Mini 567 - iPick - Game Over: The Stunning Conclusion

[Paradoxombie]

On a scale of 1-10, how bastardly do you want the game to be (10 = evil)?

6

On a scale of 1-10, how complex/unbalanced are you comfortable with roles being (10=lol)?

6

Rank these themes, in order from best to worst:
Existentialism
Things that don’t make sense
Pokemon, Digimon, & Harry Potter
Historical Disfigurements
Literary Characters
Authority Figures

Any other themes you might want to see come into play? Any specific roles/types of roles you want to see in play? Any game mechanics? Want lots of flavor? None? I may completely ignore this, but any public expectations you have for this game, make them known here, and I'll ignore them, or if you are lucky, take them into account .

I'd like interesting deadline mechanics.

[Paradoxombie]

I gotta say, I don't trust Adel's private question answers. She put a 1 for the alignment question but couldn't she very easily PM a real set of private answers, maybe putting 10 for that? Seems like an early attempt to gain the future town's trust. Same goes for her putting 9 for being comfortable ith a post restriction, couldn't that be a prospective mafia's excuse to lurk?

FOS

[Paradoxombie]

I only looked for anything worth mentioning, and I thought posting private answers publicly is something that can be used to manipulate opinions. I think that seems more likely than someone doing it just for the hell of it.

And in repsonse to volkan: paranoia has been encouraged by the mod and I don't see anything better to discuss.

[Paradoxombie]

Why in the world would you feel confident Adel doesn't have a role, but I could?

[Paradoxombie]

For the record, I'm inclined to agree that if we get stuck, deadlined, or deadlocked, a massclaim

could

be very beneficial. But I think part of it depends on how we play from here.

in the meantime:

Vote: Adel

for being against massclaiming and for posting her private answers publicly. Does

your

role make sense? (don't answer, it's just my newly adopted motto)

[Paradoxombie]

I'll answer if you answer a question of mine. Why did you ignore the first 5 people who voted before me?

[Paradoxombie]

How exactly does Adel opposing a massclaim make her scum?

I guess the same dynamic that makes rougeben scum for not participating pre-game[/sarcasm]. I think it's only fair if Adel would vote someone for disagreeing with her(or rather agreeing with scum) that she accept being voted for the same reasoning. I'd rather not say why I support a massclaim, atm.

[Paradoxombie]

Who said Adel voted because somebody disagrees with her?

I said she did. Based on this post:

i'm against massclaiming.

vote:xyzzy

for suggesting it.

Could it have been that she voted because somebody was doing something scummy?

I'm sure from her perspective it could appear that way.

How does saying "Well... it's OK for me to vote her because she voted somebody else." justify anything?

Because my response was an equal and opposite reaction

It still fails to explain why her actions were suspicious and is expressly hypocritical.

How is it hypocritical?

Either way, you can't even claim you're following the "same reasoning" because reasoning isn't even involved in your post!

And there's none in Adel's either, hence: the same.

You restrict voting to the abstract, but in actuality Adel voted somebody for a reason (supporting a massclaim), and the reason you're voting (objecting to a massclaim) is the

exact opposite

. How could you possibly equate the two?

They are equal; equal and opposite. How can you possibly say they are not equal? Why is it fair to vote for having one opinion, but not for having the other?

If you're not willing to back something up. Don't say it.

Why? You're the one treating things abstractly now. Just because I can't supply reasons for my thinking, my thoughts must now be arbitrary, random, or meaningless? It seems more like scum thinking to always worry about "backing up" everything you say. I have an actual opinion.



In other news: wouldn't it be wise to first ask the mod if the extra vote was a mistake?

[Paradoxombie]

How is it hypocritical?

You voted Adel, no? A vote is a bad thing. It is a thing that says "I want to lynch you". You were saying it was OK to vote Adel because she voted xyzzy. If it were simply expressed in terms of retribution, it would simply be a case of "eye for an eye", barbaric but somewhat acceptable. Instead you are justifying the thing you did by saying that you're doing it to a person who did the exact same thing. That is hypocrisy.

I still don't see the hypocrisy here. Where did I say an action was bad and did it myself?

Why is it fair to vote for having one opinion, but not for having the other?

Seriously?

Did you seriously ask that question?

We've already been over this. One opinion is scummy, it is dificult to explain with logic why it is good for the town. The other opinion mades a degree of sense. If you want to make the assertion that all opinions are equally allowable, why are you even playing Mafia?

I didn't say it was equally allowable, but why are you attacking me for acting on my belief rather than for having the belief itself? It seems like a distraction to keep going back to my vote, when your real problem is obviously with my opinion. You think my opinion is wrong, so of course you're going to think my action based on that opinion is wrong.

I don't like to speak for Adel at length, but couldn't it be possible that it was the scumminess of xyzzy's opinion, not the fact that it was different from hers that caused her to vote?

It's scummy to her BECAUSE she disagrees with Xyzzy about what's in the town's best interest. It's likewise perfectly reasonable for me to find her scummy for disagreeing with me about what's in the town's best interest. If anything is unreasonable it would be the opinion and not the action, for either of us.

[Paradoxombie]

I still don't see the hypocrisy here. Where did I say an action was bad and did it myself?

