Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[Manito]

Random

vote: armlx

because of his viral personality!! Evil Ebola!

Sup Armlx lol

[Manito]

Aww. Can't we all live in peace and harmony?

Your avatar is awesome lol, made my day

[Manito]

I think the obvious reason he's speaking of is the fact that dcorbe is kind of a jerk?

HE'S A MAAAANIAC, MAAAANIAC...

Gimbo - 2 (Corinthian, dcorbe)
armlx - 2 (Manito, Bogre)
dcorbe - 2 (Gimbo, Joubert)
Joubert - 1 (ShadowGirl)
Firestarter - 1 (LaptopGun)
forbiddanlight - 1 (Firestarter)
voodo - 1 (forbiddanlight)
LaptopGun - 1 (armlx)

Not Voting - killa seven, Lquiz, CF Riot, Voodo, SpyreX

16 alive, 9 to lynch.

-Mod

[Manito]

pity is for the weak.

Gee, that doesn't sound scummy at all

You're pretty brutal killa.

I'm with Spyrex on this one,

FoS: Killa

I'm not keen on changing my random vote until more scumminess is demonstrated unequivocally...

[Manito]

I soft claimed? Actually, no, I wasn't implying I had a role at all. Since it was clearly a colossal failure I'll explain my reasoning. I wanted to test a tactic. Vote myself under the pretense of giving up, and see if any scum took the bait of. It backfired, causing people to think I was more town but frustrated, stupid, misguided, or all of the above. However, my little experiment did reveal a few interesting facts about killa seven. I think an

FoS Killa Seven

is a good idea here. He definitely gave a more scummy read than the rest of you in response to what I did. I apologize for not continuing the tatic longer, but it didn't seem to be getting anywhere.

This actually makes me feel pretty sketchy about you.

I'm with Armlx on this one, and to quote the old addage - LAL.

Pulling something like this as a supposed "town" aligned player is bad juju...you don't lie, that is part of what defines us. Firestarter really nailed it on the head:

I agree that killa's actions could be considered scummy, but thats only on the pretense that you are indeed town...

The alternative to this, and its something thats 50:50 regardless of your ploy, is that you are scum trying to attract an over-aggressive townie.

I dont see enough here to warrant a Fos to either you or Killa here....

However, I think both of you deserve the FoS - to me, this almost reeks of scum playing mind games just like Fire said, to attract an over-agressive townie, but when your plan backfired, Killa (one of your partners in crime?) came along and helped put some pressure on to allow you to back out of your self-vote. What does everyone else think?

[Manito]

I'm with Armlx on this one, and to quote the old addage - LAL.

Meh, this isn't really a LAL scenario unless you think he is lying about his self vote being a trap. Which I sorta do.

That's exactly what I'm saying, and exactly what he said - he said he was only voting for himself in order to "get the scum to come out" - it's poor play to lie unless you're mafia - when you're town the best weapon you have is the truth, so the biggest question on my mind is why pull a stunt like this as town, it serves no benefit. Pulling it as mafia seems to make a lot more sense, as it can pretty much be a win-win - you either get the suspicion thrown off yourself early with the move (as mafia, this would keep you safer from an early lynch) OR you get the suspicion thrown on someone else who comes after you. Either way, it just seems like a bad idea to be lying like that.

[Manito]

I soft claimed? Actually, no, I wasn't implying I had a role at all. Since it was clearly a colossal failure I'll explain my reasoning. I wanted to test a tactic. Vote myself under the pretense of giving up, and see if any scum took the bait of. It backfired, causing people to think I was more town but frustrated, stupid, misguided, or all of the above. However, my little experiment did reveal a few interesting facts about killa seven. I think an

FoS Killa Seven

is a good idea here. He definitely gave a more scummy read than the rest of you in response to what I did. I apologize for not continuing the tatic longer, but it didn't seem to be getting anywhere.

This actually makes me feel pretty sketchy about you.

Truth. Now you try and make an excuse for poor play? That is anti-town. Townies accept their mistakes and move on, not try and lie to come up with reasons. I -seriously- doubt you were self-voting as a tactic.

I couldn't agree more with this post. They are both fishy as hell...

[Manito]

Jeez Spyrex, that was a long post

As far as your comments towards me, it seems pointless to me to post what someone has already said, if I come up with more original ideas about people I think are scum, I'll be sure to be more verbose.

Having watched forbiddanlight continue to backpedal and lamely attempt to defend her actions, in addition to the particular quote highlighted above, I hadn't noticed it - this put everything forbiddan has done in a different light:

I personally believe one of us is scum

Spyrex, you hit the nail on the head on that note - no one who is town would imply the possibility that they are scum.

Unvote

Vote: Forbiddanlight

[Manito]

While your defense is logical Forbiddan, playing that way, especially for someone claiming to be experienced from other games either in or out of these forums, is as has already been said, extremely erratic. I guess I'm still not convinced that your motives are entirely clean...you've played in a way that gives us all good reason to suspect you (hell, you even say yourself that you've been playing scummy) - but you just don't lie and manipulate like that when you're town - it just doesn't make sense... My vote still stands for now...I'm still not convinced of innocence.

[Manito]

Wow, you two are really going at it. Take a breather guys...

forbiddanlight, I can see your point when you say the primary focus at the moment seems to be on how you're defending yourself based off the attacks currently being made against you, and that no one is focusing on the whole reason and wrongness/rightness of why you were attacked in the first place. While I don't want to necessarily detract from the current discussion, what we should be ultimately looking at here, folks, is whether her attempts to (as she puts it) oust or rile a mafia into attacking her were one of two things:

(1) was it successful in revealing mafia?

and

(2) whether was it a (a)scum tactic to throw suspicion off a partner, or a (b)town tactic to incite action from scum - was the action itself too questionable in execution to exclude part (a)?

No offense Firestarter, but it seems like a lot of your arguments don't directly relate to these questions, and they seem to relate more to forbiddan's somewhat heated attempts to defend herself.

However, it all makes for great discussion, and I'm lovin' it

[Manito]

Explains it. Well, either way, I think pretty much everything is out there. If I'm going to die, I'm going to die. If I'm not going to die, then who is? Where is this discussion going?

This is my point.

You guys get all in a huff about "Manito just agrees with everyone" and "Manito doesn't post enough" - why would I post a bunch of inane garbage and rhetoric when I've already voted for the person I currently believe is the scummiest. I'd be more concerned with the fence-riders and the people who have no opinion, personally...

[Manito]

He does have an opinion... it just happens to be the same as 4 or 5 other people's at any given time.

No. Not reading the game and just agreeing is not an opinion. It's just copy pasting.

I'm confused. How is what I said not an opinion? How is happening to have the same opinion as someone else "not reading and just agreeing"? If we all didn't have the same opinion at some point, we'd never get past day one because no one would ever be lynched.

Frankly I find your playstyle rather abrasive Faerie. From your first real post, all you seem to be able to do is:
(1) Attack people's grammar or posting style
(2) Attack people for giving advice (which is ironic that you're giving advice to people to NOT give advice, oxymoron more?)
(3) Attack people for not posting enough (in your eyes).

Your initial posts contain no real opinion or information pertaining directly to the game and the dynamic at hand, rather you seem to prefer to analyze how people are saying something, while completely ignoring what is actually being said.

You make statements like this, which absolutely make me laugh out loud because of the hypocrisy:

By now you should know that I rarely vote.

Based on what, 3 posts? Right, we're all psychic here...

I'm just saying that I don't want to open up cases about other people until forbiddan light is dealt with.

Till forbiddan is dealt with? Yet you don't want to vote, when it's pretty simple, either you vote for her, or you don't.

I'm having trouble what to obey right now...

Common Sense or Gut.

What is the purpose of this post? Do we need a running commentary on your thought process?

Then you disappear off the face of the earth for 36 posts and come back to again attack the people with few posts (hasn't anyone ever told you Quality over Quantity?) and make belittling comments about each of their posts. In the last 36 posts did your common sense or gut win over, I'm curious - or did you just have a little brain fart?

Then we come to your next post:

So you'd be more concerned about yourself, right?

What is that supposed to mean, I'm totally confused by it...

My statement was that the discussion had come to a standstill, which is exactly what forbiddan stated, and couldn't have put it better: If she dies, she dies, if she doesn't, who does? Because frankly no one else is discussing any other options. I stated that I don't like to sit around and post just for the sake of posting, especially after having voted. My vote is in, and I have explained exactly why I voted. No evidence to date has come to my attention showing any reason for my vote to change or be in question, because by and large, most of the posts since my vote have been rehashes of evidence already presented (by substitutes like yourself, if you can even call it evidence this early in the game) or the swapping of personal attacks between people pointing their fingers at each other. I even posted something to this effect while Firestarter and Forbiddanlight were going at each other on page 10 (the page you are mysteriously absent from), which earned the comment "trying to look good on both sides" from you. Both sides of what? I think they're both foolish for getting into a heated, emotionally personal argument that led no where.

Personally, I have gotten a very scummy read from you so far, but that is only a first impression, because your posts, while frequent and filled with quotes, lack any REAL substance. Your reluctance to cast a vote is also very suspicious, makes me wonder what exactly you are hiding? Honestly I can't tell which way to read you, but I'd definitely would like to see some more posts from you that actually relate to your opinions on the cases, rather than recapping them for us with your own personal nitpicking...

Sorry about the long post, someone finally gave me a reason to expound a little more...

[Manito]

I'm gonna agree with manito.

Already said I dislike the "won't talk about anything else til the forbid issue is resolved" post.

I also think "I rarely vote" is a strange and scummy-sounding thing to put out there.

Careful Corinth, you might get the "he just agrees with everyone else" tag talking like that

[Manito]

Wow, did fl call in the cavalry to distract us, or something? Or is this just manito completely misreading every post Faerie makes for the fun of it?

Misreading posts? Is that why two other people have already agreed that FL's "I won't talk about anything else until fl is done with" and "I rarely vote" are both idiotic?

FL, you go on and on about how much you've contributed to this game with your PBPA's - but to be honest, all you have provided are short, uninvolved

commentaries

ABOUT people's posts, rather than providing

opinions

about current votes and discussions. Your reluctance to form an opinion and either place a vote (on fl or otherwise) is very suspicious.

Let's get a little PBPA on you, shall we?

--FL (205) #1: Simple post confirming presence in thread

--FL (206) #2: Rather uninformative PBPA highlighting the posts that stood out most to you, with small commentaries about your take on them. Some of your takes are mildly based on what seems to be your opinions on the actual scumminess of individuals, but largely you seem to point out things you just don't like about how someone posted. Quotes like "Speak English, Use Paragraphs", "Don't exaggerate", "I'm just nitpicking here", "That's pretty fucked up". Then you proceed (and this is laughable) to give the following nuggets of advice:

SpyreX and Manito. Stop agreeing and start posting
Dcorbe. Start posting
Gimbo. Don't give advice
Forbiddan. Stop thinking too much

So you're on your second post, a new replacement in the game, trying to run in and tell everyone what to do and how to think? Giving advice to people to NOT give advice? Who died and made you king?

Then you proceed to attempt to actually discuss the case at hand (fl's case) by asking if anyone has played with some random player from another game, whose name you can't even remember completely, in an attempt to compare his play (for which none of us has direct reference or relevance to the current game) to fl's. Then you even state that "I think lynching her is a good idea", yet you don't say why, in particular, and even worse, you still haven't placed a vote? Why the hesitation if you think it is a good idea?

--FL (220) #3: You respond to Armlx calling you out for (shocker!) the very same thing everyone here in the last few posts has called you out for - promoting a lynch but not voting! Then you make your other statement about not wanting to start other cases until fl is dealt with.

--FL (222) #4: More of your indecisiveness, in what looks like an A

T

E post (the same thing you'd been accusing fl of, ironically)...

Something huge to note here folks - Spyrex pointed out right after Post 4 for FL something very important, and FL "disappeared" for 36 posts right after it, without even making any sort of response to it - here is Spyrex's post:

Ok... what?

If you've got cases, share them.
Have opinions. Town needs voices, not lemmings.
If you dont think the lynch on Forbid is solid, stand up and go for it.

This post reeks so much of noncommittal I dont even know where to begin.

Why didn't you respond to this FL?

--FL (258) #5: The post you claim has so many other "options" is merely another nitpick by you pointing out how little 3 different people are posting. These aren't options, there is no case presented whatsoever (and oddly enough, you even STATE that, saying you don't want the fl case to lose momentum), so that kind of puts that theory of yours to rest.

--FL (267) #6: You state that you posted cases (even though you really haven't posted any cases with any sort of facts, just nitpicks) in an incorrect response to Armlx speaking to "fl", not "FL".

--FL (286) #7: You make a statement about me being more concerned about myself (a post which still mystifies me), a one line statement that really doesn't seem to contribute anything to the current discussion. Forbiddanlight's final question in my quote of her asks "Where is this discussion going?" - which is exactly my point. The discussion at that point, was going NO WHERE, which is why I quoted it, since I was getting flak from you and others about not posting enough. Why would I post more to add to a discussion that was going no where?

--FL (288) #8: Another short statement basically implying that I don't read the game and that I just agree with everyone.

Why you go off on the whole "agreeing" with everyone thing is beyond me, as I've said before, everyone has to agree at some point, otherwise we'll never get past day one because no one will agree on a lynch.

--FL (297) #9: Finally, a REAL post. Or is it? Oh, ironically, you're replying to

my

rather long post, defending yourself. Might I also add, you're defending yourself very emotionally, is the cursing really necessary?

3) It's not "not posting". It's not giving content. All you have said in this game has been agreeing with others. I have yet to see an original thought from you

Please, show me, where you have given an original thought or actual content that is contributing to anything but proving how non-committal and indecisive you are? Look in the mirror sometime

Again, read above. Saying I have posted no real opinions is frankly a lie, as I have shown

Shown where? I just did a PBPA on you, and no where do I see you having a

real

opinion - you have some non-committal half-opinions that go no where, but nope, no real ones.

No, it's not that simple. If I just post a case on someone else, the case will either be lost in the traffic (as is what happened) or people will accuse me of trying to make the wagon lose momentum.

The "simple" I was referring to was to either vote for her, or don't - either way, you can't seem to take a step in either direction (non-committal) and what's worse, you can't seem to give solid reasoning for it. Saying another case will be lost in traffic is baloney, there are plenty of people wanting to find a more solid choice than fl for our first lynch, otherwise she'd be lynched already. Saying people will accuse you of trying to make the wagon lose momentum is just you being afraid to stand up for what you think is right, if you have something concrete to contribute that will prove fl's innocence, you shouldn't be afraid to post it.

What is the purpose of any of your posts? Do we need people saying I agree?

Actually, yes, we do need people saying "I agree" - otherwise we'd be a whole game of FaerieLord's, standing around not voting and being non-committal on Day 1, while the thread grew rapidly towards 40 pages.

Fourthly, belittling? It's a case, obviously it's meant to show why people are scummy! What's the point of a case if it doesn't show scummy actions?

Cases showing people to be scummy still don't have to be belittling - you can try logical, it's a good way to do things if you want to be heard for what you're saying, and not how you're saying it.

As far as my "absenses" - I work more than full time (yay for salaried), and have a fiancee - and as you have already so "aptly" pointed out, I don't post much. This just goes to show, neither of us has any right, whatsoever, to attack anyone else for not posting - it happens to everyone. So stop trying to "make cases" based on not posting, it's just stupid.

Looks like the final vote was cast, we'll continue this discussion after.

[Manito]

I'm not going to call you out on it. I was going to do it pretty soon myself. Now, onto better things

Vote: Manito

Preemptive OMGUS? I think I've made it pretty clear in my posts that you're awfully suspicious.

Now the person who "rarely votes" casts the first vote after lynch, and without any sort of precursor or evidence? Not to mention that the statement that he was going to "do it pretty soon" (implying he was going to hammer fl).

Anyone else think that is seriously bogus??

[Manito]

You posted a case on me?

If you call summarizing my posts without offering any real opinions (outside of "I think this is scummy/not scummy) a case, I'd hate to be in your courtroom...

It's funny that you're "pretty" sure on me, with all this amazing "evidence" you seem to have fabricated in your head, yet when there was pages upon pages of discussion about fobiddanlight that had you so non-committal even though your "common sense stated she was scummy". Which are you following in your vote for me - common sense or your gut?

What's worse, we come full circle to you NOT voting on forbiddanlight after much supposed deliberation on your part, yet you immediately vote for me after she's lynched - even though you've repeatedly stated that you rarely vote?

I'll say this one more time, since it doesn't seem to be getting through to you - your two posts "full of information to digest" are devoid of CONTENT - they're gut feelings largely based on personal taste and emotion rather than logic or reason - you may think they have all this information about people in them, but that information is only valid to YOU because it's all based off of how YOU feel, and not at all on the actual information being presented by individuals...

You seem to be putting on a facade, acting like a scum hunter, but you won't vote when you feel you have the evidence - and when you're attacked, you're obviously quick to vote against your attacker, rather than defending yourself, which just looks like an attempt to point the finger elsewhere.

Stop laying low, being non-committal, and base your posts less on emotion and more on fact, and maybe we'll have reason not to suspect you...

Right now, your attitude and erratic behavior (acting one way, but claiming your normal is another) are more than enough to justify my vote...

Vote: FaerieLord

[Manito]

Manito: what really bothers me is that you seem to agree way too much, in fact, like FL mentioned, right after SyreX voted FL, you went in and placed a vote on FL too. This isn't the first time because I know a few pages back you did that too (too lazy to dig up), so

Vote:Manito

, I would like a PbPA from you instead of just agreeing with people, thnx.

