Sup Armlx lol
Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)
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Manito Goon
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Manito Goon
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Manito Goon
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I think the obvious reason he's speaking of is the fact that dcorbe is kind of a jerk?
HE'S A MAAAANIAC, MAAAANIAC...
Gimbo - 2 (Corinthian, dcorbe)
armlx - 2 (Manito, Bogre)
dcorbe - 2 (Gimbo, Joubert)
Joubert - 1 (ShadowGirl)
Firestarter - 1 (LaptopGun)
forbiddanlight - 1 (Firestarter)
voodo - 1 (forbiddanlight)
LaptopGun - 1 (armlx)
Not Voting - killa seven, Lquiz, CF Riot, Voodo, SpyreX
16 alive, 9 to lynch.
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Manito Goon
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Manito Goon
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I'm with Armlx on this one, and to quote the old addage - LAL.armlx wrote:
This actually makes me feel pretty sketchy about you.forbiddanlight wrote:I soft claimed? Actually, no, I wasn't implying I had a role at all. Since it was clearly a colossal failure I'll explain my reasoning. I wanted to test a tactic. Vote myself under the pretense of giving up, and see if any scum took the bait of. It backfired, causing people to think I was more town but frustrated, stupid, misguided, or all of the above. However, my little experiment did reveal a few interesting facts about killa seven. I think anFoS Killa Sevenis a good idea here. He definitely gave a more scummy read than the rest of you in response to what I did. I apologize for not continuing the tatic longer, but it didn't seem to be getting anywhere.
Pulling something like this as a supposed "town" aligned player is bad juju...you don't lie, that is part of what defines us. Firestarter really nailed it on the head:
However, I think both of you deserve the FoS - to me, this almost reeks of scum playing mind games just like Fire said, to attract an over-agressive townie, but when your plan backfired, Killa (one of your partners in crime?) came along and helped put some pressure on to allow you to back out of your self-vote. What does everyone else think?Firestarter wrote:I agree that killa's actions could be considered scummy, but thats only on the pretense that you are indeed town...
The alternative to this, and its something thats 50:50 regardless of your ploy, is that you are scum trying to attract an over-aggressive townie.
I dont see enough here to warrant a Fos to either you or Killa here....-
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Manito Goon
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That's exactly what I'm saying, and exactly what he said - he said he was only voting for himself in order to "get the scum to come out" - it's poor play to lie unless you're mafia - when you're town the best weapon you have is the truth, so the biggest question on my mind is why pull a stunt like this as town, it serves no benefit. Pulling it as mafia seems to make a lot more sense, as it can pretty much be a win-win - you either get the suspicion thrown off yourself early with the move (as mafia, this would keep you safer from an early lynch) OR you get the suspicion thrown on someone else who comes after you. Either way, it just seems like a bad idea to be lying like that.armlx wrote:
Meh, this isn't really a LAL scenario unless you think he is lying about his self vote being a trap. Which I sorta do.I'm with Armlx on this one, and to quote the old addage - LAL.-
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Manito Goon
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I couldn't agree more with this post. They are both fishy as hell...Bogre wrote:
Truth. Now you try and make an excuse for poor play? That is anti-town. Townies accept their mistakes and move on, not try and lie to come up with reasons. I -seriously- doubt you were self-voting as a tactic.armlx wrote:
This actually makes me feel pretty sketchy about you.forbiddanlight wrote:I soft claimed? Actually, no, I wasn't implying I had a role at all. Since it was clearly a colossal failure I'll explain my reasoning. I wanted to test a tactic. Vote myself under the pretense of giving up, and see if any scum took the bait of. It backfired, causing people to think I was more town but frustrated, stupid, misguided, or all of the above. However, my little experiment did reveal a few interesting facts about killa seven. I think anFoS Killa Sevenis a good idea here. He definitely gave a more scummy read than the rest of you in response to what I did. I apologize for not continuing the tatic longer, but it didn't seem to be getting anywhere.-
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Manito Goon
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Jeez Spyrex, that was a long post
As far as your comments towards me, it seems pointless to me to post what someone has already said, if I come up with more original ideas about people I think are scum, I'll be sure to be more verbose.
Having watched forbiddanlight continue to backpedal and lamely attempt to defend her actions, in addition to the particular quote highlighted above, I hadn't noticed it - this put everything forbiddan has done in a different light:
Spyrex, you hit the nail on the head on that note - no one who is town would imply the possibility that they are scum.I personally believe one of us is scum
Unvote
Vote: ForbiddanlightGames (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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While your defense is logical Forbiddan, playing that way, especially for someone claiming to be experienced from other games either in or out of these forums, is as has already been said, extremely erratic. I guess I'm still not convinced that your motives are entirely clean...you've played in a way that gives us all good reason to suspect you (hell, you even say yourself that you've been playing scummy) - but you just don't lie and manipulate like that when you're town - it just doesn't make sense... My vote still stands for now...I'm still not convinced of innocence.Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Wow, you two are really going at it. Take a breather guys...
forbiddanlight, I can see your point when you say the primary focus at the moment seems to be on how you're defending yourself based off the attacks currently being made against you, and that no one is focusing on the whole reason and wrongness/rightness of why you were attacked in the first place. While I don't want to necessarily detract from the current discussion, what we should be ultimately looking at here, folks, is whether her attempts to (as she puts it) oust or rile a mafia into attacking her were one of two things:
(1) was it successful in revealing mafia?
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(2) whether was it a (a)scum tactic to throw suspicion off a partner, or a (b)town tactic to incite action from scum - was the action itself too questionable in execution to exclude part (a)?
No offense Firestarter, but it seems like a lot of your arguments don't directly relate to these questions, and they seem to relate more to forbiddan's somewhat heated attempts to defend herself.
However, it all makes for great discussion, and I'm lovin' it-
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Manito Goon
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This is my point.forbiddanlight wrote:Explains it. Well, either way, I think pretty much everything is out there. If I'm going to die, I'm going to die. If I'm not going to die, then who is? Where is this discussion going?
