Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[Knight of Cydonia]

Indeed I do. And once I've had time to read up, I'll post a brief LoS. Expect it about 9pm GMT.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Wow. well, this was going to be a full LoS, but I'd actually like to have a focused look at forbiddan light.

First 2-3 pages, she makes a couple of random votes, removes them fairly quickly (fair enough, you might say, since they were random), then starts a small off-shoot convo into the value of the random votes.
She then self-votes. Now, I haven't played with forbiddan, so I have nothing meta to go on, but I have played around 25 games of Mafia/Mafia variants on other forums (none as good as this one), and if experience tells me anything, it's that a self-voter, who then pulls the vote off themselves as soon as a wagon looks like forming, is going to be scum.

My thoughts are out there, that's one of the most important things a mislynchee can do. I can only hope you find the scum with the help of my analysis or something.

Seriously, rereading this, I'm not surprised I'm being voted. Hell, if I weren't me, I'd be voting me for this stuff. The only problem is the fact I am me and know I'm town.

I also don't like the way she keeps reiterating she's going to be a mislynchee - it seems like that's her only defence. She's also tried to pass it off as 'a plan'... well I think it was a plan, but it was one to reverse-psych us out.
And if you want some final, damning evidence (IMHO):

I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can vote K7 over me looking over my actions. I'm glad you didn't, but it does make me wary.

Okay, I'm sorry, but

what?

This is reverse-psych play at it's finest, IMHO. Classic WIFOM. We're all supposed to think "Oh, surely a Mafia player wouldn't want us to vote them!"

Vote: forbiddanlight

[Knight of Cydonia]

I honestly think if the town doesn't lynch forbidden after quite possibly the scummiest first day I ever did see, we're screwed. Anyone who acts this scummy as town is a hindrance, and anyone who acts so blatantly obvious as scum is a gift.

And like my mum says, never refuse a gift. Because you can always get store credit.

[Knight of Cydonia]

anyone who acts this way as town is a hindrance

Quite frankly, m'dear, if you are town, I'd be almost as happy to see you go. You're doing nothing by playing this way other than helping the Mafia.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Which is why I don't worry as much about what he's saying. His vote is warranted, but I figured I'd point out the part where

he's stating that he'd be happy to see me go even as town.

That's NOT good, at all. But either way, I can't make much of it since my play has been horrid this game, so I just point it out so that it might be examined later.

I'm really glad you responded like this, forbiddan. Before, I had a 1% suspicion you might have been town. Now, it's somewhere around 0.00001%.
You've rather cleverly misinterpreted my post there. I said that I was pretty damn sure that you were scum, but that if you were town, you're doing us no help. I at no point said *bolded part*, I just stated that it makes no sense for a town player to do this, since it only helps the Mafia, and that if you were town, it wouldn't be a loss. I never said I was lynching you without caring if you were town or scum, which is what you've tried to imply.

[Knight of Cydonia]

He does have an opinion... it just happens to be the same as 4 or 5 other people's at any given time.

Quote:
Quite frankly, m'dear, if you are town, I'd be almost as happy to see you go. You're doing nothing by playing this way other than helping the Mafia.


Um...bolded part...your bolded part of my quote says exactly this...I think you are stretching.

And now you're stretching. I said I'd be almost as happy. That doesn't mean I'm voting for you whether or not you're town - it means if you aren't scum, you're screwing up our first lynch, and it's better than we find out what you are now, than let you confuse us further, when it's down to 4/5 to lynch.

[Knight of Cydonia]

It certainly looks like a initial strategy that went wrong, to me. I think fl is almost certainly (99.9999% sure) scum, and if so, I'd suggest having a big look at killa's reaction in 1.5. They've both played a lot of WIFOM throughout the day, so I'd say they look a lot like a pair trying to play a strategy. Killa, I'm less certain of than fl, but only because he's been a bit quiet - I'm actually leaning town with him, if only because I think he realised that his trying to draw aggro players out isn't necessarily going to draw out the family. I think it's most likely that if fl is scum(and I'm sure she is), so is he, though.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Wow, did fl call in the cavalry to distract us, or something? Or is this just manito completely misreading every post Faerie makes for the fun of it?

[Knight of Cydonia]

It's KoC, not KC. The day we forget the humble 'of' is the day I keel over and get raped by a panda. I don't call you Athenian, do I?

A SECRET RECIPE OF ELEVEN HERBS AND SPICES

forbiddanlight - 8 (killa seven, armlx, SpyreX, Manito, Corinthian, Knight of Cydonia, Joubert, CF Riot)
LaptopGun - 1 (Bogre)
Gimbo - 1 (dcorbe)
Joubert - 1 (ShadowGirl)
CF Riot - 1 (forbiddanlight)

Not Voting - FaerieLord, LaptopGun, Gimbo, Firestarter

16 alive, 9 to lynch.

-Mod

[Knight of Cydonia]

Yeah, look, fl, we all know you're scum, or the most retarded townie ever, so stop trying to throw crap out there to try and get a townie lynch day 1.5.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I'd hardly call that a personal attack. I can make one if you'd like, just to make you feel special. Oh, and I've been a Muse fan since the first album. But this is all pointless crap, so maybe shut up.

[Knight of Cydonia]

You see, this is what annoys me most. Not the fact your only defences are "Oh, it was a plan, honest!" and "You'll be sorry when I flip town", it's the fact you're giving up already. If you were honestly town, you'd be fighting tooth and nail at L-1. Why aren't you? I've seen innocents turn a L-1 on them into a successful scum-lynch before, so saying it's a no-hoper is out of the question.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I don't think it's as black and white as that, SpyreX. Looking at it as "You didn't vote because you wanted to avoid people looking at you!" can go on into a WIFOM chain long enough to tow the Earth back form the Medusa Cascade. If fl had been playing normally as opposed to a crap, one-dimensional complete-lack-of-defence, then we could look at the votes to see what's what. As it is, she probably fooled as many townies as she made goons happy. For now, based on yesterday, I will FoS Killa7, simply because he quite happily went completely AWOL while forbiddan dug herself a deeper and deeper hole, turning up only when it was a near certainty she would be lynched.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Okay, from what I've read of Gimbo (Yes, I got quite bored, so I went back and dug up some meta) the louder, more arsey, and less coherent he posts get, the more likely he is to be scum. So, by that reasoning:

Vote: Gimbo

For a poorly-reasoned hammer (although others may have done the same, but at least they'd give reasons), and because he's been really scummy after that.

[Knight of Cydonia]

We need to look at those who hopped on the wagon, positions like 5-9, IMO.

It was too quick for my liking.

Um... what? Considering the scummy looking players we have elsewhere, I think a policy lynch based on who voted last isn't such a good idea.

It's funny that you're "pretty" sure on me, with all this amazing "evidence" you seem to have fabricated in your head, yet when there was pages upon pages of discussion about fobiddanlight that had you so non-committal even though your "common sense stated she was scummy". Which are you following in your vote for me - common sense or your gut?

A little personal at the end, but it's a good point. There was a lot more conclusive-looking evidence against fl than there ever has been against Manito - the only problem I can see is that, yes, early on, he did parrot other's opinions. Could just be he was agreeing anyway, could be trying to get an easy lynch, but if we voted anyone who agreed with someone else, we'd never lynch anyone.

This kinna annoys me. I have two posts full of information to digest, one of which has 3 PbPas and people are saying I didn't post information.

Also, yes, I did distance myself to a certain extent. Now that you understand my common sense vs gut vote, you can see why.

Like Manito says, all of these opinions and much of the information boils down to "Oh, I have a bad feeling about him" - looking through, it reads more like a wall of text than anything coherent or useful.

Right now, I'm torn between FL, Gimbo and K7. FL has gone kind of schizo in regards to his earlier comments about how he "rarely votes", but apparently his common sense beat his gut up, or something, because he'll vote now. Gimbo's hammer was... excited, but it might just be he doesn't get to hammer an awful lot. Pretty much all his posts are easy to take as scum or over-eager town, which makes it hard to judge him. And K7, simply for his part in the forbiddan fiasco, and the way he went to ground as soon as the lynch looked certain - and look, he's popped back up now that things don't look so dicey, and he can hide behind this FL/Manito gig.
For now, I'll

unvote

, simply because I'm not sure which of you is scummier.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Well, there's the issue, FL. Don't shorten your points to make them concise - I think it's fair to say everyone here is possessed of a decent intellect (With the possible exclusion of Gimbo, but the jury's out there...), so please, if you don't want to be accused of not making decent points, say it all, you don't need to boil anything down. I'd rather read a long, wordy post that clearly states what you think about who, than have to interpret short, easy posts. In fact, I'm actually leaning town on you now, simply because you've started: a) posting good, long, thought-out, non-OMGUS posts, and b) you're not just saying "Oh, I have a bad feeling".
Which leaves Gimbo, who to be honest only worries me because his hammer wasn't reasoned, and the fact that 324 ("shit") could really be interpreted either way; and Killa7... well. I think pretty much everything has been said that matters about K7. He draws fl into self-voting, then sticks his vote in, and disappears, making only a couple of trivial posts, until, just before Gimbo's hammer:

Well, don't self-vote, unless you're scum.

Now, to me, this looks like he's not sure if fl was scum or not - which doesn't make sense if he is scum, unless it's a bit of WIFOM on his part. It's certainly odd, considering his vote is on her at this point, and hasn't moved since it was put there.
The one question I want to raise here, and I want an answer from K7 on, is: Why was your vote on fl at all, if, as this post suggests, you weren't sure/didn't think she was scum, unless you knew she was town?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Wow, you know what, no bad feelings towards Gimbo, but wow. If this is what we get when we kick Gimbo, we need to do it more often. Simply because you're no longer acting like an arse, Llama, and removed that massive parting OMGUS from Gimbo, you're not half as big as you were on my scum-dar. Which leaves Faerie Lord and K7, who I will reserve judgement on until he actually turns up (has he, yet? prod, maybe?)

Manito, please, while your viewpoint may be valid, I don't appreciate the constant sniping. There's a difference between a valid debate and a snipe-fest, and you're walking the line. You can get your points across perfectly well without "/chuckle"'s.
That said, your... somewhat belligerent offensive has worked. FL has changed completely from Day 1 - if he was town, I'd expect him to have been more consistent in voting style, instead of jumping in feet-first, a complete change from "I vote rarely." So, I will

Vote: FaerieLord

for schizophrenia, wall-of-texting to try and avoid questions, and the way his calm demeanour has completely cracked under any kind of pressure.