FoS: LaptopGun, Firestarter

for not voting at all and then after fl flipped town, comes in and starts criticizing everyone when they didn't even vote themselves.

P.S. KoC, are you calling me stupid? fuck you.

Meh, I think it's funny that you request a PBPA from me, you must have missed the massive one I did on FL that I wrote while you were hammering that was posted shortly before the death message.

/wave

So I'm a little confused, with Llama replacing, do Gimbo's votes stand until Llama changes them? I haven't been in many games where replacements are frequent...

[Manito]

Since you need me to put it all bit by bit

Manito wrote:
Post 1: Random Vote
Post 2: Jokes
Post 3: Jokes
Post 4: Agrees with SpyreX
Post 5: Agrees with Armlx (and uses LAL incorrectly)
Post 6: Argues meaning of LAL
Post 7: Agrees with Bogre
Post 8: Agrees with Spyrex
Post 9: Tries to look good on both sides
Post 10: Once again, triest to look good on both sides.


All this is not fabricated and is not gut. It is truly what you did. You have continously been agreeing (Barning in one word, which is believe it or not, a scum tell), trying to look nice on both sides of the fence (Which is also a scum tell) and have not provided any original content, thus fence sitting (which is also a scum tell).

/chuckle

It is truly what I did? Did you want some kind of prize for recapping my posts without offering any insight on them? Cause that is all you did, you summarized what you thought was in each of my posts with one or two words, and that is ALL. You didn't get specific, and you didn't offer anything NEW in the form of an idea. You just gave everyone the Cliff notes, which does nothing to help discussion.

Do I look like I'm sitting on the fence, "barning" as you'd like to call it? Just because I occasionally agree does not mean I'm trying to be nice to both sides. At least when I'm sure of something, I don't make posts like "I'm having trouble what to obey now - Common Sense or Gut" - I state my reasons and I place my vote if needed. You, on the other hand, pushed for lynch but waffled when it came to actually voting - so who is really doing the "barning" here FL?

What does it matter that I voted for you after Spyrex? He made some excellent points as well, but the frank truth of the matter is fl was hammered right before I went to work, and I didn't even get home to be able to make a post until my lunch - which isn't enough time to make a fully fledged post + vote with all the requisite reasoning for it, so I made a very brief post, ate lunch, and went back to work, and came back 4 hours later to make my post (which was not "just after Spyrex" - it was after YOUR post too).

and the balls to say that I haven't been answering questions directed at me, which is frankly bullshit, if you know how to read posts right above yours where I answered SpyreX's every question.

Page 9, Post 223, by Spyrex (the exact same quote from my initial PBPA, and the exact same quote you STILL have not answered to):

I'm just saying that I don't want to open up cases about other people until forbiddan light is dealt with. If you (town in general) think the best way to deal with her is a lynch, I'll happily oblige. But if you think there is a better route, I'll post my cases

Ok... what?

If you've got cases, share them.
Have opinions. Town needs voices, not lemmings.
If you dont think the lynch on Forbid is solid, stand up and go for it.

This post reeks so much of noncommittal I dont even know where to begin.

Also you can't say I'm non-commital. I'm running a one person tirade against you.

Who said you were being non-committal now? You were non-committal when fl was being voted for, and you pushed for lynch yet you never committed to voting for anyone. Trust me, no one is doubting your very committed and very erratic behavior towards me now...

Like Manito says, all of these opinions and much of the information boils down to "Oh, I have a bad feeling about him" - looking through, it reads more like a wall of text than anything coherent or useful.

They're not just bad feelings. Just because I didn't post paragraphs about why I think he is scummy does not mean I didn't provide points. They were concise points.

By concise, do you mean non-existent? This is the same thing I'm talking about - you have these ideas about people, but they are all in your head, you aren't putting them down on paper for the rest of us to see. All you're putting down is summaries of what posts have been made - not what you actually think about them. Noting when I make jokes and when I agree with people and when you

think

that I'm riding the fence aren't points if you don't back them up with any real opinions - you seem to expect everyone to take your summarized versions as facts, even though there is nothing to support your suppositions.

[Manito]

Meh, I think it's funny that you request a PBPA from me, you must have missed the massive one I did on FL that I wrote while you were hammering that was posted shortly before the death message.

Choosing parts of post =/= PBPA

Posting Cliff noted summaries of others posts without analysis =/= PBPA either

[Manito]

EBWOP

Not to mention the fact that it makes you look like you're trying to scum hunt even though you're not presenting any real evidence.

[Manito]

ZOMG, Spyrex came to the same conclusions I did.

Be ready for a "Spyrex stop agreeing with everyone" post from FL...

/chuckle

[Manito]

The chuckle wasn't meant as a snipe towards anyone in particular, just more of a general commentary about the attitude that everyone has towards people "agreeing" with others...

[Manito]

I hate these types of PBPA - there's so little analysis, and so much recap. I hate reading these extraordinarily long posts that basically condense 16 pages I've already READ into a string of one liners. Only a few of your notes actually have your ideas or opinions, the rest is really just a condensed retelling of what we already know.

More substance, more of what you actually see from the posts, and less of what we all see, please...

[Manito]

lol, I'm averaging 3 posts a day because I'm playing two different games now, and I'm new to the site...

You might look at join dates before you start quoting stats.

This sounds like a passive defense of forbiddan, who you are voting at this point. By throwing out the possibility that the plan worked, that would also imply that forbiddan is town, which your vote does not reflect.

Passive defense? How is fact hunting a passive defense...?

seems like manito is asking someone to provide an alternative to forbiddan. Using phrases like "logical defense" "my vote stands for now and "im not convinced of innocence" both imply thoughts of forbiddan being town, since she is using good defense and the way convinced of innocence was used, it sounded like "but I can be" should of been added on. 'for now' obviously implies ability to be swayed easily

The entire forbiddan fiasco was a tough call, because there was so much discussion on both sides. In the end, I didn't feel that forbiddan's defense was anything more than OMGUS, which was not enough to convince me to retract my vote.

This gets good, this post alone merits a few votes. Now, of COURSE you arent going to just spam to post or anything like that, however you are not playing like town. You seem to be very happy with your vote on forbiddan. So what? The lack of a push from you to actually get forbiddan lynched, especially with the town flip on her, makes me think that you intentionally refused to push the case and become a major part of her lynch in fear of being called on it subsequent days.

"I'm not playing like town" - in whose eyes? Since you're a replacement, I'll cut you some slack, but let's not forget that technically speaking, you're the one who hammered when there was still a lot of discussion going on. That wasn't a particularly town move. I didn't push for her lynch because that isn't what I typically do, if you read over my other posts. I prefer to post the facts as I see them, and let people make up their own minds, rather than trying to be forceful and coercive...

Furthering the case against forbidden with false information (LAL) while agreeing with all other points by armix

Someone please explain how that wasn't LAL - forbiddan lied to all of us about why she self-voted and made herself look all scummy, and then all of the sudden flipped around and basically said "hey, just kidding guys, I was trying to bait scum" - please, someone explain how doing that ISN'T a lie. You can't! A lie is a lie now matter how much you try to cover it up. LAL totally applies to that situation.

Furthermore, somthing interesting about your playstyle is, it picked up the moment you came under suspicion from FL.

Suspicion? You call counting my posts being suspicious of me? My "playstyle" picked up because FL's playstyle changed drastically, and actually gave me a reason to post. Up to that point, it was largely watching a boring battle of FS and forbiddan yelling and namecalling back and forth. No logic, nothing but a bunch of OMGUS back and forth...

[Manito]

I think most of Manito's case is stretching or plain wrong. In post 322 he accuses FL of ignoring a post by SpyreX. It wasn't really a question, more like a request, but still FL seemed to directly answer that request in post 258.

In Post #223, SpyreX directly asks why FL is essentially riding the fence and not posting other suspicions. You're apparently calling Post #258 the response to that, 2 pages later, and even though it has pretty much been covered that Post #258 wasn't really cases, but more fluff deductions without much in the way of additional opinion or substance, outside of summarizing the post count/content of 3 individuals, myself included.

While I think it's great that you seem to feel safe in making the statement "Manito's case against FL being flawed", I'd certainly love to see some more proof of this statement. I think my case has been pretty much rock solid, with some grey areas that are subject to each persons interpretation of "PBPA".

[Manito]

@Manito:
1.) Who do you think are scum at this point aside from FL?

Tough to say at this point, between all the replacements and the discussion since those replacements, there's a lot to absorb. I'll give a rundown on my current feelings I guess, but there's not a lot of what I would consider "evidence" to support my feelings, just gut reactions for the most part.

Llama

is definitely a refreshing difference from Gimbo, but I'm 50/50 on him, there's no doubt he's thorough, but I'm ambivalent about his motives - can't tell if he's really hunting scum, or if he's just trying to look busy...tough call.

You all pretty much know my thoughts on

FaerieLord

- sorry, but the "I rarely vote" coupled with "I think lynching her (fl) is a good idea" all followed by no vote, and then an immediate vote against myself, his attacker, as soon as fl was lynched. No remorse, no discussion, no fact finding surrounding what might have been missed during fl's lynch - he just moves on to his next target. Bumping us off one at a time FL? Sorry, but the behavior is just too inconsistent, both before and after the lynch, as well as inconsistencies between what FL claims to do versus what he actually does.

Armlx

- no intense reads on him yet, most of what he's said has been relatively low key, I'm about 80/20 town/scum on him, could be laying low, but doesn't feel that way from most of his posts. He also hasn't had any really forceful opinions however, so iffy.

Joubert

I have pretty much no read on, I've honestly only taken note of a couple of his posts, he posted a random vote on dcorbe on page 2, and then disappeared till page 7 (5 pages and 5 days later), posted a rather sizable PBPA of sorts for a number of people, unvoted and pushed pretty hard for a defense from fobiddan, but more than anything I'd like to see a little more activity before I go one way or the other on him. 50/50.

killa seven

- Came after fobiddan full bore for a while there, until he started getting heat for it, and since then, he's gotten awfully quiet, except to defend himself, as there were 3 FoS's to him right after lynch. Most of his posts have the "tough love" feel, as I like to put it, I think more than anything he came after forbiddan for one of the reasons forbiddan actually stated, more a policy lynch than scum, because he thought she was basically giving up on the game with the self vote. In the flurry of discussion after forbiddan's revelation of her "plan", I think it ended up being too little, too late, and k7 wasn't given enough of a reason to unvote by forbiddan. Generally speaking I get a town feel, but the "tough love" could be a cover for more sinister motives. 55/45 town/scum on k7.

SpyreX

- get a pretty strong town read right off the bat, a lot of what he has had to say, I've had the odd coincidence of being in agreement with - which despite what some people think, I feel is a good thing. Nothing wrong with people being on the same page. To be perfectly honest, I haven't done an intense PBPA read of Spyrex for any scum tells, so I'll have to do that here soon, as he has posted quite a bit. At this point in time, pre-analysis, I'm getting a 70/30 town/scum read on him.

Firestarter

- kinda up in the air on this one - I get the feeling that he likes flying around by the seat of his pants in here, emotionally charged posts, not afraid to throw down a vote, but the odd unvote right near the lynch time does raise an eyebrow. Pushed the lynch very very hard from early on, and then downgraded to an FoS once the momentum was built, felt very much like distancing... Post lynch, has still been somewhat active, but posted something about connectivity issues, so not so much within the last 24 hours. Just because of the erratic activity, and I'm not feeling particularly comfortable with the heated opinions and the distancing, I'm getting about a 40/60 town/scum read here.

I don't have the time to finish detailed reads on the remaining people right this minute, so will give quick one line thoughts/reads, have RL stuff to take care of today, will try and get more detailed ones in for these people later:

CF Riot

- no feelings either way without more detailed reading
Corinthian - lurker feeling, seems to be sticking to the shadows, without further reading, initial feeling is 60/40 town/scum.

LaptopGun

- definite sheep feeling here, and just weird, not sure how flea didn't boot him for the massive string of posts from another unrelated ongoing (?) game that totally confused me on page 9, but for the most part, seems to follow the opinion of others - without a further read, initial feeling is 40/60 town/scum.

KoC

- no read till I can do a more in-depth reading, as he is fairly recent replacement.

ShadowGirl

- no read because basically no posts outside of randoms, awaiting a replacement.

dcorbe

- same deal as ShadowGirl, waiting on replacement.

Bogre

- no particular read, have noted a couple of pretty pushy statements, but without a detailed read, sitting right at 50/50 on this one till I have more time for detailed.

Will post more on the remaining when I have time, gotta run for now.

[Manito]

Do you have no response to my suspicion of you outside your FL case?

To be honest, I had to look back, I didn't even see your post on that a few pages back, since your suspicions were voiced in the middle of your post...must have just missed it.

The Faerie/Manito duel has been interesting. I'm siding with FL on this one. I think most of Manito's case is stretching or plain wrong. In post 322 he accuses FL of ignoring a post by SpyreX. It wasn't really a question, more like a request, but still FL seemed to directly answer that request in post 258. There are lots of examples like this where Manito is accusing FL of things that FL either hasn't done, or aren't scummy the way Manito is painting the out to be. For instance, a lot of people (not just Manito) have found a problem with FL saying he doesn't vote often then voting Manito early 1.5. I'm the same way though, and to me saying "I don't vote often" doesn't mean "I vote slowly." I took it to mean he doesn't switch his votes very often or vote for several different people all in the same day. It seems like FL has decent grounds and is confident in his case against Manito, so his timing isn't based on when the stages of the game change, but when he's decided his opinion of who he finds suspicious. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Apart from Manito's case against FL being flawed, his general play before the fight started was very weak. I don't think agreeing with given opinions is scummy, especially in a 16 person game. However, I do feel like Manito is being very noncommittal in more ways than one. The way he asks for someone to do something about conversation coming to a standstill but not taking a stance himself in post 292 feels scummy. In that same post he -sort of- indicates a suspicion of FL himself, but then gives the disclaimer "but that is only a first impression, because your posts, while frequent and filled with quotes, lack any REAL substance." And again, in the way he puts in his vote for FL after SpyreX starts the vote himself. Manito gave his entire PbPa of FL with no vote. Sees and responds to FL's D1.5 vote and doesn't vote. Then after he confirms support from another player, goes in and adds his own actual vote. I know he's said this is time related, but that seems pretty convenient.

As far as FL's response to Spyrex, it really wasn't a direct response, because the post by Spyrex was Post #223 on Page 9, and you're saying the "cases" (which I have stated really aren't cases, they are summaries with no real opinions) in Post #258 on Page 11 (2 entire pages later before he posted a response? Unlikely.) are the response to Spyrex's questions.

It also wasn't a direct answer at all, because FL says "I didn't post these before because he didn't want the momentum of the forbiddan lynch to be lost" - Spyrex directly asks FL in Post #223 to state any reason why forbiddan's lynch wasn't solid. FL didn't have to post the other cases, he just needed to provide information to the contrary of forbiddan's lynch. Rather than do that though, FL decided to post other cases, which essentially said he thought the forbiddan lynch was either (1) solid enough to continue or (2) he knew forbiddan was going down regardless of what he might say, and chose to stay out of the way (very scummy).

As far as the whole "I don't vote often" =/= "I vote slowly" argument - and what breaks that down is the fact that, at the time, the evidence against forbiddan was damning enough that FL wasn't afraid to encourage the lynch, but was afraid to cast a vote. Now, with me, his antagonist, and with pretty much no evidence outside of OMGUS, he's cast a vote without any reasoning given.

No one here is saying that "I don't vote often" = "I vote slowly" - we're all saying "I don't vote often" = "I don't vote without clear evidence" - which makes his vote against me totally contradictory to his actions during forbiddan's lynch discussion.

Not quite sure how I'm being non-committal, especially compared to FL. I saw the evidence just as many of us saw it, and I placed my vote (how is that non-committal?). However, I don't place my vote without pretty clear evidence. Then you say that I gave the PBPA of FL without a vote (probably because I want to be sure before placing a vote), and then you imply that I was waiting for someone else's support before I voted, and the fact that I work 43 hours a week was "convenient". Well I'm sorry that I don't have the time or resources to spend all my waking hours here watching the boards, I guess I'll just have to suffer the accusation that what I have to do to pay the bills is a "convenient" excuse.

Pure and simple of it all is this - I look for evidence, if the evidence is clear enough for me to make a case, and I make a solid one, I will place a vote, period. I'm sorry you don't like the "timing" of it, but it is how it is. Unless I see some sort of miraculous post refuting my reasons for voting for FL, the vote will stay.

Sorry about missing this before, hope this answers your questions.

[Manito]

Sorry Armlx, I don't put a lot of stock in meta reads. Go with the evidence in front of you, not circumstantials from other games.

Can you please contribute more than 1-liner opinions, and maybe try some real scum hunting? You're barely keeping a presence, and have been sticking to the shadows pretty firmly for the last couple of days at least.

[Manito]

You can repurpose a meta. Playing a town-meta while NKing isn't hard, as long as you target the right people, so that it's unlikely people link your day-play (which reads town, as it's in line with your meta) with those you pick out at night. A half-decent wolf knows how to use WIFOM properly, to make NK's look so unlikely as to be near-impossible to read.#

What are you saying again here? I honestly do not know what you mean.

What he's saying is the exact same thing I'm saying - META reads don't mean jack, especially for an experienced player.

An experienced player such as yourself can actually use a meta read to mask actions in another game.

