Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[eldarad]

Just checking in

vote Skruffs

because I preferred the old avatar better

[eldarad]

Skruffs - I'm pretty sure I've seen you in Scumchat.

Let us discuss why the kill was made on an unknown player, and not on B-list celebrities such as Zindaras and Skruffs, or even a D-list celeb like Y. I feel that if the scum were solely composed of relative newbs, they would target a strong player, not only because it would be a good play, but that the weak always want to get to the strong

Couple of questions for you:
1) How do you know there was only one attempted kill?
2) How does this speculation help us in finding the scum?
3) How come I'm not mentioned as one of the celebrities in this game?

[eldarad]

I'm really trying to get into this game, but I really don't see the relevance of the conversation that is going on at the moment.
Skruffs, do you really think this is a useful avenue to pursue this early?

Also

unvote

[eldarad]

I was just going to call Capricious out actually.

[eldarad]

I guess I should put my vote where my mouth is then

vote Capricious

[eldarad]

So, your defence is "in the last game I played with you, I wasn't scum"
Do I have to point out to you how meaningless that is?

As to the rest of your post, I'm not going to respond here because it isn't the place to so so. I'm certainly not going to get into a meta-game discussion with you based on a single game.

[eldarad]

That was actually my point entirely. Your metagaming was just as bad as mine, and I cannot understand why you people have spent a page discussing it. I agree with Y in that it bores me.

Who is this directed at?

Now, this I would like to discuss.

Go on then. Say something about it if you want a discussion.

[eldarad]

Capricious, do you have anything to say?
In particular, you said you were happy with your vote on Y. But it has since been shown that your post was based on a misunderstanding. Are you still happy with your vote? Is so, why?

Skruffs, do you have anything to say that isn't about meta-gaming other people? Do you have any thoughts on

this specific

game?

[eldarad]

ooh, maybe the 11th March should be "let's all jump on Skruffs" day

Well, something I would like to point out is that in the death scene, there is hinting of strappado possibly being a werewolf - perhaps that's just how I interpreted it, though.

I didn't automatically link the girl the villagers were talking about to Strappado (I thought maybe the girl was the one from the flavour post in the Queue thread). Although I suspect you are right now that I think about it.

All I know about the game is that the theme is werewolves, there's nothing conclusive about there actually BEING werewolves, etc.

Indeed. And Mizzy also pointed out that there is wolfsbane all over the village, so - at least for now - the werewolves don't appear to be the main threat.

Also I saw patrick and ether promise a scum role to zindaras, but that's beside the point. >.>

lol

I really don't like that afterthought in there of, "I saw patrick and ether promise a scum role to zindaras" because of how much crap it has the potential to create. That's like sticking a target to his back.

Is it? I thought it was a joke and didn't give it a second thought.

While I like seeing your ponderings on what we might be/have in the game, I don't see it as particularly helpful for the moment, and the rest of your post came off (to me, at least) like WIFOM waiting to happen. Putting pre-conceived notions in the town's heads about the possible alignment of players due to what happened before the game started that most of us didn't see and weren't there for is counterproductive.

Well, you started it with post 78:

It kind of makes me remember the movie The Village where the "monsters" were actually people.

Mizzy, I don't really know where you stand after your last post. You said that it looks like Rotten Snitch is distancing himself from Skruffs. That suggests you think they are both scum, right?
Do you have any reason for thinking that, other than the Skruff's meta that you have just said could be misleading?

For my part, I think Mizzy has been rather hypocritical attacking Skruffs for talking about the flavour and the possible identity of the scum in relation to the town. I also think the point about the Zindaras joke is spurious.
I also think Rotten Snitch was surprisingly aggressive in his reaction to Skruffs. But I'm going to let this play out before forming a judgement either way.

[eldarad]

mod

- can you prod Capricious please.

Also, a vote count would be quite nice too...

[eldarad]

A couple more people have picked up on this since I prodded Capri, but I'm waiting for Capri to actually say something.

I am here, it is nice to know that you keep me in your heart when there are others who have posted less than me.

Unvote, Vote: Andycyca

So what you're saying is that you've been reading the thread but have decided not to post because...what?...because other people have posted less?

Also, why don't you actually contribute some content to the game? You can comment on anything you like, but as a minimum I would like you to answer my question from post 127

Capricious, do you have anything to say?
In particular, you said you were happy with your vote on Y. But it has since been shown that your post was based on a misunderstanding. Are you still happy with your vote? Is so, why?

Maybe you could also explain why you voted for Andycyca.

[eldarad]

What was it based on then?

[eldarad]

Interesting how the people under suspicion have disappeared a few days before the activity-based deadline comes into effect.

We need to consider whether we can reach a compromise lynch, and whether that would be better than a no-lynch.

I'm not really seeing the case on Andycyca at the moment, but I would be prepared to switch my vote to Rotten Snitch when deadline hits as a poor substitute for lynching Capriscum.
Capricious is definitely my number one lynch choice though.

[eldarad]

My intellect is too low to understand the Skruffs-Zindaras dispute, and when you erase all those posts, what else is there?

Heh. As much as I *want* to believe, this isn't true. Interesting though how you use sarcasm to avoid saying anything substantial.

My vote on Y was not based on a misunderstanding, don't trivialize it like that.

What was it based on then?

You still haven't answered this.

I actually like the Skruffs / Zindaras conversation going on here. But it does not prove anything as to alignment. Again with the Meta.

I don't understand why you'd like a conversation that doesn't tell anything about alignments. It may be an interesting conversation (to you) but it doesn't belong in the game thread.
The complete irrelevance of the Skruffs-Zindaras argument really bothers me. Skruffs is attacking over things

that didn't happen in this game

.

Skruffs - if your objective was to get players to overcome a natural 'Zindaras is so awesome and cuddly' reaction then fine, it's already worked. I don't see why you're still pushing this angle.

[eldarad]

*points at post 218*
Capricious, respond.

[eldarad]

So why did you complain that I was 'trivialising' your vote on Y, if you had no basis for the vote anyway (apart from "feel")?

[eldarad]

Zindy thinks we should be voting Capricious. Eldarad suddenly tags along, saying he was "just about to call Capricious out", except he didn't (for some unknown reason) in his post shortly before this, and nothing's changed since then.

Capricious hadn't posted for a while. The thing that had changed was that the period of time Capri had vanished for had increased from 2 days to 3 days.

Time passes. eldarad pops up to push Capricious, again, but would consider voting Snitch, but not Andy. (If Andy's scum and Snitch+Capricious are town, please speedlynch eldarad.)

I think the majority of the wagon on Snitch seems to be caused by weak application of logic. I don't get massively good vibes from him, though, so I figure I could live with lynching him. Deffo prefer to be killing Andy, though. I quite like Capricious, actually. I don't get why the wagon on him developed, but I don't really want to vote for him today, although I probably will if we look to be headed for an impasse.

(If Snitch's scum and Capricious+Andy are town, please speedlynch Elmo.)
If only all mafia games were this easy.[/sarcasm]

Why do you like Capricious? What posts, specifically, do you like?

Looking at what I've just written, actually, eldarad needs more attention, but that's probably something for tomorrow

This looks really scummy to me. Why are you trying to set up Day 2 already? Why criticise the Capri wagon if you're willing to lynch if pushed?

If you want to give me attention, go ahead. We can do it now. As long as people are posting, we have all the time we want till Night.

[eldarad]

Just checking in.

Have I misunderstood? My impression is that we have met the activity requirement for this 24 hour block. The last deadline activity check (post 250) said 5 people had posted out of the 6 required. Since then I and andycyca have posted, making at least 7.
The next 24 hour block starts at 3am (about 3 hours).

That's how I read it anyway.

[eldarad]

Why do you like Capricious? What posts, specifically, do you like?

This looks really scummy to me. Why are you trying to set up Day 2 already? Why criticise the Capri wagon if you're willing to lynch if pushed?

Elmo, could you answer this please.

It really feels like our accusations/focus are/is all over the place and we're having a lot of trouble agreeing on anything. This is just my opinion, but I do think we need to work together instead of having everyone kind of pointing fingers in different directions.

Why do you think this is a bad thing? I'd have thought that having multiple leads was a good thing for the town.

Several people have said they see certain folks as obvtown...but I don't see a lot of explanation as to why, and that makes me kind of suspicious. That feels more like townhunting than scumhunting, but again, just my opinion and I could be incorrect.

