Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)

[Crazy]

Vote: WaltWishbone

, naturally.

I think mass-claiming might be a good idea. Then we can judge all scumminess based off of two people rather than one. Then it's like this is a 12-player game.

[Crazy]

It makes it harder for the scum to fly under the radar. How about that? I mean, when someone only has 3 posts for a game day, how are you supposed to tell if they're scum or town? If we can tie them to someone whom has the same alignment at them, then we can base our lynches off of the scumminess of 2 people, instead of 1.

I don't see any way that it could hurt us, or help the scum.

[Crazy]

Massclaim could also fail if the Mafia is set into an even number and/or multiple mafia pairs of lovers, especially without any sort of strict theme that would prevent rediculous claims. Pretty much anything goes here as far as a claim.

I can't understand what you're saying... how can any claims be ridiculous in a mountainous game? What I meant by mass-claiming was everyone telling us who their lover was.

And for any of you that say mass-claiming can hurt the town, you better give some reasons. I mean, without any nightkills, how can any information at all help the scum?

[Crazy]

The thing that turns me off about it is that is if one lover is playing suspiciously and the other isn't, and we lynch or don't lynch based on that info, it could screw things up. We might mislynch based on the scumminess of one player, or not lynch because one player is very good. I think we should wait until put close to a lynch to claim... Make sense?

If we claim now, or claim when we're close to lynch, either way, aren't we basing the lynch off of the same things, the scumminess of two people? And you're saying that you can get better scum-tells off of one person than off of two? How?

The most glorious part of the mass-claim is that it gives no way that the scum can fly under the radar like they normally do in large games. I mean, who ever lynches a lurker? If everyone is tied with eternal bonds to one other player, then nobody is excluded from the spotlight. This alone should be enough reason to claim, no? Unless if there's some really bad downside that I'm not seeing, I think mass-claiming is our best shot.

[Crazy]

Vote: Claim lovers

Supporting:
Crazy
Neko
Farside

Against:
Cephrir
Pwnz
IcemanE
Charter

[Crazy]

Here's a couple more points:

1. There is absolutely no reason why scum would lie about the identity of their lover. This isn't Polygamist.
2. Iceman, the fact that someone is your lover IS enough reason not to vote them. Voting for your lover is despicably anti-town, and without a mass-claim, some people may feel forced to do so.
3. You really think trying to keep track of 22 people (minus you and your lover) will be

less

confusing than 11 pairs?


Supporting:
Crazy
Neko
Farside
DBE

Against:
Cephrir
Pwnz
IcemanE
Charter

[Crazy]

Crazy, there's absolutely no reason TOWNIES would lie about their lovers. I can certainly see scum doing it.
What is the point of your bullet 2?
3, I think it will be better keeping everyone seperate, yes.

1. Neither would, which means that why would you wait to mass-claim? And why the heck would scum lie? They would just be counter-claimed by whomever they claimed to be lovers with. That would be stupid.
2. Responding to part of Iceman's argument, saying that we need real reasons to defend our arguments.
3. Charter, look at the list on the front page of this thread. How many of those people do you even have any idea about their alignment? If some of them end up lurking for most of the game, you'll never have any idea about them. This game has 24 people. This is a huge game, for the type of game that it is. If you could sort those 24 people into 12 pairs, wouldn't that be so much easier?

What's easier to keep track of, 22 people, or 11 people?

For example, I have no idea about Player X's alignment. If I knew Player X was paired with *insert scummy person* then I'd already be suspicious of Player X, even if Player X hasn't even posted yet. That puts pressure on Player X to post, and not just get by the whole game by lurking.

I know that tons of people in this game would post only one-or-two liners every once in a while. They won't be lynched until middle/late game, because they aren't in the spotlight. That's really not fair, because they are just as likely to be scum as anyone else. If everyone knew everyone else's lover, we could certainly sort the game out much easier, and not have to deal with the lurker situation as badly as we would if not.

Farside also has a good point about people defending their lovers. Often, when someone defends another person, the first thought anyone thinks is "OMG SCUM!" If all lovers are known, then you don't have to worry about making slips and defending your lover. And you might actually

vote

your lover to stay out of the spotlight.

Another point, I have a few people I'm suspicious of. If I knew their lover, that would really help.

I'd be against any lover claim. I might not even participate in it if it came to it.

Oh, yeah. And you have reasoning, or no? Or are you just going to bandwagon on the more popular option?

[Crazy]

Oh, I thought Against had one more vote. I'd still like to hear if Dybeck has reasoning, though.

Supporting:
Crazy
Neko
Farside
DBE
OpposedForce

Against:
Cephrir
Pwnz
IcemanE
Charter
Dybeck

[Crazy]

You're assuming that no one will lurk. You will get pairs that lurk, pairs that don't lurk, and pairs that are half and half.

No, I'm not assuming that. But you can't get any information from a lurker. You can get information from a lurker that's paired with an active person. And if a complete lover pair is lurking, then we can just order them to post.

24 people is just way too many to keep track of.

Suspecting others because of their lover is not a good idea in my opinion. I don't see why you need to find a pair of scummy people before you lynch one.

You don't need to. But, please see where I'm coming from:

Some mafia players are extraordinarily hard to read. When you use your scumdar on them, you get a computer error. And some people will look scummy regardless of what their role is. (I believe you are one of those people, charter)

And some people are newbies, the kings and queens of "I have no idea how to read this guy." Newbies often do really really strange, scummy things, even when they're town. That's why I want to know everyone's lover. Because with 24 people in this game, there will be a bunch of people that will draw false attacks. The scum will abuse these people and attack them silly until they are lynched. If a person like that has a lover that is really pro-town, or much more predictable, it will be more difficult for the scum to lynch them.

Also, if we claim now, you leave it open for scum pairs to defend themselves to no end and it will be perfectly accepted by the town. "Oh I have to defend them, they're my lover." Yeah, I can do without that right now.

Bull. Doesn't that apply to townies, too? Townies should be able to defend their lover without throwing off everyone's scum-o-meter. As for scum, there will still be 2 other people on the scum team that they will

not

be able to defend without looking suspicious.

Crazy, there will still be the same number of players, only each entity will have to be judged based on two people. What if one half of a pair is obvscum and the other has been pretty protown? Sure, claiming their lover at L-1 might help them get out of it, but they won't get nearly so much pressure if we've already claimed. And the thing about claiming is; if we don't do it we can do it later, but if we do we can't go back and not. charter: town lovers are likely to defend one another too, regardless of whether we massclaim.

Genuine scum-tells speak louder than town-tells. If one person in a lover pair is really, genuinely scummy (not stupid), and the other is pro-town, I'd be happy lynching them.

[Crazy]

Charter just missed all my points, but oh well, because I just saw what Adel said:

because it would invalidate the secret scumtell I have that I won't announce until we have three days on the books without a lover-pair massclaim.

I believe I know what she's talking about. I don't believe that claiming would completely invalidate it, but it certainly wouldn't help...

I hope the other townies in this game will pick up on what he's saying and not reveal this secret scumtell.

(If any of you inquire about this, I will assume you are scum.)

[Crazy]

[quote="Crazy"]I hope the other townies in this game will pick up on what

she's

saying and not reveal this secret scumtell.

[Crazy]

I didn't fully realize the potential of this scum-tell until Adel mentioned it. Now I

don't

want the massclaim for a couple days, as Adel said.

[Crazy]

Vote: OpposedForce

If this was AITP, you just asked who the king was.

[Crazy]

Unvote
Vote OpposedForce

[Crazy]

Yeah, that wagon did form fast. But with

thirteen

votes to lynch, I don't think we have to worry about a speedlynch here. I don't even think you can say scum are on the wagon.

I severely doubt Adel is scum. That would mean this whole "secret scumtell" is bull, which can't be, because I think I know what he's talking about...

[Crazy]

Can you please clarify this? What does the initals AITP stand for and how can it relate to what I said asking who is "the king"

AITP = Assassin in the Palace... it's a mafia variant. You can find it in Little Italy. It applies because just as in that game we have information that we can't let the scum have.

If you don't see what it is, then we can't tell you.

[Crazy]

Vote:icemanE Basically being a hypocrit and contradicting yourself while voting another person for the same thing you just did.

Where have I been a hypocrite?

He quoted your posts in post #119, dude. Quit stalling.

[Crazy]

I severely doubt Adel is scum. That would mean this whole "secret scumtell" is bull

False dilemma. Adel knowing about the tell and Adel being scum are not exclusive scenarios.

It also flies in the face of him saying that he knows what the scum tell is.

unvote, vote :Crazy

It is possible that someone can be town and not know about it.
It is not possible that someone can be scum and still know about it.

This is not a false dilemma. If Adel is scum, then she's pulling a really weird bluff.

[Crazy]

Iceman, the following quotes show that you have no idea what we're talking about.

Yes to what adel implied. I would have preferred to keep it less obvious by sort of dancing around it a bit more, but it should work regardless.

Right - it's possible that from other similar games, she knows the tell, meaning she could be scum this game too.