It all depends on the understood connotation of a vote which you seem to dismiss at will. Except under clearly defined circumstances, a vote symbolizes

at least

suspicion of being scum. You voted Adel and therefore suspected her of being scum. Why? Because she opposed a massclaim. That was fine (if wrong); I didn't call that hypocrisy, but when you tried to justify that vote further by saying that Adel voted xyzzy. You called Adel scummy for voting xyzzy, yet voted her yourself making yourself scummy by your own standards. Now, that isn't particuarly aggregious, but it's easy to do something scummy by your own standards when your standards for scumminess are so all-encompassing. In large part, it was those wide, undiscrimnating standards for scummy behavior (voting a player) that I was pointing out.

I didn't say I found her scummy for voting Xyzzy, though I see how what I said could be taken that way. What I meant to communicate was that I probably would not have voted her had not she and several other players voted already over this disagreement about a massclaim. My opinion would be the same, but, inspired by the recent crossfire, I decided to jump into the ring. Another thing that influenced me was how early we are in the game, where there is some danger of slowdown and players often vote over less significant matters than later in the game.

Paradox please answer the quesition. How is a D1 mass claim at all beneficial to the town in a set up where there is nothing to anchor roles on?

I don't think we should massclaim day 1, but why are you so sure there's nothing to anchor the roles on? Unless you know more than one.

Paradox. Can you please answer the question about how a massclaim WILL be beneficial for the town?

I don't know how it WILL be anything, because alot of it depends on randomness and the imaginations of several people. Your question makes it seem like I guarenteed a massclaim would work out or tried to convince other players it was the best option. I can concieve of ways it could work out in the town's favor, but there's no assurances any of them will happen or even actually could happen. But I have very little data to work with, and I like taking chances. I don't presume to have the correct opinion, but atm it's the one I have.

[Paradoxombie]

Paradox - that question could have been answered in many ways. I don't think the way he did it was particularly pro-town. (Refused to commit to anything in particular).

I'm interested in what kind of commitment you'd expect from me or what kind of answer might've satisfied you. I am only interested because of the "many ways" you reference. As if the fact that I chose the road less traveled and the least popular opinion is somehow in my interest. So what's a more protown way of expressing myself, exactly? If it's just my opinion presented in a different way, then how is it somehow more protown even though it's still fundamentally what I said? If it involves actually changing my opinion, do you think warping my opinion to please the town makes me more protown?

I don't like the way he has voted adel for saying that a mass-claim would be bad NOW, when he can't give any reason why it would be good now and states that we probably shouldn't mass-claim day one. Yay for contradiction.

I never said a massclaim would be a good idea now. I don't think I've ever suggested that in the slightest. I haven't changed my opinion, but I take note of how you warp my words. You say Adel only disapproved of a massclaim for right now, but I've never heard her express that:

I propose a massclaim at some point. We'll lynch whoever has the most normal role.

i'm against massclaiming.

vote:xyzzy

for suggesting it.

@ Paradox: If you don't think that mass-claim is a viable option for day one, then why are you voting adel for having the same thought?

Adel never said she was against day one massclaiming. She said: "I'm against massclaiming"

Xyzzy never mentioned a day 1 time frame. Adel voted him and said she was against a massclaim. It seems as though adel is just generally against massclaiming.

@ Adel: Do you think that massclaiming is likely to be a viable strategy at any time in this game? And would you support it?

@ Adel: Do you think that massclaiming is likely to be a viable strategy at any time in this game? And would you support it?

Mass claiming will probably be viable on day 3, possibly on day 2 if a more than 2 players die tonight. The scum gain the advantage of knowing which targets are the most attractive and what kind of protective powers they are up against from a massclaim. By waiting we mitigate that gain for scum.

WTF?

i'm against massclaiming.

vote:xyzzy

for suggesting it.

!!!!


In conclusion, if anyone is backpeadling here, it's Adel who only now claifies that she is only against massclaiming ON DAY 1. If anyone is jumping to conclusions about players, it's adel or rougeben or shaft.ed for assuming Xyzzy or myself are suggesting massclaim for right now, or rougeben somehow knowing that Adel only meant day 1 when she clearly stated she was simply "against massclaiming". If anyone is being hypocritical, it's adel voting me,

without the slightest explination.

Apperently pure OMGUS except the vague insinuation that I need to build a better case, when her case against Xyzzy and Me seems to be based on the exact same principle as mine against her which could be written as: "If I think a player's opinion coincides with what benefits scum, that player is scummy". She voted Xyzzy because he supported a massclaim and she thought/thinks a massclaim benefitted scum. I voted her because she was against a massclaim, and I thought/think that a massclaim benefits the town. There is much in common between our votes, a fact which NabNab firmly denies.

There's something I don't like about rougeben. He takes Adel's statement "I'm against massclaiming" and somehow interprets "I'm against massclaiming

day 1

." Then he takes my statement "I'm for massclaiming" to mean "I'm for massclaiming

day 1

". It's the same mistake, so it's understandable, but it's possible that it wasn't a mistake, and rougeben is purposely making my argument look worse and Adel's argument better(which coincide with his stated opinions).

[Paradoxombie]

In response to rougeben, I don't see any difference between being against the town and being for scum. What about lurkers? They aren't clearly benefiting scum directly, but they're still seen as scummy because what they're doing doesn't have the town's interests in mind.

Para: when the first thing that someone says is "I propose a mass claim" who

wouldn't

assume they meant immediately, or during day 1?

I'd agree with you on this, except Xyzzy didn't just say "I support a massclaim". He said:

I propose a massclaim

at some point.

Why would he say "at some point" if he intended a particular time? Had simply said "I propose a massclaim" that would be more ambiguous, because although the time still isn't clear, it's still possible that a certain time(i.e. now) is implied. With "at some point" the statement becomes, ironically, less ambiguous, by showing that any ambiguousness about the time is intentional.

