not putting the daytalk and times together.

"As difficult as possible" is an exaggeration.

No it's not, who are you trying to convince? You both have made made it difficult, everybody has seen it. It's not just me who has made this comment. Nobody else had a problem doing it except Toaster and BM, who I have questions for as well. But at the moment I concent with my vote.

Although I don't share Armix belief that Crazy is confirmed town, I do think there is this suspicous tunnel vision for Crazy who is one of the least likely suspects.

You can take that up with charter if you want, I've been telling him he's wrong for quite some time now, possibly even in thread but I'm not sure.

I intend to, however I don't think this is nearly as telling as your action in regard to daytalk.

Furthermore, he and Cephrir both defended Iceman and Fire unti it became apparant they were going to be hung then bussed them.

Actually, I was the longest-standing Iceman vote.

*IcemanE (9) - Cephrir, Erratus Apathos, WaltWishbone, somestrangeflea, sekinj, Crazy, ThAdmiral, charter, Raging Rabbit

You voted for Ice first while Fire's wagon was at full steam. Had you been on Fire, it could have meant his lynch.

Also, this point is a case of seeing scummy motives behind something that can easily be explained as townie behavior (as IMO you've decided we're scum by this point in your post). Additionally, you'll notice how terrible bussing is in this setup. Can't see why anyone would do it day 1 even given WIFOM. It's not like we're such amazing players that we could reasonably place our entire hope of winning on never being lynched.

Look at the entire vote count through the course of Icemans lynch, at least one member from each couple voted for him or Fire. There was some degree of bussing or at least distancing that happened on day one.

Also, your post fails to address my 1686. What could possibly compel me to screw up the number of posts like that unless it were true. If you use the word WIFOM in your answer to this I will find a way to smack you through the internet.

Well you did, why doesn't really mattter. But more than likely it's WIFOM.

[WaltWishbone]

@Sekinj - did you just copy and past your entire daytalk thread, then paraphrase it as well?

yes. that seemed easiest. I had to clean up some spacing and formatting though.

There was only one thing I was wondering about with your daytalk, you have post number one is either from you. Did Destructor not post in your thread?

@Armix, same question? If so what was the day and time?

[WaltWishbone]

Sorry Sekinji, typo, let me reask that question. You wrote:

sekinj 1 08-04-2008 12:40 AM ET (US) hello neko

Did Destructor not make the first post in your thread?

[WaltWishbone]

DID YOU PEOPLE NOT SEE THAT I OMITTED DUMB STUPID OFF TOPIC POSTS? WE TALKED ABOUT NON GAME RELATED STUFF THAT I SEE NO POINT IN INCLUDING HERE.

Maybe someone will see that.

Will someone please explain to me what the case against me is? So I can, you know, give my side of the story? Or if you're happy lynching me for no reason other than just for the hell of it, just let me know and I'll go quietly.

I don't like how armlx is trying to quash all discussion not related to buddying up, and lynching charter. Does anyone else notice this?

Does Cephrir know you omitted posts?

Like seriously, do you think Cephscum would have made up those times without, y'know, cross referencing charter's post to see how many posts I was supposed to have? Srsly.

How are we suppossed to figure out which post goes to what time if you omitted post? If it is not contrived, why not put it together to so there is no confussion on the matter?

[WaltWishbone]

Sorry Sekinji, typo, let me reask that question. You wrote:

sekinj 1 08-04-2008 12:40 AM ET (US) hello neko

Did Destructor not make the first post in your thread?

Yeah he did. He said we were supposed to keep all talking in the quicktopic. It was 08-03-2008 09:42 PM ET (US)

The numbers must have gotten screwed up cause I pasted it into Excel first. I wasn't planning on including destructor's post since I figured everyone got it, and then I didn't really think about it when I fixed the columns to line up. So...yeah, they are all one number off. Sorry about that!

This confusses me, how exactly did you copy and paste your daytalk? By column or did you just do the whole thing at once? To me it looks like you renumbered it and I'm wondering why you would need to do that? In otherwords, when I copy and paste my daytalk, here is how it comes up.

WWB 75

09-22-2008 07:07 PM ET (US)

daytalk, daytalk, daytalk Edit
Delete

Raging Rabbit 74

09-21-2008 05:07 PM ET (US)

Daytalk, blah, blah

So to re-number it, I would need to manually do this:

WWB 74 09-22-2008 07:07 PM ET (US)
daytalk, blah, blah

Raging Rabbit 73 09-21-2008 05:07 PM ET (US)
Daytalk, blah, blah

I just don't understand how the numbers got screwed up? I used word, I'll give it a try in excel, but I kinda like to know how you did it first?

[WaltWishbone]

It doesn't matter, I could repost it all including the few off topic posts and put all the times in there, but you're still going to try and lynch me for pointless reasons. I say pointless because your reasons for voting me aren't that I'm scum, it's that I'm not letting myself get blindly led around like the rest of the town.

That's not true, your daytalk could make sense and come across as believable if the times can be matched with the posts. I don't understand your logic regarding "being lead around by the town". It is called cooperating and was agreed by the better part of the town. Doing the daytalk is a bit of a scumtell in itself, because it is far more difficult for the scum to fabricate their daytalk. There are several Townies who believe this daytalk will be helpful in finding scum and if you were town you would be supportive of those trying to scumhunt and do your part.

[WaltWishbone]

@Walt: When you paste it into excel the post number goes into a seperate column. When I cut it from the QT I didn't include the text of destructor's post, just heading part accidentally. that messed me up when I was cleaning up the formating later. I used Excel so I could wipe out all my real words in one column while keeping the names, dates and post numbers. Then I went back and put in the paraphrase with the QT open beside it. I messed with the formatting like I said, and I guess I messed the post# colum up by moving it up one, but I didn't go through and re-number. *shrug* make what you want of it.

I am familar with excel, how does the post number go into a seperate column? I don't know that function. In otherwords here is how it appears in daytalk.

sekinj 1 08-04-2008 12:40 AM ET (US) hello neko

The post number (1) is after the authors name (sekinji), so if you were to post it in cell a1; Sekinj would be first followed by #1. I don't see how a seperate column would be created? I'm not saying it's a big deal, it is curious to me though.

[WaltWishbone]

What I was saying is me reposting it won't matter because some people have already convinced themselves that I'm scum, and others probably don't care one way or the other, and others actually see the truth. Reposting it now won't matter "since I've already had time to fabricate it now..."

My vote is not set in stone; as there are a few other things I am considering and it could change depending on the daytalk of the two other couples (BattleMage/Clock, Toaster/Adel replacement). But in the form it is in now; with omitted post and such, it does seem contrived.

[WaltWishbone]

armlx, what will be your excuse when I flip town? Going to just chalk it up to lazy townies or what? Let me in on the secret.

If you flip town, you would be an idiot for not claiming when and what you were supposed to. No pro-town player should ever do that, especially when there is not a massive potential loss associated with it.

Exactly, even if you thought it was a crap idea and did not believe it would help you find scum, I would think a pro-town player would give the other Townies an opportunity to use the information to present a case.

[WaltWishbone]

The daytalk thread of four people will be much different then the daytalk thread of two people because it will be fabricated. So the content as well as the little things, like days and times will show who has forged their daytalk and who has been honest.

Question, walt: how do you know that scum have four-way day-talk only?
AFAIR, that was never mentioned in the scum role PM that destructor provided a sample of.

It is in post number#2 of this thread.

.::] The Setup [::.

Lovers Multiball is a Nightless game. The end of each Day is immediately followed by the next. There is no Night phase.

16 players, in 8 pairs, received the following role PM:

Your role:

You are a

Townie

. You and

XXX

are Lovers and know the other is innocent. You cannot live without each other. If one of you dies, the other will commit suicide.

You may daytalk with your Lover here: [link to quicktopic]

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

Please confirm via PM by:

1. Naming your role name and Lover, if you have one; and
2. Naming which number the following rule is:

[random rule]

The game's thread is here: Open 86 - Lovers Multiball

4 players, in 2 pairs, received the following role PM:

Your role:

You are part of the

Mafia

with XXX, YYY and ZZZ. You and

ZZZ

are Lovers. You cannot live without each other. If one of you dies, the other will commit suicide.

You may daytalk with your team here: [link to quicktopic]

You win when the Mafia make the only living players or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Please confirm via PM by:

1. Naming your role name and Lover, if you have one; and
2. Naming which number the following rule is:

[random rule]

The game's thread is here: Open 86 - Lovers Multiball

4 players, in 2 pairs, received the following role PM:

Your role:

You are a

Werewolf

with XXX, YYY and ZZZ. You and

ZZZ

are Lovers. You cannot live without each other. If one of you dies, the other will commit suicide.

You may daytalk with your team here: [link to quicktopic]

You win when the Werewolves make the only living players or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Please confirm via PM by:

1. Naming your role name and Lover, if you have one; and
2. Naming which number the following rule is:

[random rule]

The game's thread is here: Open 86 - Lovers Multiball

[WaltWishbone]

Ha, well, when I do, promise to lynch armlx next. Though you guys will probably listen to his scum ideas and keep following him like a blind leper.

I doubt I will vote for Armix, but I will unvote you if your complete/revised daytalk does not seem contrived. My vote for you was not based on what Armix wrote alone, I thought you made a mistake when you complained about doing it in the first place. You and Ceph were who me and RR were referring to in posts 63, 64, and 65 of daytalk and considered a bit suspect during day one already.

BM + CWR are next on the list Ceph.

And... why not first?

I want to answer this as well because I think it's important to hear from BM/CW & TS/Ad(rep) before they are lynched. For all we know Clockwork decided after the exchange the other day to do the daytalk and something happened in real life. But more important, there may be a scumtell within the daytalk, once they both post I will explain more. To lynch them before they post their daytalk and not give them a chance to explain is a mistake in my opinion.

@Walt: When you paste it into excel the post number goes into a seperate column. When I cut it from the QT I didn't include the text of destructor's post, just heading part accidentally. that messed me up when I was cleaning up the formating later. I used Excel so I could wipe out all my real words in one column while keeping the names, dates and post numbers. Then I went back and put in the paraphrase with the QT open beside it. I messed with the formatting like I said, and I guess I messed the post# colum up by moving it up one, but I didn't go through and re-number. *shrug* make what you want of it.

I am familar with excel, how does the post number go into a seperate column? I don't know that function. In otherwords here is how it appears in daytalk.

sekinj 1 08-04-2008 12:40 AM ET (US) hello neko

The post number (1) is after the authors name (sekinji), so if you were to post it in cell a1; Sekinj would be first followed by #1. I don't see how a seperate column would be created? I'm not saying it's a big deal, it is curious to me though.

If you paste it into Excel it automatically puts things into seperate columns, that is why I used excel. Try it and you should see what I mean.
All the words were in one column, so I could just delete that whole column instead of manually deleting each line of real discussion. But, I apparently cut and/or pasted it wrong. To get everything one off, I would have had to renumber every single one of my posts, which I didn't do. I apparently just scooted the whole column down by one when I was tryign to fix the formatting (which was messed up with spacing and background graphics). I also moved the date over, and then sorted it by date so that it would end up oldest to newest. I really can't tell you exactly what went wrong because it was just a typing error.

I am working with a really old verion of Excel, it won't do that for me. If I try to paste a block of text into Excel, it automatically puts it ino cell A1. Everything else you wrote makes sense, I guess in the newer versions the program somehow knows how to seperate a block of text into rows and columns? I'll try to download a demo of a newer version. It's a pretty neat feature.

[WaltWishbone]

@Toaster - Are you going to post your daytalk?

[WaltWishbone]

How about, if you lynch armlx and he isn't scum, I will vote for myself. Should be easy to lynch me if armlx comes up town. What do you have to lose? Are you actually suggesting armlx and SP are the shining beacons of hope in our town? I hope not as they have done nothing useful the whole game (useful being trying to lynch scum).

What about this?

Once again, what faction do you believe armlx is in? What faction do you believe Crazy is in?

Or this?

Ha, well, when I do, promise to lynch armlx next.

I doubt I will vote for Armix, but I will unvote you if your complete/revised daytalk does not seem contrived

I had the impression you were going to post your daytalk. Why are you spending time trying to exchange votes instead of doing your daytalk? Are you going to answer SleepyPanda's question?

Did somebody slip crazy pills in my enchilada, or is BM not the most obvious lynch ever?

I really don't see a huge difference between BattleMage/Clock and Toaster/Ad(rep) other than Battle's shared the same tunnel vision with Charter in lynching Crazy. I actually tend to think Toaster and Adels vote hoping and many reckless wagons are worse.

Seriously, can those of you on the Charter wagon please explain how he is scummier than the guy who replaced into a role and refuses to paraphrase that role's daytalk until he's read the thread?

I have explained my reasons above; but briefly again there seemed to be a distinct connection between Charter/Cephrir and Fire/Ice on day one which turned to distancing then bussing. His tunnel vision on Crazy, who most believe is town. His refusal to answer question and diverting the conversation from the topic at hand with Armix. His pleas to emotion. Being the only player to object to posting daytalk, then posting two versions which are useless for analysis. Then stating that he would rather be lynched then post his daytalk. Clockworks refusal to post daytalk is scummy but not as scummy as Charter/Cephrirs refusal to fix theirs which should take no more then five to ten minutes if they are town. It is a much larger task for scum.

[WaltWishbone]

Hmmm, not liking the double standard armlx holds. It's a crime when I don't post times, but TS gets off scott free? Probably the beginning of his buddying up attempts to her as well...

Yeah, very good point.

@Toatser - can you please put the post number, times and dates in your daytalk. It's really easy, it will just take a few minutes. Just copy and paste your entire daytalk into a word program, then delte the real daytalk and replace it with the paraphrased daytalk.

[WaltWishbone]

Huge

FOS on crazy

You might as well have just hammered her.

I need to go read the daytalk again, with toaster flipping town at least two of them were contrived. It shouldn't be so tough to figure out whose were faked.