You guys get all in a huff about "Manito just agrees with everyone" and "Manito doesn't post enough" - why would I post a bunch of inane garbage and rhetoric when I've already voted for the person I currently believe is the scummiest. I'd be more concerned with the fence-riders and the people who have no opinion, personally...-
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Manito Goon
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I'm confused. How is what I said not an opinion? How is happening to have the same opinion as someone else "not reading and just agreeing"? If we all didn't have the same opinion at some point, we'd never get past day one because no one would ever be lynched.FaerieLord wrote:
No. Not reading the game and just agreeing is not an opinion. It's just copy pasting.Knight of Cydonia wrote:He does have an opinion... it just happens to be the same as 4 or 5 other people's at any given time.
Frankly I find your playstyle rather abrasive Faerie. From your first real post, all you seem to be able to do is:
(1) Attack people's grammar or posting style
(2) Attack people for giving advice (which is ironic that you're giving advice to people to NOT give advice, oxymoron more?)
(3) Attack people for not posting enough (in your eyes).
Your initial posts contain no real opinion or information pertaining directly to the game and the dynamic at hand, rather you seem to prefer to analyze how people are saying something, while completely ignoring what is actually being said.
You make statements like this, which absolutely make me laugh out loud because of the hypocrisy:
Based on what, 3 posts? Right, we're all psychic here...By now you should know that I rarely vote.
Till forbiddan is dealt with? Yet you don't want to vote, when it's pretty simple, either you vote for her, or you don't.I'm just saying that I don't want to open up cases about other people until forbiddan light is dealt with.
What is the purpose of this post? Do we need a running commentary on your thought process?I'm having trouble what to obey right now...
Common Sense or Gut.
Then you disappear off the face of the earth for 36 posts and come back to again attack the people with few posts (hasn't anyone ever told you Quality over Quantity?) and make belittling comments about each of their posts. In the last 36 posts did your common sense or gut win over, I'm curious - or did you just have a little brain fart?
Then we come to your next post:
What is that supposed to mean, I'm totally confused by it...So you'd be more concerned about yourself, right?
My statement was that the discussion had come to a standstill, which is exactly what forbiddan stated, and couldn't have put it better: If she dies, she dies, if she doesn't, who does? Because frankly no one else is discussing any other options. I stated that I don't like to sit around and post just for the sake of posting, especially after having voted. My vote is in, and I have explained exactly why I voted. No evidence to date has come to my attention showing any reason for my vote to change or be in question, because by and large, most of the posts since my vote have been rehashes of evidence already presented (by substitutes like yourself, if you can even call it evidence this early in the game) or the swapping of personal attacks between people pointing their fingers at each other. I even posted something to this effect while Firestarter and Forbiddanlight were going at each other on page 10 (the page you are mysteriously absent from), which earned the comment "trying to look good on both sides" from you. Both sides of what? I think they're both foolish for getting into a heated, emotionally personal argument that led no where.
Personally, I have gotten a very scummy read from you so far, but that is only a first impression, because your posts, while frequent and filled with quotes, lack any REAL substance. Your reluctance to cast a vote is also very suspicious, makes me wonder what exactly you are hiding? Honestly I can't tell which way to read you, but I'd definitely would like to see some more posts from you that actually relate to your opinions on the cases, rather than recapping them for us with your own personal nitpicking...
Sorry about the long post, someone finally gave me a reason to expound a little more...-
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Manito Goon
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Careful Corinth, you might get the "he just agrees with everyone else" tag talking like thatCorinthian wrote:I'm gonna agree with manito.
Already said I dislike the "won't talk about anything else til the forbid issue is resolved" post.
I also think "I rarely vote" is a strange and scummy-sounding thing to put out there.-
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Manito Goon
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Misreading posts? Is that why two other people have already agreed that FL's "I won't talk about anything else until fl is done with" and "I rarely vote" are both idiotic?Knight of Cydonia wrote:Wow, did fl call in the cavalry to distract us, or something? Or is this just manito completely misreading every post Faerie makes for the fun of it?
FL, you go on and on about how much you've contributed to this game with your PBPA's - but to be honest, all you have provided are short, uninvolvedcommentariesABOUT people's posts, rather than providingopinionsabout current votes and discussions. Your reluctance to form an opinion and either place a vote (on fl or otherwise) is very suspicious.
Let's get a little PBPA on you, shall we?
--FL (205) #1: Simple post confirming presence in thread
--FL (206) #2: Rather uninformative PBPA highlighting the posts that stood out most to you, with small commentaries about your take on them. Some of your takes are mildly based on what seems to be your opinions on the actual scumminess of individuals, but largely you seem to point out things you just don't like about how someone posted. Quotes like "Speak English, Use Paragraphs", "Don't exaggerate", "I'm just nitpicking here", "That's pretty fucked up". Then you proceed (and this is laughable) to give the following nuggets of advice:
So you're on your second post, a new replacement in the game, trying to run in and tell everyone what to do and how to think? Giving advice to people to NOT give advice? Who died and made you king?SpyreX and Manito. Stop agreeing and start posting
Dcorbe. Start posting
Gimbo. Don't give advice
Forbiddan. Stop thinking too much
Then you proceed to attempt to actually discuss the case at hand (fl's case) by asking if anyone has played with some random player from another game, whose name you can't even remember completely, in an attempt to compare his play (for which none of us has direct reference or relevance to the current game) to fl's. Then you even state that "I think lynching her is a good idea", yet you don't say why, in particular, and even worse, you still haven't placed a vote? Why the hesitation if you think it is a good idea?
--FL (220) #3: You respond to Armlx calling you out for (shocker!) the very same thing everyone here in the last few posts has called you out for - promoting a lynch but not voting! Then you make your other statement about not wanting to start other cases until fl is dealt with.
--FL (222) #4: More of your indecisiveness, in what looks like an ATE post (the same thing you'd been accusing fl of, ironically)...