So I'll say it again, I don't care about your meta, I care about your actions in this game and this game alone. And those actions are scummy, period.

Also: more of the aggression here, which never popped up while no-one was looking at you 1.0. Is this aggression and name-calling in line with your "meta"?

1)Name calling. I attacked your idea, not you. 2) No, it's getting bored of repeating

So wait, does this prove exactly what I just said? You want us to base our opinion of you off your meta, yet you just stated that you're no longer following your meta because you're "getting bored of repeating"? Uh, case closed?

[Manito]

At this point though I do not see myself voting for FL because I think that he is town. This is not as much guided by actions of FL, but its due to where the attack on FL is coming from.

So let me get this straight.

You're not voting for FL and thinking he's town because he's under attack.

You're not basing your opinion of FL off the facts of his actions, but in fact, off the actions of others against FL?

How in the world does this jive?

There's a favorite quote from a movie that applies here:

"My father used to say: "The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose, the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk but the third time someone calls you a horse, well then perhaps it's time to go shopping for a saddle."

We're all calling FL the proverbial "horse" here, and we're basing it off of what we see. You're saying FL

isn't

a "horse" just because we're all saying he

is

- and

not because of the evidence in front of you.

[Manito]

I'm lazy, this game sorta fell low on my interest list out of the number I am in. As I said, coming today or tomorrow.

Seems to be the case for a number of the games you're in.

Just how many are you in, and do you think it wise to be in so many at once?

[Manito]

Good posts Firestarter, and I think you have a point to some degree - but a lot of the problem with Armlx seems to be more with how short his comments (filler) is, and not really on the scumminess of his actions. I agree that his behavior could be construed as scummy because of the semi-lurking-but-still-posting, but I'm going to have to disagree with you about Armlx being scummier than FL. There are two strong post-based analysis of FL's actions both right before and right after fobiddan's lynch, and the evidence I see there is just way too much to ignore. KoC has reiterated some very strong points, and brought some into a slightly different light since my PBPA on FL. Most notably the inconsistencies, especially the response to Gimbo's "shit" post + the immediate vote.

[Manito]

Why are you quoting outside games for reference here?

Metaing and using outside situations from completely different games is so unbelievably stupid. Defend yourself with the facts that you say prove your innocence, not analogies that don't apply with quotes from games that are NOT this one. Stop saying "I've gone over this a million times" because you HAVE NOT. You always say you have, but unless you can directly quote where you have specifically defended yourself against the claims made against you, you're full of it, pure and simple.

[Manito]

yea i just read your posts, all uve said is ive done something unordinary scummy as opposed to usual, then next post days later vote me with no explanation and call them instincts.

And yet again you've poked your head in, seen who is pointing their fingers your way, and disappeared without contributing anything...

flea, can we please get a replacement if he can't be more active? This is like his 3rd prod already, and it isn't doing any good

[Manito]

Sorry that I haven't had the time to read. Have a lot going on personally that I'd rather not get into here, but since I'm being attacked for not posting reads on the remaining players, I guess I'll have to.

I'm engaged, and currently going through some rough times with my fiancee. I think that is sufficient information to suffice it to say that I could give a fuckaroo about posting my remaining reads here when I have much more important stuff to deal with. If you want the reads, have some patience. Otherwise, back off, please.

[Manito]

Sorry to hear it man, good luck with that (I had a rough patch during my engagement too).

Thanks.

Redheads. Can't win an argument with one - ever. Don't even try it.

[Manito]

My 576 still hasnt even been answered, and Manito has again disappeared since he isnt being challenged. Lets see if some votes cause him to reappear

Maybe if you weren't so busy pointing fingers, you would have read Post 579.

[Manito]

Still dealing with personal issues at home, things are going better but I'm still not able to devote a ton of time to making long post analyses.

I have, however, been keeping up with discussion and reading when possible, so that I'm not completely out of the loop when I do have time to post again.

I still feel that my vote is where it should be, Faerie still seems to be dodging questions and pulling the "I've already answered that" card a lot, even though he hasn't. I was leaning towards k7 back during the k7/forbiddan debate, but since then, all I've seen from him is a player who simply doesn't give a shit. Smells more like poor, somewhat moronic townie play than lurker scum play to me at this juncture.

[Manito]

My read on manito and corin** though are not on players that have the newb tell.

They are both demonstrating scum tells that when you match them up across multiple games

, they end up flipping scum instead of town. This is an observation, but go back in your games and compare the likelyhood of the annoying, lurker being scum to the chance of the fence sitter, the flipflopper, the follower. These players are much, much more likely to be scum. Period.

Just what, exactly, are you matching me up against? I've participated in two games on this website, of which neither has completed, and this one here is the only one I am currently involved in, as I asked to be replaced in the other because of the time constraints/personal issues I mentioned earlier. So just how are you arriving at this conclusion with me, Llama...I'm curious?

[Manito]

I still don't see K7 or Corin being scummier than FL.

I actually don't even get a scum read on Corin at all, but he is pretty succinct.

My vote stays where it is, of the three, FL is the only one I see deserving a vote, though K7 has definitely been antisocial since the lynch.

[Manito]

Oh, and one more thing, before I forget.

Meta is stupid, and it's being shown more and more.

People keep saying "so and so normally plays like this when they are X" - yet every person who believes in meta says that if the person being meta'd KNOWS their normal meta, then the meta is invalid.

How can ANYONE here say, with absolute, 100% certainty, that any of the meta'd individuals here do not already know their own meta? Are you all mind-readers, knowing that these individuals are unaware of their own meta for sure?

I think not. Meta reads may help to form an opinion, but anyone relying on them as solid, irrefutable evidence is a fool.

[Manito]

Faerie is for a Corinthlynch for OMGUS reasons.

No, I'm not.

When is a Faerie vote

not

OMGUS? Hasn't been this game so far, from what I've seen.

[Manito]

Maybe I'm just missing some bigger idea here, but why do people see Corin's statement that he refuses to respond to Llama's bullshit votes-to-make-people-respond tactics as scummy? I think Llama's tactics are pretty silly - throwing votes around doesn't make much sense to me either.

[Manito]

armlx -> Firestarter, CF Riot, K7
Joubert
killa seven
FaerieLord -> Corin, Manito, Firestarter
SpyreX -> FaerieLord, Firestarter, K7
LlamaFluff -> Corin, Manito, KoC
Firestarter -> Corin, K7, Manito

CF Riot -> KoC, Firestarter, Manito

Corinthian - K7, FaerieLord, Firestarter
LaptopGun -> armlx, Corin, Joubert/KoC
Knight of Cydonia
TheSweatpantsNinja -> Corin, Firestarter, K7
orangepenguin -> K7, FaerieLord, KoC/Corin

Manito -> FaerieLord, Joubert or K7

StrangerCoug -> Corinthian, killa seven, FaerieLord

I'm ambivalent about Joubert and K7, the primary reason they are up there on my list is general attitude and lurking without purpose. They are both my "#2" pick. Can I get some sort of clarification as to why everyone has KoC on their list??? I must have missed something major for everyone to have him on their scum radar...

[Manito]

Meh, forgot to take the bold tags out of CF's quote...sorry.

[Manito]

I'll say this again, as it seems to have been missed in my original posting of "The List" for myself.

What exactly is the case against KoC? I haven't seen any clear evidence as to why he is suspect for so many people...but I might have missed something.

Can someone please clarify?

[Manito]

small FoS

FL, K7, CRF, manito, LTG

With an approaching deadline all of you are clinging to people who honestly wont get lynched unless they admit to being scum. What are your stances on K7 and Corin, and which one is more likely scum?

Why do you push those of us who don't feel the actions of the person you're voting for as scummier than the person we have voted for?

Corin's actions haven't set of nearly as many alarms as FL's have on my scumdar, so please, leave well enough alone. Not going to be pressured just because everyone else is voting it. Really dislike your pushy-throw-my-vote-around-to-force-others-to-vote style.

[Manito]

Well, here we are again...

Vote: FaerieLord

The case is simple folks. Faerie refuses to vote for forbiddan, but pushes for lynch despite stating that he thought forbiddan was innocent. When Gimbo hammers, Faerie says he was going to anyways, and then immediately votes for myself, despite having said he doesn't vote often.

Then, right here at the end of day 1.5 - what does FL do yet again?

Unvote, vote Corinthian

Casts the final deciding vote before the deadline that both essentially hammered Corin AND protected k7.

Do I really need to say anything more? It all points to scum.

[Manito]

The rest of the case against FL seems to be "voted manito", which I am not quite sure why that is a scum action.

Wasn't the act of voting for me that was scummy, was the act of saying "I rarely vote" followed by not one, but two instant votes without any precursor or reasoning - one right after lynch (was the first vote after D1 lynch I believe), and then the second vote was a switch right near the end of D1.5 that magically happened to be the "hammering" vote at deadline. Neither of the votes had much discussion to back up the reason for the vote - it was just placed, seemingly arbitrarily.

[Manito]

I totally forgot about those LoS's...

I suppose you're right in that respect, that makes the unvote/revote more sensible.

[Manito]

I noticed armlx did something similar, but you arent on him for it. Why?

Also your LoS by the list was FL, Joubert, K7. Why did you not vote K7?

Because K7 was at the bottom of my list?

Do you always start at the bottom of your suspect list?

I don't jump on bandwagons just because everyone else is. We've all seen where that gets us. The only reason K7 is on my scumdar at all is D1 - since then he's been pretty much a complete ghost, contributing absolutely nothing.

Getting really pushy again Llama - even about a past vote. Why do you push so hard for people to hop on wagons?

[Manito]

I didn't think of my LoS as my list of people I was sure were scum. I highly doubt anyone thought of it that way. My LoS were the 3 people who were highest on my scum radar at that given moment. As I've already stated, K7's behavior is iffy, but not lynch worthy in my eyes. At this point, he's off my radar completely since he has posted very little recently.

[Manito]

At this point, [K7's] off my radar...

Who's on it? Any number of people is fine.

Right now, FL is top of my list of scummy behavior individuals. Despite Llama pointing out that some of the reasoning behind the last vote he placed was from the LoS, the rest of the behavior from D1 still outweighs that in my book.

Other than that, a lot of people have just dropped below my view of "suspicious" behavior, primarily from inactivity. K7 rarely posts, and if he does, there's no content, just him being a smartass. Joubert is also fairly sporadic. I'm still a little confused by everyone's suspicions of FS and KoC, but I must have missed something big there, as suspicious as everyone else is of them.

[Manito]

Don't request a prod for me.

Getting married today, been busy this week obviously.

[Manito]

OP why are you voting me? you have lurked way worse then me im sure.
Ill do a PBPA on you as well, its funny i keep forgetting your in this game.

OP

,

why are you voting

for

me?

Y

ou have lurked way worse

than

I have

. I

'

ll do a PBPA on you as well, it

'

s funny I keep forgetting you

're

in this game.

You're welcome

One of the first signs of someone failing in an argument? Personal attacks not pertaining to the subject at hand, one of the most common attacks being a persons grammar or spelling.

What's really bad? When that person correcting the other individual screws up and makes a typo in their own post (you're missing a space between "than" and "I").

Lesson? Don't use someone's bad grammar or spelling as your defense when you are attacked - you just look guilty and desperate because of it.

[Manito]

Sorry I haven't been on - my computer took a crap when I installed XP Service Pack 3 (endless Mup.sys crash) - working on getting it fixed right now so it is limiting my posting.

[Manito]

Can all the people voting by themselves highlight their second suspects for us?

K7 and Joubert are my tied 2nd place scum suspects.

[Manito]

The little icon below FaerieLord avatar says FL is female.

Since when did that happen?

Yep, was male when he first repped in, I remember being confused about it at first too, when we were determining that "fl" was forbiddanlight and "FL" was FaerieLord (since fl is female and FL is (or was?) male)...

Maybe that's what he or she is confused about...those darn gender reassignments can really spin you about I guess

[Manito]

Manito can you post something game related please? You haven't really said anything all D2 except "I still suspect FL for the same reasons as before."

You've pretty much covered the only reason I would post. So far, the only individual who is really high on my scum radar is FL. K7 and Joubert are to some degree, but only because neither have contributed to this game (and Joubert is being replaced). All the other conjecture I have seen about other suspects hasn't been convincing enough to me, I've seen a lot of half-assed accusations, but no real hard evidence that would make me change my mind from FL. So I guess I'm curious, what exactly do you want me to do? Reiterate my thoughts, yet again, that FL is scum? Say again, that I don't see the validity in a lot of the "scumtells" that people have been throwing around about other current suspects? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Right now the only other person who is tickling my scum radar at all is armlx, with his often one-line responses agreeing with this or that in terse fashion. Gives me the feeling that he's trying to goad and push people without really getting into a heavy discussion about it, feels manipulative.

[Manito]

And Llama, your Emperor's New Groove avatar was _way_ cooler.

BOM CHICKA WAH WAH

Firestarter - 4 (CF Riot, SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia, StrangerCoug)
Knight of Cydonia - 3 (LlamaFluff, killa seven, orangepenguin)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)
killa seven - 1 (Joubert)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)
CF Riot - 1 (Firestarter)

Not Voting - armlx

13 alive, 7 to lynch.

-Mod

[Manito]

K7 and Joubert are to some degree, but only because neither have contributed to this game (and Joubert is being replaced).

So, from an outside perspective, you would find yourself scummy?

I guess I can see why some people might see my lack of hourly contribution as scummy...but then again, I can also comfortably say that I contribute and have contributed far more than either K7 or Joubert, so I guess if I'm reading your question right, I wouldn't put myself in the same boat as them, objectively speaking.

[Manito]

Also, I have a lot of other stuff going on that limits my available time to sit here and hit the refresh button, unlike some of you.

Recently married. More than full time job (salary sucks). Also just found out I'm going to be a father.

Mafiascum boards are kinda the last thing I'm thinking about when I come home from work.

[Manito]

I was addressing how manito fell of the map and just went to non-content posts.

Didn't "fall off the map" - I made a pretty clear-cut post as to why my time was limited. Maybe you should read back over that again.

[Manito]

Just doing my best to stay with things here, but real life takes precedence.

[Manito]

Lets try this one more time; Koc is scum.

At the start of the day, KoC quickly (90) decided that the three scum were me, K7 and FL. His vote started on K7 citing reasons from D1. As the day went on, this LoS changed to include the people that started becoming common suspects since his pushes were going nowhere. He moves over to the forming FL wagon soon after he puts K7 at #1 over #2 FL in his LoS (95). His 110 is his first self-preservation move though. During most of the day he was “very sure” of his FL-LF-K7 scum trio, it seemed that none of those cases were going anywhere though, and he was becoming a high ranking suspect. So in 110 he decides to vote for a high vote getter, FS. He replaces me with FS saying that we are both alternates, which is funny since part of his reasoning for having K7 as a suspect is that I kept coming to the defense of him. Also this kind of destroys the “very sure of” scum read he had on me, passing on a lynch of his top three for a previously undiscussed suspect. There also were multiple shots at SC who people began expressing suspicion of. This is classic self preservation play.

The fact that KoC started with “LF-FL-K7 are scum”, and has slowly turned that into “lets lynch FS scum” along with the seemingly willingness to get behind a SC wagon if one emerges just reeks of scum trying to avoid getting lynched for as long as possible. I don’t see how the OMGUS of FS is worse then the self-preservation of KoC here.

While I can see some of the logic of your argument here, it looks more like what armlx just did, someone who just wants to get the game going. I really don't see KoC's behavior as more or less scummy than anyone else who has recently placed a vote based purely on game momentum at the time (or in these cases, because of the deadline) - I think it's the pressure of deadline that is forcing the switches, not necessarily dodgy behavior.

I'm sticking with FL until I see something more concrete than the above conjecture - everything above is a little too open to interpretation for me to vote on it.

[Manito]

@ Manito...
1-10, how scummy do you think Koc has been, given your last statement....
And..
Are you saying that armlx has been

just

as scummy as Koc?
If so.. whats your case?

To be really honest, KoC does jump around a lot, but usually it's pretty well backed by reasoning, from what I've seen (I haven't paid as close attention as those who seem to think he is scum), so my gut read on him is wishy-washy town. Yes, his behavior is a little scummy, but I think we've all learned the lesson that scummy behavior doesn't always mean scum (or are we all forgetting forbiddanlight...)

As for armlx, his accusation that KoC jumps around a lot feels hypocritical, considering his own voting history. That, and armlx posts a la K7, with the short, sarcastic one liners, and not a whole lot of backup on his votes. That, to me, feels much more shady than the things everyone is pointing fingers at KoC for.

So am I saying armlx has been just as scummy as KoC? Not exactly. Is armlx behaving in a scummy manner, yes. Would I vote for armlx based on it? Not yet. I see someone else who has been worse...and my vote will stay there until I see something far worse.

[Manito]

Wow, Llama.

I say I don't get a strong enough scum read on KoC (not compared to my scum read on FL, not by a long shot), and you vote me for it? This is the second time you've voted for me based on pretty shaky reasoning, what's the deal?

Yeah, I've been "lurking" - the whirlwind of getting married, and finding out I'm going to be a father and everything that is attached to that would make anyone appear as a "lurker" - at least I've tried to stay here and active as possible given my time constraints, rather than ask for a replacement (which ruins the game in my opinion, you have to go from reading a person one way, to a brand new person who may speak an entirely different way) - I've striven to keep my play here as continuous as possible, so I'm a suspect for it?

Ok man...if that's how you want to view it...

