Mini 543 - Election Day - Game Over!

[Shanba]

Hi thar. Hi ibby. Hi hasdgfas. Don't know the rest of you lot.

Suspicions... I need to have them, I guess. So let's have a look at Holy.

I think if we concentrate on who is the most suspicious, the least suspicious will become apparent and that is who should be awarded immunity.

Good point.

FOS: Akonas

self immunity looks scummie.

Somehow true... But that kind of action seems attracting attentions, I still have a doubt that a scum would attract attention like that.

Here she says that she thinks this is somewhat true, which is not consistent with the rest of her posts, where she strongly defends Akonas' action. I'd like an explanation.

Now opie is my other suspect. opie has done little scumhunting and has been moslty engaged in theoretical discussion, but more than that, has been agreeing with others on theoretical dicussion.

I think Akonas self-vote for immunity is a bit of a null tell at the moment, I can see why both town and scum would want immunity and would try to vote for themselves. However, his OMGUS reaction does not sit right with me. He did call for random accusations and starting somewhere. The moment farside22 did so, Akonas went OMGUS which isn't really helpful. I don't know if this is enough to warrant a vote yet, but it does seem a bit suspicious.

I dislike this post as it feels overly cautious for a game where there is no consequence to the votes cast here, but that's beside the point.

Something else sticks out at me, however:

Okay, I'm not sure if I follow you Akonas. Do you have any reason to suspect farside22 and hasdgfas as a scum pair other than the fact that they are have both been suspicious of you? And if you are sure that both are scum, then why did you single out hasdgfas over farside22 for your vote?

Akonas, why would you think that the rest of us would assume you and Holy to be a pair? I can't speak for others but it is not an association I considered until you mentioned it.

These both refer to this post by Akonas:

Farside was yelling at me, even though it makes perfect sense for a townie to be voting for selfimmunity Day 1. So I don't see what y'all are complaining about.

I'm with ibaesha - I say we use votes here. It's like a safer version of regular Mafia - we can't lynch anyone until the polls open. I'm thinking BIIIIG bandwagons.

Also, keep in mind that arguments which could go either way (WIFOM) are perfectly legitimate if you're pointing out that it's not necessarily a tell either way, rather than claiming one way. It's like pointing out WIFOM in a smarter way. (Holy's argument).

Right now, I'm seeing hasdgfas and farside22 as a possible scum pair. And you all may be seeing Holy and I that way (funny how people always take sides). But we seem to be arguing something that MAKES SENSE - that's the difference.

WIFOM is one of those things that works kinda like that. Someone makes a WIFOM argument: "Scum wouldn't do X because they know that it's a bad idea."

vote: akonas
reasons: OMGUS is bad; farside has had excellent insight so far IMO, and the whole self-immunity thing.

I think the whole self-immunity thing has been discounted; it's in the interests of both town and scum. As a townie, well, it can get things riled up, get people to jump on you (either they don't realize it, or they're trying to mislead the town).

Vote:hasdgfas

.

Oh, and where is Oman? He posted in another thread; he's probably just about to post here.
VVV IF THIS ISN'T OMAN'S POST I'LL BE SUSPICIOUS. VVV

Now it seems strange to me that opie would wait two days before asking the question in the first post. The only reason I can see is that someone else brought up that point before her: Rigel. Her parroting of his point seems strage in itself, but what worries me more is hasdgfas' reaction, in which he credits opie with the point. Clearly, she is gaining credit for others work. I'm beginning to see this as a scumtell after various games.

Vote: opie

Nothing I have is strong, or definite, but it does make me queasy.

[Shanba]

Just a few words in response to Shanba. (Welcome by the way!)

opie has done

little scumhunting

and has been moslty engaged in theoretical discussion

Emphasis mine. I would just like to point out that we are only on page 4 of this thread. I'm not sure how much scum hunting is expected of me at this point. And with regards to the theoretical discussion, there are some unique and novel game mechanics involved and I think a lot of my theoretical discussion as well as others has been trying to figure out the best way to play this game.

Eh, fair enough. It just seems to me that the game should be beyond that point b now. TBH, I haven't really checked how much scumhunting others have done.

