Mini 532: Yaw's Split Open Mafia: (Game over)

[Skruffs]

Why, hello there.

Vote: mikeburnfire

[Skruffs]

I have no idea, Korlash. I just read this page, and I saw MBF trying to pull attention away from what was going on by asking for a prod on me (Who replaced, what, YESTERDAY??) .

When did the cops claim? Both on the same day? I have no idea what's going on. Who's claimed what, with guilties on who, and when?

[Skruffs]

The role switcher should NOT claim.
Lynch MBF.
It would make sense for a mafia-mason to kill his partner n1, if that's what MBF is claiming.

[Skruffs]

MBF - who did you roleblock last night?

The role switcher is town's best ally, and shouldn't be revealed. THey should definitely remain secret, as they can switch cop roles to players less likely to be hit by mafia.

[Skruffs]

It's very unlikely you are the role opener: MBF was traded his role as RoleBlocker for a mason the night the Mason was killed, right? Isn't it therefore most likely (since the switcher didn't trade after that) that the roleblocker is the last mafia?

Isn't that what logic dictates?

[Skruffs]

That means you could be the SK, too, right MBF?
So basically tehg SK has to be hunted down the old fashioned way, with logic, intuition, and perception.

I forget what you claimed to be Thanatos.

[Skruffs]

I wasn't on the phate wagon: I had replaced in near the end of the day an haven't exactly got my bearings yet on what everyone does or exacvtly how it works...

So my guess, based on your reaction is that he's a claimed cop, yes?

[Skruffs]

IT is strange that the mafia doctor would bus the mafia role switcher like that, especially after claiming.




Comment:

The role switcher would want to trade out negative roles (Unpowered, for example) in return for the possibility of new ones. Correct?

We know that the Mafia had a doctor and a role switcher. We know that the doctor protected the cop, n1, although the doctor hadn't claimed.

With MBF saying that the scum had a roleblocker, the doctor had a perfect oppurtunity to kill Thanatos while saying he was roleblocked. Instead, the mafia killed Korlash. That's very strange.


MBF: You targetted Zhao the night he died, right? Since he had no killing role, that means that you did not prevent a kill that night. However, there *was* a kill that night. Which means the doctor successfully protected.

Since the doctor successfully protected, and the role switcher successfully switched, that means that, most likely, the third scum is the one who killed Zhao. The mafia would have no reason to target themselves, so there is no reason to think they would not target someone to Kill.

The doctor claims to have protected Thanatos. Since he really was the doctor, the only person who would know if he was fake claiming or not, would be the serial killer, who might have tried to kill one of the mafias, and was 'protected'.

Alternatively, both mafia and scum targetted the mason n1, and that's why there was only one kill.

Mod: Sorry if this has been asked before, but if the SK has a role other than murdering, and is roleblocked, are both roles blocked?

Yes.

My theory is: The roleswitcher was trading out other roles that weren't mafia because they had the doc, cop, and roleswitcher already.

The SK was the mason, and was traded with MBF, who was teh roleblocker.

The SK roleblocked the cop and killed the doctor, not knowing that the doctor was in fact mafia.

If the role switcher had in fact switched the roleblocker INTO mafia, then they could have easily setup a situation where the doctor was 'blocked' and the cop killed.

Because that Didn't happen, I think that the Roleblocker is the SK, and I think that the cop is actually the last mafia.

Scandalous, I know.

[Skruffs]

the cop is dead tonight, regardless of his alignment, so I don't think there's really any reason to lynch him or anything today.

[Skruffs]

Calm down, mbf.
The roleblocker has to be scum. Otherwise, they'd've claimed.
I'm suggesting that it also has to be sk.

I am also curious as to why the mafia, with the doctor on their side, 'allowed' the cop to live through the night, when, they could have claimed the doctor was blocked and killed the cop.

Why all the fussiness, mbf?
You have to consider all possibilities, , and eliminate, all the ones that can be proven false, to wind up with the remaining possible ones.

[Skruffs]

So you did send in a night choice, Sensfan?

[Skruffs]

Umm.
Well the post was editted today.

Are you sure you are the role reopener?

[Skruffs]

Vote : Drunken Piper

[Skruffs]

Hey sensfan : Why did you want to do a mass claim as role opener?

Hey Holy : If you are unpowered, why did you care?

If the SK tried to kill someone other than the mason n1, he knows who the scum doc protected, who is likely one of the mafiates. They should try to slip a vote in somewhere to help us lynch the mafia, if that's the case.

[Skruffs]

There's too many IFs for the roles.
But I suspect the scum got: doc/switcher/blocker.

That's why I think we should lynch QB, we got a scum anyway.
And we still free to suspect Phate tomorrow too if he still alive.

Let's think further tomorrow, because indeed there's still tomorrow ;.;

Good night for now. I'll re-read Day 2 tomorrow (Real Time).

This was before any scum roles were revealed, right?