I don't really have a problem with townhunting as a process of elimination. My problem here though is that the townhunting has been really superficial, almost like it's an excuse not to pursue someone any further.

[eldarad]

pro-town people are creators, scum play tag-along/ are concluders

Are you actually playing this game?
It's just that you haven't posted any content yet...

[eldarad]

Checking in.

We've already got 3/6 for this block. The next block ends 3am (GMT) Tuesday. We should be OK I think.

[eldarad]

OK, we need someone else to post in the next 3 and a half hours...

[eldarad]

eldarad: do you not find me attractive anymore? Prior, you had an unhealthy fetish toward me which you expressed by addressing and serenading me in every post

I still think you are the best lynch, if that's what you're asking.
Again, stop trying to copy the cool kids by trying to meta yourself and me.

[eldarad]

/post

Currently re-reading a newbie game I'm in, I'll post here when I next get the chance. My views on Capri haven't changed.

[eldarad]

So...how does this deadline work, exactally? Are we in danger at the moment? Because my current instint is to leave my vote where it is, on Rotton Snitch, unless we need me to move it in order to avoid a no-lynch. Is that going to happen soon?

We have to had 6 different people post in the thread every 24 hours, starting and ending at 3am GMT. We've got our six for today so we're OK for at least another 27 hours.
Day will end if:
1) 7 people vote for the same person -> a lynch
2) less than six people post in a 24 hour block -> no lynch

[eldarad]

So much for me being clever.
It's six to lynch, otherwise I think my last post is correct. Actually, Ether explains it better in the 1st post of the thread:

Status

: It is Day 1; with 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Due to the deadline, it also takes 6 to keep the thread open for each 24-hour block until you can lynch someone. And the 24-hour blocks are each checked at 11:00 pm Eastern. Parity!

That also means that Capri is at L-1 if I can count correctly.

[eldarad]

This is my summary of Capri's posts. My thoughts are in

blue italics

.

random votes Y, refers to a previous game
let's bandwagon Y
adds Skruffs, Zind and Elmo to the 'cat mafia'
cats=wolves
let's discuss why the scum killed an unknown rather than a B-list celebrity like Zind. Deduces that the mafia is NOT made up entirely of newbies (

first bit of content from Capri, but isn't very enlightening. One look at the player list shows that there are few newbies in this game

)
says how Y was a strong pro-town player in Newbie 546 despite being scum in that game

Couple of questions for you:
1) How do you know there was only one attempted kill?
2) How does this speculation help us in finding the scum?

1. Saw one kill, assumed one kill attempt
2. Do you have anything else better to be talking about?

Claims that my vote on him is bad, because in the last game we played together, he was town, and "caught 2 of the 3 scum". (

read

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 599#963599

to see how meaningless this is

)
The Skruffs/Zindaras meta-gaming bores him (

now this I agree with

)
would like to discuss Mizzy's post about who the scum are (

so say something then...

)
at cow:don't threaten to vote, either vote or don't. Also:

I still believe werewolves are scum and will continue to do so until we have reasons to suspect otherwise. The "For good" part of the flavor just sounds melodramatic. However, we might have reason to believe that power roles using wolfsbane are, in fact, ineffective.

I agree entirely with Y's response to this:

After emphasizing that the wolfsbane kept the werewolves out for good, you say you don't believe this is the case. Do you have a role PM saying they are here again? Their names, maybe?
Furthermore, you say there are werewolves, but that power-roles with wolfsbane won't be effective?
I think you forgot the "Pro-town investigation roles, please don't target me" part.

does not believe that L-2 or L-1 votes are scummy
Jumps on Y's mention of investigative roles,

but completely misrepresents/misunderstands what was said. Just reeks of scum

<disappears for 4 days. Reappears immediately after being prodded> (

like, within half an hour.

)
is pleased that I am keeping track of his disappearance. Votes andycyca
his vote on Y was not based on a misunderstanding (

what was it based on then?

)

Skruffs was just trying to say he's metagaming. He was trying to be productive. Y was just taking the literal approach, in fact, my vote on Y was based on meta.

That was actually my point entirely. Your metagaming was just as bad as mine, and I cannot understand why you people have spent a page discussing it. I agree with Y in that it bores me.

You've just completely contradicted yourself there in your rush to defend Skruffs/attack Y/justify your own stupid meta

what is a compromise lynch?
"False"
he is too stupid to understand what is going on (

his words, not mine...

). Thinks the Rotten Snitch-Mizzy exchange is between two townies
his vote on Y was based on "feel" (

it took ages to get Capri to spit this out

)
"feel is the best and only way there is"
asks where Sir T is

Unvote, Vote: Capricious

need a lynch, but come to your senses and lynch Andycyca day 2

I think this is a scum gambit. It's more effective in this game than others, because the scum can daytalk. They can orchestrate their votes/unvotes on the Capri wagon much more effectively than usual.
Also, for the record, I think self-voting in general reeks of scum. I'd lynch someone for it any day of the week.

is confident Mizzy and RS are town
skruffs is also solid town
Elmo is townie for defending Capri's stupid comment

pro-town people are creators, scum play tag-along/ are concluders

is no longer sure of Andy being scum because "he created something"
Elmo is town for stating on opinion that could lead to him coming under fire from other members of the town

eldarad: do you not find me attractive anymore? Prior, you had an unhealthy fetish toward me which you expressed by addressing and serenading me in every post-even going so far as

"The period of time Capri had vanished increased from 2 to 3 days" <-- Seriously WTF?

Have the fires of your love for me cooled and collated into warm coals?

Last time eldarad did this, he was a member of a whole village of idiots, but town nonetheless. His behavior here does fit with the behavior in the other game, so I am unsure on eldarad.

"Mizzy continues to solidify her awesome pro-townness"
makes a (

very flimsy, IMO

) case against cow, and votes for him
Zindaras has done nothing except the meaningless dispute with Skruffs (

I thought Skruffs was being productive...why is Zindaras being meaningless for the same thing?