Now it seems strange to me that opie would wait two days before asking the question in the first post. The only reason I can see is that someone else brought up that point before her: Rigel. Her parroting of his point seems strage in itself, but what worries me more is hasdgfas' reaction, in which he credits opie with the point. Clearly, she is gaining credit for others work. I'm beginning to see this as a scumtell after various games.

First I'll note that I'm a

he

and not

she

. That aside, I did ask Akonas why he thought we would assume he was partners with Holy after Rigel mentioned it.

And

I did so

because

Rigel mentioned it. I don't deny that. I didn't feel that Rigel flat out asked Akonas what his reasons were. So I did. With regard to hasdgfas comment, I'm not sure how that can be considered against me. I asked a question. It piggy-backed off of Rigels comments. I didn't claim anyone elses work. Plus hasdgfas agreed with me that he didn't consider Akonas and Holy as a pair before Akonas brought it up. Which is not something Rigel said. I'm not sure how any of this is a scum tell.

The scumtell is something I've been beginning to think is a scumtell based on thigns I've seen in other games recently (unfortunately, ongoing ones - though blandville is finished and has an example of what I mean). It's taking credit for what another person does. Rigel digs up the question (which I believe is implied by his post - any reasonable respons to him requires a response to the question, so stating the question flat out seems unnecessary) and then you take credit for it by restating it in more forceful terms. My gut reaction to it was reinforced by hasdgfas then saying it was your question - not your fault, I guess, but it illustrates my conclusion fairly nicely.

My explanation is stretching a little, it's true - but by probing I feel I can open up more avenues of enquiry. I'm not too thrilled by the current conversation.

[Shanba]

Eh, fair enough. It just seems to me that the game should be beyond that point b now. TBH, I haven't really checked how much scumhunting others have done.

If that is true, then why would you criticize my scumhunting? That seems like a reckless redirection of suspicion.

And that seems like useless rhetoric. See, two can play at that game. I was comparing to other games I'd played, and my impressions as to how much scumhunting had been done in those games by this point in the day.

[Shanba]

I don't see how that is useless rhetoric:
-You said that I had done little scum hunting.
-You used that as a basis to vote for me.
-You admit that you had not checked to see how much others had done in this game.

That seems like a reckless redirection of suspicion.

This is what I was condemning as rhetoric.

Here's why I think that's reckless. When I make these types of accusations, I want to be able to stand behind them. Otherwise I'm focusing suspicion on someone who may not deserve it. And that's bad for the town. This kind of play is either sloppy or scummy.[/quote]
See, you've missed the point of what I was explaining in the last post. I've played a few games, I have preconceptions of how much scumhunting I expect to be done by a certain point. Granted, it may be different in this game, because of the mechanic's change - but that doesn't change that I get a different vibe from you than I get from, say, Holy, who does seem to be scumhunting (even though I disagree with her).

See, two can play at that game.

What game are you talking about?

The use of rhetoric. Which is what I used in my last post.

[Shanba]

TBH- I find opie's posts to be most disturbing. I realize he is one of the most prolific posters in this game, but his attack on the "lurkers" rubbed me the wrong way. Instead of just saying "I find the 5 people who posted the least to be scummiest," he could have merely asked direct questions to us to draw us into the conversation. Too often scum go after lurkers day one for an easy lynch. However, there really hasn't been much else to go on, so I can't fault him too much for lurkerhunting instead of scumhunting. Its not enough to make a case against him by any means, but since you're asking, he's my only lead right now.

By opie, do you mean farside?

[Shanba]

I like farside as town right now. OMGUT? Possibly. Don't think so though.

On Boggzie - hrm. I dunno what to make of her. Her overly apologetic and jumpy style

does

read scummy to me, but I also get strong newbie vibes which could explain it. Hrm. Hrm hrm hrm. Neutral read. Oh, Elias replaces her? Obvscum. (kidding)

I like the way opie has reacted to my pressure - I'm getting a town read from her.

has doesn't feel quite... genuine, atm. I think that's how I would describe it. Slightly suspicious of him, but more interested in seeing how he's going to react than lynching him currently.

ibby - it's hard to analyse without posts. My standard method of analysing lurkers is to check against my suspicions on other players - if I think all the active players look town, then I am more suspicious of the lurkers and the opposite holds true too. Seems a bit early for that, though, and tbh, I have no really strong feelings about anyone. Neutral.