[WaltWishbone]

Wow, you are truly obtuse. I've tried saying this a bunch of times. NO ONE IN THIS GAME IS COMPLETELY INFORMED. NOT EVEN SCUM (ARMLX AND RR) KNOW WHO IS TOWN AND WHO ISNT. ONCE AGAIN, YOURE ATTACKING ME OVER NOTHING. I'm not doing anything scummy, I'm just pissed off and fed up with this game.

You and armlx need to modkill yourselves if I get lynched. There is no reason for you two to stay alive in this game. You have contributed nothing to help the town, and you will continue not contributing anything to help the town.

It is interesting how your entire suspect list is made up of people who voted for you; SP/Armix, me/RR, Darox, Crazy/KoC. Omgus much? There has been no case presented against Darox or myself/RR other than Toaster who, according to her daytalk was doing it to see who would hop on the bandwagon. So your great Town contribution is to lynch everyone who votes for you? What a unique strategy.

[WaltWishbone]

Total botch of that post, whatever. Please read it and at least consider it.

So, I shouldn't vote for you so you can try to get me and RR lynched tomorrow? We we are town, so keeping you around does nothing but waste the Town's time on a non-existent case and keeps the thread spammed with your emotional pleas and more BS rhetoric. You are making this decision really tough.

[WaltWishbone]

Remember Armix, he is no longer talking to you. Better watch out or he might hold his breath until he is blue in the face to get his point across that he is not scum.

[WaltWishbone]

I had been waiting and then I waited a little more. Now, I've seen enough and I voted. I think refusal to post daytalk is scummier than refusal to answer questions, although they are both very scummy. Obviously BM/CWR feel that just posting their daytalk might incriminte. While charter/ceph just did a bad job of it in the first place and are now still whining about it.

And obviously charter doesn't want to answer questions because he would incriminate himself.

You don't think a person who replaced in with some 60 odd pages would have less grasp of the game than someone who's been here from the start? I rather give CW the benefit of the doubt as he might not have fully understood the situation than lynch him when there could be a chance of error. You don't agree to this either, I assume?

I think we are really just arguing over whom to lynch first, which I really don't see the point of. I think both pairs are very scummy.
I just don't understand why BM/CWR couldn't just post daytalk, even if he hasn't read the game and even if he don't understand what is going on. Just cut and paste what is there and paraphrase, either that or if it is true, come out and say their predessor's had no daytalk, but to just be mute?? At first I WAS more suspicious of charter/ceph becuase they were active, but hadn't posted daytalk correctly. But after I saw that they HAD posted daytalk, BM inched ahead of them. I still don't have any sort of defense for charter/ceph, I just think not posting daytalk at all is a worse offense.

Are you really giving BM/CWR a free ride becuase they havn't posted daytalk? after your last comment I am very curious about exactly how scummy you think BM/CWR are.

I agree, however I really want to see BM's daytalk before he is lynched. For a few reason, first I wanna give him a small benefit of doubt, second reading the daytalk of others has been enlightening. there have been things that have not been posted in the game thread which I had not considered. Lastly, there is possibly a small scumtell which we won't get unless he posts his daytalk.

As far as Charter and Cephrir, I hate to say it but I am wavering a tad. I still have an extremely strong feeling they are the second set of werewolves and their defense has been non-sense, however their is a degree of honesty that is making me consider thing a little more carefully.

We do know at least two of the daytalks are fabricated. Looking through them a second time, the most contrived or "thin" seem to be.

Charter/Cephrir
SleepyPanda/Armix
ThAd/dbe

Obiviousley if BM/CW flip scum, then it would only be two of these three. Going back to the whole werewolves discussion, if we don't believe there was any bussing the only couples left who did not vote for Fire/Ice are;

SleepyPanda/Armix
Darox/Starrie

I am not sure what to make of any of this, these are really just random thoughts but somethings to consider. I am going to do one more read, before casting my vote.

[WaltWishbone]

BattleMage hasn't posted since Saturday and Clockwork Sunday.

Destructor, Can we please get a prod on BM, CW, & DBE.

[WaltWishbone]

Obiviousley if BM/CW flip scum, then it would only be two of these three. Going back to the whole werewolves discussion, if we don't believe there was any bussing the only couples left who did not vote for Fire/Ice are;

SleepyPanda/Armix
Darox/Starrie

You do realize my vote WAS on Fire Day 1? You continue to push this even though I've corrected you before. You also act as if daytalk is so immensely hard to fake. What armlx posted was the jist of our daytalk. In fact, we still haven't said anything in it since he posted it. I see no need to, and apparently he feels the same.

I haven't pushed it yet, I'm just not letting it go yet either.

[WaltWishbone]

Not letting what go? That my vote wasn't on Fire or Ice? Because that makes no sense at all, since it was.

I know you voted for Fire.

[WaltWishbone]

Not letting what go? That my vote wasn't on Fire or Ice? Because that makes no sense at all, since it was.

I know you voted for Fire.

Then I'm not understanding why you include my name for people who didn't vote Fire/ice.

It was a typo, it should have read people who did not vote for Iceman.

[WaltWishbone]

I fail to see the difference. If Fire had been lynched, then they both would have.

Like I wrote; I haven't made anything of it yet, it is something I considered. I am however curious if anybody else has anything to add or simply feel is should be dismissed.

[WaltWishbone]

I'd like to hear your reasons as to why you think charter isn't scum. This was all you said before

I can't coat it with catchphrase town tells. His frustration is totally genuine. I can sense it in every word. There's no other way to explain it, it's an emotional response.

Not to mention that the so-called case on him is complete and utter rubbish.

Cool, that means I'm town too, same situation, same reaction on a rubbish case which you admitted in your daytalk was only to start a wagon to catch mafia.

[WaltWishbone]

We do know at least two of the daytalks are fabricated. Looking through them a second time, the most contrived or "thin" seem to be.

WWB, I forgot to address this earlier, but why would thin be scummy? I discussed this in the last Polygamist (where I happened to be scum, but I was being legit about what I said): what do we really have to discuss in QT that's not better off in thread other then mentioning when an attack has secretive motives (ie baiting like the Adel/TS thing)?

And before Charter/Cephrir goes off on me for this, I'm attacking his day talk for reasons other then the content.

I'm not sure it is a scum tell of sort; however I would think it would take longer for daytalk to be contrived. The more detailed and longer, the more believable in my opinion. I am having second thoughts on the Charter/Cephrir lynch and I am curious if anyone has anything to add to my comments regarding the "thin" daytalk.

Daytalk is more comfortable and it reduces the noise to ratio aspect, RR is the only "confirmed" town in this game so I can ask him a question and get an honest answer without opinions which could contain an alterior motive. Another part of it is plotting to catch scum. So for instance I made the note above my daytalk that the last 10 to 15 posts were vague and this was because we were discussing Charter/Cephrir and what I felt was a mistake when they objected to post their daytalk. I did not want to include that because I was hoping that the other couples who had not commented on their feelings of posting DT would make the same mistake.

[WaltWishbone]

charter - *sigh*

DGB, you say you strongly think both charter and BM are town. If I were to think the two almost automatic lynch candidates were wrongly accused, I'd make a lot more of an effort to show why exactly. The way you seem content to just say empty stuff like "BM is huggable" makes it look like you're scum who's just out for townie credit if they turn town. If charter wasn't so very scummy I'd reconsider my vote, but anyways, a more coherent explanation would be nice at this point.

The only case against Charter is that he is getting frustrated by the votes on himself.

I want to hear what brought about your change of heart. What did DGB say to convince you? Because she hasn't said anything new since she replaced back in. You seemed so confident that charter was scum and now you are saying he's town? What are the reasons for voting charter before?

This is a good point, if she has more to offer that she is posting in daytalk I'd like to hear it. I am wavering, I could go either way right now on Charter/Cephrir and am hoping someone will post something that can push me in one direction or the other.

[WaltWishbone]

I've read enough, for all the reasons I have listed previosly, and he just wont let go of this OMGUS bs.

vote charter

[WaltWishbone]

1. What's BM's scuminess got to do with my own?

2. Doesn't his and CWR's refusal to post DT count for anything?

3. What makes you think the frustration in charter's tone can only come from townies?

4. In your daytalk, did you explain your reasoning more in detail and convinced Darox to follow your lead?
5. Why am I scum?
6. Why is armlx scum?
7. Why do you keep not explaining yourself?

Bolding mine.

Why do you like asking loaded questions?

What's loaded about them? Words "refusal" and "frustration" are clearly warranted here, I don't think even DGB would argue about that.

charter, have you ever even made a case against armlx and/or myself that isn't just repeating that we're scum ad-infinitum? Other than vote you, what do you actually think we've done that's scummy?

You are taking something DGB didn't say and asking her why she is saying it.

This is known as a

bad thing.

Gee Darox read much?

DGB, you say you strongly think both charter and BM are town. If I were to think the two almost automatic lynch candidates were wrongly accused, I'd make a lot more of an effort to show why exactly.

It's hard to see BM as scummy when you are so scummy yourself, RR. I am not as convinced of BM's towniness as I am of charter's. As for charter. It's a matter of tone. I read his reaction as town. Totally town.

She says it right here.

[WaltWishbone]

No, she says she finds Charters reaction town.
She doesn't say she thinks this reaction can only ever come from townies.

Nice try though.

But that is the question?

How is she so sure that it only means he is town?

How can you not understand that question?

[WaltWishbone]

She doesn't say she thinks this reaction can only ever come from townies.

What about his reaction would imply he is town then?

this

[WaltWishbone]

NEKO!!!! Hey sweetie.... I've missed you... you can catch up on the thread later... why don't you take a look at the daytalk... let's just say I know how to keep myself entertained....

Can we switch lovers Neko? You guys are swingers right?

Just kidding hunny bunny.

[WaltWishbone]

So actually today is really important, and I really want more input before the lynch... I mean it seems we are kinda set in our next two lynches, yeah?

Lynch
Charter/Cephrir
BattleMage/Clockwork

but what if neither flip scum?

That will leave...
Sekinji/Neko
WWB/RR
Darox/DGB
Armix/Sp
Crazy/KoC
TheAd/Dbe

I don't even know where to begin on who to supsect and we will be short townies! Especially with ThAd and dbe being useless. Waiting for a dbe replacement FUCKING sucks as she or he has to read 2000 plus posts...I wish she would be allowed to continue if she could?

unvote

Charter, the fact that you will note let go of your fucking OMGUS votes and are willing to vote for Battlemage just to keep you in the game, as sekinj pointed out is not townie play, but then again I wanted to do the same thing to Darox/DGB until RR lectured me in daytalk the other day...

So if you want my vote, I will give you 36 hours to honestly present a case against your top three suspects... Yes, you lazy idiot it means you will have to re-read and do some work. You have claimed this....

Scum
Armix/Sleepypanda
RR/WWB
Darox/DGB
Crazy/Koc
...and now you are willing to vote for...
BM/CW
...after stating that "the all mighty daytalk was crap"

Well Dude, only three of those five can be scum, so convince me.

[WaltWishbone]

Regarding DarlaBlueEyes' replacement, I have offered her the chance to continue playing but if I find a replacement before she accepts she will be replaced.

That's actually good, even though she has been scarce it is so much better then finding a replacement... Armix also commented, we active players (TOWNIES) to make a good vote...

ThAd - Why don't you buy that pretty girl a nice bouquet of flowers and get her to actually play? Give her one more chance?

[WaltWishbone]

EBWODP: We need more active Townies.

[WaltWishbone]

Regarding DarlaBlueEyes' replacement, I have offered her the chance to continue playing but if I find a replacement before she accepts she will be replaced.

That's actually good, even though she has been scarce it is so much better then finding a replacement... Armix also commented, we active players (TOWNIES) to make a good vote...

ThAd - Why don't you buy that pretty girl a nice bouquet of flowers and get her to actually play? Give her one more chance?

How is this good? I would very much prefer her to be replaced than her staying in the game and barely contributing.

Because it will take her replacememnt six days to read 2000 posts! Like Neko told you earlier Dude, who elected you MAYOR? She shoudl stay for the best of the town.

[WaltWishbone]

@Slepypanda - why don't you want someone familar with the game, who has read teh post who may potenitally be town and have an idea who scum is to continue in the game? Just because she did not contribute because she was hit by two hurricanes? And had two posts lost due to the CPU rpoblem here on MS? Do you really want to wait 6 days for a replacement when your partenr Armix contradicts your feelings on this matter by stating he is upset that we do not have enough townies here to vote?

[WaltWishbone]

Who are you? The opinion police? I can't give my opinion anymore? She reached 3 prods, she should be replaced. In the 5 days that we played, how much has she contributed? How many times did she vote? Like 2 times? Yeah, let's keep an inactive player than replace with someone who will actually participate.

Who the fuck are you? No she should not be replaced assshole!

[WaltWishbone]

rofl, you Aare fun to pooky like a little panda should be.

[WaltWishbone]

EBWODP: rofl, you are fun to poke like a little sleepy panda should be.

Facts are facts - go have a daytalk with Armix if you disagree.

[WaltWishbone]

@Slepypanda - why don't you want someone familar with the game, who has read teh post who may potenitally be town and have an idea who scum is to continue in the game?

Wow, what do all these assumptions for? How do they help? DBE MAY potentially be scum also. She MAY be town and just plain useless. Tell me why you prefer someone who doesn't participate to stay in the game instead of having replacement who will. Having someone familiar isn't a reason.

Just because she did not contribute because she was hit by two hurricanes? And had two posts lost due to the CPU rpoblem here on MS? Do you really want to wait 6 days for a replacement when your partenr Armix contradicts your feelings on this matter by stating he is upset that we do not have enough townies here to vote?

Yeah, so she was hit by two hurricanes. Sure, I hope she's ok and all, but we're playing a game here. If she can't contribute due to real life problems, then the best thing to do would be to give up her spot so that someone who CAN contribute can take over.

She had two post, which was supposedly the two largest posts she made in the entire game, and coincidentally, both times it failed to post. And for some reason, she never felt the need to rewrite the simplest explanation for why she was voting so.

Where does armlx say that there are not enough townies voting? Where does armlx say that he doesn't want DBE replaced? I don't need to daytalk with armlx. He can have his own opinions. I'm not the opinion police like you, you bully.