)
he is self-voting, and so cow shouldn't be voting for him

~~~
So Capri, care to explain the contradiction between his opinion of Skruff's meta on Zindaras ("being productive") and Zindaras' responses ("meaningless")? And, indeed, why you think your meta'ing is better than Zindaras/Skruffs?
Also, how is self-voting going to help the town?

[eldarad]

/post

7 hours till deadline and this is the first post...

[eldarad]

It's a policy lynch/lynch policy in the sense that I think self-voting is an indicator of being scum, and my policy is to lynch scum.

[eldarad]

/post
It's 4am and I'm going to bed.

[eldarad]

Elmo, you haven't really explained why you like Capri.

I personally don't like the way the game is going right now, we're just fighting against the (deadline) current more than actually scumhunting.

And I agree with this - IMO enforced activity harms scumhunting. If we're going to lynch we need to do it soon, and then use the first two weeks of Day 2 to start analysing and hunting properly.

[eldarad]

This is 4/6.

And we really need to decide how we're going to end Today. The longer this goes on, the more I am convinced that Skruffs is correct - some people want a no-lynch. Other people (possibly the same people) just aren't active enough to post every 24 hours.

And one person in particular keeps disappearing for days at a time.

[eldarad]

Elmo, I share your sentiments.
But to clarify your position, you don't want to lynch Capricious, correct? So how do you envisage today ending?

Also, you're playing SimCity 4, right?

[eldarad]

I've already posted today. So it's still 4/6.

3 Unvote (Andycyca, Mizzy, Rotten Snitch)

I want all three of the people quoted above answer the following:

1) Why aren't you voting for anyone?
2) Why are you opposed to a Capricious lynch?
3) How do you envisage this day ending?
4) How are you contributing to that?

And to add to the whole ultimatum vibe of this post, I'm not posting again in-thread Today until at least one of those people have answered all four questions.

[eldarad]

Eh. I was never a big fan of the capi lynch, but I tend to think that the way he barely posted for days and refused to answer simple questions while he was the biggest wagon in the game with a deadline made his lynch necessary.

Well I was a fan of the Capri lynch, because he barely posted for days and refused to answer simple questions. This is a big factor in a game where half the live players must post every 24 hours.
Also, he was scummy as hell.

What do you think about the fact he didn't leave time for Capri to claim?

What? Capri had been under pressure for some time. He was at L-1 on 26th March before he unvoted himself. He could have claimed then.
He was back at L-1 on the 1st April, so there was another 48 hours where he could have claimed before the hammer.
Also, you're acting like the claim would have changed everything. Capri was a villager. He would still have been lynched after a claim.
I think you're being very opportunistic here, pointing at people and saying "you killed a villager!" It makes me wonder why you kept your vote on Y (who was never going to be lynched) all the way through the deadline period.

[eldarad]

As far as my vote went, I felt Y was scum (and I didn't see Capri as a good target). This was more important to me at the time than securing a lynch, because, well, I did not view a no lynch as a serious possibility.

In what way was a no-lynch not a serious possibility? How was posting "I'm still here" benefiting anyone? From where I'm standing you were just happy staying well clear of the Capri wagon. Which now gives you lots of scope for attacking the people who actually put their vote where their mouth was and ended up mislynching a townie.

I never said I was 100% sure he was town

Well of course not. But you said that you were pretty damn sure. Whilst also leaving yourself the cop out of "well, if it avoids a no-lynch, I'd vote Capri, but I'd do it thinking he wasn't scum"
Which is a convenient way of setting yourself up as the reluctant townie, lynching someone (you know to be) a townie because everyone else told you to.

I kinda see Skruffs' Mizzy-Zindy link, but for me the thing that sticks out is how both of them have adopted this "I wasn't on the Capri wagon, and therefore I have clean hands" attitude.

[eldarad]

I said that his play(s) was/were town to me; I have a very strong pro-towner read on him. I couldn't see a scum playing the way he did, and maybe it's just me but the case on him was so weak, there's no way I'd back something like that.

So your reasoning for Capri being town is that he was too stupid to be scum? Since when was intelligence linked to alignment?

And what, I'm supposed to just be okay with a probable mislynch just because we have strict deadlines? I know a no-lynch is horrible but I don't want us settling for mislynches either.

Now you're implying that everyone on the Capri wagon was settling for a mislynch. That gives you scope to attack everyone on that wagon for mislynching.
I was trying to lynch scum yesterday.
Most people were trying to lynch scum yesterday.
You were trying to stay out of trouble yesterday.

And yes, while I feel that my hands are clean, I'm also not holding it over anyone's head.

Yes you are. Every post you've made today has been criticising the Capri wagon, criticising the people on the Capri wagon, bemoaning our lynch of a poor innocent villager...

Well, the argument that Capri didn't try to shake his wagon is a bit of a cop-out reason for things, if you ask me. Just because the person you're beating on doesn't fight back, it doesn't make it okay to beat on them.

Really? You think that refusing to provide a defence constitutes a valid defence? Or is this just another excuse to attack the Capri wagon?

vote Mizzy

[eldarad]

Firstly, half the people on the Capri wagon ADMITTED that they were settling for the lesser-scummy target, and just wanted a lynch. Even Andy said as much.

*Gasp* you mean...we reached a consensus? Amazing...
I note how you did nothing to push

any

lynch during the deadline.

Secondly, I haven't actually attacked anyone, though, now have I? If you were trying to lynch scum, you failed, miserably, and ignored everything that several of us said about Capri.

Haven't attacked anyone? You certainly sound like you're attacking people. The fact that you are attacking a broad swathe of people (ie, all the people on the Capri wagon), rather than naming names, just makes it worse.
And there you are again, attacking someone (me, this time) for lynching Capri. Oh, and just so you don't forget,

you failed to lynch scum too.

I wasn't the only person who didn't vote, and I sure as hell wasn't the only person who said he was prob-town. Go attack them too, just to be fair.

But you are the only person who didn't vote and is now using that as a basis for attacking others.

Yes, and that makes me so, so very scummy, doesn't it? I was RIGHT. You think I'm going to back down when I'm right and proven to be right about something?

Well yeah, actually. Not the being right part as such, but avoiding trouble Day 1 and then attacking people who

did

put their opinions on the line the next Day certainly does make you look scummy in my book.

The whole argument is too WIFOM to even touch on.

Pointing out that two players are avoiding each other isn't WIFOM. It's a pretty good indicator of scumbuddies, IMO.

[eldarad]

But the same can be said for other people in this game, too...lurking, posting no content, making shit up to drive suspicion on other targets...which has been my point all along.

This is how you can say that you haven't attacked anyone Today, you make these blanket statements toward an unspecified group of people. Who,

specifically

, are you talking about?

When I attack someone, you will see something like a FoS or a Vote from me in the post. Otherwise, I'm just scumhunting.

What about the post I quoted just above? It looks like an attack to me.

And yes, the entire Capri wagon (and those NOT on the wagon) do need to be scrutinized because that's kind of how you play the game.

I'll say it again: you failed to lynch scum too.

I'm pretty sure that's false...considering a certain other person *cough*Zindaras*cough* is coming under fire for the same thing.

2 Unvote (Mizzy, Rotten Snitch)

No, you're the only one who didn't vote and is now using the fact that you weren't on the wagon as a pedestal to put yourself on.

So what you're saying is that in order to have appeared less scummy I should have helped you mislynch someone I felt was not scum? How does that work?

We can do without the childish sarcasm, thanks.

Sitting quietly and not committing to anything on Day 1, only to attack other people for taking a stand the next Day IS scummy. Which is why I think you're scum.

~~~
Zindaras, I see your questions. I'll answer them the next time I'm on. (Probably tomorrow night)
Yos, I've just seen your post too. You'll have to wait as well...

[eldarad]

And, quite frankly, eldarad, my entire point is that most people, in fact, did not put their money where their mouth was, see the real vote count in 471.

I disagree. Specifically, I don't think it is valid to exclude some votes as being "not genuine." I don't agree that certain kinds of votes have less weight than others. Although certainly I agree that we can question the motivation behind the vote.
I am strongly of the opinion that those who didn't vote at all Yesterday do not get a free pass Today because they didn't help to lynch a townie.

Do you think it's productive to ignore your main suspect in favour of reaching a consensus?

I absolutely believe that consensus is the only way the town will lynch, especially once we get to the deadline phase:

I enjoyed this game, but I'd like to comment on the 48 hour posting rule.

I don't think it really helped activity at all. We just ended up with people posting half-thoughts or two line posts just checking in. It just made it hard to get a grip on what people thought about the game.

Link to original post
So, I don't find it at all surprising that some people settled for second best, given the enforced activity mechanic. I'm sure it will happen several times during the course of the game. I think that the emergence of consensus lynches in this game is a positive thing.

What do you think of Skruffs's linking Mizzy/me into a scumteam? Do you agree with his logic? Which points do you agree with? Which points do you disagree with? Why?

Personally, my issue is Mizzy's attitude Today towards the Capri wagoners from her position as a non-voter.
You'll notice that I have not made a case for you as scum as yet - although I note that you have similar attitude to Mizzy with respect of not being on the Capri wagon and therefore being somehow beyond reproach Today.
I find this to be a far stronger link between you and Mizzy than an analysis of quotes.

That being said, that dosn't mean that there weren't any scum on the wagon, of course. At the moment, I'm thinking Eldred; it feels like he's massivly over-reacted to some fairly reasonable and vauge posts by Mizzy, to the point where he's giving me a "scum who knows he's pushed a bad wagon" vibe. It's kind of a gut thing, but it's the best I've got at the moment, so vote:Eldred

I was reacting as much to the vagueness as anything else. I really don't like how Mizzy is attacking a group of players in such an unspecified way and then claiming she isn't attacking anyone because she hasn't voted yet. The fact that she is using her position Yesterday of opposing the Capri lynch (in a weak, non-committal way) just makes me more confident that something here doesn't stack up.
Why do you think that Mizzy's vague attacks are OK? How are vague attacks better than specific attacks on specific people?

[eldarad]

I'm not sure why "vaugeness" in this case is a scumtell. She didn't like the wagon yesterday, and dosn't like it today in retrospect; isn't that kind of how you would expect a pro-town person to respond in that situation? She was discussing the wagon, which is only logical since that's the main thing we've talked about today, and has basically been venting her opinions on it in general. Could you show me exactally what it is she's said that you think scum would be more likely to say then town?

Well, taking post 551, which Mizzy simul-posted with you, she still hasn't named any people that she's actually unhappy (or happy) with.

What upsets me about the Capri lynch was that most of the people on the wagon specifically said that Capri was not their top suspect, or even a suspect at all, and that they wanted a lynch in general because they freaked out about the deadline mechanism.

Which people? Is one person worse than others?

I don't think (as was already pointed out) that those people are scummy persay, but I do ask that we concentrate on scumhunting and not lynchhunting.