Holy - gives me conflicting vibes. Again, it seems a bit artificial, but like I said before, she's definitely scumhunting. Eh.

Rigel - ooh, interesting. I think I've found someone else to add to my suspect list. I dislike his power role discussion early in the day, especially when taken in combination with his later injunction to start scumhunting.

Actually, that whole post

I don't think there is anyone that is worth a vote for immunity at this point.

QFT

I'd give you immunity if it wouldn't invalidate your entire point, Opie.

At this point, I think we need to focus more on who's scummy rather than on who's not. In most normal games I've played, there are people who eventually stand out as being pro-town, and once they show themselves, we can grant immunity to them. I just feel that it's a better usage of our time to discuss who is scum rather than who's not.

At this point, the big thing that I've picked up regarding this game is that people are seeming to pair off into groups, for one reason or another. Akonas has suggested two: himself and Holy, and hasdgfas and farside22. Now, whether these are organic groupings he's simply noting or arbitrary chance he's making use of is up in the air so far. But it's something to note, especially since farside commented that he didn't see Akonas and Holy as partners. Perhaps Akonas is pushing the suggestion that he and Holy are together because he knows that she is not scum, either because he is scum or through a night action such as the cop's. Regardless, it's something to look at for now that might prove to be more fruitful than randomly granting immunity to whoever sounds the smartest at this point.

is scummy. His point about immunity just reads weirdly - it's so artificial (yes I've used that word a lot today). Why even mention that you would give her immunity if you're not going to - and in fact, if you were going to give her immunity for that post, the fact that she made that post should not invalidate it, since it simply means that you

have

now found someone worthy of immunity. But this is a minor point, so moving on:

Paragraph two seems very much like filler. Yes, we want to discuss who's scum. And? Besides, discussing who is town is a natural side effect of assessing who is scummy.

His final paragraph is again, odd. it's full of phrases that undermine the case, for one, and his reluctance to commit on whether it's scummy or not when he's just been asking us to comment on what we think is scummy.

Hrm. Atm, I ould vote for Rigel in the election day thing.

[Shanba]

Akonas: I don't feel that you're playing very pro-town. There have been many instances throughout the game where you've been criticized for your actions, and you never really seem to defend yourself.

...


All in all, I'm going to have to say that, if I had to vote today, I'd vote for Akonas. None of the bandwagons seem very strong, but I'm leaning towards his simply because he's not trying to defend himself as much as hasdgfas is. However, I don't like QuietBen's few posts--he's too quiet, ironically enough, and he's not really saying much. He's also very impulsive, which I don't get a good vibe from. However, there's no solid evidence for or against his lynch, so I'm going to stick with Akonas for the time being.

This is the extent of the reasoning for your vote for Akonas. I'm not going to pretend I'm blown away.
1)He hasn't acted pro-town
2)you've been criticised and haven't really defended yourself
3)His bandwagon is stronger than hasdgfas' because hasdgfas is defending himself more
4)There is no real evidence for a Quickben lynch.

Rigel, these accusations are unsupported. Please state where you believe he hasn't acted pro-town, and which accusations he hasn't answered. Cause to me, it looks like he's put an awful lot more effort into defending himself than has has.

[Shanba]

Hm.

Now that's interesting.

I love having dead scum, it makes things so much easier.

[Shanba]

Hey Elias, mind quoting the posts you felt showed a link? Farside's read pretty town to me this game.

[Shanba]

OK, I managed to fail to finish a rered of a 12 page game. I need to work on my dedication...

[Shanba]

Urgh.

I'm not engaged in this game at all. Twice I've reached page 5...

Regardless, I may as well report my findings. Boggzie's play strikes me as distinctly scummy.

*Sigh* Why am I always without my bowl disruptor when it matters most *croaks*

I'm sure you can't reply, but anyhow- I've been in two games now with SJ, and both times you've been killed off WAY early.
::

eyes folks that were in that last game

::

pattern?