Vote: FaerieLord

For reason previously stated...again...and again, and again...

[Manito]

I say I don't get a strong enough scum read on KoC (not compared to my scum read on FL, not by a long shot), and you vote me for it? This is the second time you've voted for me based on pretty shaky reasoning, what's the deal?

The main point is what you said about KoC just struck me increadably scummy. You admit that he has been very scummy but you say you still had a "town" read on him. Apart from this odd stance on KoC, for the most part you avoided any real stances on most big wagons except for the FL one, which was only a temporary one.

I admitted that his behavior was scummy, but as I

also

said, I got the read on him as town because it felt a lot like forbiddan's lynch - everyone just hopping on board because they wanted the day to progress.

By avoiding the main two wagons of the day (FS and KoC) you dont have to take responsability for any town flip on either of them. If there is a scum flip, when you say things like you did about KoC, you can cite that as suspicion of him, even though you thought that FL was a more likely scum flip.

As far as your statement that I "avoid" real stances on big wagons - I invite you to explain what would possibly convince me, based on the evidence you all provided (evidence I found lacking, in comparison) to switch my vote and "jump on the wagon" when I felt the evidence against FL was far more damning.

I'm tired of you bossing people around, pushing them to vote just because you think the evidence is strong enough - and then you vote for those who disagree with you, in a further attempt to be pushy. If I don't see the evidence provided in the same way you do, I shouldn't feel pressured to alter my vote. Tactics like the ones you're using to force people around comes across as really scummy. I thought you were just a pushy, fervent townsperson, but it's starting to feel a little more hostile...

Your LoS was also scummy in nature to me since it was basically FL-K7-lurker. FL was expected to be a wagon forming so that is a commitnent. The K7 and Joubert pushes though never occured, and I dont think were ever intended to. During the day (at least to me) you should of been happy with a push on any of your LoS. If suddenly halfway during 2.0 people wanted a manito lynch, I would of welcomed it with open arms, I also would of gone for one if that KoC push didnt get him lynched.

How can an LoS be scummy? It matches who I have, and will continue to vote for, until I see far scummier behavior. Oddly enough, your recent bully tactics have put you on my radar, changing my LoS to FL, K7, LF (since Joubert is now a limbo replacement). Are you going to find my LoS scummy now that you're on it?

I know IRL constraints can be a pain, and (thankfully?) I am a student. I will always try to post though at nights, even if it is just a thought about what has been happening. My bigger posts usually take a day or so to make because I cant find the time between a full load of harder classes and work. While I cant fault you too much for having a rough IRL patch, what I do have a harder time with is how your posting got fairly prolific around the time KoC was getting lynched, and it mostly spoke ill of the lynch.

My posting got more prolific in the last couple of days because: (1) All the thank you cards for all the gifts from my recent wedding are finally done and sent off (2) My new wife and I finally have some free time to do hobby activities for longer stretches (wedding was 3 weeks ago yesterday). I've actually had time, after working all day, to come home, sit down, and do more than quickly peruse new posts and possibly throw up a short post.

Since you seem to think I have all this time, let me give you a breakdown on an average day for me.

8:00 AM - Up for work, shower, breakfast, bike to work.
9:00 AM - 5 or 6 PM (salaried, so sometimes have to stay even later)
5 or 6 PM - Ride home from work, spend time with the wife who has missed me all day at work - get chewed out for ignoring her and doing stuff on the computer right after I get home . Cook dinner, or go out to grab a bite to eat, spend time with our friends socially. Maybe home with nothing to do around 9 or 10 PM. I play WoW (usually with the wife), or possibly watch the latest episode of one of my favorite shows on Hulu - usually done with all that around midnight or 1 AM.
12/1 AM - Head to bed to get enough sleep for the next day.

Everything above takes decided priority over lengthy MS posts. Sorry if you find that scummy - but I really don't care I participate here to have fun - not to live vicariously through it

The fact that you also were comparing KoC to armlx in vote movements also doesnt make much sense. Most of the votes that KoC moved around were not on a deadline like your post would of had us belive. Armlx made a more deadline/action vote. The fact that you call KoC town from this and armlx odd but "not enough to vote" feels like planting seeds of doubt and trying to look good before a KoC lynch... and at this point I am rambling so stop.

Most of the votes that moved to KoC moved there because they wanted the day to move along - you need to go back and read again - at least two of the posts said something along the lines of "let's get this day moving along" along with their vote for KoC. I stated my reasoning for not voting for KoC - I feel that my vote for FL is where it belongs, based on the evidence I feel is most relevant. My decision not to change my vote had nothing to do with "looking good before a KoC lynch" - making a statement like that feels really scummy by the way - did you know something before the lynch that we all didn't? Here you are again, saying that I'm scummy because I wasn't bullied into changing my vote to KoC when I felt the evidence against him wasn't strong enough. What is up with that? Why do you feel like you can push other people's votes around?

[Manito]

Llama, here are two of the last 3 votes placed on KoC, which both reference moving the game along and/or the deadline.

Need I say more?

Vote KoC

Lets get this game moving somewhere.

Pfft. I asked for an updated PbPA on killa seven from Knight of Cydonia. I don't remember seeing it. Deadline's looming, and I don't see a Firestarter lynch in this half of the day.

Unvote: Firestarter
Vote: Knight of Cydonia

THIS IS LYNCH MINUS ONE.

[Manito]

Oh, and now we're headed out to dinner with our roommate, because my wife is bugging the hell out of me for taking so long for the above post, because she's hungry

Catch you all later

[Manito]

I didn't think it was possible for someone to give me evidence more convincing that what I'd seen with FaerieLord.

Guess I was wrong.

Good game spyrex, that was incredibly long, but definitely worth the read.

Unvote: FaerieLord
Vote: Firestarter

[Manito]

Bye FS. If he's town, he may be right about who to target. I wish we would've waited for the lurkers to make a post, but too late for regrets now.

Is there already a prod out on K7? I thought I saw a request, but wasn't sure if flea had caught it yet...

[Manito]

TSN, can you please restate/clarify your case on SC?

SOLITAIRE

StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)

Not voting - armlx, Joubert, killa seven, FaerieLord, SpryeX, LlamaFluff, orangepenguin, Manito, StrangerCoug

With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

-Mod

[Manito]

You said it was like fl in the sense that he was scummy but that was not necessarily indicative of alignment. If you think that someone is performing scummy actions it means that you should think the player is scum. It makes no sense to say "yes player X is doing lots of scummy things, oh yeah player X is town".

It does make sense to say that when we've seen the same sort of behavior from KoC that we saw from fl. While I didn't think KoC's behavior was right, it didn't feel like scum to me, and certainly not in comparison to FL (which, as we've seen again, continues to be worse than KoC's ever was). I'd appreciate it if you don't tell me how I should think, I'm sorry that I didn't jump on your wagon like a good little sheep, I didn't feel the evidence was strong enough to support the case. It's this thing called "reasonable doubt" - you should go look that up

You said yourself you found KoC scummy, so why was it lacking? The fact that FS is the only wagon you have hopped on really this whole game, especially when you consider that nearly every player was on one of K7/Corin, on top of the recent KoC wagon. Constant avoidance of town wagons, especially when the wagon that you are pushing just sits there for the most part is scummy. It is distancing from town lynches.

I found the KoC wagon lacking because there wasn't anyone willing to explain in clear, consolidated, firm terms why they thought KoC was scum. Your explaination was weak at best, if I remember, it was something along the lines of 3 lines of text. I go with the evidence, not gut based on the opinion of one wagon pusher like you Llama. Spyrex's evidence and massive explanatory post was extremely well supported, and at that point it was enough to convince me to change my vote from FL. Unfortunate that Spyrex was wrong, but the fact of the matter is FS's play had been quite scummy, and Spyrex did an excellent (though in hindsight, "bad") job of making a case. You say my behavior is distancing from town lynches - I'm sorry I don't go off half-cocked and just vote for whoever you're pushing the vote for Llama. I'll try and be a good sheep in the future and follow everything you say...

*headscratch* Being vocal and trying to get my suspects lynched is scummy now? Also nice attempt to try and make my attack on you some offshoot of OMGUS. I think you are scum, I vote for you, I try and get you lynched. Its how you play the game, and part of playing that game is getting my point accross any way I can. If you dont agree with what I have to say that is (sort of) fine with me, I will just keep trying to prove why I think that I am right untill it becomes either something that wont happen, or someone presents a case that appears better then the one I am pushing. This whole paragraph though basically boils down to OMGUS and you trying to make my presence as leader into me being scum.

There's a big difference between being "vocal" and being "bossy" - and you are definitely the latter. If someone doesn't immediately follow your lead, you call them scummy and/or vote for them immediately to pressure them into following you. That isn't voicing an opinion - that's forcing it.

Yeah now it is very scummy. The fact that K7 is on there and you STILL did not vote for him D1.5 is bugging me a lot. Also the fact that apparently you had Joubert on there because he was lurking is pretty scummy since now that he is being replaced, you seem to be wanting to drop that case. Also the OMGUS of adding me, that is scummy too.

So let me get this straight, because I haven't voted for K7 (who is

second

on my LoS), and have continued to vote for FL (who is

first

on my LoS) until the FS case was presented by Spyrex, my LoS is scummy?

Your logic completely failed there. I've been following my LoS to the letter. Why in the world would I vote for the #2 on my LoS when the #1 is still around? Joubert is still high on my radar, but your attitude and pushy behavior has raised you above him. If Joubert was actually posting/playing, I might have more reason to suspect him, but at this point, there's nothing to make a case with except his lurker status. You, on the other hand, are continuing to demonstrate scummy behavior.

OK this here is one of my biggest problems with the way you are playing. You are not trying to get scum lynched. There is a massive difference in the way that the two of us are pushing our cases. I say "KoC is scum", get a few votes, then I say "KoC is scum also beacause of X", get a few more vote, explain it a better way and get him lynched. Meanwhile you say "FL is scum", get a few votes. Then you stop talking about why FL is scum, and why you stop talking there is what I want to know. With the strength that you seem to oppose the lynch of anyone who isnt a lurker (K7, Joubert) or the people who want you lynched (FL, me), you need to give more reasons or at least keep updating them. At least do a decent sized posts saying why you want these players lynched instead of saying "What I said before". It is pretty hypocritical of you to even be asking TSN for reasoning when you havent really said anything of merit to get us to listen to you. This game is half figuring out who is scum and half getting people to listen to you.

I'm not playing to get scum lynched? All because I didn't vote for KoC, who I said I didn't think was scum multiple times, for all the reasons I previously stated? C'mon, I know you can do better than that Llama. I've stated FL's scum reasons multiple times, but I can certainly reiterate them again.

• --FL says he doesn't vote often. Pushes fl's mislynch heavily, but doesn't ever vote her. As soon as D1.5 started, immediately votes for me in OMGUS fashion, based on less evidence than fl and with minimal discussion.
  
  --End of D1.5, FL makes the deciding (essentially hammer) vote on Corinthian for a second mislynch.
  
  --D2.0, FL was refusing to put a vote anywhere because he felt "pressured" and that any vote he placed would be a "distraction". A distraction from what, lynching possible scum, or a distraction from another mislynch, which FL was more than happy to let happen. Then FL
  starts
  the wagon on KoC, which is immediately hopped on by another person on my LoS, K7. Funny how that works, isn't it? K7 started the mislynch on fl on D1.0, and FL pushed it hard. Puts K7 and FL very close together in my mind, always seem to be working in concert to some degree.

Face the facts, folks - FL has been incredibly scummy from Day 1. He's just stuck to the shadows enough to keep the past two 3+ votes against him from going to lynch. I think it is high time FL answers for his actions.

Vote: FaerieLord

again........




On a side note, anyone find it funny that Spyrex swapped from FS to hammer KoC for D2.0, and then made an amazing post to get FS lynched on D2.5? I just noticed that while re-reading FL's history.

[Manito]

On a side note, anyone find it funny that Spyrex swapped from FS to hammer KoC for D2.0, and then made an amazing post to get FS lynched on D2.5? I just noticed that while re-reading FL's history.

Not really, this has been explained a fair amount already.

Was the switch because of that previous agreement thing? Is that what you're referring to?

[Manito]

Was the switch because of that previous agreement thing? Is that what you're referring to?

It had more to do with the fact that the game was just completely stalled at that time and for some reason no one was willing to wagon FS, so a swap had to be made.

Actually, in retrospect, I'm now suspicious of those who were on the KoC wagon and refused to vote FS in the first part of D2 then voted him the second part. Not sure who that is, but it was a good way to milk another mislynch out of the scenario.

As someone who didn't vote FS the first part of D2, I think that's BS

Only reason I switched from FL to FS was because of Spyrex's case during D2.5 - without the clear-cut representation of fact he laid out, I wouldn't have changed from FL.

[Manito]

As someone who didn't vote FS the first part of D2, I think that's BS

You didn't vote KoC during part 1.

The coinciding groups are myself, SpyreX, SC, Llama, and OP. Time to reread and see who directly opposed an FS lynch at the time KoC died (Llama I know did)

Yeah, I reread your post and was in the process of going back and looking.

However, I'm trying to see the logic here. You're looking for people who refused to vote FS and chose KoC instead on D2.0 (people who never switched from FS to KoC) who then voted FS the next day, right? How would this provide any evidence, just out of curiousity? FS and KoC were both suspects for an almost equal number of people, how would not switching one day and voting for the non-lynchee the next day give us clues?

[Manito]

Yeah, the start of D2.5 was FS and others hopping on Spyrex at first, and it ended up getting turned around towards FS.

Interesting note with what you said about Llama opposing an FS lynch when KoC died, I found this:

Thought about this for a while. I dont think a clean sweap of the four players is a good move in our current position.

While I would definantly expect there to be scum in the four, the fact that we would just be going down the list basically kills any connections between scum that we normally would be able to derive from rival wagons and who defends who. Part of the benifits of lynching scum are seeing connections, and there will be no more connections if we go through with this.

This is in reference to the recurring list of suspects from most everyone: SC, K7, FL, FS that you posted about on page 65. FS was on that list, and LF was against sweeping through those. A little out of character for LF, who is usually pretty gung-ho about going for scum suspects.

[Manito]

Thought about this for a while. I dont think a clean sweap of the four players is a good move in our current position.

While I would definantly expect there to be scum in the four, the fact that we would just be going down the list basically kills any connections between scum that we normally would be able to derive from rival wagons and who defends who. Part of the benifits of lynching scum are seeing connections, and there will be no more connections if we go through with this.

This is in reference to the recurring list of suspects from most everyone: SC, K7, FL, FS that you posted about on page 65. FS was on that list, and LF was against sweeping through those. A little out of character for LF, who is usually pretty gung-ho about going for scum suspects.

Yeah I didnt want to lynch four straight people without too much discussion. If you actually wanted to anything like that its just another reason we should be lynching you over FL right now. I suspected FS? Yeah I did after KoC flipped, a lot of my thoughts on him were town given that KoC was scum, mixed with his meta. I suspected SC? Yeah I did, I still think he is a decent lynch, although we should be lynching you first. I still think that K7 is town though, and that FL is also probally town. There is no point for me to even start agreeing with an idea that kills two players that I have on the town side on my equation. Now you are streaching trying to call me scum for not wanting to overkill four players which of I only had two as scum.

One question Llama - why are you so quick to defend FL and K7?

Especially considering I've pointed out a connection between those two.

And considering their behavior has been as scummy/worse than some of the lynches that have already passed. Why aren't you all over that like white on rice?

Sure seems like you're going through a lot of trouble to protect those two, when I've never, EVER seen you go to any great lengths to protect ANYONE.

[Manito]

OK, Manito's posts that I personally don't like. Yes, these are all from Day 1.0.

I think the obvious reason he's speaking of is the fact that dcorbe is kind of a jerk?

This is an ad hominem.

pity is for the weak.

Gee, that doesn't sound scummy at all

You're pretty brutal killa.

I'm with Spyrex on this one,

FoS: Killa

I'm not keen on changing my random vote until more scumminess is demonstrated unequivocally...

I have reason to believe that this is sarcasm, but the vote here is still weak.

Spyrex, you hit the nail on the head on that note - no one who is town would imply the possibility that they are scum.

Unvote

Vote: Forbiddanlight

Another weak vote. Wishy-washy, aren't we?

Are you really trying to build a case based on D1.0 votes and quotes?

[Manito]

I haven't been on a lynch at all? Did you two miss D2.5?

The reason for me not "hopping the wagon" that would be what...or have you forgotten how to read?

I believe FL to be scum. No one else had posted anything remotely convincing compared to the behavior that I saw FL demonstrate (and have continued to see him demonstrate) until Spyrex posted his case on FS. I was a part of that lynch because Spyrex's evidence was more damning than my evidence against FL.

Now I'm sorry that I haven't been a good little sheep and followed your every wagon Llama, but I don't play like that. I look for clear-cut evidence, and if it isn't there, I won't jump to vote.

Posting a reply to Llama's "case" if you want to call it that, separately.

[Manito]

lol @ reasonable doubt being mentioned in a pure vanilla mafia game first off. My main thing is when you think someone is town, there is no reason to be letting them get lynched without fighting it. Sure you showed up as KoC was going down, but what did you say "He looks scummy, but I think he is town given similarities to fl lynch". That was about it, no real strong move to save him. If you think a player is town you act accordingly when they are threatened. Your read on KoC seems to be fishing for cit points as you were opposing a lynch of the hot topic townie. Also the fact that you havent jumped on any wagons - That is a scum tell to me, especially when we havent lynched scum. If you consistantly distance yourself from every wagon (I think fl and FS are the only ones you have been a part of), while not really putting on a show to get FL lynched in your case makes it seem like you are just playing it safe by pushing a wagon but not letting it get anywhere. I did this once as scum in a large game, pushed a wagon of town for about five days before I carried through with a real lynch attempt. This gave me solid reasoning to avoid all other wagons.