Facts are facts - go have a daytalk with Armix if you disagree.

What are these facts you speak of?

And at the point, do you think DBE/ThAdmiral to be scum or town? I'd like cited reasons as well please.

Dude, I don't want someone to read 2000 posts and join the game... "And no one answer his other genius like questions"

[WaltWishbone]

EBWOP: fixing grammar errors from previous post. too sleepy.

Wow, what do

are

all these assumptions for?

And at

this

point,

In the 83 pages we've played so far, DBE has only contributed about 1/2 of ONE page. That's not even 1%.

Dude, quit trying to suck me into your bullshit wifom....

I dont want her replaced, I dont want someone to read 2000 posts before voting, when she already has...you who are perhaps scum want a rookie in that you think you can pull into the same type of virtual biggest "E-Penis" game with me, but you better bet your ass you two will lose against me! I ain't Charter!

[WaltWishbone]

[quote="WWB]Dude, I don't want someone to read 2000 posts and join the game... "And no one answer his other genius like questions"

If someone is willing to replace in, I'm sure they'd have notice that the game was already at 83 pages. I also assume since they're willing to replace in, it means that they're willing to read through.

Tell me whether you think DBE is town or scum. You don't even have enough information to make that judgement call.[/quote][/quote]

Neither do you Pal, do a better job on your qoutes, seriouesley, it bad.

[WaltWishbone]

Dude, quit trying to suck me into your bullshit wifom....

I dont want her replaced, I dont want someone to read 2000 posts before voting, when she already has...

Tell me how you know she has even read through all the posts. DBE last post was 9/19, which is around page 65. 19 total posts, 65 pages. That's about one post every 4 pages. She doesn't even touch on all the topics at the time of her postings.

The vote count is 6-3. One vote won't change anything. You're also voting charter. What does someone having to read 2000 posts have to do anything with their vote? How much will that one vote effect? Will DBE even vote before deadline?

you who are perhaps scum want a rookie in that you think you can pull into the same type of virtual biggest "E-Penis" game with me, but you better bet your ass you two will lose against me! I ain't Charter!

If I was scum, I'd probably prefer someone who is not contributing. How much harm can a lurker do? And what are you going on about here? I'm voting charter because I think he's scum. You go play with your penises all you want.

I am gonna do the "sleepy panda" at this point...that has been a new dance created by you and Armix that is the WIFOM of the fucking century against Armix....

Dude, dbe should stay if she wants and the rest of the town agrees, end of convo, 1 vote yes, you 1 idiot votes no.

so tis a tie so far.

[WaltWishbone]

I am gonna do the "sleepy panda" at this point...that has been a new dance created by you and Armix that is the WIFOM of the fucking century against Armix....

Why do you keep saying WIFOM when I talk about DBE's posting activity? Has she not posted only 19 times? Has she not posted less than 1 page? It's not WIFOM. It's fact.

Dude, dbe should stay if she wants and the rest of the town agrees, end of convo, 1 vote yes, you 1 idiot votes no. Wink

so tis a tie so far. Wink

Says the person who criticizes me for messing up quotes while doing the same thing in the same post. Only person who has said they wanted DBE to stay in the game so far: you. Since when do you make up the rest of town?

I yi yi, I'm sorry, I missed something in this game...does getting the last post mean you win? Does it mean you can twist my question of who elceted you mayor to my questions?

I thought we were suppossed to lynch scum, right....

Are we on the same team or not, because if you are scum, I'll lynch you right now!

[WaltWishbone]

I am gonna do the "sleepy panda" at this point...that has been a new dance created by you and Armix that is the WIFOM of the fucking century against Armix....

Why do you keep saying WIFOM when I talk about DBE's posting activity? Has she not posted only 19 times? Has she not posted less than 1 page? It's not WIFOM. It's fact.

Dude, dbe should stay if she wants and the rest of the town agrees, end of convo, 1 vote yes, you 1 idiot votes no. Wink

so tis a tie so far. Wink

Says the person who criticizes me for messing up quotes while doing the same thing in the same post. Only person who has said they wanted DBE to stay in the game so far: you. Since when do you make up the rest of town?

...and I did not mess up my qoutes, I did not change yours which you fucked up? I could have fixed them when i copy and pasted but that would not have made the point.

[WaltWishbone]

You're the only one playing a completely different game what with your penis games, your last post games.

dbe should stay if she wants and the rest of the town agrees,

Show me who else has said they want DBE to stay in the game. It's only been you if I'm correct.

rofl, are you stupid?

Me and you have been the only two who have posted since then so how could someone else post an opionion?

[WaltWishbone]

OH, WOOT, I SEE..............

[WaltWishbone]

You're the only one playing a completely different game what with your penis games, your last post games.

dbe should stay if she wants and the rest of the town agrees,

Show me who else has said they want DBE to stay in the game. It's only been you if I'm correct.

You were confussed by this post when I stated "dbe should stay if she wants and the rest of the town agrees" with um.....with what exactlky?

You and me are the only ones posting the rest of the town need to sign on and join the discussion!

[WaltWishbone]

You're the one who is saying "the rest of town agrees". Who are you referring to?

I'm not even responding anymore. This is completely pointless.

VOTE: Armix

Don't EVER lie in a game and misqoute me again!

[WaltWishbone]

You're the only one playing a completely different game what with your penis games, your last post games.

dbe should stay if she wants and the rest of the town agrees,

Show me who else has said they want DBE to stay in the game. It's only been you if I'm correct.

You were confussed by this post when I stated "dbe should stay if she wants and the rest of the town agrees" with um.....with what exactlky?

You and me are the only ones posting the rest of the town need to sign on and join the discussion!

This is what I wrote, dbe should stay if the rest of the town agrees - Sleepy pandas definition of this is I have spoke for the town which I did not! He is scum! Charter has been right all along in my humble opinion.

[WaltWishbone]

Please excuse me whilst my brain quietly haemorrages.
You two... can it. If DBE comes back, then she should be on 1 prod remaining - if she is inactive again, we replace her. Destructor might find a replacement before she returns anyway, so maybe wait until it's decided before you have a page-long bitch about it?

I agreee with you Sir, wish you would have posted earlier.

[WaltWishbone]

...and

unvote

. I need to reread this tomorrow and talk to my hunny bunny before shoving a foot completely up Armix and Sleepypandas ass. .

[WaltWishbone]

This is what I wrote, dbe should stay if the rest of the town agrees - Sleepy pandas definition of this is I have spoke for the town which I did not! He is scum! Charter has been right all along in my humble opinion.

You need an english lesson. That is not what you originally said.

Oh, and nice attempt to try to strawman.

Ding ding, round two..... an English lesson? oh wow please enlighten me Ghandi! I worte "if dbe wants to continue and the rest of the town agrees she should be allowed...or something like that? it means the same thing?

You keep posting to seem to try to get sympathy to your cause but only one other Townies has replkied KOC and he is on my side? Where do you think the rest will stand? dbe stays if the rest of teh town agrees.

[WaltWishbone]

VOTE: Armix

DGB/Darox, BM/CW if you wanted your shot at saving Charter/Cephrir it is right now and only now...

...you know as far as I am concrened neko/sekinj are my top town reads, there has been no case whatsoever, this entire game presnted against them.... why do you Sleepypanda and Armix keep insiting there is? Give me one tangible fucking fact and I might change my vote.

[WaltWishbone]

Except it's the mod's call. I'd be willing to have DBE back, but would want her on 1 strike and out.

agreed

[WaltWishbone]

Vote: WaltWishbone

I've found some scum guys!

rofl, and how did you do that tiger?

[WaltWishbone]

DAROX - do you want charter/cephrir lynched without a debate...

Hmm, who won last night Palin or Biden?

[WaltWishbone]

you have no clue, i bet.

[WaltWishbone]

so Detox just posted in Little Italy but is he gonna post here? nah, tis his mo. rofl.

[WaltWishbone]

Wow... What time zone are you guys in? I was asleep that whole time...

There are two scenerios according to the mod:

1. DBE comes back
2. another player agrees to replace

whichever occurs

first

will be the one the mod goes with. I don't see how that choice is A) up to the town (as WW implied) or B) condoning inactive players (as SP implied).

Yesh she is absolutely right, but that was so much more fun then waiting six days fr a lynch.....

unvote

I will talk to my hunny bunny loater and vote...

[WaltWishbone]

Right, sorry about the delay.

Post 1: Mod welcomes EA and SSF to quicktopic.
Post 2: EA says he recieved the link, and asks where SSF is.
Post 3: SSF says hello, and claims that secret scumtell is probably fabricated.
Post 4: EA bollocks SSF for acting scummy.
Post 5: Mod announces that I'm replacing SSF.
Post 6: I say hi, and comment on what i'd read so far. Finding Adel scummy at this point.
Post 7: I ask whether we have claimed yet.
Post 8: I request prod on EA.
Post 9: I rant aggressively about him not talking to me.
Post 10: Mod announces ClockworkRuse is replacing EA.
Post 11: ClockworkRuse asks me for help catching up, rather than reading 60 pages.
Post 12: Clockworkruse asks where i am.
Post 13: Clockworkruse gets angry at me.
Post 14: I come back and bitch about him criticising my activity (this was after he dropped off the face of the earth)
Post 15: I ask why he hasnt been replaced yet.

That's it. Exciting stuff eh? -.-

Will catch up later.

BM

Times and days please BM.

[WaltWishbone]

BM - is that it? really?

yes. Thats why i had to get the mod to send me a link to it lol. After a certain point, i just gave up checking it.

Can i quote the times and dates in their current format?

BM

imo, in anyway, I have a possible scum tell... but i'm not sure if it is that big a deal, but i'd like to point it out to see if any one has anything to add.

[WaltWishbone]

I think I know what the tell is, Walt. Do you mind if I say it first to see if we're thinking along the same lines?

Absolutely, as soon as BM posts. RR was not too impressed, but to me its something. I hope people can add to it, even though I was all over the place yesterday and really trying to push buttons, I did mean what I first posted. I don't want to have a bad lynch.

[WaltWishbone]

absolutely, go for it

[WaltWishbone]

@WWB, if you still want to argue about the english lesson, go ask RR. I'm sure he can explain it to you. Or I probably will when I make a formal case on you soon.

Dude, that page was the funniest page of the thread, imo and there was little to no coherent or intellectual thought, it was a pissing contest over semantics. The comment reads clear to me and if it did not read clear to you at first then I hope with my explanation you now understand. I was asking a question, however as a few people have pointed out our opinions are irrelevant. It is the Moderators decision which is great.

VOTE: Armix

DGB/Darox, BM/CW if you wanted your shot at saving Charter/Cephrir it is right now and only now...

Wow, if this isn't blatent buddying up, I don't know what is. Why are you only addressing Darox and BM couples when there are other couples you don't even mention?

You want to "save" charter now? Do you think he's town all of a sudden?

No, I want to give them a chance if they are town. I do have have a doubt. I am not sure how positive we can be that anyone is scum and I think the Iceman case was just really good research by Adel and I doubt we will have that kinda luck again. I kinda borrowed from DGB/Adel in that approach, I wanted to see what happened, if these people jumped on your wagon and they didn't. It's not a complete town tell but it helps bring credibility to their defense. I still have Charter/Cephrir and Battlemage/Cw at the top of my LoS but we have six days until the deadline so I don't thin its a bad idea to explore other cases.

...you know as far as I am concrened neko/sekinj are my top town reads, there has been no case whatsoever, this entire game presnted against them.... why do you Sleepypanda and Armix keep insiting there is? Give me one tangible fucking fact and I might change my vote.

I find this very interesting. Why do you bring this out of the blue? I don't recall armlx ever mentioning them as suspicious, but I did. You also fail to address the context in which I believe they are scum. I said they are most likely charter's scumbuddies. Go back and look at interactions between every pair and charter/Cephrir. The only two couples who do not attack charter/Ceph quite visibly, or at all, are ThAdmiral/DBE and neko/sekinj. I was role fishing when I continually called neko scum. I wanted to see how'd they react. In fact, I think I made a mistake somwhere. WWB/RR and neko/sekinj seems more likely to be a mafia pair than charter/neko. Charter is probably the final WW pair.

With WWB's erratic posting, constant voting and unvoting, attempts of buddying, strawmanning, it's a whole plethora of scumtells. I still need to reread and get my thoughts straight though.

I need to re-read their interactions with Sek/Neko and Thead/dbe, I didn't notice anything odd but I will take a look. Fishing makes sense, I think we all do it to a degree and as I explained above I did a bit myself last night. As far as your points, like I wrote I don't think its a bad thing to make cases even if it's against myself and RR. I am far from buddying up to Charter, I've been on them for a few weeks. Strawmanning, voting and unvoting was comical, in the end after talking with RR in daytalk I do believe my vote will land on Charter/Cephrir but I really wanted to give them one last chance. We are running out of townies and I think it's in our best interest to be conservative.

[WaltWishbone]

Okay, here's what I'm thinking: why did BM need to be sent teh link by the mod? As a town replacement, I was sent the link to mine and Crazy's daytalk as soon as I replaced in, and bookmarked it to make sure. Was there some discontinuity between scum and town PMs, in that scum were sent TWO daytalk links - one for team, and one for their lover and them alone?

This may be different to your idea, Walt, but this intrigues me.

That is interesting, I thought about that when he made the comment. In the roll pm on page one, it specifies one daytalk forum for four people, but that doesnt mean there wasn't a second. My tell is different, it has to to with days and times, so I need to see BM's before revealing what it is or else it will give it away.

[WaltWishbone]

It is explained in the set-up, that there would be daytalk provided for the 2 scum groups and the 8 lover couples. The original set-up did not include daytalk as it was added after the game had been created.

.::] The Setup [::.

Lovers Multiball is a Nightless game. The end of each Day is immediately followed by the next. There is no Night phase.

16 players, in 8 pairs, received the following role PM:

Your role:

You are a

Townie

. You and

XXX

are Lovers and know the other is innocent. You cannot live without each other. If one of you dies, the other will commit suicide.

