Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)

[neko2086]

vote: farside

go bandwagon go!

Trying not to buddy up to me this time, eh, Ceph?


Seems to me that a massclaim could only help as it gives the town more info to work with. I've not been in a game w/ lovers before, though, so maybe I'm missing something. Anyone here completed a similar game? It would be nice to know what's worked and what hasn't in the past.

[neko2086]

I severely doubt Adel is scum. That would mean this whole "secret scumtell" is bull, which can't be, because I think I know what he's talking about...

Not necessarily, seeing as how there are two scumgroups that are working against each other.

[neko2086]

Ack, I missed a lot yesterday...

Not wanting to beat a dead horse, I just wanted this to be noted:

I know what it is. You don't and are pretending to. Die scum

-I have a feeling I know what she is talking about,

Seems like a slight change in story to me. Interesting that he 'knows' what it is when attacking somebody else for pretending to see it, but has a 'feeling' he knows what it is when defending himself. It may be minor, but noteworthy.

I was prepared to vote Crazy, but now after reading the last page here, I'm not so sure. If he really did think the town would know something the scum wouldn't (which is really bizarre, considering we're in an open game), I can see how he would have thought Adel would have to have been town to see this 'secret scumtell.' Also, it doesn't make sense for Crazy to be scum in this context. More likely, he's a townie that got so excited about finding a secret scumtell, he didn't even check the mechanics of the game to see if it would make sense.

So, I don't like the post-explanation votes either, but I'd like to know, Crazy, are you aware that pwnz also voted you (for no reason whatsoever), and that Walt gave you a FOS?

Why are we rewarding people who repeatedly vote for no reason?

unvote; vote: pwnz

[neko2086]

3. Adel, too, is asking to keep alive. You aren't suspicious of her, why?

Where?

[neko2086]

farside, aren't you voting OF right now?

[neko2086]

As town, both he AND farside would have to have missed the notice that daytalking was added for everyone late though...

Yes, but there is evidence that farside has paid just as little attention to the game set-up as Crazy:

Why the heck would scum buss. If there buddy dies all 4 of them die.

So, my thoughts are about the same as Cerebus' atm. It just doesn't make sense that Crazy would be scum given that he'd have to have decided to propose a plan that he knew wouldn't work and would bring lots of negative attention his way. Self-voting and emotional appeals, however, I find difficult to excuse.

Firestarter, do you think Crazy is likely to be scum?

[neko2086]

unvote; vote: firestarter

First, I don't see how RR has done much different than I've done, or others. Clearly, Crazy has acted scummy. Logically, however, it doesn't add up for Crazy to be scum, all things considered (see my last posts for reasons). So why, then, would it be scummy to acknowledge somebody's scumminess but not vote them because the argument for them being town is much stronger? (whew)

Additionally, you're attacking RR for defending somebody who you believe is town when, looking at the votecount, it clearly wasn't popular to do so.

And, the quoting of Adel's call for other bandwagons while saying you're not trying to make a case... I'm also wondering what the point of your vote is, as you're sending very mixed messages.

[neko2086]

If it comes down to it, I'll vote iceman, would rather stick to my firestarter vote, though. I highly doubt Crazy is scum and I've already stated why.

Iceman, any reason thAdmiral is not on your list of people who need to contribute more?

I'm going to be v/la for a few days here, but I should be able to post a couple times, and I will certainly be able to post something of substance before deadline.

[neko2086]

I'm back. Getting caught up now.

[neko2086]

So we really like wagons until they get close to a lynch, I see. I'm perfectly happy with fire/op and ice getting lynched, but I see no need to curb discussion, so I'll leave my vote where it is. Penguin's vote on Crazy didn't help anything.

I can see what Adel is saying about Darla's vote, but it seems like she could have joined quite awhile ago if she was just going to bus. Not the most compelling case around.

Alabaska and dybeck are certainly worth looking into tomorrow. Presenting an opinion like it is a solid fact without backing it up doesn't help anything. Need to read into them more.

ThAdmiral, is there anything wrong with discussing possible lynch candidates for tomorrow when there is obviously not going to be any alternative to the ice/op lynch today? I see discussion happening, not necessarily the setting up of lynches.

