Mini #534 - Vegetable Mafia (Game Over!)

[gorckat]

Hey folks! I've been keeping up since around page 4 when I first PM'd Aimee to replace in. I'll need a re-read since I now have a role and know infinitely more than I did before (something versus nothing ).

I'll do my best to answer any questions directed at my predecessor and will post today.

[gorckat]

gorckat, who did you replace?

Northjayhawk. I just sat down to do my re-read as a player.

[gorckat]

Highlights and observations in brief:

23: Why didn't Oman jsut shift to Phate when Phate voted NJH for voting Oman?

43-44: something about Y and ryan pulling people of souplfy gets my eye

I think NJH made sense questioning Oman's sef bandwagon- Oman did take getting called out on more seriously than seemed warratned.

Crub and destructor's votes on ryan both look dicey.

During my spectator reading, I believed destructor's claim that the ryan vote was a townie gambit/ruse. Still do.

100: Agree with Oman that this post sucks. There's no logical basis for it at all:

1) Perhaps Y and his partners weren't on it at all?
2) Perhaps 3 scum were on it?
3) Perhaps there's only two scum and it was one and one?

Too much speculation.

~113: I think Phate was trying awfully hard to make destructor look scummy. Ryan and WhoMe jumped right on, too.

122 and 130: I do, in a contrarian fashion, agree with Phate and think it looked like krahven was giving destructor an out, not that he needed it. He'd already explained the ruse.

Phate had a problem wth krahven's 124 (saying Phate thought destructor was "obviously scum"). Looking back at Phate's recent posts, it looks pretty clear you think destructor is scummy. Why else say things like, "Wow, way to give your buddy an out, huh, kravhen?"

~138: Second Y that krahven looks jumpy/over-reactive.

Fascinating back and forth between ryan and Phate, now.

I agree that ryan has some follower like reasons for voting destructor (Y nailed them in 152), but Phate doubles back around saying destructor's scummy but not that scummy and not as scummy as ryan.

186: Crub appears! And adds...nothing, really. Lurker.

189: Oh, wait. He thinks destructor slipped up.

196: souplfy does the same, but seems to do it little better than Crub.

199: souplfy seems to have been scum fishing with his vote on destructor

214: Holy crap- Day 1 massclaim? WTF is soup thinking?

215: Not sure why phate would claim there...

Same for tdp...

I'll have to address this whole Phate/ryan business in my next post, but for the moment:

For crying out loud, look at my join date.

Appeal to Newbness

I'll come to conclusions shortly. I need to digest.

[gorckat]

Absolutely not.

Thoughts?

Yes -- there's no reason not to encrypt your role at the start of the game, which is usually a breaking strategy. We discussed this in an earlier thread (named "ethics: codes", I think). There should be a rule against this stuff, but it's hard to say where to draw the line.

I think it is against the spirit of the game.

[gorckat]

Y and his partners? What are you saying here?

Throwing out various ways his '2 scum on the wagon' could be way off. I didn't even look to see if Y was on the wagon, but just threw the scenario out there.

unvote

vote: thinktank

i will give Phat ethe benefit of the doubt that he didn't know what the safe claim was and its definetly not enough to vote him.

True its scummy

but considering he admitted he didnt know what it was and his join date implies this as well, I don't think he has enough strikes on him to lynch as ryan stated.

But seriously, stop coming up with these oddball ideas, they aren't helping town at all: safe claim and the encrypted claim? really?

Phate's actions are definetly scummy,

being new or not is besides that point however don't hammer him yet

Each section, in sequence, weaves all over the place. Is he scummy for what he's done or not? Is it enough to have him at -2 or not?

[gorckat]

I think I understand think's thoughts:

He has done enough to be at a lynch -2. He has not done enough to be lynched.

unvote

vote: Phate

[gorckat]

You already said that...

[gorckat]

I feel like there is a subtlety between Y and ryan I'm missing.

Y: In your last post, you quoted ryan saying what the two slips were, and yourself clarifying, I assume...I don't see any difference between ryan's post and your clarification, and I skimmed back to the original events and don't see the difference between you and ryan there, either.

Can you (or someone) just restate it for me? It has to be as obvious as a Mate in One, but I'm just not seeing it.