Something huge to note here folks - Spyrex pointed out right after Post 4 for FL something very important, and FL "disappeared" for 36 posts right after it, without even making any sort of response to it - here is Spyrex's post:
Why didn't you respond to this FL?Ok... what?
If you've got cases, share them.
Have opinions. Town needs voices, not lemmings.
If you dont think the lynch on Forbid is solid, stand up and go for it.
This post reeks so much of noncommittal I dont even know where to begin.
--FL (258) #5: The post you claim has so many other "options" is merely another nitpick by you pointing out how little 3 different people are posting. These aren't options, there is no case presented whatsoever (and oddly enough, you even STATE that, saying you don't want the fl case to lose momentum), so that kind of puts that theory of yours to rest.
--FL (267) #6: You state that you posted cases (even though you really haven't posted any cases with any sort of facts, just nitpicks) in an incorrect response to Armlx speaking to "fl", not "FL".
--FL (286) #7: You make a statement about me being more concerned about myself (a post which still mystifies me), a one line statement that really doesn't seem to contribute anything to the current discussion. Forbiddanlight's final question in my quote of her asks "Where is this discussion going?" - which is exactly my point. The discussion at that point, was going NO WHERE, which is why I quoted it, since I was getting flak from you and others about not posting enough. Why would I post more to add to a discussion that was going no where?
--FL (288) #8: Another short statement basically implying that I don't read the game and that I just agree with everyone.Why you go off on the whole "agreeing" with everyone thing is beyond me, as I've said before, everyone has to agree at some point, otherwise we'll never get past day one because no one will agree on a lynch.
--FL (297) #9: Finally, a REAL post. Or is it? Oh, ironically, you're replying tomyrather long post, defending yourself. Might I also add, you're defending yourself very emotionally, is the cursing really necessary?
Please, show me, where you have given an original thought or actual content that is contributing to anything but proving how non-committal and indecisive you are? Look in the mirror sometime3) It's not "not posting". It's not giving content. All you have said in this game has been agreeing with others. I have yet to see an original thought from you
Shown where? I just did a PBPA on you, and no where do I see you having aAgain, read above. Saying I have posted no real opinions is frankly a lie, as I have shownrealopinion - you have some non-committal half-opinions that go no where, but nope, no real ones.
The "simple" I was referring to was to either vote for her, or don't - either way, you can't seem to take a step in either direction (non-committal) and what's worse, you can't seem to give solid reasoning for it. Saying another case will be lost in traffic is baloney, there are plenty of people wanting to find a more solid choice than fl for our first lynch, otherwise she'd be lynched already. Saying people will accuse you of trying to make the wagon lose momentum is just you being afraid to stand up for what you think is right, if you have something concrete to contribute that will prove fl's innocence, you shouldn't be afraid to post it.No, it's not that simple. If I just post a case on someone else, the case will either be lost in the traffic (as is what happened) or people will accuse me of trying to make the wagon lose momentum.
Actually, yes, we do need people saying "I agree" - otherwise we'd be a whole game of FaerieLord's, standing around not voting and being non-committal on Day 1, while the thread grew rapidly towards 40 pages.What is the purpose of any of your posts? Do we need people saying I agree?
Cases showing people to be scummy still don't have to be belittling - you can try logical, it's a good way to do things if you want to be heard for what you're saying, and not how you're saying it.Fourthly, belittling? It's a case, obviously it's meant to show why people are scummy! What's the point of a case if it doesn't show scummy actions?
As far as my "absenses" - I work more than full time (yay for salaried), and have a fiancee - and as you have already so "aptly" pointed out, I don't post much. This just goes to show, neither of us has any right, whatsoever, to attack anyone else for not posting - it happens to everyone. So stop trying to "make cases" based on not posting, it's just stupid.
Looks like the final vote was cast, we'll continue this discussion after.-
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Manito Goon
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Preemptive OMGUS? I think I've made it pretty clear in my posts that you're awfully suspicious.FaerieLord wrote:I'm not going to call you out on it. I was going to do it pretty soon myself. Now, onto better things
Vote: Manito
Now the person who "rarely votes" casts the first vote after lynch, and without any sort of precursor or evidence? Not to mention that the statement that he was going to "do it pretty soon" (implying he was going to hammer fl).
Anyone else think that is seriously bogus??-
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Manito Goon
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You posted a case on me?
If you call summarizing my posts without offering any real opinions (outside of "I think this is scummy/not scummy) a case, I'd hate to be in your courtroom...
It's funny that you're "pretty" sure on me, with all this amazing "evidence" you seem to have fabricated in your head, yet when there was pages upon pages of discussion about fobiddanlight that had you so non-committal even though your "common sense stated she was scummy". Which are you following in your vote for me - common sense or your gut?
What's worse, we come full circle to you NOT voting on forbiddanlight after much supposed deliberation on your part, yet you immediately vote for me after she's lynched - even though you've repeatedly stated that you rarely vote?
I'll say this one more time, since it doesn't seem to be getting through to you - your two posts "full of information to digest" are devoid of CONTENT - they're gut feelings largely based on personal taste and emotion rather than logic or reason - you may think they have all this information about people in them, but that information is only valid to YOU because it's all based off of how YOU feel, and not at all on the actual information being presented by individuals...
You seem to be putting on a facade, acting like a scum hunter, but you won't vote when you feel you have the evidence - and when you're attacked, you're obviously quick to vote against your attacker, rather than defending yourself, which just looks like an attempt to point the finger elsewhere.Stop laying low, being non-committal, and base your posts less on emotion and more on fact, and maybe we'll have reason not to suspect you...
Right now, your attitude and erratic behavior (acting one way, but claiming your normal is another) are more than enough to justify my vote...
Vote: FaerieLord-
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Manito Goon
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Meh, I think it's funny that you request a PBPA from me, you must have missed the massive one I did on FL that I wrote while you were hammering that was posted shortly before the death message.Gimbo wrote:Manito: what really bothers me is that you seem to agree way too much, in fact, like FL mentioned, right after SyreX voted FL, you went in and placed a vote on FL too. This isn't the first time because I know a few pages back you did that too (too lazy to dig up), soVote:Manito, I would like a PbPA from you instead of just agreeing with people, thnx.