[Skruffs]

Hmm.

Here's the deal:

If the mafia have the roleblocker, than last night, they could have used the roleblocker to try and stop the SK from killing the doctor (the obvious choice for the SK or mafia, but since the doc was mafia, I Guess only the SK), and used their other action to kill the cop.

If the SK had the roleblocker, not knowing that the doc was mafia, he probably would have roleblocked the doctor, and killed the cop.

So the kill on the non cop doesn't make sense. The mafia wouldn't have killed one of their own, so that has to be the Sk's doing, which is feasible. But why would the mafia have wasted a kill on a regular townie: And not even the 'proven' mason, MBF, who's claim actually helped lead to the findings that the scum have a roleblocker?




It really just doesn't add up.

[Skruffs]

I have decide, Korlash you will always be my scum, just help me, please, to lynch your scum mate, okay...

Oh I feel so special now <3

But in order for that to happen I would have to direct you towards a game in which I am actually scum... And not already dead... which... well a game like that does not exist at this moment... sad panda... T_T

But I will do my best to help you lynch Someone's scum mate this game

(Pssst... Phate! Who is your scum mate? Quick man, your making me look bad!)

Um... Well technically I have the power of a super awesome mind.. but other then that.. yeah I'm pretty worthless...

Also I too think the Role Switcher is king here. But the re-opener is kinda dull until people start dying you know. At this very second that player is kinda worthless. Then is we lynch an unpowered tonight they are worthless too. But yeah, later on they become useful.

Wouldn't it suck if we lynched the reopener today? XD

Vote: Korlash until he starts posting theories that can be disproven by Occam's Razor. Followed by a cinquian(nope, couldn't resist).

Hmmm... Occam's Razor... Ok...

How about instead of Phate's plan we instead don't out the unpowered, and just RANDOMLY assign it to a player hoping they were unpowered! Hmmm... Not really sure if that is accurate in this case. I am very bad at making theories I

want

to be disproven you know...

Cinquian
Misspelled theme
reading, writing, reciting
It's actually pronounced cinquain
Cinquain

>.>
<.<
<.>

Did you mean you are an unpowered scum? lol, j/k :p

I think Holy is on to something! Lynch DP! The unpowered scum! =D

Sorry for hte delay, had a long weekend. *yawn*

I am happy with either of the two main players Korlash hinted at above. Holy or The Role Reopener

Also getting vibes that in deed teh SK is the roleblocker, now, not the cop.

Would anyone like to CLAIM the former mason, and clear up any misconceptions we all may have about the role??

[Skruffs]

Am I voting HOly? I think Holy is a good choice.

[Skruffs]

Yeah, I've reread D-3, and decided that of the 4 people who are potential targets, I agree with MBF. Kabenon is the most likely of the bunch to be the Scum RB, due largely to his attempt to derail the game into hunting the SK, when finding the scum is so much simpler.

Deadlined, I'm comfertable putting him at L-1.

Vote:kabenon007

Why do people keep suggesting that the SK is not scum?
Scum is scum.

[Skruffs]

Well, i will be honest, smart scum will probably target MBF tonight, if kabenon is not the roleblockign SK..

Sorry, MBF, but it's logistics.

[Skruffs]

if the roleblocker is a serial killer and can do two things, then the cop and the mason are identical in value, because one is blocked

therefore the SK, if not kabenon, will want to block thanatos and kill you - if kabenon isn't mafia, then the mafia will probably kill thanatos, yes. Or, who knows, they may try to RB the person they think si the mafia and kill thanatos, to protect themself.

Just speculation. IT can also all be construed as me beign scum trying to direct the other scum.

[Skruffs]

With only scum having power roles, it can help confuse their attempts to cooperate in night killings.


Duh.

[Skruffs]

Holy is at the top of my list. THen DP. However I think my attempts at the end fo the day yesterday could be construed as scum trying to communicate with the other scum; if that's the case, then I will admit it probably wasn't helpful for the town. But I didn't know that kabenon as actually scum, especially with the way he was accidentally hammered.

Looks like MB was right about mafia winding up with the roleblocker, and not the SK.

[Skruffs]

Skruffs, so if Holy is on top of you list.
What are you waiting, for this I have missed?

Do you have questions for Holy or I,
or are you just waiting for town feelings to see who you want to push to die?

Holy was the top of my list until the above^
now I am wondering who really does wear the SK glove.

Hold on now, friend, let me take note
Why so eager for me to place my vote?

My intentions are clear, I stated suspicions
Of the two who are tops and my personal position

If I was trolling for opinions, as you seem to imply,
would I POST my opinions, first, I ask why?

[Skruffs]

Nobody is 'cleared' anymore, I suppose
Sensfan as sk could still open roles.

Em-Bee-Eff's theory about mafia masons
bore out like he said, exactly that way. which actually again, suggests he knew that hte SK wasn't the mason cuz maybe he was, but, that's hyperbole.