You may daytalk with your Lover here: [link to quicktopic]

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

Please confirm via PM by:

1. Naming your role name and Lover, if you have one; and
2. Naming which number the following rule is:

[random rule]

The game's thread is here: Open 86 - Lovers Multiball

4 players, in 2 pairs, received the following role PM:

Your role:

You are part of the

Mafia

with XXX, YYY and ZZZ. You and

ZZZ

are Lovers. You cannot live without each other. If one of you dies, the other will commit suicide.

You may daytalk with your team here: [link to quicktopic]

You win when the Mafia make the only living players or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Please confirm via PM by:

1. Naming your role name and Lover, if you have one; and
2. Naming which number the following rule is:

[random rule]

The game's thread is here: Open 86 - Lovers Multiball

4 players, in 2 pairs, received the following role PM:

Your role:

You are a

Werewolf

with XXX, YYY and ZZZ. You and

ZZZ

are Lovers. You cannot live without each other. If one of you dies, the other will commit suicide.

You may daytalk with your team here: [link to quicktopic]

You win when the Werewolves make the only living players or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Please confirm via PM by:

1. Naming your role name and Lover, if you have one; and
2. Naming which number the following rule is:

[random rule]

The game's thread is here: Open 86 - Lovers Multiball

On Sunday the 3rd at 9:35pm, it is announced that daytalking has been added to the set-up and links are being sent to each player. It

seems

to me that the set-up was intended to have a forum for the scum teams from the start and the forums for the town was added afterward.

I've added daytalking to the setup and will be PMing everyone links to quicktopics.

Also, note that I've amended rules 1 and 12.

The one thing we all share; scum and town is we each got an introduction post in the daytalk thread from destructor. The times would be the same for scum and town alike in their individual threads. According to the posted daytalk, the following times were given for the introduction post.

9:42pm - Sekinji/Neko & BattleMage/Clockwork
9:45pm - Armix/Sleepypanda & ?
10:07pm - crazy/KoC, Darox/DGB, ThAd/dbe, Charter/Cephrir, & WWB/RR

Unknown - Fire/Ice, Alaba.Kloud, Harvey/Cerebu, Adel & TS

*This is why I asked for your times DGB

So, doesn't it make sense that the scum groups were created before the town groups were created as they were an after thought in the original set-up? Doesn't it make sense that all the town daytalk groups were created at once?

Obviosuley having Fire/Ice times would be really helpful so I'm not sure how much good this does. I really would like to hear input from other players. I'm not sure this is such a scumtell as it helps provide leads, if that makes any sense. In otherwords, if Battlemage is lynched and flips scum, I would want to take a long look at Sekinji/Neko; are they bussing BM/CW?

I have Sekinj/Neko at the top of my town list, the only thing that I have found odd about them is the way their daytalk was numbered, which she explained well I thought. However as sleepypanda pointed out the other day; he has seen connections in their interactions which I'd like to read again if Battlemage was to flip.

Despite our exchange the other day, I still have sleepypanda/Armix near the top of my town list and RR has them in his top two town reads. However I do want to go read all their interactions with Fire and Ice again.

You know I just don't know about a Charter/Cephrir lynch and the fact that Charter has me and RR pegged as scum is making it really tough because we are not going to catch scum if they are trying to get us lynched. I am convinced the best lynch is either Battlemage/CW or Charter/Cephrir, just not sure which. I would like to hear what everyone thinks of this post and I am going to do one last read before voting.

Again, I don't think this is a "know-all-scum tell", but I do think it points us in a direction at least. Esepcially if BM/CW are lynched and flip scum.

[WaltWishbone]

@WWB, if you still want to argue about the english lesson, go ask RR. I'm sure he can explain it to you. Or I probably will when I make a formal case on you soon.

Dude, that page was the funniest page of the thread, imo and there was little to no coherent or intellectual thought, it was a pissing contest over semantics. The comment reads clear to me and if it did not read clear to you at first then I hope with my explanation you now understand.

I know what you were saying when you actually rephrased it so it actually made sense the way you meant it to be. I don't buy that it was just a pissing contest. You weren't testing to see if we were possible scum. You seemed to have been legitamately trying to convince others to vote armlx. To me, it seemed like you were trying to see what you could get away with. When no one agreed with you, or you discussed it with your lover(s), you gave up and started restating that you think charter and BM are scum.

It was indeed part of a test, maybe fishing is a better word, but I am very careful with my votes even under the infleunce, I didn't nor wouldn't walk away leaving a vote that could potentially get a townie hung. That's the problem with that strategy in my opinion, if I would have left that vote and gone away for 48 hours, I could have come back to see you lynched which would have been wrong in my opinion. However on the other hand, it doesnt give the players I suspected enough time to join the wagon, so it was a weak attempt on my part.

I need to re-read their interactions with Sek/Neko and Thead/dbe, I didn't notice anything odd but I will take a look.

That's exactly the point. Almost no other people (that is alive) besides me, or RR, have tried pressuring Th/DBE, which shouldn't be, when they've been practically lurking the entire game.

Good point, I'm not sure where to begin to instigate a conversation with them at this point. ThAd's replies to questions are pretty short and brief, but I meant what I wrote it's not a bad thing to get everyone who has not been in the limelight involved. Including; ThAd/dbe, Neko/Seki, Dar/DGB, etc...

I was asking a question, however as a few people have pointed out our opinions are irrelevant. It is the Moderators decision which is great.

Our opinions on DBE being replaced are not irrelevant. DBE is still posting at other games, EXCEPT THIS ONE. It's either active lurking or being useless. Neither benefits town. The only way it can possibly help town is if she is actually scum. One pair with both players having little to no contribution. If we go to LYLO, I DO NOT want them to be one of the other pairs.

I think they are irrelevent, I got the feeling from ThAd's post that she is not rejoining anyway, so we need to wait until they find a replacement and they read all 83 pages. Which suck, I imagine her spot won't be filled and caught up reading for another 3 weeks if not much longer.

[WaltWishbone]

Vote: WaltWishbone

I've found some scum guys!

No, you haven't.

WWB is a genious. There is the proof of scum from daytalking, not me and ceph.
This is destructor's first post time for our thread. I imagine all town's is the same (give or take a few minutes) 08-03-2008 10:07 PM ET (US).

Thanks, but I tend to agree with Armix for the most part. I don't think it's that cut and dry a scumtell, I think we need more connections to build a case as convincing as the one Adel built against Ice in my opinion.

I am leaning towards a BM/CW lynch at this point and think it could be a huge mistake to lynch you and Cephrir. If you are town, that would only leave 8 townies. I think the town would be in trouble if the 8 are within a group that contains the following.

wwb/rr
Dar/Dgb
crazy/koc
thead/dbe
Sleepypand/Armix

As far as I can gauge more townies are on the top of each others supsect list then scum; ThAd is trying to lynch crazy/KoC, Darox is trying to lynch me and RR, etc... If wagons start to form, all the scum really need to do is sit back and let the Townies lynch each other.

I still have some reading to do, and want to hear back from RR in daytalk, as well as get more opinions here on the "scum/town tell". I really do hope every Townie is taking a look at this vote carefully. I do think it is the most important of the game and we can't afford a bad lynch.

[WaltWishbone]

VOTE: BattleMage

For the last few weeks, there have not been any tangible and/or reasonable "scum" cases other than Charter/Cephrir and Battlemage/CW presented within this game in my opinion. I am starting to agree that Charter/Ceprir's reaction is more likely to be fustrated townie then scum. I still have questions however, I do not think they are a good lynch. I think if you connect the dots; Battlemage is the best lynch today. His relentless pursuit of crazy is odd to say the least, the fact that he took so long to present his daytalk and yet it still seems contrived as well as thin. He has been quite clearly an active lurker, barely avoiding prods and contribuitng little to the scumhunt. I am not completely convinced they are mafia partners with Sekinj/Neko, but I do feel they are the most likely scum.

[WaltWishbone]

VOTE: BattleMage

For the last few weeks, there have not been any tangible and/or reasonable "scum" cases other than Charter/Cephrir and Battlemage/CW presented within this game in my opinion. I am starting to agree that Charter/Ceprir's reaction is more likely to be fustrated townie then scum. I still have questions however, I do not think they are a good lynch. I think if you connect the dots; Battlemage is the best lynch today. His relentless pursuit of crazy is odd to say the least, the fact that he took so long to present his daytalk and yet it still seems contrived as well as thin. He has been quite clearly an active lurker, barely avoiding prods and contribuitng little to the scumhunt. I am not completely convinced they are mafia partners with Sekinj/Neko, but I do feel they are the most likely scum.

I like how almost all your decisions are affected by the mod's daytalk time even though you say this,

Thanks, but I tend to agree with Armix for the most part. I don't think it's that cut and dry a scumtell, I think we need more connections to build a case as convincing as the one Adel built against Ice in my opinion.

I just spent the last hour re-reading and the evidence is stacked against BM/CW if you connect the dots and in my opinion it is the right lynch. I could elaborate more and will after others contribute, but I have spent far too much time on this game today already and have made my thought process known by posting in the thread as the day has progressed.

[WaltWishbone]

I can honestly say I hope we didn't just catch all the scum. 'Cause that would be a really lame way for the game to end. Shrug.

I think the game is far from over, Sekinj/Neko are my top town read and I am not just going to vote for them on times alone.

[WaltWishbone]

Adding a little more reasoning and further explanation to my previous post on why I feel BM/CW is the best lynch "today".

VOTE: BattleMage

For the last few weeks, there have not been any tangible and/or reasonable "scum" cases other than Charter/Cephrir and Battlemage/CW presented within this game in my opinion. I am starting to agree that Charter/Ceprir's reaction is more likely to be fustrated townie then scum. I still have questions however, I do not think they are a good lynch. I think if you connect the dots; Battlemage is the best lynch today. His relentless pursuit of crazy is odd to say the least, the fact that he took so long to present his daytalk and yet it still seems contrived as well as thin. He has been quite clearly an active lurker, barely avoiding prods and contribuitng little to the scumhunt. I am not completely convinced they are mafia partners with Sekinj/Neko, but I do feel they are the most likely scum.

I like how almost all your decisions are affected by the mod's daytalk time even though you say this,

Thanks, but I tend to agree with Armix for the most part. I don't think it's that cut and dry a scumtell, I think we need more connections to build a case as convincing as the one Adel built against Ice in my opinion.

I just spent the last hour re-reading and the evidence is stacked against BM/CW if you connect the dots and in my opinion it is the right lynch. I could elaborate more and will after others contribute, but I have spent far too much time on this game today already and have made my thought process known by posting in the thread as the day has progressed.

First and foremost; I want to reiterate I think the "daytalk times" send us in a good direction to create a discussion and search for scum, however I think a case needs to be made against any "suspect" if we want to have a responsible lynch. I think this is a critical point in the game and we should be very careful in our choices. I think we need to "connect the dots" and build a good case before anyone else gets lynched.

I think most people would agree the only two cases presented the last few weeks with any kind of merit have been against BM/CW and Charter/Cephrir. It has been stated by several people, one of the main reasons for both wagons has been their reluctance in posting daytalk. Although Charter/Cephrir did take quite some time to post and did so in a manner that was difficult for everyone to read, as well as seeming contrived due to the way it was presented; after re-reading it does contain more substance then I originally believed. It is difficult to gauge with complete certainty; but their reactions to their wagon can come across as frustrated "townie", as much or more so then suspected "scum". I am not ready to declare them town by any means, however I do think they deserve a benefit of the doubt.

The points against BM/CW are much stronger in many ways; their reluctance to post daytalk has driven them farther into the lurker tree, barely avoiding prods as oppossed to arguing the issues and fighting against what they believe is an injustice. It is a very different reaction, perhaps even unusual then that of Charter/Cephrir. Their daytalk is also extremely thin and does not seem to match that of the game thread in many cases.

*I added the times to BM/CW daytalk

Post 1: 08-03-2008 09:42 PM ET (US)
- Post 1: Mod welcomes EA and SSF to quicktopic.
Post 2: 08-06-2008 01:41 AM ET (US)
- Post 2: EA says he recieved the link, and asks where SSF is.

Who is EA asking about SSF? It seems odd he would ask the Moderator here three days later, so is he talking to his scum partners?

Post 3: 08-08-2008 10:44 AM ET (US)
- Post 3: SSF says hello, and claims that secret scumtell is probably fabricated.
Post 4: 08-20-2008 12:18 AM ET (US)
- Post 4: EA bollocks SSF for acting scummy.

I went back and re-read the game thread but I really don't see any reason for EA to ask SSF why he is acting scummy? Also, what do they have to worry about if they are not scum?

Post 5: 08-29-2008 12:13 AM ET (US)
- Post 5: Mod announces that I'm replacing SSF.
Post 6: 08-29-2008 09:16 AM ET (US)
- Post 6: I say hi, and comment on what i'd read so far. Finding Adel scummy at this point.
Post 7: 08-29-2008 10:31 AM ET (US)
- Post 7: I ask whether we have claimed yet.

There is something odd about the fact, a little under 1/4 of his posts on 8/28 come before he is even replaced into the game.

Post 8: 08-30-2008 01:19 PM ET (US)
- Post 8: I request prod on EA.
Post 9: 08-31-2008 11:01 AM ET (US)
- Post 9: I rant aggressively about him not talking to me.
Post 10: 09-11-2008 11:48 PM ET (US) (by this point, i'd long lost the link to the QT)
- Post 10: Mod announces ClockworkRuse is replacing EA.
Post 11: 09-16-2008 09:41 PM ET (US
- Post 11: ClockworkRuse asks me for help catching up, rather than reading 60 pages.

This seems to completely contradict this.

Clockwork, could you take a break from rereading and paraphrase your daytalk?

I'd really rather finish reading, I haven't really said anything to BM yet anyways and I've barely looked over the day talk. I'm more focused on forming my own opinions on the game first. He should be able to do it as I'm reading though.

Clockwork wrote this on Sept. 21, 2008 and seems to imply that he wants to read the entire thread and form his

own

opinions, however in daytalk he asks Battlemage and probably "his partners" to do it for him? Clockwork also states that he hasn't really spoken to BM nor read daytalk, however clearly he has seen the daytalk and posted there. It also comes across to me that clockwork feels the daytalk is lengthy, however there are only 11 posts at that point.