[gorckat]

Thank you, Y. That makes it a good deal clearer.

Looking back, I think its clear Phate had no idea what "Safe Claim" meant in our terms. There are a few phrasing oddities based on his claim and a few posts after it, but not the way ryan has held on to his second slip.

[gorckat]

Closed setup. The scum will all claim lettuce (vanilla).

His initial claim.

So you're scum, or more likely, I was wrong in my assumption that all vanillas got lettuce.

@tdp when she questioned his claim.

So NOW, any vanilla townie who's not lettuce or cucumber (and evidently, rolenames are unique) will know that we're both confirmed vanilla townies. *grins*

After tdp claimed.

I don't get it. The scum don't have a safe claim. If they did, the way I'd know it would be to be a vanilla, in a game where all vanillas have the same rolename.

I meant that if all the vanillas were lettuce, that would be giving the scum a safe claim... but I also couldn't know that unless I was vanilla

.

Something in these last two just don't jive with the others for me. He came out saying scum would just claim lettuce, but later says they don't have a safe claim because all the vanillas are different. Then his last quote, that if all vanillas were the same that he'd have given them a safe claim...

I don't know. Something about it just seems odd, but it could just be his initial lack of understanding the term Safe Claim causing me to read everything later wrong, even while trying to account for it.

[gorckat]

With that understanding, why did you claim in the first place?

[gorckat]

Why?

[gorckat]

You weren't under any pressure

to

claim.

[gorckat]

If all vanillas were lettuce, and nobody had mentioned that yet,

how would the scum know to claim it?

[gorckat]

So in your mind at that time:

1) No one had said all vanillas were lettuce

and

2) Scum would claim lettuce

[gorckat]

Then that was simply selfish. I don't think there was any malice in your actions, at this point.

unvote

[gorckat]

Eh, I'm damn suspicious of phate at this point.

Vote Phate

Can you elaborate? At this point, I see what he did as a genuine mistake.

[gorckat]

Not being pro town IS anti town Phate no matter how you spin it.

This is coming up everywhere, it seems. Sort of like the old square/rectangle line:

Pro-scum is always anti-town, but anti-town is not always pro-scum.

How did Phate's claim help scum? What, besides the clumsy and selfish claim, makes Phate a good lynch?

[gorckat]

MOD

: Can we get some prods and an update on the replacements in the first post (I know the latter is depndent on you getting powers to do so.)

[gorckat]

Kick.

[gorckat]

'll prod any specific people you want

Crub, WhoMe?, krahven and thedragonprincess didn't post at all on page 15. Please start there.

Thanks MeMe on updating the first post!

[gorckat]

And some people stalk you between games, no less

ryan: So discuss something. Right now it looks like you are trying to appear active and participatory. What's on your mind?

[gorckat]

vote: thinktank

Jesus- its

been

"started". Why are you seemingly random voting now? Yes, there are people lurking or inactive, but that doesn't mean everything stated is useless.

Why weren't you voting Phate when you said what he'd done was worthy of being at -2, but he wasn't?

[gorckat]

I said he was worthy of being at lynch-2. If I had voted him then he would have been at lynch -1, which he was not worthy of at that point.

But he

wasn't

at -2. I put him at -3 (three posts later) to see if you would get on him.

After the grilling he's gotten I doubt he's scum, but you seemed to not want to touch it at all, despite you're thinking he should have been more pressured.

[gorckat]

Like I've said- what you did was selfish. It was anti-town, but I do not believe you did it as scum.

[gorckat]

Wow, this thread is hot and stinky.

Wow chill pill's needed all around methinks.

vote Phate

you're way into negative townie points now.

Can you back that up with something substantive?

I've been burned thinking someone is scum just because they flew off the handle, and I haven't been convinced by anyone that the claim thing was scummy.

[gorckat]

But that's not to say other things Phate has done aren't questionable.

Like what? Without looking back, I'm drawing a blank.

gorckat: Do you believe that anti town is bad for town? Do you believe distracting is anti town?

Yes and yes, but they need to be considered with other stuff before they are labeled scummy. Anything anti-town can be scummy, but not all of it is.

I do think Phate's claim was distracting and anti-town, but it was done for selfish reasons, and it has yielded a lot of discussion, and has earned you a handful of votes for how you've latched onto the arguments around it all.