[Knight of Cydonia]

And this is what I don't like, and not because it is on me. First of all, I have not been avoiding any questions. Please direct me to any question I have dodged. Secondly, tell me how my posting style has changed? At best it's slightly more aggressive, but I am still pretty calm. Also, since when is wall of texting a scum tell?

As any good Mafia player knows, there's a difference between posting a response, and actually answering points levied at you. Looking back, almost all of you replies to Manito's queries have been "I already answered this", and then a really hasty-looking line summarising, which often doesn't properly answer the question. You then got annoyed when people continued to ask those questions.

(368) KOC votes FL, I dont like how he dismisses K7 due to inactivity though. Lurking does not change alignment.

I said I was going to put K7 aside for a moment - there's not much point in questioning someone who's lurking until they begin to make a commitment to the game.
Speaking of which, K7 has only posted about 5 posts that are more than a sentence long, and they seem to be perfectly placed just as people start thinking
about a prod. Lurking in open sight anyone?
K7, I want a full analysis, if not of the whole day, then at least of 1.5 so far from you, and preferably an LoS of some kind, even if it's just a couple of people that you really suspect. I will begin to look at voting you if you continue to lurk like this.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Perhaps I should make that first statement clearer - that one-line summary isn't actually summarising an earlier answer - it's just ad-libbed, in most cases, and barely answers most questions, if at all.

[Knight of Cydonia]

By really scummy, I mean the way he popped up, drew fl into the light, made sure she had a few votes, then laid down a mid-group vote, so as not to appear to be hammering or just wagoning. Ever since the fl lynch, he's gone to ground, posted about 4 times, and instead of actually defending himself, he's just said "Oh... um... Gimbo looks bad, yeah, for teh same reasons everyone else has given... and um... I'm gonna look at FaerieLord because everyone else is..."
Right now, It just looks to me like he's trying to lurk in the crowd, posting statements full of nothingness to avoid a prod, which would make us look at him again.

[Knight of Cydonia]

My third suspect would be Knight of Cydonia

Wow. well, this was going to be a full LoS, but I'd actually like to have a focused look at forbiddan light.

Nice tunnel vision to enter the game with. While having a clear suspect is never a bad thing, we now have no idea of your inital thoughts on most players, on most arguments and ideas, on other wagons. We just know you want forbiddan dead. The way this is said also implies a later return to look at other players, which never did happen. D1 you spent just about the whole time pushing for a fobiddan lynch.

...Yes, I did tunnel into the start of the game a bit, so what? I considered forbiddan to be the most scummy - indeed, pretty much the only person at that point to have posted any kind of scum-tell.. And if you actually look at my posts, you'll see I also took a look at killa7, my other main suspect. All I'd be doing by posting what I think of everyone else is repeating "I'm not sure, hasn't seemed scummy yet" another 14 times.

I honestly think if the town doesn't lynch forbidden after quite possibly the scummiest first day I ever did see, we're screwed. Anyone who acts this scummy as town is a hindrance, and anyone who acts so blatantly obvious as scum is a gift.

And like my mum says, never refuse a gift. Because you can always get store credit.

anyone who acts this way as town is a hindrance

Quite frankly, m'dear, if you are town, I'd be almost as happy to see you go. You're doing nothing by playing this way other than helping the Mafia.

Now, I have to side with what forbiddan said here. These two quotes to me basically boil down to the following statement -

"I think you are scum, but as a townie you dont have much use, so lynching you isnt horrible either way"

I have seen this debate a few times, and my position is always the same. A townie who is not too good is still a townie. They are still a body that mafia needs to get lynched, NK or endgame. Killing off someone because they are not a good player is handing scum a free pass for the day.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you wanted fl kept around to confuse us for the next lynch, and the next, and the next.[/n]

It certainly looks like a initial strategy that went wrong, to me. I think fl is almost certainly (99.9999% sure) scum, and if so, I'd suggest having a big look at killa's reaction in 1.5. They've both played a lot of WIFOM throughout the day, so I'd say they look a lot like a pair trying to play a strategy. Killa, I'm less certain of than fl, but only because he's been a bit quiet - I'm actually leaning town with him, if only because I think he realised that his trying to draw aggro players out isn't necessarily going to draw out the family. I think it's most likely that if fl is scum(and I'm sure she is), so is he, though.

First of all I

hate

with a passion people who do the 99% scum stuff, this is always bull to make your case just look better. The rest of this post is ripe with contradiction though. At first KOC says that fobiddan is scum (grr) and given that she is scum, we should take a close look at K7 tomorrow because he thinks that they were playing very similary. At the same time though, you have a town read on K7. You train of thought goes forbiddan scum -> K7 scum. So why do you say that K7 is town? You again finish with forbiddan and K7 are scum. What is K7 and why?

Wow, way to completely misread my post. I said I was less certain of killa than fl, and that I was leaning towards town on him, not that he was town. I would have been leaning town on him still, if he wasn't lurking so deliberately. And if you're calling me picking out forbiddan as scum as a tell, you have 8 other players, including yourself, to look at.

Yeah, look, fl, we all know you're scum, or the most retarded townie ever, so stop trying to throw crap out there to try and get a townie lynch day 1.5.

Tunnel vision and personal attacks... words exchanged that make both players look a little assy.

You're calling this a point? At this point, when the majority of the town thought forbiddan was scum, you're calling this a tell? Hindsight is a wonderful thing now, but back then, it looked like forbiddan was trying to implicate people in order to drag someone down with her.

I don't think it's as black and white as that, SpyreX. Looking at it as "You didn't vote because you wanted to avoid people looking at you!" can go on into a WIFOM chain long enough to tow the Earth back form the Medusa Cascade. If fl had been playing normally as opposed to a crap, one-dimensional complete-lack-of-defence, then we could look at the votes to see what's what. As it is, she probably fooled as many townies as she made goons happy. For now, based on yesterday, I will FoS Killa7, simply because he quite happily went completely AWOL while forbiddan dug herself a deeper and deeper hole, turning up only when it was a near certainty she would be lynched.

Defends people who werent voting (good) and then FoSs K7 for lurking (not as good) it would be nice to see a case to back this up a bit.

Well, he was lurking, and it was being done very cleverly, posting fluff just enough to avoid a prod, whilst still managing to lure forbiddan into that lynch. That was my case - he's lurking, and deliberately avoiding attention. We have no good roles, AFAIK, so the only explanation to lurk is as scum.

Here he bounces around between Gimbo, K7 and FL. As of 351, FL gets an annoyed read, Gimbo townish, and K7 as scummiest seeming.

That said, your... somewhat belligerent offensive has worked. FL has changed completely from Day 1 - if he was town, I'd expect him to have been more consistent in voting style, instead of jumping in feet-first, a complete change from "I vote rarely." So, I will

Vote: FaerieLord

for schizophrenia, wall-of-texting to try and avoid questions, and the way his calm demeanour has completely cracked under any kind of pressure.

Finally a bit of a case with a vote. I may not agree with a FL scum read, but its something. Again though it really isnt a novel idea though. Out of his three suspects, gimbo got replaced which alleviated suspicion there, and K7 really wasnt moving towards a lynch. It seems as if he took the safest vote and parroted the reasons for it here.

Agreeing with a case isn't parroting. And I was the first to comment on the way his posting style has changed from calm to relatively aggro.

I said I was going to put K7 aside for a moment - there's not much point in questioning someone who's lurking until they begin to make a commitment to the game.
Speaking of which, K7 has only posted about 5 posts that are more than a sentence long, and they seem to be perfectly placed just as people start thinking
about a prod. Lurking in open sight anyone?

This again bugs me a little. If you have a scum read on K7, which given forbiddan flipping town I am a little surprised at, you should follow up your lead. You can ask questions to lurkers, vote lurkers and ask the mod to prod lurkers.

I can't ask for a prod when he's lurking in open sight, which is what he's doing. He's posting, just with absolutely no content, barely a line or two. He's also completely ignored several questions I've asked of him - or do those not find your strung together case?

Overall though with KOC, I get a very scummy D1 play, and a more neutral D2 play, which is the only real reason I have him below Corin on my suspicion list.

FoS Knight of Cydonia

even though I still love that song, long time Muse fan.

I am now open to questions and comments since I feel fully caught up so fire away

Oh, and if you're accusing me of avoiding your case, why didn't you vote Corinthian ahead of me, since he too didn't answer your case immediately, and was apparently higher on your list? Looking for an easy target?

[Knight of Cydonia]

I can't ask for a prod when he's lurking in open sight, which is what he's doing. He's posting, just with absolutely no content, barely a line or two. He's also completely ignored several questions I've asked of him - or do those not find your strung together case?

Why not?

Because he is posting, it's just he's doing the bare minimum. If I asked for a prod, I'd probably be told "Killa7 is posting, don't waste my time."

[Knight of Cydonia]

You not only managed to ignore the case I laid out against you, but also OMGUSed me a bit. I still don’t think you have answered the questions that CFR presented to you as well. Because of all that, I voted you so I would finally get your attention and it worked.

Ummm, okay, where the hell did I OMGUS you? I haven't voted you or Gimbo, and all I ever commented on Gimbo was that he was hard to read, and that the reason-less hammer and "shit" post could be taken a variety of ways. I said I was unsure of Gimbo, and the same goes for you, and everyone else here, since I haven't played regularly with any of you, and have no meta to go on.
I will answer that CFR post, but not right now - I'm going to the cinema in about 15 minutes, and don't have time to read through and post properly.
And if that vote was to get my attention, then why does it still need to be there? I've answered your queries, I'll answer CFR's next post - attention grabbed. Or are you trying to start up a wagon here, waiting for your partners to build it up to 3 votes, level with FL?

You posted after I put up my case.

I'm not psychic. I can't refute your case before you post it. At least I've replied, Corinthian hasn't posted in so long he needs to be prodded. BY your logic, you should be voting him because he's higher on your list (apparently), and to get his attention.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Lastly, I have a new suspect in Knight of Cydonia. His attitude during the Forbid lynch seemed over-the-top. Now the way he changes his vote from Gimbo to FL seems out of place to me. In post 348 he says he's noticed how FL's play has changed since yesterday, but says he's still torn because he's "hard to judge". This is where he unvotes Gimbo. His next post is 351 and he says he's leaning town on FL because he has good posting under the new heat. But then right after that with only one 1-line post from FL in between, he votes FL for "schizophrenia, wall-of-texting to try and avoid questions, and the way his calm demeanour has completely cracked under any kind of pressure. " Two of those being things he'd said weren't that scummy two posts ago.

