Mini 520 - Triumvirate Mafia - ABANDONED

[Rishi]

Hi folks. Will do a read in the next 24 hours or so.

[Rishi]

Rules clarification: Can a Triumvirate power be channeled to one of the Mafia?

[Rishi]

All right, I did a read. A large part of this thread was dominated by the discussion of whether or not a mass claim should happen. I think the general consensus at this point is that we're not mass claiming?

Actually, the thing that caught my eye the most is Phate's argument that friendliness equals suspicion. I hate using this expression too much (because it's overused and misused), but I think that's WIFOM. It seems that, perhaps Phate posts this in multiple games in order to convince people of his argument, so that he can continue to act unfriendly and avoid suspicion. Attitude, at least to me, seems a bit of a null-tell. I see Phate's general point. Buddying up to a townie is a very good tactic for scum (spurgistan did this to me in a recent game we were both in!), but I think it only becomes scummy if someone is only being friendly to one particular player. General friendliness is not a scumtell.

Besides, meerkats enjoy being patted on the head.

It seems my vote is already on Phate. I'll leave it there for now.

A huge bandwagon is on me right now. I'm not sure what to make of it. FL was kind of a jerk (which, according to Phate makes him town) and not a very good player. There's not much I can say to that.

[Rishi]

Ok.

Elmo, what do you think about skitzer?

[Rishi]

Vote Count:
3: Faerielord

(Phate, Thin_Man, ssf)

1: Phate

(Faerielord)

1: MoS

(Elmo)

1: skitzer

(Cephrir)

Not voting: skitzer, Sir Tornado, Mizzy, MoS, Miztef, spurgistan

I replaced Faerielord.

I'm curious for those of you who are still voting for me, why?

[Rishi]

Vote Count:
3: Rishi

(Thin_Man, ssf)

?

[Rishi]

If you want to lynch me to get this game moving, it's understandable. I think the caution probably stems from the fact that the town is completely screwed if they lynch a Triumvirate.

But, in case you're wondering, I am a "safe" lynch.

[Rishi]

Oh no, I don't want it to be too short either, I want it to be

just right

!

Thank you, Goldilocks.

But, seriously, it's difficult to test what is "just right." I think each game has its own character.

[Rishi]

I think Elmo is scum. He changed his avatar to a kitty-cat so that Mizzy wouldn't vote for him.

(No, this isn't a serious post.)

[Rishi]

Watch me get shot for saying this, but maybe we should have a "safe" lynch volunteer so that we can switch to night, allowing the power roles to be used? A cop-like verdict would help us so much right about now.

I already did volunteer. I'm vanilla.

[Rishi]

I'll be honest about mine MoS, I only voted you first because I'm close to being picked and your also close, so even though I'm fairly neutral about you, I decided that it would be better you then me.

If people were really adamant about going after phate or some others, I would have voted that candidate first in an instant.

I don't like listmaking, because I think it gives the scum too much information.

But, based on this post, which strikes me as opportunistic (though I admire the honesty)...

Unvote, Vote: Miztef

I think Miztef and Phate are the only ones I would be willing to lynch. I do NOT like the MoS lynch at all.

[Rishi]

If this is the only reason you are voting me, I would consider

your

vote as opportunistic, as I cannot see much of the logic behind it.

You can accuse me all you like. I've already volunteered to be lynched.

[Rishi]

Disappointment: Elmo

Why did you have to bring up that list generator? It is EXTREMELY UNHELPFUL AND DETRIMENTAL AND DESPERATION SHOULD NEVER HAVE FORCED THIS TURN OF EVENTS.

I second this sentiment. I've always found that listmaking has been more helpful for the Mafia than for the town. It helps them decide on who to kill at night (whoever turns up the most townie) and helps them decide who to push to lynch the next day (people towards the top of the list only need a nudge).

I don't think Elmo is scum. I think it was a genuine attempt to get the day to end, but I'm not participating in this arrangement.

[Rishi]

I thought the list was a good idea, and I don't know if it's detrimental because we all make similar lists when we mention how we feel about who. I can see arguments both for and against it, though I'd want to discuss the target we all chose BEFORE a lynch happened. I dislike that SSF voted so quickly.