You are pretending to see this scum-tell that Adel mentioned. I don't believe town would do that.

Unvote, Vote IcemanE

[Crazy]

I just hope adels "tell" isn't just some mathematical formula that will wind up getting her lynched.

This is a useless one-liner that almost sounds like fishing for the tell..

FoS ThAdmiral

He claims I'm "pretending to see the scumtell Adel mentioned". How he can justify that statement, I don't know, as it's not really a secret scumtell, just something that might not be obvious to scum immediately - and additionally, Adel used it mostly as a reason to protest a mass lover claim - a reason I agreed with, as I disagreed with the mass-claim myself. There are several less experienced players in the game who may not realize what Adel is talking about.

The tell isn't about being experienced, Iceman. It's about being town. And no, I can't justify my statement without revealing what the tell is, but anybody that does realize what it is can easily see how your posts show that you don't know what it is.

Yeah, Pwnz's vote is a little troublesome, but that could just be that he knows what we're talking about and doesn't want to spill any information.

[Crazy]

The tell isn't about being experienced, Iceman. It's about being town. And no, I can't justify my statement without revealing what the tell is, but anybody that does realize what it is can easily see how your posts show that you don't know what it is.

Ah, you see, this makes me think

you're

pretending to know what it is. Unless something was missing from role PM.

I know what it is. You don't and are pretending to. Die scum.

[Crazy]

I dont think crazy knows what the scum tell is. If there even is one, this game is open, so town have no information the scum don't.

That is incredibly not true.

The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

This post is crap. Those two paragraphs couldn't conflict with each other more. Wouldn't you think maybe I'm thinking of the same thing you mentioned in YOUR SECOND PARAGRAPH? And you're still voting me?

[Crazy]

I dont think crazy knows what the scum tell is. If there even is one, this game is open, so town have no information the scum don't.

That is incredibly not true.

The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

This post is crap. Those two paragraphs couldn't conflict with each other more. Wouldn't you think maybe I'm thinking of the same thing you mentioned in YOUR SECOND PARAGRAPH? And you're still voting me?

How can town think of that and not scum again?

I can't explain that without revealing what the tell is, and it's better for the town if I get lynched rather than I say what it is.

[Crazy]

What I see is Crazy defending adel as town as well as the scumtell. Adel isn't even confirmed town and Crazy is already assuming she is and following the scumtell. Attacking a person for a statement from someone and stating their town is pretty scummy.

This is stupid. Look at it my way:

-Adel knows about said scum-tell and made a point to actually bring it up.
-I have a feeling I know what she is talking about, so a secret scum-tell

does

actually exist.

The only way that Adel is scum is the following:

Adel made up the fact that there is a secret-scumtell and somehow got lucky since there actually

is

one.

I am about 90% sure Adel is town. I am about equally sure Iceman is scum. This post I quoted a second ago really settles it:

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

Here he says that he has an idea what we're talking about, correct? Yet he's still voting me for pretending that this scum-tell exists. If he

really

has this idea that he states, why would he still be voting me?

Defending someone for a good reason is not scummy. Attacking someone for a good reason is not scummy. You must see Iceman's hypocrisy there. Even if you don't see the tell, you should be able to see that.

I think it is called buddying up. Is it worth a vote?

I'm not buddying up. I don't even like you.

[Crazy]

Or adel is making it up completely, and you are running with it to buddy up to her.

Hmm, good point. Either way Iceman is probably scum, though, for voting me

while

saying he *might* see this scum-tell.

Right?

[Crazy]

Or adel is making it up completely, and you are running with it to buddy up to her.

Hmm, good point. Either way Iceman is probably scum, though...

This leads me to think two things. One you are scum, and two, you know Iceman to be town.

unvote, vote Crazy

So you're saying pushing for a lynch is scummy?

You have any way to back this?

Or do you want to respond to my actual points, maybe?

[Crazy]

And btw, the chainsaw defense sucks.

[Crazy]

So you're saying pushing for a lynch is scummy?

You have any way to back this?

Or do you want to respond to my actual points, maybe?

No, no, and no.

I am pushing for Iceman's lynch. That is why you are voting me. Yet, you say pushing for a lynch is not scummy. Correct me where I'm wrong, please.

[Crazy]

Or adel is making it up completely, and you are running with it to buddy up to her.

Hmm, good point. Either way Iceman is probably scum, though, for voting me

while

saying he *might* see this scum-tell.

Right?

No.

He's saying that he might actually see what I'm talking about.

He is voting me because he thinks I'm making up all this garbage about a scum-tell.

Contradiction, much?

Now you explain your defense of Iceman.

You're wrong when you tell me why I'm voting you.

Okay, why are you voting me, then?

Guys, quit it with the short posts that are saying nothing, when you know what my response is going to be. It's really annoying.

[Crazy]

Aww, crap, Panda's in this game.

This scumtell discussion is just silly. Does knowing the scumtell make you less scummy? I don't know what it is, does that mean I'm scum? We have two people arguing that they know what the scumtell is and that the other is pretending to know, but they can't say it or it ruins it, so they can't prove if they know it or not. You're not getting anywhere.

PANDA, IT IS SOMETHING THAT ONLY TOWNIES WOULD KNOW!!! I can't say anything more without revealing what it is. Not all townies might catch it, but THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT SCUM WOULD KNOW WHAT IT IS.

Crazy, how are you so sure that Adel is town? There are two scum factions. It's not possible for her to be in one and try to eliminate the other? How do you go from pushing for massclaim, then when Adel mentions the words "secret scumtell", you immediately know what she's talking about and go along with her?

THE SCUMTELL IS SOMETHING ONLY TOWNIES WOULD KNOW. Originally, I didn't see how a mass-claim would hurt the scum-tell; in fact, it doesn't hurt it directly, but now I realize that some stupid townies could mess it up if we had the mass-claim.

[Crazy]

Knowing a scumtell has nothing to do with alignment.

Holy crap, you mean I didn't know what you were talking about? Okay, so now I know nothing about your alignment.

Then it appears that I have a scumtell of my own, then, the one that I've been referring to this whole time. That coincidentally also would work better without a mass-claim and is something that scum would have no idea of. I suggest keeping me alive until Day 3/4 at least so I can reveal what it is. K? If I don't have anything then, you can lynch me. Really, what's the harm in this unless you're scum?

[Crazy]

Also,

Unvote: Iceman

since my vote on him required that I knew what Adel was talking about... I think.

Vote Charter

. With all his nonsense talking and mindless hopping on my bandwagon, he's my new top suspect.

[Crazy]

"Scum-tell" is not an accurate word for what I have. It's more like this is the AITP and I know the identity of the king and nobody else does.

Keep me alive until Day 3/4 and you will see what I thought Adel's scum-tell was.

You have nothing to lose

because in fact, if I am full of crap, then you'll have no trouble lynching me.

[Crazy]

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

Don't answer that now.

[Crazy]

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

Don't answer that now.

not only are you wrong about the validity of your supposed tell, it wouldn't require waiting 3 or 4 game days to work.

3 or 4 game days would make it work better, no? Less excuses for the scum?

[Crazy]

What doesn't make any sense to me is that Crazy thinks that claiming how many PMs from the mod you got in your inbox would reveal scum after 3 or 4 game days.

I was expecting after 3 or 4 days that everyone would post all their daytalk... I didn't see anything in the rules against that.

[Crazy]

You all must admit, though, I was talking about something... so any of you that were saying I was full of crap must reconsider.

[Crazy]

@ crazy: asking to be kept around for 3-4 days is a bit much.

Well, obviously I don't care about that now since Adel's proved that my tell was useless.

[Crazy]

Did you guys that recently hopped on my wagon even read the recent posts that show that I

was

actually talking about something? Mainly directed at sekinj.

[Crazy]

Despite the acceleration, this is a good wagon. For the second-most-obvious reason.

Explain, please. I did something really stupid, but now that that is settled, I don't really see the case on me anymore.

[Crazy]

I think the people that voted me before my "tell" was revealed should reconsider, and say if their opinions on me have changed or not.

As for the two people that voted me since then:

@EA - I didn't exactly reveal what it was in that post. The actual scumtell was that everyone could post all their daytalk on Day 3/4. That post was just a hint so townies would get what I was saying.

@sekinj - Umm... did you read? I obviously was talking about

something[/b], so I wasn't "full of bull" as you said. This post is so suspicious to me that I'll

Unvote, Vote Sekinj

[Crazy]

So, I don't like the post-explanation votes either, but I'd like to know, Crazy, are you aware that pwnz also voted you (for no reason whatsoever), and that Walt gave you a FOS?

WWB's FoS on me was speculation. I can't respond to that.
Pwnz's vote was silly bandwagoning. I don't really know how to take that, but generally I'm more suspect of the people that are

trying

to look town.

[Crazy]

1. I thought Adel was talking about the same thing I was, until, well, she voted me.
2. I thought everyone would post their daytalk because I never saw a rule against it.
3. Adel, too, is asking to keep alive. You aren't suspicious of her, why?