In fact, I need to re-read the pre-claim stuff, since that's where you originally earned votes, iirc.

[gorckat]

MOD:

Are krahven, soupfly and WhoMe? getting prodded/replaced?

[gorckat]

NM on krahven, just saw your post re his request /out.

[gorckat]

I burned some time going back and see

1) What Phate had done that might be seen as scummy (bulldogging destructor over the non-vote-vote, even as others were letting it go), though I think it's not damning
2) ryan pushing hard for Oman and destructor lynches (barning opinions back then, as well)

vote: ryan

It's not just hooking up on other's reasons, as you implied was my reason for voting you, even though I didn't (but I did notice how squirmy you're getting, and got early on). The way you went after Oman and destructor smacked of 'easy lynch' motives looking to end the day with a minimum of fuss and discussion also looks scummy.

[gorckat]

as far as the game is concerned i'm comfortable with my whome vote.

the ryan wagon, i'm not so sure. my inclination is townie. i think our scum are flying under the radar.

I don't think you've made a case for WhoMe?.

What makes you think ryan is town?

[gorckat]

I'm down with a name claim, and second soupfly going first.

I'm not surprised Y went down- he was the most aggressive towards ryan. thinktank surprises me a bit. If it were a vig, I think there were scummier looking targets, and for an SK there are people practically confirmed that make more sense than a useless player.

[gorckat]

tdp: Cucumber
Phate: Lettuce

soupfly: Broccoli
Crub: Spinach
destructor: Brussel Sprout
WhoMe?: Cabbage
Oman: Green Beans

gorckat: Green Pepper

Next, and last: Bookitty

[gorckat]

When I wrote up everyone's claim, I almost wrote Brussels Sprout as well- it's what the FireFox spellchecker recommends.

[gorckat]

When I saw Y was a cauliflower, I thought "isn't that a white veggie?" Google Image showed them to have green leaves, which I'd never seen. I doubt our own perceptions can be applied to Aimee's ideas. Say "pepper" and I think of a jalapeño. Others might think of the black powder you sprinkle on stuff.

I agree the apparent (can you confirm, tdp?) lack of color specification on Pea (and, to a lesser extent Lettuce- there's red lettuce, irrc) is different, but its what I am- a Green Pepper. I'm sure there's a reason the color is specified.

[gorckat]

soupfly, why do you find "Green Bean(s)" less scummy than "Green Pepper".

Good question. I'd forgotten about the Bean.

[gorckat]

Sorry. I was thinking of Bookitty.

[gorckat]

a reread of his posts in isolation, which I recommend.

I did so earlier today. What are you seeing that makes his claim so scummy?

[gorckat]

i also find the green bean(s) suspicious. it was slightly less troubling than the pepper because a green bean is not just a bean that is of the color green. in other words green beans and other types of beans are different morphologically whereas a green pepper and a yellow pepper differ only in color.

Perhaps there's mafia peppers, thus the color specification. Same for the bean.

Since I wasn't around, I agree the mason should stay out of sight. If they can confirm themselves later, then they're gold in the endgame.

destructor:

Did

you get a guilty on Crub?

[gorckat]

How is this different from outright asking me if I'm a cop?

My bad.


destructor: Are you the cop? If you've caught Crub, then say so so we can string him up. Two scum in two days seems pretty good to me.

[gorckat]

vote destructor

I find that to have been an anti-town move. Muddying the waters is not a good thing in my view.

Had you voted him after the fake-vote earlier? That was certainly water muddying, although I think it was useful.

I don't like the half/fake insinuation of a cop claim- I don't see how its a pro-town move. The fake vote worked because there was a bread crumb asserting it was planned. This just looks reckless.

[gorckat]

Checking in. One of my dogs died so I haven't been up to playing. I hope to be on either tonight or sometime tomorrow.

[gorckat]

vote: soupfly

1) If you really think I'm guilty, aren't you better off pushing me in spite of a lack of support
2) Moving to Oman for weaker reasons than the 'green' thing- an 's'
3) "

the

NK" (think tank)...not "one of the NKs"? That seems like you slipped letting on a personal involvement in think's death

[gorckat]

This is semantics and is almost as much a reach as the 's' argument. Points 1 and 2 you raise were good enough to base a vote on. Was 3 really worth bringing up?