The scum are all gone, there is only a mason, a role opener, and three unpowereds mixed in with the sk and 4 townies.

[Skruffs]

I was trying to , in teh case that we hadn't hammered scum, convince both scum to kill you with the thought that the other would kill the cop. If we hadn't lynched scum yesterday, it would have wifom'd scum last night. I'm not going to apologize for it. You would have been a better kill, townwise, than thanatos.


I just didn't understand the reasonoing behind mafia killing a mason and switching the other mason out. It jus doesn't make sense, it's not something I would see a mafia with a role swiwtcher nad a mason as doing;l; the mafia would, I would have thought, left the mason alive and traded the mason with a nother role, killing a fourth role, to completely avoid the 'trail' that led back to them. So it made more sense that an SK would kill his mason partner and then later claim, if need be, that he was actually the other mason... that's what it seemed like to me. mafia technically had a four person night-talking group by keeping the masons together and alive; and could flush out other power roles (like the roleblocker and cop) by randomly trading other people.

My next goal: See who was suspicious of Thanatos day one, or was strangely unsuspicious of him, of those remaining. There's no reason to think the doctor didn't actually protect thanatos night one, and that the sk tried to kill him. The alternative was that the SK and the mafia both killed the same person.

I kind of expected to get some prods today about my behavior yesterdaya; I'll just let you guys know now that I intend to figure out who the SK is before today's lynch, even if it feels like you guys are setting yourselves up to lynch me, which is what i'm picking up on, now. MBF's reactions are pinging me the most, Holy's second.

[Skruffs]

The mafia aren't morons? Are we talking about the same mafia, mbf? Didn't one mafia out another, or something like that? Didn't they kill a mason while switching the role of the other mason?
...
Just make sure you aren't trying to discredit me for discrediting's sake.


Okay, I'll take it on your word that the Sk didn't try to kill the cop, then... That leaves the only death, which means that the roleblocker, the scum mason, the mafia, and the sk all targetted one person last night.

There's no reason to think that mbf as sk would try to block and kill the same person... Of course there's no reason to think that mbf as scum actually rb'd someone at all.....


Sensfan, I do not think, is the sk.

Holy seems the most likely to me to have been mafia; I seem to recall some scummy interactions with some of the other scum... I don't think I can honestly remember what reason there is for thinking her as sk, wxcept her continued mentioning of the sk and the scum; she may not realize that the sk is as bad a role as mafia.

That leaves dp, who acted kinda funny when I posted him as #e on my list.

[Skruffs]

I'm aware of that, and I am glad you are aware of that, too.

[Skruffs]

If the Mafia doc had no reason to protect a townie, and protected one of their own, then the sk knew the doc was lying about the protection on the cop.

Considering the mafia DID have the doc AND the roleblocker, it still doesn't make sense that they would kill a townie and block the cop, when the better choice, the more logical choice, would have been to kill the cop and block someone else while protecting one of their own, and then claim a RB the next day.

I still think that killing the mason that wasn't being traded out was also dumb; it would have been better, even, to kill you, mbf, and have the other mason look guilty when you showed up as the mason. it would have removed a "useless role", which wasn't actually detrimental to scum considering they knew who both the masons were from the getgo, and led to the exact same 'breadtrail', except the trail would have led to the mason not killed first and then the swapped out one second. stil, killing any mason was dumb, when there was (at that point) a cop, roleblocker, role opener out there. Scum were not thinkign strategically that night. this is frther evidenced by the intentional-bussing the next day, etc.
basically, trading out one mason and killing the other wound up damning them, in my opinion. leaving the cop to be rbed the next night also damned them further, they should have focused on finding/killing the sk rather than trying an elaborate setup to appear town.

of the mason and the roleswitcher, the roleswitcher would be more worth saving by scum, n1. So i think we can reasonably be sure that hte SK only targetted one of the mason, the role switcher, and the cop. No other possibilities are realistic. all of them are dead, too, so that doesn't really 'help' clear anyone.

[Skruffs]

I thought you were suspicious of holy?
Why the attention on sensfan?

[Skruffs]

Since this is a (partially) open set-up, I think we might be best off with a full claim. The scum will have no choice but to claim their actual roles (or get busted on a 1-for-1 basis), and we can ask for everyone to tell the town what they did the night before, forcing the Scum lie. Ideally, we can catch scum in lies in a few days...

As well as the rest of page 3. If Sensfan is the SK, then he is doing a good job at acting like he has no clue how the game works, at this point. He's also suggesting something that - as the role opener - would be unbeneficial to him and (at that point) likely to draw a lack of doc protection AS WELL as mafia fire, if he was SK. So just on this post, I'm pretty sure he's not the SK. Later agreed that the directing of role manipulators was good; not sure if (as role opener) he woudl have agreed to that more as town or as scum. Also don't see him bringing up the possibility of the reopener or roleswitcher being one of those killed. Quickben screwed up (lol) when he said that we didn't know that the reopener wasn't scum (cuz he knew the doc and switcher were, lol). Later disstraction votes o nDP while saying he is being distracting; this is righ tafter DP says that we should focus on lynching scum instead of arranging NKs, as well as claiming unpowered/no-role. Not good for him.