You honestly think I could stop anyone here from lynching someone I thought was probably town? From everything I've seen, most everyone here is more than happy to lynch based on pretty loose cases. I did the only thing I could do - state my reason for not suspecting him, and refused to vote him based on that reasoning. I'm sorry that you don't think that is good enough.

Your logic that "because Manito has been part of only two wagons, he must be scum" is flawed. One could just as easily make the same statement about you - "because Llama has been part of every single wagon, he must be scum" using the logic that you make sure that you are at the forefront, driving every wagon and pushing people around like you do, hiding in plain sight.

It's just a simple case of you and I having different play styles. You're arrogant, pushy, and willing to jump on any wagon passing by so long as the momentum is good. I'm careful, methodical, logical, and I won't be pressured into making a decision I don't feel is backed by facts.

Ok this is hypocritcal AND wrong. I made a lot of posts about why KoC was the lynch if you go back through my posts. I think within my first five posts I had a bigger case up on him then you have made this whole game. That leads to it being hypocritical, all you say, day in and out are "Lynch FL for serious guys, just like I said earlier". I think untill I nearly dragged it out of you about a page ago you haddent even listed reasoning for over a day. Nice buddying up to Spyrex though by complementing him on having a case good enough to sway you.

Buddying up to Spyrex? Did you read his post? It was well written and well backed up. How is complementing him on that "buddying?" You're always so emotional and bossy in your posts, why is that?

Go look up hypocritical - my behavior is anything but. A hypocritical person "feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude" - and I think it's pretty safe to say that my desire to lynch FL has not been "publicly approved" at any point during this game. Amazing how that works, isn't it? At one point, FL had 3 votes, but then Llama steps in, starts a new wagon, and FL's votes go away.

Lets see... I said you were scum basically upon entering into this game. Yeah thats definantly some sort of reverse OMGUS going on where because you arent supporting my wagons you have to be scum. This is just complete misrep and OMGUS.

Reverse OMGUS? Explain how that works please. Is that like OMGIS (Oh My God I'm Scum)?

My statement, in case you didn't read it the first time clearly, says that you aren't just being "vocal". Vocal means you state, clearly, over and over, the case you have presented. "Bossy", which is what you really are, is you being vocal, and then, when people

don't

follow your lead, you immediately vote for them or point a finger in their direction in an effort to force them to vote. That's the difference between the two. Isn't OMGUS in any fashion - just a statement of fact.

Swing and a miss. Day 1.5 the two wagons were Corin and K7, this was RIGHT before deadline hit too. Lets look back and see how you took this opportunity to get your #2 player on your LoS lynched... wait, you didnt. I honestly cant even start to comprehend how town would ever be willing to let a chance to pass up getting their #2 suspect lynched, when it is OBVIOUS that their #1 has ZERO shot at getting lynched. Seriously. The only reason I can see you staying on FL over moving to K7 is the hope of leaving a K7 mislynch for later in the day, or you are scum with him and doing the "oh yeah he is suspicious, but I dont want to vote him" move.

Are you really not paying attention? Do you not remember WHY K7 was on my "list"? He was on my list because I didn't have anyone else who was particularly scummy at that point, so K7 AND Joubert were both my #2 suspects merely for being lurkers. So I'm so sorry that I didn't take the opportunity to lynch a lurker suspect before he had a chance to say anything in his defense...

This was about the D1 actions, when one suspect drops off lynch possibility though, you dont just camp there and blame the other players at a mislynch. I do like the admission of your long time #2 suspect being purely there for being a lurker. Thats another great reason to be lynching you today. Interestingly enough I now seem to be a suspect of yours (if we really want to discount the OMGUS reasoning) for being too active and pushing my cases too "aggressively"

You are suspect for more reasons than just being too active and being bossy. Firestarter specifically said in his last post before YOU hammered him, that someone calling the shots should be next. You've done a wonderful job of trying to put everyone's attention elsewhere - I think at this point we should listen to the dead a little, and try and make something of it. Firestarter's list was:

Next up should be one calling the shots.. armlx, Spyrex, CFR, LF..

Ok the last few times you had even MENTIONED FL before these posts it was "what I said the day before" with a few one line shots thrown in as the day went on. That is hardly pushing. What I have done is pushing, what Spyrex did is pushing. You have been camping on a dead wagon, acting like you are being useful.

You're right, I really should be looking harder at other suspect possibilities too. FL is still particularly high on my list. As I stated above, I think Firestarter's idea to look harder at those pushing all the major wagons is where we should be at this point. At this point, the only other person I've seen with what I consider particularly fishy play has been you and your bossy play. Here's something for everyone to consider:

Spyrex posts facts, backed up and eloquently delivered, to push a vote.

LlamaFluff posts some facts, loosely backed by his gut instincts or interpretation of events, and then votes/finger-points at non-voters to push them to vote.

Note the difference? A good case will stand on it's own two legs. A poor case, or an intentional mislynch disguised as a case, requires a few more legs to get it rolling.

Case and point, folks. Firestarter suggested we go after a leader, and Llama's "leadership" style seems most suspect.

Unvote: FaerieLord
Vote: LlamaFluff

[Manito]

I'm off to work, I'll check back later in the evening.

[Manito]

Case and point, folks. Firestarter suggested we go after a leader, and Llama's "leadership" style seems most suspect.

No, that's bad logic. FS never even made a real case on anyone, just OMGUSed. If he had made legit cases we ignored because he was scummier then them, then we could go back and look at them.

Not saying that he ever necessarily made a real case, just that he made a pretty good suggestion to go after one of the vocal leader types.

[Manito]

While yes, I realize my vote against LF seems a little OMGUS since he just voted for me, I've also been building to this over time. I have stated, every single time LF votes, and someone doesn't vote with him and/or openly opposes him, that person gets voted/pressured by LF. Case and point, he's been after me from the start, mainly because of my pressure on FL (who I still believe to be scum). What really re-enforces my case is the evidence. FL was a hardcore pusher for forbiddanlight's lynch. K7 started the wagon on forbiddanlight. LlamaFluff's predecessor hammered forbiddanlight's lynch. Llama vehemently defends FL and K7, but won't go into detail about why he is so sure they are town, especially given their behavior (which I have clearly demonstrated as scummy, but he refuses to see reason).

For those facts, I think that Llama is the better choice for a lynch than FL today is, because of the following reasons - FL is being replaced, and can't defend himself; Llama is a loud, pushy voice, and he's using it to effect the voting atmosphere heavily - which, as scum, is a huge advantage to him, especially this close to end game. I'm sticking with Llama for now.

Back to work, lunch is over

[Manito]

Working on replies to both LF and Spyrex. Will be a bit, have to research specific quotes.

[Manito]

Ok, again we're going to do a breakdown (electric bugaloo)
1.) LF pressures people that dont agree with him - I see it to a degree, but you say EVERY time: please give all the examples.
2.) You say you still believe FL is scum.
3.) You say Llama is scum because Gimbo was the FL hammer on the train K7 started.
4.) You say Llama vehemently defends FL and K7. Again, you used one of those magic words that requires examples.

1. Examples of LF pressuring people, either by FoSing/accusing or voting them directly. Also examples for your 4th question, places where Llama defends FL.

Post #404 - LF votes KoC - reason? To elicit a response.

• Lets get a response to my case in 393 and what CFRs 398 had to add this time instead of a odd post about Gimbo (me) being odd around FL who you are currently voting.

Post #431 - LF votes Corinthian - reason? To elicit a response.

• unvote
  vote Corinathin

  
  
  untill I get some answers to 392

Post #434 - LF makes the following statement about voting.

• Well if you arent going to respond to points I made against you, voting is a good way to actually snap your attention to the points I am trying to make. I voted KoC at one point because he was posting without really responding to a case I made against him either. It took a vote to get his attention and it seems like the same concept applied here.

Post #453 - Not directly related to pressuring, but an interesting read on how Llama makes determinations. Armlx makes the statement that FL's playstyle is in line with his general meta, and that it would be a bad lynch. Llama happily agrees and pushes elsewhere. Funny how he's more than happy to let something as minor and inconclusive as meta defend someone who has 4 votes for being extremely scummy. I'll be reposting a full summary of why FL is scummy after responding to these posts. Anyways, back on topic here...after the next post...

Post #471 - LF specifies why he isn't voting for FL - and this is a very weak argument:

• ...At this point though I do not see myself voting for FL because I think that he is town. This is not as much guided by actions of FL, but its due to where the attack on FL is coming from. ...

So he essentially refuses to vote FL based on his scummy behavior, based purely on the fact that some of the people pushing the case are also on his list of suspects. Solid reasoning there, Llama. Is that still why you're defending FL?

**Having to rush through the rest of this, wife is giving me the "we need to talk about our future" line, and she's being a redhead about it. Will post further responses later when I have more time**

Post #677 - LF votes Manito - reason? To elicit a response.

• My case when I placed in still looks strong even with what he has been doing. My 576 still hasnt even been answered, and Manito has again disappeared since he isnt being challenged. Lets see if some votes cause him to reappear

**OK, have to stop here, will pick up from here when I have more time to post, life > this.**

Hopefully this will start to give some of you some insight as to my vote change.

In my reread, my reasoning for voting FL have only been strengthened, and I'll post a full case. I'm still willing to go back to FL, so don't worry about that Spyrex, but LF's behavior has been a growing concern, and frankly it's overshadowing FL's scumminess at this point because FL isn't around any more, and LF is just getting worse and worse.

MADEMOISELLE!

FaerieLord - 3 (armlx, orangepenguin, SpryeX)
Manito - 2 (LlamaFluff, StrangerCoug)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)
LlamaFluff - 1 (Manito)

Not voting - Joubert, killa seven, FaerieLord

10/6

-Mod

[Manito]

Alright, where was I.

1.) LF pressures people that dont agree with him - I see it to a degree, but you say EVERY time: please give all the examples.
4.) You say Llama vehemently defends FL and K7. Again, you used one of those magic words that requires examples.

Just to clarify - LF doesn't just pressure when people don't agree with him. He puts pressure on people period - if they aren't voting, if they aren't voting with him, if they are voting against him. He doesn't seem to have the sense that someone just might disagree with him, and that he needs to leave it at that. This has been my point time and again when I have brought this subject up - Llama will ignore an individuals explained reasoning for doing what they do, and hammer them until (1) they react and lash out at Llama (2) break down and follow Llama's lead.

Case and point, I've been pointing my finger at FL for most of the game, and I've carefully explained it multiple times. However, if I don't post a

full, complete case

every single time

that I say "I'm staying with FL for the reasons I previously mentioned" - it's like Llama doesn't even acknowledge my previous posts on FL. He completely

ignores

them, and says "all I see you saying is you've posted reasons before, but they're weak", because he doesn't take the time to read further back. I will happily be posting a complete case on FL, yet AGAIN, with quotes referring to where the points I bring up have been demonstrated before, so Llama can put his foot in his mouth.

Now, for more of LF's pressure tactics and defense/co-oping of FL/K7:

Post #715 - LF defends K7, saying that K7 is getting the "lurker vote" - which while K7 was lurking at this time, he was primarily lurking because he was suspect after starting/pushing the fl lynch.

Post #784 - LF and K7 working in concert, talking about who they would want to work together on to lynch. I'll admit they'd have to be pretty stupid to be discussing this in the open if they are scum partners, but let's face it, K7's behavior has been anything but intelligent. Perhaps that's what they were counting on. Also note that in Post #786, FL chimes in and agrees with LF and K7 on working towards lynching either KOC, Corin, or myself. Further evidence of the suspected LF/K7/FL trifecta?

Post #788 - Not Llama, but K7 votes me right after I was prodded (to which I responded 5 hours later. with the reasons I was absent) - interesting how K7 takes his queues from LF in 784, and then starts using the vote to try and "pressure" me into posting. K7 even refers back to LF/FL's post (unsure which, he posted "^read LL's post" in #792) as his reason for voting me.

Post #828 - Llama again defends K7, and the quotes make me laugh:

• I feel like im talking to a brick wall when I tell people to lynch mantio and corin over K7 but hey, will it hurt to try again?
  
  Look people.

  I have never played a game with K7 before

  ,

  yes I realize that he is not really being helpful as a whole

  , and he comes off as a newer/scummy player. The thing is, this read tends to be very volital in past game I have played in, these people always look scummy. SC* who replaced in seems to be another one of these unfortunate few who comes off as scum in most games, even when he is not scum.
  
  My read on manito and corin though are not on players that have the newb tell. They are both demonstrating scum tells that when you match

  them up across multiple games,

  
  
  

  (Note from me, this is my only game on mafiascum, so Llama has lied here saying he has matched my play up to other games. Llama also does not specify what "scum tells" are being demonstrated - they're just the phantom type I suppose.

  Later, in Post #842, Llama responds to my pointing out this flaw by saying he's matching up the unspecified "scum tells" to "standards of play on the site and the game as a whole" - so he's basically basing his opinion of our play on the meta of every other player of this game. This isn't raising any red flags for anyone?

  )

  
  
  they end up flipping scum instead of town. This is an observation, but go back in your games and compare the likelyhood of the annoying, lurker being scum to the chance of the fence sitter, the flipflopper, the follower. These players are much, much more likely to be scum. Period.
  
  When you compare tells, we are chasing ghosts here. There are much better options then K7. Most people seem to like ignoring them though, which makes me think that either 1) I am right, or 2) People think im wrong. If its 2, freaking tell me people! I want to know why you dont think im right so I can actually work on proving to you that I am right!

Clearly LF is trying desperately to deflect from K7 onto other people, even though he admits that K7's play is scummy, but he says that it's just newb town coming off as scummy. Now, take note that K7 has been a member of mafiascum since January of 2008, a full 4 months longer than Llama, and K7

also has more posts than Llama

(1103 vs 1128). K7 is not inexperienced, obviously. So this really shoots the whole "newb town being scummy" theory full of holes. (For reference, myself, a single game player since June, has 127 posts)

Post #839 - LF again defends K7, saying the following:

• To me meta is something you can use to back up a case or a defense of a player, but not something to soley convict them upon. For example Corin playing differently is something againt him, but it shouldnt be enough to lynch him on by himself. Same with K7, his behavior isnt ideal, while meta is a point to his favor, it doesnt absolve him 100% from being scum.
  
  That said again though, lets lynch Corin or manito, cmon people.

Essentially saying that he thinks K7's behavior is scummy, and his meta is also scummy, that it absolves him to some degree (which is utter BS in my opinion). So LF has again defended K7, this time based primarily off K7's meta. (do you really want all the examples of this Spyrex?)

Post #847 - LF continues to be pushy about Corin, funny quote:

• less talking about Corin and more voting Corin would be a very good thing to do here

Almost like he's discouraging people from discussing the case against Corin, and pushing people to just vote arbitrarily. This flows into his attempts to defend K7 by pushing people to vote elsewhere (who was at L-2 at this point, by the way).

Post #876 is further deflection from discussion of other things besides lynching Corin, based on a very brief PBPA LF posted the day before. Funny how Llama jumps around, pushing people with votes who aren't there to defend themselves against LF's arguments, but once they come back and defend themselves, he switches to someone else less active.

Post #887 - Llama replies to Corin's statement about pressure voting, which gives huge insight into Llama's general thoughts on what I call "bully tactics." Llama is more than willing to vote you if he feels that his case (whether it is that well done or not) is being ignored by either you or by other players. Here's the pertinent quote:

The point is, my vote of you falls under your third line, I see you as scum and

by avoiding my case, people seem to be disregarding your case and going to one I dont favor in comparison. So I am putting a pressure vote on you to get some answers and to get other people to pay attention as well.

As you can see, this particular quote illustrates exactly what I have been saying all along - Llama will pressure if he feels people aren't listening/following his direction (following one that Llama doesn't "favor"). LF's case against Corin at this point is based largely on a meta read of Corin's only other game on this site (another contradiction to LF saying K7 is "noob town being scummy" (when K7 is clearly experienced) and that Corin and I were not - see my red text above).

Post #901 - FL supports LF's wagon on Corin (which as you can see above, was very poorly supported if anyone had really bothered to look deeper into the facts - I wish now that I'd had more time to do what I'm doing now, can really see the flaws).

Post #912 - LF makes this statement, which also made me laugh:

I will state this one more time because some people dont seem to be getting it.

Meta is not my primary reason for voting Corin.

If I had never seen him in a game before, I still would be voting for him.

While it is used as

an addition

to my case, it is not the primary reason I think he should be lynched. If anyone thinks I want him lynched on meta alone, they are way off.

You will note that LF makes no attempt to actually state what his primary reason for voting Corin is in this statement. Corin himself even states this in Post #913, stating that LF's only apparent reason for voting Corin is to pressure him into responding (which is very humorous because of the fact that Corin is tied on votes with K7 at this point, 4 vs 4, based off lurker/meta evidence primarily). Armlx also backs this up in Post #916, stating that after a reread, there's really no damning evidence against Corin outside of decreased post frequency based on the meta of his one and only other game.