A borderline semantics thing would be "if I was town, would I have done X" or something like that. What soup said is more significant- it implies an involvement in selecting think.

[gorckat]

unvote

Need to re-read a little to figure out where to go, then.

[gorckat]

FoS: WhoMe?

Carrots compliment roasts in a lovely fashion (stateside, at least).

I didn't vote because you do make a good point on tdp. I need to see her response before moving either way. Both of you seem promising lynches at the moment.

[gorckat]

vote: WhoMe?

1) I've never seen spinach roasted with beef, and its been shown that your palette and tastes don't line up with other players, and may not line up with the mod
2) There are three claims that don't roast well with beef according to your list, which means A) there'd have to be four scum and B) all three living scum claimed non-roasting veggies or C) if it is 3 mafia + SK, then they the SK also happened to claim non-roasting veggie

I think there's too many coincidences needed to make your split a possibility, and I think you're pushing it from the, shocker, safe side of the split. Its win-win for scum because it doesn't immediately bite you in the ass when you lynch wrong, and if you put one of your partners on the other side, then hitting them would get you an extra day to nab a townie.

[gorckat]

Sorry for the typos- I'm trying to get out the door to work. I can clarify if any one can't make sense of that

[gorckat]

View his posts alone (the combo boxes at the bottom of the page). He's got a big one that goes over the claims and ones that could be served with a roast beef and ones that aren't.

The problem is the large coincidence it would require- that there are either 4 scum or there are three scum and an SK and in both cases- they ALL claimed non-roasting veg.

[gorckat]

I pulled 5 quarters out of my pocket the other day- 3 were minted in 1995. Can I conclude that 60% of quarters were minted in that year?

JANUARY

PLANT:, Broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, capsicums, cauliflower, celery, cucumber, eggplant, leek, lettuce, parsnip, pumpkin, silverbeet, late sweetcorn and tomato.

The claims also fit with things planted in January, per a quick Google.

[gorckat]

The other people who are town know whether or not THEY fit the pattern

That's what I've been saying...I don't, ergo: roast dinner veg != town.

[gorckat]

Also- the setup is greens vs non-greens. Is it common in theme games to layer factions like that between a public and private (mod knowledge) division?

Is "I'll tell everyone its green vs non-green, but it's really roast veg vs non raost veg!" bastard modding?

[gorckat]

Just for kicks, I Googled the terms: Britain, Green Pepper, Roast Dinner

On the first page were three recipes using peppers in roasts (one is red, but still- its a capsicum). One of the wesites is Yahoo UK, another a Canadian one (I think...they're close in some culture, aren't they?) and Food Network.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 114AAoGyEj
http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes ... 72,00.html
http://www.tdc.ca/sundayrb.htm

[gorckat]

Yeah, that was me with the January thing

I would much rather us go after the person pushing a theory that requires so much coincidence (that the scum all claimed the incorrect category of veg).

A thought I just had: assuming the scum used safe claims and WhoMe was right, it would require the mod giving the scum claims obviously not like the others, that is- non roast veg, which

does

seem bastardly to me.

[gorckat]

I think this is potentially LYLO, assuming 2 scum and an active 2nd killer (ie, not a one-shot vig):

7- lynch town
6- scum kill 2nd killer
5- 2nd killer kills town
4- left alive and 2 scum could win

I hadn't pegged Oman for Cop at all, but it makes sense to me in a weird way.

FoS: destructor

for the half claim/not a claim when fingering Crub.

[gorckat]

gorckat and tdp seem to have forgotten at that I admitted I wasn't the cop, too.

One of the reasons I didn't vote you. What you did was, as said before, water muddying, and could have drawn Oman out. Looking back to see if he dropped clues as to whom he looked at night one, there were a few times he strongly hinted at being a unique role (such as saying he knew why his name wouldn't match anyone else's).

Drawing him out in the day could only help scum, which makes the whole half claim thing fishy.

I was, and am, willing to see it as a gambit like the fake vote, but it still warrants attention.

I agree that soup is near confirmed (like 99.9% with the breadcrumb), and Phate I think is because the claim was so sloppy.

