Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[petroleumjelly]

/confirm

[petroleumjelly]

The mod already acknowledged that you had confirmed. Why confirm in-thread now?

Vote: Eddie Cane

[petroleumjelly]

Looking like we should lynch Eddie Cane, Pine, and Axelrod.

I also don't believe CooLDoG's claim, but I'm not terribly interested in the topic right now.

[petroleumjelly]

Looking like we should lynch Eddie Cane, Pine, and Axelrod.

I also don't believe CooLDoG's claim, but I'm not terribly interested in the topic right now.

Why? Please explain.

Petroleumjelly: Do you have any content to add to the game besides bad sheeping? Why do you SR Eddie, Pine, and Axelrod? Do you think theyre all scum partners, or do you have independent reads? Do you have any thoughts on any other players in this game?

1.)

Eddie Cane's "confirm" in-thread seems to be a poor attempt to act like he was just now starting the game, implicitly suggesting he had not already confirmed elsewhere. His follow-up "non-RVS" vote is not convincing. He then tried to gloss both of these things over as "old" people not understanding "jokes." Neither post was very "jokey."

Since my vote, he is trying to act tough/uninterested until the bandwagon on him melts away. I see no reason for it to. He is still currently my best guess for scum. His play seems nervous, and he is very obviously trying to wait things out. Even now, instead of contributing, he just posts fluff ("I'm not answering," "I'm waiting... get back to me," "I'm not going to rush...," "the game finally gets interesting").

2.)

Pine started off the game being improperly 'white-knighty' towards Old Man's identity; it was preachy and unnecessary. His "ruleset" question being due to his "respect people and don't be toxic kick" was rather immediately thrown into question when he told CooLDoG to "sit on it," and has since told chamber "bite me."

Since my post, I also very much am not a fan of the "simmer down, Eddie" post. If either Eddie Cane or Pine flips scum, then this post suggests a connection.

3.)

Axelrod was thrown in because he looked fairly connected to Eddie Pine. He voted for the third voter of Eddie Pine (minor), but then he made this post:

THE GREAT CONFIRMATION MYSTERY - 2018!

This appears to try to make light of the entire confirmation issue so that it is more dismissable, when I think it's about as legitimate a reason to vote somebody on page two of a game.

The fact that he has now attacked both Eddie Cane and Pine seems like a slight about-face to me. I am not really buying into the "over-justification" reasoning people have since used.

4.)

CooLDoG's claim is questionable because this is a Normal Game. Technically the role is not explicitly disallowed by the Normal Guidelines, but I do not think a Paranoid Gun Owner has been used/allowed in a Normal Game for several years.

5.)

Yes, I do have a couple other mild reads, but I am not going to go into them.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Eddie Cane, please actually answer my earlier question:

The mod already acknowledged that you had confirmed. Why confirm in-thread now?

2.)

By my count, five out of eight votes needed to lynch appeared on a newbie player within a lightning-short span of time.

Why do you think Eddie Cane is a "newbie player"? He has over 6000 posts on the site.

3.)

Games don't require everyone to confirm before they start, just the majority. I've played plenty of games where it started before I saw the PM to confirm, and it wasn't an issue? How is that AI?

That may be true for other games, but confirming was necessary for this game:

Role PMs are going out. Please /confirm in-thread. Day 1 will start when

everyone

has confirmed.

That means Eddie Cane confirmed out-of-thread, and then confirmed in-thread a second time after the game had already started. Looks disingenuous to me. Why not just start the game by his second post, where he places a vote?

4.)

Tywin Lannister, painting me with a brush of "sheeping" and being "unoriginal" isn't helping you.

By my Post 64, nobody had advocated lynching Pine or Axelrod. Nobody had explicitly doubted CooLDoG's claim (unless you want to count chamber). And while the initial votes on Eddie Cane appeared to be do his not confirming in-thread, my vote was sparked by the fact that he confirmed in-thread after the game had begun, and he had apparently already confirmed out-of-thread.

Real question: Did you attribute the

later

posts and votes on Pine and Axelrod as evidence that I was sheeping suspicion on those two players?

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Relative to the age of the players in this game, Eddie Cane would be considered a newbie player, with a join date of only 2017. Chamber had made the comment that players joining at even 2010 or 2011 wouldn't be considered "old", which, to me is pompous, if not frankly ludicrous. What would that make Eddie Cane? An infant?

How does this pedantic line of questioning help you or the rest of the town figure out the alignment of myself, or perhaps Eddie Cane? I find it a filler and trivial nitpick. I have written hundreds of words of content; is the definition of this one word the only thing that you have to comment on?