[Crazy]

3. Adel, too, is asking to keep alive. You aren't suspicious of her, why?

Where?

She's saying that she'll reveal her tell on Day 3-4. Revealing her tell sorta requires that she be alive.

Essentially, she's doing the same thing that I'm doing, yet I'm the one getting lynched.

[Crazy]

Iceman, you're full of crap. Those posts you quoted WERE BEFORE MY SCUMTELL WAS REVEALED!

And I unvoted you BECAUSE MY SCUMTELL WAS REVEALED AS CRAP!

You need to read, buddy.

[Crazy]

And by my scum-tell being CRAP, I mean being ineffective, not being made-up.

[Crazy]

Iceman, you're full of crap. Those posts you quoted WERE BEFORE MY SCUMTELL WAS REVEALED!

And I unvoted you BECAUSE MY SCUMTELL WAS REVEALED AS CRAP!

You need to read, buddy.

I don't think you need to be accusing other people of not reading. You are the one who thought you knew all about Adel's scumtell, but got it wrong.

Yes, I got it wrong, but Iceman is living about 3 days in the past.

[Crazy]

This is straight BS. Townies are LESS informed than scum. How could they possibly have info that scum does not?

This quote for example. I was referring to the DAYTALK FORUM! Haven't you read?

Unvote
Vote Iceman

You're back to my top suspect.

[Crazy]

Iceman, you're full of crap. Those posts you quoted WERE BEFORE MY SCUMTELL WAS REVEALED!

And I unvoted you BECAUSE MY SCUMTELL WAS REVEALED AS CRAP!

So your entire premise for voting me was that your scumtell was valid? That somehow made you sure I was scum? And since your scumtell was proven worthless, that somehow dissuaded you from voting me?

That doesn't add up.

Your posts showed that you weren't talking about the daytalk forum, yet you were pretending to see a secret tell.

I didn't know that there was another secret tell in this game, as Adel mentioned.

That is why I unvoted you.

Get it?

[Crazy]

You're back to my top suspect.

Lol. OMGUS, eh?

Somewhat.

But mainly because your arguments against me are involving cases that have already been proven to be nullified.

[Crazy]

Paraphrase of me & Farside's daytalk:

Crazy: I comment that daytalking is really cool and unexpected, and I say hello to farside.

Farside: She says the last lover-type game she was in didn't have daytalk. She agrees that daytalking is cool. Says that a mass-claim worked in the last lover-type game she was in.

Crazy: I say that I'm surprised that the mass-claim idea isn't well-liked on the thread, and that I really don't see anything wrong with it.

Farside: Agrees. Mentions case that she mentioned in her post #2.

Crazy: Said what I thought Adel's scumtell was. You know, the daytalk thingy.

Farside: Says that that makes sense, and makes a meta-comment that I don't understand.

Crazy: I name my top suspects at that time: Charter, OF, and Iceman

Crazy: I comment that I am an incredibly stupid for not reading the mod's original post mentioning the daytalk.

[Crazy]

Aww crap, I don't want to get lynched because that means that farside has to die, too, and that's not really fair to her.

And I don't want to get replaced, because then if the town wins then I don't win with them.

So the only option is thus to mega-lurk and post one-liners every 2 days.

See ya.

[Crazy]

Iceman, I request that you say what your scum-tell is.

[Crazy]

Your replacement inherits the same scum roll you did.

Yeah, but I'm not going to count a game that I was replaced in as a win.

That'll attract enough votes to lynch you for sure.

You sure? Why haven't you been lynched yet, then?

[Crazy]

Iceman is still accusing me of making up my own scum-tell. I obviously did not make anything up, so he is a liar. LAL.

[Crazy]

Unvote
Vote Crazy

Lynch me. When I turn up as town, please look at the people who are on my bandwagon with craplogic.

[Crazy]

Can I make it quicker and just quote my role PM, or will I be banned if I do that?

[Crazy]

Unvote
Vote Crazy

Lynch me. When I turn up as town, please look at the people who are on my bandwagon with craplogic.

If you are truly town, Crazy, I suggest you try to act like it. Defend yourself instead of taking shots at icemanE. As a matter of fact, just forget about what icemanE is saying alltogether and defend yourself with some sort of clear and consise thought process. If you want to help us and you are truly town, you wouldn't be giving up so easily.

I've said my defense, I believe. Here it is again:

1. When Adel referred to her secret-scumtell, I thought she was talking about the daytalk. I didn't notice that the mod had changed the first post.
2. When I first accused Iceman, that was because he was mentioning that he saw a scum-tell but his posts made it obvious that he wasn't talking about daytalk.
3. When Adel voted me, I realized that Adel must have been talking about something other than daytalk. So I figure maybe Iceman picked that up, too, so that's why I unvoted him.
4. Now people are still saying that I am completely full of crap, and that I made up this scum-tell, when obviously I didn't.

[Crazy]

Unvote

[Crazy]

Charter, your case against farside seemed weak to me. You attacked her for using craplogic, but then why would mafia use craplogic on something like a mass-claim anyway?

[Crazy]

Farside, you're mistaken here. This isn't like Polygamist. If one of the scum dies, then only his/her lover dies, not the whole scum-team.

And charter, if every point that started with "I don't see why scum would..." was WIFOM, then we'd never get anywhere in any game.

The point is, I don't see how a mass-claim or no mass-claim in this type of game can really affect scum that much, so certainly a scum isn't going to resort to crap logic to make it happen or not happen. So, if farside was using crap logic, I'm sure it was due to a mistake.

Besides, you never even showed how farside's logic was crappy in the first place.

[Crazy]

Charter, I wasn't the only one in support of the mass-claim. That issue split the whole town in two. There were probably scum on both sides of that mass-claim discussion.

Still, I just got a town vibe from those 3 posts.

[Crazy]

No, but you pushed for the "simplifies the game down to 12" part of it. That is what I was trying to explain is faulty. I'm not sure if you realized this or not (I didn't at first, I was just opposed to massclaim for other reasons) and it seems like others didn't as well because no one brought it up. However, your reason for massclaiming is faulty, and I think it is scum faulty.

I like my reasons better than yours. The way it is now gives the scum much reason to lurk. Look at the first post of the game again. There are several people in that list that I can't even recall any posts from. I just know that if a mass-claim was done, that it would really help me focus better.

[Crazy]

But then again, the reason that argument was stopped was because Adel supposedly has something that can't be revealed until Day 3/4, that would be severely hurt by a mass-claim. So we're not doing it. We can discuss it again then.

[Crazy]

This doesn't make any sense. Neither does your recent hopping back onto Iceman. At first, if you thought he had the wrong tell, there's no reason that makes him scummy. Scum have no more incentive to make something like that up, or to pretend they know the tell, than townies do. Both will very likely be questioned about it at some point and it provides no discernible advantage. But now we know you were wrong; you still were voting for Iceman until your recent selfvote, even though he could very well be right.

I didn't think he had the wrong tell. I thought he was faking knowing the tell. See post #138, and keep in mind that I thought the only tell at that point was the daytalking.

[Crazy]

In another game I was in with Crazy, he criticizes someone for self-voting and says how anti-town that move is, but here he's doing the exact same thing. In that same game, he was the leading candidate for the lynch and he uses the defense that if he were actually scum, would he be fighting so hard to stay alive? In that game, he was of town alignment. Here, he's doing the exact opposite by voting for himself and basically giving up.

You're taking that way out of context. That game was in lylo. And besides, it's still ongoing, you know, and the

person I was accusing is still alive in the game!

My self-vote was due to immense frustration. Nhat's wasn't.

[Crazy]

I also don't like the seeming last ditch effort to get iceman to reveal his tell (post 256).

He said himself it won't harm town if he lets it out. But, still I wish for Iceman to reveal his tell at least some time before Adel reveals hers.

[Crazy]

Yeah, self-voting is scummy; I'd have to agree with that. Sorry, I just get really frustrated when I'm town and a lot of people want me dead (as you've seen twice, Panda.)

[Crazy]

But you have to believe he was making the daytalk stuff up if you think he's scum, otherwise he can't be.

Why?

If I was scum, how would I think that the daytalk scum-tell would work for town? Either I made it up, or I'm town.

[Crazy]

If I was scum, how would I think that the daytalk scum-tell would work for town? Either I made it up, or I'm town.

I don't understand this. Why

wouldn't

you think of the daytalk tell as scum?

I could only have thought of it if I knew it would fail, right? Because it relied on the scum not knowing about it. And if I was scum and knew about it, then I was faking it.

[Crazy]

I could only have thought of it if I knew it would fail, right? Because it relied on the scum not knowing about it. And if I was scum and knew about it, then I was faking it.

I still think it's equally plausible for you to come up with that tell and be scum. You wouldn't have to know it would fail - but you'd have to know it would be ineffective for you, which doesn't mean it wouldn't be effective for the town. However, you could still easily have beaten your own tell by coming up with a fake conversation for your daytalk, so no, you wouldn't have to to know it would fail, and you were obviously hoping to keep it secret until at least day 3 either way.