I don't think we should massclaim day 1, but why are you so sure there's nothing to anchor the roles on? Unless you know more than one.

Yeah this is a really tangible theme to anchor roles onto:

Things that don’t make sense will be our main theme... If something makes sense, be wary.

Historical Disfigurements figures to be a prominent secondary element...

And Existentialism will no doubt play a part -- when has Existentialism ever made sense anyway?

Authority Figures, Pokemon, Digimon, & Harry Potter, and Literary Characters didn't make the cut explicitly, though I would not be surprised if some or all of them wove their way into the game.

And you can bet that some themes not disclosed by me or suggested by you will have a great bearing on this game's outcome...

But that is not the true theme of this game. The real theme is Ipick, so at a minimum, the roles were selected or generated by the mod. This means they do have something in common, even if the roles were virtually random, there is some scheme. In addition, I will not take everything the mod says as absolute truth, especially this post, which was 5 days before the game actually started, during a time when the roles were still being made.

Ina regular game, scum already know the general scheme of the game, and what kinds of claims are reasonable. The beauty of this game, is that there are no standards beyond the limits of Guardians imagination, which is something scum cannot possibly predict, until a certain number of roles are revealed. Hopefully, there will be some point when we see some theme or concept, even if that is randomness, between the roles.

If we are lucky, scum may be forced to claim before this point, and we may catch them if say, they claim something totally random and we later see that there is some complex or fundamental similarity between roles. And there are levels of randomness:

List 1 Elephant, cardboard box, news anchor, Jet fighter, cheerleader
List 2 The letter Q, sound, Poverty, Michael Jackson, Alien Spider-clone

List 1 is clearly less random than List 2, although the actual difference is hard to articulate. Now, the more random list overlaps the less random list, but if a List 2 role shows up in list 1, it stands out to some degree. Additionally an outlier role may show up as town, but scum may use this claim to craft their own claim. Observe this series of claims chronologically:

Claim 1. Elephant
Claim 2. Sound
Claim 3. Poverty
Claim 4. Jet Fighter
Claim 5. news anchor
Claim 6. cheerleader
Claim 7. cardboard box

Claim 2 and 3 are somewhat unlike the others(being non-physical), but we may infer that claim 3 based their claim on Claim 2 to some extent. This, admittedly, doesn't prove much, but if Claim 3's player is already suspected, this adds to the case against that player. If Claim 3's player dies and comes up scum, this retroactively makes Claim 2 less scummy, because scum are simply more likely to try to imitate town than scum.

These same dynamics apply to other aspects of our roles, but I chose names because I think full roles would have even more aspects to compare and contast.

It's still totally possible that the roles don't allow for this kind of entrapment, or that the order of claims is favorable to scum, but I think I've demonstrated that there may be outcomes that benefit town, which was what Shaft.ed originally asked for.

[Paradoxombie]

Paradox, while I generally agree with you and have a townish vibe from your early posting, you take a hell of a lot of words to make your point. Re-reading you is going to be a bitch. Do you purposefully do this, or is it just your posting style?

I don't think about how much I am going to write when I make a post. But I don't see how using less words would've made my point any clearer.

Claim 1. W
Claim 2. I
Claim 3. F
Claim 4. O
Claim 5. M

@Paradoxombie: If that was your explanation for why a massclaim could benefit the town, why didn't you share pages ago?

I think the reason is obvious, and you indicate it yourself in this same quote. The more I explain what will be scummy, the harder scum will try to avoid those pitfalls.


I'd support a nameclaim at anytime. And I would note that it becomes less useful the longer we delay.

Cicero, I'm interested in why you think the Mod still hasn't completed the game? Also, your opinion that people's names might give up clues about their role seems off. We all have roles, so couldn't a player who felt their name gave away something simply state that for themselves? Xtoxm has already admitted his role has nothing to do with his name and I'm willing to admit the same.

You seem to imagine only negative possibilities, when surely you can just as easily imagine positive possibilities in the fashion I did. You seem to believe that scum may have fakeclaims. I'm not sure how common that is, but if the mod was warning us against claiming as you, yourself, interpreted, isn't that a potential sign?

[Paradoxombie]

Xtoxm has already admitted his role has nothing to do with his name and I'm willing to admit the same.

I am so glad that I am voting for you right now.

Why? And why did you say nothing when Xtoxm did the exact same thing?!

[Paradoxombie]

That might be reasonable if your rolename DID have something to do with your role.

[Paradoxombie]

EBWOP

That might be reasonable if your rolename DID have something to do with your role,

which I doubt

.

[Paradoxombie]

I think the reason is obvious, and you indicate it yourself in this same quote. The more I explain what will be scummy, the harder scum will try to avoid those pitfalls.

So this has nothing to do with the role-related reason you intimated earlier?

When, exactly?

[Paradoxombie]

I'm feel the need to mention that I didn't advocate a nameclaim originally, and I didn't especially advocate one now. I simply have no problem with one, and won't accept poor reasoning against it. I say this because I feel like someone will try to blame me if something does go wrong, since it may appear that I'm arguing intensely for it.

Para's reasons for the claim were fairly optimistic (the idea of scum appearing to mimic). I think it's probably more likely that a mass rolename claim would not have such a potent effect.

You say cicero convinced you, yet his arguments are just as pessimistic as mine are optimistic, if not moreso. I mean how likely is a role which can do something once they know your role name?(as cicero suggested)

For that reason, the potential for a serious information leak that Cicero raises needs to take priority.