Who was lynchhunting rather than scumhunting?

Not everyone on Capri's wagon is guilty of that, either...some people legitimately thought he was scum, and I can't fault them for that.

Who?

This is the thing Yos. Mizzy has produced plenty of content Today, but it's ALL vague. Apart from directly responding to Skruffs, there's no specific people she has addressed but she

has

been attacking the Capri wagoners. And even when challenged on this, she denies attacking at all, since only posts with a vote or a FoS constitute an attack according to Mizzy.
It just doesn't sit right with me.

[eldarad]

I've seen your list where you have given people a score on a scale from 1 to 10 in terms of scumminess. But I'm not seeing how that relates to all of the other posts you have made so far in the whole game.

Why don't you indulge me and tell me who, specifically, you were talking about in post 551?

[eldarad]

Rotten Snitch: what is your opinion on the Capri lynch? In contrast to Mizzy, you have not been vocal about attacking the Capri wagon, apart from post 486. So what do you think happened?
Was the Capri lynch caused by scum? Or lazy townies desperate to avoid a mislynch? Or something else?
What do you think of Mizzy's actions today with respect to the Capri wagon?
Do you agree with her attacks on people who joined the wagon without really thinking Capri was scum? Or do you disagree with me when I say that Mizzy has been attacking people Today?

[eldarad]

I'll say it again: you failed to lynch scum too.

Does that make her wrong? We, collectively, failed to lynch scum yesterday. This argument is getting dangerously close to "We should discard what happened on previous lynches"

No it doesn't. This argument says "we, collectively, failed to lynch scum Yesterday and so individuals who weren't on the Capri wagon don't get a free pass today."
I think it is significant that you have freely admitted that the town, collectively, is responsible for the mislynch. That's something Mizzy was reluctant to concede.

Okay, so if I post that I think Yosarian is town and then vote him, my vote will still be genuine and good?

No. If you post that you think Yosarian is town and then vote him, your vote will still be genuine.
Then we can look into the motivation behind the vote. All votes are "real" in that they contribute to a lynch.

I am strongly of the opinion that those who didn't vote at all Yesterday do not get a free pass Today because they didn't help to lynch a townie.

And where do you see anyone saying that? Because nobody did.

I see Mizzy using that argument for leverage, even if it is never explicitly stated. It's one of the things I've called her on Today. IIRC, several other players have also called her up on this.

Rotten Snitch, thanks for your answer in post 593. I'd like to follow up on one point:

Was Capri’s lynch cause by scum. I can say there is a guarantee that at least one scum was on his wagon. We do not know how many bad guys there are but we can most defiantly assume there are two or more. Looking back at the voting patterns Zindy was on Capri in the beginning and then bailed when it started gathering speed. Maybe this was to say he thought Capri was town. I think anyone at this point in the game saying Capri was town should be looked at. Capri was not acting completely scummy but was also not acting in a purely town manner.

I agree with you that, given that Capri was a villager and that the majority of players voted for him, at least one scum was on the Capri wagon.
I guess the next question is

where

on the wagon did the scum join?

Personally, I think we can search for scum more fruitfully amongst those who avoided the Capri wagon (or, indeed, those who bailed out).

~~~
I'm pretty sure there was something else I wanted to reply to, but I've forgotten it already...

[eldarad]

Checking in.
I've missed quite a bit and I've lost my bearings slightly. I'm going to catch up with my reading and see if I can post something intelligent in the next 24 hours.

[eldarad]

/post

eldarad also said he would post something intelligent in the next 24 hours, but didn't.

Yeah, I know. I haven't got as imaginative excuse as "I'm going into labour", I'm just really busy at work, and reading back through this thread seems more like work than fun at the moment...
I need a good 4 hours or so to really attack this thread - I'll do it when I get the chance.

[eldarad]

I'm currently re-reading Day 2, I've just got to the end of page 21. So I've still got some way to go...

[eldarad]

/post

I was going to catch up tonight but the new series of Heroes started tonight...

[eldarad]

Eldarad

- I really haven't been reading much of you. Did you vote mizzy because of stuff I said or did you have your own reasoning?

It was my own reasoning, although I guess I borrowed a bit off you occasionally...
Posts 34 onwards (if you filter just my posts) are probably what you're after.

I'm not liking this Andycyca wagon at all. One of the things that was apparant at the start of the Day was how some people really wanted to attack Andy for the hammer, but after putting some feelers out never really pushed the attack home.
Seeing the (attempted) wagon being pushed now that we are in deadline phase is ringing alarm bells for me. But apart from that, I get a pro-town read from RS - certainly moreso that Yos - so I'm not sure what to make of that.

Having five people with one vote each is doing us no good at all. I'm still not liking Mizzy's behaviour in general Today - and it will be very interesting to see how she votes - but we need to move towards a consensus lynch and I don't think Mizzy will be the lynch Today.

unvote

[eldarad]

/post

Mizzy, I see your questions, I'll answer them when I have the time and inclination. (Maybe even later tonight, depends)

[eldarad]

And the reason I am suggesting I Am probably going to be lynched is because more people are agreeing that I Am wrong than they are that You are wrong, and are dropping their votes on other wagons. Which means more votes are going to start popping up onto you or mine's wagon, which means that between you and me, I Will probably be lynched.

This got me thinking. Why do you think the choice is between two people?
Personally, I don't think Skruffs or Y is the lynch for Today. But certainly there is an impression that the pool of potential lynch candidates is reduced. Maybe I have played a part by pushing the need for a consensus.

But when I think back to who have been pushing an agenda of narrowing discussion, and making the lynch an either/or decision between two people, there are two people who spring to mind.

FoS: Skruffs

for not leaving past grudges behind back in the games they belong in, drawing focus away from the two scum candidates, and being tunnel-visioned.

As Skruffs has already mentioned, this is a deliberate attempt to limit discussion. She even FoS'ed Skruffs, which indicates that this is an official, genuine, 24 karat

attack

.

Capricious

: What the hell were those beanpoles you tried to pass off as posts/content? There's a case against you and you're on the lynchlist of at least two people, and that's ALL you can muster?

I also note that, in the same post, she mentions Capri's lack of content. This must be the pro-town read she's been talking about all Day...

~~~
For Day 2, Yos takes over from Mizzy, although he did do a little bit of groundwork late on Day 1 with his insistence that the Capri wagon was the only game in town (although he also says that he was trying to get Capri to offer a defence).

Once the debate between Mizzy and I starts to hot up, Yos positions himself to create an either/or situation. Once I vote for Mizzy:

fos:eldred

Didn't like that last post of his.

His next post goes a step further with a vote based on 'gut.' But, to me, it just looks like he's trying to produce a situation where townies think 'well, either Mizzy or Eldarad are scum, so we should lynch one of them'
Unfortunately for Yos, the debate kinda died down and other debates kept on going despite his intervention. But that's OK, because the Skruffs-Rotten Snitch still provided a possibility for a either Skruffs or Rotten Snitch lynch decision, based on Day 1 and - to a lesser extent - Today.

Anyway, we need to wagon someone, and we need to do it now, we've got no time. Why are so many people not voting? Are people so afraid of another bad bandwagn that we're just going to no-lynch today? What the heck?

I'm still thinking either Rotton Snitch or eldarad is fine. I'm actually a bit more suspicious of Rotton Snitch at the moment

unvote
vote:Rotton Snitch

I don't really like the Mizzy wagon, but we need to move SOMEWHERE. Everyone needs to get in here and vote, and they need to do it now.

So...Yos thinks we NEED to bandwagon someone. But he dislikes the Mizzy wagon.
Instead, he thinks we should lynch either Rotten Snitch or Eldarad, and changes his vote from me to RS for emphasis.

Uh, we have half a week until deadline, and the biggest bandwagon is exactally two people. I'm not saying we need to hammer someone right now, but we need to start moving towards a lynch, hopefully with time and inclination to be able to back off and go somwhere else if we want to. We need to start moving towards a lynch NOW, so we AREN'T forced to either no-lynch or fire off a quick "it's deadline lets lynch someone now" situation.

Another exhortation to bandwagon, but he doesn't want to get too far off-message

After thinking about it, and after some of Eldred's more recent posts which felt a little less scummy, I came to the conclusion that I was happier with lynching you then lynching Eldred, although I wouldn't mind either one and I think there's a good chance that the two of you are scum together.