"His attitude during the FL lynch seemed over the top."
Well, I haven't been around long enough to generate a meta here, but I'm afraid that's how I play town. I pick someone, I zero in, yes, maybe I tunnel-vision sometimes, but, unlike FL, I stick with my gut - I don't get it confused with common sense.

"The way he changes his vote from Gimbo to FL seemed off."
The main of my vote against Gimbo was the way Gimbo was playing, from what meta I've read of his, it's a lot less bat-shit crazy that usual. Then, of course, LlamaFluff replaced, and Llama has been a considerable amount more intelligent, and less scummy. Gimbo/Llama now appears less scummy than FL, so my vote switched to FL, who hasn't done much to shift in, IMHO.

"His next post is 351 and he says he's leaning town on FL because he has good posting under the new heat. But then right after that with only one 1-line post from FL in between, he votes FL for "schizophrenia, wall-of-texting to try and avoid questions, and the way his calm demeanour has completely cracked under any kind of pressure. " Two of those being things he'd said weren't that scummy two posts ago."
I said I was pleased with the improvement in posting style from FL, as the post of his I was replying to was less wall-of-text than previous. I certainly never mentioned his schizophrenic play and the way he cracked so completely to be town. In fact, these are what set my scum-dar off - because as soon as I said I was leaning town based on his change in posting style, he delivered a one liner, and has now returned to wall-of-texting and failing to answer queries with more than a couple of lines.

Oh, and FL's last post:

EBWODP. Missed armlx there. Ignoring a problem won't solve it. Removing it solves it. There are only two ways to remove it. Think she is town / Lynch her.

doesn't help him in mine eyne. If there was the option to ignore her, why didn't you, I dunno, perhaps suggest that? Or were you happy to let us roll the mislynch wagon down the hill to the noose? Looking back over 1.0, you were basically saying "I'm not doing anything until the fl situation is resolved" - in other words, "I'm not touching the vote button until you lynch her."

[Knight of Cydonia]

Ummm... contradicting yourself there. You jumped on Manito with far fewer scum-tells, IMHO, than we had been given by forbiddan. That doesn't seem the action of someone who 'rarely votes' to me, it looks like the action of someone waiting for the town to mislynch, then pressing their case against someone else.

[Knight of Cydonia]

But that one vote was thrown in on much weaker evidence than we had on forbiddan.

I saw Forbiddan's play as very scummy, but newbie town scummy.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. If you honestly saw her play as newbie town rather than newbie scum, why didn't you say so? Oh, wait, that's right, not only did you refuse to vote, but apparently you also refused to say anything other than covering your own hide.

Meaning the lynch of a townie was beneficial to the town.

It is NEVER beneficial to lynch town. As you said yourself, it's still one body the scum have to NK or get mislynched.
A COMPLETE turn-around. Scummier by the minute.

[Knight of Cydonia]

KoC is being OMGUSsy and ignoring cases against him today after tunneling and policy lynching fl D1

It wasn't a policy lynch on my part - I believed she was almost certainly scum. However, you have to admit, not havig her around this day has actually allowed us to have a much wider look at teh whole group, instead of focusing on forbiddan.
And if you want to call it a policy lynch, by your own logic, there are 8 other people who should be suspected. 9, including yourself, since it's a policy lynch to lynch anyone advocating a policy lynch. I'm certainly not OMGUSing - if I was, I'd have thrown out about 5 votes by now, in response to CF Riot and your cases - neither of which I ignored, so saying I have isn't going to fly. I responded to both of you. If I was scum, I'd probably be voting you at this point. I'm not, because I believe you're town, like me. I agree that Corinthian is definitely lurking far too much - he's guilty of doing exactly what K7 is doing: posting with just votes, or FoSes, with a couple of line behind them, then disappearing for two pages, sometimes more.
And calling the FL case weak is... well, a bit dumb. She was unwilling to vote forbiddan, who basically painted a giant bullseye on her ass by self-voting - FL may have been right, but look at it without hindsight, and it's a giant scumtell, a WIFOM play that went wrong. Day 1.5, FL then leaps on Manito with far less scum-tell, and far less persuasive scum-tell, than forbiddan, having said about 7 pages before "I rarely vote". Then look at the way FL's posting style changes to suit whoever is pointing hte finger at him - while it was just Manito, FL just rattled off "I already answered this" and then a pathetic one-liner summarising a non-existent post. Then, when I point this out, FL finally drops the wall of text and posts a decent enough reply. As soon as I say the changed post style would make me lean town, he reverts to one-liners, and has since done little but wall-of-text again. That return to one-lining, couple with the continual changing to suit different audiences, and the difference in this from D1.0, is what made me stick my vote on him. A town player shouldn't need to constantly change the way they post for each accusation.

Also, just one for the rest of the town to consider - look who leapt to FL's defence as soon as heat came down: Llama and CF Riot. That makes three. Could be perfectly innocent, but if FL flips scum, as I'm sure he would, we might be onto something.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Didn't sotp this at first:

This is Fae's general meta. At worst its null, its possibly town. He is a poor lynch.

QFT lets get to lynching KoC/manito/Corin

Okay, WHAT? You basically want the town to blinker themselves into three people, ignoring the perfectly valid case against FL, and the "It-would-be-a-case-but-he's-sodded-off-AGAIN" K7 case?
Blinkering the town in this way is not a good idea.

This is Fae's general meta. At worst its null, its possibly town. He is a poor lynch.

Meta-reads are WIFOM at best - they could have changed their play-style to make you think that, or they could have no changed their style because they think you'll think they've changed their style... Meta is rarely useful.

Compare your evidence in defence "This is his general meta" and "It's not his fault he didn't vote - forbid's case was hard" - which it wasn't, either commit a vote to someone else who looks more scummy, or at least give a better argument than "I don't think forbid is scum" - to the evidence of constant play-style changes within this game, the epic walls-of-text, and the complete turn-around from D1 ("Lynching a town is never good, it's still one more body for scum to NK") to 1.5 ("Lynching forbid was good, even though she was town, but I didn't put my vote on because I was afraid of Mafia"). No contest really.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Sorry, it's been a looong 48 hours. I did address that point though:

Then, when I point this out, FL finally drops the wall of text and posts a decent enough reply. As soon as I say the changed post style would make me lean town, he reverts to one-liners, and has since done little but wall-of-text again. That return to one-lining, couple with the continual changing to suit different audiences, and the difference in this from D1.0, is what made me stick my vote on him.

If he'd remained consistent with the style I said made me lean town on him, my vote probably wouldn't be where it is. The fact he went stright back to one liners after that, coupled with some extremely scummy statements (409, definitely, plus a lot of the stuff he said during the forbiddan episode about refusing to even open another case until we'd solved it - interestingly, he started this stuff at L-4, at a point where forbiddan had just begun her "You'll be sorry when I flip town" stuff.)
is why my vote is where it is. It's ironic that what some are calling a fairly shaky argument (I think it would be good grounds for a Cop-search in any other game, at the least) has led to FL making some even more scummy slip-ups though - 409 reads like scum grasping for excuses, rather than town explaining.

[Knight of Cydonia]

@ Knight, since you're post is pretty much the same thing rehashed

Being concise is not a scum tell.

Meta-reads are WIFOM at best - they could have changed their play-style to make you think that, or they could have no changed their style because they think you'll think they've changed their style... Meta is rarely useful.

Which is idiotic, since how can I change a meta that looks exactly the same as previous games? That's like saying I changed a portable telephone into a mobile.

No, being concise is not a scum tell. One-liners that don't properly answer the questions asked, and are summaries of "previous posts" that don't exist, is.
You can repurpose a meta. Playing a town-meta while NKing isn't hard, as long as you target the right people, so that it's unlikely people link your day-play (which reads town, as it's in line with your meta) with those you pick out at night. A half-decent wolf knows how to use WIFOM properly, to make NK's look so unlikely as to be near-impossible to read.#
Also: more of the aggression here, which never popped up while no-one was looking at you 1.0. Is this aggression and name-calling in line with your "meta"? Is this the cracks widening?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Also how is this

I honestly think if the town doesn't lynch forbidden after quite possibly the scummiest first day I ever did see, we're screwed. Anyone who acts this scummy as town is a hindrance, and anyone who acts so blatantly obvious as scum is a gift.

And like my mum says, never refuse a gift. Because you can always get store credit.

Or this

anyone who acts this way as town is a hindrance

Quite frankly, m'dear, if you are town, I'd be almost as happy to see you go. You're doing nothing by playing this way other than helping the Mafia.

Or even this

I said I'd be almost as happy. That doesn't mean I'm voting for you whether or not you're town - it means if you aren't scum, you're screwing up our first lynch, and it's better than we find out what you are now, than let you confuse us further, when it's down to 4/5 to lynch.

How are all those not pushing us towards a policy lynch. You basically are saying that no matter what fl is she needed to be lynched. Right there, no questions asked. That is a policy lynch.

And if you want to call it a policy lynch, by your own logic, there are 8 other people who should be suspected. 9, including yourself, since it's a policy lynch to lynch anyone advocating a policy lynch. I'm certainly not OMGUSing - if I was, I'd have thrown out about 5 votes by now, in response to CF Riot and your cases - neither of which I ignored, so saying I have isn't going to fly. I responded to both of you. If I was scum, I'd probably be voting you at this point. I'm not, because I believe you're town, like me.

Not everyone wanted a policy lynch. Most people were pushing for her being scum and trying to figure out if she was or was not. You were the only one who seemed intent on getting her lynched regardless of what her alignment was. Also you never vote OMGUSed me, there are many levels. After my case, you mentioned how Gimbo looked scummy while not commenting on the case.

There's a big difference between saying someone is hindering the town as townie, and saying they should be lynched regardless. I considered forbiddan to be scum, I voted her on that basis. All you've done is artfully pick out comments that make it look like I'm saying "lynch her whatever". All of us on the forbiddan lynch reckoned she was scum.
Also, I did comment on the Gimbo case - I said

The reasonless hammer, combined with the "shit" post, could be read a variety of ways. For that reason, I'll be keeping an eye on Gimbo.

shortly before you replaced in.
Please, Llama. just give it up. I'm fairly sure you're town, but the evidence you're using is flawed, and nobody agrees with you, apart from armlx, who has magically decided to start posting properly now, as soon as Firestarter points out he's been short-posting - which, looking over his last posts, is generally true. There's about two posts in 1.5 that have decent content, the rest has been regurgitating the cases of others, word for word.
Oh and how many times do I have to re-iterate:
[quote="LlamaFluff]
Honestly, go meta and tell me his actions are still so scummy.
[/quote]
GAH! Meta is a WIFOM at best, useless to divine scum, and leads to mis-lynches at worst. Don't use meta to defend people. Give me evidence within this game, evidence of FL's township, not the scumminess of other people.