As you said, there are arguments for and against it. I think it can be helpful in a smaller game, or on a later day, but on Day 1 with twelve players? It's just rampant speculation.

I think it's a fallacy that pro-town players need to be forthright at all times. Sometimes, it's harmful to let scum know that you're on to them, especially when you think someone is scum, but don't have enough to build a case.

I don't like that SSF voted so quickly, but I've played with him before. This is not unusual behavior for him.

[Rishi]

That's only one of the problems with doing lists like this, though. Doing lists in general isn't really helpful. I think most people can agree that after the first five or so, most of the people are kinda random, and we could go either way on them. The only helpful part of these lists is finding the people you find most scummy and most innocent, which could be accomplished by asking for a top 3 or bottom 3 list. But doing an entire list only serves to help the scum find out which of them is successfully hiding under the radar, and it helps them strategize better by knowing what people think about them. This is a case of too much information.

I agree with most of what MoS says, especially the quoted portion.

This is why I don't support an MoS lynch. Yes, MoS is dangerous if he's scum, but if he's town (which is 75% likely), he's a huge asset to lose.

[Rishi]

I think people are being a little harsh on TrustGossip and I can see why he's getting frustrated.

I agree that condorcet voting is a bad idea. And I think TrustGossip is dead on the money about the stagnation in this game being caused by the anxiety of possibly lynching one of the Triumvirate. Heck, 3 Mafia vs. 7 Vanilla Townies (which is what we'll get if we lynch Triumvirate) is bad odds for town, but it's not impossible to overcome.

I think TrustGossip could be a little calmer in stating his opinions and there's no need to point fingers at everyone. I don't support condorcet voting, but I don't think people who are embracing it are necessarily scum.

[Rishi]

Not sure what'll happen if we wagon someone claiming triumvirate. I would suggest that

we never put anyone at more than L-2 without a claim

as a scum quickhammer would be very viable if people didn't unvote.

How useful are claims in this game though? If a scum is going down, there's a good chance that they are going to claim Triumvirate which will force us to turn our attentions elsewhere. (Since the Three Triumvirates aren't going to counterclaim.)

[Rishi]

I am posting, but little to say.

If we are at a stalemate, then lynch all lurkers is a good policy. It'll make Day 2 go better at least. Just lynch the person who hasn't posted in the thread for the longest period.

[Rishi]

I do agree that SirT needs to post, but I do agree that we should lynch the person who hasn't posted the longest. (Not really, but I have a plan that goes in accordance with this.)

Tell me more of this mysterious plan of yours.

[Rishi]

I've listed Phate as someone I was willing to lynch earlier.

No one is putting their money with their mouth is though, which is indicative of the general wave of wishy-washiness that is in this thread. That's why you can't lynch anyone.

Unvote, Vote: Phate

Was that so hard?

[Rishi]

Did I even mention Phate? Also is it against protocol to further mention my growing unease with your play?

I don't like this.

FOS: Phate

[Rishi]

No one is putting their money with their mouth is though, which is indicative of the general wave of wishy-washiness that is in this thread. That's why you can't lynch anyone.

I am waiting for him to respond (or not) with something...

anything

other than a vote fix. Ugh. If he doesn't respond by tomorrow, he gets my vote right between the eyes.

Here's what I don't like about this post. YOUR VOTE IS NOT A BULLET. This is why you can't lynch anyone in this thread.

Phate has two measly votes on him. Your third vote isn't going to make any difference for now. In fact, with only two little votes on Phate, you could argue that any pressure on him is meaningless. He can sit there thinking, "What do I care if I get a third vote? This group is too wishy-washy to lynch anyone."

Which is true. Everyone stop dilly-dallying and lynch someone. I have volunteered on several occasions if you want a safe lynch.

You all had 28 pages already. What information do you hope to uncover in the next week that'll suddenly make you see the light?

[Rishi]

Here's what I don't like about this post. YOUR VOTE IS NOT A BULLET. This is why you can't lynch anyone in this thread.

Phate has two measly votes on him. Your third vote isn't going to make any difference for now. In fact, with only two little votes on Phate, you could argue that any pressure on him is meaningless. He can sit there thinking, "What do I care if I get a third vote? This group is too wishy-washy to lynch anyone."