Again, I wish to express my opinion that the wagon on Eddie Cane is not necessarily entirely scum (obviously, it can't possibly be, though the fact that I believe it's scum-driven remains), but it is most certainly frowned upon, if not disgusting. What this appears to me is the prejudiced bullying of a newbie player outside the old-generation clique, that is not only elitist but also exclusionist behavior. The trivial reasoning given as a vote for RVS is sufficient, but the fact that this insignificant discussion about confirmations continues at this point and is marketed as a "serious" push is simply a thinly-veiled policy lynch. I don't know Eddie Cane's alignment but this seems no better than a random lynch, which, going by base probabilities, would net us a scum only 25% of the time.

While Eddie Cane has a "recent" join date, that doesn't make him a 'newbie player.' A cursory search of his posts shows that he actually played on another site (Smogon) before playing here. A "newbie" is generally somebody who has played less than five games of mafia.

The fact that you have "hundreds of words of content" does not mean I want to engage in it all. Your defense of Eddie Cane seemed to be based on the fact that there was a 'fast' wagon on a 'newbie' player; you then implied the wagon on him is 'scum-motivated.'

Your last paragraph here is especially bad. So the Eddie Cane wagon is not only "frowned upon," but "disgusting," "prejudiced bullying," "elitist but also exclusionist," and a "thinly-veiled policy lynch"? I'm not buying what you're selling.

2.)

This is a good segway to why KMD is scum (1). Look at TM18. At the beginning of my game people but particularly LLD, Bulba, and T-Bone were all talking down to me - they "could not believe" a player could respect my reads. At the end of TM, the host said I played singularly the out of the tournament. The relevant part is here: https://gyazo.com/15919b28a5faa5e91f27695039bd9830 where KMD changed the tide of the game and people stopped being guzzlers. Its the same thing here, where people don't know me and don't respect me as a player, and town!KMD should have at least pointed out I'm not some newbie or shit. It was obvious to me from pregame that I was gonna get wagoned and/or mislynched at some point this game due to circlejerk, and it wasn't really surprising people managed to find a reason to wagon me before I posted. I would think town!KMD would defend me as a player rather than hopping on the wagon on the newbie, so yes, that's >rand chance of being scum, but its RVS. I was waiting to see if he'd defend people as people kept talking down to me, and he didn't. I would have rathered wait longer to give it more of a chance before saying it but V/LA.

Based on the link you provided, in Team Mafia somebody explicitly asked Kmd4390 thought about you as a player, and he gave a response about how he thinks well of you. In other words, Kmd4390 did not go out of his way to defend your play in that game. If that is correct (and it may not be), why would you think he would defend you on pages one/two in this game for reasons not even related to your issues in Team Mafia?

Your defeatist language is noted. You can also cut back on your constant insults.

3.)

Firebringer, why is MagnaofIllusion your preferred vote?

4.)

roflcopter, convince me out of the Eddie Cane wagon.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

I'd love for others to weigh in if they think you honestly were trying to get me to disclose some sort of self-assessment as scum as opposed to a specific attempt to insult and undermine.

Old Man oversells himself. He claims to be running experiments, diagnoses, constantly points out how much he is "engaging," and directly invites people to exchange walls with him (i.e., "I have hundreds of words... is that all you have to comment on?"). He is trying very hard to present himself as keen dissector of posts and being highly logical, etc. I also agree that his "oh, you got your first Scummie after eight years?" comment was uncalled for and fishing for a negative reaction; I don't believe it was intended to help "sort" you.

I can definitely say I am not

enjoying

Old Man's posting very much. I have a mild scumread overall. As I mentioned previously, I particularly do not like his highly exaggerated language when talking about the Eddie Cane wagon (calling it "disgusting," etc.). I do recognize that there is a part of me that

wants

him to be scum, though.

2.)

I think PJ is very Town here in quite a few ways after reading posts. 1) angleshooting that seems townie 2) level of effort that Pj probably can’t replicate in a scum fashion. Also played with pj and his scum I would describe as more “play dumb”

You might be basing your read on our face-to-face interactions at the Pleasanton meet. I think my online play is very different. Without going too deep into a self-meta thing, I would say I am formidable as scum.

3.)

Pine, what are your thoughts on Axelrod?

4.)

Eddie Cane, let's assume I believe that your delayed in-thread confirmation was a joke that really didn't land for me. If you can explain it, do you have any particular reasons behind your behavior up until Post 128 (when you seem to take the game more seriously)?

5.)

Kmd4390, in Post #192 you give Eddie Cane a Townread because he voted you for a non-random reason without explaining why, and you "can't think of a good reason for scum to withhold that reason." You then call my Post #164 "terrible" because I give names to lynch "without a single reason." Could you explain this a bit more?

As an aside, you suggest that I tacked Axelrod as a lynch target because he hadn't posted much and therefore seemed to be an 'easy target.' Under no circumstances would I call Axelrod an "easy target." I have played with him long ago, and he is excellent. (And had I answered hitogoroshi's question about who I was most excited to play with, my answer would have been Axelrod). I currently having a mild but cautious Townread on him.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

5.)