We digress here, fellow townies. There are far more scummy looking people, with far more evidence against them, than Firestarter or Corinthian, for example. And yes, I am fully aware that not posting leaves no evidence, but they could still be scummy, yada yada, but frankly, all we can go on is what we have got.

Based on posting styles, aggression, lurking, my LoS at this point would be:
FaerieLord
Killa7
b
i
g
g
a
p
h
e
r
e
armlx (it's taken you this long to actually put a Firestarter case together? Huh. And a null-tell is no defence. It's just a null-tell.)
Bogre(I'm no Oman, but at least Killa has bothered to ghost-post.)
LlamaFluff(I'm still leaning town, but an assault of this length is starting to look a little desperate.)
Everyone else.

[Knight of Cydonia]

EBWOP: That Llama quote should be:

Honestly, go meta and tell me his actions are still so scummy.

[Knight of Cydonia]

armlx (it's taken you this long to actually put a Firestarter case together? Huh. And a null-tell is no defence. It's just a null-tell.)

I'm lazy, this game sorta fell low on my interest list out of the number I am in. As I said, coming today or tomorrow.

And the moral of the story is - don't take on too many games at once. If I were you, I'd consider dropping a game or two to concentrate better on this one. I usually limit myself to 3 games maximum.

[Knight of Cydonia]

If I were you, I'd consider dropping a game or two

You have never been a mod, have you?

Only on toher sites - but from the games I've moderated away from here, I much prefer having an active player-group, than a bunch of people forcing me to prod them all the time. I'd rather people were honest about how much they can commit themselves to a game than just used "I'm lazy" as an excuse.

[Knight of Cydonia]

...Well, Bogre, conga-rats. You just hopped, skipped, and leaped all the way to the top.

unvote; vote Bogre

Coming back from a lengthy lurk with a reasonless vote... not the action of a town, IMHO.

[Knight of Cydonia]

You also accuse me of tunnel vision, while most of the FL voters are guilty of the same crime, while they occasionally will throw K7 in there (which they all seem to like as well), no real discussion comes from these players apart from defense of me going after them.

1. Yes, I've clearly got tunnel vision, what with having voted for forbiddan, K& (briefly) Gimbo (based on

his

behaviour, not yours), FL and now Bogre, for his reasonless vote and ghost-posting...
2.No real discussion apart from defence of you coming after me? For the bazillionth time, the reason I'm not voting, or even FoSing you, is because I believe you're misguided town rather than tunnelling scum.
Oh, and saying "Well, they're doing it too" as a defence isn't going to work. Just because others may be guilty of tunnelling, doesn't mean it's okay for you to do it.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I'm torn between three main suspects at the moment. I don't like the way FL has gone schizophrenic and is seemingly unable to decide between lurking, one-liners and wall-of-texting, and the constant changes in playstyle, first saying "This is my meta as town" then "Oh, forget my meta, okay?"... but that's what's making it hard to read.
I

really

despise the way Bogre answered his prod by voting with no reasoning, against someone who, IMHO, is probably one of the least scummy players at the moment. He also has completely refused to post since, despite several people asking for a reason behind the vote.
armlx... well, again, ver hard to read. Could well be town trying to avoid scum attention, could jsut as easily be scum deliberately avoiding the tough questions - and there are definitely some things Firestarter has bought up that he's avoided, and his selective quoting doesn't appeal greatly to me.
I'm going to keep my vote on Bogre for now, simply because I demand some kind of reasoning behind that vote. And if, as I suspect, the reasoning is that he's scum trying to start a wagon, then seeing him lynched and flip scum will do nicely as an explanation.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Argh. I just lost a huge post full of holes to shoot in FaerieLord. Gimme about 15 minutes to find all those contradictory quotes again.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I don't like the way FL has gone schizophrenic and is seemingly unable to decide between lurking, one-liners and wall-of-texting, and the constant changes in playstyle, first saying "This is my meta as town" then "Oh, forget my meta, okay?"... but that's what's making it hard to read.

Where have I told you to forget my meta? And please why is it that every time I tell you to clarify something you said, you never do? Also, where have I gone schizo? Also, where has my playstyle been changing?

Okay, I quite frankly have other crap to be dealing with, so I'm just going to pick out the two things that really, REALLY strike me as contradictory.

I'm not going to call you out on it.

I was going to do it pretty soon myself.

Now, onto better things

Vote: Manito

now, surely it makes more sense to take a look at Gimbo at this point, or Killa7, both of whom have done a lot more than Manito, who basically criticzed the way you were nit-picking at people, which sent you into an OMGUS frenzy? Nope, we're gonna go with a really thin case against some guy who doesn't like the fact you were being a tad ass-hattish. OMGUS, anyone?
And then, and this is the really juicy part, that shoots a massive hole in your whole argument about being town-leaning on forbiddan - well, just look at the part I've bolded. This, gentlemen, is in response to Gimbo's "shit" post. So, you were leaning town on forbiddan, but you would have hammered her anyway? Um, scummy, much? If you wanted to lynch a townie, you're either a very stupid townie, or scum. And you ain't stupid.

Now let's look at your next post.

Preemptive OMGUS? I think I've made it pretty clear in my posts that you're awfully suspicious.

I've been saying I don't like you since my first real post

and without any sort of precursor or evidence?

I posted a case on you

So, after pushing on the Forbidden lynch, but never voting (because they rarely vote) very quickly a vote is placed on Manito. I dont like this at all.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure about Manito, thus the vote.

- This is so noncommittal (especially since neither is explained) ESPECIALLY after the fact no vote was EVER placed day one.

It's pretty simple. I could have either voted for Forbiddan since common sense stated that she was scummy or I could have followed my gut and not voted for her.

It was, at least to me, an obvious overreaction since it would have been impossible to hammer Faerie. Why overreact this much?

Where did I ever mention a hammer? Also, it's not an over reaction. I cannot see where you see that.

"I'll do what the town says" AND not posting information because they didn't want to "muddle" the discussion (which led to a lynch they obviously distanced themselves from) I dont like.

This kinna annoys me. I have two posts full of information to digest, one of which has 3 PbPas and people are saying I didn't post information.

It's basically a pile of one-liners. Only once do you refer to a genuine post you've made, and your so-called case is just a shoddy, one-liner PBPA. That's not a case, that's a PBPA, and trying to pass it off as one is a lie. And only scum need to lie.
LYNCH ALL LIARS!

unvote; vote Faerie Lord
requesting prod/replacement for Bogre - I don't consider just voting sufficient evidence of activity- it's a two word post, ffs.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Crap. screwed up that first bit a tad.
Should read:

I rarely vote without a very good reason

and then, literally the 2nd post of 1.5, and FL's first post in about a page and a half:

I'm not going to call you out on it. I was going to do it pretty soon myself. Now, onto better things

Vote: Manito

[Knight of Cydonia]

So nobody cares that FaerieLord basically admitted he was going to hammer forbiddan, despite the fact about a page earlier, and ever since, he claimed he was leaning misguided town in her? Sod the rest of the case: HE SAID HE WOULD HAVE HAMMERED SOMEONE HE CONSIDERED TOWN. The only reason he would have for that is: he's scum.

shit

I'm not going to call you out on it.

I was going to do it pretty soon myself.

Now, onto better things

Vote: Manito

[Knight of Cydonia]

Firestarter, armlx, are you deliberately ignoring me? Admitting you would have hammered someone you thought to be town... come on. What more do you want?

[Knight of Cydonia]

shit

I'm not going to call you out on it.

I was going to do it pretty soon myself.

Now, onto better things

Vote: Manito

Now, here, you basically admit that you would have hammered forbiddan.
Before this, in your last two or three posts, you've been saying that you reckon forbiddan to be misguided town rather than dumb scum.
If you're town, and you believed forbiddan to be town, you had no motive whatsoever to lynch her. The only explanations are that either you were lying 1.0, and thought forbiddan was scum (and why on Earth would you lie about that? No good reason.), or that you're scum.
Town players should NEVER, and I mean NEVER, have any reason to hammer someone they believe to be town. "I wanted to get the issue out of the way" is not a good reason - if you wanted it out of the way, and were town, you would have argued forbiddan's corner.
But the honest truth is, you never wanted to prevent that forbiddan lynch. As scum, you knew all too well she wasn't scum, since the role PM's from the first page indicate that each scum knows their partners. What you were really doing, despite all your constant claims you believed her to be town, was steering the lynch without ever voting yourself. All through Day 1.0 there are little bread-crumbs that look as though they're there to make forbiddan look scummy.

Also: Armlx, are you allowed to discuss the game in scum-chat? It may not have been discussion about who to vote for, but explaining why Faerie should be voting rather than withholding is a bit... morally grey, to me.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Oh, and if everyone would like to look closely, look how FaerieLord seems to be disappearing until someone brings some fresh evidence up against him, and then posts a pile of quotes, followed by one liners with no actual evidence in his defence.
All he has is "I've gone over this a million times now" - well, actually, you haven't. As far as I can see, this is the first time anyone has actually noticed this huge inconsistency between what you're telling us you thought 1.0, and what it appears you were going to do 1.0.

[Knight of Cydonia]

FaerieLord, that is the crux of my whole case against you -

no town should ever actively seek to lynch town, or have a motive to lynch town

- as LlamaFluff said, its still one more body in the Mafia's way. By admitting you wanted to lynch forbiddan as town, you merely confirm your scumminess.
I believed forbiddan to be scum, but with hindsight, surely it would have been better if we'd stopped the lynch, and slowed down a little? You're defending a mis-lynch, on the grounds that it's started new wagons, but if we had stopped at L-3 and taken a look around, we could have started new wagons then. If you hadn't been basically saying "I think forbiddan is town.... this is why she's scum" all of Day 1.0, the wagon may well have stopped, or at least been slowed so that further discussion could have taken place.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Your only defence is "I disagree", and "other people have done it". That doesn't make it right. And I'll say it again - "It's my meta" is not a defence. Meta is the most WIFOM-friendly scum-tool in the game.