But then wouldn't there be the possibility in my mind that only scum got daytalk? For me, that possibility would be too strong to ignore.

[Crazy]

But then wouldn't there be the possibility in my mind that only scum got daytalk? For me, that possibility would be too strong to ignore.

The role PMs on the first page say everyone gets a daytalk forum.

The tell is useless if that was the case. That's why I abandoned my suspicions when I realized that. The only way I'd ever think the tell would work is if I didn't know those were there.

Thus, if I was scum,

then I made up the tell

in an effort to look pro-town. (And that sure didn't work, did it?)

[Crazy]

Crazy seems the most suspicious to me. With his flip flopping on basically everything this game.

I'll have to disagree here. The reason I flip-flopped on the mass-claim idea was because of Adel's supposed tell. If it wasn't for that, I'd still go for a mass-claim.

The reason I flip-flopped on my own tell was because

it was proven wrong!

I dare you to show me a case where I flip-flopped without a good reason for it.

[Crazy]

Nonetheless, making up a conversation is easy as pie. So as I mentioned, you could easily beat your own tell by faking a conversation with farside.

That is true, but that's beside the point.

1. He has been acting incredibly scummy, setting the tell business aside.

I have a tendency to react poorly to pressure, like the cussing out and the self-voting. Ask SleepyPanda.

2. I don't believe the "he either made up the tell, or he's town" argument is sound.

I don't know your definition of "made up," but my points are valid.

3. There is no night phase - we won't be losing anyone else after the lynch.

That reason is ridiculous. You could use that reason to lynch anybody in this game.

4. I still think he's scum, and you should too.

Okay.

[Crazy]

Crazy seems the most suspicious to me. With his flip flopping on basically everything this game.

I'll have to disagree here. The reason I flip-flopped on the mass-claim idea was because of Adel's supposed tell. If it wasn't for that, I'd still go for a mass-claim.

The reason I flip-flopped on my own tell was because

it was proven wrong!

I dare you to show me a case where I flip-flopped without a good reason for it.

This is funny, you contradict yourself so bad it's painful. Yes, quite happy with my vote for crazy and farside.

I must say it's really annoying when you do that. Please provide reasons for your comments.

Also, that quote that Iceman did of Farside's "distancing" thing; I don't even think Farside was talking to me there.

[Crazy]

You say you disagree with me saying you flip flopped, then go on and explain how/why you flip flopped. I thought that was obvious from the quote.

Well, whatever, I'm not getting into an argument on semantics. I want to know if

why

you find my flip-flopping scummy.

[Crazy]

I didn't reveal the tell. I gave a clue that would have saved my butt without revealing the tell... because I didn't believe the mafia would pick up on "How many PMs do you have in your inbox" while the townies would.

But still, making up a fake scum-tell would be an incredibly risky maneuver by scum. More likely they would have either pretended to see it (Adel's tell), or said that they couldn't find it.

[Crazy]

Just because you only suspect two people, charter, doesn't mean that all your suspicions are based well.

[Crazy]

Well, you just jumped at Farside's attack on you and determined that we were 100% scum because of it. No matter what either of us do, I'm sure you'll find it scummy.

Of course, Farside has to answer your questions and point out places. I can't exactly do that, because she brought it up.

[Crazy]

What I want to know is what you guys said (paraphrase only) in your day talking thread regarding the massclaim and Crazy's idea of quoting daytalking threads on day 3 or day 4.

I paraphrased our daytalking a while back. You can look through my posts and find it. Of course, we've both said some more stuff since then.

[Crazy]

Depends on the player. IMO Some players are more likely to get angry as scum getting lynched because of a case they think is stupid, and others get more easily frustrated knowing that the attacks on them are wrong. But without meta, it's null.

I got meta if that's what you want. See Mini Normal 614 and also Newbie 614.

charter's getting tunnel vision, but he's still right. Crazy/farside's attacking him is OMGUS and then some.

Actually, charter's not on my scum-list anymore. I just think he uses terrible logic.

[Crazy]

I have to

unvote, vote firestarter

.

The attack on RR was weak and the defense that it was a "reactionary vote" was even weaker.

[Crazy]

Hmm.... dybeck coming out of absolutely nowhere to throw down a vote on someone who isn't on either of the wagons, and who hasn't even been discussed as scummy yet... that's scummy.

FoS: dybeck

Why do you choose to comment on this, while Firestarter essentially did the same thing, voting for RR, and you don't give a word about that?

[Crazy]

Unvote
Vote Iceman

Nothing much to say... I agree with Adel spot-on. And thank goodness that she made mention of that "distracting" thing... nobody bought that when I said so.

[Crazy]

Wolf, did you even read?

Do you even know what the scum-tell

was

?

[Crazy]

Cool, we get to lynch

both

of them? I love this game!

[Crazy]

Trying to take votes off yourself by putting them on others that are being more helpful to the town than yourself is scum tactics.

This sounds like you're finally giving in to the bandwagon and posting some miniscule reason so it doesn't look like it. I mean, you don't hate the BIG WHOPPING CASE on him, but one minor act of deflection is worth your vote?

[Crazy]

The test of this is easy. If you're right about your lynch choice, who will you attack tomorrow? If you don't have an answer, it's too early to end the day, because you haven't got enough information from today.

Now I've heard this "no information" argument a bunch of times and I just don't get it. What exactly will we lose by lynching them? If they are scum, at this point, even their partners would wagon on them. Why would we be unable to scum-hunt just as well tomorrow as we do today?

[Crazy]

Sorry, charter, was mistaken. I thought you were accusing Iceman of deflecting, not Firestarter, and I missed that you were suspicious of Firestarter before.

I'm a bit surprised you're being defensive though, with all your "OMG Why are you guys hounding me?" That's not like you were in that other game.

[Crazy]

And Charter, lurkers are a problem, but not one that we can easily deal with without a mass-claim.

OP/Iceman, would you mind paraphrasing your daytalk?

[Crazy]

Lol, I could at least fake my daytalk better than you.

[Crazy]

No, that was a joke, silly.

[Crazy]

I'm inclined to think that Crazy just slips from view and then joins the nearest bandwagon.

LOL WUT? I was like the first person ever to be suspicious of Iceman.

[Crazy]

@OP not the whole town is convinced, i already said that I think ice is more then likely innocent who just got teamed up with a crap partner.

I'd say Fire got teamed with the crap partner. Ice has been nothing but scummy since the start.

And I believe the case on those guys is stronger than the case on me. What

was

the case on me, again? That I purposely hinted at a real scum-tell that I know would fail just as an effort to look more pro-town? Seems kinda far-fetched to me.

[Crazy]

Umm, what's the point? Does it make any difference if the lynch happens now or in 46 hours?

[Crazy]

Wait, Iceman is way worse. No way I'm changing my vote now.

[Crazy]

Wait, Iceman is way worse. No way I'm changing my vote now.

why? what makes Iceman worse?

Umm... the case that you made on him a while ago? And Firestarter's voting of RR that one time?

I don't get why you want to switch to DBE now. I don't see how putting the obvious lynch candidate at L-1 is so scummy.

Besides, can't we worry about that tomorrow. I just really want Iceman to die.

[Crazy]

I just really want Iceman to die.

that is just about the scummiest think you said all game.

Lol. I doubt that.

But seriously, I can't concentrate with him around. Even if he's not lynched now, he'd be lynched very soon. Your case on him was perfect, and I'd be very surprised if he wasn't scum.

[Crazy]

And why you want to suddenly switch to a lurker is beyond me.

[Crazy]

How was it perfect? If it was perfect, you should have no problem explaining to me why it was.

Why do you want me to explain it? Adel's post is there; you can read it. Even if I was scum, I could just paraphrase that, you know.

I like, really, really want to mass-claim tomorrow. That probably sounds like back-tracking, but when Ice and Fire claimed as lovers, that was beautiful. Then if two scummy people were paired together again, we'd have another easy lynch.

[Crazy]

Why hasn't the wagon moved back to Crazy yet? Everyone should ask themselves this question. Ridiculous, if you ask me. Even after I blew Adel's case apart, I'm still up for lynch. What will it take to get you to realize how flawed it is? Only thing left to do is wait to die, I guess. Lol. Freakin' good game while it lasted.

Pff, when a wagon gets past 10 votes, it's almost certainty that that person will be lynched eventually. I don't believe the case on you has been blown apart. Even if it has, the case on Firestarter

hasn't

been blown apart.

[Crazy]

Let me just say that there's a lot of scummy people out there. Assuming I am gonna be deadlined lynch, please start looking at those. Yes, still look at Crazy. Look at the suspicious actions in this thread. Don't follow "bologna" cases.

If you're town, the best thing you could do now is post some of those suspicions. I know you're suspicious of me, and slightly of charter. Anyone else?

[Crazy]

I find Adel's switch of votes incredibly strange. But you must agree that it's only scummy if Iceman turns up as scum, correct? If Iceman shows up as town, then there was no scum-motivation for Adel to switch her vote at the last second.

What you have to do when someone does something strange is think "Well, why would they want to do that as scum?" If you can't come up with any reason, then it's not scummy.