Post #960 - LF makes the statement that "Corin hasn't defended himself against [Llama] at all" - which is patent BS; Corin directly called out for Llama to post the evidence (which didn't exist) and Llama just ignored it (see Post #913) LF seems to get frustrated because Corin said LF's case had no substance (and it didn't, as noted by both Armlx and Spyrex). LF's response to one of his ideas being shot down with logic is to ignore the logic, and just keep on plugging away at refuted case points. (For LF's super-dooper PBPA of Corin, see Post #855 - it consists of a brief recap of Corin's posts and 10 lines total of actual input/factfinding attempts, which are really more just speculation and guesswork at what Corin may or may not have been thinking on D1/1.5. Basically, the case is crap.)

Post #976 - LF again makes the statement that Corin is scummier than K7, and the tie-breaker for this decision - Corin's meta from one other game. Ironic, isn't it, that this post completely contradicts #912's "meta is not my primary reason for voting Corin"?

Post #1025 and #1040- Interesting post from Corin - pointing out that LF is "guessing" at KoC's probable list, which very much looks like an attempt to control/skew the List environment, by placing Corin on there, even though there's no solid evidence (there's actually evidence that KoC was pro-Corinth) supporting this hypothetical list.

From #1040:

I have a valid point. Llama is putting words in KoC's mouth while he is V/LA.

Post #1045 - LF again defends K7 because K7 "is not shamelessly waggoning the highest vote getter" - so where does that put me, by his logic? I don't jump on high vote count wagons either, unless there's some clear evidence to convince me, so why isn't Llama defending me based on that?

Post #1048 - LF continues to push the Corin lynch over a K7 lynch as deadline approaches, even though the Corin case is pretty much unfounded meta/lurker in basis.

Post #1059 - LF continues to push Corin lynch over K7. Immediately after this, both SC and OP change their votes from K7 to Corin, putting the vote count back at a 1 vote difference betwen K7/Corin.

Post #1071 - Corin makes a second request that his "scummy behavior" and LF's case "being strong" to be backed up by actual specific examples and evidence. His request is ignored.

Post #1080 - K7 takes a pot-shot at Corinthian, saying "how is coronithion more help full then me?" - which makes no sense, very scummy move, completely ignored by all.

Post #1084 - LF FoS's anyone not currently on one of the major wagons, in an attempt to pressure them to switch their votes. I call him out on it in the following post.

Posts #1087 and #1088 - Armlx switches his vote to K7 (tying the votes up 5 vs 5). FL, the person who "doesn't vote often" immediately switches his vote to Corin with ZERO supporting statements, breaking the tie, and putting Corin one vote up on Thursday, 2 days before deadline. Interestingly enough, this ends up being the deciding vote at deadline, go figure.

Post #1106 - Joubert shows his face and brings up another pertinent point - in his reread, he is unable to find any major flaws/scumtells in Corin's posting, and he ALSO asks for evidence supporting the case besides "doubtful behavior".

Now moving into D2.0...
Post #1132 - SC makes a pertinent point that I covered earlier in this post, showing evidence that LF discouraged discussion of Corin's case, and encouraged just voting for him arbitrarily - further evidence that LF's pushy behavior had a significant effect on D1.5, going from L-2 on K7 to a flip-flop (thanks to FL's vote) to have Corin lynched instead, without any hard evidence.

Post #1137 - LF immediately goes on the offensive on KoC (who at this point, has now voted K7 again). Makes the statement that the Corin wagon was hard to push because of the K7 wagon (no kidding? Hard to push a wagon with no evidence).

Post #1146 - KoC goes off on LF for failing to explain his "shut up and vote Corin already" tactics from D1.5. LF tries to brush this away in Post #1148, saying that it was a "put your money where your mouth is" effort, which is total baloney. People were starting to discuss a lynch, and all Llama wanted to do was stop the discussion and actual fact finding, and push the lynch forward.

Posts #1149 and #1154 - SC calls out LF for manipulating players and pushing/pressuring people in an attempt to move votes around.

You're free to state your opinions about somebody and there's nothing wrong with agreeing with them, but as rude as this sounds, people can decide who's scummy without your help, thank you very much.

Post #1167 - Armlx paraphrases the exact same trifecta I've come to a conclusion on recently - K7/FL/LF, because of the way K7 was defended by LF and FL during D1.

Post #1213 - I call out LF for finding me scummy because I refuse to jump on wagons (which is ironically, his very same reasoning for viewing K7 as town).

Post #1238 - LF starts getting antsy because people are ignoring his "posts against KoC and Manito".

Post #1256 - LF defends K7/FL again, by saying that the CF/Spyrex vote collaboration deal to vote on K7/FL on the second half of the day is "a bad idea". Doesn't really say why it is a bad idea, especially considering both CF and Spyrex viewed FL/K7 as very scummy - LF just seems to think lynching FL/K7 is a bad idea in general. Funny how that works, huh?

Post #1266 - LF again requests a KoC lynch, based of a very underhanded move by KoC jumping on the FS wagon - but what few people noticed is that KoC jumped on under the condition that FL was the lynch target for 1.5. Makes sense that LF would push harder for KoC, considering KoC has stated his wish to vote FL next.

Post #1272 - LF states again that he wants KoC lynched, followed by FS (

which is REALLY funny considering his reason for pushing the KoC lynch is because KoC just VOTED for FS. Anyone see the contradiction in that? LF is calling KoC scummy for jumping on the "easy wagon" by voting FS, and then LF is suddenly more than willing to vote FS too?

)

Post #1274 - LF now shows that SC has moved up onto his scum list in place of Corin, which seems pretty OMGUS considering SC was the one to call out LF's behavior back in Post #1149/50. This appears to be a common tactic for LF, putting people who oppose him or who point out his scummy behavior on his LoS, so he can refer to that LoS later and not appear OMGUSsy.

**OK, I have to stop. I've been at this for 3 hours now, and I have other things (like food) that need attention. I will pick up where I left off on this as soon as possible**

Hopefully this is exhaustive enough, to this point, for you Spyrex? If the pattern isn't clear at this point, I'm more than happy to continue my research.

[Manito]

EBWOP:

Sorry about the insanely long post, hopefully I broke it up enough that it's easily read.

Given the information I've discovered so far, I believe the following is in order too:

Confirm Vote: LlamaFluff

[Manito]

Some of what I addressed wasn't addressed in full, or with the full scope of all your actions included in the analysis, in previous posts.

A lot of the earlier posts weren't read as carefully as they should have been. I was busy around that time, as I had stated then, so my full attention to detail wasn't really there. Perhaps if it had been, I would have caught the errors made during D1.5 before Corin was lynched...

[Manito]

Well when people havent been able to successfully explain reasoning behind certain moves I will pressure them. When people arent taking a stand on an issue and just hanging in the shadows, I will pressure them. If people are me I will pressure them for the reasoning. This game is one where you actually need to convince people of what you think, if someone sees a player or event differently, its not in the best intrest of the town to say "oh well" and start over. If you think I am too aggressive, fine. If you think thats a scum tell, you aint seen nothing yet.

Successfully explain by whose standards? Yours? When are you going to realize that your criteria for what is a successful explaination has no bearing on the validity of it? Just because someone's argument doesn't succeed in convincing you doesn't automatically make them wrong, and it certainly doesn't entitle you to put immense pressure on them by calling them scummy and encouraging people to vote for them (like you did with Corin, with NO evidence, as I clearly demonstrated above). You managed to push the Corin lynch right past at least 3 different requests from 3 different players asking for your case, considering the only "case" you posted was pure speculation and summarization, and those same people who asked you to post more evidence didn't what you pointed out scummy.

You are clinging to the FL case, you always have been. You arent playing it like town though. You constantly use the FL wagon to avoid taking stances on everyone else, and there have really been no strong pushes or changes in what it is. Your entire case is three points it seems, and most of those points are very weak. Post the ENTIRE case, convince me that FL is scum. Dont just say "previous reasons", if I think you are wrong, I am not about to do reasearch in an attempt to prove you right. That is your job.

I realize you find the case weak, that's your opinion. You're entitled to have it, even if it's wrong. Your entire stated reasoning for defending FL was because of the fact that of the many individuals pushing the case, 3 of them were on your scum list at the time - you're calling FL innocent because you think the people pushing are scummy? Despite demonstrated scummy behavior from FL, completely separate from outside pressure (did you just completely MISS the fact that he said he would have hammered forbiddanlight if Gimbo/YOU hadn't hammered, even though FL though forbiddanlight was town???). Just for the gratification of you, and everyone else here, I will be posting a full case on FL, much like the one I did on you.

The times I have said "previous reasons" isn't to force you to do research, it's so I don't have to (as I said in my last post) repost the case every single time I vote for him. Your hypocrisy about this is really astonishing, considering how you pushed Corin and just kept "referring back" to the case that multiple people said wasn't evidence of scummy behavior. Right this instant, however, people need time to absorb my current case.

You are giving reasoning for something that you should not know reasoning for. I have another game with K7 and he lurks, its how he plays. Dont like it? Doesnt mean he is auto-scum for it.

How was I giving reasoning for something I shouldn't know reasoning for? Go back and read for yourself, there are multiple points where people said K7 was very suspect on D1.5 for starting/pushing the fl lynch. Sure seems like perfectly legitimate reasoning to me...

I really dont know how to respond to this point apart from laughter, but alas I will try since if I dont im sure you will call it a scum tell too. Since when is saying "Lets lynch one of these players not this player" scum communicating? You already say that I keep "forcing" people to do my bidding in this game, this is probally more fitting of an example of that. Also are you actually suggesting "K7 doesnt seem smart, he must be scum" from that exchange?

Saying "let's lynch one of these players not this player" isn't always scum communicating. But, when two very scummy players (FL and K7) are advocated by a third player on a very weak basis, and then both of those scummy players start happily agreeing with everything that third player says to do, it certainly looks like scum communicating. I suppose you could call it "forcing", though both of them fell into line with minimal/non-existent pressure. I certainly didn't see you voting either of them... Given K7's statements and behavior throughout this game, I'd say he's definitely not particularly careful about how he words things. My statement was merely meant to point out that "if" you three are working on concert, which evidence suggests, K7 is being pretty moronically open about it. I'm not saying his lack of intelligent posting is a scumtell - just this particular way he's more than happy to chime in with you and FL seems all too convenient.

K7 using evidence I laid out makes me scum now? This seems like it should be in a K7 case, not Llama case.

It is partially to show K7's behavior, but the problem is, he is basing his behavior on your say so, and he even goes so far to refer back to your post as his reason for voting (though there's no discernible evidence in that post).

Tells are tells, the things I saw Corin doing, saw KoC doing, and am seeing you doing, I have seen scum do before, multiple times. Cases I make are based off these tells. I dont see how saying "manitos actions are scum tells" is at all wrong. It is just a simpler way of saying "what manito is doing I have seen scum do multiple times before in games X Y and Z so I belive that he is scum given that reason and other actions occuring in this game".

You say tells are tells - what are these tells? You still haven't ever pointed them out, you continue to say what XX is doing I have seen scum do multiple times before, but you don't even say what that behavior is. You're just saying that we're doing scummy stuff without any specific points, that's like me saying "I think Llama is scummy because I saw someone else do something scummy in all these other games and he's doing something like that" - what is "something", specifically????? You still haven't answered that You never did when multiple people requested it during the Corin votes, and you are dodging it now.

Tell me this - Why is it scummy to deflect from K7? It sounds like you are pretty assured that he is scum, and are using that to base a case on me. Anywho, go look at any game K7 has played. He does the exact same thing, its more of apathetic and intentionally unhelpful town then newb town. I also dont get the point of this part again. I called K7 newb town, you think he isnt, I am scum?

Why is it scummy to deflect from K7? It wouldn't be, if your reason for deflecting actually was

truthful and factual

. Your reason for deflecting from K7 is that you thought his play was coming off as a newer/scummy player, even though he's been here much longer than you, and has more posts/games on this site than you - so he's clearly not a newer/scummy player. Then you ALSO go on to call myself and Corin non-newb scummy, even though this is clearly my first game here, and Corin is also very new too. So why can't you explain the contradiction there? K7, a player for the last 9 months, is a "newer/scummy" and two other players who joined the site 11 days before this game started are essentially being called experienced players who are demonstrating "scum tells" that you still have yet to specify on.

Heh. Go read mini 628. I was scum, and won an endgame where it was me, a mason and K7 as cop. K7 being K7 helped me there and got him lynched. I have looked in other games and he is always the same. What I said though I hold true to, meta is something small to add or take from a player being scummy. I dont get this point again though, how is defending K7 make me scum?

As has already been established by your faulty logic with Corin's lynch, meta is worthless. I won't waste one iota of time reading mini 628. I've stated my disbelief in meta before. My entire point is that you make the statement that K7 is being scummy, and that his meta is a point for him but that it doesn't absolve him 100%, yet you still are vehemently defending him as if his meta DOES absolve him 100%.

Explained, in detail, early D2. If you really were reading everything I said instead of hunting for the stuff that you can take out of context, you would of found it.

Proof please. I didn't "hunt for stuff to take out of context" - I just read every one of your posts from D1 to wherever I stopped yesterday, and displayed my interpretation of the facts. Making the statement like that is a poor defensive maneuver attempting to make me look like my post is some sort of contextual witch hunt - if it was explained in such detail, please quote it, with post #, rather than "making me do the research to prove you right" - sound familiar?

If you are accusing me of lurker hunting here you need to take a look back at your LoS of FL/lurker/lurker from D1. I am not quite sure though if you are looking at the same 876 I am. What I did in that one was try and get reactions to my PBPA as people didnt react as was intended, I didnt change my vote or anything like your interpretation seems to imply.

You're calling my LoS a lurker hunt? Did I ever vote them because of it? Oh, no, that's right, I refused to. I merely made the statement that K7 and Joubert were #2 and #3 on my list of scummy individuals because of their lurking - only because no one else's behavior at the time was much scummier. I wasn't about to vote Joubert or K7 just based on the fact that they were lurking massively. You kept accusing me for not voting my #2 - I hate to break it to you, but the whole "list" thing was a terrible idea - LoS =/= preferred lynch order. LoS just means "current list of people whose behavior I find suspicious" - some of the people on that list might be scummy enough for me to put a vote on (like FL), but most certainly not all of them without good reason.

You, on the other hand, seem happy to vote anyone lurking, until they respond and make your push on them look silly, and then you switch to someone else lurking. This behavior with Corin resulted in a bunch of people following suit without really knowing why (a couple even said the evidence/scummy behavior was really not damning) and a mislynch. Pure and simple, you shouldn't be voting as a pressure tactic if you don't really believe that person to be scum - it can and has had disastrous results.

There is nothing, I repete, NOTHING wrong with voting someone if they ignore a case presented against them. If you made a case, it got ignored so you started looking somewhere else, it would be a big point against you right there. If you also paid attention to my Corin case posts, I was not voting for him purely on meta. Was it a point that encoruraged me to vote him? Yes. Was it my main point? No.

Obviously there is something wrong with voting someone if they "ignore" a case presented against them, because you did just that to Corin, and despite people doubting the strength of your "case" and asking for further proof, you managed to get Corin lynched based on very little/no facts from this game whatsoever - a lynch based on a single meta game read and his lurking - really strong evidence there...

You say that isn't your main point? What was exactly, I'd love to hear it (as would Corin, KoC, Armlx, and Spyrex, who all questioned the strength of the case, and both Corin and KoC directly asked for a restatement/presentation of your facts - something you never did)?

Look you cant pad your case against me with what FL and K7 did. Also is this seems to be laiden with AtE in the form of "I dear, I wish I had been around back then to prevent that from happening".

Pad my case? I'm establishing your connection to two other scummy individuals, since they both take their queues on who to vote and who to listen to from you, their ardent defender. That isn't padding anything. As far as the whole "I wish" stuff, you can call it AtE if you like - I was away from the game pretty considerably, and wasn't reading particularly deep on posts, and given how easily I found these flaws surrounding Corin's lynch, I feel pretty damn stupid that I didn't catch it then and say something. Is there something wrong with that? I'm not looking for sympathy, just feeling pretty silly for not catching it earlier.

Remember when I said that you were hypocritical? Yeah I am saying it again. What I have said in that post is at least as much as you normally throw out there when you decide to talk about FL instead of criticize the main wagons. Also what does Armlx not agreeing with what I had to say about Corin have to do with my alignment? You are drawing a lot of conclusions that say I am scum from what you think other players are.

Yeah, attack me rather than defending yourself by actually referencing and pointing out your post where you stated what your actual primary reason for voting Corin was. I am not hypocritical, because I can actually give you a post where I state exactly what my primary reasons are for voting Corin, and they are backed up by factual quotes rather than hypothesis about ambiguous statements (like your original "case" on Corin was). This post is the most clear, concise, compact statement of my case, which for the most part refers to my PBPA here. If that isn't clear enough for you, I do plan, as I have stated earlier, to post a full case on FL, much like I have done on you.

Unless I am missing it, Corin never did respond to 855 which I refrenced when he asked for a case in 913. There was also what I posted when I joined the game, as well as a few more posts scattered throughout the day. A lot of this is being viewed now with hindsight that automatically makes you have the upper hand since all my reasoning can be taken down a few pegs for being "wrong". Again you are pulling other players into the picture though saying "well they didnt like your case" which again I dont see how it makes me scum and makes you look like its an attempt to suck up to them.