[Knight of Cydonia]

But you fail to realise, that me saying that forbiddan lynching was needed

was not scummy behaviour in my eyes.

Some lynches must be done. Stop hoping for the best. It ain't happening.

Whether it was scummy in your eyes or not doesn't count. It looks incredibly scummy in my eyes, and in 3 other people's as well.

What should my defence be then?

Erm, maybe try posting some actual evidence in your favour, rather than using PBPA's as a whole case. Alternatively, look at the others who have displayed scummy behaviour, and put a good case together against them.
The only other person I find even vaguely scummy at this point is armlx, and he's at the least putting a case together that is half-way believable, and contains some real points both for himself as scum, and against other players.
Oh, and of course, there's killa seven.

Mod: please, either prod (Again...) or replace him. I beg you.

Until you either give me definite proof, other than a wall of one-line responses to my posts, or show me someone who has been more scummy today, my vote sticks.

Oh, and on this little statement:

Also, when you start playing against players better than me, meta will be the most useful tool you'll have. Do you think good players slip often? No, but even good players change their playstyle, even if they don't want to, as scum. I can only think of one person I played with that doesn't (Primate). So saying Meta is a scum tool is entirely naive.

I've played 24 games off-site and moderated 6 off-site, so I think it's fair to say: I've played against and with much better scum than you. And you're right, their play does change from game to game, usually. But not DAY TO DAY, which is what you've done.
Oh, and they don't try and excuse wanting to lynch town, either.

[Knight of Cydonia]

The fact you felt the lynch needed to go through, said you would hammer it, but never voted for it is what gets me.

I was in the game for 3 days. I wasn't directly involved in the forbiddan case. I wasn't going to just pop in and vote. Sure, putting my money were my mouth is would have been better, especially after making bold statements, and to that extent you may be right that it is a scummy action, I'll give you that, but saying that someone is scummy for "staying in the sidelines" for 3 days, where I could have just lurked until the day was over, and posted afterwords, is kinna meh.

If I really wanted to avoid getting my hands dirty, I could have done just that, and no one would notice for three days

.

Okay, first off, it doesn't take a lynch to let you see what's what in a game. I read through, came to a conclusion in my first day, based on what I could see, and went with it. It was wrong, but I "put my money where my mouth was", and made an active contribution to the game.
You then actually admit it was scummy, but excuse yourself by saying <bold-section>. Okay, WIFOM, much?
"If I was scum,

surely

I would have just lurked instead of pushing you all into the forbiddan lynch without voting myself!"

Also, according to you;

I didn't place my vote on forbiddan because I was worried about getting attention.

So, you've basically said "If I wanted to avoid your attention, I would have just lurked for three days.", which is a) a pile of WIFOM and b) a contradiction to what you said earlier, where you said you were willing to point shit out against forbiddan, but didn't want to vote in order to avoid attention.
Scum, much?

[Knight of Cydonia]

But not DAY TO DAY, which is what you've done.

My playstyle has not changed! You are failing at judging playstyles badly. So you are ready to ignore the fact that I've said that my playstyle has been constant with other games I was in, but want to be all conclusive of my playstyle based on about 5 posts?

I don't give a shit about your meta! Meta's can be repurposed so easily by even a mediocre player! I'm going on this game, and you've gone from serene, rarely voting, to basically OMGUSing (minus vote) everyone who has raised a finger against you, and pursuing a case that stinks!

Oh, and they don't try and excuse wanting to lynch town, either.

Matjoeman ain't a bad player. Good players will lynch town as town on purpose.

WIFOM! Complete and utter WIFOM! "A good town player did it once, so because I'm doing it, I must be town!"

I've played 24 games off-site and moderated 6 off-site, so I think it's fair to say: I've played against and with much better scum than you

1)Mafia is different from site to site 2)I don't doubt you did play against better players. I know I'm not the best player out there, but frankly the case on me is quite bogus. The only one that does not fail at ignoring posts among you all is SpyreX.

1) I played about 7 games with an exact same set-up as this
2)THe case is NOT BOGUS! Saying it over and over again will not make it so! You are nor Captain Picard!

*deepbreath*

[Knight of Cydonia]

EBWODP: I'm going to sleep now, I'll answer anything new in the morning. I think both me and KoC need a breather since both of us are becoming rather caught up in the argument, and it'll result into ad homs soon.

That's the first thing you've said in a long time that ain't scummy.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Mod: Bogre hasn't posted since - can we get another prod on him, at least?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Precisely. As I've said several times, and no-one seems to have listened, Metas can often be repurposed, which is why they're fairly useless in my eyes. There are very few exceptions where people really do stick to their metas rigidly, but those are very rare. Besides, I'm not arguing about FaerieLord's game-to-game meta, I'm arguing about his complete style change in the space of one lynch.

[Knight of Cydonia]

At last, he listens! Every time I bring up a load of FL's playstyle changes, she says "Oh, it's my meta!" but meta is game-to-game: what really pinged my scumdar is the fact her playstyle has changed as soon as that lynch happened.
The fact of the matter is, FL deliberately back-seat drove that wagon on forbiddan, and now we're seeing the true FL. And it's damn scummy.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Seriously, what is with this desperate tunnel vision on me, Manito and Corin?
And to me, it lokos like you don't actually have a case on me. I've refuted any and all points made against me, so why are you lumping me in with Manito and Corinthian? Do you just feel the need to fill up a neat trinity, or do you want to make sure you never have to try and find some evidence on anyone else?

TAKE ME DOWN TO THE PARADISE CITY...

FaerieLord - 4 (SpyreX, Manito, Corinthian, Knight of Cydonia)
killa seven - 3 (CF Riot, TheSweatpantsNinja, Firestarter)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)
Firestarter - 1 (armlx)
Corinthian - 1 (LlamaFluff)
LaptopGun - 1 (Bogre)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, BlckKnght

15, 8.

-Mod

[Knight of Cydonia]

fire. why u askin me for a response when i explained why i voted when i did and talked about theat whole situation when it happened. what do you want to explain i had cramps that day or something?

Crikey... I mean, Faerie had an okay first day, but has gone a bit schizo, and has avoided the whole change in stance on forbiddan issue completely... but Killa was just as guilty of back-seat steering the forbiddan lynch, and has been more consistently lurky and scummy throughout.
It's a tough one.

[Knight of Cydonia]

...that makes sense, actually. I could see a Corin/killa/??? grouping. Obviously, we both disagree on who'd be the third person - I'd put bogre or Faerie there, you'd put me, Bogre or Manito there, I assume - but it kind of looks right...
You know what, I'm willing to bring more focus onto Killa right now. The FaerieLord lynch clearly isn't going to work, no matter how much evidence I dig up against her. But Killa seven is being scummy in a way nobody can deny.

unvote; vote Killa seven

[Knight of Cydonia]

*face palm*

Wow. Just, wow.
I have honestly never seen a player of any kind give so little to a game.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Llama, all Corin has done is lurk, and one-line. Killa seven has lurked, one-lined, and basically steered the forbiddan lynch D1,as well as utterly refusing to post anything of consequence D1.5, apart from "look at the people who voted in the middle of the forbiddan lynch" - which is an attempt to push a policy lynch in my eyes. I would say killa is far more worthy of a lynch than Corin at this time. However, if Killa is scum, I can see a killa/Corin partnership - but until killa is lynched, I'm wary of going anywhere on Corin simply because they could be town with matching aims, and scummy styles.
Would you be willing to vote Killa, on the guarantee that if he flips scum, I will listen to whatever case you want to make against Corin, whose only crime I can see is lurking?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Ha. Llama, way to jump the bait. How many times do you need to ask CFR who to vote for?

Poorly worded, I think. Let me clarify that for those of us who can't quite manage five syllables:

I think Killa is scum. I'm also entertaining the idea that he and Corin are matching play-styles deliberately. As we have no pro-town power roles, the only reason for this would be a reverse WIFOM "Killa is lurking, so if I lurk as well, no-one will expect us to work together" as part of the Mafia. When Killa flips scum when lynched, I would seriously consider looking harder at Corin based on the way the both of them kept out of the way of the forbiddan lynch, whilst still pushing it along merrily.
However, I'm also VERY interested in the constant Llama/CFR interplay - it looks like Llama is constantly asking CFR for guidance, see 634 for one good example, and there are other posts through-out the day where Llama seems to be sounding out CFR as to which of his blinkered little Mafia Entente he should push a case on at the moment.
I'm also getting increasingly dismayed by the way both of them are seeking to blinker the town into a mislynch, by refusing to consider any case other than those they've decided to pursue - scummy, in my eyes, because any good town should be willing to be swayed. There have been far better cases against other players this day, yet they choose to pursue rather weak cases, or to pursue Corin for doing exactly what Killa 7 did - oh, but Killa isn't scummy. *rolls eyes*
Note that as soon as CFR began to leave Manito alone and focus on Corin, and dissuading the FaerieLord wagon, Llama did too - and the pair of them went on to look at Corin. Now, as a new case based entirely on... me wording my previous post poorly, emerges, Llama instantly looks to CFR for guidance before considering making a move.
I don't like it. I'd be willing to bet that at least one, but likely both Llama and CFR are scum, and certainly K7 - with CFR and Llama's buddy-plays constantly diverting attention away from him, I get the feeling these two are trying to retain the numbers to make it easier to get the edge over the town late-game, but are finding it increasingly difficult to ignore Killa's scum-tells in open play.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Yes. Thank you. Spyrex gets it. Have a cookie.

WHEN THE REVOLUTION COMES, VOTECOUNTS WILL HAVE A VOTE OF THEIR OWN

killa seven - 3 (TheSweatpantsNinja, Firestarter, Knight of Cydonia)
FaerieLord - 3 (Manito, Corinthian, SpyreX)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)
Firestarter - 1 (armlx)
Corinthian - 1 (LlamaFluff)
LaptopGun - 1 (Bogre)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, BlckKnght, CF Riot

15, 8.

-Mod

[Knight of Cydonia]

Indeed. Now, right now, I'd rather lynch K7 than your current #1, FaerieLord. I still have a great deal of suspicion surrounding FaerieLord, mainly concerning the way she has completely ignored the complete turn-around I highlighted, but right now I would say K7 is doing more harm than good. The more time he wastes with constant prod requests and virtually empty posts with no meaning, the more damage he does to us, the town. THerefore, I would urge anyone voting FaerieLord, yourself included, to switch to Killa seven. I think he's the one player a majority of the group can agree has been incredibly anti-town and scummy since teh whole forbiddan incident.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I believe K7 to be scum with all my heart, based on the vast amount of anti-town play, and the steering of the forbiddan lynch.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Now can you answer my question - would you be willing to leave hte FL wagon to take down the arguably more scummy Killa7?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Not going to happen. As the game goes on, those people who are being unhelpful will be called out and forced to respond. I just think now isn't the time.