Which is true. Everyone stop dilly-dallying and lynch someone. I have volunteered on several occasions if you want a safe lynch.

You all had 28 pages already. What information do you hope to uncover in the next week that'll suddenly make you see the light?

I don't think my vote IS a bullet, but I am not going to toss votes around just because you have a cute avatar and want me to. I will vote when I am damned good and ready...try bitching at some of the inactive players instead of one who is trying to be active and scumhunt.

I do have a cute avatar. Thank you.

My point is, and I should have said it in a calmer manner, is that you shouldn't be afraid to vote. Voting is one of the only weapons that we have against players - and it's a good way to probe for information. If you want players to actually feel pressured, then an actual vote is more threatening than the threat to vote.

[Rishi]

So:

Rishi: Vanilla
Miztef: Trium

Question:

Are we doubting Miztef's claim because we believe he is scummy, and we are complacent with Rishi's claim because we believe he is town?

I believe my claim because I read my role PM.

As for Miztef, I don't know what to think. I'm kind of watching things play out before deciding.

What do you think of Miztef's claim, TG?

[Rishi]

Unvote, Vote: Cephrir

Almost no content, but posts fairly regularly. Doesn't really come up with his own opinions. Just seems to jump on the most relevant bandwagon at the time.

So, Ceph, what do you think of Miztef's claim?

(And seriously guys, go back and read Cephrir's posts. It's a short read.)

[Rishi]

(And seriously guys, go back and read Cephrir's posts. It's a short read.)

I did, actually, and yeah, it's pretty short. Thin_Man is worse, though, to me.

Thin_Man stopped posting as of December 30. In fact, his last post anywhere on the site is January 3. He is someone who obviously needs to be replaced (I think the mod is overloaded as is... so I'm sure he'll get around to it.)

Cephrir, on the other hand, is staying active but continuing not to say anything.

There's a HUGE difference between a lurker and someone who is no longer on the site. Disappearance is basically a null-tell. It happens to both townies and scum.

[Rishi]

Cephrir had not posted for a while, whoever announced the plan to lynch the person who last posted the longest ago, Cephrir is on Miztef (I think) lurker list, Cephrir soon posts afterwards

Get it?

Cephrir posted because I voted for him and had some suspicions on him.

Or did you miss that?

[Rishi]

Four days to deadline. Who are we lynching? Pointing fingers and speculating are not all that productive right now. I don't like listmaking, but we need to do something.

I would be comfortable with lynching any of the following: Cephrir, Phate, skitzer, Thin_Man, SSF, me (roughly in that order). I am not sure if I believe Miztef's claim or not, but it seems best to avoid his lynch for today.

[Rishi]

Umm.. I'm not sure what TrustGossip is trying to accomplish with his vote.

But, Elmo is right. I should be on a viable wagon. Cephrir won't get lynched today.

Unvote, Vote: Phate

[Rishi]

Vote Count:

4: Phate

(Miztef, Elmo, Rishi, mizzy)

3: Miztef

(Cephrir, Phate, somestrangeflea)

1: Cephrir

(skitzer)

1: flea

(MoS)

1: Rishi

(Thin_Man)

1: TrustGossip

(Trustgossip)

Not voting: Beep! Beep!

I am voting myself?

You may as well be, since your vote on skitzer serves no purpose.

[Rishi]

You appeared to be angled more towards a Cephrir lynch a post ago, MoS. Anything change your mind?

I think he's still interested in a Cephrir lynch. He's just trying to be productive - a no lynch is bad.

Now that Phate has claimed, are you planning to put a vote somewhere, Elmo?

[Rishi]

Think that's a lynch. I'm kind of pissed, but I'm more relieved that I'm out of this game; it's been an endeavour.

I officially recommend that you lynch Miztef tomorrow.

Not a lynch yet. You're at L -1.

And TrustGossip, you really think that not voting is preferable to any other option?

[Rishi]

No powers for me.

[Rishi]

You know, MoS and CES... you both could be right. Since scum can get the Triumvirate powers as well. So MoS might have gotten the doc power AND he might be scum.

(I don't actually think MoS is scum... but just saying.)

[Rishi]

hi

Well, hello. Nothing to add?

There's also a roleblocker. Who got it? Anyone? Anyone?

Bueller?