I'll bring up the point once again, but couldn't anybody whose name had to do with they're role simply tell us this? I don't get why people have to worry for them when we aren't sure they exist. Though I guess scum could lie and say their's did.(not that I'll assume that)


This rule 9.75 intrigues me, but the number of people who requested a bastardly game has made me extremely wary of trusting everything the Mod says. It's the best argument against a nameclaim so far, imo, but I'd still be willing to proceed.

[Paradoxombie]

With 11.11 posts per day, you'd think cicero would have the chance to repond to my questions.

And Xyzzy is seriously lurking. 2 posts? Come on.

Unvote, Vote:Xyzzy

[Paradoxombie]

These:

Cicero, I'm interested in why you think the Mod still hasn't completed the game? Also, your opinion that people's names might give up clues about their role seems off. We all have roles, so couldn't a player who felt their name gave away something simply state that for themselves? Xtoxm has already admitted his role has nothing to do with his name and I'm willing to admit the same.

You seem to imagine only negative possibilities, when surely you can just as easily imagine positive possibilities in the fashion I did. You seem to believe that scum may have fakeclaims. I'm not sure how common that is, but if the mod was warning us against claiming as you, yourself, interpreted, isn't that a potential sign?

[Paradoxombie]

I find Xtoxm's post just to tell us he's not going to watch the game anymore very suspicious. It seems like just a planned lurking tactic.

Maybe adel is scum with xtoxm. That would explain their play somewhat in my eyes.

I still don't understand what an OSV kill is.

[Paradoxombie]

I disagree here.

He has declared an intention not to leave the game.

Lurking usually involves some degree of posting (eg. "I'm here and finding it hard to keep up"). More likely, he will either play as normal, or not play at all. His actions here give him no justification for lurking, and if he attempts to get by without posting, he will be replaced.

Xtoxm is not lurking

nor did he ever declare the intention to lurk.

As far as he knew, he was dead. If anything, he quit.

First of all, I think it'd be ridiculous for someone to present any INTENTION to lurk.

Volkan, you say his actions give no justification for lurking. But he's not here! He's no posting! How is that any different than lurking? And yet you're not holding it against him. He'll probably show up again after a prod, but he still get's like 72hrs where he has an excuse to not post.

I don't think Xtoxm is as stupid as you guys seem to think. I think he's playing on your perceptions of his stupidity so he can just disappear for awhile. What kind of person leaves a game before the mod even posts their death? Especially in a game as warped as this one, I'd wait to make sure nothing unusual happens. And I don't think it's the norm to say that you're removing the game from your watched topics. That's what makes me think Xtoxm is trying to mislead us.

To say as far as Xtoxm knew, he was dead doesn't make sense. Until the mod tells you, as far as you know, you're alive.

Lawrencelot, if you are considering the Xtoxm Adel scumteam, then it's believeable that Xtoxm has acted stupid on purpose, and the fact that he's done it so much regarding Adel is what makes them both suspect. It would explain why Adel called xtoxm a VI, trying to justify his scumminess.


I think there is more method to Xtoxm's madness than some are willing to believe.

Unvote Vote: Xtoxm

I'll be interested in what he has to say when he gets back.

[Paradoxombie]

What if he is just stupid, saw daykill and didn't think that it could be a ruse. I think this is more likely than him saying "Bye guys, I'm taking this off my watched list", and then reading along, just to get a few days worth of lurking.

Well, why do you think would Xtoxm felt the need to tell us he wasn't looking at the game anymore, unless he already expected that he might be needed?

I don't think Xtoxm is stupid enough to assume he's dead before the mod posts, but smart enough to mention that he's no longer paying attention, just in case he should be.

[Paradoxombie]

@Paradoxombie: You should know better than to play around with "he's smarter than he looks" considering that the benifit of the doubt is the only thing keeping your neck out of the noose.

That sounds like a threat. Am I still being lynched for having an interest in a massclaim?

Paradox, why do you feel the need to create this lurking argument? Yet at the same time hasdagas hasn't posted in six days and Rogueben has one post in the last six days yet no mention from you.

vote: Paradoxombie

I'm not so worried about the actual lurking as much as how clearly contrived his actions appear. Why do I feel the need to make the argument? I don't see much else to talk about besides Xtoxm. I think your vote on me is equally unsubstantiated. I have mentally noted rougeben's lurking, but I did not notice Hasdgfas's. I didn't mention them because my interest is finding scum and not getting people to start posting more, and I haven't noticed any evidence their lurking is a tactic.

This entire post just seems a bit off to me. Paradox, have you ever played with Xtoxm before? This is how he plays all the time. I don't think he expected a fake dayvig because I don't think he's seen that before. I feel you're giving him too much credit and trying to get an easy lynch.

I'm in another game with him now, and I have been in 1 or 2 previously. I don't think you're giving Xtoxm

enough

credit. Xtoxm has more posts than I do, and I'm the one who didn't even know what an OSV was. I can't believe you're accusing me of trying to get an easy lynch when my reasoning is totally unlike anyone elses and when so many think Xtoxm is town.

I didn't realize we were so close to deadline, however. I really don't have any major suspects at the moment, and assuming Xtoxm doesn't act incredibly scummy on his return, I will most likely unvote.

[Paradoxombie]

You've seen Xtoxm's aggregated play here - you couldn't tenably argue that he is a fully competent player. He might be scum, sure, but so far all we have seen just looks like ordinary stupidity from someone who doesn't have a clue what they are doing.

I don't think someone with 1000+ in game posts can truly not know what they are doing. I agree he's incompetent, but I think this is below his level.