SO hang on, you don't want to call out Killa seven yet... why? Because the time isn't right? When isn't there a right time to lynch a severely anti-town player?
Next post will have a big ol' PBPA on K7, it'll probably be tomorrow.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Okay, so, he's been scummy, and he's been anti-town by your own admission... so why so reluctant to vote on him?

[Knight of Cydonia]

For the purposes of keeping this a nice, clean PBPA, I'm going to ignore posts 0-3, since they are entirely crap. Not bad, just irrelevant chatter about gimbo "always being like this" and "I'm not a fan of random voting, hense me skipping that part"

Post 4:

gimbo, leed us to the scum boss.

First minor contradiction here. First he said "Gimbo is always like this". Now, I'm willing to bet most of hte games you've played with him, he wasn't scum.
Now you're basically trying to pressure him into leading hte town to the Godfather. Huh?


Post 6

im confused about the cop investigation talk, is that this game? i thought this was day one....

Fishing, much? This reads like he didn't even bother to check the rules, and as such has no idea about roles - and is therefore fishing for information. IME, most town players don't automaticaly try to push for claims as soon as they think there may be roles about.

Post 7 is a hurried backtrack on this - "I guess he was talking about another game" - looking to avoid fishing accusations, much?

Post 8

vote forbiddanlight
please dont vote yourself and hunt scum thanks.

I'm assuming that's meant to be read as "please don't vote yourself, hunt scum, thanks." Commas go a long way to making sentences readable.
SO, hang on, you're asking her not to vote herself, but you're voting her, presumably (no reason other than the implied one was ever given) because she's voting herself. Wouldn't it have been smarter, and a teeny bit less scummy, to just suggest she unvote herself and explain? Hmm? Admittedly, we all got caught up on this, but this looks a bit eager to start the wagon rolling to me.

Post 9

town should never vote for himself or herself, ask to be replaced.
im also callin her bluff at the sametime seeing if she really wants to be in this game, thanks for ruining my plan guys.

Okaaaaay... having modded (off-site) myself, I'm pretty sure flea would rather not find another replacement at this point.
"I'm calling her bluff and seeing if she wants to stay in this game, thanks for ruining my plan, guys"
Now, um, wasn't the majority of hte forbiddan lynch based on the fact she tried to first explain her self-vote off as a plan, then as some kind of freak-out? And also, the last two posts here seem to indicate that Killa has no motive to vote forbiddan other than to "call her bluff". Never, not once, does he say "I think forbiddan is scum because 'X' and 'Y'". Everyone assumes the vote is there for the same reason as theirs, but it looks like Killa is trying to get on the wagon without ever actually indicting himself when it goes wrong, as he knows it will.

Post 10

lol i figured youd cop out and say, "i was baiting scum" ive seen this done before, your not fooling me. dont play the poor me im under pressure, vote = myself i dont want to play anymore then try to turn me into scum for voting a quiter who cant handle pressure.

So, you now bring up this whole "I knew you'd cop out and call it scum-bait" (I'm paraphrasing, my fingers refuse to drop to this level without quoting); and also attempt to discrdit one of forbiddan's defences before she actually used it. It's taken you this long to explain your vote, and the only exlpanation is "I knew what you were doing all along, har-de-har!". Yuck. Also, getting a little personal here.

Post 11

from what your saying, first your saying i was having a bad day so i voted my self, then your saying you had a plan all along. to me it seems like you really wanted to quit and voted yourself and then later retracted and pretended it was all a master plan.

No. That's was not what forbiddan was saying. Twisting her words here. This isn't what forbiddan said at all, it's just your interpretation of it - and it's a false one. If she'd wanted to quit, she would have asked to be replaced. And y'know what - I'm actually beginning to think it may have been a masterplan after all now. Everyone else is happy to vote on forbiddan's weak defence of her self-vote, but you seem to be the only one trying to put extra words into her mouth. I bet your scum-partners were cringing here.

Post 12

ive allready stated what i think of self voting if your town.
so dont self hammer, thanks. unless your scum

Ugh. Icky, icky, icky.
A verbal slip here from Killa, in which he basically admits he doesn't believe forbiddan is scum, but he is still willing to continue to lynch her. It looks here like the only reason the Killa7 BW ground to a halt is the timely hammer from Gimbo(now LlamaFluff.) It might have been interesting to see what might have happened if Gimbo hadn't stepped in with what looks like a protective hammer to me: "Must stop discussion of partner before mislynch is derailed!" Interestingly, Gimbo was also one of the first to jump onto forbiddan, along with Killa. Hmmm.

Post 13

We need to look at those who hopped on the wagon, positions like 5-9, IMO.

It was too quick for my liking.

its k7 and i didnt "hop on"

Ummm. he never mentioned you, at least, not in the bit you've quoted here. Pre-emptive defence, here.

Post 14

I dont like the way gimbo acted around the hammer of fl and his "shit post" but knowing gimbo he allways acts spazzy so its hard to tell if hes over anxious scum or just being a crazy player as allways. i need to look into the farie case the wagon came pretty fast.

None of this ever happened. Only anti-town players or scum offer to look into cases but never do, IME. Also - more excusing of Gimbo's

kerrazy

style, before anyone really even considered a serious BW on Gimbo.


Post 15 onwards will be tomorrow.

[Knight of Cydonia]

koc attacking me for lurking while his buddy FL is layin low going unnoticed is severly noted.

my buddy, who I've been voting for for a good deal of this day, and find almsot as suspicious as you? Riiiiight.

CF Riot: as I mentioned a while ago, this was FaerieLord's response to Gimbo's "shit" post. It's basically FaerieLord admitting he was going to hammer forbiddan, despite his constant claiming he was leaning town of forbiddan all through day 1.
And while you'r eentitled to your opinion, I can tell you now, I'm town. Or is that why you're attacking me?

Kotc wrote..

First minor contradiction here. First he said "Gimbo is always like this". Now, I'm willing to bet most of hte games you've played with him, he wasn't scum.
Now you're basically trying to pressure him into leading hte town to the Godfather. Huh?

^^^^
yo, can u not tell a fuckin joke when you see one? this is reaching and very weak.

You're calling one point of my PBPA so far "weak", and completely ignoring the rest. *head-desk* Worst. Selective quoting. EVER. You then try to put me and FaerieLord forward as a scum pair, despite the fact we've been at each other's throats for ever since the lynch... and you accuse ME of reaching?

[Knight of Cydonia]

It's List of Suspects/Suspicion, depending on whether you pick out a few people you suspect, and summarise your case on them, or look over the whole town in one post and detail your leanings towards them, with summarised evidence.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Post 15

Hi. im here need to catch up losts of huge posts

This is his return from a 7 day lurk. Most people post something decent when they get prodded. Not Killa, the quintessential lurk-scum. His next post:

Post 16

Killa seven. Hence the vote. Forbiddanlight's trap was foolish, because those kind of "traps" almost always backfire, but I think k7's jump on that wagon was scummy nonetheless.

are we still on this?
im going to look into your posts.

Attempts to dismiss the case, then offers to OMGUS-PBPA TSN for voting him.
Never happens.

Post 17

No. id just like to read into him, he seems to just want to fall on yesterdays argument, kinda slidin through the game in the open.

Hello, Pot? Hi, this is Kettle. YOU'RE BLACK.
Again, this "read into him (TSN)" never happens. As I said in Part 1, only scum offer PBPA's analysis and never do them, IME.

Post 18

yea i just read your posts, all uve said is ive done something unordinary scummy as opposed to usual, then next post days later vote me with no explanation and call them instincts.

This is Killa seven country! We don't do evidence, or indeed anything other than one-liners here! I mean, seriously. He's not just murdering townies, he's murdering the English language.
And apparently, you have to vote someone in the same post you provide a shit-load of reason to vote them, or Killa ignores it. Killa can't read more than one post from a player, apparently.

Post 19

fire. why u askin me for a response when i explained why i voted when i did and talked about theat whole situation when it happened. what do you want to explain i had cramps that day or something?

Yes, you did. Oh, wait, you didn't. You actually said "Don't vote yourself, and hunt scum, thanks". This is another implication that you don't believe Forbiddan to be scum, but are voting her anyway. Just like in Post 13 (AFAIK). Icky.
You also try to brush off Firestarter's inquiry with a joke, and I'm starting to notice a increasing level of aggression in your post from here on.

Post 20 (Yeah, I was surprised he'd made this many, too)

*face palm*

Empty post make town unhappy. Empty post stink of anti-townness, and inability to respond to points levelled at you.

Post 21

^ that statement was scummy in itself.
lets lynch killa if hes scum ill listen to whatever u have to say? wtf?
and what makes u think me and coron would be partners because we both have lurked? yea buddy great analysis.

It's only scummy because you completely misinterpreted it. Spyrex basically summed it up nicely. Try reading his post - that's what I meant. Deliberately mis-interpreting it like that isn't helpful.

Post 22

koc attacking me for lurking while his buddy FL is layin low going unnoticed is severly noted.

PLEASE! Stop looking at me! Um... quick, who has KoC been linked with? Umm... FaerieLord, can't remember how though... *points finger* THEM TWO!
I've attacked FaerieLord pretty relentlessly for a good deal of 1.5, and you accuse me of buddying with him? Sheesh.

Post 23

yo, can u not tell a fuckin joke when you see one? this is reaching and very weak.

Crap, that is scummy... quick, pass it off as a joke! And swear, because that's fucking manly,and will make me look town by getting so angry!


Post 24

yo, can u not tell a fuckin joke when you see one? this is reaching and very weak.

In this post, K7 ignores vast quantities of an attack to pick on one weaker point.
[/quote[]

his first "point" is utter bs, no need to pick on the rest of his corny logic.

Why don't you? or can you just not answer any of the points I'm making?

Throughout the day, Killa seven has alternated lurking with one-liners of little or no content, and most of his votes have been on existing bandwagons, but with slips of wording that look really scummy.

[Knight of Cydonia]

So... his meta is to be completely random, so because he's been acting very scummy, he's not random enough "according to his meta" [/scorn] to be scum here?