Yeah, but that can dip into WIFOM for the record... but I agree that Korlash is seeming mostly townie to me.

That is not WIFOM in the slightest. WIFOM would be if he bussed a buddy, with the hopes of looking Town later on. What he did is STRICTLY WORSE than his other options as scum: he would alert the town of his theory, and it has ZERO chance of getting others to look favorably upon him.

HEh, which is what Sensfan did at the beginnign fo the game, which is why I think her's prolly not scum.

Holy's "You caught me!" page one probably isn't much of a scum tell. She was sayiong that Korlash was 'her scum' a few times page four, askign him to help her (lynch his scumbuddy). Could have been an attempt to communicate with mafia.
Post 146: Repeatedly refers to 'the scum' after correcting Phate on the abilities of the SK (Which had been mentioned the day before by someone else)... refers to "him", singularly, which makes me think she was inferring both the SK and that the sk is male... (ignoring Jex as possibility, though it could be a grammar thing)
Page 8, speculating only on what the mafia would do... not the SK... doesn't need to speculate on the SK?
post 203: fishing for DP's full claim shortly after others start claiming for a volunteer for Phate's disaster of a plan (may be unpowered , and thus hoping to get someone else pushed in front before she gets nommed for it, - points)
Later on saying that 'even she' couldn't be sure someone was scum goes against her claim to be an unpowered townie; it makes me think she considered her position in the game special.

Shortly before OTM was lynched, Zhao accused Holy of all the logical fallacies; a very intimidating list.

DP : V/LA most of hte time during Sensfan's 'mass claim' idea nad phate's follow up 'let's lynch and kill vanilla townies". Claims without any reason, dangerous to do as SK right after talk of using an unpowered townie as a guinea pig to test a plan. Bonus points to him for that.




Basically, here is my list of people that strike me as scum:
Holy
MBF
DrunkPipe
SensFan
Me.

Drunken Piper's points: Claiming unpowered for no reason shortly after discussion springs up about switching power roles into unpowered slots.

I don't think Sensfan SK would claim being a role opener so early in the day.
I don't think DP sk would claim unpowered at a time when people are discussing using an unpowered player as a death-bait for mafia.

I doubt sensfan would have suggested a mass claim as SK, so early on day one. Unecessary attention.

I don't like that MBF repeatedly stated that he had no leads on anyone towards teh END of day one, but was happy to list off Phate, Korlash, and Quickben (two of htem being scum) as votable at the beginning of the day. Also, I do'nt understand why he didn't RB one of THEM that night, instead of the mason. (I don't see a lot of suspicion towards that mason)

Holy has lots and lots of little things, but basically she tries to lay low, lower than MBF, lower than DP.

Unvote, Vote : Holy

Sorry miss.

[Skruffs]

DP - reiterate why you are voting Sensfan?
The only reason I can think that he would be worth voting is because the mod gave all of hte mafia additional powers; presumably they would also give the SK powers, too.
However, RBer helps the SK a lot more than role opener; so what is your basis for sensfan over MBF?

[Skruffs]

IT's fine... may I ask a question, is english your first language? I think some of the 'scumtells' I have on you (in my last review) are possibly due to your use of the language and such.

I don't think the SK would be *that* euphoric... suggesting a day one mass claim is very tricky, isn't it? And in an open game, where we already know all the roles, and roles were switchable? I think that makes it more likely that he is town with not much to lose.

[Skruffs]

leading the crowd in an attempt to out mafia / power roles
is not the same as going along with them

[Skruffs]

pissing off both sides of the game is not the right way to 'lay low'.

[Skruffs]

MBF's change of character, today, versus yesterday, when the mafia was still alive, is just... it's palpable. Like, I can taste it, on my tongue, the difference. I don't like it.
Is anyone else noticing that?

[Skruffs]

Day 2 and Day 3 you were GUNG HO, inquisitive, demanding, agressive, now you are still quasi aggressive but it's more like a badger that's been poked. Your contribution that I remember today was that you would lynch Holy, DP, and then me later on, but I don't remember you explaining why; unlike DP, and now Holy who at least have made SOME contribution.

[Skruffs]

Holy : No, it's not horrible at all, however it requires some tinkerign in how I translate your wordage. You're fine!

And you make a good point about Sensfan : He's posted 35 other times in games other than this one and in mish mash since his last post here.

Mod : Prod sensfan

Prodded him on Monday, he's picked it up so if he does not post by the time I prodded him tommorow, I will prod him again.

[Skruffs]

Sens : What do you feel on me, DP, and MBF?