[neko2086]

Also, I think ThAdmiral is intentionally flying under the radar. IGMEOY.

Also, he is not paying attention, as he voted dybeck who is no longer with us.


I don't think we need a massclaim yet. I think Adel is just trying to see how many people she can get to follow her. Yesterday mostly everybody agreed that waiting to massclaim for a few days was the best plan, now suddenly Adel changes her mind and there's a wave of massclaim requests.

[neko2086]

So you don't want to massclaim just to not go along with Adel? You were FOR massclaiming at the start of Day 1. I assumed you switched to against because of Adel's scumtell which she said would be better after a few days. Do you believe she doesn't have a scumtell anymore? What is your reason now for not wanting to massclaim?

I didn't change my mind because of her scumtell (though if she did have one, it wouldn't hurt to see what she had). It seemed that waiting until after a few days to massclaim would give a little more information, and I'm thinking we should at least wait one more day. I'm not completely opposed to a massclaim now either. I just don't see why we're going to do it now when we decided to wait a few days.

I don't know if Adel has a scumtell or not, but as AJ said, it apparently doesn't matter anymore.

[neko2086]

why would a scum FOS their partner while knowing an eventual massclaim would be inevitable?

[neko2086]

OF, the difference between Crazy not knowing the scumtell and you not knowing it is that you knew you didn't know it, while Crazy, I still believe, thought he knew what it was. Crazy said lots of weird things, and putting them in bold might look like you're making a good case, but in context, you're just harping on old news.

Crazy assumed the town knew something the scum didn't, so if he and Adel were thinking the same thing, of course he'd think Adel was town.

[neko2086]

Why aren't you asking your lover? After all, that is the only person who you can be sure of their alignment.


OF, I see your point. I think both your arguments, however, are going nowhere.

[neko2086]

Trying to dissuade an argument while acknowledging both sides is scummy.

No, I just think both your arguments are a bit petty. His just contains less accurate information.

[neko2086]

My lover is sekinj.

It's hot.

[neko2086]

Still rereading w/ loverpairs in mind. In the meantime:

Another thing, what's with everyone saying "OMG DBE PUT ICEMAN AT L-1 SCUM SCUM SCUM?"

I think the idea was that Darla could have been a scumbuddy trying to jump on the bus pretty easily.

So, kloud1516, do you expect me to answer all of your questions right off the bat?

Why would you ask this? This just sounds like scum trying to deflect attention.

Anyway, I thought he had a pretty good analysis, but I'm wondering why he'd make a FOS and even a reFOS rather than just drop a vote, unless his pwnz case is his least convincing one.

I think the fact that it doesn't include a vote is a towntell or maybe a bussing tell.

I wouldn't limit it to those two options, actually. Depends on what he does next.


Pwnz, why are you voting Knight? I think Crazy's and Knight's posts are full of bad logic, but I don't think intentionally so. Nothing in your posting history shows any intention for voting him so it looks like an OMGUS vote.

[neko2086]

Ugh, simpulpost. I need to look over OF and wolf again. OF, it seems that you've already decided Crazy is scum and you're just looking for reasons why. You're making lots of assumptions here. In fact, your first two points on Crazy are based entirely on assumptions. Your 'evidence,' I think, is taken out of context so that it conveniently fits your assumptions.

[neko2086]

During rereads, I noticed that the HP/Cerebus team seemed to offer the most defense for the iceman/fire pair. I keep reading Cerebus’s question about what started the firestarter wagon wrong, though, and I’m thinking RR is doing the same. It doesn’t seem so scummy when taken in context.

I don't see the case on AJ/dybeck/kloud as very strong other than just telling people they're wrong. I think one instance of AJ doing this was in reference to dybeck, so, that would make sense anyway. They're not high on my list.

OF and wolf - The case against Crazy is just filled with bad info. OF is taking everything out of context, from Crazy's early viewing of Adel as town, to Crazy's enlisting of Adel's support now. I think it may have been somewhat lazy for Crazy to ask Adel to push the wagon more, but I don't think there is necessarily anything scummy about it. I don't see Crazy using Adel as a crutch, as OF would have us believe.

vote: OpposedForce

btw, We should start consolidating votes. There are currently votes for both HP and cerebus, as well as Knight and Crazy.