Corin asked for more of a case than your 392 and 855, because both of them are extremely weak representations of a case. Your case, and you are free to correct me with quotes from your posts if I'm wrong, but what I have read boils down to "Corin is lurking, and he didn't lurk in the only other game he's played on this site (which was a power role in a fast paced game), so he is scummy because of that (meta). Corin sets up and pushes FL (see 392 and 855, most of your "case" is that he's trying to lynch FL, or is FoS'ing FL, or that he was not responding to your 392)". Outside of that, your case has nothing solid, and Corin voting FL is far from rock solid evidence, even combined with a weak basis on a meta sample of O N E. Yet you still voted, and pushed immensely hard.

Corin didn't need to respond to 855, or 392, and he stated such - and asked you for stronger reasoning, which you never provided (you ignored this request completely when responding to his statement, saying that he was "going after everyone that agreed with you and calling their case weak" when he did nothing of the sort (see posts 913 and 960) - he stated that Faerie's vote was OMGUS (which it was, you illustrated quite well how Corin was going after Faerie, and big shocker, Faerie is more than willing to vote him back (and ironically be the hammer vote at deadline)) and then asked FS, TSN, and SC to tell him in their own words why they thought he was scum (which isn't going after them at all, sure looks like someone asking players voting him to explain their vote reasoning with something other than your weak case).

I can get you quotes where KoC seemed fine lynching Corin (you can start with 856). The day needed to move forward so I looked at past posts of KoC and put up what he seemed to be thinking. I even signified it in my post.

Sure, start with #856, I'll finish that off with KoC's major doubts and frequent statements that K7 is the better choice. See posts #902 and 927 (especially 927:

All Corin's done is lurk a little, and react a little aggressively.
K7 has two days worth of dedicated anti-town play and twice during the forbiddan lynch implied knowledge he knew she wasn't scum.

)

You werent about to get lynched. Its self-preservation 101.

Oops? Self-preservation? You're calling your defense of K7 "self-preservation 101"? Just who are you trying to preserve...yourself, or K7?

[quote="LlamaFluff"}
Hurrah for pot shots at my case. I still think Corin was acting scummy, if no one agreed with me, he wouldnt of been lynched no matter how much noise I made. Nice misrep on why I wanted him lynched too.[/quote]

As I've stated above, show me quotable, documented proof that your case on Corin was more than bad meta/lurker/votingFL (

and you state in #1204 that "voting Manito" is a large part of the case KoC made against FL - so it's ok for you to make a case on Corin for voting FL, but not ok for KoC to make a case on FL for voting me?

).

Please. Stop. Using. Other. Players. Actions. To. Justify. A. Vote. Of. Me.

I will, as soon as you stop using poor cases combined with pressure to push a mislynch, deal?

Again, you are attacking other players in what I think is inteded to be a case on me.

Because K7 is your buddy and you're still protecting him despite statements like the one he made in 1080. You're complicit in his defense.

That was discussed quite a bit already in D2. Again thanks for reading the things that make me look scum only.

It's called scumhunting for a reason, I'm not here to quote where you were a good little boy (but you can quote those, if you can find them ) Also, this quote is taken in context from the discussion up to lynch during D1.5 - at this point in my analysis, I hadn't reached further discussion that took place during D2.0.

This doesnt pretain to me, stop padding your case, etc etc

It does pertain to you, when I'm making the case that you and FL and K7 are working in concert, and FL makes the tiebreaking vote based on your "case". It has everything to do with you.

See what I have said before. Another player disagreeing with my evidence by no means makes me scum.

When that player disagrees with the validity of your case (and is correct in doing so) and you ignore it (along with everyone else), yes, it's very scummy, because it proves that I'm not alone in saying that you pushed a weak case and dodged questions about that case to intentionally push a mislynch.

This has been addressed, thanks for reading.

I was pointing out that I was not alone in noticing earlier in my analysis that you actively discouraged detailed discussion of Corin's case. You're starting to sound a lot like FL with the whole "this has been addressed" line.

Why is this a scum tell? I go after my top suspect.

No, you go after

any

of your suspects, whichever has the most support. Not only have you proved that with your actions, you've said so when arguing with me about me not voting for secondary and tertiary suspects on my LoS - to quote you - Posts 1207, 1209, 1213, followed by your wonderful 1214 quote:

The LoS was three people because this game has three scum, therefore your LoS you made said "I think the three scum are FL, Joubert, K7". Now even if K7 was not your #1 suspect, he was in your top three.

Why would you not want to get one of your top three players lynched over someone you consider town?

Also you are being willfully ignorant with the "start at the bottom of your list" thing.

Of course you are going to try and get your top player lynched, but if you cant get them lynched, and your #3 is on the blocks, you are just going to ignore them?

I follow the logic, however, that you go for your highest and most likely scum target first, especially if you have the evidence to back it up, because lynching scum will more than likely reveal other suspects. K7 and Joubert were on the list as suspects primarily because they were scummy lurkers, not because I necessarily thought they were scum for sure. It makes no sense to me whatsoever to vote for an "opportunity lynch" because one of the people lower on my suspect list happens to have a high vote count. That's an extremely stupid way to play, and it's probably why we are where we are right now because people have been happy to jump to the highest voted targets on their LoS, rather than really discuss and find the scummiest target.

Thats what it was. When discussion about someone you think is scum is occuring but votes arent, you try and get some votes out there. That was probally worded poorly but I have explained it already. If you dont want to belive it all I can do is explain it again, in smaller words.

When discussion about someone you think is scum is occurring,

it would probably be a good idea to use that as an opportunity to strengthen your case with further evidence

- not to

stop discussion and push people towards voting without really looking at the facts for themselves

.

Again stop trying to kiss up to armlx. I have extensively given reasons for not wanting FL and K7 lynched D1.

Again? Can you show me where I've kissed up to Armlx in the past? How is quoting what he posted kissing up to him? Your "extensive" reasons for not wanting FL and K7 lynched on D1.5 consists of "people I think are scummy are pushing the vote for FL/K7, so I think they are town" or "K7 is playing like scummy noob town, even though he's been here 6 months or longer and in more games than any of my primary suspects", basically. Try again, this time with some real reasoning that isn't OMGUS or faulty logic.

You are pushing a dead wagon for the first two days, it makes it look like you are being useful when you really arent. By doing this and rejecting all other wagons (with the exception of FS who sure wasnt in that trifecta of yours) you can appear town since you are essentially never responseable for any mislynches. K7 wagoning would of been self-preservation. You voting K7 D1 wouldnt of.

I guess if you want to look at it that way, you can call my behavior "looking busy". I look at it as going after the person I found most scummy. You're correct - FS wasn't part of that trifecta....that didn't exist in my mind until I made my first major post against you, which was after the FS lynch. Him being part of the trifecta before it existed would be something of a conundrum, wouldn't it. Spyrex's post was very well written and presented, and far more convincing at the time than my evidence against FL. However, since I've been working on this huge reread, FL's guilt has only been strengthened in my mind (to be shown in a later post).

Point being? I want to at least hear why people are rejecting my ideas.

The point is you're easily irritated by small things, and you react aggressively rather than furthering your cases by finding more supportive evidence and connections.

If they went through with that plan, no one has true responsability for any mislynches that occurs. The same thing I reacted to when the idea of chain lynching fl, k7, fs, koc was introduced. Voting patterns are pretty big in this game, when people make plans that abolish reasoning behind them then that is scummy and shouldnt be allowed to happen.

I'm not disagreeing with you that the agreement between CF/Spyrex was a bad idea, but if you had perhaps made this same statement when that agreement was struck, it would have been helpful. However, you also pushed/created "The List" idea, which I think was a huge mistake, because it gave scum a list of everyone they could push on and they would know who they could count on to vote favorably. "The List" was part of what has developed a terrible voting pattern this game.

You still seem to be basing other players alignments that you do NOT KNOW on how you are viewing me. Also nice misrep of why I voted KoC. Dont go putting words in my mouth. On top of my previous reasoning for wanting KoC lynched, that FS vote clinched it.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth. Your actions look like your typical OMGUS reaction for FL - anytime someone attacks FL, you attack them. This post also leads right to your contradictory actions in post 1272 and 1274.

When did I say lets chain lynch? I said we lynch KoC and go from there. That means if KoC was scum, there would of been no way that I would of voted for FS. Given that KoC was town though, it made a FS lynch much more acceptable to me. So please, stop misinterpreting my posts so much. I never said "hey guys lets lynch both of them no questions" I said "Lets lynch KoC and use that information to make a decision on FS".

I never mentioned a chain lynch. Don't know where you got that from. You do, however, in 1272, say the following:

*grumble* still would rather lynch KoC and go from there on FS *kicks can*

Here's what confuses me, you practically scream for a vote rally on KoC for voting FS, but aren't directly opposed to an FS lynch. Why? That's two contradicting ideas right there. It doesn't make sense.

I made it fairly clear that SC was on my LoS in 1137, that was before he ever voted me. Good try calling it OMGUS though and trying to make your "llama OMGUSes" claim have some merit.

You're learning! Finally, a quote from you with a valid point. I had totally missed that you had put SC on your list back that far. This makes SC's vote on you OMGUS, and not the other way around - my apologies. Now, if you can only do the same with quotes for all the other questions I've asked.

Feel free to continue. I actually am enjoying this quite a bit, staying up late at night wondering what wacky way you will misinterpret me next.

Aww, I was beginning to have hopes that you'd continue down the logical path, rather than going for the pity wagon. Well, you have plenty of work ahead of you. Don't lose too much sleep.

[Manito]

EBWOP:

Messed up a quote immediately before the red text:

Hurrah for pot shots at my case. I still think Corin was acting scummy, if no one agreed with me, he wouldnt of been lynched no matter how much noise I made. Nice misrep on why I wanted him lynched too.

NANANANA NANA NA

FaerieLord - 3 (armlx, orangepenguin, SpryeX)
Manito - 1 (LlamaFluff)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)
LlamaFluff - 1 (Manito)

Not voting - Joubert, killa seven, FaerieLord, StrangerCoug

With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

[Manito]

Only been calling K7 scum since my re-read. Always was just suspicious of him because of his lurking. Connections made between you, FL, and him have upgraded my view of him.

I point out things that K7 and FL have done

because

of your influence. That's what makes you scum.

You're grasping at straws Llama. If you can't defend yourself with some solid evidence and quoted posts supporting that evidence, you can't even begin to attack the "logical path" I've used that you find so faulty, when I've clearly supported it with actual posts, not rhetoric.

[Manito]

If both of you are so convinced of K7 being scum, why aren't either of you voting him? Since you both think the other is partners with him.

Instead of voting eachother, you could just vote the person you think is scummy's partner. That would make a lot more sense. Unless, one of you ARE indeed killa's partner, then I see why you wouldn't actually vote him. Hmm..

As you can see, LF doesn't think K7 is scum, and has been defending him the entire time. As for myself, I see LF as a much, much bigger threat than K7, because he is here and he is influencing the game. K7 can be dealt with later, but LF needs to be addressed now, in my opinion.

------------------------------

Llama, you're continuing to grasp at straws and now you're trying to misrepresent what I've said.

Simply my logic says A connects to B connects to C. I dont have what I need to prove B comfortably if A is yet to be proven. Turning on K7 right now would be the equivilant of what manito is doing with me, because K7 and FL are scum, I am scum, which is incorrect and indefenseable with both of them alive.

My logical path is not "K7/FL are scum, so Llama must be scum" - my logical path is "Llama is scum, and he's been collaborating and defending K7/FL, who are also more than likely scum". You intentionally pushed a weak case on Corin to a mislynch.

Saying that I was "defending K7 by not voting him" on D1.5 is like saying I was defending everyone I haven't voted - it's a desperate tactic to deflect from what really needs to be your focus and the focus of everyone here. You need to do one thing here, Llama.

Answer the questions set forth in my posts. Use quotes from your own posts, if you can actually find any that support your claims, to defend yourself. If you can't do this (and I have serious doubts that you can) - great, I'll back down. But if you can't, then stop trying to bluster your way out of the corner by trying to attack my argument poorly and point fingers at other things. You're doing the very thing that you got Corin lynched for - you're ignoring a very big case against you, and you aren't answering the questions right in front of you.

[Manito]

What this all sounds like is Llama is scummy to Manito because (surprise) K7 and FL are.

I say lynch them first.

Is everyone ignoring the fact that Llama's case against Corin was unfounded, pushed immensely hard, questioned multiple times, and it was still pushed through?

That in itself has nothing to do with K7 and FL being scummy. Everything else surrounding K7 and FL sure supports it though.

@SC - What kind of point are you trying to make, exactly? Did you actually read my posts? I've given well supported evidence, evidence that eliminates 99.9999% of my doubt. I'm sorry that I didn't use words like "probably" or "most likely" - usually when you're as sure as I am, you don't. I'll reference you to another recent case, where another player said "so and so is scum" without "probably", "most likely", and "I think" - Spyrex's case (1657) against Firestarter states, at the end

Firestarter is scum. SC is a scum partner.

No probably, no most likely, no I thinks about FS and

you

, yet you said nothing about it?

To which you responded in 1663:

I am at a loss of words, SpyreX. I simply cannot believe the amount of damning evidence against Firestarter in your #1657.

I know what I am, but seeing as I'm sold about him, I'm left with one and only one option.

Unvote: SpyreX
Vote: Firestarter

[Manito]

Yeah, I chalked it up to you missing things Point was, though, Spyrex made the same sort of statement I've been making, because he was as sure then as I am now, based on the evidence. So I guess I'm a little confused as to why you're making a fuss about it? Just seems a little odd.

[Manito]

That in itself has nothing to do with K7 and FL being scummy. Everything else surrounding K7 and FL sure supports it though.

This again is my point. You cant support a case with assumptions of alignments. The problem for you though is when you take away actions of FL and K7 your case against me shrinks quite a bit, so you keep attempting to justify the need to have them in the case.

Why did you only quote the last half of my post? Why didn't you include the part that completes that quote, the part that you quoted refers directly to the first statement, which you still aren't answering my direct requests for an explanation on:

Is everyone ignoring the fact that Llama's case against Corin was unfounded, pushed immensely hard, questioned multiple times, and it was still pushed through?

That in itself has nothing to do with K7 and FL being scummy. Everything else surrounding K7 and FL sure supports it though.

My case against you doesn't shrink when you take away K7 and FL's actions - the very strong evidence, supported by pretty much all of your D1.5 posting, of Corin's unsupported case that you pushed so hard. Perhaps it isn't as massive, but the case concerning your actions with Corin stands on its own just fine. The K7/FL connections just show an interesting history of collaboration that looks very much like scum partners.[/quote]

[Manito]

sorry for the inactivity..

Try posting something of worth then? Stop lurking.

More OP lynch?

Reason for this? Evidence? Case? If you aren't going to contribute, get replaced.

[Manito]

Hey, Manito and LlamaFluff are the big standouts and I

intend to have one of them lynched

, OK?

Bad/scummy phrasing, or is it just me?

It's not just you, that was really bad...

[Manito]

So does your vote for SC mean you do not find LF scummy based on the evidence I provided Spyrex?

Your poem makes it sound like LF and I are innocent in this battle, which I disagree with. I'm not particularly apt right this moment to vote SC, despite that being an extremely underhanded statement he made.

Do we have any evidence besides that to support voting SC?

[Manito]

Spyrex is right, TSPN...

Also, I had asked you back right after last night phase to present/re-present your case on SC...

Can we see that case now please? If the evidence supports it, coupled with this last act, I suppose I would be willing to go after Llama during 3.5 instead of 3.0.... Depends on the strength of the case.

@Spyrex, is there something about my case that doesn't make sense? I thought the facts/quotes I put forth made it pretty cut and dry...

[Manito]

I'll admit the wishy-washy voting is pretty scummy...I'll reread the points you mentioned and think about it.

[Manito]

Just a heads up, since I haven't posted in a couple days. Just got the chance for a promotion, but it involves a move, so I've been a bit busy running around, talking to various places finding a place in town to move to. Will try and keep active but might be a little more quiet, with packing/planning/etc.

[Manito]

I didn't need a prod. As previously stated, I've been busy and will be while working on moving.

[Manito]

Wow, SC.

Angry much?

[Manito]

Alright, SC, you're going overboard with all your comments, and I can't ignore it.

Your "Sorry, but if I can help it, you're dying before I do" totally sounds like scum trying to get one more kill before he's offed.

I'll focus on Llama on 3.5, but your behavior of late is just too much to ignore.

Unvote: LlamaFluff
Vote: StrangerCoug

[Manito]

1 - The Day 1.5 wagon in relation to K7

Now, the final vote count for day 1.5 left Corin at a deadline lynch over k7 by one vote. During this scramble between the two players where votes got shuffled around quite a bit, manito kept his vote on FL. During the list activity I put out during D1.5 though we find that manitos LoS was FL, Joubert, K7. This is where things get weird. During the last part of that day, manito was presented with two options, vote for his third suspect on his LoS and stop someone who he sure appeared to have a town read (and now is arguing for his life that he did) to get lynched. Or he could of kept his vote on FL and let someone that he had a town read on get killed without making any strong attempts to prevent this from happening. Manito played the end of the day to the extent where he allowed a perceived town player get lynched and let a player he had, and since has vehemently, called scum. This is not a town action.

As I have already addressed this "point" of yours multiple times, I guess I need to again, since you seem to ignore everything I say. As stated previously, Joubert and K7 were only on my list because they were lurkers, and I specifically stated this when I posted my "list". Of course I didn't vote K7 - he was lurker suspicious, not a vote option for me based on the evidence. When are you going to hear me saying this, over and over, and actually get it through your head?