Kmd4390, in Post #192 you give Eddie Cane a Townread because he voted you for a non-random reason without explaining why, and you "can't think of a good reason for scum to withhold that reason." You then call my Post #164 "terrible" because I give names to lynch "without a single reason." Could you explain this a bit more?

Jelly it's the way it was done. Eddie intentionally withheld his reasoning and made a point in making sure we knew he was doing so. Yours was just... A list.

This is a distinction without a difference. I obviously had reasons for 'listing' those three people that I was simply choosing not to elaborate on at the time. Why did you give Eddie Cane credit for having reasons, but not me?

2.)

When discussing the confirmation votes, you say:

To me, the confirmations themselves really didn't mean much. The interesting things are the wagon on Eddie and the reactions from both players.

You then proceed to discuss Pine's reaction and

chamber's

reaction to Eddie Cane's reaction... but you somehow don't actually discuss Eddie Cane's reaction.

So what do you think of Eddie Cane's reaction to his wagon?

3.)

do kind of like Eddie's explanation @156 for why he voted KMD, and the rest of that post is mostly okay also.

Can you elaborate? I don't find his reason for voting Kmd4390 very convincing. It basically boils down to "he should have been defending me, not voting for me!" That's not a very realistic expectation, especially since the reasons he was being voted in this game had nothing to do with whether he is a respectable (or a newbie) player.

(And if anything, I generally expect players with a history of respect for each other are

more

likely to vote each other at the start of a game as a friendly jab).

4.)

Eddie Cane, please respond:

4.)

Eddie Cane, let's assume I believe that your delayed in-thread confirmation was a joke that really didn't land for me. If you can explain it, do you have any particular reasons behind your behavior up until Post 128 (when you seem to take the game more seriously)?

Also, as for your complaints about how 'slow' this game is: this is a Geriatrics Game. The Ruleset is specifically designed to make the game slower than other games on the site. Speaking for myself, I don't have a lot of time for this game, and I expect I will be able to post about once a night after work on average. The Geriatric Ruleset is the only reason I was willing to sign up.

5.)

i have this vague suspicion that hito and axel are scum together but i can't really put it into words right now

Do you think they are scum with Old Man, or is this independent?

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

I dont understand what you're asking, seems like a dumb question easily answered by many of my posts?

Then I'll rephrase.

I have a difficult time reading your posts (up through 128) as coming from a Town mindset. As I said before, I will assume for the sake of argument that your "confirm" post was indeed a joke, though I am not sold on that. You then proceed to decline to respond to posts and act uninterested in the game (e.g., asking us to get back to you by page 10). Your posts read like you were trying to wait out your wagon in the hopes it went away without you having to do anything.

If that's

not

the narrative I am supposed to gather from your posts, then what is? I don't really understand your playstyle, or why you have played the way you have played.

2.)

All that said, I'm Town here. Hence my drive to be honest and disclose things.

Can you please explain why you moved your vote to Axelrod?

I could, but I choose not to.

Let's try again. Could you explain your Axelrod vote?

3.)

I am skeptical of Old Man's Innocent Child claim. But like CooLDoG's claim, I'm not interested in pursuing it right now.

4.)

Given Axelrod's Post #238, I am solidly back to my initial gut read that Axelrod looks decently connected to Eddie Cane (or possibly Pine).

5.)

Tywin Lannister, please answer my earlier question:

Real question: Did you attribute the later posts and votes on Pine and Axelrod as evidence that I was sheeping suspicion on those two players?

6.)

hitogoroshi, your reasoning in Post #262 seems a bit simplistic.

Players can attack a scummy case on Player X without knowing (or having to decide) if Player X is Town or Scum. And if they think the case itself is bad (or 'scum-motivated,' as was implied), it stands to reason that they are not likely to join the wagon.

7.)

That said, I

also

think Tywin Lannister's analysis in Post #255 is also highly simplistic. It basically boils down to "people who pushed on Eddie Cane and Pine are scum" and then most of the remainder of his stances seem to be loosely based on the premise that he is correct in his scumreads.

[petroleumjelly]

1.

what if old man is some kind of powerful scum role that they just really need to have alive on night one?

Why bring this up without offering your opinion (or a solution)?

2.)

Jelly, how do you see Eddie's play as nervous? I don't see any way a nervous player intentionally waits on explaining a vote while he's the leading wagon.

His early posts look like active lurking / avoidance; he makes a point to post in the thread, but he does so without offering actual opinions. In particular, he struck me as nervous in Post #83. His reaction was so over-the-top / insulting; I think he was trying to act 'tough' to mask his concern over his wagon.

3.)

I can't tell you what my mindset is, lmao. Engage with Axel or KMD or whoever else has gave a depiction of my thoughts. I've explained my actions very clearly and if that's what you're asking I still don't understand.