[Skruffs]

I looked at his posts; he does so in every game.

[Skruffs]

l;ol
the second guessing is a preventative measure
and i am glad you haven't hammered; discussion is GOOD, but you have also stopped discussing as much as you did yesterday. Yesterday you had no problem explainng why my theories are inane, today you are more just *saying* they are inane and suggesting you'd like to lynch me for it. So maybe that's part of why I'm curious about that.

[Skruffs]

Actually, I *did* refute your points. I was wrong, but I did refute them.
I didn't think mafia would be stupid enough to kill a mason partner while switching the other one out, or to claim guilties on their own scum doctor so that the doctor would get killed the following night, or that they would block the cop and kill.. what, a townie? instead of killing the cop and blocking someone else who might have been the SK.

So yes I thought that the SK killed his own partner and was surprise-switched into the roleblocking role. I wouldn't say YOU refuted it as much as the evidence refuted it.

[Skruffs]

I...err.... um...
Are they voting or not voting..
Holy and Sensfan are Schroedinger's cousins...

Fixed.

[Skruffs]

I Thought the SK was the mason that killed the other mason.
This has been disproven.

[Skruffs]

Only 3 of us are alive there bird1111.

[Skruffs]

Okay.
Initial thoughts:
Mike's hammer came without reasoning, though he had explained his opinions in earlier posts..

Sensfan apparently reopened "Role Switcher" last night, or else that hasn't been fixed.

I'm a bit more suspicious of Sensfan and less suspicious of MBF today:
Why?
Because I stated pretty thoroughly yesterday that I was pretty sure that Sensfan was town. If MB was the SK, he would have wanted to NOT be in a situation where Sensfan is likely to be believed over him, which would make me a better choice than drunkenpiper for last night's kill. Also, I was more suspicious of MB than DP was; DP was rather ambivalent towards the end.

Lastly, MBF was as suspicious of me as I was of him, which would lead sensfan into a relatively safe position by letting us attack each other.

Not voting yet, obv, but that's how I see it right now.

[Skruffs]

How is it wifom?

And what else am I supposed to go on, other than speculation?

[Skruffs]

What does leaving you alive benefit MBF? You are suggesting he would know i'd be suspicious of you being alive?
You were -1 yesterday, remember? I was the only person who wasn't willing to vote you.

Why don't you like it? Whoever decided to kill DP obviously considered him more of a threat than me, right? Your last post

[Skruffs]

In the reread, which I found a little tough,
I have come to the conclusion that me doubts our SK is scruffs.

My suspicion of Holy, is going to and fro.
I see her words, but her actions today I would rather know.
I would like to see what she does today.
Which is why me thinks, her lynch should be waylaid.

MBF, is aggressive and has proven to be actively on the scum hunt.
But so would the SK and he could be putting on a front.
I say that he does have a townish look,
But I can not yet put him in my town book.

Sensfan I have thought was scum for some time.
I disagree with Skruffs, when last he chimed
in that he thought Sens was not the SK.
Why do you think this every day?

Most likely my vote will find it’s way to Sens,
Before this day comes to a close, my town friends.

sensfan, wifom aside:
DP was most suspicious of you, and least suspicious of me.

I was least suspicious of you, and most suspicious of MBF.

MBF was pretty neutral towards both of us.

And you? I forget what you were.

[Skruffs]

Why is the role-switcher reopened, then?
I thought for sure that was fixed yesterday.

[Skruffs]

No, just confused about when things happen.

MBF : Explain why, please? Just saying it, at end game, is scummy, especially when Sensfan is already 'leaning' towards me?

[Skruffs]

I hate this. This is exactly like what happened in the open C9 game I was in, it was me, Ripley,a nd Zindaras. Zindaras was acting exactly like MBF, and Ripley didn't post at all. I wound up voting Ripley just to end the game, and zindaras eventually hammered, about a week later.

Neither of you seem to have ANY inclination to broach discussion. You have both said you think it's likely me, but neither of you are saying why, or discussing the ins and outs of it. If you are both going to be that apathetic, then there is really no point in me trying to figure out who the SK is; it's literally 2-1 at this point, with the sk and a townie both trying to act less interested in the game.

[Skruffs]

I am moving the next day, so that works for me.

Mbf, I am more willing to believe you are town than I am sensfan. He seemed upset that I vocally suspected him, which suggests to me that he was expecting an easy lynch on you today.

You have to give me something though, I don't care what it is, so that I can get a reading on you.

Sensfan, just because I am suspicious of you, isn't an excuse to go omgus. Please lay out your suspicions of me in a way that suggests you aren't just capitalizing on mbf's suspicions on me.

[Skruffs]

calulatory?

Are you sure DP had you less suspicious than me?

[Skruffs]

Don't be silly, Sensfan.

Opinions change. You seem to resent that the two people who thought you were not the SK yesterday are now suspicious of you - when the person who DID think you were the SK, DP, died.
And you don't see the connection?