Happy Chrismahanakwanzika, everyone!

Akonas is worrying too early. This is just like the typical random voting in every game right now.

I really dislike this post, and I'm not sure why. I think it's because he might have been right about the SJ thing, given that cow was one of those players (correct me if I'm wrong). It could be an innocent comment, but it feels... like inside knowledge, I guess? I'm trying hard to put my finger on it, but I'm not quite reaching it.

Later, his panic over the immunity thing worry me too. That said, his replacement request post seems genuine to me, so I'm undecided.

The link between cow and farside seems one-sided to me. Has was buddying up to a lot of people, and especially farside. I don't think this is necessarily evidence that she is scum.

Ibby nailed has before anyone else. That probably counts for something.

[Shanba]

Well yes, somewhat, it is interesting.

[Shanba]

Um, this is a strange request, but I'm not really feeling this game at the moment, so...

does anyone want to accuse me of something? I need to be arguing to be engaged... every time I try to reread I find it deadly dull...

[Shanba]

Alright, screw re-reading. I'll just take it from here.

I could accuse you of being noncommittal, but I doubt I'd like the results that much.

Why do you not think you'll like the results? ( I have an idea, but I'd rather hear from you)

^somewhat it feels like OMGUS-ing opie, but it's not really the same, kind of weird though, lol.

I've seen it called OMGUT and OMGUR in similar situations

I would vote for Mgm because of QuickBen's past behavior. Mgm's posting so far has done nothing to dissway my scummy impression.

What specifically do you find scummy about Quickben?

Um, this is a strange request, but I'm not really feeling this game at the moment, so...

does anyone want to accuse me of something? I need to be arguing to be engaged... every time I try to reread I find it deadly dull...

Any opinion about who you would vote for why? Anyone you trust and why? These are not difficult questions to answer.

No, I don't have any opinion. My major suspect, Rigel, died last night as town. That's thrown me off my stride somewhat - I tend to need an anchor for my reads around which I can begin to get others. This is simply a function of how my mind works, and I can't seem to change it. Until I get another clear read on someone (preferably a town one) I can't really process the information, and the way I get reads is by arguing with players, or by observing wagons - neither of which have happened here.

I could reread my own posts and see who I thought was town, but they were anchored around a faulty read, so there's little point in doing that.

Shanba: You haven't done much this game. You were all fine and dandy, blasting out with cannons roaring Day 1, and then Day 2 comes around and it's like you never woke up from last night.

You nailed Boggzie earlier as well. What about Elias? Do you think he's scum?

I did hit boggzie fairly hard, but my boggzie read is inconclusive - there were also actions (s)he performed which don't read scum. And Elias? He's a tricky one. I don't trust any impressions I got while I wasn't paying attention to him. He takes great pride in his scum play.

Elias: what about the vote was scummy?

[Shanba]

In general I really dislike it when people can't reread a game, It's a cheap out and something I feel is done by people with something to hide. Very much not happy with Shanba at the moment.

Scum Shortlist:
MGM (Really, quickben, but what can ya do)
Shanba

So, I'm scum because I don't want to reread? What about Akonas, who recently stated he couldn't be bothered to read? What about MGM? Also, does the fact that I've decided to contribute anyway in no way influence this? I want the answers to these questions so I understand your thought process before I rip into this, because I see so many holes here I keeping thinking of cheese.

[Shanba]

In general I really dislike it when people can't reread a game, It's a cheap out and something I feel is done by people with something to hide. Very much not happy with Shanba at the moment.

Scum Shortlist:
MGM (Really, quickben, but what can ya do)
Shanba

So, I'm scum because I don't want to reread? What about Akonas, who recently stated he couldn't be bothered to read? What about MGM? Also, does the fact that I've decided to contribute anyway in no way influence this? I want the answers to these questions so I understand your thought process before I rip into this, because I see so many holes here I keeping thinking of cheese.

Scum? Maybe, I've seen it used a feeling out process. Suspicious? Maybe not, but it is worth noting. Annoying as hell? You are god damned right.