Let's try this, then:

->

a.)

Why did you make a joke "confirm" post without any indications in the post that it was a joke (e.g., adding a wink)? Why not just start the game with your Kmd4390 vote?
->

b.)

Why did you fly off the handle in Post #83?
->

c.)

Why did you post so many times without offering any opinions or questions (e.g., "I'm not replying," "I'm waiting... get back to me," "Sigh," "the game finally gets interesting")? Is this a modus operandi for you?

4.)

For the most part I like CooLDoG's catch-up posts so far (though I'm not a fan of the language).

3) How the fuck are you getting all of these complex association tells on page 3?

Pine telling Eddie Cane to "simmer down" is a decent connection-tell in my experience. In my early days, I was caught using it as scum in College Mafia for a similar thing. I told a fellow mafiate on Day One to "take a chill pill". I was promptly called out on it and we were both lynched.

The last example of using this tell that I can recall is in Day One in Mini #1752, when I noticed a player tell another to "straighten up and fly right". They turned out to be scum together.

My conjecture about Axelrod was mostly based on gut.

[petroleumjelly]

-> c.) Why did you post so many times without offering any opinions or questions (e.g., "I'm not replying," "I'm waiting... get back to me," "Sigh," "the game finally gets interesting")? Is this a modus operandi for you?

c.) why don't you do a 5 minute skim of any of my games and get back to me.

Fine.

Your last completed game appears to be Touhou UCanPick5, where you were engaging with the game early and often by page two. You were Town.

Skipping The Resistance #1 since you were hydraing with Alisae. Skipping BooneyToonz since you replaced in on page 25. Skipping Mini #1991 since you replaced in on page 15. Skipping World Record Mafia since your first post was on page 27. And you have posts in several games you apparently did not play in. By now I've spent far more than five minutes.

So the one comparable game I managed to find does

not

suggest you intentionally sit around obstinately on Day One, which you have implied is typical for you.

Here's what I'll request. Please try to set aside your ego and answer my questions as best you can. Essentially what all of my questions are getting at are: why have been playing the way you are playing this game?

~

Will get to other things in a separate post.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Firebringer, why is Eddie Cane Town? Additionally, why have you been going on about giving Eddie Cane "three guesses" for why you are reading him as Town?

2.)

Pine, looks like you've been actively lurking a bit lately. You were posting quite a bit at the start of the game, but you've done very little this week by comparison. Any reason for that?

3.)

PJ

: Let's say I'm buying what you're selling about PineEddie but I think that Tywin, Pine, Eddie is the best order to test the theory in (and stopping to re-evaluate if we ever mislynch, obviously). That get you on board the Tywin wagon?

I prefer not to actually lynch based on connection tells until there is a confirmed, flipped scum.

That said, if I were not still trying to get answers from Eddie Cane, my vote would likely be on either Kmd4390 or Tywin Lannister. (Or if I were in a pressure-voting mood, I could swing to voting roflcopter, Pine, or Morality). I am waiting for both of them to finish catching up and answer pending questions.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Eddie Cane, your idea of 'fun' seems to come at the expense of others. In the first you cite (Mini Normal #1931, your 'style' was apparently to intentionally antagonize people to get 'reads' on them.

I can talk down to you if you wish. I think you play like a jerk. You put others down while hoisting yourself up. You play with an ego, and it's a problem. I am very close to replacing out of this game because I would rather not try to continue playing with you.

2.)

Eddie Cane, what do you think of Pine?

3.)

Pine:

PJ I have not been active lurking. I have more posts than anyone else, including more than thrice your total.

As Axel said, the relaxed pace makes it easy to just coast for a while and see what develops.

More importantly, though I just haven't seen anything enough that makes me want to change my mind about reads.

First, comparing your post count to my post is a deflection at best.

Second, try checking your own posts. You had 33 posts from the start of the game through Sunday (4/25 - 4/29). Then you had only 7 posts from Monday through Friday (4/30 - 5/4), and in those seven posts, four of them literally said nothing pertinent at all (see Post #221, Post #223, Post #243, and Post #292). Your other three posts don't even question people; at best, you "WIFOM-bomb" yourself with a question (see Post #219) such that you don't give a firm opinion of Hitogoroshi beyond 'bad vibes.'

I'd say this is textbook active lurking.

Third, even if there is nothing in the thread that is changing your mind about your reads, that does not excuse you from engaging with other players.

Fourth, please explain your Axelrod vote. You started off the game quipping that because you're Town, you'll be honest and 'disclose things.' Pony up.

[petroleumjelly]

Rare post from work, as I do not expect to be able to post tonight.

1.)

Firebringer, please explain why Eddie Cane is Town, and why you are going through with this “three guesses” for Eddie Cane to guess why. Eddie Cane has already said he has “no more guesses” (see Post #249).