FoS: LaptopGun, Firestarterfor not voting at all and then after fl flipped town, comes in and starts criticizing everyone when they didn't even vote themselves.
P.S. KoC, are you calling me stupid? fuck you.
/wave
So I'm a little confused, with Llama replacing, do Gimbo's votes stand until Llama changes them? I haven't been in many games where replacements are frequent...-
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Manito Goon
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/chuckleSince you need me to put it all bit by bit
Manito wrote:
Post 1: Random Vote
Post 2: Jokes
Post 3: Jokes
Post 4: Agrees with SpyreX
Post 5: Agrees with Armlx (and uses LAL incorrectly)
Post 6: Argues meaning of LAL
Post 7: Agrees with Bogre
Post 8: Agrees with Spyrex
Post 9: Tries to look good on both sides
Post 10: Once again, triest to look good on both sides.
All this is not fabricated and is not gut. It is truly what you did. You have continously been agreeing (Barning in one word, which is believe it or not, a scum tell), trying to look nice on both sides of the fence (Which is also a scum tell) and have not provided any original content, thus fence sitting (which is also a scum tell).
It is truly what I did? Did you want some kind of prize for recapping my posts without offering any insight on them? Cause that is all you did, you summarized what you thought was in each of my posts with one or two words, and that is ALL. You didn't get specific, and you didn't offer anything NEW in the form of an idea. You just gave everyone the Cliff notes, which does nothing to help discussion.
Do I look like I'm sitting on the fence, "barning" as you'd like to call it? Just because I occasionally agree does not mean I'm trying to be nice to both sides. At least when I'm sure of something, I don't make posts like "I'm having trouble what to obey now - Common Sense or Gut" - I state my reasons and I place my vote if needed. You, on the other hand, pushed for lynch but waffled when it came to actually voting - so who is really doing the "barning" here FL?
What does it matter that I voted for you after Spyrex? He made some excellent points as well, but the frank truth of the matter is fl was hammered right before I went to work, and I didn't even get home to be able to make a post until my lunch - which isn't enough time to make a fully fledged post + vote with all the requisite reasoning for it, so I made a very brief post, ate lunch, and went back to work, and came back 4 hours later to make my post (which was not "just after Spyrex" - it was after YOUR post too).
Page 9, Post 223, by Spyrex (the exact same quote from my initial PBPA, and the exact same quote you STILL have not answered to):and the balls to say that I haven't been answering questions directed at me, which is frankly bullshit, if you know how to read posts right above yours where I answered SpyreX's every question.
SpyreX wrote:
Ok... what?FaerieLord wrote:I'm just saying that I don't want to open up cases about other people until forbiddan light is dealt with. If you (town in general) think the best way to deal with her is a lynch, I'll happily oblige. But if you think there is a better route, I'll post my cases
If you've got cases, share them.
Have opinions. Town needs voices, not lemmings.
If you dont think the lynch on Forbid is solid, stand up and go for it.
This post reeks so much of noncommittal I dont even know where to begin.
Who said you were being non-committal now? You were non-committal when fl was being voted for, and you pushed for lynch yet you never committed to voting for anyone. Trust me, no one is doubting your very committed and very erratic behavior towards me now...Also you can't say I'm non-commital. I'm running a one person tirade against you.
By concise, do you mean non-existent? This is the same thing I'm talking about - you have these ideas about people, but they are all in your head, you aren't putting them down on paper for the rest of us to see. All you're putting down is summaries of what posts have been made - not what you actually think about them. Noting when I make jokes and when I agree with people and when you
They're not just bad feelings. Just because I didn't post paragraphs about why I think he is scummy does not mean I didn't provide points. They were concise points.KoC wrote:Like Manito says, all of these opinions and much of the information boils down to "Oh, I have a bad feeling about him" - looking through, it reads more like a wall of text than anything coherent or useful.thinkthat I'm riding the fence aren't points if you don't back them up with any real opinions - you seem to expect everyone to take your summarized versions as facts, even though there is nothing to support your suppositions.-
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Manito Goon
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Posting Cliff noted summaries of others posts without analysis =/= PBPA eitherFaerieLord wrote:
Choosing parts of post =/= PBPAManito wrote:Meh, I think it's funny that you request a PBPA from me, you must have missed the massive one I did on FL that I wrote while you were hammering that was posted shortly before the death message.-
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Manito Goon
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Manito Goon
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Manito Goon
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I hate these types of PBPA - there's so little analysis, and so much recap. I hate reading these extraordinarily long posts that basically condense 16 pages I've already READ into a string of one liners. Only a few of your notes actually have your ideas or opinions, the rest is really just a condensed retelling of what we already know.
More substance, more of what you actually see from the posts, and less of what we all see, please...Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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lol, I'm averaging 3 posts a day because I'm playing two different games now, and I'm new to the site...
You might look at join dates before you start quoting stats.
Passive defense? How is fact hunting a passive defense...?This sounds like a passive defense of forbiddan, who you are voting at this point. By throwing out the possibility that the plan worked, that would also imply that forbiddan is town, which your vote does not reflect.
The entire forbiddan fiasco was a tough call, because there was so much discussion on both sides. In the end, I didn't feel that forbiddan's defense was anything more than OMGUS, which was not enough to convince me to retract my vote.seems like manito is asking someone to provide an alternative to forbiddan. Using phrases like "logical defense" "my vote stands for now and "im not convinced of innocence" both imply thoughts of forbiddan being town, since she is using good defense and the way convinced of innocence was used, it sounded like "but I can be" should of been added on. 'for now' obviously implies ability to be swayed easily
"I'm not playing like town" - in whose eyes? Since you're a replacement, I'll cut you some slack, but let's not forget that technically speaking, you're the one who hammered when there was still a lot of discussion going on. That wasn't a particularly town move. I didn't push for her lynch because that isn't what I typically do, if you read over my other posts. I prefer to post the facts as I see them, and let people make up their own minds, rather than trying to be forceful and coercive...This gets good, this post alone merits a few votes. Now, of COURSE you arent going to just spam to post or anything like that, however you are not playing like town. You seem to be very happy with your vote on forbiddan. So what? The lack of a push from you to actually get forbiddan lynched, especially with the town flip on her, makes me think that you intentionally refused to push the case and become a major part of her lynch in fear of being called on it subsequent days.