In the neutral/slightly scummy rank I'd put destructor and tdp, both with flags raised (tdp's claim could have been scum shooting in to establish themselves).

Crub and Kitty I have to re-read to get a handle on. They've both slipped under the radar. destructor could have been making some space between he and Crub. I'll have to look for links.

[gorckat]

mod: prod Bookitty

, please? (I don't recall anyone asking last page/Day 3)

She hasn't posted in almost 2 weeks. Her claim of a limited amount per posts looks dicey because her posts don't look particularly short in context, and her #6 seems longer than I'd expect a limit to be set at.

[gorckat]

I'm also investigation proof so I can't even clear myself that way.

What does that mean? How is a town role investigation proof?

vote: Bookitty

I doubt there's more than one role that fusses with investigations like that.

[gorckat]

Yay for 17 posts of spam

[gorckat]

Also, I'm not liking the way you seem to be cleaning up the edges of your claim in each post. First you didn't mention the restriction of 2 posts per page or the 150-word limit, then you didn't mention the three strikes rule. You also only mentioned being investigation proof in 680 but in your last post expand that to all night actions besides nightkills.

I refuse to say QFT, but that's what I mean.

I'd imagine a person with a restriction like that would be trying to max out each post, especially once people know you have one.

[gorckat]

Given the Oman night kill I think it's safe to assume the second killer is pro-town

Even though Oman was heavily hinting/blatantly saying he had a unique role which may have threatened both mafia and an SK?

And I think Kitty can post again...

[gorckat]

Even though Oman was heavily hinting/blatantly saying he had a unique role which may have threatened both mafia and an SK?

Was he? Where? I noticed the unique role thing, but then we all have unique roles.

There were two places I saw it, clearly in re-reading after his death (I was looking to see if he name dropped who he might have looked at N1, which I didn't see so clearly).

A popcorn nameclaim? We haven't seen a single double up of names yet. We have phate as lettuce and TDP as cucumber. I know why name doesn't double.

I thought otherwise, and mostly due to speculation on the setup, as (you'll find later) my rolename is unique.

gorckat, if Boo's town, who would your next suspect be?

tdp and you. I speculated earlier that tdp could have been scum cashing her safe claim in right away when Phate claimed and your half claim was the next most suspect thing in the game.

[gorckat]

Have you actually found anything linking tdp and myself? How conditional is my scumminess to hers and vice versa?

I don't think you're scum together; tdp has been clearly against you with the half claim.

Assuming I'm not scum, where would you look next?

If you and Kitty came up town, I'd be looking at tdp and Crub. I'd be surprised if Phate were scum and soup has a solid claim.

[gorckat]

I think scum would have stayed silent then, or claimed a reread was needed, rather than add a vote to an investigation-proof scum.

I believe that's WIFOM. ryan looked like he was going down, so you could have jumped on to try and get as far away as possible.

I think I expressed my suspicions of thedragonsprincess before, due to her comments which seemed to be seeking a counterclaim to destructor's half-claim. I guess there could be a destructor/thedragonsprincess scumteam. My only other suspect is Phate, due to his weird claim for no apparent reason, and scumminess surrounding the ryan lynch, but I don’t see him as a possible scumpartner for thedragonsprincess, so that makes that theory less likely.

Why did you ignore the possibility of Phate/destructor? You think Phate could be scum with one, but not the other?

I think if anyone else has questions, they should get them in before you post again, to maximize your next post.

[gorckat]

Hang on tight- this game is rollin

[gorckat]

Link between Destructor and thedragonsprincess:
here
and
here

I'd read that as them being opposed. Would make sense for you to link them if you're scum with either (for distancing, obv).

[gorckat]

If tdp is scum, who do you think the other scum is? Likewise, If I am scum, who do you think the other scum is?

If tdp is scum, then its Kitty or Crub.

If you are scum, my money is on Kitty with Crub being the next choice.

Kitty hits both ways for me and I don't buy her role explanations. I think she's a better lynch than you or tdp.

[gorckat]

Your suspicions seem to be based on individual incidents as opposed to any significant connections between suspects.

And I'm scum with...?