Thus, voting Adel right

now

is pointless. What she just did can be perceived as a null-tell unless if Iceman shows up as scum.

[Crazy]

I am male.

Please explain why Adel-scum would switch her vote from one townie to another right at the end of the day.

[Crazy]

I am male.

Please explain why Adel-scum would switch her vote from one townie to another right at the end of the day.

So that when the townie from the first wagon is lynched she looks like town.

Yeah, building a case on someone and abandon it at the last second sure makes her look like town, right?

Besides, being on the lynch of a townie isn't even a scum-tell.

Also, there are two scum-teams in this game. How would Adel know that Iceman wasn't scum?

[Crazy]

massclaim

Vote: Charter

for now.

1 scum lover pair down, 3 to go.

And...

HAHA I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!

[Crazy]

Also, Crazy, can you summarize and explain again how you thought your scumtell had any chance of working? I have read your posts regarding it several times and I don't get how you thought it could work.

Okay, here it goes:

I didn't know that the daytalk thingies were on the front page. Thus, I didn't know that scum had daytalk, too. So I was planning on waiting for a while and then having everyone mass-post their daytalk. We lynch the people that have less believable daytalk.

[Crazy]

Crazy, pretty sure daytalk is going to be irrelevant now. After pointing out how iceman's was obviously not pro-town, scum are going to put more effort into forging it.

Yeah, duh, charter. WWB asked me a question, and I answered it.

Also, is there any scenario where I'm not scum in your head? And what were the reasons you were suspicious of me again?

I'm not entirely confident that you are scum. I

am

suspicious of you because of your defense of iceman, and your case on me that involves me "flip-flopping" when you know I've explained every one of those "flops." And you get paranoid whenever I express suspicion of you for some reason. Also, you rip apart everything I say and try to make it sound scummy, somehow.

And your late vote on Iceman's wagon looks a lot like a scum-partner-bus.

[Crazy]

No, I thought Adel's case on iceman was crap and I still do. I've seen iceman play town, and it's virtually the same as what he did here. Ask Cerebus. I voted for him after firestarter's terrible attempt at deflecting suspicion elsewhere. There was no need for anyone to bus iceman, he was doing a great job of getting himself lynched. When iceman posted his obviously fake talk, that sealed the deal.

I agree that his playstyle wasn't particularly scummy, or at least it's no more scummy than it was in that game that you're referencing. Adel's case was based on a scum-slip, though, not on acting scummy.

@SP, I don't have a case on SSF, just my feeling he's scum. He didn't do anything useful day one. Almost all of his posts have been trivial comments on nothing. He hasn't done any scumhunting. Wagoned Crazy when it was popular, and then wagoned iceman when it was popular. Gave little reason either time. It makes me think that SSF is mafia, not a werewolf.

I just read SSF's posts. I agree with this.

Speaking of which, I don't understand the need to lynch werewolves today over mafia, or vice versa. Can someone explain why it matters?

It doesn't. Although with werewolves, we'll be able to pick up associative tells from Firestarter and Iceman. With mafia we don't have anything like that.

I just reread a couple people. OF sticks out badly to me.

Unvote, Vote OpposedForce

.

Also I'm not sure about Adel's scumtell thing. I don't understand it generally so elaboration would be helpful to why people would change their minds of a early lover mass claim.

Here he shows that he doesn't know what the scum-tell was.

And later:

What I see is Crazy defending adel as town as well as the scumtell. Adel isn't even confirmed town and Crazy is already assuming she is and following the scumtell. Attacking a person for a statement from someone and stating their town is pretty scummy.

This is bad. Think back to the mentality of that time as I say this:

OF did not know what the scum-tell was. Thus, how can he really accuse me of confirming Adel as town? He didn't know the scum-tell, so he would have no idea what we were talking about, right? So how could he know that my logic was bad?

[Crazy]

Crazy, your OF case is fail.

Yeah, I always fail. Lynch me now, so I shalt not be a burden on thy town.

Seriously, reasons?

[Crazy]

That's kinda my point. If he doesn't know what I'm talking about, then how can he assume I'm saying that Adel is town based on invalid reasons?

[Crazy]

I severely doubt Adel is scum. That would mean this whole "secret scumtell" is bull, which can't be, because I think I know what he's talking about...

Probably from this? He didn't need to understand what you or Adel was talking about with the scumtell. You're saying you don't think Adel is scum. Which means she has to be town.

You and Cephrir are missing the point. I know I said that, but OF is assuming that that statement is baseless. How could he know it was baseless if he didn't know what the scum-tell was?

Because he wanted to bandwagon.

[Crazy]

I have a feeling that sekinj is Adel's lover.

[Crazy]

That daytalk is believable. Dybeck seemed pretty pro-town to me near the end of Day 1, though.

On another note, I don't buy Panda's case against Cerebus. As soon as he did a *headdesk* post immediately after I hinted at what my scum-tell was, I put him in my town list. (If you think about it, you'll understand why)

[Crazy]

Someone who supports the mass-claim, claim, then maybe we can pressure everyone else into doing it.

I also think someone should say what the scum-tell was, since now it's invalid-ish. I think I'd prefer that Sekinj say it instead of Adel.

[Crazy]

You've already labeled him as town because he found your scumtell to be quite dumb? I think at that point, the majority felt the exact same way. It's nice that you can determine a person's alignment so easily. I prefer to do some legwork, but I guess that's just me.

Well, I was right about Iceman trying to fake his way through that scum-tell, while the rest of you were going *no duh that crazy dude is stupid* That's going on my record.

I do believe in town-tells, and I believe cerebus' *headdesk* post was a town-tell. Mainly because he was confident that he knew what I meant by the "how many PMs do you have in your inbox." I'm pretty sure that scum would be cautious there and wonder if townies

did

actually get another PM that they didn't know about.

[Crazy]

So, OF, the reason I'm just accusing you now is because I just did a reread of a couple people. You were one of them. I found something I thought to be scummy, so I voted for you. That's how it works. Your OMGUS really isn't helping your case, and you're just really reaching because you think I'll be an easy lynch.

(Neko's post 761 is correct)

Okay, I really don't like Adel, what with the whole flip-flop on the masslcaim/scumtell thing - at least, it looks like a flip-flip to me. I don't have time for mroe analysis right now, will do a proper one next post.

I like Adel. Essentially the case on her is the same as the case on me. It's not flip-flopping if it's for a good reason.

(Not distancing, btw, just a little lovers' quarrel)

[Crazy]

Can we start claiming now?

-Crazy and Knight of Cydonia (rep. farside22)
-OpposedForce and wolframnheart

I don't like this one neko quote here:

OF, I see your point. I think both your arguments, however, are going nowhere.

Trying to dissuade an argument while acknowledging both sides is scummy.

[Crazy]

The following people support a massclaim. OpposedForce didn't techincally make it bold, but he did say he wanted it.

Adel
Erratus Apathos
OpposedForce
SleepyPanda
Crazy
wolframnhart
Raging Rabbit
Alabaska J
pwnz
Harvey Pew
somestrangeflea
Cephrir
Knight of Cydonia

That's 12/22. That's a majority. Let's do it!

Order doesn't matter, because there's no incentive for anyone to lie.

[Crazy]

EBWOP: 13/22 actually.

[Crazy]

my lover is pwnz

That must suck.

[Crazy]

That must suck.

At least her lover has an avatar not made for pre-pubescent 12-year-olds.

12-year-olds aren't pre-pubescent. Get your insults straight.

[Crazy]

List of lovers:

-Crazy & Knight of Cydonia (farside22)
-wolf & OF
-RR & WWB
-Adel & pwnz
-Cephrir & charter
-neko & sekinj
-Erratus Apathos & SSF
-ThAdmiral & DBE
-Alabaska & kloud (dybeck)
-Panda & armlx (pacman)
-Harvey & cerebus

3 of those pairs are scum. 1 of those pairs was scum with Iceman/OP.

From most scummiest to least, IMO:

-wolf & OF
-Cephrir & charter
-ThAdmiral & DBE
-neko & sekinj
-Erratus Apathos & SSF
-Panda & armlx (pacman)
-Alabaska & kloud (dybeck)
-Harvey & cerebus
-Adel & pwnz
-RR & WWB

[Crazy]

With the recent proliferation of claims, you'd probably be outed anyway, assuming no-one is lying.

There won't be any lying. There is no possible benefit to mis-claiming for the town.

True, but our Mafia pairs know who each other are, and so could swap Lovers.
I can't see the point, but it's possible.

Yeah, Charter mentioned that a while ago. Pretty much the result of the discussion was "There's zero reason anyone would do that."

So I am 99% sure that nobody lied on the mass-claim.

[Crazy]

-wolf & OF
-Cephrir & charter
-ThAdmiral & DBE
-neko & sekinj
-Erratus Apathos & SSF
-Panda & armlx (pacman)
-Alabaska & kloud (dybeck)
-Harvey & cerebus
-Adel & pwnz
-RR & WWB

Any explanations? I see you're ranking pairs based on individual members (i.e., you have expressed suspicion of OF but not wolf and they're at the top).