Someone please explain how that wasn't LAL - forbiddan lied to all of us about why she self-voted and made herself look all scummy, and then all of the sudden flipped around and basically said "hey, just kidding guys, I was trying to bait scum" - please, someone explain how doing that ISN'T a lie. You can't! A lie is a lie now matter how much you try to cover it up. LAL totally applies to that situation.Furthering the case against forbidden with false information (LAL) while agreeing with all other points by armix
Suspicion? You call counting my posts being suspicious of me? My "playstyle" picked up because FL's playstyle changed drastically, and actually gave me a reason to post. Up to that point, it was largely watching a boring battle of FS and forbiddan yelling and namecalling back and forth. No logic, nothing but a bunch of OMGUS back and forth...Furthermore, somthing interesting about your playstyle is, it picked up the moment you came under suspicion from FL.Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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In Post #223, SpyreX directly asks why FL is essentially riding the fence and not posting other suspicions. You're apparently calling Post #258 the response to that, 2 pages later, and even though it has pretty much been covered that Post #258 wasn't really cases, but more fluff deductions without much in the way of additional opinion or substance, outside of summarizing the post count/content of 3 individuals, myself included.I think most of Manito's case is stretching or plain wrong. In post 322 he accuses FL of ignoring a post by SpyreX. It wasn't really a question, more like a request, but still FL seemed to directly answer that request in post 258.
While I think it's great that you seem to feel safe in making the statement "Manito's case against FL being flawed", I'd certainly love to see some more proof of this statement. I think my case has been pretty much rock solid, with some grey areas that are subject to each persons interpretation of "PBPA".Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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Tough to say at this point, between all the replacements and the discussion since those replacements, there's a lot to absorb. I'll give a rundown on my current feelings I guess, but there's not a lot of what I would consider "evidence" to support my feelings, just gut reactions for the most part.@Manito:
1.) Who do you think are scum at this point aside from FL?
Llamais definitely a refreshing difference from Gimbo, but I'm 50/50 on him, there's no doubt he's thorough, but I'm ambivalent about his motives - can't tell if he's really hunting scum, or if he's just trying to look busy...tough call.
You all pretty much know my thoughts onFaerieLord- sorry, but the "I rarely vote" coupled with "I think lynching her (fl) is a good idea" all followed by no vote, and then an immediate vote against myself, his attacker, as soon as fl was lynched. No remorse, no discussion, no fact finding surrounding what might have been missed during fl's lynch - he just moves on to his next target. Bumping us off one at a time FL? Sorry, but the behavior is just too inconsistent, both before and after the lynch, as well as inconsistencies between what FL claims to do versus what he actually does.
Armlx- no intense reads on him yet, most of what he's said has been relatively low key, I'm about 80/20 town/scum on him, could be laying low, but doesn't feel that way from most of his posts. He also hasn't had any really forceful opinions however, so iffy.
JoubertI have pretty much no read on, I've honestly only taken note of a couple of his posts, he posted a random vote on dcorbe on page 2, and then disappeared till page 7 (5 pages and 5 days later), posted a rather sizable PBPA of sorts for a number of people, unvoted and pushed pretty hard for a defense from fobiddan, but more than anything I'd like to see a little more activity before I go one way or the other on him. 50/50.
killa seven- Came after fobiddan full bore for a while there, until he started getting heat for it, and since then, he's gotten awfully quiet, except to defend himself, as there were 3 FoS's to him right after lynch. Most of his posts have the "tough love" feel, as I like to put it, I think more than anything he came after forbiddan for one of the reasons forbiddan actually stated, more a policy lynch than scum, because he thought she was basically giving up on the game with the self vote. In the flurry of discussion after forbiddan's revelation of her "plan", I think it ended up being too little, too late, and k7 wasn't given enough of a reason to unvote by forbiddan. Generally speaking I get a town feel, but the "tough love" could be a cover for more sinister motives. 55/45 town/scum on k7.
SpyreX- get a pretty strong town read right off the bat, a lot of what he has had to say, I've had the odd coincidence of being in agreement with - which despite what some people think, I feel is a good thing. Nothing wrong with people being on the same page. To be perfectly honest, I haven't done an intense PBPA read of Spyrex for any scum tells, so I'll have to do that here soon, as he has posted quite a bit. At this point in time, pre-analysis, I'm getting a 70/30 town/scum read on him.
Firestarter- kinda up in the air on this one - I get the feeling that he likes flying around by the seat of his pants in here, emotionally charged posts, not afraid to throw down a vote, but the odd unvote right near the lynch time does raise an eyebrow. Pushed the lynch very very hard from early on, and then downgraded to an FoS once the momentum was built, felt very much like distancing... Post lynch, has still been somewhat active, but posted something about connectivity issues, so not so much within the last 24 hours. Just because of the erratic activity, and I'm not feeling particularly comfortable with the heated opinions and the distancing, I'm getting about a 40/60 town/scum read here.
I don't have the time to finish detailed reads on the remaining people right this minute, so will give quick one line thoughts/reads, have RL stuff to take care of today, will try and get more detailed ones in for these people later:
CF Riot- no feelings either way without more detailed reading
Corinthian - lurker feeling, seems to be sticking to the shadows, without further reading, initial feeling is 60/40 town/scum.
LaptopGun- definite sheep feeling here, and just weird, not sure how flea didn't boot him for the massive string of posts from another unrelated ongoing (?) game that totally confused me on page 9, but for the most part, seems to follow the opinion of others - without a further read, initial feeling is 40/60 town/scum.