Mentions again how we are racing against the deadline clock, and is next vote confirm-votes RS.
The rest of Yos' posts Today are attacking RS, but he also pulls up other people who attempt to suggest that RS might be town (Y, for example).

This focus on (trying to) limit conversation/bandwagons to a small number of people suggests to me that Yos is scum trying to use the deadline mechanic to his advantage. So I'm going to start a shiny new bandwagon

vote Yosarian

~~~

Are you not liking my play because I suspect you or are you not liking my play because it's convenient for you? Because, seriously, my play hasn't been anything out of the normal for me, and most of it today has centered around trying to keep the town from making the same mistake twice.

I think I've made my views on your 'public service' to the town by standing on your pedestal and lecturing the Capri wagoners.
As for your normal playstyle, I don't understand the question.

Also, what gives you a pro-town read on RS?

I'm not sure. An absence of scumminess, I suppose.
On top of that, I find Yos' case on RS totally unconvincing, and I now believe it has only been pushed to further the 'either/or' agenda.

[eldarad]

/post

I'm half way through posting a response to Yos, but it won't be done tonight

[eldarad]

/post

/is here, is waiting to hear from eldred

yeah, yeah.
I haven't even looked at this game tonight. I'll finish off writing my post tomorrow, work permitting.

[eldarad]

eldarad, I really hate when people do the "I'll post real content tomorrow." I'm not saying I haven't been guilty of that, but people have wanted you to respond for a few days now. Why couldn't you just split this up into multiple parts so you could get at least a few things out?

I'm only posting at all so that we don't miss a deadline.
I'm going to try to finish my post tonight, but if I don't guarantee anything. All my games are suffering at the moment (and I'm only playing in 3), but that is a reflection on how my leisure time in general is suffering.

If you really think I'm avoiding posting in the thread for ulterior motives, then you should vote for me. If you don't think that, then give me a break, yeah?

[eldarad]

Uh, I explained what I was doing there about a dozen times. And no, I wasn't "just trying to get Capi to offer a defense"; we NEEDED him to offer a defense, because I was NOT going to explain HIS actions for him before he explained them for himself. And if you actually look, I spent a LONG time trying to get some kind of reaction out of him before finally voting him.

You're creating a distinction that doesn't exist.
I don't dispute that you spent time trying to get Capri to respond. I just don't buy the idea that you were doing it to help the town.

That was scummy for several reasons:

Interesting how this is the first time you have explained (in more than one sentence) why you voted for me...

So when I said your post was scummy, when I voted for you, it had nothing to do with any kind of "well, either eldred or Mizzy is scum". It was because you looked hella scummy, combined with me thinking that if there was scum on the Capi wagon, that you came off looking worse then anyone else on the wagon. I would have been glad to explain it to you then, but interestingly, you never asked why I suspected you back then, you just seemed to accept my comment that your post was scummy.

If you are going to vote for me without saying why, that isn't really my problem, and in the absence of a wagon gathering pace on me, I really couldn't care less about your vote. My approach was that if you had wanted to explain your vote, you would have done so. Instead, you're turning it onto me and suggesting that I was at fault for not pressing you.

1. It seemed like in every single part of your post, you delibratly warp and twist what Mizzy is trying to say. Like, she said "He wasn't playing like I would expect a scum to play like", which is a perfectly reasonable argument, and you respond with"So your reasoning for Capri being town is that he was too stupid to be scum?" which isn't anything like what she said. And you keep doing that, over and over again in that post; the whole post just gives off a bad vibe because of the amount of misrepresentng you crammed into it. She never said that "everyone on the capi wagon was heading out for a mislynch".

I didn't warp or twist anything. Some things I may have taken a step further than what Mizzy said, in order to show how ridiculous the logic was. For example:

She never said that "everyone on the capi wagon was heading out for a mislynch"

She said that the town had settled for a mislynch in favour of a no-lynch. By implication, the wagon on Capri was formed by townies "settling for a mislynch" in order to avoid a no-lynch.
If you recall, another of the points I made against Mizzy - and one you don't seem to have a problem with - is that her deliberately vague blanket statements were allowing her to attack the Capri without antagonising specific people.
If you think that making vague blanket statements so as to avoid antagonising people isn't scummy, by all means say so.

2. You seem to be making excuses for your own actions, in a scummy kind of way that feels off to me.

Where did I make excuses? No-one has attacked me for my position on the Capri wagon and - if anything - I've been trying to get Mizzy to be specific about her attacks. I have no problem being pressured for my role in the Capri wagon. Although, interestingly, despite Mizzy's criticism of the Capri wagon, her suspicion of me is apparently unrelated to Day 1. Which just seems odd.

3. You seem to be attacking her, because she didn't like a bandwagon on day 1 that turned out to be a bad bandwagon, and because she said so again on day 2. This whole thing feels like a pre-emptive strike on your part, like you were trying to undermine her in order to protect yourself from her attacking you, which again is scummy.

I've already explained my position on this (the whole 'pedestal' thing). I won't repeat myself given the time constraints I'm under.

4. And while it's a minor point, something about the phrase "bemoaning the loss of a poor, innocent villager" just sets off alarm bells in my head; it just feels like something a defensive scum would say in that situation

In what way?

So I'm going to start a shiny new bandwagon

vote Yosarian

Why, because I'm attacking your scumbuddy?

erm, no.

Care to humor us and actually respond to my case, and explain what you don't like about it?

Why would I defend against a case that isn't about me? I'm just noting that the case is unconvincing because I think it's worth putting my opinion on record. I have no intention of answering it in detail.

~~~

Or, perhaps it was an attempt to focus discussion, not limit it. You, yourself have tried some focusing techniques, such as calling out for a consensus wagon, and so this feels very pot-kettle to me. And yes, of course I was attacking him, his meta posting was bull in my eyes and causing a huge distraction to the town. It's one thing when someone wants to talk about something different, but quite another when the motives are not pro-town. I didn't feel his topic-changing was pro-town.

Calling for a consensus is not comparable to FoS'ing someone for discussing players who aren't on your list of approved discussion topics for the Day. Suggesting that Skruff's change of topic was anti-town because he wanted to talk about someone you didn't want to talk about is BS.

<sarcasm>Because, you know, people can't change their minds about a player, and when they do, it's because they are scum, not because they had second thoughts or new content is introduced that changes things. </sarcasm>

I only mentioned it because it was in the post I was reading anyway. Nevertheless, it is surprising that as we approached deadline you were critical of Capri, but ended up being strongly opposed to his lynch as a lynch began looking more and more likely.

This statement confuses me and I don't quite understand why you're saying it. You also seem to be questioning the existence of something that actually happened, i.e. Yosarian2 trying to get Capri to offer a defense. He was very outspoken in his attempts to get Capri to offer a defense, so please don't try and pretend it didn't happen.

I know it happened. I am questioning the motives for it and, indeed, why it only started when it became apparent that Capri defence was never going to be forthcoming or adequate.

This paragraph of yours speaks very loudly to me, and now I'm pretty sure you're anti-town at least and scum at most. It feels like you don't care who dies as long as it's not you. Doesn't matter if they're a townie or not.

How? I think I'm missing a step in your thought process here.

I still haven't seen evidence presented that I was ever on a pedestal, but whatever.