[Skruffs]

I am obviously well aware of what the sk may be possible of, THAT is what I was saying in the beginning of the day!

You are disgruntled that you aren't automatically cleared, which makes it look like the theory about you vs drunken piper is right,

and
mikeburnfire is acting like someone who just wants someone else to get lynched; he's basically saying 'goading' type things without REALLY putting himself at risk by theorizing, at least not theorizing anything fresh.

[Skruffs]

I'm willing to believe that Sensfan is the SK.

[Skruffs]

First of all, it is extremely ironic that you are criticizing me for not participating, when the most you have contributed thus far is anger that you are considered a suspect, which really seems to indicate that you would have been the one to kill DP.

aside from that...
I've explained myself repeatedly, but I can explain myselfagain.
Before , though, I want to point out that this reminds mfe of a game where me and ripley were fighting each other while zindaras just kinda killed in the background. Ripley and patrick , in my eyes, were too-easily clearing each other (misunderstanding on my part) so i thought one of them was scum. That night zindaras, who had been quasi defending me the day before, killed patrick - which was much smarter than killing me.

Why? BEcause if he had killed me, the possible 'english buddy clearing' system would have led to him being lynched, and because patrick died he thought i would focus my attack on ripley, who wouuld in turn attack me, leaving him safe.

Ripley stoped posting and the mod didn't replace him, so i eventually voted ripley, while pointing out that zindaras was the only one who really benefited from patrick's death.


BASically this is the exact same situation here, except somewhat different.

Well not completely but as i and mikeburnfire have both stated, the whole crux of the matter is, why did someone kill DP and not me, sensfan, or MBF.

IF MBF or Sensfan had killed the other, since both started off as power roles
AS WELL AS ALL THREE MAFIA, it would likely have pointed to the other.

I was pretty adamantly anti-sensfan as sk yesterday, my suspicions were mostly on Holy, with reservations about mbf and DP.


Considering that I was so anti lynching sensfan yesterday, why would MB Fas scum choose to kill DP instead? If I was anti-lynching sensfan yesterday, what would make that change today?

That's the one GOOD point I have about MBF. That and, as RBer SK it's unlikely he would have tried to kill and block the mason n1, it's more likely he'd hit someone else, like the cop (or whoever it is the doc really protected), to maximize the effects he has on the game. When he started today, most of his posts, and this could be just paranoia, but most of his parts seem to be incendiary in nature; tryign to get me and sensfan to suspect each other without really contributing himself. Both mbf and sensfan are acting that way, and at that poitn it wasn't helpful.


Sensfan's disgruntlement that he's even beign considered the sk today acutally makes me more suspicious of himl it's as if he's saying "You thought i was town yesterday, and i kille the other person who thought i was scum, you guys SHOULD have lynched each other by now. I am displeased at your change of heart."

That's what I am reading Sensfan as now, and his attitude and behavior is doing nothing to assuage that inclination I am feeling.


NONE of us wanwt to be lynched today, it means the end of the game for whichever team we are on. I think that sensfan is the SK though. Role Opener as an SK role is not as powerful as SK/Roleblocker, which is a point against MBF.

MBF - do you remember why you blocked the mason who died n1?

[Skruffs]

Considering both you and Sensfan are throwing out that you think I'm the last scum, it's better for me to lead than to follow.

The power role thing is a mod-meta, and just speculation. We know that all three mafia were originally power roles.
We know the SK, working alone, had the benefit of being able to do both his night action and a nightkill on another player.

My analysis of that is that hte mod therefore gave the SK a power role in the beginning of the game. YOUR power role (roleblocking) would be incredibly more beneficial for the SK than Role Opening; because as the SK sensfan would draw ire from town for NOT reopening the town-helping roles and would also be HURT by doing such by the mafia who would want to keep them closed.
However, knowing the role switcher was mafia, makign the role opener also scum would put both scum parties into a unique situation where both would have to act protown with what they do with their night actions without revealing to the opposing scum (who could easily be hurt by their actions) who they are.

It's just speculation, but any speculation that leads to a more informed decision is better than just agreeing with each other. And your last post "You are making me more suspicous of you with your talking" is exactly what I was talking about in regards to how you started the day, MBF.
That is all just mod-setup-speculation, though.

[Skruffs]

MBF: Give me a break! IT was my lunch break, I was in a fit of posting at that time (look at other games I was also posting in around that time), and I saw that DP died.

Sensfan's post "Oh I was sure it was one of them" is what TRIGGURED the suspicion on him in the first place; notice how he said "I need to reread both of you" and then never does? Just sits back, chills for a while, and then starts complaining that I am suspicious of him.

I don't like how easily both of you are agreeing on me, ONE of you is playing off of the other, and you are both being blind.

Are you *seriously* suggesting I had my thoughts planned out before the day even started, Mike? Because I consider you a higher caliber player, who can build a better case on me than that.