Why do you ignore the possibility that his "I'm not going to read the thread anymore" was just him expressing frustration at what seems to have looked to him like a quick day-vigging?

I don't ignore the possiblity. But I don't think Xtoxm was venting when he said he wasn't going to read. If you're already dead, how does saying youre not going to read express anger? It's clear that Xtoxm intended his previous post to be his last words, but afterwards he felt the need to add that he wasn't reading.

Now why would a player go out of their way to indicate they aren't reading, unless they think people will expect them to be reading later?


Anyway appaently I'm dead. I guess I'll take the game off me watched topics list. Later.

[Paradoxombie]

I'll claim if someone will present a case on me.

[Paradoxombie]

well I guess there's no one better to go after anyway.


I'm Neville Longbottom. Some sort of doctor.


Now will someone please hammer me?!

[Paradoxombie]

oh yes, I have information. Whoever controls the wind is a protown player. Or so I'm told.

[Paradoxombie]

5 paragraphs:

1 giving my rolename
1 listing a power
1 listing another power
1 giving info
1 listing my win condition(there may be werewolves or cultists, btw)

[Paradoxombie]

Paradox - Can you paraphrase how you protect people as Neville. I can't see Neville as a doctor at all.

The only differences are that I die if I target any antitown faction and my power doesn't work if I'm protected by someone else.

Para, do you think there's a good chance that there is an SK or survivor in this game, if there are no werewolves or cults?

Yeah, or maybe a Jester. Based on the number of players, I don't know how hard it would be to implement multiple antitown teams, but I'd bet the Gaurdian couldn't pass up puting some kind of Jester in here.


Anyway, Lawrencelot, why are you voting Has?

[Paradoxombie]

So does he still know what he's doing paradox?

I don't know, but I'd expect him to act the way he is now either way.

Unvote, Vote: Adel

I don't like her habit of not explaining herself, and I don't like her tactics regarding Xtoxm. Not sure if she's scum, but I think she's scummy, and deadline nears.

[Paradoxombie]

So does he still know what he's doing paradox?

I don't know, but I'd expect him to act the way he is now either way.

Unvote, Vote: Adel

I don't like her habit of not explaining herself, and I don't like her tactics regarding Xtoxm. Not sure if she's scum, but I think she's scummy, and deadline nears.

Out of curiosity para, have you ever played with adel before?

Yes.

[Paradoxombie]

PX, I don't like her tactics regarding me either, I think Adel would be a good lynch too.

Why don't you like Adel's tactics to the point of thinking she is a good lynch?

If that question is directed at me as well, my answer is because there's a deadline in 3 days.

[Paradoxombie]

Mini 488 I believe.

[Paradoxombie]

switching to one of these three, whichever has the most votes.

Going back a bit, I really don't like this.

[Paradoxombie]

the vote was because I thought you didn't believe Para's role at all. How sure are you that Para is lying/speaking the truth?

I'm not sure either way, to be honest. I still want clarification on what Para means when he said "some kind of doctor." That can mean any number of different things, and because he claimed doctor, some people don't want to lynch him. I still want him to answer that question, because he seems to have ignored it in all posts since the question, which doesn't make me feel any better about him.

I've already said everything there is to my role. There's nothing left to clarify.

the vote was because I thought you didn't believe Para's role at all. How sure are you that Para is lying/speaking the truth?

I'm not sure either way, to be honest. I still want clarification on what Para means when he said "some kind of doctor." That can mean any number of different things, and because he claimed doctor, some people don't want to lynch him. I still want him to answer that question, because he seems to have ignored it in all posts since the question, which doesn't make me feel any better about him.

@Para: Doctor was not prefaced with "Mafia" by any chance, was it?

No.

[Paradoxombie]

what did you learn from 488?

I don't know what you mean. Here's 488:

5 paragraphs:

1 giving my rolename
1 listing a power
1 listing another power
1 giving info
1 listing my win condition(there may be werewolves or cultists, btw)

I don't know what you are refferring to, unless it's the info/hint I got, which I already said in 485.


What exactly is the case agaist Lawrencelot? I don't think I can blame him for only having vague, intangible suspicions based on how the day went.

[Paradoxombie]

Oh I see.

what did you learn from 488?

I don't think I was in it for very long, so not much.

[Paradoxombie]

Well I'm entirely dissatisfied with Xyzzy's posting. I'll admit I forgot about him after I started being attacked, but with his rate of posting it's no surprise. I see virtually no content on his part, and definitely no scumhunting of any sort. I think it's ironic that Shaft.ed hunch voted xyzzy, because at this point I think xyzzy has the most substantiated case against him. There's no denying he isn't/wasn't lurking, and his own posts self-referrence that he was.

Unvote, Vote: xyzzy

The nice thing is that he has some interactions with other players, so, unlike some lurker lynches, there will be somewhere to go from tommorow.


@Volkan, I note that you have been doing mostly interrogation recently, scrutinizing everyone's thoughts, but have largely kept your own opinion to yourself. And looking at your posting record, it's essentially nonexistent(which is no good). Exactly what is your thinking? Don't you think it's about time you voted someone? It seems like you lack any central focus and could easily jump onto any wagon at this point(though you're certainly not the only one). Are you waiting for a wagon to form before you vote?

[Paradoxombie]

Volkan, is your vote still on Shaft.ed for any purpose other than wanting to see if you had a normal vote?

[Paradoxombie]

I'll simply unvote if nothing changes before deadline(though that is unlikely). I don't like how these mechanics put preassure on voters to have a majority so long before deadline.