Taking into account that you've not shown us any connections between Boo and either tdp or me

I've said I think you and tdp are not scum together. Why would I show links there? You're linking to Kitty now by defending this way. Given her "post restriction" and tdp's lack of posts, its hard to see how people react to her being attacked, which is a good chunk of what I'd use to guide me.

Similarly, you seem to have thrown Crub onto the end of those lists, giving no indication of what would make you feel that way

Process of elimination leaving him out of me, soup and Phate. I don't recall him doing anything suspect so far, so he falls to the bottom of the list.

[gorckat]

After a reread, I don't think ryan would run screaming at destructor's lynch like he did if destructor was one of ryan's scumbuddies.

Good point. destructor is not as likely scum as I'd thought. I hadn't re-read ryan since early Day 2, iirc. I'd been working on the last two days interactions.

ryan could have been counting on investigative immunity, assuming he had it, given people were starting to back off destructor (that is, ryan was hoping to get looked at on purpose by going after someone seen as pro-town in order to clear himself), but that has too many moving pieces to be forethought that deep that early, imo.

I rank everyone (most to least scummy):

Kitty (not buying her post restriction or investigation proof claim)

(one of these two is Kitty's partner)
tdp (could have burned her safe claim to confirm herself by jumoing in after Phate)
Crub (has slid under the radar, but hasn't done anything notably scummy)


destructor (now seeming not likely scum, given way ryan went after him)

Phate (likely town due to clumsy claim)
soup (mason)

[gorckat]

WhoMe is a pick, and my mind has changed on Crub to put him on the possiblescumlist too.

@Phate: No. It looks like Crub hadn't been looked at.

[gorckat]

Phate really seems to have not known what a safe claim was. Since scum seem to have safe claims, perhaps they knew that vanillas had different names, so tdp jumped in to do what Phate did- clear herself.

Its speculation on who I think Kitty's likely partner is.

[gorckat]

Read Phate's 42nd post and on from there. Its apprarent he had no idea what safe claim meant.

[gorckat]

He thinks to himself oh boy Lettuce is a safe claim all the Vanilla's in the town must be Lettuce.

Its also possible the scum were given multiple names since they survived the popcorn.

In fact his selfish rush to clear himself at the first opportunity makes more sense for him to be scum than what it does for him to be town.

I thought that for awhile, as well, but now dismiss it.

I don't think the way destructor/phate went after ryan and vice versa looks like they were scum together.

[gorckat]

She's tied for my top two as well. She's been pretty useless today, not offering anything.

unvote vote: thedragonprincess

[gorckat]

Why would scum make up a PR like that it would be insane

But pretty hard to disprove.

You do realise that's a hammer right?

No, it wasn't. It was putting one of my top suspects at -1. Sorry I wasn't explicit, but I assumed people were following along.

@soup and Crub: I think it unlikely that two scum would burn their claims the way tdp and Phate would have had to for tdp to be reeling in Phate. Too much risk if they were wrong about it.

if you dont want to give people at least a day to respond, then you might as well lynch me now because I'm tired of stressing out over trying to find the time to post in between working 8 hour days and taking 5 classes in college

Ignoring the Appeal to Emotion, I was considering the total of what you'd contributed today- very little.

[gorckat]

What is it with townies self-hammering this game? If you're gonna go down, let scum do it so they can be found, dammit!

FoS: Bookitty

, whom I should of stuck with based on the crazy PR. I also don't buy the night-action proof claim. That combination sounds a lot like an SK, which doesn't fit here (unless there have been a ridiculous amount of duplicate kills).

[gorckat]

I think Gorckat is saying he doesn't believe my post restriction, because he thinks it only fits an SK.

Correct.

That said, I'd like Gorckat to explain how it's helpful for scum to fake such a post restriction.

Because clearly people have been willing to believe it and let you slide.

[gorckat]

Are you still considering Phate as possible scum at this point? If not I'd like to know why not.

What does that matter? You've already said you think the last two scum are Kitty and me.

[gorckat]

@Gorckat: I certainly have not been allowed to slide on it, since it's the primary and apparently only reason that you've attacked me. Do you think a PR is inherently scummy?

If its the primary, then its not the only, is it?

As I said in 756, I don't buy the restriction

combined

with the night-proof claim. That sounds a lot, to me, like an SK.