Post 12: 09-22-2008 09:39 PM ET (US)
- Post 12: Clockworkruse asks where i am.
Post 13: 09-25-2008 12:06 PM ET (US)
- Post 13: Clockworkruse gets angry at me.
Post 14: 10-01-2008 03:58 AM ET (US)
- Post 14: I come back and bitch about him criticising my activity (this was after he dropped off the face of the earth)
Post 15: 10-04-2008 09:59 AM ET (US)
- Post 15: I ask why he hasnt been replaced yet.

I would think at that point as they both started to collect votes and draw supsicion there would be some type of discussion or at least a question on who is going to do the daytalk. At the very least, why didn't clockwork just post daytalk as oppossed to allowing the supsicion to continue to grow and obviosuley try to stall the town?

There are a few more things; others have mentioned and I commented on briefly in my previous post. There has been quite a bit of discussion whether crazy is "confirmed" town or not, however it seems most everyone agrees since his wagon on day one, he has been extremely "pro-town". There has not been a further case presented on him with any substance and BM's crusade against him comes across as a ploy to remain "consistent" and/or trying to eliminate the closest person we have to "confirmed" town. BM has not contributed to any type of scum hunting or fishing/baiting to try to help find scum other then trying to get crazy lynched. If you go back and read their voting patterns, their predecessors EA/SSF both consistently wagoned with little to no reasoning or contribution; nothing more then a "lets hang anyone" attitude. If you "connect the dots", I really feel strongly BM/CW is the best lynch today.

[WaltWishbone]

I can honestly say I hope we didn't just catch all the scum. 'Cause that would be a really lame way for the game to end. Shrug.

I think the game is far from over, Sekinj/Neko are my top town read and I am not just going to vote for them on times alone.

If BM turns up scum, especially mafia scum, I am. I've had trouble with reading Sekinj/Neko this game, since Neko has been my top town read and Sekinj has been my top scum read... so they've ended up near the middle this whole time. Huh.

I actually find Sekinj slightly less supsect, however I find neither really scummy. How come Sekinj is your top scum read?

@Armix - lol, great link.

[WaltWishbone]

Who is EA asking about SSF? It seems odd he would ask the Moderator here three days later, so is he talking to his scum partners?

Why is this odd? To me, after 3 days of his lover not saying anything, EA was unsure whether or not SSF had gotten the daytalk topic and was asking for clarification. If you look at SSF's post in this game, he has made posts on 8-04. If he was posting in game on the 4th, and does not post in the daytalk all the way until 8-06, would that not be a valid question to ask?

It is reads to me like he is talking to "partners".

- Post 4: EA bollocks SSF for acting scummy.

This is valid. But then again, charter and Ceph have done the same thing. Ceph was advising charter to not push too hard for (someone's, if forget who) lynch or else it will seem like OMGUS, if I recall.

I could not find him doing anything scummy that warrants that question being asked in the first place. It seems to contradict the game thread and seems contrived.

There is something odd about the fact, a little under 1/4 of his posts on 8/28 come before he is even replaced into the game.

I don't quite understand this. Can you rephrase it?

He claims not to have been welcomed into the daytalk thread until 8/29, however he is clearly posting in the game thread on 8/28. I am making two points here; one that he has not posted/contibuted much this whole game (sarcasm) and many of his post come on the 28th before he was even in the game. Secondly, in daytalk he is not even added to the game until the 29th.

Post 8: 08-30-2008 01:19 PM ET (US)
- Post 8: I request prod on EA.
Post 9: 08-31-2008 11:01 AM ET (US)
- Post 9: I rant aggressively about him not talking to me.
Post 10: 09-11-2008 11:48 PM ET (US) (by this point, i'd long lost the link to the QT)
- Post 10: Mod announces ClockworkRuse is replacing EA.
Post 11: 09-16-2008 09:41 PM ET (US
- Post 11: ClockworkRuse asks me for help catching up, rather than reading 60 pages.

This seems to completely contradict this.

Clockwork, could you take a break from rereading and paraphrase your daytalk?

I'd really rather finish reading, I haven't really said anything to BM yet anyways and I've barely looked over the day talk. I'm more focused on forming my own opinions on the game first. He should be able to do it as I'm reading though.

Clockwork wrote this on Sept. 21, 2008 and seems to imply that he wants to read the entire thread and form his

own

opinions, however in daytalk he asks Battlemage and probably "his partners" to do it for him? Clockwork also states that he hasn't really spoken to BM nor read daytalk, however clearly he has seen the daytalk and posted there. It also comes across to me that clockwork feels the daytalk is lengthy, however there are only 11 posts at that point.

You seem to be reaching. Can this not also be explained if CW asked for BM's help at 9-17, post 11 in daytalk, and after BM has not responded in the daytalk, he thus has to reread all pages on his own, which would explain his response to RR? Where do you get that he has not read daytalk when in the same post you're quoting has him saying he skimmed the daytalk?

I agree with you that BM and CW have not really partcipated as much after they both replaced in, but I do not see this as a definitive reason to change my vote on them. They are becoming what ThAdmiral and DBE have been the entire game.

This is far from reaching this is a big contradiction; clockwork clearly states he wants to form his own opinion in teh game thread, however he asks Battlemage to paraphrase it for him in daytalk. Also not reading the daytalk is not the point I am tryin to make, the point is he implys that there is a a lot to read. Clockwork stalled and it is something several people have pointed out during teh course of the game.

I guess I feel the same way about a Charter/Cephrir lynch as you do about BM/CW, I just have too much of a doubt to make that vote. I have too much of a doubt on ThAd/dbe to cast a vote in their direction as well. Nobody has presented a convincing enough case against either.

[WaltWishbone]

i think that was an official bitch slap from the mod.

I don't think so, several people have implied the same feelings on the matter; the times are not a clear indication of scum or town and it would be a mistake to cast a vote for that reason alone. The subsequent reactions and dialog is what's been intriguing to read; just as if some one buckled under a pile of WIFOM or was shoveling a load of OMGUS. I spent all weekend, way to much time re-reading, and it seems clear today's lynch would come down to BM/CW or Charter/Cephrir. I am not changing my vote, I think BM/CW is the right lynch.

[WaltWishbone]

There are things an ordinary, everyday and (most importantly) innocent couple talk about. You know, like how their day went, what they're going to have for dinner, plans for the weekend, who they think are vile murderers, etc., etc.

Great post Destructor, lol, I read the first line before seeing the result and thought, crap we screwed up.

Score one for the good guys.

Vote: Sekinj

Just kidding!

Unvote

Gotta run... More later.

[WaltWishbone]

Charter, you were avoiding the iceman wagon. You have to give him that, at least.

No, once iceman posted his daytalk, it was obvious it was forged and I was on board 100%, like I said when he posted it. I thought adel and your case against him was crap because I've seen iceman act like that as town.

However, I can live with an armlx or panda lynch tomorrow instead of today, so

unvote, vote sekinj

If you said mafia, the case against us is completely gone.

Why?

If it's werewolf, there still wasn't any to begin with anyway.

Lol.

Oh, you actually didn't read our daytalk? But somehow that's the whole case against me? I'd normally be confused, but since you're scum it makes sense.

@Crazy: Did you miss this post?

Timestamps have no correlation with alignment.

But if your's and BM's had the exact same time for destructors post, there's a good chance that the reason is it's the same thread!

I see the point but I don't think it's nearly enough to lynch one of the most "pro-town" couples in the game thus far. I announced I had a tell before BM posted his times, even though I did not say what it was, he could have figured it out and posted that time in order to make Sekinj look guilty? Also destructor's post really seems to indicate that the times are not conclusive and he does not want or is implying it's a mistake to use them as evidence in the game. I agree, I think a solid case should be built around a "suspects" play throughout the course of the game in order to avoid a mislynch and the times should not be a significant part of the discussion.

DarlaBlueEyes has agreed to continue playing! She's continues as if she had 3 prods.

Cool, welcome back dbe - please catch up and keep up, we need your input and vote.

As well as doing a lot of re-reading this weekend, I also was having a bit of a discussion with RR in daytalk regarding lynch scenarios. The numbers just arent in Towns favor anyway you slice it, I think this lynch is just as important as yesterdays and town still could lose this game if we don't have a good lynch.

Sekinj/Neko are one of the few couples who have not had a case against them nor have they had to respond to any type of interrgoation and I do think it's time for them to step into the limelight. I will say there are a few things I find odd about their play through the game.

sekinj 1 08-04-2008 12:40 AM ET (US) hello neko

neko2086 2 08-04-2008 11:04 AM ET (US) hi, we are swingers?

sekinj 3 08-04-2008 02:28 PM ET (US) yep, what do you think about claiming lovers?

Swingers would be a group of four right? It could be just a joke and she did make it in the game thread, but odd still.

neko2086 4 08-04-2008 09:47 PM ET (US) no preference on the claiming, we’ll figure out the scum either way. Do you know what Adel’s talking about?

sekinj 5 08-05-2008 04:17 PM ET (US) no, some players are saying they know and others say they don’t know.

sekinj 6 08-05-2008 04:18 PM ET (US) and since we are lovers, when are we going to have sex?

neko2086 7 08-05-2008 10:41 PM ET (US) *laughs*

He dedicated an entire post to laughing?

sekinj 8 08-10-2008 09:33 PM ET (US) Any feelings on who is scum?

neko2086 9 08-10-2008 11:49 PM ET (US) don’t think crazy or farside are scum. I suspect firestarter and maybe ice, adel maybe but nothing substantial, I’m suspicious of A’s motives. I suspect ThAdmiral, but admittedly I do no-matter the game.

neko2086 10 08-19-2008 10:41 AM ET (US) It is funny that people think you and adel are lovers. I would be sad if you were being unfaithful. I still suspect Adel of being a werewolf. Any other thoughts?

sekinj 11 08-20-2008 03:54 PM ET (US) I’m only sleeping around to get information. I still love you.
Crazy made a comment with you in it.

sekinj 12 08-20-2008 04:41 PM ET (US) I don’t think Adel is the scum. I suspect Crazy and HP.

sekinj 13 08-20-2008 04:42 PM ET (US) it would also be good to use the daytalk more.

neko2086 14 08-20-2008 09:59 PM ET (US) the comment crazy made about me is meh. I also think the case against him is bad. Unless he makes a really big scumtell, he’s not on my suspect list. We’ll see what comes of everyone claiming

sekinj 15 08-20-2008 11:54 PM ET (US) No, I didn’t think the crazy comment had much to it, just mentioned it because I saw it before I posted here.
When you claimed why did you say “it’s” hot, are you talking about the room, or me?

sekinj 16 08-21-2008 10:23 PM ET (US) What do you think of Kloud’s case against pwnz?

sekinj 17 08-24-2008 12:12 AM ET (US) Of all the cases that are flying around, I am most convinced by the HP one pushed by RR, I’ve noticed a couple of HP’s bad posts and am going to look at it more closely. What do you think?

neko2086 18 08-24-2008 11:49 PM ET (US) Yes, I am suspicious of them as well. After them OF/wolf and then tha/dbe are at the top of my suspect list. I’m surprised people are still going after the Crazy wagon as it is still a very bad case..

To me this entire discussion on scumhunting reads more like Mafia trying to find werewolves then town tring to find scum.

neko2086 19 08-25-2008 12:13 AM ET (US) I ended up choosing to go with OF, as I believe cere’s defense was good. I don’t mind if you disagree in thread. Deadline isn’t for another week.

sekinj 20 08-27-2008 02:15 PM ET (US) Sorry I havn’t voted yet. I haven’t had the time to examine the cases thoroughly. I will try to it soon.

neko2086 21 08-29-2008 07:04 PM ET (US) Please vote someone soon. I thought you were looking at Hp? Do you still think he is suspicious? I’m about to have to get the whip out.

sekinj 22 08-30-2008 02:13 AM ET (US) Thank for the genital nudge

sekinj 23 08-31-2008 11:38 PM ET (US) Looks like the other wagon won… we’ll see what info this provides, but I’m still suspicious of HP

neko2086 24 09-01-2008 01:26 AM ET (US) People are already voting for them again, and yes, I’m still convinced they are scum.

sekinj 25 09-04-2008 02:32 PM ET (US) Lots of discussion today… I’m still sold on HP…

sekinj 26 09-07-2008 02:31 AM ET (US) Wow, lots of new wagons. I wonder why BM voted charter, but just fosed me and the other? I didn’t even know he was talking to me.

This discussion of BM seems realisitc, however there could be a point in there where they decided to bus BM/CW.

sekinj 27 09-15-2008 02:21 PM ET (US) Any thoughts?

neko2086 28 09-16-2008 09:28 AM ET (US) I think we should take a look at several different people and then compare notes. I’m very suspicious of charter

sekinj 29 09-16-2008 10:23 AM ET (US) what do you think of Thad’s voting patterns? Yeah, I think charter bears a closer look.

sekinj 30 09-16-2008 11:19 PM ET (US) What do you think of the posting daytalk discussion?

neko2086 31 09-17-2008 07:33 PM ET (US) I think it will be helpful.

sekinj 32 09-18-2008 07:12 PM ET (US) okay, I’ll start working on the paraphrase since WW just gave the word.

Not much overall, the daytalk seems fairly convincing, but there are a few points in there that are a bit off.

My bigger question is the discussion that I had with Sekinj about the way she numbered her daytalk. To me it seems like she went in and renumbered it manually which makes no sense unless she was trying to hide a four-way conversation, due to the fact it is so time consuming. Also her explanation of working with excel; I tried to copy and paste using that program and I can't get it to do anything but go into cell A1.

@Sekinj - Can you please explain to me one more time, like I am an idiot how you prepared your daytalk step by step.

Is anybody else in the game familar with Microsoft Excel? Can you please take a look at this exchange and tell me if it sounds turthfull?

@Sekinj - did you just copy and past your entire daytalk thread, then paraphrase it as well?

yes. that seemed easiest. I had to clean up some spacing and formatting though.