There has been plenty, and you have consistently ignored or dismissed it. So whatever.

~~~

But never mentioned Eldarad again. Andy, did you ever do that Eldarad-only reread? If so, what do you think about him currently?

I agree with this sentiment, by the way. I also have sympathy with RS's slight moan that he's being held to a higher standard than Andycyca.

[eldarad]

Checking in.

I've read all the posts so far Today. The only one I feel moved to comment on is Skruff's reaction to Y's first(?) post.
I think Skruffs has a point about Y seeming to link the no-lynch and the no-kill. But having said that, even if Y did make this link I don't think it really helps us determine his alignment anyway.

RS's posts so far Today strike me more like someone who is pissed off, rather than scum. Just my tuppence worth.

[eldarad]

3. Well, she debated a lot with eldarad yesterday because of her

non

participation in D1's lynch. Why don't you take that as "distraction" as well?

Well, Andy, what do you think about that? Because so far you've avoided expressing an opinion either way...

[eldarad]

Well, we have a week until deadline and, if anything, we're in a worse position than we were this time Yesterday.

I find the RS wagon to be very unappealing. I would be very reluctant to join that wagon unless something radically changed.

[eldarad]

Well then, Eldred, who do you think we should lynch?

The short answer is, at the moment, the RS wagon is the only game in town. It doesn't mean I have to like it.

I notice that Mizzy hasn't adopted the pedestal position against the non-voters from Yesterday, which gives me pause before trying to press her again Today.

I am pretty unsatisfied with andycyca's noncomittal approach to the game. His recent response to my question about his opinion on the Mizzy-eldarad debate was one line and wasn't very illuminating. I will re-read andy's contributions to the game and see whether I feel any better about him.

[eldarad]

That dosn't at all answer my question, eldred. You don't have to like the RS wagon, but if you don't, then I do expect you to figure out who you would like to lynch, vote for that person, and explain why. Because if you can't do that, then you're basically doing exactally what you accused Mizzy of doing day 1:

Now you're implying that everyone on the Capri wagon was settling for a mislynch. That gives you scope to attack everyone on that wagon for mislynching.
I was trying to lynch scum yesterday.
Most people were trying to lynch scum yesterday.
You were trying to stay out of trouble yesterday.

Does that mean you accept this as a valid line of reasoning? Because Yesterday you didn't agree with it.

It dosn't look like you're trying to find scum, or trying to help the town; it looks like you're trying to stay out of trouble. Which is the one thing that worries me about the RS wagon, actually; I'm really wondering if you're just avoiding it because you're scum who already knows RS is town.

Do you think I've been avoiding trouble the whole game? Or just Today? Because the distinction is important.
As for the RS wagon, I just don't like it. I also don't like the lack of alternatives. You were proven correct on Day 1 when you voted to lynch Capri, someone who you didn't really believe was scum anyway. Sorry, but being proven right after you've just helped mislynch someone isn't a great pro-town play, IMO.

Uhhh...the non-voters yesterday hurt the town, didn't they? I'm confused about what you're trying to say here.

Yes they did. My point was that on Day 2 Mizzy got on her pedestal to attack the wagoners. But on Day 3 she didn't get on her pedestal to attack the non-voters.
That suggests that either Mizzy doesn't feel a no-lynch is as bad as a mislynch (which is a valid viewpoint, I guess), or that she has altered her behaviour (which suggests that I hit a nerve Yesterday.)

Like I said, Eldred's posts today are making me nervous, though, and he hasn't responded to my questions for him yet.

Yeah, sorry about that...

~~~

Well, what exactly did you want me to comment about? She didn't have a real case (other than "You lynched an innocent". Those kind of cases shouldn't be addressed that much)

OK...but you never responded at all. I agree with you on the depth and quality of Mizzy's case, but I think it needed to be jumped on and picked apart.

~~~
I don't really understand RS's recent posts. If I read it correctly...
RS is claiming to be a (pro-town) bomb
RS believes that we are a lylo
RS wants to be lynched in order to aid the town.

Assuming I got that right the only way in which, potentially, those 3 things can be consistent is if RS thinks he will be hammered by a scum. But now that he's claimed, that will never happen...

I now see that Skruffs has placed RS at L-1. Wanted to get on the wagon before the hammer vote?

[eldarad]

I believe Skruffs too, for what it's worth. And that effectively clears Skruffs and Zindaras - always assuming the scum are werewolves.

And perhaps receiving wolfsbane is what prompted Capricious to make that odd comment back on Day 1

However, we might have reason to believe that power roles using wolfsbane are, in fact, ineffective.

Which doesn't really help us, but perhaps explains the comment, if Capri believed that the person he used the wolfsbane on was actually scum.

[eldarad]

And if a werewolf has it shoved up his nose, how would it 'reject' the werewolf then?

Maybe you could draw us a diagram?

[eldarad]

The thing is eldarad was there at the time and was being constantly asked to explain and didn't. If I was being thought suspicious and asked repeatedly, I could probably get my act together and explain better where I am coming from about Mizzy and Rotten Snitch.

Being thought of suspicious - from someone I believed to be scum anyway - isn't necessarily enough for me to show all my cards. If there had been any significant, meaningful pressure on me I may have been more forthcoming. Since only Yoscum was pushing for this, I didn't see any need to 'get my act together'

Can you explain in one concise post why you find/found Mizzy suspicious?

Two words: "The 'pedestal".

Day 1, Mizzy wasn't part of the Capri wagon.
Day 2, Mizzy takes the opportunity to get on her pedestal and attack all the people who were on the Capri wagon.
She claims that she isn't attacking anyone at all since she hasn't voted or FoS'ed.
She is also very vague in her comments about who she is talking to/about. (See, for example, my post 552 on this)

Having been called out for this pedestal thing by me Day 2, it's interesting that Mizzy

didn't

get on her pedestal on Day 3 about people failing to post (thus forcing a no-lynch). It's a tacit admission that I had a point, even if she refuses to vocalise it.

~~~
And, since we're discussing it, my hypothetical scum group at the moment is Yos, Mizzy and ???
Not sure of scum number 3 yet.

[eldarad]

OK. Time to show my hand...

eldarad you answered 2/3 of my points swimmingly, but if you could go back and look at why you found RS townie and explain that it would be great.

I didn't explain it Yesterday for a reason. And, as I said in response to you, in the absence of pressure I saw no reason to explain it Today.
But there are several people now who are voicing suspicion, and I will be in Rome for most of next week so I won't be able to respond if a wagon suddenly appears in my absence.

eldarad seems weird to me. He protected RS, who was in fact town, but it seems like his reason was more "I know he's town" than "I don't think he's scum".

Exactly right.

On Night 2 I received a 'moonshine' - basically a one-shot cop.
It allowed me to identify a werewolf. RS is not a werewolf. Although I don't know who - if anyone - gave the item to me, or even whether the scum are werewolves (if they are not, then the item is basically useless.)

Given that on Day 3 I saw Yos make an unsubstantial case on someone I had reason to believe was a townie, I intervened.

[eldarad]

erm...I was very outspoken Yesterday, and I spoke in pretty clear terms except when the people I believe to be scum were pushing for more info.
Everyone else seemed puzzled as to why I was so sure, but they didn't force the issue.

As to why I just didn't claim, there are so many variables here that I don't know or understand that stepping forward seemed like a bad idea:

Where are the items coming from? Is it from the mod? From a player? If a player, does the 'giver' role rotate from Night to Night? Would I end up accidentally revealing the 'item giver' if they were forced to confirm that, yes, they did give me an item?
Are the scum even werewolves? Did the scum give me the item so that I'd come forward having used a useless item to 'clear' someone? Did Ether give me a useless item to mess with the players' heads?
(It's only when Skruffs mentioned that he had wolfsbane that I was fairly sure that the moonshine I had got had a reasonable chance of detecting scum)

Since I've said this much, I may as well also reveal that I received a second item last Night, called a 'statistic.' It told me how many people currently had 'supplies'.
Do people want to hear the result of that? It wasn't that useful, I thought.

[eldarad]

Eldarad, why do you need to know who gave you the moonshine before you can use the results of your investigation to clear someone? Wouldn't it be better to out the information, considering you are only a ONE SHOT cop, and thus even if you were killed for clearing RS, you would A) lower the chances of a mislynch and B) the giver would be 'protected' for another night?

I don't want to clear someone who isn't really 'clear' - in the sense that the moonshine detects

werewolves

. Whilst I'm fairly sure that it is the same thing, the moonshine doesn't detect

scum

.
Plus, in your scenario, things still don't necessarily turn out well.
If I claimed to be cop, I'd be NK'ed, show up in the Night message as a villager and so my 'innocent' on RS looks really odd.
If I claimed to be a one-shot cop, it's not obvious that I would be NK'ed as a one-shot cop who has used his shot is a VT. And I wouldn't even be confirmed until either me or RS died. Which, since the scum have no incentive to kill either of us (since it clears the other), could drag on for a while.

Also, I received my item last night. For you to receive a "statistic" last night, means there are two 'givers'.

That strikes me as the most likely scenario, yes.
There were five people who had supplies at the beginning of the Night. Since there have only been 3 Nights, if we assume that the 'giver' can give one item per night, there has to be at least two of them. But then I have no reason to even make that assumption - it's just a guess.
Or else the items are distributed by the mod, in which case the whole point is moot.

[eldarad]

But you were defending him because you thought he was cleared. And instead of pushing htat, you were trying to find out who gave it to you, instead??

No. I didn't want to find out who it came from, I just wasn't sure of where it came from and, therefore, how much I could trust it.