[Paradoxombie]

hmm, I missed 603 and 604 when I typed 605

[Paradoxombie]

@ Volkan, then why did you vote Shaft.ed?

[Paradoxombie]

@ Xyzzy, I don't remember your previous nameclaim you mention, could you point it out?

@ Lawrencelot, what is the meaning of your reference to DGB's alignment?

I previously was interested in Xyzzy over Rogueben because although they had both been lurking, RB had more actual content. In light of his previous and present bandwagoning I can see a better case against RB. Partly because I'd prefer to lynch over more than just lurking.

I still think that Para could be fake claiming. If people aren't willing to string him up though we need to find another viable target soon.

I will not be voting for Adel, NabNab, Vollkan, cicero or shaft.ed today.

I think our best bit of hitting scum now (besides Paradox) is actually Lawrencelot. His Post 527 leaves himself plenty of opportunities of people to vote, has no semblance of scum-hunting and dodges previous questions to him.

For the moment I will leave my vote on Para because I still think he is the best lynch. However I will

FoS: Lawrencelot

Note the underlined part. It seems a hypocritical to go after Lawrencelot for leaving open opportunities to vote people, when he's basically doing the same by listing who he won't vote(therefore implying he'll vote for anyone else[as confirmed by his vote on xyzzy]). He's actually opening himself to far more than Lawrencelot who listed 3 wagons of preference.

I'll

Unvote, Vote: Rogueben

[Paradoxombie]

I don't like Adel's Fos.

[Paradoxombie]

I don't see how my vote could be any weaker than your vote on Xyzzy, Rogueben.

[Paradoxombie]

I don't see how my vote could be any weaker than your vote on Xyzzy, Rogueben.

What do you mean?

It seems hypocritical that rogueben calls my vote weak when his vote on Xyzzy had absolutely no substance. How could his vote, made solely to prevent a no-lynch, be excusable when my vote on him had actual reasoning to back it and was closer to deadline?

I certainly wasn't sure you were scum and I never pretended to be. Is that what makes my vote weak?

[Paradoxombie]

Well you voted Xyzzy and said you were only doing it "in the interest of preventing a no-lynch". So I surmised that you must be willing to vote anybody, because there was no evidence that you had any other reasoning to your vote. You hadn't mentioned Xyzzy since the very begining of the game after all.

[Paradoxombie]

That certainly doesn't make sense.

[Paradoxombie]

I really don't like how Lawrencelot is basing his actions off other player's opinions. And I don't like Shaft.ed's role directing.

[Paradoxombie]

So I guess existentialists are antitown?

Well, Shaft.ed is town.

[Paradoxombie]

It's either a pretty clever joke or a post restriction(that is a joke).

[Paradoxombie]

also Hasd, Nab wasn't post restricted, he was a "post restriction doctor", as in one who protects from post restrictions. Or at least that's how I read it. Sounds like the counter to the post restriction giver.

[Paradoxombie]

We should mass name claim. I'm sure scum have fake claims, but now seems like an appropriate time to do so. Any time today will work. Then we can full claim tomorrow or later.

I'm not so sure, because if exitentialists are antitown, volkan's rolename isn't any different from nab's. They seem like historical diseases, idk if they're meant to be disfigurments. But it

seems

like scum don't even need fakeclaims. On the other hand they both had post restriction related roles so maybe there is something. But that wouldn't tell us alignment, and might reveal roles for scum. So i'm against it for now.

[Paradoxombie]

Shaft.ed's posts are haiku. I'm guessing it has something to do with his restriction. I also note both posts have a line about scum and a line about nibbler.

[Paradoxombie]

Ok then. Assuming I understand shaft.ed, I guess we should nameclaim.

[Paradoxombie]

Ok then i don't we shouldn't nameclaim...again.


Xtoxm what made you decide to kill volkan?

[Paradoxombie]

Notice how NN died by choking on Gillyweed.

Gillyweed is something that could easily be used by Neville Longbottom.

In addition,

HoS: paradoxombie

Yes, the hand. Flipping around your views on nameclaiming because of one person's opinion? No. No. No. Again I say no. What terrible, horrible, no good, very bad play.

Shaft.ed is confirmed town to me and he has previously shown outside knowledge of players. It's no different than voting based on a claimed cop's results. And in case you'd like to upgrade to a vote, here's more: I would be voting Xyzzy right now if Shaft.ed didn't say he was town.

A question, if you suspect me for that would you suspect Shaft.ed as my partner? Or do you think I really always wanted a nameclaim and just BSed my whole explination against it in order to flipflop?

Also:
Where were you when Lawrencelot saved RB(Rogueben, not roleblocker, Xyzzy) solely because shaft.ed said he was town? Because you certainly weren't so outspoken then.

And I seriously don't like how you asked for everyone's opinion about Xyzzy's suggestion without giving your own. And you still haven't. I mean it must be awfully easy to not change your opinion when you never give one. Now tell me, do you think a player asking for opinions without giving their own is scummy?

Notice how NN died by choking on Gillyweed.

Makes me believe rule 9.75 a bit more and PX a bit less...And there do seems to be a lot of doc's...

vote Paradox

.

Why do you believe the rule more now? Because I see nothing that confirms it any further.

Why did you think Volkan was scum? Please be as detailed as possible in your thinking.

Who did you protect last night?



Adel, I demand to know everything I've done today that you think is scummy. Because it'd be really easy for me to seem more protown if, rather than speculate and ask questions, I just voted someone with no explination. Specifically I'd like to know how my first 4 posts today were scum-like.