I am suspicious of wolf for this post, for its incredible wishy-washiness... hopping off my wagon that was losing speed at that time, by saying that "his mind was numb" when he was voting me in the first place. I just don't buy that.

Unvote I regret my initial vote on Crazy. Think my mind was numb and the fact my lover won't talk to me has hurt my feelings, and i lashed out! Razz

As it is, I am still unsure about Ice/OP. I do get that it seems extra scummy to ask your partner to get votes off of you and get them on someone else, but then again, ice shouldn't have had to ask, his partner should have been trying to defend him anyways so they could both continue on in the game and scum hunt. I think icemans only problem is he got stuck with a crappy partner who attacked the first person he could see.

And if you think I'm only suspicious of you because you're paired with charter, you're wrong. You've rubbed me the wrong way since the beginning.

Also, Cephrir, would you mind explaining what you were thinking of in this early post:

I'm inclined to think OpposedForce was just not paying attention. Anyway, it's not an unreasonable request if you can't figure out what the heck this scumtell is (not that I do know, I have an idea but what I think it could be doesn't seem as gamebreaking as Adel seems to think it is, so I'm probably wrong). I don't know why a lack of reading comprehension has generated a wagon on OF.

[Crazy]

Wait, Knight, have you claimed your lover yet?

He replaced farside.

[Crazy]

Play-style distancing doesn't exist. I believe Adel/pwnz are pro-town.

[Crazy]

@Crazy: I was thinking scum might buddy up to their entire group instead of just their lover, by accident, or something like that. I honestly forget exactly why/what I was thinking exactly, but I think it was something like that based on my daytalk.

Like I said, it didn't seem amazing. Although, it turns out the actual tell isn't that amazing anyway.

Mega-weak. When this entire game has revolved around Adel's scum-tell, you wouldn't forget what you thought it was.

Also, I want to know how charter responded when you mentioned this to him.

[Crazy]

@Crazy: I was thinking scum might buddy up to their entire group instead of just their lover, by accident, or something like that. I honestly forget exactly why/what I was thinking exactly, but I think it was something like that based on my daytalk.

Like I said, it didn't seem amazing. Although, it turns out the actual tell isn't that amazing anyway.

Mega-weak. When this entire game has revolved around Adel's scum-tell, you wouldn't forget what you thought it was.

Also, I want to know how charter responded when you mentioned this to him.

Just want to clarify, what is "this"?

Ceph's perception of the scum-tell.

[Crazy]

Wow, cool.

Just one thing, though. If indeed pwnz was a Werewolf, as you're suggesting, that would mean that Adel completely bussed Iceman AND Firestarter, since she posted a lynching case on both of them. And since bussing really isn't that effective in a multiball game, I don't see that as very likely. So if Adelpwnz is scum, I'd bet on mafia over werewolf.

That would mean, though, that pwnz wasn't buddying up to his scum-partner, he was buddying up to a random non-buddy. That is still a tell, but I believe it to be extremely weak.

The rest of pwnz's posts speak out more like "stupid troll" rather than scum. I mean, wouldn't any real scum actually

try

to look helpful, and not bandwagon mindlessly, causing suspicion to pile on him?

And if you tell me that's WIFOM, I'll slap you. It's not, because nobody ever thinks obvious scummy behavior as a town tell except me, so pwnz could not possibly be looking to elicit that response.

Another thing, what's with everyone saying "OMG DBE PUT ICEMAN AT L-1 SCUM SCUM SCUM?" I mean, he was going to be lynched anyway no matter what, right? It was like 48 hours until deadline. (That's why I didn't find that one pwnz quote you quoted suspicious; I would have said the same thing)

And don't you try to find scumminess in this post, charter. Because I know you're just going to say OMG CRAZY AND PWNZ ARE SCUM PARTNERS.

[Crazy]

WWB, why do you consider TheAdmiral and DBE the most pro-town pair in this game? The thought of that is shocking to me, considering that combined they make up about 1% of all the content in this thread. One lurker isn't suspicious. When two are paired up, it definitely is.

So it's interesting that dybeck and Alabaska both agree that Fire/Ice are the best candidates for the lynch in daytalk. So why did neither of them vote for them?

This is not true. Alabaska did vote Iceman, and dybeck did not agree that Fire/Ice was the best lynch.

OF/Wolf should be lynched. I feel sad that nobody listened to my case. Adel, you're voting OF, and I knew if you made a lynching case on him, people would listen to you. [/buddy up]

Cephrir dinging my case as "fail" based on nothing hits my scumdar hard. It's like the same way at the beginning of the game when he dismissed the mass-claim idea.

[Crazy]

Oh, and this:

Crazy: he didn't really. I was more responding to charter's speculation about the tell, giving another possibility for something it might be.

Interesting. What did he think the scum-tell was?

[Crazy]

I don't believe Adel to be automatically pro-town, since the scum-tell wasn't something that scum couldn't think of. Right? If I believed she was automatically pro-town, then why isn't Adel/pwnz ahead of WWB/RR on my list?

She is high on my pro-town side because of her pro-town actions, not her scum-tell. If you think Adel to be scummy, you'll need some reasons. I tend to go with my gut and with my mind, and both say that Adel is likely pro-town.

And you don't understand WIFOM at all. Pwnz could not have expected anyone to perceive his mindless bandwagoning and personal attacks to be pro-town. There's no reason that scum would go out of there way to look scummy, because

nobody

would ever think that acting incredibly scummy looked pro-town.

And I'm not following Adel. My case is on my own merits. I noticed that Adel was also voting you, and since she's much better with words than I am, I was hoping she could explain the case against you.

[Crazy]

Post above is directed to OpposedForce, btw.

[Crazy]

I voted for you due to my own suspicions. I had noticed Adel had voted you before, but unless if Adel was my lover, I would never take her suspicions over my own. My case on you was independent of hers. I just thought that if we're both suspicious of the same person, maybe she could help me get you lynched.

I do have a tendency to fight against wagons that I don't like, or I think is scum-driven. I believe this one is.

[Crazy]

OF, you're really full of crap now.

Fact a: I am suspicious of you.
Fact b: Adel appears to be suspicious of you.

So, I think:

Fact c: Adel, let's work together and get this scum-bag lynched.

And yes, I do want to lynch you. I think you are scum, as per my argument earlier. As well as the extremely scumminess of wolf's unvote. As well, your vote on me is almost entirely OMGUS, and now you're accusing me of assuming Adel is town, which is not true, and is not, in fact, scummy at all.

And me acting smug near deadline is entirely false. I've

never

acted smug in a game of mafia

ever

. Please point me to any examples if you want to use that crap case.

I had my reasons for lynching Iceman. Did you fail to notice that I wanted Iceman dead

before

Adel even posted her case? No? I find it insulting that you say I was "jumping" on that bandwagon when I think I was a major contributing force for that bandwagon.

[Crazy]

Lol, I believe IcePenguin refers to Iceman + Orangepenguin.

[Crazy]

Fact. You don't (if you're town) know Adel's alignment, and while there are certain situations that virtually confirm a townie, this is not one of them, so you shouldn't be working together with someone of which you don't know their alignment.

Adel's alignment is irrelevant. Maybe she's on the opposite scum-team as OF, I dunno. But if we both want him lynched, great!

[Crazy]

^What armlx said.

OF has been acting really scummy since I voted him, but the main reason for my vote is that one post of his that accused me of assuming Adel was town based on the scum-tell. He claimed to not know what the scum-tell was, so how would he even know whether it would prove someone's towniness or not? Thus, his case was a pointless bandwagon vote. Hence my vote on him.

[Crazy]

Darox, I would like very much for you to paraphrase your daytalk.

[Crazy]

Erm, Darox replaced wolf. Gotcha. But still, I don't like how you are being so cavalier here.

Why not?

I would be more than willing to do this once my lover has agreed to it and someone I don't think is scum wants to know.

You mean you need your scum-team to help you write it?

If something in there shouldn't be in the hands of scum, just censor it out.

[Crazy]

Basically, OF is deliberately misinterpreting Crazy's posts in particular, and is trying to jump onto a wagon that already died yesterday. His case makes sense, right up until you read the posts before and after those he "creatively interprets".

No. The case on OF is because he voted me for assuming that Adel was town in regards to the scum-tell. He claimed to not know what the scum-tell was, so how would he even know if it would clear someone of being town or not?

[Crazy]

If you don't like my OF case, then look at my second suspect:

@Crazy: I was thinking scum might buddy up to their entire group instead of just their lover, by accident, or something like that. I honestly forget exactly why/what I was thinking exactly, but I think it was something like that based on my daytalk.

Like I said, it didn't seem amazing. Although, it turns out the actual tell isn't that amazing anyway.

Anyone buy this? At all? That someone could forget what they were thinking the scum-tell was?

[Crazy]

I find it ironic that you're the one nitpicking about irrelevant content.