2.)

Firebringer, please answer why you are currently voting for Morality when chamber (who Morality replaced) was a Townread of yours to the point you offered to ‘townblock’ with him.

3.)

roflcopter, please answer my earlier question:

1.

what if old man is some kind of powerful scum role that they just really need to have alive on night one?

Why bring this up without offering your opinion (or a solution)?

4.)

roflcopter, why are you voting for hitogoroshi? Does this tie back to your Axelrod/hitogoroshi pairing, or something else?

5.)

MagnaofIllusion, how often to you “delegate” your reads to other players (specifically, delegating your Firebringer read to Pine)? Would you agree with the characterization that this was partially a move so that you did not have to continue a back-and-forth with Firebringer?

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Eddie Cane, earlier you said this:

I couldn't say this before, but Pine and I had an ongoing game during this and his posting here felt like he was genuinely trying to sort me. 52 is pretty townie. his attempts to engage me ring genuine from the perspective he was a player who just saw me perform as (pocketed) town. some of his posts kind of felt buddy-y on the surface but i doubt he'd hard buddy me 2 games in a row in immediate succession so i don't read into it. pine is my most hesitant tr but i'm still gonna call him a tr above a lean and he's off the table for a lynch.

I have not gotten the impression that Pine has been trying to sort you

at all

. Rather, Pine's posts appear to be defending you from the get-go (including Post #52, which you cite). He has not questioned you at all (if anything, he has supplied explanations

for

you), or really engaged with you. The only 'interaction' I can even find is when he "passed" on discussing Firebringer with you (see Post #174).

Where did you get this impression?

2.)

Pine, can you consolidate/re-explain why you had a scumread on chamber?

3.)

It's weird how little I can remember PJ's positions aside from his Eddie posting. Like I can't even tell you PJ's vote off the top of my head. His questions have seemed to be purposeful and not vacuous thread-filler and I've had a soft town read on him, but what does it mean that I can't really trace his shadow through the game? Well, if PJ is a townie laying bear traps, presumably one will snap at some point and I'll see it then. It should be easy to spot because that's kind of my style also (it used to be about my ONLY style, in fact).

That's a fair criticism. I probably try to 'play detective' a bit much; it's that allure of cracking the 'case' that keeps sucking me back into playing.

Currently my scumpool is a nebulous mix of {Eddie Cane, Pine, Kmd4390, Tywin Lannister, and roflcopter} while waiting until Day Two to bother with {Old Man}. There are also a couple potential connections I can see (e.g., Axelrod), but those are only worth really pursuing after scumflips. I generally prefer not to discuss Townreads, though I have a couple strong ones and a couple weak ones by this point.

[petroleumjelly]

I have not gotten the impression that Pine has been trying to sort you at all. Rather, Pine's posts appear to be defending you from the get-go (including Post #52, which you cite). He has not questioned you at all (if anything, he has supplied explanations for you), or really engaged with you. The only 'interaction' I can even find is when he "passed" on discussing Firebringer with you (see Post #174).

Sorting doesn't mean asking a bunch of questions. He's sorting my alignment, internally. It followed off our last game and recent games are always more fresh in your subconscious.

Can you give a more in-depth explanation? Why and where have you gotten the impression that Pine has been trying to "sort" you this game?

[petroleumjelly]

I have not gotten the impression that Pine has been trying to sort you at all. Rather, Pine's posts appear to be defending you from the get-go (including Post #52, which you cite). He has not questioned you at all (if anything, he has supplied explanations for you), or really engaged with you. The only 'interaction' I can even find is when he "passed" on discussing Firebringer with you (see Post #174).

Sorting doesn't mean asking a bunch of questions. He's sorting my alignment, internally. It followed off our last game and recent games are always more fresh in your subconscious.

Can you give a more in-depth explanation? Why and where have you gotten the impression that Pine has been trying to "sort" you this game?

You already listed posts...

That's not good enough.

I have read through Pine's posts multiple times now, and I am legitimately not seeing it. He has been blindly defending you from pushes and has attacked those who attacked you (and invited you to vote chamber with him). It is no surprise he does not find the confirmation pushes to have any merit, since that would just make himself look bad. He first asked you to "simmer down," which was then later followed by Post #144, which reads as a second not-so-subtle attempt to request that you be less adversarial. This isn't sorting; this is advising.

Pine's posting reads to me like he's your partner trying to defend against you being wagoned while advising you on how to change up your play to avoid garnering votes (see my Post #286 where I explain the connection tell).

What I

don't

see is somebody who is internally debating whether you are Town or Scum. He has basically just defended you as if you were Town from the beginning.

Please explain why you feel Pine is internally "sorting" you.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Eddie Cane, please explain why you feel Pine is internally "sorting" you.

2.)

roflcopter, please answer my questions from Post #344.