Sorry Sekinji, typo, let me reask that question. You wrote:

sekinj 1 08-04-2008 12:40 AM ET (US) hello neko

Did Destructor not make the first post in your thread?

Yeah he did. He said we were supposed to keep all talking in the quicktopic. It was 08-03-2008 09:42 PM ET (US)

The numbers must have gotten screwed up cause I pasted it into Excel first. I wasn't planning on including destructor's post since I figured everyone got it, and then I didn't really think about it when I fixed the columns to line up. So...yeah, they are all one number off. Sorry about that!

This confusses me, how exactly did you copy and paste your daytalk? By column or did you just do the whole thing at once? To me it looks like you renumbered it and I'm wondering why you would need to do that? In otherwords, when I copy and paste my daytalk, here is how it comes up.

WWB 75

09-22-2008 07:07 PM ET (US)

daytalk, daytalk, daytalk Edit
Delete

Raging Rabbit 74

09-21-2008 05:07 PM ET (US)

Daytalk, blah, blah

So to re-number it, I would need to manually do this:

WWB 74 09-22-2008 07:07 PM ET (US)
daytalk, blah, blah

Raging Rabbit 73 09-21-2008 05:07 PM ET (US)
Daytalk, blah, blah

I just don't understand how the numbers got screwed up? I used word, I'll give it a try in excel, but I kinda like to know how you did it first?

@Walt: When you paste it into excel the post number goes into a seperate column. When I cut it from the QT I didn't include the text of destructor's post, just heading part accidentally. that messed me up when I was cleaning up the formating later. I used Excel so I could wipe out all my real words in one column while keeping the names, dates and post numbers. Then I went back and put in the paraphrase with the QT open beside it. I messed with the formatting like I said, and I guess I messed the post# colum up by moving it up one, but I didn't go through and re-number. *shrug* make what you want of it.

I am familar with excel, how does the post number go into a seperate column? I don't know that function. In otherwords here is how it appears in daytalk.

sekinj 1 08-04-2008 12:40 AM ET (US) hello neko

The post number (1) is after the authors name (sekinji), so if you were to post it in cell a1; Sekinj would be first followed by #1. I don't see how a seperate column would be created? I'm not saying it's a big deal, it is curious to me though.

If you paste it into Excel it automatically puts things into seperate columns, that is why I used excel. Try it and you should see what I mean.
All the words were in one column, so I could just delete that whole column instead of manually deleting each line of real discussion. But, I apparently cut and/or pasted it wrong. To get everything one off, I would have had to renumber every single one of my posts, which I didn't do. I apparently just scooted the whole column down by one when I was tryign to fix the formatting (which was messed up with spacing and background graphics). I also moved the date over, and then sorted it by date so that it would end up oldest to newest. I really can't tell you exactly what went wrong because it was just a typing error.

It makes sense in the way she explains it to me, however I can't make it work. Can someone familar with excel also please give it a try?

[WaltWishbone]

Why are people still looking at the timestamps when the mod said they don't mean anything? That is THE ONLY thing you guys have! once again charter/ceph are going for any wagon that isn't their own.

No, thats not true, there have been a few things during the game that should be discussed. It merits a bit of research and dialog in my opinion, especially from a couple who has had no pressure the entire game. The time stamps are irrelevant but the scum probably didn't know that, and the subsequent reactions and discussion it has/will create is more interesting then the times themselves.

[WaltWishbone]

@SleepyPanda - What was the case you wanted to present against Sekinj you metnioned the other day?

[WaltWishbone]

Are you guys crazy? They had the SAME DAYTALK stamp, and they were the ONLY ONES with that stamp. Scum teams have the same daytalk thread. It's not like half of a thread can be made at one time and half at another time! IT'S ONE THREAD!!!!

So why aren't we lynching sekinj yet?

How can I be you, if I am me and you are you?

crazy, yes you are right on one hand but destructor made that post for a reason and it could be too save our ass or it coul dbe because he did not want us to use it as evidence in the game. Like a judge, telling the jury to strike soemthing from the record. Also, Battlemage could have figured out my tell and then lied to make sekinj look guilty. We shouldn't just lynch her without more evidence, we need to make a case.

CAN ANYONE please read my post and tell me if she was lying about excel? Does anyone know that program? If she lied, then she is scum in my opinion. Or does anyone have more of a case then the timestamps?

[WaltWishbone]

Yeah, but if sekinj isn't the other mafia, who is? Nobody else had the same time.

I'm not sure, that's what I want to figure out. If the times have no indication of alignment as Destructor said and BM lied about his time, it is possible that no one else had a 9:42pm timestamp. I am not saying it's a bad vote or not a good case to pursue at all, I just want to be completely convinced before lynching anyone.

[WaltWishbone]

The idea is that the mod decided to add the town daytalks AFTER the scum daytalks, and thus created them later.

However, this falls apart completely when you realize the timestamp for the post where the mod announces he will give everyone daytalk threads is half an hour before the first time recorded for the mod's opening of a daytalk thread.

Yes, this is a good point but not what crazy is referring too, the first post in BM/CW and Sek/Neko thread was created at 9:42pm. The only two which share the same time.

Are you guys crazy? They had the SAME DAYTALK stamp, and they were the ONLY ONES with that stamp. Scum teams have the same daytalk thread. It's not like half of a thread can be made at one time and half at another time! IT'S ONE THREAD!!!!

So why aren't we lynching sekinj yet?

I do agree with you in theory Darox; the timestamp theory is not conclusive and a case needs to be made.

@Sekinj - Cool, thanks. I don't get it still but will try again.

[WaltWishbone]

The one thing we all share; scum and town is we each got an introduction post in the daytalk thread from destructor. The times would be the same for scum and town alike in their individual threads. According to the posted daytalk, the following times were given for the introduction post.

9:42pm - Sekinji/Neko & BattleMage/Clockwork
9:45pm - Armix/Sleepypanda & ?
10:07pm - crazy/KoC, Darox/DGB, ThAd/dbe, Charter/Cephrir, & WWB/RR

All the other daytalks were made at the same time as well.

Still not any kind of conclusive evidence that Sekinj is scum.

No, they were made at 10:07 but I absolutely agree with you it is not conclusive that Sekinj is scum at all. However she and Neko have not been pressured the whole game and going back through the game thread, re-reading their posts, I do feel there are some good questions we can ask them which I posted earlier.

[WaltWishbone]

@walt - I will gladly address you other questions later tongiht as well, but I just tried the excel thing again with different data. It automatically puts it into seperate columns. When i cut and pasted the daytalk it puts name and date in Column A Cell 1 and Cell 3 respectivly, post # in Column B Cell 1 and the actual post in column C Cell 1. So the only thing I did was delete all of COlumn C and then highlight and move the the date over to the now empty column C Cell 1, and then delete the extra rows (Row 2 and 3). and last I typed up my paraphrase.

I am using MS Excel 2003.

I just downloaded a 60 day trial from MS of the version you are using, it still does NOT work. I will explain what I did step by step, so please correct me if I am doing it wrong.

1. Open up MS 2003 spreadsheet
2. Open up daytalk
3. Copy daytalk
4. Paste onto spread sheet (I tried it two different ways)
4a. I pasted it into the spreadsheet directly which only gives me the option of putting the entire copy into one cell, wether it be a1, e1, e3, etc...
4b. I pasted it into the toolbar data box and hit enter and it put the entire copy into cell a1.

What am I doing different then you did? Also, even if the program had the ability to differentiate and seperate the data into individual cells, it would still put the entire first post from daytalk in row "A", so if you deleted the introduction post you would have deleted the post number. So you still wuld have had to have renumbered the daytalk and that is a lot of work from someone with nothing to hide.

Swingers would be a group of four right? It could be just a joke and she did make it in the game thread, but odd still.

Swingers would be a couple that trades partners with other couples. You know this, and you actually played into this ongoing joke of ours if I remember right, so I don't know why it's worrying you now.

No, you are right and it is funny. This is the post that made me think that there might be more to that comment then what I originally believed.

Can we switch lovers Neko? You guys are swingers right?

Just kidding hunny bunny. Wink

I don't think they would have the time for you anyways. I'm sure they're too busy swinging with another couple already.

I am extremely interested in hearing Sleepypandas reasoning behind this comment.

He dedicated an entire post to laughing?

Is that really that weird? On quicktopic? Can we note that crazy and KoC have dedicated multiple posts on

this

thread to inanity?

Yeah, point taken, but I like Sekinj's response better.

neko2086 7 08-05-2008 10:41 PM ET (US) *laughs*

He dedicated an entire post to laughing?

If you notice right before that I dedicated an entire post to trying to get him to cyber with me... I also have to add that my actual wording for the post above was pretty racy, and neko's response indicated that he was not ready to foray into his first cyber-relationship. (it was more of an uncomfortable laugh for the record).

You "All" have a lot more fun in your DT then me and RR.

To me this entire discussion on scumhunting reads more like Mafia trying to find werewolves then town tring to find scum.

Why? Because I happened to speculate that Adel might be the other werewolf? At that point it was easier to look for a scumpartner than the second scumteam.

Not entirely, there is a bit more that just goes against the content of the game thread and this exchange is what is really odd.

sekinj 26 09-07-2008 02:31 AM ET (US) Wow, lots of new wagons. I wonder why BM voted charter, but just fosed me and the other? I didn’t even know he was talking to me.

sekinj 27 09-15-2008 02:21 PM ET (US) Any thoughts?

neko2086 28 09-16-2008 09:28 AM ET (US) I think we should take a look at several different people and then compare notes. I’m very suspicious of charter

sekinj 29 09-16-2008 10:23 AM ET (US) what do you think of Thad’s voting patterns? Yeah, I think charter bears a closer look.

BattleMage, never voted for Charter nor put an fos on Sekinj yet that is what it states in your daytalk. Was the exchange between Sekinj and Erratus what she meant to post in daytalk?

Friday Sep. 5th

So cerebus's "flip flopping" consists of finding Crazy scummy until deciding his scumtell isn't one scum would have come up with, and finding Iceman slightly townish until cases against him were presented. From where I sit those are reasonable changes of mind. How are the rest of you concluding that he's scum from this?

I still want everyone who got on the cerebus wagon late yesterday to answer this.

That's odd, I could've sworn I signed up to play Mafia, not dodgeball.

Vote: charter

FoS: sekinj, KoC

Monday Sep. 8

I'm going to need to be replaced in this game. Sorry.

Wow, so you really didn't want an answer from me? I answer you and then you ask to be replaced? well before you go, please answer this: Why did you vote charter but just fos me and KoC?

How do you mix-up Battlemage and Erratus?

[WaltWishbone]

@walt - I will gladly address you other questions later tongiht as well, but I just tried the excel thing again with different data. It automatically puts it into seperate columns. When i cut and pasted the daytalk it puts name and date in Column A Cell 1 and Cell 3 respectivly, post # in Column B Cell 1 and the actual post in column C Cell 1. So the only thing I did was delete all of COlumn C and then highlight and move the the date over to the now empty column C Cell 1, and then delete the extra rows (Row 2 and 3). and last I typed up my paraphrase.

I am using MS Excel 2003.

I just downloaded a 60 day trial from MS of the version you are using, it still does NOT work. I will explain what I did step by step, so please correct me if I am doing it wrong.

1. Open up MS 2003 spreadsheet
2. Open up daytalk
3. Copy daytalk
4. Paste onto spread sheet (I tried it two different ways)
4a. I pasted it into the spreadsheet directly which only gives me the option of putting the entire copy into one cell, wether it be a1, e1, e3, etc...
4b. I pasted it into the toolbar data box and hit enter and it put the entire copy into cell a1.

What am I doing different then you did? Also, even if the program had the ability to differentiate and seperate the data into individual cells, it would still put the entire first post from daytalk in row "A", so if you deleted the introduction post you would have deleted the post number. So you still wuld have had to have renumbered the daytalk and that is a lot of work from someone with nothing to hide.

I don't know what you are doing differently. I have asked the mod if I can show a screenshot of my excel to show you how it shows up when I cut and paste. the post number shows up by itself in column B.

A screen cap doesn't help at all, it is just impossible for a program to take a block of text in the way it was layed out in daytalk and decipher on it's own where each word or number goes subsequently seprating it into four diffierent columns and x number of rows.

[WaltWishbone]

A screen cap doesn't help at all, it is just impossible for a program to take a block of text in the way it was layed out in daytalk and decipher on it's own where each word or number goes subsequently seprating it into four diffierent columns and x number of rows.

It put it in 3 columns. I had to manually move the date over. I already said that. Look, I did it. That is how Excel works. My job is in IT and I deal with this stuff all the time. If you even just make a word document with Tabs in between it will put that in seperate columns as well.

EXAMPLE:
Type this into word (substitute real tabs and enters for the words):
Mickey<tab>mouse<tab>is<tab>gay<enter>
he<tab>should<tab>be<tab>loved<enter>

then cut and paste that into Excel. It will put 'Mickey' and 'he' in COlumn A, cell1 and 2 respectively. 'mouse' and 'should' in COlumn B, 'is' and 'be' in column C and 'gay' and 'loved' in column D.

Someone else PLEASE try to cut and paste the daytalk into Excel and see that it puts it into seperate columns. I really don't want to be lynched because Walt can't work Excel.

WHERE? Patse it where? I told you exactly what I did and your only response is I don't know what you are doing differentlly? I have two options once the content is copied as i explained in 4a and 4b, so show tell me where i past. Do I paste in cell a1 or the toolbar box?

1. Open up MS 2003 spreadsheet
2. Open up daytalk
3. Copy daytalk
4. Paste onto spread sheet (I tried it two different ways)
4a. I pasted it into the spreadsheet directly which only gives me the option of putting the entire copy into one cell, wether it be a1, e1, e3, etc...
4b. I pasted it into the toolbar data box and hit enter and it put the entire copy into cell a1.

[WaltWishbone]

Also RR, tried it and it didn't work for him either.

[WaltWishbone]

@Sekinj - Well that worked, Ctrl-V is certainly different then the two methods I used, Isn't it?