KoC- no read till I can do a more in-depth reading, as he is fairly recent replacement.
ShadowGirl- no read because basically no posts outside of randoms, awaiting a replacement.
dcorbe- same deal as ShadowGirl, waiting on replacement.
Bogre- no particular read, have noted a couple of pretty pushy statements, but without a detailed read, sitting right at 50/50 on this one till I have more time for detailed.
Will post more on the remaining when I have time, gotta run for now.-
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Manito Goon
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To be honest, I had to look back, I didn't even see your post on that a few pages back, since your suspicions were voiced in the middle of your post...must have just missed it.CF Riot wrote: Do you have no response to my suspicion of you outside your FL case?
CF Riot wrote: The Faerie/Manito duel has been interesting. I'm siding with FL on this one. I think most of Manito's case is stretching or plain wrong. In post 322 he accuses FL of ignoring a post by SpyreX. It wasn't really a question, more like a request, but still FL seemed to directly answer that request in post 258. There are lots of examples like this where Manito is accusing FL of things that FL either hasn't done, or aren't scummy the way Manito is painting the out to be. For instance, a lot of people (not just Manito) have found a problem with FL saying he doesn't vote often then voting Manito early 1.5. I'm the same way though, and to me saying "I don't vote often" doesn't mean "I vote slowly." I took it to mean he doesn't switch his votes very often or vote for several different people all in the same day. It seems like FL has decent grounds and is confident in his case against Manito, so his timing isn't based on when the stages of the game change, but when he's decided his opinion of who he finds suspicious. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Apart from Manito's case against FL being flawed, his general play before the fight started was very weak. I don't think agreeing with given opinions is scummy, especially in a 16 person game. However, I do feel like Manito is being very noncommittal in more ways than one. The way he asks for someone to do something about conversation coming to a standstill but not taking a stance himself in post 292 feels scummy. In that same post he -sort of- indicates a suspicion of FL himself, but then gives the disclaimer "but that is only a first impression, because your posts, while frequent and filled with quotes, lack any REAL substance." And again, in the way he puts in his vote for FL after SpyreX starts the vote himself. Manito gave his entire PbPa of FL with no vote. Sees and responds to FL's D1.5 vote and doesn't vote. Then after he confirms support from another player, goes in and adds his own actual vote. I know he's said this is time related, but that seems pretty convenient.
As far as FL's response to Spyrex, it really wasn't a direct response, because the post by Spyrex was Post #223 on Page 9, and you're saying the "cases" (which I have stated really aren't cases, they are summaries with no real opinions) in Post #258 on Page 11 (2 entire pages later before he posted a response? Unlikely.) are the response to Spyrex's questions.
It also wasn't a direct answer at all, because FL says "I didn't post these before because he didn't want the momentum of the forbiddan lynch to be lost" - Spyrex directly asks FL in Post #223 to state any reason why forbiddan's lynch wasn't solid. FL didn't have to post the other cases, he just needed to provide information to the contrary of forbiddan's lynch. Rather than do that though, FL decided to post other cases, which essentially said he thought the forbiddan lynch was either (1) solid enough to continue or (2) he knew forbiddan was going down regardless of what he might say, and chose to stay out of the way (very scummy).
As far as the whole "I don't vote often" =/= "I vote slowly" argument - and what breaks that down is the fact that, at the time, the evidence against forbiddan was damning enough that FL wasn't afraid to encourage the lynch, but was afraid to cast a vote. Now, with me, his antagonist, and with pretty much no evidence outside of OMGUS, he's cast a vote without any reasoning given.
No one here is saying that "I don't vote often" = "I vote slowly" - we're all saying "I don't vote often" = "I don't vote without clear evidence" - which makes his vote against me totally contradictory to his actions during forbiddan's lynch discussion.
Not quite sure how I'm being non-committal, especially compared to FL. I saw the evidence just as many of us saw it, and I placed my vote (how is that non-committal?). However, I don't place my vote without pretty clear evidence. Then you say that I gave the PBPA of FL without a vote (probably because I want to be sure before placing a vote), and then you imply that I was waiting for someone else's support before I voted, and the fact that I work 43 hours a week was "convenient". Well I'm sorry that I don't have the time or resources to spend all my waking hours here watching the boards, I guess I'll just have to suffer the accusation that what I have to do to pay the bills is a "convenient" excuse.
Pure and simple of it all is this - I look for evidence, if the evidence is clear enough for me to make a case, and I make a solid one, I will place a vote, period. I'm sorry you don't like the "timing" of it, but it is how it is. Unless I see some sort of miraculous post refuting my reasons for voting for FL, the vote will stay.
Sorry about missing this before, hope this answers your questions.-
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Manito Goon
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Sorry Armlx, I don't put a lot of stock in meta reads. Go with the evidence in front of you, not circumstantials from other games.
Can you please contribute more than 1-liner opinions, and maybe try some real scum hunting? You're barely keeping a presence, and have been sticking to the shadows pretty firmly for the last couple of days at least.Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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What he's saying is the exact same thing I'm saying - META reads don't mean jack, especially for an experienced player.FaerieLord wrote:
What are you saying again here? I honestly do not know what you mean.Knight wrote:You can repurpose a meta. Playing a town-meta while NKing isn't hard, as long as you target the right people, so that it's unlikely people link your day-play (which reads town, as it's in line with your meta) with those you pick out at night. A half-decent wolf knows how to use WIFOM properly, to make NK's look so unlikely as to be near-impossible to read.#An experienced player such as yourself can actually use a meta read to mask actions in another game.So I'll say it again, I don't care about your meta, I care about your actions in this game and this game alone. And those actions are scummy, period.
So wait, does this prove exactly what I just said? You want us to base our opinion of you off your meta, yet you just stated that you're no longer following your meta because you're "getting bored of repeating"? Uh, case closed?FaerieLord wrote:
1)Name calling. I attacked your idea, not you. 2) No, it's getting bored of repeatingKnight wrote:Also: more of the aggression here, which never popped up while no-one was looking at you 1.0. Is this aggression and name-calling in line with your "meta"?-
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So let me get this straight.Llama wrote: At this point though I do not see myself voting for FL because I think that he is town. This is not as much guided by actions of FL, but its due to where the attack on FL is coming from.