[Crazy]

@Crazy: Point taken, I saw this coming. However, there is a difference between joking and bringing up expired issues to confuse the current topics. One is neutral the other is not pro-town.

I was referring to your case against me that one time, saying that I was making up the scum-tell when I had already posted what I thought it was.

[Crazy]

BM, who did you replace? And if it was someone scummy can we kill you now?

[Crazy]

Please paraphrase your daytalk, Darox. You waiting for "your lover" is very scummy.

I actually haven't read the case on Kloud yet, due to me being too lazy. I'll read it later and decide whether I like it or not.

OF needs to be lynched. So does Cephrir.

[Crazy]

OF needs to be lynched. So does Cephrir.

You're an idiot.

Indeed.

[Crazy]

Crazy, do you think Ceph is scum because he said he forgot what he thought Adel's scumtell was? Or because he doesn't like the OF case? or what? because I don't see you addressing him that much ever prior to this.

Because he forgot what he thought Adel's scumtell was. I just have no idea how that's even possible.

[Crazy]

Are you serious? The scum had more reason to care what it was in the first place. If anything, it makes him more likely to be town. People forget things that don't concern them that much. It's frickin' human nature.

How would his forgetting it make him scum?

I'm not thinking that he forgot it. I'm thinking that he never had an idea what it was in the first place.

[Crazy]

If we must pick between cerebus and kloud, I pick cerebus.

Vote: cerebus

[Crazy]

Crap, now I have to read the other case?

Why can't we lynch Cephrir or OF? I mean, Darox STILL hasn't paraphrased his daytalk as far as I know.

[Crazy]

Silly people. Killing townies isn't good.

Vote: OpposedForce

Darox, POST YOUR DAYTALK IN YOUR NEXT POST OR I WILL SHOOT YOU!

[Crazy]

Also Crazy's actions were never satisfactorily explained.

Which actions, just for the record, since I can explain them now?

[Crazy]

Darox, way to ignore Crazy. He does have a point. His OF case is still crap though.

OF's reaction to my case was incredibly OMGUS. You must admit that if nothing else.

Darox, what are you doing? If you have no objection to paraphrasing your daytalk, go ahead and do it. If you do have objection, then say why.

[Crazy]

Eh, not really. He hasn't done much of anything besides trying to get you lynched all game so it really wasn't like that suddenly made him suspicious of you.

Yeah, but his case on me is even crappier than my case on him. Or my case on you.

[Crazy]

BM, did you really think I would make up a fake scum-tell that I knew would fail just to look more pro-town? What it did was put me at L-2 before some people like Raging Rabbit and Cerebus actually came to their senses.

[Crazy]

Note: Still thinking about Darox's daytalk.

[Crazy]

Darox, that daytalk is really good. Compliments to your team if you're scum.

The only thing that bothers me is how long it took you to post it, and I have to wonder if you were just stalling until you could come up with some good stuff in there, since you did make other substantive posts in that time.

[Crazy]

I posted it as soon as I saw someone that was not named Crazy or lovers with Crazy asking for it.

Well, I wish you would have just said that, then.

[Crazy]

This, and voting confirmed town isn't good either.

You made this statement before. It was incorrect then. It is incorrect now.

There are no confirmed town

, the most you can possibly say is Crazy is not-werewolf on the balance of probabilities. You

cannot

press that claim any further and to claim Crazy caught IcePenguin is wildly misleading. I have re-read Crazy's posts and there is no evidence of that at all.

Why in the world would scum have done something so outrageously stupid, with full knowledge how stupid it was? It was a fluke that I wasn't lynched.

That

is how I'm confirmed, or at least mostly confirmed.

[Crazy]

I disagree with the confirmed town agruement. confirmed stupid /= confirmed town.

That's bad logic. The point is, for me to be scum, I would have had to have been pretending to be stupid, because I would have had to know that they daytalk tell would fail.

Now tell me, as scum, why the heck would I do that?

[Crazy]

It was a fluke that I wasn't lynched.

And it was a fluke I wasn't forced to suicide yesterday - and look how well that has cleared me.

What did you do that confirmed your towniness? Did I miss it?

[Crazy]

That's bad logic. The point is, for me to be scum, I would have had to have been pretending to be stupid, because I would have had to know that they daytalk tell would fail.

Now tell me, as scum, why the heck would I do that?

See, it would be stupid, but not impossible. I mean, ever heard of a scum gambit?

This is correct. That is why I am only "mostly" cleared.

[Crazy]

Please note though, it is not that I am either dumb scum or dumb town. I am either dumb town or extremely crafty scum.

[Crazy]

Now the awesome thing is, I can't be called scum and insulted at the same time. When someone is insulting my intelligence here, they're actually calling me pro-town! When someone is calling me scum, they're actually complimenting me!

Yay! Too bad pwnz had to be replaced.

[Crazy]

Actually, I'd say it's charter + lover(soon enough) jumping on the HP + cerebus(soon, I expect) hopeful wagon on me and Crazy. I smell something lupine in the air.
I don't feel the need to defend us against completely unfounded accusations, based on a pile of appeals to emotion and accusations founded on something which has been explained pretty bloody well and dismissed D1. Basing a case on that scum-tell is more scummy, IMHO - it looks as if you're trying to dig up any old wagon in an act of desperate self-preservation.

Nah, I don't think so. If they wanted self-preservation, then they'd just vote HP.

[Crazy]

Panda/armlx, you're now up to "most townie-est" in the game. Congrats.

And WWB/RR is #2.

Since Darox posted his daytalk, I'm putting him and OF a little lower on my list. This puts Ceph/charter and TheAd/DBE at the top. I'm not sure which one is higher.

It bugs me that TheAdmiral and DBE have posted very little content this whole game. And we shouldn't have to ask them questions; they should provide their opinions without us telling them to.

Unvote
Vote ThAdmiral

[Crazy]

lol, you consider it a compliment when someone tells you that you play as textbook scum?

Textbook scum make up fake scum-tells in an elaborate scheme to look pro-town?

[Crazy]

Hmm, I'm not happy with that switch, Knight. you can't go from hammering at me and then suddenly switch "'cause Crazy tole' me to." If you don't agree with your lover's vote, and you previously gave no indication of suspecting ThAd, then you should not follow him. Especially since Crazy's evidence is even weaker than your case against me - "It bugs me that TheAdmiral and DBE have posted very little content this whole game." Lurking/little posting, while anti-town, is not sufficient to lynch someone. Especially so when you have a group of four with their own private forum which would, I feel, spur each other into more posting not less. Even if they are in the group-of-two, they would have been more active earlier in the game.

Well, we can't have 9 pairs posting content and 1 not. Even if they're not lynched, putting pressure on them can only do good, because it forces more stuff out of them.

[Crazy]

For clarification, I think that RagingRabbit, Crazy, or Opposed Force are likely WEREWOLVES.

I'm going to read these three in isolation to figure out which one is the best lynch.

Is bussing the only option you can think of here?

[Crazy]

This wagon sucks. Building a wagon on an act of distancing is completely stupid.

[Crazy]

And where did DGB come from?

[Crazy]

Wait, this is about something RR did? I apparently need to read, because I assumed this wagon was due to Firestarter's vote for RR that nearly got him lynched.

[Crazy]

[quote=Has anyone else had that many (or more) disagreements with their lover?[/quote]
Farside and me were a perfect match, but I'm seriously planning on breaking up with KoC.

[Crazy]

Here's a question for Raging Rabbit -or- his lover.

NO ONE ELSE ANSWER!!!

We've already killed werewolves. Today, should we go after werewolves or mafia?

Had you bothered to read the thread, you would know the answer to this already. I am not going to encourage your sloth, if you want to know then read the thread. I am going to read this little wank of your Toster again and respond, however lynching to lynch is extremely scummy. We can catch the second set of werewolves without Adels help, who is more than likely mafia.

fos : Adel

Umm, what the heck? That's the strangest post I've ever heard.

[Crazy]

It mean she hasnt read the thread crazy, and she is asking questions that have been answered. Scum are lazy, dont ya think.

I think lazy people have an equal probability to be scum or town, as long as it's genuine laziness. Fake laziness is scummy, but real laziness is a null-tell.

[Crazy]

New list, because doing these is fun.

Cephrir & charter
DBE & ThAdmiral
Darox & starrie
BM & EA
HP & Cerebus
neko & sekinj
RR & WWB
Adel & DGB
armlx & Panda -

[Crazy]

New list, because doing these is fun.

Cephrir & charter
DBE & ThAdmiral
Darox & starrie
BM & EA
HP & Cerebus
neko & sekinj
RR & WWB
Adel & DGB
armlx & Panda

Baseless lists are not helpful. Please try harder.

They let everyone know where I stand. Granted, these can be harmful in a game with a Night phase, because they give the scum NK targets, but in a Nightless game it doesn't really make a difference.

And I just realized how OMGUS-y my list is. The people near the bottom tend to think better of me. I guess that shows I'm a crap player.

Actually, I think I'd put Cerebus even lower on the list. He kind of proved that he was town (to me, anyway, since my logic sounds like crap to everyone but me) when he *headdesked* after I gave a hint about my scum-tell.