You've been more vocal is saying "I'm trying to reread but i just can't finish it. Tell me what I need to know" This is an attitude that I have a problem with across the board. It's not just you. Your statements stood out to me more than the others. I understand where you are coming rom, I've got a game right now I just am sturggling to get involved in. It happens to me to so I'm probably being a bit of a hypocrite, but it's one of my pet peeves, along the lines of people going "But I'll town because I say so." Just irks me pretty bad. I appreciate that you've started to contribute, or at the least want to. I also understand that your playstyle requires someone to build your thoughts around so if you choose me for that well... I can't stop ya.

About Akonas, I must have missed that post as I don't recall seeing that(Yes I notice the minefield I'm laying for myself here by saying that but I can't help it), but if that's true he'd slide up into my list as well as he was there yesterday as well.

I don't know why Farside put me down voting two people (??) and I'm far from really wanting to string you up, but with a deadline coming I feel given the game system, I should list 2-3 people I'm considering.

Right.

I don't think you're scum particularly, and no, I'm not planning on building up my reads around you. However, I'm interested in questioning you, because I do want some sort of read, even if it isn't in any way definitive, and I also want to question your logic for listing me, because I don't think it's solid. Yes, scum want to avoid discussing things, yes, scum may find it harder to re-read, but I proved yesterday that I was interested in discussing etc. and I am trying to make an effort despite the reread thing, so I don't think it really applies, because it doesn't achieve the goals that scum would want to achieve with that behaviour in these circumstances. I wonder, as you say that it's a pet peeve of yours, whether that is clouding your judgement on this matter.

Gorgon - is your opie vote only a lurker vote? If not, what are your other reasons?

[Shanba]

Shanba, you stated that you prefer to anchor your reads and that you would prefer a clear read on a town. There isn't anybody at the top of your list as to who might be town?

Not really.

Together with my latest theory and farside's last post, I think an Unvote: farside22 is in order. Farside made pretty interesting comments regarding opie and I'm going to pay that last post some close attention before I make up my mind.

Scummy post.

[Shanba]

I'm back.

I'd like thoughts as to why what amounts to be a doublevoter would be a scum role?

It looks very much like Akonas investigated quickben to me - he was hard on lurkers, and relatively soft of on QuickBen, instead asking him to contribute in increasingly annoyed sounding posts. If he had a town result on a player and that player didn't weigh in on anything, I can see him playing it that way.

Holy - Your whole argument is terrible, frankly. It assumes assumptions on top of assumptions to come to a stretched conclusion.

[Shanba]

Even without the him maybe being cleared thing, it's bad. First, it assumes politician is a scum role. Second, it then assumes that the scum were trying to save MGM by moving your vote to opie. From that it draws the conclusion that MGM is scum.

Now, think. First, I haven't checked to see the accuracy of this yet, but we had spent a lot of effort making sure everyone was accountable for their vote - i.e. they had already indicated who they would be voting for. Scum should thus know that MGM was safe already. That's a flaw in the second assumption. Another is that scum might have done it for another reason - maybe, for example, to try and draw such a response as yours.

Then there's the first assumption. Look at the nature of the vote thief/doublevoter role. For town, these are reasonably powerful roles - the doublevoter being less skill dependent than the vote thief, but both being useful, but not gamebreaking roles. Part of their power, though, comes from the fact that a proven doublevoter/vote thief is all but confirmed. Why? Because of how insanely powerful they are for scum. For scum, they essentially move the endgame one day forwards - scum need to get one less mislynch. That's very powerful, especially because, ordinarily, town are not expecting it - a doublevoter is a role you would keep hidden to catch town unawares. A town normally going into lylo is incredibly careful about quicklynches etc. If they don't realise it's lylo because of the doulevoter, well... you can see how that could be powerful. Vote thief is even worse, as it allows the scum to take away a townie's vote as well as have an extra vote. I've never seen a scum vote thief or doublevoter. I hope never to see one in a 12 player game - it might be possible in a larger game where edges like that are blurred. Rishi would know this.

[Shanba]

Why is holy look like she is scum hunting and Opie is not?