You accuse me of not making any strong attempts to prevent the mislynch (hindsight is great, isn't it), yet you still have failed, time and again, to reply to my posts asking you why you pushed Corin so hard with no evidence. You'll also notice that people besides myself (see my earlier posts on page 71) asked you for more evidence at the time (yet it didn't stop the push) and you failed to provide it.

Stop dodging my questions by accusing me more, and provide some answers.

1.1 – Use of Day 1.5 wagon in cases

Since the lynch of Corin, at most possible opportunities, we have seen manito throw out the fact that people voted for Corin over K7 as a scumtell. This means that manito thinks that K7 is scum, how else could this be considered a scumtell? This relates back to the D1.5 lynch. He is now getting on people for protecting the player he JUST had the opportunity to get lynched. This is just further evidence that there was an intentional avoidance of the entire D1.5 lynching scene by manito.

Weak point. Doesn't even summarize what my reasoning was. Go back and re-read the post. You pushed the vote on Corin, with no evidence but weak meta comparison and lurker, dodged all request for more evidence (and you still are, even now). My reasoning back then has nothing to do with my reasoning now, and you're trying to connect the two rather poorly. On D1.5, K7 was a terse lurker who was otherwise unsuspicious. On D3.0, combined with the evidence from the voting patterns and your behavior, has brought me to the conclusion that his actions on D1.5 were in collusion with you.

1.2 – Stance on k7

There has been some flip-flops on k7 being scum or not as well. In manitos 47 there are beyond obvious implications that he has a read of scum on k7. How else does he have “defended k7” as a scumtell? When I challenged him on these points, he quickly dropped k7 to town though, due to the point that he had been not posting in his 51. When we return to his 56 though, and the small debate of “why didn’t you vote K7 D1.5?” had blown over, he goes back to putting K7 back on his LoS. This is attributed to lurking, which is the same reason that he had K7 drop off his list in 51.

If you're going to quote a post of mine, don't say Manito's 47, etc. - I don't know what that refers to. My 47th post on this thread, my 47th post on this site in my profile, what? If you're going to quote, quote specific post number, or even better, provide a link - makes it much easier to track down what you're referring to, especially when its from 1800+ posts ago. 47 sounds like it was right after D1.0, at which point K7 was still (1) posting (2) very scummy after his push on fl from the day before.

You defending K7 IS a scumtell, because of your reasoning behind it.

As I have previously quoted, your stated reason for defending K7 was this - (1) the people attacking K7 were on your "scum" list at the time (2) K7's meta.

As we've already shown with your terrible push on Corin via meta, using meta as a reason to lynch or for innocence is patently stupid. So, since you still haven't answered this question from my previous large posts -

why are you defending K7 still, outside of the weak reasoning I just stated above?

2 – Avoidance of Wagons

Manito has done a good job so far at calling nearly every mislynch as it happens. D1.5, he called Corin perfectly. D2.0 he called KoC with relative ease. Most other people were “fooled” by at least one of these wagons. Not manito though, he just clung to his “FL is scum, not voting anyone else” statements. The two instances where he did break from this pattern and vote on a lynching wagon were fl and FS, which both have been used to his advantage. fls lynch quickly got turned against FL and has been used quite a bit to try and get that wagon to the lynching stage. If you look at the timing of votes and posts though there is an interesting pattern that occurred. Four posts after manito moved to a fl vote from an (interestingly enough) FoS on k7, he already set in on FL, this was still being done on day 1.0. In his 13, there is also a distinct move to get FL to vote for fl.

Beautiful way to twist the facts. Too bad it doesn't hold up if you read my posts. I have refused to vote and jump on wagons because of

lack of evidence presented

. You take this information, and say that I'm intentionally avoiding voting on major wagons.

Maybe if you answered my questions about the Corin lynch and the lack of evidence, you'd have the real reason I didn't vote Corin or K7. Your case didn't hold up and wasn't well supported at ALL.

2.1 – Constant push of FL

Since quite argueablely his 11th post in the game, manito has expressed intrest in a lynch of FL. We all know he wants a lynch but at the same time he has not taken many great steps to assure that the lynch would take place. There are mentions of the case and some small debates which mainly are concentrated in early D1.5, but dried up since then. For all of D2.0 the most that manito does is add the Corin vote to why he wants FL lynched. Time wise he appears to spend more time defending KoC then attacking FL. We saw more of the same in 2.5, defending himself this time though. Its fairly clear that manito doesn’t seem to have a lynch of FL a high priority in this game. He mentions the name quite a bit but around this point in the game I have to hunt for any concrete reasoning for the lynch, you would think that something that has been pushed for the past five lynches would of first been easily identified and second actually pushed to completion at this point. Neither have occurred. I think this is just scum camping on a wagon so he doesn’t have to do any scumhunting, just point to FL and say “theres the scum”.

You didn't see FL's vote of Corin on 1.5 as scummy at all? Please, I'd love to hear your reasoning on that. I have FL lynch as a very high priority in this game - why are you sitting here contradicting your own statements???

One second, you're accusing me of not jumping wagons because I'm too focused on FL, and the next second you're accusing me of not pushing FL hard enough - WHICH IS IT?

I hate to break it to you, but you can't argue it both ways. I would have loved to have lynched FL back on D1.5 - but you made sure that didn't happen, didn't you (even though FL made it to L-2). Amazing how FL just stopped posting any relative content during 1.5, while you pushed incredibly hard for the Corin lynch (which amazingly enough, FL jumped on last minute). Now, I'll ask you AGAIN since it seems to be very difficult for you to respond to these questions -

why are you still defending FL based on the same reasons stated above - the fact that people on your "scum list" at the time were attacking FL - at this point in time? Saying someone is town because someone you think is scum is attacking them is VERY poor reasoning - either back up your claim, or stop hiding behind it.

3.1 – The Llama is Bossy Case

A major part of why I seem to be suspected by manito right now is that he says that I am too bossy for him. I am being accused of voting people to make them listen to me, and forcing everyone to vote with me. This is not only an over exaggeration, since I believe the only players I have voted for are Corin, KoC, FS, manito, but also blatantly false. I do try and get my ideas out there, it helps to see the reactions of a large group of people. I do try and make people act, so it can be reviewed later. I don’t run around and try and get everyone who doesn’t listen to me scum. This “scumtell” of his is the equivalent of the “over defensive” tell. They both are very weak at best, and are commonly used to pad cases that need extra evidence to make them look desirable to other players.

As seen in my previous post - this isn't an exaggeration. I have quoted, multiple times, where you have stated that you're voting someone until they "respond to post #XXX". As a matter of fact, you did that exact thing to Corin on D1.5 - and ended up getting him lynched with your pushiness.

3.2 – Guilt by Association Case

Manito always seems to have a hard time pushing my case without mentioning that k7 and FL (netlava) are scum. By doing this he is using an assumption of other players alignments to get my lynched. In the chain of posts where manito presents a case, there were 39 posts refrenced that he called me scum for. Out of those 39 posts, manito uses “k7 and FL are scum” based arguments in 18. Nearly half of everything that was presented against me are conditional of k7 and FL being scum. The fact that manito is trying to push the end of a chain (me) on the beginning of a chain (k7 and FL) is scummy. There is a natural order of proof and progression in this game, and manito is trying to throw it aside while at the same time using it for evidence.

Again, an attempt to twist the facts to look one way, when I presented them in another. My basis for calling you scum is fundamentally based on your own actions, especially your actions on D1.5 with the Corin pressure.

In retrospect, my research showed a pattern of K7 and FL coming up on people's radar and getting very high on the vote count, only to be defended directly by you (many of my quoted posts show you saying "let's lynch XXX instead of FL/K7") or defended from lynch indirectly by your heavy pushing on another wagon (see D1.5 vote counts, FL and K7 both were at 4-5+ votes, and for a while Corin was at zero - deadline was set and *poof* votes magically start appearing on Corin and disappearing from FL/K7).

The crux of my case is not your association with K7/FL - so stop trying to twist it that way. Your association with them, in combination with your already demonstrable scummy behavior separate from them, supports the case - it doesn't define it.

And I'm sure I'm getting repetitive here, but I'll make sure to ask it one more time, just to make sure it's getting through to you.

Answer my questions about your refusal to provide more evidence on Corin, and why you pushed it so hard without anything to back it up, on D1.5. Stop dodging and pointing elsewhere - I have been taking the time to respond and defend directly against your posts on me - please do the same and quit being hypocritical. Hopefully the big red text will capture your attention long enough to finally elicit the required response.

[Manito]

Making it big and red does not make it a valid point.

First of the posts that I reference are the post number of yours in the thread. I personally don’t like hypers though (probally because I cant link to specific posts or stuff like that). I just pull up a new tab/window and have it list all posts by the player.

I still am not sure how you keep coming off as calling me scum for the Corin lynch not being “strong” in your opinion. This will be the first time I have had to argue the validity of a case AFTER a player was lynched using it. I guess my

sweet talking

bullying people outweighs evidence.

Anyways. I presented quite a bit of evidence against Corin during D1.5. The posts that I directly presented evidence are my 5, 49 (I wasn’t voting him until my 46) and 52. My 52 was post 855, and reading the rest of the day, I don’t ever see a response to that post. We see Corin debate KoC being suspicious of him in 1025 (no response to 855 yet, been almost 200 posts). Different point argued again with no response to my post in 1040 (I did respond to this in 1043). Corin more or less makes a goodbye post in 1071 (again that’s not a response to 855).

That’s it for Corin really. I made my case in my fifth post, did a PBPA in 49, made another case in 52. Corin didn’t respond to my 855, even when I referenced him to it. He argued other small points but if a suspect refuses to respond to a main point that does not mean that you stop pushing them. All this argument is seems to be “You got town lynched”. You are reaching right now for something to make me scum.

Dodge, dodge, dodge.

Your 855 "evidence" was weak at best - pure speculation about what you thought his intentions could be based on many other factors that you had no way of backing up. Speculating that an FoS on FL on D1.0 was to set up a lynch on 1.5 on FL *IF* fl flipped town is faulty logic.

Most of your case against him in 855 is - and this is a really big shocker - he's attacking FL. Who you keep defending. A defense you refuse to explain, and continue to dodge when asked about.

You called FL innocent because 3 people you thought were scum were pushing to get her lynched - yet you've managed to get 2 of the 3 on that list lynched (and they both flipped TOWN) - so your logic is shot full of holes at this point -

saying FL is still innocent when it has been revealed that town has been pushing the wagon on her gives you ZERO reason to proclaim her innocence.

(see Post #471 for proof of this)


I'd like to point out, you completely discount and ignore facts put right in front of you when the person who puts them there happens to be on your scum list at the time. Open your eyes and see the evidence.

I have already shown ample evidence that you IGNORED multiple requests for more evidence on Corin. Please read post #913 - Corin asks you then to restate your case. Armlx also says he doesn't see the case against Corin in posts #916 and #918. KoC posts in #927 that Corin's only remotely scummy act was the "I refuse to respond to that kind of bullshit" statement, versus K7's multiple scummy acts.

Post #947 - OP doesn't find Corin scummy.

Post#960 - your reply to Corin's #913, where you say he doesn't defend himself, and you

completely ignore his request for you to

RESTATE

the case, not refer back to the pitiful one in #855.

Post #1069 - OP says Llama has built a strong case on Corin, which leads to:

Post #1071 - Corin asks what the case is, because the only evidence he can find that Llama is using is lurking and refusing to respond to Llama's posts initially (because of bully voting to elicit a response). He also states that the people agreeing with Llama or citing scummy behavior ALSO fail to quote or cite specific examples. You never respond to this post (even though you make a post in 1084 to attempt to push the people not on wagon to jump on) and you say nothing outside of 1084. Were you hoping the deadline would save you from having to respond to Corin's questions and your actions on 1.5?

Post#1106 - Joubert rereads and can't find the scummy behavior everyone says Corin has.

So, I'll say it again, since the big red text still didn't result in a response.

Why did you refuse to restate or provide more evidence on Corin, given all the above information?

You were asked multiple times, and your case had doubt thrown upon it by multiple parties. Your refusal to respond because it is a past case on a person who is already lynched is DODGING. Quit hiding, defend your actions, because they alone are incredibly scummy, and the fact that you continue to refuse to defend your actions is even more scummy.

[Manito]

Searching for a replacement for killa seven.

About time.

[Manito]

What do I really want to accomplish? I'm showing quite clearly that you pushed a case with no reasonable support for your case, and I think that pretty clearly shows that you're scum. You're more interested in lynching anyone you can build momentum on, and not in who might actually be scum given the supporting evidence. The fact that you continue to dodge questions about it just because it's in the past is both hypocritical (because you're refusing to respond to the case against you right now) and also damning because ultimately, you can't defend yourself because you have nothing to support your defense. You dug a hole for yourself on D1.5, and you've tried to cover it - but it's there now and everyone can see it.

[Manito]

@Mod - you might want to remove killa seven from the non-voting player status list

[Manito]

@Mod - you might want to remove killa seven from the non-voting player status list

The act of removing killa seven's vote from play changes the number of votes needed for a majority to be formed, effectively hammering StrangerCoug.

SPEAKING OF WHICH

StrangerCoug - 5 (TheSweatpantsNinja, SpryeX, armlx, Manito, orangepenguin)
SpyreX - 3 (Netlava, ThAdmiral, StrangerCoug)
Manito - 1 (LlamaFluff)

Not voting - killa seven

10 alive, 6 to lynch.

-Me!

Oh. Well I didn't mean remove his name as in remove from the game - just remove his name and replace it with something like "IncomingReplacement" since he's obviously still trying to post in this game even though he's not technically in it any more.

[Manito]

I just implied (#1954) that Manito's vote on me was opportunistic, so the two of you are not completely forgotten.

You're calling my vote on you after a strong case was posted on you opportunistic?

Do you see the irony in that? You've had more "opportunistic" votes in this game (as detailed in Spyrex's case) than any one else this game.

[Manito]

I still think Llama is the best choice today, but it seems pretty apparent that despite the cases I've posted, no one believes me.

K7 or Netlava(FL) are both in the same boat as Llama. I'm not particularly apt to go after Spyrex, I felt his case on SC definitely was sound. Guess your signature is fitting pretty well about now Spyrex...

Of K7, Netlava(FL), Llama, and Spyrex, what seems like the most likely scum pick today?

[Manito]

Llama, K7 wasn't mentioned at any point during this recent discussion, yet you're so quick to try some really crappy logic to bolster your defense of him...

Was it meant as a joke towards OP or were you really being serious about calling K7 confirmed town?

[Manito]

My post that was in response to Llama's "case" he reposted above:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 10#1311510

So why did everyone switch to ThAd now? I miss something somewhere?

[Manito]

I've "disappeared" because (as previously stated AND ignored by Llama)

I am moving in 2 days and I've been packing.

I'm keeping abreast of developments here I'm still debating on who is the worst. Right now ThAd is sticking out the most with his behavior.

[Manito]

Llama, read this, and try and keep up.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 76#1301276

[Manito]

Given the rapid vote hopping I've seen from OP since D3 started, and recent statements haven't really backed those actions up, I'm thinking this is as good as any.

He's also come back around to Spyrex, who he initially voted, then unvoted to lynch someone else, then voted again, then unvoted, then just voted again today. I'm having a hard time faulting Spyrex because, while he has driven/started some bad lynches, they've been backed with fact supported cases rather than arbitrary supposition.

Vote: orangepenguin

[Manito]

Is there a prod out on him?

[Manito]

@manito - I didnt think an event that happened four weeks ago would still be in effect today, sorry. You still havent really given any ideas though apart from this vote on OP, this late in the game with two players already getting replaced, I dont want three players having no ties to D3.5

Yeah, when you're a renter, you usually give 30 days (4 weeks) notice so you don't get charged fees at move-out Notice was given on the 8th of October. My last day of work at the store I am currently at is tomorrow, then I have Friday - Wednesday to get moved in and situated, as well as getting the place I'm moving out of clean. We've been packing pretty hard the last week or so, which is why I've been much more quiet unfortunately. I've barely touched the computer except to quickly read/check for new posts/developments. I'll try to check regularly the next few days but I'll be moving the computer at the same time. If my internet isn't set up fast at the new place, our good friends (right next door) will I'm sure let me use their computer to check on stuff.

[Manito]

I gave a simple comment before, Netlava. This was a more detailed explanation because apparently the simple comment was missed by people who can't read single sentences. Hence the longer post...

[Manito]

Replacements could save this game.

I think it is anti-town of the mod to not be replacing people!

Says one of the recent replacements...

[Manito]

Hah, I was hoping to throw in my vote, but it looks like it's all done...

Good game all.

[Manito]

Oh, and Spyrex, I wasn't faking or trying to dupe you - all the things I posted about my life were and are happening...sorry that the truth made me credible

[Manito]

ThAd was not scum

[Manito]

Yeah, LF and I had a really good time (at least I did) going after each other...

I think it worked well - everyone saw us both pushing like true scum hunters (and we used real information to support it) but neither of us really rallied for a real lynch, just a bunch of bluster

Sorry that I had to take advantage of your trust in me Spyrex, I felt it early on and just played into it...

All in all I found the game very enjoyable though, while it was incredibly long at times, it was fun

[Manito]

Meh, I posted some pretty damn extensive cases too, I don't think I lurked nearly as much as some of the town players in this game...

[Manito]

Yeah, K7 gets LVP for me... but forbiddan, jesus, what a debut. Seriously.
And for the record, my next lynches would have been LF and Manito, who I was getting steadily more distrustful of... if only.

Hindsight is always 20/20, ain't it?