This was my issue - it was an all-or-nothing thing. I either came out and watch the sky come down around our ears and hope it would turn out alright, or I could keep quiet and just make it obvious that I didn't like the RS wagon.
I chose the second option.

[eldarad]

How would the sky come down?

Not literally

I just figured there was so much that I didn't know (...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing) and I didn't want to take such a big risk unilaterally.
And I do think it was a big risk...post 1015 is just a sample of the stuff I was trying to work through in deciding what to do.

The fact that the only person trying to force the issue was Yos also made me think twice.

[eldarad]

That is crap. Why would you claim cop or one-shot cop when all that happened was you received an item to give you an investigation?

Well OK. But all I knew

at the time

was that I had been given a one-shot investigation - although as I say, I didn't even know what it was I was investigating - the significance of receiving an item, as opposed to being given an ability or whatever, didn't occur to me.

We still don't really know whether there is an item giver or just the mod allocating items to players.

If you got an item at night, something which presumably would have *nothing at all* do to with your role, and you target Rotten Snitch, and learn that he is not werewolf, and then much more likely to be town, then *you claim that*.

Hmm. Except without knowing where the item came from I could end up wrongly clearing RS. Then, I wouldn't be preventing a mislynch - I'd be preventing a lynch.

This whole item thing seems like whenever you get information from an item there is no drawback to claiming it.

That certainly appears to be the case now. I had no idea if that was the case Yesterday. It's only the combination of the statistic (

five

players had supplies at the start of the Night), Mizzy's one-shot watcher item and Skruffs' wolfsbane that allows us to make that assessment.

If you had claimed this yesterday/(two days ago) you likely could have prevented RS from being lynched -- a player that was pretty confirmed town to you. Why would you not do that? What, at all, was the drawback?

I already mentioned the drawback - preventing RS from being lynched if it turns out RS was some kind of non-werewolf scum means we avoid lynching a scum. It could also end up leading to my lynch, particuarly if it turned out I was the only person who had an 'item' that I had used to clear a scum.

You chose the second option which had already been proved BY ME that it wouldn't work? Sure, I didn't have an item backing me up and all I had was some town tells and instinct about Capri, but I did the same thing you tried and it didn't work. You should have known better.

Ouch. Point taken.

You made it clear you didn't like the RS wagon, but you never really argued against it very hard. If anything, it looked like you just wanted to go down on record against it so you'd look better after he was lynched; you never acted like you were really trying to stop it in any way.

I didn't argue against your

case

as I had no involvement in it. But you, and others, certainly thought I was heavily defending RS Yesterday.
RS seemed to pick up on it, and no-one else forced the issue, so I thought I was being effective.

[eldarad]

Just posting to say my access isn't quite as limited as I feared. See sig for details.

[eldarad]

Hey guys. Just been to the Spanish Steps.

The deadline is coming up, isn't it.

Let's get cracking.

I need to check eldarad's claim that there were 5 items unused at the beginning of the night last night. That would mean that 2 items n0, n1, n2 = 6 items and only his item had been used, correct?

That assumes that there are 2 items given out every Night. Since we don't know whether RS or Capri or Strappado or <the other person who was night-killed who I have forgotten> had items, there's no realistic way of checking.

Besides, I can tell you right now just from memory that Mizzy claims to have used an item on cow 2 nights ago. So that's that theory out the window right off the bat.

I don't really see how you're going to check my claim (Yos, I did say there were 5 people with supplies at the start of the Night - that was the result from using the Statistic) unless everyone who had an item - which assumes that only items are 'supplies' - comes forward.

I'm not convinced that's the best way forward.

[eldarad]

Yos, TT: I'll leave your questions until I get back home. (About 48 hours)
Although maybe you can clarify what you mean by this. Maybe it will make sense once I've woken up, but at the moment I don't understand the question:

Mizzy? Because she made the same mistake that others made day 1 and didn't complain about it (since she was now in the group that made the mistake)?

~~~

We also don't know if that result counted Eld's item or not so we might really be looking for 4, not 5. Does that make sense? I'm half asleep.

It shouldn't have counted the item he received because he received that item after the night began, which was the point that his item claims to have came into affect. So technically his 'censor' was about all the items in play at lynch.

This is a good point. That suggests that there were 6 people including me who had supplies/items to use last Night, plus anyone else who also got an item during or at the start of last Night. That's a lot when there are only 8 people alive...

[eldarad]

I think we already met the deadline, but /post anyway

Just got back, so will catch up properly on all my games over the weekend.

[eldarad]

Obviously if I get a wolfsbane I am using it on Eldarad tonight.

Obviously.
That means I get to slap you, right?

[eldarad]

Out of these 4:
(Eldred, Andy, hadgsfas, and Y)
I'm almost competly certain that 3 of the 4 are scum.

Out of these 6:
{Eldarad, Andy, cow, Y, Mizzy, Yos}
3 are scum. There is also a scenario where TT is scum but isn't suseptible to wolfsbane.

Yos and Mizzy are heavily linking to each other Today, which seems odd for a scumgroup. Although if we are in lylo it doesn't really matter - all they need to do is lynch one of the four on Yos' list and it doesn't matter if we catch 2 scum Tomorrow, as there

won't be

a Tomorrow.

Eldred, could you explain again why you thought it was a good idea for a person with a 1 shot cop item who had gotten an innocent on the person we were about to lynch to not claim that? You had said even before that day that you thought RS was town; if you thought he was town, and knew he was going to be wagoned, why would you investigate him if you weren't willing to confirm him as pro-town if neccessary? Could you explain your thought process for any of that?

I'll try.

So, Day 1 we have a lot of discussion between Skruffs and RS that, to me, doesn't make sense. That's either a smokescreen, distancing, or just irrelevant fluff.
Night 2 I receive an item ('Moonshine'). It doesn't say explicitly what it does - and it certainly isn't what moonshine actually is in RL (ie, home-made alcohol) - but it seems to be able to detect werewolves.
If the mafia are werewolves, then I have a one-shot cop ability.
If the mafia are not werewolves, then I have a red herring.
But then, moonshine was famously made by the

mafia

in Prohibition America...is that a clue, or am I over-thinking?

On the principal of use-it-or-lose-it I use the item immediately on RS, to see if it would shed more light on the Skruffs-RS debate. RS did not react to the moonshine, which I interpreted as an 'innocent' although this was never explicitly stated.

So then I have to decide whether to come forward with a vague investigation that may or may not be a cop result, and that may or may not have been introduced in order to hinder the town, rather than help them.

Given the Yos-led push on RS, and the Yos-led push on me to defend RS, I didn't want to come out with a flimsy innocent result which might not even be accurate and which could give Yosscum more ammunition.
Plus, I have a healthy skepticism when it comes to cop investigations (probably due to my games at UT) and once RS began acting weirdly I was even less sure about the provenance of the item and how accurate it was.
Just at the time that I *might* have intervened (although I still possibly wouldn't have, meh) RS starts going on about how we may be in lylo and so we should lynch him, and all the rest of it. So I kept quiet.

~~~

At this point, the logical part of my brain is telling me that the most likely scenerio is that Eldred is more or less telling the truth about what items he got and what they do, but that he's probably scum anyway.

Why do you think that? You've been saying that you think I am scum for what seems like months now, so the only "new" thing is the items. And if you think I have told the truth about the items, how does that reinforce the opinion that I am scum?

Given your assertions that:

After thinking about it, and after some of Eldred's more recent posts which felt a little less scummy, I came to the conclusion that I was happier with lynching you

[RS]

then lynching Eldred, although I wouldn't mind either one and I think there's a good chance that the two of you are scum together.

I still think there's a very high chance that the mafia in this game is (Eldrarad, Rotton Snitch, +one other), and I'd be quite happy lynching either of you.

how does RS coming up town change your thoughts on the game? Or are you going to continue lynching scummy looking townies until you win?

~~~
Just as an aside, somebody has said something in-thread that suggests to me that they are an item-giver, or at least have seen what some of the items do.

~~~

Or it's possible scum get a 'kill' every night in the form of an itema nd are going to use all of them at once.

PANIC IN THE STREETS!