[neko2086]

Why can a wagon not be restarted? Once a wagon dies, that person is lynch-immune? I agree that from what I skimmed of OF's post, it seemed like he was making quite a bit of assumptions, but I don't see how trying to start a wagon again is scummy in itself, especially when people only got off Crazy's wagon to pursue other's that were more scummy.

Wagons can most certainly be restarted, and they should be,

provided it was a decent wagon to begin with

.

Also, that's not the only reason people left the Crazy wagon. It started falling apart after the scumtell thing was sorted out.

Since then, OF has championed the Crazy case with plain bad info. I may have been willing to accredit it to misinformed town play, but he's insisting on things like 'Crazy is assuming Adel is town,' which is just taking statements out of context.


I personally don't care if Armlx posts every single note he makes in his rereads, but some of it

will

be irrelevant. That's just what happens when you do it that way. I prefer to compile my notes, edit, and present what's new, and relevant, and not likely to get the response "tl;dr."


Why are we still not consolidating votes? If you are voting for somebody, and somebody else is voting their lover, your cause has no unity (much like the American Democrats). This should worry you, and it worries me that it's apparently not worrying you, especially with a deadline approaching.

[neko2086]

Do people not understand the importance of consolidating votes at deadline? I'm wondering if some people are voting the second lover to show commitment to a vote w/o having to incriminate themselves by being on a lynch.

AJ and kloud are lovers. Only one of them should have votes.

Crazy and knight are lovers. Only one of them should have votes.


Reviewing the case on Harvey Pew and cerebus. Harvey's vote placement just boggles my mind.

[neko2086]

Crazy and knight are lovers. Only one of them should have votes.

Sorry, but given my analysis so far: Rofl.

BM

?

[neko2086]

Crazy, do you think Ceph is scum because he said he forgot what he thought Adel's scumtell was? Or because he doesn't like the OF case? or what? because I don't see you addressing him that much ever prior to this.

[neko2086]

Are you serious? The scum had more reason to care what it was in the first place. If anything, it makes him more likely to be town. People forget things that don't concern them that much. It's frickin' human nature.

How would his forgetting it make him scum?

[neko2086]

If it comes down between HP/Cerebus and AJ/kloud, I'll vote the former. Harvey's last vote is disconcerting, and the case against them is decent. I'm not as convinced that AJ and kloud are scum, but I would like to ask kloud if he's going to commit to something. Even after your case against pwnz and your saying RR pretty much summed up your thoughts on the others, no vote from you yet.

[neko2086]

Just realized that if harvey and cerebus vote kloud, he'll have the majority.

unvote; vote: cerebus

[neko2086]

vote:HP

I've made a couple points about HP, but not a full case.

HP, any reason you didn't vote yesterday? You were voting AJ when the wagon was on kloud, then you never voted kloud. Why?


Knight, looking back I don't see any comments from you about kloud or AJ. Did I miss it, or can you tell me why you're not happy they were lynched?

[neko2086]

Knight, looking back I don't see any comments from you about kloud or AJ. Did I miss it, or can you tell me why you're not happy they were lynched?

[neko2086]

But if you're town, and you thought AJ and kloud were scum, wouldn't you be concerned that you could be lynched over them? The wagons were very close, after all.

[neko2086]

It makes it

unlikely

that crazy is scum, but in no way does it confirm him as town.

That is not so much the issue as it is Harvey has thrown together a hodgepodge of vague statements as an excuse for a case, in addition to concerns raised yesterday.

[neko2086]

That's bad logic. The point is, for me to be scum, I would have had to have been pretending to be stupid, because I would have had to know that they daytalk tell would fail.

Now tell me, as scum, why the heck would I do that?

See, it would be stupid, but not impossible. I mean, ever heard of a scum gambit?

[neko2086]

KoC is saying that Darox and RR are probably mafia partners because that's the only way a person could think they could account for somebody else's actions who isn't their lover.

His quote is being taken way out of context though. His former lover, OF, was being attacked along with RR. He said OF has been absent for some time and is being replaced, then he said that he can't account for RR's actions.

I read this as "Well I don't know about RR, but OF hasn't been around..."