Seriously, if nobody appreciates what I have to say, I may follow Xyzzy and Adel's lead.

[Paradoxombie]

Seriously, if nobody appreciates what I have to say, I may follow Xyzzy and Adel's lead.

Huh? What's this supposed to mean?

It mean's less posting on my part. Nothing personal. I'm not offended or anything.

[Paradoxombie]

Your view has changed significantly since twilight yesterday. While that may be slightly because of your role results, what do you think about Lawrencelot's action now that you're 95% sure that shaft is town? I would like to know, because you seem to be siding with Lawrencelot now.

I don't like anybody trusting a player based on a single day's read. But there seems to be alot of inside info around, in addition to us all being powerroles, so I'm not going to read into it anywhere near as much as I would in a normal game. I only brought it up because you didn't mention Lawrencelot at all when he gave no explination, but jumped on me when I think I had a fairly reasonable one.

[Paradoxombie]

Paradoxombie
Why am I a confirmed town
Nibbler's breathe is sweet

because I protected you last night, and I would be dead if you were scum.

[Paradoxombie]

Paradoxombie
Why am I a confirmed town
Nibbler's breathe is sweet

because I protected you last night, and I would be dead if you were scum.

Boy that sounds like it could be a scum role also. Mafia doctor who has to protect a townie? It's possible. I'm not saying it's the likeliest possibility, but in this game I could believe it.

Also, why would you come out with your result immediately upon the beginning of the day? Isn't that one of those things that you'd keep quiet about until he came under suspicion?

Because I am already under suspicion, in addition to being a claimed doctor, and i already have been targeted for a kill by someone who was only blocked by accident and MUST kill again tonight. And even if I'm not killed for any of those things I also die if I target scum. That's more than enough reasons for me.

[Paradoxombie]

Notice how NN died by choking on Gillyweed.

Makes me believe rule 9.75 a bit more and PX a bit less...And there do seems to be a lot of doc's...

vote Paradox

.

Why do you believe the rule more now? Because I see nothing that confirms it any further.

Why did you think Volkan was scum? Please be as detailed as possible in your thinking.

Who did you protect last night?



Adel, I demand to know everything I've done today that you think is scummy. Because it'd be really easy for me to seem more protown if, rather than speculate and ask questions, I just voted someone with no explination. Specifically I'd like to know how my first 4 posts today were scum-like.

[Paradoxombie]

I thought he was scum.

Why?

Notice how NN died by choking on Gillyweed.

Makes me believe rule 9.75 a bit more and PX a bit less...And there do seems to be a lot of doc's...

Gillyweed is form HP.

9.75.

The role name Harry Potter or any derivation thereof is assigned to a player with the alignment of pro-town.

?

Specifically I'd like to know how my first 4 posts today were scum-like.

?

at lynch-3 while other players are figuring out the voting mechanic does not count as pressure.

I did not say I was under preassure.

Why didn't you announce who you were targeting

before the night scene

? With the number of doctors in this game, your death+someone else's protection of you would be just as good for us as a proven "guilty" on someone.

Mafia would kill me to frame that person.

Vote:Adel

[Paradoxombie]

And PX why is the kill by Gillyweed, which is clearly the scum kill?

Bastard mod or a role designed by bastard mod, I suppose.

[Paradoxombie]

hmm I forgot/didn't notice that Xtoxm's rolename fits his target's death. So I retract my blaming the Gillyweed thing on the mod. It's clear that I'm not the only HP role so that is the more likely explination.

[Paradoxombie]

Mod, is it a mistake that mine and Shaft.ed's votes on adel are separated in the last count?

[Paradoxombie]

Also, starting to get a slight doubt he's also a doc...Why would there be 2 normal doc's?

There isn't even 1 NORMAL doc.

[Paradoxombie]

Are you saying you're a triforce, shaft?

[Paradoxombie]

And I don't get what you mean by target.

Target as in to kill?

[Paradoxombie]

I protected shaft.ed.

[Paradoxombie]

besides what I said the claim table already looks accurate to me.

[Paradoxombie]

why on earth would a town-aligned shaft.ed reveal that? that is exactly the kind of information I sit on so I can catch scum.

He obviously has sat on it and waited for the third to claim.

[Paradoxombie]

Shafted has clearly tried to trap scum as you suggest, Adel:

I will not claim which
triforce 'til third comes forward
Nibbler cooks good pork

Massclaiming will not be good for town because I cannot be assured that other triggers do not exist in this game. I will not be name or role claiming at this point and recommend that others do not either. Especially with someone as claim hungry as Xyzzy is in the game.

Can you at least claim
or not claim to be Triforce?
Nibbler is so smart

It looks like this implicates Cicero if he is indeed the triforce.

Unvote, Vote: Cicero

[Paradoxombie]

I, too, thought Shaft.ed was refering to private info in post 995. I don't feel confident voting cicero based on the assumption the triforce of power would be evil, especially when we don't even know if he is one.

Unvote, Vote:Adel

[Paradoxombie]

Para why should we
not lynch you today discuss
Nibbler has tone abs

I've really got nothing. Any counter-argument?

[Paradoxombie]

Well, I don't like how she is so intent on knowing the claims while being so against claiming herself. She's also not reading carefully.

I don't like her actions regarding Xtoxm, tricking him into a claim then soon after criticizing me for suspecting him, calling him a VI. Today she has recognized him as somewhat intelligent. I think her attacks on me have been more opportunistic than mine on Xtoxm.