Why

do you have that post restriction?

Yes- I'm role-fishing.

Looking back at the kills:

Y was very pro-town, so it makes sense an SK and scum might both want to off him.
think could have been killed by the vig, or crossed with vig and scum or SK.
Oman, as I pointed out, was breadcrumbing power, but was also suspecious to some, so could have been a triple kill.
Destructor was also very pro-town, and may have breadcrumbed vig (I haven't looked, yet).

Destructor could have tried to off Kitty last night, or held back.

If there were only two scum, an SK is plausible. Mini 433 was like that- 2 scum, SK and several pro-town roles (1-shot vig, doc, gunsmith and tracker). With a full-blown cop and vig, I think it'd be balanced.

[gorckat]

Are you seriously advocating an SK and Vig?

If des was a one-shot, then the setup is

very

similar to Mini 433.

While I do find the "immune to investigations" thing with kitty to be off, again I just can't see scum with that PR.

Mafia, no, but an investigate immune (comes up innocent?), NK immune SK...perhaps.

[gorckat]

Also, the presence of masons makes a full-blown vig less damaging. They could recover from a triple kill Night One pretty quickly (assuming they weren't taken out) and get a better idea of who's what.

[gorckat]

I'm not backpedaling anything. In fact, I'm more inclined to think we have two competing scum left.

I've been more willing to embrace the idea of an SK recently, and the Mason thing was an idea I had this morning on my way to work.

[gorckat]

Are you seriously advocating an SK and Vig? Town could possibly win night 1 and the mafia could win day 2 in the scenario you are proposing.

Ah- I see what you're saying. I read this part wrong.

While true the scum could be taken out Night One, that option existed in Mini 433, as well, plus Kitty has claimed NK immune, iirc, which makes the one-kill nights plausible in other ways.

[gorckat]

That's what I get for speculating from memory.

[gorckat]

Gorckat: Crub already pointed this out, but I'm NOT nightkill immune, read here. I NEVER claimed that I was.

Which I acknowldged in my last post.

The only reasons you've given for your suspicion are my PR and my roleclaim.

What claim? All you've claimed is the ability to stall conversation at will and drag things out!

Are you even hunting scum at all? In your “unlucky SK” scenario, is Crub or Phate the remaining scum, Gorckat?

Here's the main reason I think you're full of crap: I'm a Miller. Green Peppers become Red Peppers. I'm a bitter, old pepper.

I agree the apparent (can you confirm, tdp?) lack of color specification on Pea (and, to a lesser extent Lettuce- there's red lettuce, irrc) is different, but its what I am- a Green Pepper. I'm sure there's a reason the color is specified.

I doubt there's more than one role that fusses with investigations like that.

These were my attempts to breadcrumb it. The second I had meant to say "one role

left

", but felt I couldn't correct it without having to out myself then.

There was also a poll in MD that started after this game and I had replaced in. It asked if a Miller should be told what they are. I have not voted so I could used screen caps to vote that they should, since I was, if that'd help convince anyone.

I hope it is also clear why I was more suspect of Kitty in all my combinations yesterday. My -1 on tdp was to hopefully get reactions out of Kitty, and because I did really think she was scum.

I can in no way imagine 3 roles that neuter the cop in a 12-person game.

I had hoped my SK speculation would provoke you to claim something easily disprovable, but it seems that you want us to believe you're a townie that doesn't investigate like one.

vote: BooKitty

[gorckat]

EBWOP: you're a

vanilla

townie that doesn't investigate like one.

[gorckat]

Where have you been? soupis the other mason.

FoS: Phate

I could have been wrong about you, after all.

[gorckat]

Is everyone else on workweek only access?

[gorckat]

And why is that? Because Kitty has claimed Night-Immune Conversation Stopper? Are you finding that more likely than a straight Miller?

[gorckat]

I was pretty sure yesterday that gorckat was town, but after a reread I ask myself why and all I can come up with is that he was the first to realise I was newbie town rather than slipping scum. But now I think of that, scum would obviously know that, and so much the better if they led the town in realising that, especially if the lynch didn't look like it would go through.

Phate, this reads like you're suggesting the first person to think you were town is scum. That makes no sense.

And how about that mason thing...what was up with asking for a claim when it was done days ago?