To call it a slip is a little bit of a stretch.

[neko2086]

Toaster strudel isn't inspiring any more confidence than pwnz did so far.

Actually, I think I'd put Cerebus even lower on the list. He kind of proved that he was town (to me, anyway, since my logic sounds like crap to everyone but me) when he *headdesked* after I gave a hint about my scum-tell.

I do not understand how that makes you think he's town. Can you explain?

[neko2086]

Wait, am I missing something? I had to go back and try to figure out what the hell BM is talking about.

BM recently said this:

My role is to find scum. I've found it. As far as i can see, i've made a damn good start. Now, i've given my reasoning, and it's the turn of those who disagree to explain WHY.

This is how he explained his original vote on Crazy:

To be frank, i don't think a 'case' as such is entirely necessary. Just about everyone here should have some sort of awareness of the case on Crazy. Anyone who doesn't, needs to be shot.

BM, can you tell us what you've read that makes you so certain Crazy is scum?

[neko2086]

BM, I did miss that post. I saw the quote box and assumed it was somebody else's text. I forgot you quoted yourself. I'll review the post numbers you quoted, but I don't think the case is as obvious as you'd like to think.

BM, the above post against crazy seems to ignore the fact Iceman later flipped town.

What game have you been playing?

[neko2086]

Daytalk posting is obviously going to be helpful. I like the idea of popcorn style. That, or somebody that knows how to use the dice tags should just start randomly picking somebody.


BM's case, in which Crazy is so obviously scum we're all idiots for not lynching him yet:

Post 162 stands in favour,

The tell isn't about being experienced, Iceman. It's about being town. And no, I can't justify my statement without revealing what the tell is, but anybody that does realize what it is can easily see how your posts show that you don't know what it is.

Ah, you see, this makes me think

you're

pretending to know what it is. Unless something was missing from role PM.

I know what it is. You don't and are pretending to. Die scum.

Aside from being overly confident, I don't see how this makes Crazy obvscum.

177=yuck. Crazy is too scummy for words. 0.o

You didn't say what was 'yuck' about it, but here it is:

What I see is Crazy defending adel as town as well as the scumtell. Adel isn't even confirmed town and Crazy is already assuming she is and following the scumtell. Attacking a person for a statement from someone and stating their town is pretty scummy.

This is stupid. Look at it my way:

-Adel knows about said scum-tell and made a point to actually bring it up.
-I have a feeling I know what she is talking about, so a secret scum-tell

does

actually exist.

The only way that Adel is scum is the following:

Adel made up the fact that there is a secret-scumtell and somehow got lucky since there actually

is

one.

I am about 90% sure Adel is town. I am about equally sure Iceman is scum. This post I quoted a second ago really settles it:

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

Here he says that he has an idea what we're talking about, correct? Yet he's still voting me for pretending that this scum-tell exists. If he

really

has this idea that he states, why would he still be voting me?

Defending someone for a good reason is not scummy. Attacking someone for a good reason is not scummy. You must see Iceman's hypocrisy there. Even if you don't see the tell, you should be able to see that.

I think it is called buddying up. Is it worth a vote?

I'm not buddying up. I don't even like you.

Perhaps you'd like to tell us what it is you don't like about this post, but if it has to do with Crazy writing off Adel as town, that's already been discussed.

In post 250, Pwnz makes the greatest observation of the game, when he references post 147, in which Iceman reveals knowledge of Crazy and Farside being lovers. Confirm Vote: Crazy

This is not the only instance of somebody guessing lovers. In fact, I don't think Ice was the only one who had those two pegged as lovers, as they were following each other very closely.

BM's last point is about Crazy's self vote. That doesn't sit entirely well with me either, but, it doesn't make for a strong case either way without getting into WIFOM. I don't know why BM thinks of it as martyr talk in relation to Ice, though. Can you explain, BM?

My main question for you, BM, is how these points are so compelling that they outweigh any other arguments to such a great degree. It just doesn't seem that obvious to me, and I'm certainly not the only one. You keep insisting, however, that it is such an airtight case, that you don't even need to read the rest of the game. You say nobody has addressed your points. Well, you had them buried in a quote box, and your points were very generic ("yuck," like that's all you have to say and we'll figure it out).