Holy attacks you. opie does not attack anyone. Even though Holy's reasoning is questionable, she's still making the effort. I also liked how she was the first to question your vote on Akonas - it indicated a willingness to be the centre of attention. Opie, in contrast, seemed often to be expanding on other's points rather than drawing fresh conclusions.

Honestly, looking back there was not a huge difference between the two, but iwaws enough to guide my very early suspicions upon replacing into the game.

However a few post later says he felt Opie town and Holy questionable. Why?

As I said in my posts before, I liked opie's response to my pressure. Her response was detailed and using good logic, so that she refuted the points against me. As for holy, you may note I already questioned her in my first post, if only marginally. Being an active scumhunter is a decent towntell, but it is not definitive, and I found other things questionable - I forget what they are, but looking back I can see things I dislike now. Do you want me to list them?

With everything said yesterday why did you vote Mgm?

I hated the way MGM backed away from you when you started pushing opie - the player who was the biggest critic of mgm at that time. It felt so badly off, given the context. I don't mind players changing their mind, but at so opportune a time. That said, now Akonas has come up cop and seems to have inved mgm, it looks like I was wrong.

[Shanba]

Quoted Mgm, "Scummy post", he said. Really? Mgm is scummy, but that post showed you if he might be scum? I don't think so.

That post rung all sorts of alarm bells in my head. I've explained why already in my response to farside:

I hated the way MGM backed away from you when you started pushing opie - the player who was the biggest critic of mgm at that time. It felt so badly off, given the context. I don't mind players changing their mind, but at so opportune a time. That said, now Akonas has come up cop and seems to have inved mgm, it looks like I was wrong.

MGM was attacking farside and opie was attacking MGM. Farside made a post saying she was suspicious of opie. MGM then says something along the lines of "yes, that is a good point, maybe opie

is

more suspicious than you." It's so incredibly convenient. Yes, that one post was enough to convince me. It's a bit like in Civ IV, where you get + and - for various actions. Up to then, our relations had been neutral, but that was like a declaration of war, brining him down to annoyed (but not yet furious - that would have required a longer interaction.)

Yes I would like to see a list of reason's.
Thank you for your response.

I hate the decisive/indecisive thing she does. She decisively votes farside, but constantly undermines herself by suggesting, for example,the vote was a pressure vote. She also continually undermines herself with WIFOM (I've never seen this before, tbh - I've seen people undermine themselves, and I've seen people undermine others with WIFOM, but I've never seen it used in such a way before. It's certainly interesting.) Also in retrospect, this namedrop is interesting -

Rolling Eyes Well, farside22 is the most active scumhunter, but other active players did it quite well too (i.e. opie, hasdgfas, Akonas).

We know that opie and Akonas were town - have you ever heard of the idea that scum will have one out of three of their suspects as a scumpartner? It's remarkably accurate. I wonder whether the same is true here.

BTW, Holy, where are you from?

[Shanba]

Plus second question is what are your thoughts on Gorgon and Shanba who have been less then ideal in scum hunting?

Do you mean in efforts or results?

[Shanba]

Hi guys, I got prodded twice, sorry about the inactivity.

Qman, Holy - are either of you actually going to be convinced of my innocence/scumminess by arguing with each other? If not, there's no point arguing and it will simply act as a smokescreen.

Skruffs - what is hmmworthy?

Holy - if you were to lynch me and I turned up town, who would be your next top suspect? How likely do you think that is? How confident are you that MGM is indeed clear? What about a godfather roleHi guys, I got prodded twice, sorry about the inactivity.

Qman, Holy - are either of you actually going to be convinced of my innocence/scumminess by arguing with each other? If not, there's no point arguing and it will simply act as a smokescreen.

Skruffs - what is hmmworthy? Are you scum? If so, how dare you betray me!

Actually, considering I'll probably end up at your throat regardless, you may as well be scum...

Holy - if you were to lynch me and I turned up town, who would be your next top suspect? How likely do you think that is? How confident are you that MGM is indeed clear? What about a godfather role?

Fonz - you said Elias played a pro-town game. What did he do that was pro-town? How do you think Qman's argument with Holy works with your assessment of his play? Why are you not pseudo-voting yourself?