[Crazy]

I'm not saying posting the list is a bad idea. I want reasons. charter and I, for instance, have climbed up for no apparent reason and OF/his replacement have dropped for some reason. I wasn't paying attention to anyone else's position but I'm sure they moved too. Why?

Darox earned at least 2 spaces when he posted that awesome daytalk. So, naturally, the #1 position goes to you and charter, who were #2 before.

[Crazy]

I do not understand how that makes you think he's town. Can you explain?

It showed that he immediately knew what I was talking about. I think scum might still wonder in the back of their mind whether there actually

was

a secret tell and be too afraid to post a *headdesk*. Also, after all that business, Cerebus was one of the first to actually use his brain and abandon the wagon. Unlike OF and sekinj, who continued to pin crap on me.

[Crazy]

Haha, the *headdesk* tell never fails!

Vote: charter

. Thank goodness he's gaining suspicion.

[Crazy]

Armlx believes I am confirmed town because he's played enough games with me that he knows how stupidly I play and how unlikely it is that I would make up a fake scum-tell.

[Crazy]

I don't see how posting it all at once will be helpful. It's going to make the thread gigantic in a very short time. I just think we should space it out a little is all.

You and Ceph make the greatest arguments, huh?

[Crazy]

I'll support a mass daytalk claim if that's what everyone wants, and if it's okay with the mod.

(Haha, this is actually what I intended to happen in the first place. XD)

[Crazy]

EBWODP: To clarify, its better we do a claim today then 3 days ago.

I know. My original intention was to do it on Day 3/4.

[Crazy]

All.

Wanna do a random dice roll to see who goes first, then popcorn?

[Crazy]

You know, I actually agree with WWB here. We should all post it as quickly as possible to give the scum less time to prepare.

Here goes:

8-03:
10:07 PM
Mod announces thread.

8-04:
8:46 AM
I post, show that I am surprised that we could daytalk, and greet farside.

11:27 AM
Farside agrees that daytalking was cool, refers to the last lovers game she was in (which I believe was Polygamist) and says that mass-claiming worked there

1:04 PM
I say that I see nothing that could go wrong by mass-claiming, and that I was surprised that it wasn't well received in the thread.

1:54 PM
Farside agrees, and makes a comment about how town lovers could defend each other and that would look like a scum partnership.

6:01 PM
I announce what I thought Adel's scum-tell was, and say we should wait a couple days and then have everyone post their daytalk.

10:36 PM
Makes some meta comment about Adel that I don't get, but agrees that the daytalking tell makes sense.

8-07:
7:19 PM
I announce my top suspects at that time: Iceman, charter, OF.

8-07:
9:17 PM
I announce that I am a complete idiot for not reading the first post.

8-08:
3:03 PM
Farside essentially tells me to calm down and not get frustrated.

8-09:
10:21 AM
I say that at least Cerebus and RR have come to their senses. (And see why it's unlikely that I am scum)

8-11:
6:35 PM
Farside says she's behind in some other games, and apologizes for not being active.

8-13:
2:06 PM
Farside says that she asked to be replaced because the game was going way too fast and she couldn't keep up.

8-14:
6:17 PM
I said that was okay, and I thank farside for the help that she was. I also say hello to farside's unnamed future replacement.

8-19:
11:20 AM
Mod announces KoC's replacement.

12:17 PM
KoC says hi, and asks me to summarize what has happened so far. (I didn't.XD)

8-20:
3:53 PM
KoC gives some opinions:

Anti-Adel for her town leading.
Doesn't like ThAdmiral.
Doesn't like sekinj and OF based on gut.

4:05 PM
I say that OF is scum, Adel is town; I think Sekinj & Adel are lovers, don't know about ThAdmiral.

4:07 PM
KoC says that he thinks ThAdmiral and Sekinj are lovers, and says if that was true, he'd be happy to lynch them.

4:41 PM
I say that OF/Wolf are still my top pick. I cite my reason against wolf, when he unvoted me.

4:46 PM
KoC says that he thinks ThAdmiral is the other WW pair, sekinj is his partner, and OF/Wolf are mafia.

8:50 PM
I comment that it is just absolutely hilarious that Adel is partnered with pwnz.

9:19 PM
I say that I didn't like Ceph/charter before and now I really didn't like them because they were partners. I put them as my #2.

08-21:
4:34 PM
KoC says that Adel and pwnz are scum. Adel is town-leading; pwnz is over-active, not sure what that means.

4:47 PM
I say that town-leading isn't a scum-tell, and if pwnz was scum, he would at least be

trying

to look pro-town.

4:50 PM
KoC says that they are play-style distancing (what?) and says that pwnz could be using WIFOM. (what?)

4:54 PM
I say that that stuff is crap.

5:00 PM
KoC says he still thinks they're scum.

08-23:
11:41 AM
Says nevermind about Adel/pwnz; OF is way scummier.

4:23 AM
I say "Yay" more or less.

09-13
1:42 AM (I shouldn't be up that late)
I make a joke with the lovers theme.

I say I'm indifferent about HP. I say he's acting really weird, but I still think they're town.

09-13
10:02 AM
KoC states some reasons why HP is scummy, that he doesn't respond well to the cases on him, and he says that he'd really just rather get them out of the way now than deal with them in endgame.

He says that he'd like to lynch DBE/ThAdmiral tomorrow (Day 4). LAL.

[Crazy]

You know, by the way mine turned out, I'm now surprised that each post of Darox's daytalk turned out so meaty... since mine ended up with a bunch of short posts.

[Crazy]

I've been absent. Sorry about that. I was prodded, so I'm posting to avoid replacement. Reading now.

[Crazy]

I read what I missed.

Lynch charter today because he has more votes and you all know I've wanted him lynched for a while, and BM/Clockwork tomorrow. Clockwork wanting to read rather than post daytalk is mega-scummy.

[Crazy]

Did somebody slip crazy pills in my enchilada, or is BM not the most obvious lynch ever?

Seriously, can those of you on the Charter wagon please explain how he is scummier than the guy who replaced into a role and refuses to paraphrase that role's daytalk until he's read the thread?


TS, daytalk would be much appreciated right now. Posting without providing daytalk that has been requested (and posting something very generic and completely unhelpful to boot), is tantamount to a refusal to do so.

I agree with this... but I fear that we won't get another chance to lynch charter... and BM is the obvious lynch tomorrow.

[Crazy]

2.5. Quoting any day-talking will get you modkilled. Paraphrasing is okay.

I don't see how TS's daytalk could possibly be paraphrased...

[Crazy]

If someone needs to be modkilled, they should be. Regardless of alignment. The end.

[Crazy]

I'm getting the feeling that since most people think you're likely town, you think you can get away with saying anything.

Heck yeah.

Vote: charter

I'm not letting this lynch go down the toilet. He's been one of my top suspects since Day 1. We can lynch BM tomorrow.

[Crazy]

New suspicion: neko and sekinj. It's relatively minor, though.

neko2086 4 08-04-2008 09:47 PM ET (US) no preference on the claiming, we’ll figure out the scum either way. Do you know what Adel’s talking about?

sekinj 5 08-05-2008 04:17 PM ET (US) no, some players are saying they know and others say they don’t know.

Charter just missed all my points, but oh well, because I just saw what Adel said:

because it would invalidate the secret scumtell I have that I won't announce until we have three days on the books without a lover-pair massclaim.

I believe I know what she's talking about. I don't believe that claiming would completely invalidate it, but it certainly wouldn't help...

I hope the other townies in this game will pick up on what he's saying and not reveal this secret scumtell.

(If any of you inquire about this, I will assume you are scum.)

too bad you put the warning at the bottom...

Also I'm not sure about Adel's scumtell thing. I don't understand it generally so elaboration would be helpful to why people would change their minds of a early lover mass claim.

Not a good move...

Posts by sekinj suggest that he knew what the scum-tell was. Daytalk contradicts that.

[Crazy]

I didn't know what it was, but no, I wasn't completely up front about that in thread. I thought it was better to see how it all developed. I just thought it was dumb for him to say someone was auto scum if they inquired.

I thought that "Not a good move" thing was directed at OF. And I'm wondering how you felt you could adequately discern whether OF inquiring about the tell was a good move or not, if you didn't know what it was yourself?

[Crazy]

I'm surprised you never actually commented on this, sekinj, until after the bandwagon on me had begun. If you truly didn't like Adel's assertion, why didn't you just say so then?

[Crazy]

One of KoC?

WHOEVER REPLACES CLOCKWORK RUSE, YOUR 1ST POST MUST BE A PARAPHRASING OF YOUR DAYTALK TO DATE WITH DAY AND TIME WITH EACH PARAPHRASED POST

I see no excuses now. (except if the mod decides to edit this down).

Best. Post. Ever. This is actually more preferrable to BM posting it.

[Crazy]

Posting to avoid prod. I'm overloaded, and this game is just mid-priority, as I have 2 other games with deadlines sooner than this one.

I will, as always, advocate either a charter or BM lynch.