Here is what you wrote when you first explained it to me.

When I cut it from the QT I didn't include the text of destructor's post, just heading part accidentally. that messed me up when I was cleaning up the formating later.

It still would have left the "author" in cell a1 and "date" in cell a3, it does not explain how only the post number from cell b1 remained, when the data entered into the other cells were removed. It also doesn't explain how the post number for each subsequent post was off by one as they do not share an individual row or column and any subsequent insert or deletion of a row or column would have changed the formatting on the other entries. I believe you manually renumbered your daytalk and I'm not sure why you wouldn't have just said in the first places, "yes thats what I did", rather then being even a "tiny bit" defensive about it.

But, I apparently cut and/or pasted it wrong. To get everything one off, I would have had to renumber every single one of my posts, which I didn't do.

I didn't ask that question in the first place because I really gave a damn or thought it had much merit. I asked because I wanted to see how you would respond, especially from a couple who has had very little to answer to this entire game. I'm not sure what to make of it all, but it's something to consider at the least.

[WaltWishbone]

Guys. Are you really arguing about this? Seriously?

Well, yeah, if you or anyone else do not see much of a case other then timestamps, please tell me, cause I am not gonna vote for them on that alone.

[WaltWishbone]

I reread the first 20 pages, very strong town vibe from Crazy (would have to be a genious actor to pull off such a stunt as scum) as well as sej/Neko, and to a lesser extent Panda and OpposedForce (Darox). Charter opposed massclaim, pushed extra hard on Crazy and then moved to Ice when his death started looking inevitable. ThAd was just as useless then as he is now, I'm franktly surprised he's lurked his way to day 6 with such relative ease.

I don't see a lot of merit in the mod's first post as a tell, especially after he 'bitch slapped' the theory. Also the excel discussion is pretty redundant. What's much more of a tell is charter excluding posts from his paraphrase and not posting the times, but people seem to have forgotten about that just because it's been a while.

Vote charter

.

So I am curious, you claim the ThAd is useless and you are surprised he has been able to lurk his way to day 6, yet Neko only has 46 posts, less then ThAd and yet you have not stated that you think he is useless and why you are surprised how he has been able to lurk his way to day 6?

[WaltWishbone]

VOTE: SleepyPanda

Screw it, I don't actually think sekinj is scum, whereas armlx and SP are.

unvote, vote SP

Crazy, vote SP! It is time.

Brilliant, I went back and reread a few pages based on your exchanges, and I see why you have had your vote on Armix/SP for so long. I don't have time to add my opinions right now, I'll try to get to it later or as soon as possible.

[WaltWishbone]

I am not going to go into too much detail and quote the entire case made by Charter/Cephrir, however it was a good case. I am going to add my opinions on several issues and elaborate a bit on what they have already stated.

SleepyPanda

Regarding the Iceman lynch; I have brought this up before. Neither Sleepypanda or Armix voted for Iceman, I do not think there was any bussing on that lynch and I believe Icemans scum partners stayed off his wagon. SleepyPanda has responded by claiming that because he was on the Firestarter wagon and the Iceman wagon had enough votes, that this is a null tell.

Scumish to neutral - Possible Werewolves or MafiaSleepy Panda/Armix (pm) - Niether Sleepy Panda or Armix voted for Fire/Ice either, Sleepy Panda made the same comment as OF regarding a vote on Ice at L2, however did not vote for him in the final count.

My vote was on Fire. When ice announced that he and Fire were lovers, there was no reason to move my vote as he was already the leading bandwagon by quite a lot.

There were only eight votes on Iceman at the time he voted for Fire; the wagon could have been easily derailed, especially after he commented on the quality of Adel's case. If he felt Iceman was the best lynch, why did he speak against Adel's case and why did he not vote for him?

Iceman's wagon picked up pretty quickly, so scum could've stayed off and it wouldn't even matter.

Sleepypanda was perfectly aware of how quickly the iceman wagon formed and was extremely safe placing a vote on firestarter as it was dying while at the same time not voting for Iceman. He was quite safe "distancing" himself from Firestarter and iceman while still holding out hope they would avoid being lynched.

OMGUS votes; SleepyPanda accussed Charter and Cephrir or omgus, yet he has done the same things. After writting in his daytalk that he felt me and RR were town, he threatend to make a case against me because of a pissing contest with no substance that he contributed to just as much as myself. After Charter voted for Armix, he became his prime suspect and SP has dedicated most of his free time to seeing him lynched.

Armix

The daytalk prepared by Armix is extremely thin and seems contrived, as I have mentioned before. I believe he removed every post between August 2nd and September 3rd. Armix made the following comment in response to my comment regarding his thin daytalk.

We do know at least two of the daytalks are fabricated. Looking through them a second time, the most contrived or "thin" seem to be.

WWB, I forgot to address this earlier, but why would thin be scummy? I discussed this in the last Polygamist (where I happened to be scum, but I was being legit about what I said): what do we really have to discuss in QT that's not better off in thread other then mentioning when an attack has secretive motives (ie baiting like the Adel/TS thing)?

And before Charter/Cephrir goes off on me for this, I'm attacking his day talk for reasons other then the content.

I responded that I agreed that thin is not a clear scumtell on it's own.

While I agree detailed good day talk is indicative of town, I'm not sure the opposite is true.

And as I said before in either this or that game, I'd rather have the opinions of a confirmed townie + the rest to analyze.

However here, after stating that he does not think "thin" daytalk is indicative of scum.

Vote stands for lack of D/T

He states he is keeping his vote on Charter/Cephrir for lack of daytalk. He can't have it both ways.

Here is the actual daytalk; he claims the first interaction between himself and SleepyPanda is on September 2nd, 2008.

08-03-2008 10:28 PM ET Panda: Hi

09-02-2008 10:35 PM ET Armlx: We should probably use this.

09-03-2008 08:09 AM ET Panda: I'm pretty sure HP + cere are the other werewolf pair. I'm going to look into Cephrir + Charter and Sek + Neko pairs as well.

09-08-2008 03:47 AM ET Armlx: Why those pairings?

09-08-2008 06:30 AM ET Panda: Their Day 2 votes on HP seem a bit off to me. Rereads are gonna have to wait. Don't have much free time.

09-08-2008 11:47 PM ET Armlx: Fair nuff.

09-09-2008 04:11 AM ET Panda: I think trying to find mafia now would be beneficial since we would have more information to work with later. I still don't have much of a read on Th+DBE. And it would at least get them to talk more.

09-16-2008 12:46 PM ET Panda: You really that sure about Crazy being town. His play outside the PM tell thing has been really scummy. I'm also leaning town on RR and WWB for what its worth.

09-16-2008 4:20PM ET Armlx: I'm as sure on Crazy as I can be in this set up.

However here, on August 21st, 2008, SleepyPanda cleary indicates that they have already talked in daytalk.

I'm lovers with arlmx. Still don't know what's with him. He hasn't said anything in daytalk since he left.

Mod, is it too early to prod him?

He's posting in other threads so maybe he forgot he was in this game.

Again, I believe, they simply deleted every post between August 3rd and September 2nd that included their interactions with Fire/Ice. I thought the case Charter presented had merit and his frustration that it was not given much credibility is even more understandable now. On the otherhand, SleepyPanda has seemed to come unglued since the timestamp post and is even more defensive then he has been this entire game. I think if you connect the dots, along with the timestamp of Destructors post in their daytalk being at 9:45pm, which was more then likely Fire/Ice's, I think they are the right lynch.

[WaltWishbone]

Good case by charter/Ceph? I'd prefer if you actually did go and quote this so called "good case" they had on us, because if my memory doesn't fail me, charter's case was based on using poor logic and "SP/armlx is scum, lynch them" being repeated about every other post of his. I've asked charter to list the reasons he wanted to vote us. He did not.

Everybody here has read the case against you, my opinion is after re-reading is it's a good case.

How are you so positive that no one bussed? Give me any conclusive evidence that will back up that reasoning. You're just assuming with nothing else. I'm sure you're eventually going to say that you feel neko/sekinj bussed BM/CW though, with no more reason than you're giving here. You're basing your suspicions, and cases, on the mod's daytalk times. You say you aren't, but you clearly are.

You Are correct, the TIMESTAMPS are a big part of the case, however as I have stated all along they are not the complete case. You not voting for iceman and then the BS you fed us afterwards and again today really makes me believe you are the other werewolves.

I'm lovers with arlmx. Still don't know what's with him. He hasn't said anything in daytalk since he left.

Once again, you're not bothering to check what you're reading, or simply misrepping. I was referring to armlx's first post, saying that he will be back "on Tuesday", which would've been on Aug. 18th. The 18th came and went without him having said anything up to the 21st.

No, once again you are manipulating the context of the conversation. you LIED, you posted in daytalk with Armix before September 2, however did not include it when you were asked to present your daytalk.

Your pony tricks don't work; it's all smoke and mirrors. I think your explanations are a weak attempt at saving your hide and I am not removing my vote from you.

[WaltWishbone]

WWB, I don't see your point on the 21st thing.... All he said was I hadn't posted in the day talk.

He states he is keeping his vote on Charter/Cephrir for lack of daytalk. He can't have it both ways.

No, lack of date/time. Not lack of day talk.

No he didn't he said you hadn't posted in daytalk SINCE you left. The keyword being since, which implies he had posted to you prior to leaving.

And he had posted his times when you wrote that post.

[WaltWishbone]

When I typed out my daytalk, I didn't even copy & paste at all. If sekinj was scum, he could just claim that, you know. So this whole argument is pointless.

so doesn't that show that I'm NOT scum?

How many more townies can we kill for "free" in order to test a theory the MOD dis-proved?

No, it shows that WWB's case against you is a null-tell.

Nice try, though.

then what is your case?

-BM had the time 9:42.
-He was mafia.
-Mafia have the same times.
-You were the only other person with the time 9:42.

Not 100% proven, but it's certainly better than anything else.

Well if we are gonna test it again, can we please try it on Sleepypanda first. I do not find Sekinj really scummy.

[WaltWishbone]

Did armlx's daytalk match times with a lynched scum? No.

Did sekinj's? Yes.

Well I'm not changing my vote so neither Sekinj or SP are gonna get lynched oday, Charter/Cephrir will.

[WaltWishbone]

Good case by charter/Ceph? I'd prefer if you actually did go and quote this so called "good case" they had on us, because if my memory doesn't fail me, charter's case was based on using poor logic and "SP/armlx is scum, lynch them" being repeated about every other post of his. I've asked charter to list the reasons he wanted to vote us. He did not.

Everybody here has read the case against you, my opinion is after re-reading is it's a good case.

Seriously, I'd like to read it again. If you want people to vote for us, and their case was so great, why not requote it so you can convince everyone else?

I don't have all day to post here; reading here and daytalk, posting as much as I have take a lot of time. Everybody has read the case and points and can make up their mind from memory or go re-read themselves. My opinion is it was well thought out, had merit, and you are scum.

How are you so positive that no one bussed? Give me any conclusive evidence that will back up that reasoning. You're just assuming with nothing else. I'm sure you're eventually going to say that you feel neko/sekinj bussed BM/CW though, with no more reason than you're giving here. You're basing your suspicions, and cases, on the mod's daytalk times. You say you aren't, but you clearly are.

You Are correct, the TIMESTAMPS are a big part of the case, however as I have stated all along they are not the complete case. You not voting for iceman and then the BS you fed us afterwards and again today really makes me believe you are the other werewolves.

If it's BS, it's only coming from you. Saying that since I wasn't on the ice wagon means that I'm their partner holds as much water as me making a case saying that you are the last WW pair because you bussed ice. It's completely WIFOM, yet you're holding onto it as if it were the smoking gun.

What are you saying is BS? Did DBE not unintentionally place a vote without bothering to look at the vote count? Why did she immediately unvote when she realized it was L-1? Why did others criticize her for putting ice to L-1? It was because ice's lynch was pretty much guarenteed. There was no need to speed up his lynch when it was inevitable, and when people have not had a say yet. The only other leading wagon was Fire's. During Day 1, there had been no other competing wagons, besides Crazy's which died down when ice's came around. You're pushing BS points like this because of the daytalk times. Nothing else. You're trying to make something out of nothing and hope people follow.

You are missing a really important point here, I don't need to make anything out of anything. They have all read for themselves and can make up their own mind whether you are the right lynch or not. My opinion is you are the second set of werewolves.

No, once again you are manipulating the context of the conversation. you LIED, you posted in daytalk with Armix before September 2, however did not include it when you were asked to present your daytalk.

Your pony tricks don't work; it's all smoke and mirrors. I think your explanations are a weak attempt at saving your hide and I am not removing my vote from you.

Wait, who's the one manipulating context? Why are you not commenting on most of my response to your other post?

I have commented on everything that merits a comments, at this point the things I am adressing are the only things that merit any further dialog.

I'm lovers with arlmx. Still don't know what's with him.

He hasn't said anything in daytalk

since he left.

Mod, is it too early to prod him? He's posting in other threads so maybe he forgot he was in this game.

Hi, see sig. Will be back to reread and what not by Tuesday.

What exactly are you not understanding here? What does the bolded mean? He left and was suppose to come back Tuesday the 14th, yet by the 21st, he still hasn't returned. I'm saying he's not posting in game, or in daytalk.

In fact, you seem to ingore anything that doesn't help your case, regardless if it has merit or not. You completely ignored the prod that I asked the mod for. How is asking for a prod not indicative of absence?

Way to only highlight the part of the comment that works for you.

Really scummy not highlighting

SINCE

if you are going to tell me you included that word in the statement for any other reason then to indicate that you had spoken in daytalk prior to your September 3rd post you are full of it.

[WaltWishbone]

I don't have all day to post here; reading here and daytalk, posting as much as I have take a lot of time. Everybody has read the case and points and can make up their mind from memory or go re-read themselves. My opinion is it was well thought out, had merit, and you are scum.

No, the reason why you don't want to quote their case is because it's nonexistant. Charter's case was entirely bad logic. How hard is it to set it so it only shows charter or Cephrir's post, then click the quote button?