3.)

Same goes for Firebringer. Please answer my questions from Post #344.

4.)

I do not believe Tywin Lannister's force-replacement is particularly alignment indicative. It appears he posts on-site for half of the week; he generally posts Wednesday through Saturday, and rarely posts Sunday through Tuesday. (This appears to be the cause of his initial force-replacement that was retracted). His last post in this game (Saturday, May 5th) was also the last day he posted on-site.

5.)

Lycanfire, can you please clarify Post #465? Are you scumreading both chamber's slot

and

Pine, or just Pine? And why are you voting for Pine if you have only read six pages of the game? Are you aware he is a leading wagon?

[petroleumjelly]

Reasons to vote Eddie Cane:

1.)

Not confirming in-thread, though is at

best

a minor point. The theory here is that he could have possibly confirmed in a scum PT,

or

he could have been intentionally holding off an official in-thread confirmation, thinking it would allow him more time to talk in the scum PT before the game began.

2.)

After the Mod announced the game had begun -- i.e., everybody had confirmed -- Eddie Cane quietly confirmed in-thread and then made a "not RVS" vote.

Had nobody called out his in-thread confirmation, it would have appeared that he was just now confirming and hadn't realized the game had started until posting. I think this post was an intentional attempt to conform. It suggests without saying.

3.)

When pressed about both his confirmation and his non-RVS vote, he simply posted "revelation: old people don't understand jokes." This is problematic in multiple ways.

First, Eddie Cane is wedging the term "old people" into the game as a contrast to himself. While clearly not a newbie, he has multiple times 'explained' the votes on him as being because he has a more recent join date, and that his wagon is 'policy.' This is very obviously not the case. It's like he's trying to get the benefits of playing the newbie card while acknowledging he is not a newbie.

Second, Eddie Cane did not initially clarify whether he "confirmation" or his non-RVS vote was supposed to be a joke. His sweep is far too general.

Third, if the in-thread confirmation was a joke, then there were

no

suggestions that it was a joke. There are multiple ways that could have been done. And yet apparently adding a winky face (or literally

any

comment to suggest he was joking) is "stupid bullshit". Clearly it isn't, especially coming from somebody who already uses emoticons fairly frequently in their posting.

4.)

Eddie Cane then declined to interact with chamber's legitimate prodding, and ultimately attempted to excuse himself from posting content potentially up to page 10 of the game (see Post #70). When he was correctly called out on this by MagnaofIllusion, Eddie Cane had the absurd over-reaction of:

Arrogant oldie thinking he knows better than me, complete with

bold

and

italics

. next time try underlining it I might understand better. You should check your math, though, because it's more like 1-2 days at max. I'm not going to rush my sorting because of a retarded wagon on me.

This post is

incredibly

bad, and pretty childish overall.

First, and

again

, Eddie Cane draws a line between an ("arrogant") "oldie" and himself.

Second, he then tries to shift the discussion as if people are talking down to him (which is a constant theme when somebody is pressig him). That is not what's happening here. MagnaofIllusion was putting a stop to any attempts of Eddie Cane to avoid having to post content for a significant portion of the game.

Third, Eddie Cane dismisses his wagon as being "retarded." Besides being language he obviously shouldn't be avoiding, it's also not the case. RVS wagons are often necessary to give a game momentum (which he must know). The reasons for a wagon starting on him in this game are as legitimate as anything. And the two additional votes (from myself and chamber) were due to his

reactions

to his wagon.

5.)

When Eddie Cane gives his first post with reads in it (see Post #128), there is little explanation, but what stands out to me is how his reads seem to correlate with those on or off his wagon. His three scumreads (Kmd4390, myself, and chamber) are all players who were voting for him. His top two Townreads (CooLDog and Old Man) are a claimed power role and the guy going most all-out against the Eddie Wagon cane. His other two Townreads (Kison and roflcopter) are a player who finds the confirmation votes "silly" and a player who voted for Axelrod while saying it was a "better vote than eddie or pine."

Essentially, all of his stated reads appear be surface-level and reactionary as to whether players agree with the gist of the Eddie Cane/Pine push.

6.)

For my part, I tried to look at things from another angle at this point in the game. I did not like (and still do not like) Eddie Cane's posting, but it is certainly possible that part of my scumread on him can be attributed to me simply not liking his playstyle, and maybe his confirmation post was a poor joke.

I tried to ask him

multiple

times to explain his motivations as to why he was playing the way he was (see Post #195, Post #227, Post #263, Post #286, and Post #303). I still never really received a satisfactory answer.

At first he "couldn't tell me" what his mindset was, and then invited me to ask

other

players to fill in Eddie Cane's mindset for me (Post #278). He later sweeps away my questions again and then invites me to spend "five minutes" skimming any of his games (Post #289). After I do that, he basically reverts to insisting I am "talking down to him" (Post #306) when it is very clear I am just trying to get actual answers from him.