The fact that my argument was persuasive should be suggesting that it was also genuine. The whole context of my first post was (I think) about whether YOU were smart enough to kill DP in an attempt to make me suspicious of SensFan or not: I later on wetn through EVERY game you've won in as scum and you've NEVER been in a 3 player end game as mafia. Sensfan only has a few other games, and I replaced him in one of them; which gives me the slight meta I need to think he's NOT an SK in this game. That game is still ongoing, so I can't really discuss WHY I feel that way.

And again, there you go: Insinutating without actually using logic. Appealing to suspicion instead of giving me something to talk about.

If *I* was scum, I would probably have killed YOU MBF, because DP and Sensfan did not like each other, assuming I wanted an easy win. If I wanted a HARD win, I would have killed Sensfan because he was the likely lynch target for today. If I wanted to just be tricksy, I'd have killed DP.

I *know* you can be tricksy, MBF, because I've seen some of the gambits you've done as scumin other games. I don't remember exaxctly what they are , but you talk about them in your WIKI. So I know you are CAPABLE of doing it, and if you ARE scum, you are going to win just because Sensfan is too lazy to look at the game through any other than OMGUS eyes. I don't like why you would think that I would turn the game upside down, draw attention to myself, and then attack both playeres to try and get one of them lynched. I think you are really reaching.

Sensfan, I called you out for possibly killing DP because he was the most suspicious of you, and for being blase and OMGUS about me being suspicious of you when DP, your worst accuser, turned up dead, and your 'lah de dah' response to it. You haven't really done ANYTHING to convince me otherwise, which suggests you thought you could coast through a MBF-Skruffs voting to an easy win.


Neither of you seem to be looking at the game through any perspectives than that of lazy townies, which is a scum gambit at the end of the game. Someone else has to step up and help me scruitinize.

[Skruffs]

Also:

Sensfan what do you know that I don't? Where did I assume the mod lied to us? Has he said that roles were independantly, RANDOMLY, distributed between alignments, somewhere? Because it doesn't say that in the first post, as far as I saw, yesterday or whenever my last large post was. Because it doesn't say the roles-alignment combinations were not RANDOMLY arranged, I have no reason to think the mod wouldn't try to arrange things in the way he schooses: think about it this way, what 'better' combination of roles could the mafia have received?

Role Switcher alllows them to trade off any roles to themselves and prohibit town from keeping them ( even for example trading the cop role to a dead role)
Doctor allows them to protect themselves from the SK

Mason *COULD* have allowed them to have a 'fourth party' player at night.

Role Opener is technically a pro-town role; however with the role switcher mafia controlled it would not have resulted in being useful EXCEPT to prove wether someone had been RB'd or not.

Roleblocker would DEFINITELY be more helpful to the SK; and MBF ambiguous forgetting' why he targetted who he did n1 isn't helping his case, from my perspective.

[Skruffs]

"You talk about how Sensfan seems generally peeved that we didn't go after each other today, but now you are the one who seems upset that I'm considering all options. What's more, you accuse me of being lazy, even though I've been proactive throughout the game."

This is not true. I am peeved that both of you have said that you want to lynch me without really explaining why, and the excuses you HAVE been giving are kind of cop-outs rather than actual attempts, and seem to be more based on getting Sensfan to agree with you than actually lookign at the options. All propoganda, and not really much analysis. And that's what I am calling lazy; the lack of drive and/or risk associated with scum hunting, not the nuber of posts.

[Skruffs]

Well, I can't argue against hte mod.

[Skruffs]

The game isn't dying; with only three p eople, there is less to respond to and less postings made. We'll reach a conclusion one way; don't punish town by deadlining them.

[Skruffs]

(I was also very busy this weekend, unexpectedly so)

[Skruffs]

Saying "I'm willing to lynch him" or "I think this guy is the SK" is goading, posting reasons is not, and to be honest your main case, that I had a 'persuasive argument nine minutes after day started' and thus could be scum, is ridiculous. There is absolutely no basis behind suggesting that because I posted my first day's response quickly, that I was 'ready' for it; you are either inferring that I am too stupid(as town) to be able to process information quickly, or don't have enough common sense (as scum) to 'wait' and let you guys wifom yourselves. I could just as easily say that you didn't respond and thus were waiting for someoen to fall into a trap you set, but, that would be WIFOM and useless.

If you look at my wordings, versus yours, and if you really want me to

Lastly, there was absolutely no questioning in the post previous to the one where I mentioned the goading:
"You're talking to Skruffs as if he is town though, chastising him for not anticipating the SK's moves. This leads me to believe that either you are either not as indecisive as you lead, or that you are scum letting your inside knowledge slip.

Also, you keep saying that the SK planned to get you lynched through WIFOM, but you're using WIFOM as your defense. "

My post as in response to Sensfan's post above yours: "You've been here at MS for 2 and a half years, and yet you seem to assume that the SK could never have been intelligent enough to think up a WIFOM argument such as that one. That bothers me."