Maybe. This is all speculation, but if you are right that the scum use items to NK maybe the lack of NKs is due to the scum having a finite number of 'kill' items. Or maybe they only get a kill item some Nights and other items (maybe a RB item, a doc item, a 'give a townie a useless item' item, etc) on other Nights.

~~~

I'd appreciate it if some one would post the thread's time somewhere, so I could compare it with my time zone.

Deadline blocks end at 3am GMT.

[eldarad]

eldarad, so now you're backtracking about the RS innocence? Why didn't you fully explain it earlier as opposed to saying 'I got a one-shot cop on RS he was town.' Why putz around the issue like that?
Also, moonshine. Think about werewolves and how they're usually found out, and then think about the item again.

You mean like this?

It allowed me to identify a werewolf. RS is not a werewolf. Although I don't know who - if anyone - gave the item to me, or even whether the scum are werewolves (if they are not, then the item is basically useless.)

RS didn't react to the moonshine, which - as far as it goes - is a non-werewolf result. My whole point Today has been that I didn't know exactly what the result meant.

And I've thought about the item plenty, although thank you for your input.

[eldarad]

Questoin:
If there were two items that did the same thing (kills a werewolf), why would they have two names?

This is just speculation but Moonshine sounds more like a RBing item to me.

I think the difference is that wolfsbane kills the wolf, whereas moonshine just identifies it.
If I understand you correctly, wolfsbane is like "cop+(vig if guilty)" whereas moonshine is just "cop"

I'm virtually certain that the moonshine didn't work as an RB.

[eldarad]

Eldarad: You should full claim because you are the apathy lynch if nothing else happens.

What do you mean by 'full claim'?
And yes, I see I am the default lynch choice at the moment.

[eldarad]

Just as an aside, somebody has said something in-thread that suggests to me that they are an item-giver, or at least have seen what some of the items do.

<snip>Please no one respond to this.

I wasn't asking for an answer or a validation. I wanted the person concerned to know. The

last

thing I was after was a response.

Also, I note that there have now been 2 votes on Eldred all weekend, when it's 5 votes to lynch. If I was wrong about Eldred, and if me and Guardian are both town, I'd have expected the 3 scum to start to pile on and lynch him by now. The fact that that hasn't happened has made me even more confindent I was right, Eldred is scum.

OK, that's Option A.
Option B is that the scum see jumping on my wagon in order to secure a quicklynch would see them all strung up on Day 5, 6 and 7. Or they're just waiting for some nervous townies to do half the work for them, Capri-style.
Option C is that you're scum.

[eldarad]

Given the absence of kills for the past 2 Nights and the number of items knocking about, I don't think it is appropriate to write-off option B so quickly.

Just a quick warning...I may disappear again for a few days. I've managed to mess up the domain settings on my work laptop the day before I'm due to go on an away job to Hastings, so I may struggle to do stuff like play mafia (or do work...)

[eldarad]

/post

very LA

[eldarad]

/post

back now. Will post later tonight.

[eldarad]

First of all, I apologise for my absence over the past two weeks. Work has taken me away from home for 2 weeks in a row. That's the rollercoaster world of accountancy for you...

I am voting for eldarad because Yosarian2 is convincing, and eldarad hasn't provided a defense explaining his actions. His not claiming the innocent item thing is not something I'd imagine a pro-town player doing.

If it had been as unambiguous as "innocent" and if I had known then what I know now, I wouldn't have thought twice.

Mizzy... you don't appear to be voting yourself... and you seem to be detracting away from something that can actually effect the game, without offering a counter discussion thing.. and not even voting..

Just a big red flag there

Yeah, you're right. When was the last time that happened? Oh yeah, Day 1.

I had a dream that I got an items... it was pens with the ink all used up, or somehting, and the mod had accidentally left hte name of hte person who had first gotten the items... named Count_Vakir or something. Anyways there's no user by that name on hte site so it wasn't premonition or anything. Shucks.

What?!

According to wikipedia, Vakir is Old Norse for "hole" so that doesn't help.
Although Count Vakir sounds like a

vampire

. Just saying...

Well, part of the reason I was attacking him was that yesterday he looked like a scum who already knew Eldred was town and who was therefore avoiding the wagon without actually trying very hard to stop it or to encoruage anyone else to be lynched. I think the claim was a defense against that, an excuse for why he already knew RS was town, but it dosn't at all answer the rest of the point, which is the question of why he didn't try all that hard to stop the lynch then.

Either you think I'm telling the truth about the items, or you don't. You can't have it both ways. If you think I made up the Moonshine as a 'defence' then say so. But then you need to reconcile that with your statement that:

I think you're probably telling more-or-less the truth about the items you got; it's probably be too risky to make something like that up out of whole cloth

~~~

I'm not completely sure about eldarad. I'm really torn between "Scared scum" and "Really bad player" (Note that RS was even less logical than eldarad is, and he was town).

erm, I can't say I like either of those options actually
What do you think is "really bad" about my play? Or else, what makes you think I am scared (scum or otherwise?)

Remember how I had a list of 4 people, and said that 3 of the 4 of them must be scum? If we lynch every day, and the scum miss at least one more kill before the end of the game, then we have 4 lynches left, and are therefore basically guarenteed to win.

OK, except that the list has 6 people on it.

If I have to nail my colours to the mast right now, I'd go with

vote Mizzy

Not only do I think that we'll lynch scum, it will also expose Yos' "list of 4" for the sham it really is.

[eldarad]

/post

[eldarad]

Early game, I didn't like skruffs tunnel vision of zindaras, and it seemed like a fairly weak argument. I also didn't like eldarad's coasting.

How was I coasting in the early game? Or do you think all the flak I got on Day 2 about the Capri lynch was unfounded?

Then we get to the items, and, I mean, eldarad's behavior is exactly what I'd expect scum to do when given an item.

"Well, shit, I have a one-shot investigation, that's not doing me much good. Even if I claim it now, the town might not believe me. So I'll just keep quiet. Oh, wait, skruffs had an item? And they all believe him? I guess I investigated. . . rotten snitch. That won't tell them anything if they lynch me."

There's a disconnect in your thought process there - I either made up the result, or I actually used the item. I can't do both/neither.
Plus, you seem to have missed the point that it wasn't a one-shot cop. Unless you know that the scum are werewolves, in which case I'll defer to your judgement.

I do find it interesting that you've been mostly attacking me for quite a while now, and yet now you turn back and vote mizzy instead, right after Skruffs says he "thinks she's scum".

1. Consensus lynches are the only lynches we can get during the deadline phase
2. I think Mizzy and Yos are scumbuddies. In the absence of any additional information I will contribute to either or both lynches to the extent that they look possible. I also think it's really important that the artifical restriction created by Yos' "list" is broken down ASAP.
So if that means moving my vote across to you, Yos, then I have no problem with that.

[eldarad]

Mizzy, why aren't you voting for eldarad?

Certainly a question woth asking. I'd be interested in hearing the answer.

TSPN, Were/Are you satisfied with Mizzy's answer to "why aren't you voting for Capri?" on Day 1 (post 445)?

[eldarad]

If you weren't sure that RS is town, why did you protect him?

Option A was claiming my item and potentially clearing a non-werewolf scum.
Option B was to keep quiet and not say anything about anything. (Which, incidentally, would have been a much better play for me if I was scum.)
I chose the third way, which was to do something in between. Try to keep him alive if I could without referring to my item. You'll also notice that I kept an open mind about RS despite my knowledge from the Moonshine - when he started acting weird my support for him vanished.

TSPN, how do you explain the fact that I referred to the item at all? If I had this investigation item that was useless to me, why would I use it and then act on the results?

[eldarad]

You know, maybe it's just me, but having RS cleared of being one type of scum is extremely valuable information. Sure, he could have been a different type of scum, but still, knowing he was NOT option A would have been really frickin' nice.

That only works if you know that werewolves are a type of scum.

If I had that knowledge when I used the Moonshine, I wouldn't have hesitated to tell the town of my non-werewolf result. But I didn't have that knowledge.

[eldarad]

The daytalk was awesome while it was around. There's a QuickTopic, which I'll post after 24 hours if none of the scum ask me not to, and Eldarad and Y were PMing early on Day 1 because they were worried Mizzy was a mole for some reason.

Yeah, that was my fault. I was convinced Mizzy was acting scummy

in our daytalk

which got me all paranoid.
I'm happy for Ether to post the Quicktopic link, and the PM's I sent to Y.

TSPN called it absolutely right - it just shows that being right isn't enough
I was pretty pleased with the epic distancing I had with Mizzy, although as it turned out TSPN saw right through it.

It was a very confusing setup, but I enjoyed it.