7.)

Eddie has also been highly evasive when I pressed on him on his read of Pine:

I couldn't say this before, but Pine and I had an ongoing game during this and his posting here felt like he was genuinely trying to sort me. 52 is pretty townie. his attempts to engage me ring genuine from the perspective he was a player who just saw me perform as (pocketed) town. some of his posts kind of felt buddy-y on the surface but i doubt he'd hard buddy me 2 games in a row in immediate succession so i don't read into it. pine is my most hesitant tr but i'm still gonna call him a tr above a lean and he's off the table for a lynch.

First, Eddie Cane indicates he was thinking Pine has been trying to "sort him" well before this post, and that he was simply waiting to be able to say so. Second, he explicitly says that Pine has had "attempts to engage" with him.

When asked, Eddie's first response was:

Sorting doesn't mean asking a bunch of questions. He's sorting my alignment, internally. It followed off our last game and recent games are always more fresh in your subconscious.

I press again for a more in-depth explanation, and we get:

You already listed posts...

I press a third time, and now:

1.) Eddie Cane, please explain why you feel Pine is internally "sorting" you.

asking me the same retarded question while i'm busy irl for a third time is not going to make me answer quicker, maybe try 4 or 5?

I don't remember why I thought that. Looking back Pine's early stuff still doesn't look scummy to me. He's defending someone he knows is competent from stupid bullshit such as not adding a winkie face to a joke.

So now, the thing that Eddie Cane was initially thinking but

couldn't say

about Pine, and then he

could

say about Pine once their other game ended, is something he "can't remember." And apparently he can't figure out what it was by simply re-reading Pine's posts in this game.

I think Eddie Cane's "read" on Pine is completely fabricated. While initially giving his read, he expressly said that Pine was "engaging" with him, but after being pressed he withdraws and changes up the language, suggesting Pine is simply sorting him "internally" and therefore doesn't have to ask questions or actively discuss anything with him. And now he somehow doesn't remember where he got his impression.

~

Even now Eddie Cane's reads ultimately appear to be that people who support him in the game are Town, and people who attack (or "annoy") him in the game are scum, with the occasional nuance thrown in for players in-between. He continually avoids explaining himself, and acts offended when he is pressed. While clearly not a newbie, he is happy to jump to how "old" players are attacking him in a "circlejerk" of voting for a player with a recent join date.

At this point I strongly encourage more votes on Eddie Cane.

[petroleumjelly]

Great.

Mod

: Replace me.

[petroleumjelly]

There are definite issues with the set-up here.

1.)

First, the presence of the Paranoid Gun Owner clearly warped the entire set-up of the game. I am not going to try and do research again, but I believe the last instance of a Paranoid Gun Owner in a Normal Game was approximately seven years ago, when the ruleset for Normals were very different. What didn't change, though, is the fact that Normal Games are supposed to represent what players should normally expect to see in a "normal," no frills game. A PGO I think defies those expectations. The role itself does not get to make any choices during the night, but yet the role can drastically swing the game in one direction or another depending on players act, through no fault of their own.

2.)

Second, the presence of the Paranoid Gun Owner clearly resulted in the creation of the Mafia "Passive Disabler" Role. This is a role that absolutely should not exist in a Normal Game -- period. The interactions it could have are ridiculous. As the most basic example, this role could apparently prevent Masons from night-talking (since that is a passive power), but how that could possibly be 'timed' is anybody's guess. It's also unclear whether this role would block the "Commuting" Serial Killer. As written, the SK actually has

no choice

whether they want to commute or not (which is not how a Commuter role is even supposed to work). An ability with no choice at night is a passive ability; so apparently the Mafia could similarly roleblock the passive Commuter and simultaneously kill them that night. This has all sorts of issues, and again emphasizes how much this role does not belong in a Normal game.

The Role Disabler was put in the set-up specifically to counteract the PGO. This very fact in turn makes the PGO even more anti-town than it was at the offset, as the Mafia can ignore it completely so long as the Role Disabler remains alive.

3.)

Which brings us directly to the third point. The rules explicitly state:

(20) During Night phases, players with both individual and group Night Actions can choose to perform one or the other, but not both. For example, Mafia Power Roles cannot perform both the Mafia Night Kill and their individual Role Ability.

And yet, surely in order to help the Mafia against an endgame where they are stuck with the PGO, the Role Disabler contradicts this:

You are a Passive Role Disabler. Every night, you can select a player to roleblock, and any passive abilities they have will be disabled. You cannot perform both the roleblock and the group kill, unless you are the last player alive in your faction.

This is a lie to the players of the game, which is explicitly disallowed in Normal games. I certainly hope this was an oversight.

4.)