[Knight of Cydonia]

are you going to say most mafia players don't vote very often to begin with

In my experience on other sites, most of the time when there are still many players left, and multiple wagons, mafia players won't set themselves as the only vote against another player. Especially, you don't see scum starting wagons against other scum. Usually.

I've done it before. Heck, I've even once false-seer claimed, gotten a partner lynched, and hen rode my Seer status all the way to a 2-scum-remaining win. In a game with three or more scum, it's a perfectly valid strategy to sacrifice one for the good of the rest of the pack.
That's why if Killa is scum, and I don't doubt that he is, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one partner of his is on the wagon already.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Ugh. WIFOM, much? All I'll say is, I'm not going to look on that either way. It's just icky.

[Knight of Cydonia]

@ CFR - right now, the only person who sets of alarm bells in my head is Firestarter, because of the way he's been attacking armlx based on null-tells and WIFOM. He then admits it's WIFOM, and claims to have a "60/40" scum read on armlx. So 40% of you thinks he's town? Why do people feel the need to quantify their attacks with crap like this? And I'll stop the "xxx, much?" if it annoys you.

@Strangercoug - I still believed forbiddan to be scum - I did word that rather poorly. In essence, I mean "I'm pretty damn sure you're scum, but if you are town, you're only playing anti-town, and therefore into the hands of the scum." If anyone had been able to give definite proof, or even just a decent case in her favour, I would have dropped it - but throughout the game, she only ever used "You'll be sorry when I flip town", which read like a scum player trying to indict town who lynched her to me.

[Knight of Cydonia]

StrangerCoug, Killa was failing to respond to a PBPA which I spread over two posts. Look at my posts to find it.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Yup, that's the ones. And if you look at anything, look at #8 and 14, I think - those are the two real doozies.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I've already mentioned this to flea, but I will have V/LA from the 2nd of August until th 16th at the latest - however, it looks like I'll be getting satellite broadband while away, so that period should be cut drastically, with any luck.

Mod, I'll understnad if you want to replace me, but I'd like to stay.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I can manage that - if I haven't gotten my satellite linekd up, I'll sneak into a library and be vewwwy vewwy quiet.

Ahem.

So, K7's buggered off again. I think someone is trying to avoid the difficult questions by lurking.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Like I said earlier, I'll be looking at Corin tomorrow, certainly, but right now, K7 is the most scummy, lurking sonofabitch in the game.

[Knight of Cydonia]

...You know those people who completely misinterpret your posts, refuse to analyse your PbPA which had some pretty damning stuff against them, and then begin throwing out votes just because someone's been prodded? Ugh.
Killa, I really don't like the fact that the majority of your posts have been fluff, and I don't like that rather random vote. If it's a 'pressure vote' because he's been prodded - why? He's BEEN PRODDED. He doesn't need people voting him to get him in here.

[Knight of Cydonia]

^read LL's post.
i thought i did a good pbpa of koc but i guess no one likes it
im willin to switch to corithinan tho. i dont like his lurkerness then hoppin on my wagon for a weak reason.

Corinthian has been pretty against you throughout the game, AFAIK, althoguh I have to admit, he didn't give a reason in his vote post.
However, I don't like the way K7 is trying to push attention onto a policy lynch - isn't it better to lynch someone incredibly scummy, who's been active, than to lynch someone who has been mildly scummy, but less active?
This isn't a game of lynching less active players, it's a game of lynching scummy ones - like killa.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Um... the reason he never wagoned is because he's been lurking for most of this day. And he not only started and then encouraged teh forbiddan lynch, he then basically admitted TWICE he didn't think forbiddan was scum.
Meta is bullcrap, especially with someone as... well, from what I'm seeing, batcrap-crazy as K7.

[Knight of Cydonia]

...You're willing to lynch Corin based on lurking (which may be imposed by RL), and the fact he was more active as a Cop? This is why I don't like meta - how do you know he's not being less active to avoid attention, because people know his "meta" as protown is to be vocal?
Meta is WIFOM and outguessing at best, and I refuse to lynch anyone based on meta and lurking alone.

CFR - You're missing the point. I'm not using killa's lurking as my main reason - it's more of a null-tell in my eyes, than a scum-tell. THe scum-tells for me are the way he posts without any content until someone attacks him, then misinterprets every post creatively, or even better, ignores them entirely, just spouting aggro at them.
As I pointed out in my PBPA, he also at two points in Day 1 implies that he knows fobiddan isn't town.

[Knight of Cydonia]

less talking about Corin and more voting Corin would be a very good thing to do here

Um... what? So, basically, you want us to lynch Corin with no further discussion, and to completely ignore the fact that K7 has been a lot worse this day, and throughout the whole game? I can appreciate if you want Corin lynched, but this sounds a bit like you just want everyone to jump on your burgeoning wagon without thinking about it.
I've posted my big PBPA on K7 a couple of pages back - how about you do one on Corinthian? That way we can weigh up the two arguments.

SHE'LL BE COMIN' 'ROUND THE MOUNTAIN WHEN SHE COMES

killa seven - 5 (TheSweatpantsNinja, Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, orangepenguin)
Corinthian - 3 (StrangerCoug, LlamaFluff, Firestarter)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

Not Voting - Joubert

15 alive, 8 to lynch.

-Mod

[Knight of Cydonia]

I mean, I can understnad wanting to get Corin to be a bit more vocal and to answer questions, but he could have RL issues which are more important right now, in which case he should be replaced, rather than lynched, and to be hoenst, the only points I can see against Corin right now are:
- Lurking (Not as much as K7, but still, yeah, fair enough.)
- Avoiding Questions (K7 is just as guilty of this is my opinion - he's only ever answered the minor points of my PBPA, nothing about the way he was pushing for forbiddan to be lynched whether or not she was scum)

But hey, if you can prove me wrong, go for it.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Well, if there isn't much to go over, it should be easy for you to find this damning evidence you keep going on about - and seeing as we're now at 853, I think you should have a lot more to go on from Corin anyway since 392 - that's almost 500 posts.

[Knight of Cydonia]

...Okay, that looks fairly good to me, actually. I can't see anything there that stands out as town-tells, to be honest. I'm willing to go with a Corin lynch today, but I want K7's head tomorrow.

[Knight of Cydonia]

As I pointed out in my PBPA, he also at two points in Day 1 implies that he knows fobiddan isn't town.

No he doesn't. What happened to saying he was steering the Forbid lynch? You decided not to use that anymore since I pointed out he wasn't?

vote forbiddanlight

please dont vote yourself and hunt scum thanks.

and

ive allready stated what i think of self voting if your town.
so dont self hammer, thanks. unless your scum

Yes, he does.

And as for steering the forbiddan lynch, just look at posts 8-13 of his.
He never actually provides evidence, he just focuses on the self-vote, rather than providing any actual evidence - he leaves that for others to do.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I can see the reasons for the Corin wagon, and they're good, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as good as the K7 lynch. If we don't lynch someone ever for having a scummy meta, then inevitably, there's going to be times when they're going to be scum, using that meta to ride on through - and that is what I think K7 is doing, based on posts #8 and #14 in my PBPA, mainly, and the overtly scummy nature - it looks like he knew he could ride that scummy meta, because certain players here put a lot of store in meta, through to safety, and got too obviously scummy.
I'm keeping my vote where it is, and unless someone here can come up with anything better than "You're playing differently to normal! Normal being one game of hurry-up!", I don't intend to move it. K7's scummy behaviour may be his meta, but it's still scummy. And the point of the game is to lynch scummy players, yes?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Yup. And compare that to killa's play.
If we take all the meta crap away, you can only really suspect K7:

Corin:
"I refuse to respond to that kind of bullshit." It may have been reaching and a bit ugh, but still, respond, y'know?
A bit of lurking.

K7:
"Leed us to teh scum boss, Gimbo"
"Please don't self-hammer, unless you're scum, "
Vast amounts of lurkery (including right now - where is he? made a completely fail PBPA of me, where he completely misread stuff and brought up points I already answered)
General scumminess and anti-town play.

All Corin's done is lurk a little, and react a little aggressively.
K7 has two days worth of dedicated anti-town play and twice during the forbiddan lynch implied knowledge he knew she wasn't scum.
Do the maths, people. THe lynch maths.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Dismissing them as jokes is wrong - just because he put a wink on the end doesn't make them jokes.
The first one looks like he's doing exactly what makes meta-reads worthless, to my mind - it looks like he's playing scummy and joking around, whilst throwing out an early accusation - joking or not.
The second one was actually picked up on, but briefly, before Gimbo jumped in to hammer forbiddan and stop any further discussion. It is a direct implication that Killa knew forbiddan wasn't scum.
Also, you missed the third point in the brackets, which is the fact that all of his 're-reads' or PBPAs have been either one-liners with no real meaning, or just an one-line accusation and vote, or a deliberate mis-interpretation of points that I'd alraedy explained.
He also did exactly what some people are basing their case against Corin on:
he called the first point of my PBPA a joke, then dismissed the rest as corny logic - which is clearly wasn't.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Great. ANybody here have any particular aggro to Laptop? No? Bloody useful then.

I'm going to

Vote: Killa seven

again, then, for the exact same reasons I gave yesterday.

[Knight of Cydonia]

1st - Killa seven - I made my case very clear in 1.5, killa seven failed to ripost any of my points with more than "This is wrong" or "This is reaching" without any decent evidence against me... I don't see what more I can say about this.

2nd - FaerieLord - Appears to have contradicted herself on the forbiddanlight issue, supported Gimbo immediately after forbiddan flipped town saying "I would have hammered soon anyway", then went on to, further on in day 1.5, claim she was completely against a forbiddan lynch, despite never really providing anything against it, and offering opinions at points which appeared to support the lynch.

3rd - LlamaFluff - At several points throughout the day, urged people to just stop talking and vote Corinthian. Also, I feel that that wagon was extremely ill-advised - while there were scumtells, there were far fewer than Killa seven has offered, for example. Town players should never be against debating, and Llama suffered badly here from what he called a scum-tell in me - tunnel vision.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Another is the way he (killa seven) didnt go with a shameless wagon of Corin, which that close to a deadline I would of expected to see. You can throw meta in there but I dont think its really needed.

He could have avoided that lynch deliberately to look town.
Also, defending his case against me is pointless, since he had no case. It was a pile of OMGUS and "I agree with CFR" oneliners.