[gorckat]

Read it again. I'm suggesting that the first person to think I was town isn't necessarily town themselves, not that they're automatically scum.

So, I could be a survivor with knowledge of who is who? How is the first person to think you were town not town but not scum?

I missed his claim. That's worthy of suspicion?

Sure is, especially when this sequence happened a ways back:

i am the other mason. i am y's mason partner.

I'll buy that.

soupfly - I would have bought your claim without the crumb.

I believe soupfly's claim. Although a risky move to make,

I believe it, and I think it was the right play.

And then:

So soupfly's out

[gorckat]

Read it again. I'm suggesting that the first person to think I was town isn't necessarily town themselves, not that they're automatically scum.

I see what you were saying here. I had read your statement as an absolute "he's not town, but might not be scum". Obviously, that wasn't making sense.

On soupfly- "missing" a claim implies you never saw it happen. You clearly saw it happen and twice acknowledged it at the time of its occurence.

Rather than come right out and say, "Oh, yeah- forgot about that", you ignored it one post, said you missed it the next, and have backpedaled to forgot about it.

Its the difference between inattentive and forgetful; the former is scummy, the latter a null-tell.

[gorckat]

If, as you say, forgetfulness is a nulltell, why did you FoS me there? You're being very inconsistent.

How would I know you were just forgetting when I pointed out soup's claim? If you had come out and said that, I'd have thought nothing else of it. Instead you ignored it, said you missed it, said you forgot it.

Its your backpedaling on it I don't like.

@Kitty: Its either Crub or Phate, obv.

For either one, they need you to out the vote out before they can hammer safely. By announcing at what point you will do it, they can be ready to do the deed.

I don't like Phate's recent ignorance of a confirmed mason hanging around, but I haven't pinned either one to you, yet, because I just want you gone after I blew it yesterday and went after tdp.

[gorckat]

Soupfly is confirmed town. So that leaves Phate, Crub and Gorckat. If Gorckat were town, with his vote on me, then a Phate-Crub scumteam has had ample time by now to jump on that and quicklynch me. Thus Phate and Crub can't be a team; Gorckat must be scum.

I didn't think I had to break this down, but with Crub following I do: replace gorc for Kitty and it pans out the same.

[gorckat]

MOD: Is it too soon to ask you prod soupfly?

[/One post closer to Kitty being "allowed" to post again]

[gorckat]

vote: Gorckat

Its a little g. Like this:

vote: gorckat

[gorckat]

Oops.

unvote
vote: gorckat

[gorckat]

OMG the suspense all day at work was killing me!

Second Patrick on the town self-hammers. They were awful.

I couldn't decide if I should have self-hammered at the end of the last page, or let it go like I did. Once I realized it was pretty unanimous that everyone had me as scum, I just did it.

I was hoping my miller claim was seeded well enough (I

had

been trying to breadcrumb it) and audacious enough to work, but the whole SK thing was a giant mistake on my part. I felt I could double talk myself enough to make it seem like a trappy, if bad, play until I realized both the people I had Kitty as scum with were killed

Day 1 I tried to find a way to go on the sword for ryan way too late. I was thinking that if I went down and he got looked at, that he might get by. Destructor no doubt would have taken him out.

Oh- and major LOL's on my part:

She's tied for my top two as well. She's been pretty useless today, not offering anything.

unvote vote: thedragonprincess

Not to be pushy, but I just tried to throw myslef on the sword quicklynching tdp...can yo lock the thread before people get to have a hissy fit :p Pretty please Laughing

Unless I'm counting it wrongly, you only put her at 3 votes. Did you miss the Bookitty unvote?

Crap Laughing

Thanks.

You do realise that's a hammer right?

No, it wasn't. It was putting one of my top suspects at -1. Sorry I wasn't explicit, but I assumed people were following along.

I was alternating between ROFL and OMFGWTF the whole time

Crub was awesome this game. Good game!

[gorckat]

I don't think so. At that point, I figured it'd be a three day game with you around

[gorckat]

I don't think it came up during the night at all. You just seemed like a ballsy player, with the fake vote early and then the fake half-claim.

[gorckat]

Oh, yeah- I was concerned in the moment

I was not looking forward to going it alone.