You're not voting for FL and thinking he's town because he's under attack.
You're not basing your opinion of FL off the facts of his actions, but in fact, off the actions of others against FL?
How in the world does this jive?
There's a favorite quote from a movie that applies here:
"My father used to say: "The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose, the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk but the third time someone calls you a horse, well then perhaps it's time to go shopping for a saddle."
We're all calling FL the proverbial "horse" here, and we're basing it off of what we see. You're saying FLisn'ta "horse" just because we're all saying heis- andnot because of the evidence in front of you.-
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Manito Goon
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Good posts Firestarter, and I think you have a point to some degree - but a lot of the problem with Armlx seems to be more with how short his comments (filler) is, and not really on the scumminess of his actions. I agree that his behavior could be construed as scummy because of the semi-lurking-but-still-posting, but I'm going to have to disagree with you about Armlx being scummier than FL. There are two strong post-based analysis of FL's actions both right before and right after fobiddan's lynch, and the evidence I see there is just way too much to ignore. KoC has reiterated some very strong points, and brought some into a slightly different light since my PBPA on FL. Most notably the inconsistencies, especially the response to Gimbo's "shit" post + the immediate vote.Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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Why are you quoting outside games for reference here?
Metaing and using outside situations from completely different games is so unbelievably stupid. Defend yourself with the facts that you say prove your innocence, not analogies that don't apply with quotes from games that are NOT this one. Stop saying "I've gone over this a million times" because you HAVE NOT. You always say you have, but unless you can directly quote where you have specifically defended yourself against the claims made against you, you're full of it, pure and simple.Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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And yet again you've poked your head in, seen who is pointing their fingers your way, and disappeared without contributing anything...killa seven wrote:yea i just read your posts, all uve said is ive done something unordinary scummy as opposed to usual, then next post days later vote me with no explanation and call them instincts.
flea, can we please get a replacement if he can't be more active? This is like his 3rd prod already, and it isn't doing any good-
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Manito Goon
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Sorry that I haven't had the time to read. Have a lot going on personally that I'd rather not get into here, but since I'm being attacked for not posting reads on the remaining players, I guess I'll have to.
I'm engaged, and currently going through some rough times with my fiancee. I think that is sufficient information to suffice it to say that I could give a fuckaroo about posting my remaining reads here when I have much more important stuff to deal with. If you want the reads, have some patience. Otherwise, back off, please.Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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Manito Goon
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Still dealing with personal issues at home, things are going better but I'm still not able to devote a ton of time to making long post analyses.
I have, however, been keeping up with discussion and reading when possible, so that I'm not completely out of the loop when I do have time to post again.
I still feel that my vote is where it should be, Faerie still seems to be dodging questions and pulling the "I've already answered that" card a lot, even though he hasn't. I was leaning towards k7 back during the k7/forbiddan debate, but since then, all I've seen from him is a player who simply doesn't give a shit. Smells more like poor, somewhat moronic townie play than lurker scum play to me at this juncture.Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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Just what, exactly, are you matching me up against? I've participated in two games on this website, of which neither has completed, and this one here is the only one I am currently involved in, as I asked to be replaced in the other because of the time constraints/personal issues I mentioned earlier. So just how are you arriving at this conclusion with me, Llama...I'm curious?LlamaFluff wrote: My read on manito and corin** though are not on players that have the newb tell.They are both demonstrating scum tells that when you match them up across multiple games, they end up flipping scum instead of town. This is an observation, but go back in your games and compare the likelyhood of the annoying, lurker being scum to the chance of the fence sitter, the flipflopper, the follower. These players are much, much more likely to be scum. Period.-
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I still don't see K7 or Corin being scummier than FL.
I actually don't even get a scum read on Corin at all, but he is pretty succinct.
My vote stays where it is, of the three, FL is the only one I see deserving a vote, though K7 has definitely been antisocial since the lynch.Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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Oh, and one more thing, before I forget.
Meta is stupid, and it's being shown more and more.
People keep saying "so and so normally plays like this when they are X" - yet every person who believes in meta says that if the person being meta'd KNOWS their normal meta, then the meta is invalid.
How can ANYONE here say, with absolute, 100% certainty, that any of the meta'd individuals here do not already know their own meta? Are you all mind-readers, knowing that these individuals are unaware of their own meta for sure?
I think not. Meta reads may help to form an opinion, but anyone relying on them as solid, irrefutable evidence is a fool.Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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Maybe I'm just missing some bigger idea here, but why do people see Corin's statement that he refuses to respond to Llama's bullshit votes-to-make-people-respond tactics as scummy? I think Llama's tactics are pretty silly - throwing votes around doesn't make much sense to me either.Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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I'm ambivalent about Joubert and K7, the primary reason they are up there on my list is general attitude and lurking without purpose. They are both my "#2" pick. Can I get some sort of clarification as to why everyone has KoC on their list??? I must have missed something major for everyone to have him on their scum radar...The List wrote: armlx -> Firestarter, CF Riot, K7
Joubert
killa seven
FaerieLord -> Corin, Manito, Firestarter
SpyreX -> FaerieLord, Firestarter, K7
LlamaFluff -> Corin, Manito, KoC
Firestarter -> Corin, K7, Manito
CF Riot -> KoC, Firestarter, Manito
Corinthian - K7, FaerieLord, Firestarter
LaptopGun -> armlx, Corin, Joubert/KoC
Knight of Cydonia
TheSweatpantsNinja -> Corin, Firestarter, K7
orangepenguin -> K7, FaerieLord, KoC/Corin
Manito -> FaerieLord, Joubert or K7
StrangerCoug -> Corinthian, killa seven, FaerieLord-
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Manito Goon
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Manito Goon
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I'll say this again, as it seems to have been missed in my original posting of "The List" for myself.