[Paradoxombie]

I believe Adel. So that means para is lying.

vote: para

Adel didn't target me last night.


I'm taking note of this:

scum looking for a claim could easily misread 9.75 and pick a HP character name.

Adel, why did you cast suspicion at me for my name like this if you had an HP one yourself?

[Paradoxombie]

Adel didn't target me last night.

How would you know this?
Are you busing eachother?
Nibbler has nice hair.

was I wrong to link these posts?:

Adel who was your
target last night please tell me
Nibbler has tone abs

cicero

Overall I'd be satisfied with an Adel lynch at this point. It's time to vote Adel if you plan to, deadline is comming.

And once again I'd like to point out the Adel/Xtoxm connection.

-Xtoxm's first post was voting Adel.
-Vollkan put Xtoxm high on his list of suspects, and Adel also went after him early on.
-Adel pulled that whole dayvig thing with Xtoxm.
-Adel attacked me for going after Xtoxm(as soon as I started questioning his disappearence[because of her dayvig tactic]).
-Xtoxm miraculously killed Vollkan with his one-shot and gave an unsatisfying explaination of how he figured it out.
-Adel commented on Xtoxm's sudden increase in skill, but doesn't draw a connection with vollkan
-Xtoxm unvotes suddenly close to deadline, and now argues for her.

(if any of this is wrong, please tell me, some are from memory and I didn't confirm all of them)

Xtoxm's play looks like distancing to me, he just doesn't do it very well, because he fails to explain any reasoning for being so anti-Adel. This sudden change of heart at deadline is likewise inexplicable.

[Paradoxombie]

Oh, and I only wrote that in case I'm killed tonight. I would not support one lynch based on the unconfirmed status of another.

There is also a twist to my ability that would make me far less effective if the scum were to know it.

Is this refering to how you kill other doctors? If so, why does it make you less effective now that scum know?


Honestly I find Adel's claim contrived(it's way too similar to mine), and I especially don't like her "elaborate hoax" comment:

why not one of the
claimed docs?

what part of my claim sounds like an elaborate hoax?

I have a rotten role name, an improbable role (with two doctors claimed already) and I targeted a less likely target.

WIFOM anyone?


And even though I answered, I don't like this question:

how many lines is your role PM? which type of formatting is most common? how many paragraphs is your role divided into?

Xtoxm's play looks like distancing to me, he just doesn't do it very well, because he fails to explain any reasoning for being so anti-Adel. This sudden change of heart at deadline is likewise inexplicable.

Killng vollkan is
some really big distancing
Nibbler has nice abs

I know, but I'm still very unsatisfied with how he explained his reasoning. He caught scum based on one post he didn't like. And this might be a stretch, but I don't like his reaction Day 2 to his succesful vig. I expect some sort of elation at that kind of lucky guess.

[Paradoxombie]

Btw, Mod, I am actually really enjoying this game so far.

[Paradoxombie]

There is also a twist to my ability that would make me far less effective if the scum were to know it.

Is this refering to how you kill other doctors? If so, why does it make you less effective now that scum know?

unvote, vote:Paradoxombie

Does anyone else know what she means? A "yes" or "no" answer will suffice.

[Paradoxombie]

Oh, I see. It's that scum will know you aren't protecting the other doctors? I guess that would matter more if there weren't already so many doctors.

[Paradoxombie]

And Para, it wasn't a "lucky guess" I didn't do it randomly, I thought he was scum.

I asked why and you said you "didn't like" one of his posts. That doesn't qualify as scumhunting in my book.

[Paradoxombie]

I think Adel is far scummier than Xyzzy. I'm not happy at all with his play, but it's no good going after someone for inactivity so late in the day.

I'm unsatisfied with Adel's defenses and reponse to preassure. I think she's grown more and more desperate, throwing suspicion all around. But for some reason, all the preassure has stalled.

unvote, vote: Adel

[Paradoxombie]

I should probably point out that I could've gotten you lynched today. If I weren't scared of you really being a doctor your early posts in this day were totally scummy enough for your lynch to go through. I am really good at getting my guy lynched.

It was only a couple of pages ago when you were voting me. I don't trade favors in mafia anyway, but this sounds more like a threat.

[Paradoxombie]

hmmm, no. I was pointing out that I abandoned your wagon, at risk to my self, because I lost faith in you being scum. I didn't abandon your wagon because I couldn't carry it through to a lynch.

you've abandoned my wagon multiple times, but you keep getting back on.


It's clear Xyzzy's inactivity isn't casual carelessness, but it's not enough to convince me he's scum. The mere fact that he's doing it so blatantly makes me think it's less likely to be scum motivated. Maybe I'm just willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because this is not a traditional game. I mean this post made me think about it:

People with post restrictions are generally barred from saying they have one.

I mean I find Xyzzy play far too ridiculous to be a simple lurking tactic.

[Paradoxombie]

Adel what does not
make sense about your own role
Nibbler has tone abs

I ask this again
Adel please answer this time
Nibbler has nice ass

I'd guess my role name (lord voldermont) being pro-town. or him being a doctor, but I'm not familiar with HP.

Am I the only
one bothered by this answer?
Nibbler has cute toes

I don't like it, and not just because it's weak reasoning. But idk if it's for the same reason as you.

[Paradoxombie]

Not changing.

[Paradoxombie]

This extra twilight time he gives us is quite strange.

Why? We already know one role that can use powers during this time. If the mod stopped giving us the time it would tell us that no other roles could do anything now. So even if no one can do anything he has to keep giving us the time.