Thank you in advance for responses.

[neko2086]

I'm anxious to see what the BM/CWR team actually posts for daytalk (as well as how long it takes them to do it). Wanting to reread everything before posting daytalk is a joke.

I've got comments on other daytalk once everyone posts theirs.

[neko2086]

vote: BM

They've had plenty of time to post daytalk. Clock is obviously trying to stall because BM hasn't posted anything, and Clock doesn't know what happened until he's done rereading. He is probably scrambling to skim through and create some sort of daytalk right now. This is exactly the sort of thing this daytalk-posting is designed to catch.


Thoughts on other daytalk:
Thad's and DBE's daytalk is pretty sparse, but, considering how little DBE has been here, I suppose that makes sense.

RR's and WWB's is thorough, and as far as I can tell, believable and accurate. Very protown vibes from them.

Armlx and SP- even more sparse. The lack of dt before armlx makes sense due to pacman's nonexistence in the game, but the lack of dt upon his arrival is questionable.

Darox et al.- lines up with OF's and wolf's comments throughout the game. See, Darox has successfully paraphrased his predecessors' daytalk. Clock is failing to do the same.

Ceph and Charter- Not sold on the believability of their dt, but maybe it's just because of the style in which it was written? I do note, however, how defensive Charter is getting over it. Leagues away from Clock, but should be watched.

Crazy and KoC- very similar to C&C in style. I see no reason that this dt is any more believable than theirs, really.

Clock and BM still need to post something, and TS/adelreplacer do as well unless I missed it.

[neko2086]

what do you expect pro-town players to be day talking about? What information do they have that would be better off hidden?

I would assume that everyone would take advantage of the opportunity to share thoughts and check their suspicions against their partner's to see what they agree on, and what they don't. Sek and I have disagreed on a few things, but we've at least been able to get some feedback from somebody we know is guarenteed to be town. You don't get that with many other games.

[neko2086]

Did somebody slip crazy pills in my enchilada, or is BM not the most obvious lynch ever?

Seriously, can those of you on the Charter wagon please explain how he is scummier than the guy who replaced into a role and refuses to paraphrase that role's daytalk until he's read the thread?


TS, daytalk would be much appreciated right now. Posting without providing daytalk that has been requested (and posting something very generic and completely unhelpful to boot), is tantamount to a refusal to do so.

[neko2086]

Charter is being even more defensive, yes, and offering terrible appeals to emotion, yes, but BM/CWR are pretty much confirmed scum and should be priority lynch in my eyes. I've yet to see any good reason offered as to why a townie replacement would need to reread before paraphrasing daytalk. Also, I've yet to see anyone even disagree that they're scum!!!

vote: BM

Also, are we just letting this pass for scumhunting?:

Lynch charter today because he has more votes and you all know I've wanted him lynched for a while, and BM/Clockwork tomorrow. Clockwork wanting to read rather than post daytalk is mega-scummy.

I fear that we won't get another chance to lynch charter... and BM is the obvious lynch tomorrow

I'm getting the feeling that since most people think you're likely town, you think you can get away with saying anything.

[neko2086]

Charter is also confirmed scum more or less at this point

OK, but more or less so than BM/CWR?

[neko2086]

BM, it's your scumpartner that refused to post daytalk until he reread the thread. He came under fire for it and hasn't posted since. So, daytalk now, please.


For clarification: Considering D1 circumstances, Crazy is most likely town. It seems, though, that the Crazy/KoC lover team is using that to their advantage and posting lots of crap.

[neko2086]

Sorry, i've been really busy this week. I'm getting caught up now.

[neko2086]

I definately think bm/cw should post daytalk. Although I'm not sure it is necessarily something scum would do to hold back on revealing it. If they wanted to remain out of the spotlight it would make more sense to fabricate it.

Of course it would make sense to fabricate it, but that involves

taking the time

to fabricate it, yes? Remember how CWR refused to reveal their daytalk until he reread the thread? Can you please (Darox, DGB, you as well) tell me how this is consistent with townie behavior? Can you tell me what a townie with valid townie daytalk could possibly gain by reading the thread before revealing daytalk? I've yet to see any explanation.