Also, Llama, I love the way you're completely failing to explain why you so determined yelled at people to "just shut up and vote Corin already" (paraphrasing from memory), trying to force a Corin lynch when there were far more suspicious people around?

Also: StrangerCoug, welceom to

FoS

land. That's a scummy lookin' vote, with poor justification.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I showed you the freaking contradiction five times already.
At the very start of Day 1.5, you said you would have hammered fl if Gimbo hadn't.
Then, later in 1.5, you claimed you had been against the fl lynch.
Also, saying that you were in favour of a town lynch is really scummy - at least I wanted to lynch because I thought she was scum.
Looks like you're saying you wanted to lynch town... which is something only scum should do.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Umm... the part where he said he would have hammered anyway right after Gimbo?

[Knight of Cydonia]

*shrug* You could take it that way. I think it's a slip, and that he said he would have hammered anyway. He's also said several times during 1.5 that the forbiddan lynch "needed to happen", which also looks to me like a slip implying he would have hammered anyway.

unvote; vote FaerieLord

I'm pretty damn sure on this. Enough so to leave Killa alone, since Llama (who I'm fairly sure of a scum read on also now) and Faerie seem to have been covering for him for most of 1.5 - look through, and whenever I attempt to put pressure onto killa seven, Llama or Faerie (and CFR, but I'm leaning misguided town on him right now) attack me, or try to derail (see Llama's desperation to have Corin, a townie lynched "less talking, more Corin votes plz", and FaerieLord's relatively OMGUS suspicions on me")

Also:

I had already stated before what I found scummy in Corin. I had just found manito scummier, which is why my vote remained on him

but it didn't. You helped push the Corin wagon above the killa seven one.

[Knight of Cydonia]

...Read the post FFS. Every time I've made an attack on killa seven, Faerie or Llama jumps in and either takes a shot at me or Corin day 1.5.
As soon as D2 started, Llama and Faerie both post indictments of me, straight after I continue my vote on killa seven.
I'd call OMGUSing on K7's behalf every time I post against him a bit of a connection, wouldn't you?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Care to put your vote where your posts are?

Also: where the fuck did everyone else go?

[Knight of Cydonia]

MinorFoS: StrangerCoug

For hypocrisy.

BA, BA-DAAAA, BA-BA BA-DAAAAAA

FaerieLord - 3 (Manito, SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia)
Firestarter - 2 (CF Riot, armlx)
Knight of Cydonia - 1 (LlamaFluff)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, FaerieLord, Firestarter, orangepenguin, StrangerCoug

With 13 alive, it's omgomg 7 to lynch.

-Flea

[Knight of Cydonia]

It was a bit of a joke really. THat post was kinda filler in itself, since it looked like StrangerCoug was just poking his head above the trenchline for a second.
I already have my trio anyway.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Because you weren't wrong about fl either?

[Knight of Cydonia]

FL = FaerieLord
fl = forbiddan light.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Is that it, or are we actually going to see some content from you?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Could you be more anti-town?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Yeah, basically, I don't give a crap. [/sarcasm] [/fakeBBcode]
But seriously, where is it, I'll read through. I think I missed it as well, tbh.

[Knight of Cydonia]

...Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you, Coug? That almost looks like a deliberate misquote to me...

[Knight of Cydonia]

Ah, of course. I forget you Yanks operate on Wrong Time.

13 ALIVE, 7 TO LYNCH

FaerieLord - 3 (Manito, SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia)
Firestarter - 2 (CF Riot, armlx)
Knight of Cydonia - 1 (LlamaFluff)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, FaerieLord, Firestarter, orangepenguin, StrangerCoug

With 13 a- wait a minute...

-Mod

[Knight of Cydonia]

You say K7's gone off your radar just because he's not posting?
Crikey, should I just lurk for a while then, and then no-one will look at me?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Um, that last quote was about K7's myriad cases against.
Deliberate misquoting, maybe?

I mean sure, go ahead and jump on an easy wagon saying you've had those suspicions all along, if you want to

It's onyl an eas ywagon because you've done some scummy shit.

[Knight of Cydonia]

SC, you do realise the whole point of this game is to find the Mafia, yes? All of them, yes? Voting me for saying "I think these three are scum" is like saying "Only ever suspect one person at a time" - which is bullcrap, since it's the interplay between scum that often gets them caught.

[Knight of Cydonia]

...So let me get this straight: we vote FS, lynch him, and then CF et al will throw their weight behind the FL case, and possibly the K7 case as well?
That's a fair enough offer, I suppose. Firestarter has been getting along quite nicely whilst teh FL and K7 cases dominated, mostly, but the case against him is good enough. I'd probably have gone for him after K7 and FL, maybe put him joint third with Llama... I'll play along, on the guarantee of that FL lynch.

unvote; Vote Firestarter

[Knight of Cydonia]

I'm completely against the way this bastard has lurked off a large well-reasoned wagon yesterday.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Lurking to escape wagon = Scummy
Reasoning + explaining off a wagon = Town.
Geddit?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Umm... maybe because FL knows who the scum are, being one herself, and therefore knows that attacking any of us townies will make me even more suspicious? I see it all the time on other sites I play Mafia on. You put pressure on a scum, and they stop attacking anyone, they just defend, defend, defend.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Yes, but FL is still on hte defensive even when there's very little pressure on her. Most townies would have started on the aggressive again by now, some scum tend to turtle.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Scum is afraid to jump on bandwagon so late. Scum fears being looked at for it.
Scum fears that if he starts another wagon on town, he will be lynched. Scum one-lines, maybe five lines, spaced out to make it look more like good content.
Scum is turtling.

[Knight of Cydonia]

killa... have you lost the will to live? really? a completely reasonless vote?

FL - "Llama told me to!" Scum interplay there, perhaps?

[Knight of Cydonia]

SC - do you want any more proof that K7 is a massive anti-town scum player? He's accusing anyone he can of being scum, or chainsawing... oh, and if you missed it, his "case" against me was actually him just quoting all of my points in my PbPA of him, and saying "This is bullshit" or "Lol, can't u take a joke d00d?"

[Knight of Cydonia]

Okay, then I point you at my earlier PbPA, while I write up a revised edition to include the meagre additions since I posted it. In there, find what I consider to be pretty damning evidence that he knew perfectly well that forbiddan was town, and pushed the lynch anyway, and has been lurking and playing anti-town all game.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Don't vote for yourself please
unless you're scum ;p

I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist of it.

And Killa, there's a difference betweeen believing someone to be scum, and pushing a wagon regardless. I thoguht fl was scum at the time. You were just pushing because it was a cheap lynch.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Yeah, that's the ticket, killa seven! Just insult people, call their ideas dumb, that'll make them believe you!

[Knight of Cydonia]

And the game grinds to a tedious halt. It seems like about 6 or 7 players are doing all the talking, and the rest are sliding along in the background.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Well, darn it, vote: Knight of Cydonia until he convinces me to move it! There! You happy!?

Flippety-floppety, the Cougar hasn't changed his spots.
Methinks he's hoping my PBPA (sorry, it's going to take some time - just restarted college) will give him grounds to start another easy wagon.
Almost looks like distancing from LLama, too.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Wow.
Let's sum that post up in one word.
That word is: OMGUS.
Any qualms I might have had before just evaporated like pee on hot tarmac at midday.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Prior to that, I would have unvoted you if there was a chance of a K7 lynch, Firestarter. Now I'm willing to have you both lynched.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I love the way CF is slowly builing up to a "lynch KoC, so that when he flips town you'll see I'm town" post. It wouldn't actually prove it, either, so why we keep coming back to "if KoC flips scum/town, such-and-such is scum/town as well". Seems like an easy way to just get me lynched, and maybe put you in the clear, CFR.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Because CFR is

clearly

town, and I'm

clearly

scum. [/sarcasm]

[Knight of Cydonia]

I'd say you've got plenty, SC. You seem to be saying you're up for an FS lynch, but voting the most popular wagon currently, anyway.

[Knight of Cydonia]

In other words, Fire and CF seem to either want, or would be happy with (respectively) having me lynched on the grounds that it would clear/indict the other.

CFR asked Firestarter:

Would KoC flipping town make you lean town on me?

which is, no matter how much you deny it, an attempt to lead up to a lynch of me to false-prove CFR - although he dropped that route as soon as I called him on it, and Firestarter seems to be holding me at second me because if I flip scum (which I won't) it will prove his wonderful bussing theory that CF Riot is my buddy. Which he ain't.

Firestarter is probably the most OMGUSsy person in this game. Discounting meta entirely, I lean heavily scum on him. I'm discounting meta because a) I haven't completed any games with him, and b) I hate meta, because it can be used in a WIFOM strategy by skilled scum.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Well, way to mis-rep. I'm voting you because while not explicitly saying "Lynch KoC, and if he's scum, so is CFR", that is basically what you and CFR (although he implied he wanted me lynched to prove he's town) have been nibbling around the edges at - and it wouldn't prove anything other than the fact I'm town.
And OMGUS helps because you're not putting any decent cases together any more - it's just "You're voting me, but I can't see your case other than a feeling! And you have a case on KoC! Vote him, PLEASE!!! OMGUS VOTE ON YOU UNTIL YOU DO!"
Right now, it basically looks like you're trying toget votes off yourself and onto me, who you seem to think an easy target, and are accusing CFR of agreeing with the cases on you, over the case he has against me - which isn't as scummy as you think - it jsut means he finds those cases stronger.

[Knight of Cydonia]

But it is OMGUS. You're basically voting CFR for voting you over me.

[Knight of Cydonia]

So in other words, you're lurking.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Yay for quick-lynch with no chance to defend myself! Way to go, 'tardscum! XD
BAH!

This is the last post which Knight of Cydonia made as his first role.
-Mod

[Knight of Cydonia]

Right, it's been 48 hours, so am I in? If I'm in, I am so hammering OP right now unless there's a damn good reason not to.
But I'll wait for mod confirmation that I'm alive again before doing so. OP, might want to make a last defence here.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Oh. My. Fudging. God.
Killa Seven, if you actually come back to read this thread at the end - I am so sorry.
But for love of GOD, try not to be so fucking scummy next time you draw VT.
Right - to business.

Vote: Orangepenguin

Stop!

HAMMER TIME!

[Knight of Cydonia]

Llama/armlx/Thad.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Yeah, K7 gets LVP for me... but forbiddan, jesus, what a debut. Seriously.
And for the record, my next lynches would have been LF and Manito, who I was getting steadily more distrustful of... if only.