No, it is because I am willfull and lazy and it does not need to be reposted, as everyone is free to go read for themselves and decide if it is a case with merit or not. Quite telling me, what I am think or why I am doing things when it is so obvious, my opinion is it is a good case.

Way to only highlight the part of the comment that works for you. Wink

Really scummy not highlighting SINCE if you are going to tell me you included that word in the statement for any other reason then to indicate that you had spoken in daytalk prior to your September 3rd post you are full of it.

Go ahead, continue arguing over semantics. When the game ends, and if daytalks are posted, go take a look.

That is great, I actually thought the same thing after I hit the submit button. I can't wait until this game is over, you flip scum and we see you had daytalk prior to September 2nd. I guess we will have to wait a bit, but I look forward to it.

[WaltWishbone]

No, it is because I am willfull and lazy and it does not need to be reposted, as everyone is free to go read for themselves and decide if it is a case with merit or not. Quite telling me, what I am think or why I am doing things when it is so obvious, my opinion is it is a good case. Wink

I'm going to start a wiki entry and dub it the "Charter defense"; "I'm to lazy to do so and so", "I can't be bothered to contribute in a game I joined", that'll be great.

Stop putting words in your mouth? You don't like that? How is that different from your supposed case against me? "Oh, you're lying here", "This is what you really meant when you said this". Yeah, I'm not going to stop. You won't quote their case because it's nonexistant.

At least summarize their case then, in your own words. No need for quotes, no need for referencing. You HAVE to remember their case if you thought it was so great. Don't even try and use the charter defense now. You have time to constantly reply to my posts, you should have time to sum the major points in their case.

You are fucking kidding right?

I have posted more, read more, and contributed more to this game in the last five days then some players have the entire game. I don't take orders from scum, I believe it was a good case, combine with the timestamps, and other points mentioned in my case you are the right lynch.

[WaltWishbone]

@SleepyPanda - I'll tell you what, I will probably have some free time later this evening or tomorrow, I will go back and post the merits of his case if you do something for me. Can you reword this for me.

Go ahead, continue arguing over semantics.

To me, it sounds like you are saying this;

"Yes you are correct WWB, by using the word since, my comment does imply that I talked to Armix in daytalk prior to September 2nd, however thats not what I meant it was a semantics error on my part."

Can you please reword that for me?

[WaltWishbone]

So what is your reason for voting me now? The times have been posted.

Stalling on a claim, the complete and utter OMGUS of everyone, illogical attacks.

And you are really digging here WWB, manipulating it so the since implies I had before rather then implying that I had left.

Not anymore, he pretty much admitted he did with the implication it was merely a semantics error.

[WaltWishbone]

this

Go ahead, continue arguing over semantics.

[WaltWishbone]

@SleepyPanda - I'll tell you what, I will probably have some free time later this evening or tomorrow, I will go back and post the merits of his case if you do something for me. Can you reword this for me.

Go ahead, continue arguing over semantics.

To me, it sounds like you are saying this;

"Yes you are correct WWB, by using the word since, my comment does imply that I talked to Armix in daytalk prior to September 2nd, however thats not what I meant it was a semantics error on my part."

Can you please reword that for me?

You're saying the word 'since' implies that we have talked in our daytalks before. I'm saying it doesn't. We're arguing over the definition of the word. Thus we're arguing over semantics. Do I need to hold your hand so you can go to the bathroom as well?

Are you hiting on me SleepyPanda? Missing your werewolf lovers and looking for some fresh meat?

It does, you are wrong. When you finsih school and actually graduate, then you can tell me all about it.

I have an idea, wanna get my goat and end this argument. You are town right, why don't you post your daytalk right now prove me wrong, you will be modkilled and if you are town, we will look really stupid.

But the thing is you are scum.

[WaltWishbone]

It does, you are wrong. When you finsih school and actually graduate, then you can tell me all about it. Wink

English isn't my first language, but I'm still pretty sure I have a better grasp of it than you do.

Okay, that's actually kinda a big deal and translation often changes context as well as meaning. An argument over semantics is not as easy as defining a word differently when it is within the boundries of a discussion that requires context and intent. For instance in the case of Japanesse (which I do not speak), however a friend told me there is not a direct word that translates to "no". I'm not sure if this is true or not, but it illustrates the point regardless.

In the end, this is really what the exchange between myself and you comes down to. You are saying that you were not implying that you had spoken to Armix in daytalk and I don't believe you. I'm not sure what else to say until we see your daytalk and have proof.

So there is one more thing I didn't mention previoulsy. I asked you politely twice to please present the case you were building on Seknj/Neko. Can you please post that.

I'll be happy to highlight, in my opinion, the merits of the Charter case against you once that is posted and I have free time.

[WaltWishbone]

I'll be happy to highlight, in my opinion, the merits of the Charter case against you once that is posted and I have free time.

Why do you want the case on sekinj before highlighting the "merits" of charter's "case"?

Because I asked him twice over the weekend and at the beginning of the week and he completely ignored my question, so, why should I answer his request?

[WaltWishbone]

Because I asked him twice over the weekend and at the beginning of the week and he completely ignored my question, so, why should I answer his request?

That's right, it's a request. A request that benefits me in no way. If it's a good case as you say, it strengthens your own. You're not hurting me by not posting it. And even so, you refuse to post it multiple times, as well as asking for something in return, as if this is a trade.

Yes, it does benefit you if you are town and we catch scum. If you have a case against them why are you not posting it?

Is it because you think if they flip scum you will be lynched next? The object of the game is not to stay alive until the end, the object is to lynch all the scum. If you are holding back a case because you think it will further prove the timestamp theory, you are hurting the town.

[WaltWishbone]

Yes, it does benefit you if you are town and we catch scum. If you have a case against them why are you not posting it?

If you're saying we're scum, I see no reason for you to be so reluctant to post charter's case, which is what I've been saying this entire time.

You're lost in your own world again.

Again, you are lost in your own little world. I am not reluctant, the case I prepared has plenty of merit on it's own. As far as Charter/Cephrir here are few points, I am not going to clutter the thread by re-posting the entire exchange. For anyone who would like to read it in full, in order to appreciate the context, please refer to Septemeber 23rd to 25th, 2008.

Or it could be exactly what I said it was. Also the truth. I don't really care how I convey it really, call it whatever you want, it's still right and you know it.

Lets look at the facts here.

Your case

1. I attacked you for your day talk
2. TS

(confirmed town, who was playing to lynch scum, not townies, as you are)

said you were town
3. I didn't vote for someone while the person I replaced was inactive, then helped spur wagons on 2 people who turned up town.

You have the same role as their not being on iceman's wagon. Regardless of being inactive or not, his wagon started up way before you were replaced in.

4. Your extreme buddying up to anyone who will listen (which is a lot of people in this game...)
5. Your being horribly wrong, tunneling in on one townie, lynching them, and moving right on to the next.

Honestly, I don't understand how no one else wants you dead.

Oh, look at what I found, armlx wasn't on icemans wagon, and was on Kloud's and HP's. Now he's on another townie's as well! Are the rest of you guys going to let him get away with lynching townies at will? Seriously?

I'm mostly not answering stuff directed at charter, but I feel the need to point out that the case on charter/me mostly revolved around charter.

EBWOP,

If people seem willing to listen to reason perhaps I will bother trying.

Actually, I'm interested in what you have to say. I'm willing to listen, so talk.

Things to do/questions to answer:

1) Explain your case on armlx/SP
2) Explain your case on CW/BM
3) What are your thoughts of Adel/TS? TS has continued to post, but has yet to post their daytalk. Essentially, it's the exactly what CW/BM have done, which is not posting daytalk. Why do you not mentioning them?

This post strikes me as an attempt to look town while lynching a townie but I will answer nonetheless.
1) It's pretty simple. armlx's back and forth with charter, for the most part; I don't really care for his case. Call it OMGUS if you really want to; I also happen to know that a protown player is suspicious of him. That said, you are way way way way way further down from BM/CWR on my scumlist.
2) Um, duh? CWR is outright refusing to post daytalk without reading the thread and there are EXACTLY ZERO PROTOWN REASONS why he would insist on this after it has been explained to him why doing so would be protown.
3) TS says she's doing it, although it is taking her a suspicious amount of time; they better have quite a lot of daytalk. But what it really boils down to is that I thought Adel seemed protown.

Daytalk fix upcoming; I'll just do the whole thing over rather than filling in charter's holes since looking for them would be pretty time-consuming.

Re-reading this, without having Charter/Cephrir confirmed scum gives it new meaning in my opinion. It comes across more as frustrated townie then scum and their opinions are more thought-provoking then concrete evidence. I feel I touched on several of the most important points in my post, however anyone wishing to read themselves, please check out September 23rd to the 25th.

[WaltWishbone]

I am not reluctant, the case I prepared has plenty of merit on it's own.

If you think your case has plenty of merit, so be it. We're not talking about your case, we're talking about charter's. You refused to quote or summarize their case at least three times. Then you tried to barter for it, telling me to do this and do that and then you'll post it. If you weren't being reluctant, you would've posted it the first time I asked.

What is the first huge quote suppose to be? Armlx is pointing out charter's scummy behavior and then charter follows it up with his broken record response. How about you say what points they are trying to bring up in each one because I have no idea what I'm suppose to be looking at.

There is a difference between being reluctant, which indicates by definition that I had an ajenda as opposed to being difficult which indicates by definition I am acting with contempt.

As I stated in my prior post, the entire echanges is between September 23rd and 25th, and you can read for yourself and conclude what you wish from further reading.

Oh, look at what I found, armlx wasn't on icemans wagon, and was on Kloud's and HP's. Now he's on another townie's as well! Are the rest of you guys going to let him get away with lynching townies at will? Seriously?

This has already been beaten to death. All the reading you said you've done, you should've seen this discussed many times. Do you actually see that charter was on kloud's wagon? He also said he was willing to vote HP just because everyone else was. However, at the end of the day, he chose to put his vote on someone who had no other votes, making it completely useless. RR was on both townie wagons as well. This must mean both of you are scum.

You wanted me to illustatrare my reason for finidng merit in Charter/Cephrirs case. This is one point I find merit in, I think it's a good point and you do not agree. I don't agree with your logic here and it really takes away from a valid point.

And again, I have no idea why you're just quoting the block of text from Cephrir. How is him answering my questions a case against me? Unless you're referring to this one specific line here?

Yes, that is indeed the point I find valid. It does come across as an attempt to look townie whilst lynching a townie.

This post strikes me as an attempt to look town while lynching a townie but I will answer nonetheless.

Do you realize how many people in this game won't contribute unless asked to? I hate to break it to you, but this is not a case. Even if he's scum, he can offer valuable clues as to who his scum partners are. If this is what you think is noteworthy, might I remind you of what you just tried to do? You tried to leech information about sekinj/neko from me while still advocating my lynch. Sounds like the above.

Again, you asked for points and these are examples. I don't expect you to suddenly exclaim, "I am scum, lynch me." You asked for an explanation of the merits and the preceeding are a few examples. As I stated, reading the exchange from a different perspective adds credibility to his claims. The exchange between the 23rd and 25th is far more thought provoking then it is tangible evidence and the merits of the case stand on their own.

Of course, I constantly evaluate and re-evaluate the discussions in this game, however at this point I just don't see anything in your defense that warrants switching my vote. I think their are certain aspects of my case that you have explained quite well, however there are far too many that do not seem truthfull. Overall, I would say the worst thing or rather revealing tell in my opinion is in the way that you have defended yourself by trying to confuse the issues with answers that are questions. It comes across as smoke and mirrors.

I will absolutely consider what everyone else contributes to the discussion, however at this point my vote stands.

[WaltWishbone]

The time stamp theory that was already disproven?

I don't see that the timestamp theory was disproven, I see that it was cautioned. So does that mean Sek/Neko and you/SP are not scum and should be given a free pass until the end of the game? Otherwise, why say it in the first place? I believe there is scum in there at least somewhere. My interpretation was that a lynch should not be based on that alone. I do feel there is plenty of other evidence against you and SP, where as I don't feel there is much of a case on Sek/Neko. You two are my best scum read right now.

[WaltWishbone]

I've yet to see this other evidence WWB. Please post it.

Basically, you keep bringing up the time stamp, saying your vote isn't correlated to it, and not saying anything about what else there is when asked what it is then.

It is detailed in post #2273, which has been the main focus of the discussion through out the course of the day.

[WaltWishbone]

So when I ask you to show me charter/Ceph's case, you say these are the major points?

Honestly, I don't understand how no one else wants you dead.

This post strikes me as an attempt to look town while lynching a townie but I will answer nonetheless.

These are opinions. You keep saying they hold merit. Opinions are not facts. They are not points; they are not evidence. I find it hard to believe you have trouble telling the difference. I disagree with you, you call it smoke and mirrors. You're using daytalk times as a crutch to build a flimsy case on it, as well as even using opinions to support it.

Go ahead, ask other people. Are the quotes above opinion?

Here, I found some more quotes for you from charter that you can use for your case:

Hey, look at that, armlx has found the next few scum for us too!
I can't belive people are buying in to his bs.

Iceman was scum. I am not.

RR and armlx are scum. Lynch them.

Wow, you are total scum Sleepypanda. You just totally manipulated my entire fucking post, only scum do that. Everybody is free to re read my post for themsleves, not your diatribe, and it clearly illstrates the merits of their case are between septemeber 23 and 25th, not just those two points.

@Sekinj - way to join the charter wagon to save your skin.

@Knights - So Sleepypanda/Armix, Sekinj/Neko should get a free pass to the end of the game? You refuse to vote based on the timestamp theory. So you wanna lose this game on principal. I layed out a good case against Sleepypanda/Armix, I really wish you would please read it again.

[WaltWishbone]

I refuse to lynch on timestamps, and I believe that lynches should be made on actual evidence, rather than purely attempting to out-guess/break the game.

In the abstract, I would normally disagree with this. Except the mod specifically stated the theory was wrong.

No he did not scum, he said there was no correlation between timestamps and alignment. But good point, why did he say it? People don't do things without a reason.

Did the scum whine to him or was it to keep townies from making a bad lynch? I have to believe the later.