Bah, maybe it's too late for this now, but...

if me and ceph are lynched, will you then proceed to lynch armlx and then RR the next two days?

No.

If BM/CWR are lynched today, are you just going to lynch me and ceph tomorrow?

With recent developments, not necessarily.

Also, I would say that questions are almost always useful unless they do not relate to the game. Just my opinion.

I say that no one should even answer him.

Who put you in charge?

But if he won't even bother to take the time to answer questions, why should we answer his?

Even if everyone answers, will he actually start doing something? Probably not.

Why? Because it's the protown thing to do, isn't it? You get on his case for not answering questions and then you won't do the same? Way to take the high road.
Also, you are starting to make assumptions (italicized portion).


BM needs to be lynched. Consider mine a protest vote.


Thad, why are you still voting Crazy?

[neko2086]

So are we just lining up policy lynches now?

since Neko has been my top town read and Sekinj has been my top scum read

Really? That's not what I've seen from you.

I pick Battle Mage out of those 3 pairs since he is the most likely to be scum, anyway

Vote: charter

I'm not letting this lynch go down the toilet. He's been one of my top suspects since Day 1. We can lynch BM tomorrow.

BM/CWR has been my second pick after Charter/Ceph for a while now.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but before the daytalk was posted, Sek was only on your radar once early on in the game (sometime before your self-vote). So, if she's been your top scum pick this whole time, why let others get in the way? I know you've pegged me as most town, but it seems that if you

really

thought she was scum, it wouldn't have mattered who her partner was. This is part of a discussion that happened early on in the game, I suppose.

[neko2086]

Swingers would be a group of four right? It could be just a joke and she did make it in the game thread, but odd still.

Swingers would be a couple that trades partners with other couples. You know this, and you actually played into this ongoing joke of ours if I remember right, so I don't know why it's worrying you now.

He dedicated an entire post to laughing?

Is that really that weird? On quicktopic? Can we note that crazy and KoC have dedicated multiple posts on

this

thread to inanity?

To me this entire discussion on scumhunting reads more like Mafia trying to find werewolves then town tring to find scum.

Why? Because I happened to speculate that Adel might be the other werewolf? At that point it was easier to look for a scumpartner than the second scumteam.

[neko2086]

The way his daytalk was hastily thrown together, I would not at all be surprised if he just picked somebody else's (other than his scumpartner's) start time to make it believable.


BM's partner could easily have picked a later time as well. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

[neko2086]

SCUM ARMLX/SLEEPYPANDA

Just make sure you lynch them after me, I'm not going to make a huge case because no one will listen to me anyway, pretty much the whole reason I haven't said anything of merit for a while now, but rest assured that they are, in fact, scum.

Wow. Assumptions, appeal to emotion, and opinion passed off as fact all in one statement. Impressive.

vote: Charter

-BM had the time 9:42.
-He was mafia.
-Mafia have the same times.
-You were the only other person with the time 9:42.

Not 100% proven

, but it's certainly better than anything else.

Sekinj is scum. It's proven. Lynch him. Now.

So which is it?

[neko2086]

You don't know whether or not we've claimed lovers, and you basically admitted you're not Charter's lover?

[neko2086]

I sat through 100 pages of this shit to get lynched by timestamp?

Good luck tomorrow, town. Look at charter and ThAd, please.

[neko2086]

It was an unfortunate oversight, but if I had done the 'paraphrased' daytalk, I would have done the same thing. It never occured to me to change the timestamp.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sore about the ending, but it was still a fun game. Sek did a great job with the daytalk and keeping Walt at bay with the excel business. Best lover ever!

Armlx and SP, great job as well. I didn't really ever suspect you that much.

See ya'll next time!

[neko2086]

From a scum pov, daytalking is obviously useful for strategizing.

For the town, considering that you rarely get to be 100% sure of somebody's alignment in mafia games, the daytalking gives you the advantage of safely hashing out ideas with each other.

There was an argument about this during the game somewhere, and somebody said you could just do that in-thread, but then you're not sure if the people accepting or rejecting your ideas are town or scum,

and

if your idea is really crappy, somebody might use it as an argument against you. Your lover, on the other hand, could point out a grave oversight before your ideas are posted in-thread.

So yeah, I think it's useful.