What exactly is the case against KoC? I haven't seen any clear evidence as to why he is suspect for so many people...but I might have missed something.
Can someone please clarify?Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Manito Goon
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Why do you push those of us who don't feel the actions of the person you're voting for as scummier than the person we have voted for?LlamaFluff wrote:small FoSFL, K7, CRF, manito, LTG
With an approaching deadline all of you are clinging to people who honestly wont get lynched unless they admit to being scum. What are your stances on K7 and Corin, and which one is more likely scum?
Corin's actions haven't set of nearly as many alarms as FL's have on my scumdar, so please, leave well enough alone. Not going to be pressured just because everyone else is voting it. Really dislike your pushy-throw-my-vote-around-to-force-others-to-vote style.-
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Well, here we are again...
Vote: FaerieLord
The case is simple folks. Faerie refuses to vote for forbiddan, but pushes for lynch despite stating that he thought forbiddan was innocent. When Gimbo hammers, Faerie says he was going to anyways, and then immediately votes for myself, despite having said he doesn't vote often.
Then, right here at the end of day 1.5 - what does FL do yet again?
Casts the final deciding vote before the deadline that both essentially hammered Corin AND protected k7.FaerieLord wrote:Unvote, vote Corinthian
Do I really need to say anything more? It all points to scum.-
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Wasn't the act of voting for me that was scummy, was the act of saying "I rarely vote" followed by not one, but two instant votes without any precursor or reasoning - one right after lynch (was the first vote after D1 lynch I believe), and then the second vote was a switch right near the end of D1.5 that magically happened to be the "hammering" vote at deadline. Neither of the votes had much discussion to back up the reason for the vote - it was just placed, seemingly arbitrarily.LlamaFluff wrote: The rest of the case against FL seems to be "voted manito", which I am not quite sure why that is a scum action.-
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Because K7 was at the bottom of my list?LlamaFluff wrote:LlamaFluff wrote:I noticed armlx did something similar, but you arent on him for it. Why?
Also your LoS by the list was FL, Joubert, K7. Why did you not vote K7?
Do you always start at the bottom of your suspect list?
I don't jump on bandwagons just because everyone else is. We've all seen where that gets us. The only reason K7 is on my scumdar at all is D1 - since then he's been pretty much a complete ghost, contributing absolutely nothing.
Getting really pushy again Llama - even about a past vote. Why do you push so hard for people to hop on wagons?-
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I didn't think of my LoS as my list of people I was sure were scum. I highly doubt anyone thought of it that way. My LoS were the 3 people who were highest on my scum radar at that given moment. As I've already stated, K7's behavior is iffy, but not lynch worthy in my eyes. At this point, he's off my radar completely since he has posted very little recently.Games (Won Scum/Won Town/Lost Either):
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Right now, FL is top of my list of scummy behavior individuals. Despite Llama pointing out that some of the reasoning behind the last vote he placed was from the LoS, the rest of the behavior from D1 still outweighs that in my book.CF Riot wrote:
Who's on it? Any number of people is fine.Manito wrote:At this point, [K7's] off my radar...
Other than that, a lot of people have just dropped below my view of "suspicious" behavior, primarily from inactivity. K7 rarely posts, and if he does, there's no content, just him being a smartass. Joubert is also fairly sporadic. I'm still a little confused by everyone's suspicions of FS and KoC, but I must have missed something big there, as suspicious as everyone else is of them.-
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One of the first signs of someone failing in an argument? Personal attacks not pertaining to the subject at hand, one of the most common attacks being a persons grammar or spelling.FaerieLord wrote:
OPkilla wrote:OP why are you voting me? you have lurked way worse then me im sure.
Ill do a PBPA on you as well, its funny i keep forgetting your in this game.,why are you votingforme?You have lurked way worsethanI have. I'll do a PBPA on you as well, it's funny I keep forgetting you'rein this game.
You're welcome
What's really bad? When that person correcting the other individual screws up and makes a typo in their own post (you're missing a space between "than" and "I").
Lesson? Don't use someone's bad grammar or spelling as your defense when you are attacked - you just look guilty and desperate because of it.-
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- Goon
- Posts: 169
- Joined: June 8, 2008
Yep, was male when he first repped in, I remember being confused about it at first too, when we were determining that "fl" was forbiddanlight and "FL" was FaerieLord (since fl is female and FL is (or was?) male)...armlx wrote:
Since when did that happen?The little icon below FaerieLord avatar says FL is female.
Maybe that's what he or she is confused about...those darn gender reassignments can really spin you about I guess-
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Manito Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 169
- Joined: June 8, 2008
You've pretty much covered the only reason I would post. So far, the only individual who is really high on my scum radar is FL. K7 and Joubert are to some degree, but only because neither have contributed to this game (and Joubert is being replaced). All the other conjecture I have seen about other suspects hasn't been convincing enough to me, I've seen a lot of half-assed accusations, but no real hard evidence that would make me change my mind from FL. So I guess I'm curious, what exactly do you want me to do? Reiterate my thoughts, yet again, that FL is scum? Say again, that I don't see the validity in a lot of the "scumtells" that people have been throwing around about other current suspects? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Right now the only other person who is tickling my scum radar at all is armlx, with his often one-line responses agreeing with this or that in terse fashion. Gives me the feeling that he's trying to goad and push people without really getting into a heavy discussion about it, feels manipulative.CF Riot wrote:Manito can you post something game related please? You haven't really said anything all D2 except "I still suspect FL for the same reasons as before."-
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Manito Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 169
- Joined: June 8, 2008
And Llama, your Emperor's New Groove avatar was _way_ cooler.
BOM CHICKA WAH WAH
Firestarter - 4 (CF Riot, SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia, StrangerCoug)
Knight of Cydonia - 3 (LlamaFluff, killa seven, orangepenguin)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)
killa seven - 1 (Joubert)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)
CF Riot - 1 (Firestarter)
Not Voting - armlx
13 alive, 7 to lynch.
-Mod