For the record, WIFOM is about forcing someone to choose between two choices, neither of which are the right choice, when in actuality there is a third choice that isn't usually known. The "Wifom" involved in killing DP is two fold: First, it directs more attention to Sensfan. There are only two options there, though. Did Sensfan kill DP thinking me and MBF would attack each other, or, did one of me or MBF kill DP with the intentions of lynching Sensfan afterwards? I don't think there's a third option that is invisible to us, yet; I also don't think that it is QUITE fair to use DP's death as concrete evidence, we have to look at the playstyle of the players instead.

MBF called out a 'slip' he say in Sansfan, but if you look, I have been trying to look at HOW you guys are plaything as well as WHY I am looking at that play style.

You can attack me for having stupid theories, MBF, but they weren't stupid until they were disproved; WHY was it stupid to theorize that the cop could have been scum; we now know that alignments and roles were both assigned randomly. Why was it stupid to theorize that mafia was gambitting, when looking at it, we now see that they WERE in fact gambitting horribly? Why is there ANYTHING wrong in lookiong at as much of the game and trying to devise 'puzzle pieces' to fit the ones we don't know the shape of in an attempt to see what fits and what doesn't?


Lastly: You r assessment on me is backwards. You were VERY involved int he game, and I didn't mind your rambunctiousness at all, when there was still mafia alive and you were trying to hunt them. Today your playstyle has not become more hesitant and careful, unless you mean in regards to leading votes on each other. It's more subdued, more restrained, yes, and the gung-ho 'let's find scum' attitude you had in previous days *IS* gone, which is what I was calling out. It's smart to be reserved at LYLO unless you have a strong case against someone, but, you started off the day more just laying back and occasionally flicking at people; I don't think you asked ANY questions until I called you out on your reservations, and I think before then you were more just trying to play me and Sensfan off of each other.

[Skruffs]

My arguments are ALWAYS on the fly, MBF : In fact, you are pointing that out yourself in this very post. I talk about what I see and leave it up to other players to contribute and point out their own impressions. I don't see why you can give your gut reaction, and I can't.

As for horribly gambitting:The role switcher claimed a cop with a guilty on the mafia doctor, which outed the doctor who then became a target for the SK.
You don't think there would have been 8 or 9 better targets? Even just claiming to be the mafia doctor would have been better, but if you want to insist they were not playing badly, that's fine.

When it comes down to it, I have not been as SURE about what people or or were doing as you have been, and there's nothing inherently wrong about it. You, being the role blocker, had a strong lead to go on after you became a mason, which incidentally was a HORRIBLE move to make;they absolutely should have kiled someonme they didn't switch the role of, it led RIGHT BACK t o the role switcher.

I don't know what to think; you are saying I am blowing things out of proportion but that's how I do things; especialy at end game, itpays to stir things up, let the chips fall where they may, and tally things up .

[Skruffs]

Unless he claimed an innocent on someone else, right?

[Skruffs]

*pokes sen*

[Skruffs]

Even with the grounding, he made 17 posts between the time of his last one here and that grounding.

to me it's starting to come down to, if one of you is scum and the other is not going to be helpful, which of you as scum would I prefer to have beat me.

[Skruffs]

Sens: 1st, if you mbf and dp was alive, I'd be dead, and my suspicioun wouldn't matter. That's kind of odd for you to phrase things that way - it's almost like you just suggested I wasn't the SK (as the SK wouldn't kill himself).

Secondly, if I was reading the game, and had been NKd as you suggest (or there was no kill) I would probably be suspicious of MBF first, as he was who I was most suspicious of yesterday, with DP as a close second. I really didn't like something about hte way he was sure that the mason was killed by mafia, it seems like inside knowledge to me (despite his repeated assertions to the contrary)

If MBF was dead I would probably have gone after DP.

Sensfan, you should *know* the meta reason I was attempting to clear you yesterday. I'm not going to use it anymore, today, though.

[Skruffs]

I *didn't* avoid the question
I said that I would have thought it was MBF.
And you seem to have been really counting on that, it's been a thread through all your thoughts today.

We need to vote. I'm going to vote Sensfan. I am not completely sure, and the last time I was in this situation, (voting first), I lost, but I'll try again.

I'm putting my faith in MikeBurnFire, and this sucks.

[Skruffs]

I saw the trap, I described the trap, I went over who was more likely to have set it, and in the end stepped in it anyways.

I wish I hadn't gotten quite so caught up in sensfan's indignancy at being a suspect, I had my finger on it yesterday when I was talking about mbf's play fittinng that of someone who 'knows'.

I want scum to explain their reasoning for their decisions.

[Skruffs]

I tried to get the mafia to kill MBF on their last night, too. I remember MBF got all ruffled by it, asking why he would die over (say) the cop.
Oh well.