The Mafia Win Condition indeed says that to win, the death of all other factions must at a minimum be "inevitable." Here, it was not "inevitable" that the Mafia would win. Had the Win Condition been "controlling half of the Town" (or something to that effect), this would not have been an issue, though it would further limit the chances for the SK to get a win by having "everybody" dead.

5.)

This set-up appears to be quite anti-Town on the whole. The Town essentially has to rely on the Tracker and Doctor (with the backup role) to carry them to victory; and the presence of a Serial Killer also means the Town pretty much has to hope for some cross-killing, which is something they can do very little about.

While the Tracker

was

stronger than usual in this game (because the Mafia had incentive, for example, to kill an "role disable" the same role at nights to assure a kill), it is still a very narrow role that does not even give direct guilty results (as shown here, when roflcopter was tracked but turned out to be Town).

The Strongman role counters the Doctor, and the Role Disabler role counters the PGO. This is too many "counters" to a Town with such limited ammunition. I think the set-up would have been much better if the PGO an the Role Disabler were both simply not in the game, an the Town instead had another minor power role.

~

I could go on about the actual game, but I am honestly more concerned the takeaways from the set-up (having been a Normal Game Reviewer in a past life). The two things I will say:

6.)

Lying as Town is bad. The times where it is arguably acceptable are few an far between, and were certainly not present here.

7.)

This game was Toxic with a capital "T." I would ask that those players who intentionally made the game unenjoyable for others to take a moment for some introspection. It was not an accident so many players replaced out or flaked.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

I don't think town replaced out over toxicity, besides you, PJ, but you weren't town

You're forgetting chamber, and I also think it was a partial reason for Tammy. It seems rather evident that the attitude of some players (and the constant enablement by others...) caused players to both leave and avoid the game. And while I was technically a Serial Killer, I was still trying to catch the scum just the same as the Town.

2.)

Large Normals, under the Normalcy Guidelines this game was reviewed/passed under, allow for two graylisted roles; PGO was one of them, and its counter the passive role disabler was the other.

Which also covers the second complaint.

Graylisted roles were allowed, and those roles were graylists.

"Graylist" is an iffy term, as there was certainly not a "list." The language was:

New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication.

But more importantly, the guiding principles for Normal Games also states:

These guidelines are intended to enforce common expectations of games, such that all games called "Normal" are reasonably balanced and not deviant from what one would reasonably expect in a standard game of Mafia.

->

a.)

First, PGO is a questionable "Killing" role in that it has no choice in when it kills, who it kills, or how many players it kills. The role in fact has no choices at all except for how it plays during the Day. This is not a feature of play that should be encouraged in a Normal game.

The results of having one in a game also leads to all sorts of issues. The most basic scenario are multiple deaths in a night when the PGO goes off. I don't think anybody is realistically going to think "So hm, what's a likely cause of a this? Oh yes -- a Paranoid Gun Owner!" Minds are going to go to what a "Killing" role actually

should

be; a Serial Killer, a Vigilante, or potentially a second scum group.

->

b.)

The Role Disabler is flat out bad, and there is

no chance

I would allow it to pass in any Normal Game.

The role was specifically created to counteract the PGO, a role which at best is questionable to use in the game in the first place, which is a clear red flag (for

both

roles).

The role itself is nonsense; "roleblocking" passive abilities is

not a thing

. Passive abilities include Masons/Neighbors, Millers, Encrypters, and several types of modifiers that are apparently Normal (Macho, loud, bulletproof, weak, etc.). Heck, even a Traitor is technically a "passive" role. I would even argue that the Universal Back-Up used in this game is a passive role (at least until it has gained a power; unless that power is a PGO, in which case things are just getting ridiculous).

Then there's the whole issue with what happens when a "passive" ability might also be an "activated" ability. As an in-game example: a Strongman. The Strongman ability by itself is a passive ability, but it turns into an "activated" ability once you limit the number of times it can be used in the game... and boy is

that

is a mental mess to deal with! It's still technically a passive ability that's been "turned on," so... can it still be blocked?

The fact that players would not be able to easily anticipate how a "Role Disabler" would interact with

so many

potential roles (including roles

actually

in the game) means it does not belong in a Normal Game.

Ultimately, I would even argue that "blocking" a passive role is more akin to "Vanillizing" (an ability explicitly banned in Normal Games) a role than "blocking" it. It leads to similarly incredibly misleading results. Even in instances where players

can

figure out how the role should work in retrospect (i.e., if it were lynched and the role PM were posted), that still does not excuse the fact that a Town has no way to anticipate that a role like this would be in the game to begin with.

A "Graylist" does not mean anything under the sun can "technically" be slotted into a Normal Game just so long as it it isn't "explicitly" banned. The basic tenets of Normal Games should always be the guiding force. Is this a role that players could reasonably expect in a "standard" game? Because if not, you shouldn't use it.