[Rishi]

1 thing that pops out at me is that mizzy died, yet I would think that a scum would attack rishi not mizzy if they knew they couldn't bother attacking me (as it was likely I was going to be doc protected). So, just a little

FoS: Rishi

there for me.

I always hate this argument... that someone is scummy just because they're not dead. I don't think I'm so obviously a townie that I would be a top target.

But, in any case, I agree with MoS. I think you were justified in blocking Cephrir.

[Rishi]

Beep, what in post 888 changed your mind enough to do an apparent 180?

I was thinking the same thing.

Vote: Beep! Beep!

[Rishi]

Beep: Why did you vote MoS in post 885?

I also want to know what the point of voting CES was when his vote was already on CES.

Also, these Nibbler avatars are driving me crazy.

[Rishi]

Yeah... that's correct. Look at your own posts, Beep. You voted CES twice.

[Rishi]

Yeah... that's correct. Look at your own posts, Beep. You voted CES twice.

Twice in row? Yeah, I guess I did, I didn't realize.

So, simple inattentiveness or do you simply not care whether we lynch CES or MoS, as long as it's one of them?

[Rishi]

Yeah... that's correct. Look at your own posts, Beep. You voted CES twice.

Twice in row? Yeah, I guess I did, I didn't realize.

So, simple inattentiveness or do you simply not care whether we lynch CES or MoS, as long as it's one of them?

How do you draw such the second conclusion from my voting the same player twice within a few posts?

It's not so much what you did, but the way that you're responding to the questions. You're deflecting. You're not giving a straight answer and turning things back on me. I find that more telling than the double vote.

[Rishi]

Ironically, Rishi, the think that struck me the most was

your

response to Beep! Beep!

First off, your second conclusion really only makes sense if Beep is scum, so why would she admit to it in the first place? I don't see the point in you asking that question except as what I like to call the "implication tactic". It seems more like you're implying that the second conclusion is the truth, so that it makes Beep look worse, but you're phrasing it as a question instead of an accusation so that it looks better on you. It's a great tactic, I like to use it a lot.

Secondly, how did you draw such a conclusion from her response in the first place?

The reason that I came to that second conclusion is that I felt that you and CES are probably not scum together (the interaction between to seems more than distancing, IMHO). So, when Beep! voted for CES the second time, thinking her vote was still on you, it seemed odd. It seems to me that deciding that CES was scum instead of you was a fairly radical shift in viewpoint. And the fact that she forgot her vote was not on you? That means she sees both of you as interchangeable. I think scum would be more likely to have that viewpoint than town.

[Rishi]

It's not a non-issue. You still are completely ignoring the points I'm making and covering it up with flashy deflections. If you think they're non-issues, then demonstrate how misguided I am rather than pretending that everything I'm saying is not even worthy of a response? You haven't said a single thing of substance yet.

Also, half the game isn't even here. I think we should talk about that.

[Rishi]

Still here. Still want to hear from Beep!

[Rishi]

Rishi, if you care about this game, please vote for Beep! Beep!.

I think I'm already voting for Beep! I was the first person to do it.

[Rishi]

Anyone still playing?

[Rishi]

I'm down with lynching Beep.

[Rishi]

Ooh. I want to be an oil painting. Can I be a Monet?

[Rishi]

Here's the thing, though. Miztef might be a claimed Trium, but that doesn't mean his claim is true. I think several of us found it fishy.

If that's your only case against CES, Beep, then I think you need to look harder.

[Rishi]

Rishi, do you have a better case on someone else?

I still don't like Beep's little explosion where she says we're all idiots (I'm paraphrasing here) and that the person who needs to be lynched is "obvious." It seems like her little explosion was an attempt to deflect any scrutiny against her. That's why my vote remains on her.

[Rishi]

Progress has halted.
Beep's like a broken record.
This game really sucks.

(Thought I'd grace you all with haiku.)

[Rishi]

I'm not engaged by this game, so I would vote for abandonment.

But, if other players want to continue, I'm still in.

[Rishi]

That's 6/10 votes for abandonment so far. I think that's sufficient? Up to you, Shanba.

I would also like to know who the scum and trium were.

[Rishi]

Knew I was right about Beep. Kind of surprised about MoS though.