Mini 520 - Triumvirate Mafia - ABANDONED

[Mizzy]

Hello to you all! Reading the posts up to this point; will post again once I have!

[Mizzy]

Greetings, pink one. Cheers for replacing!

Thank you, thank you! Nickname "pink one" is ftw, made me feel welcome, which doesn't happen often in replacing games, it seems.

Anyway, I have read all zee posts and cripes, this is not an easy game. In the interest of heating things up, here are my general opinions on a few people.

Faerie: Unsure if he is scum or not. (Yay! Correct pronoun!) I don't like this method of posting (lots of small posts without much content) and I don't like some of the things he's said...but is he scummy or just a PITA?

MoS: A bit gung-ho and someone who tends to draw attention to himself easily by inserting quips that don't help anything here and there. However, I do feel he's given us some good logic...and wishing that his logic came in a prettier package doesn't make him scum. Some of his words FEEL scummy, but I have no real proof yet.

One thing that really stood out to me, though, was this:

I don't explain the reasons behind my votes, sorry.

Even if this is something he does in all games (which I'm not going to check; I dislike using meta data in games because it often clouds the current game...everyone changes) I don't like it one bit. Why not share your reasons for your votes? How does it help the town to be completely in the dark about what you do? Part of how townies NEED to play mafia is to use their heads and work together. I fail to see how voting behind a curtain does either.

FoS: Thin_Man

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: Be warned, I do a lot of little posts as well. I'm not an explanative type.

I consider myself warned...but so far, your posts have not come off as quite snarky enough for me to dislike that from you. That said, I didn't say I trusted you, either

[Mizzy]

Welcome Mizzy. Nothing much else happening. Mizzy's evaluation was quite bland, nothing of too much interest. I guess more waiting is to be had.

Well, this is definitely not an easy game, by any means. I can offer my insights, if asked. Not much has happened in this game as of yet...a whole lot of speculation and arguing and not much actual progress.

[Mizzy]

Welcome Mizzy! You've made a possible suggestion for a nickname for Miztef completely pointless, just by existing! Congratulations!

Glad to be of assistance! Now, where's my medal?

[Mizzy]

So, um, thoughts anyone?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: What do you feel about Spider Jerusalem?

What do I think of the character, or what do I think of him pre- or post-replacement? WHICH, I ASK YOU?

[Mizzy]

If I understand the question, pre-replacement.

Ah, okay! Well, he seemed like he was genuinely trying to be helpful and just had his foot in his mouth a couple times in regards to not being clear enough. His distaste of a no-lynch struck me as pro-town, though I think we was reading into some things a bit too deeply at the same time.

His statements seem good but are not worded very well, and they didn't really have enough definitive opinion in them for me to get a really good read on him pre-replacement.

In general, I think he had some good general ideas but they were too wishy-washy to really make any difference. He did not come off as scum to me, but he also didn't come off as overly pro-town. Granted, if you are pro-town, that's the best way to be (as to not waste power role uses) but that's WIFOM and just a thought process I had.

[Mizzy]

Hi folks. Will do a read in the next 24 hours or so.

*Pats your avatar on the head in greeting* :3

[Mizzy]

I'd like to remind you all that we're not here to make friends or hold grudges. We're here to win the game. The Mafia are staging a brutal takeover of the town, systematically butchering its inhabitants. We're a bloodthirsty lynch mob, seeking revenge for the deaths of our neighbors by pre-emptively murdering one among us every day. There's no reason to be an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole (unless you get a perverse glee from it, likely related to repressed feelings of inadequacy, like I do). There is equally no reason to be pleasant just for the sake of being pleasant. Anyone touting a cup of tea and a "Howdy, neighbor!" could just as easily (if not more easily) be scum trying to get you to like them (or worse: connect the two of you in the rest of the town's mind), as opposed to an innocent townie. Don't fall for the trick of letting an older player (even if it's me) pat you on the head and tell you, "Good job." That's what we call appeal to emotion, and should always and immediately be viewed with suspicion. Basically, anytime anyone does anything, think about what their motive is. Personally, I automatically distrust people who post nice things about me without backing up those nice things with evidence and logic.

But I have a weakness for cute, fluffy things. I have to pet them T_T

[Mizzy]

B-b-but...what about me? *cries*

Oh I suppose I can give you some head-pettin's. *Pets kitten*

[Mizzy]

B-b-but...what about me? *cries*

Oh I suppose I can give you some head-pettin's. *Pets kitten*

*purrs* ^.^

Awwwwwr :3 *Melts*

[Mizzy]

Anything else from anyone? There's scum out there...can we, you know, find em now?

[Mizzy]

Hm. Mizzy, do you see anything interesting about post 456?

Hrm... *goes back and re-reads it a couple times.*

Is this directed towards me? or SJ again?

Phate, from the start of the game, has been disconcerting at best. There have been times when we, as a town, have been close to lynching him (it's hard to tell how close, but I'd say 2 more people convinced at a good moment and he would be 6 feet under).

It's hard to tell if scum have driven accusations towards him, or kept him alive. At this time, the evidence against him is not so great, and I think it would require a great deal of case presentation and solid evidence finds to actually get phate lynched.

I would, however, be fine with going after phate at this time if there was a backing for this motion. More so then Elmo or FaerieLord at least.

Well, honestly, the first time I read it when he posted it, I glossed over it because it didn't seem like it held anything at all. I do see something when I re-read it but I can't tell if it's because I'm looking for something or if it's something I missed and is actually there.

What I find interesting is this:

There have been times when we, as a town, have been close to lynching him (it's hard to tell how close, but I'd say 2 more people convinced at a good moment and he would be 6 feet under).

Just because someone is close to being lynched doesn't mean it's a good lynch.

At this time, the evidence against him is not so great, and I think it would require a great deal of case presentation and solid evidence finds to actually get phate lynched.

Why would you want him lynched when the evidence hasn't been very good? Why would you mention how close he has been to being lynched when also at the same time think it would be impossible or at least really hard to get him lynched?

I would, however, be fine with going after phate at this time if there was a backing for this motion.

Why would you back a lynch wagon with little-to-no solid evidence?

[Mizzy]

Bingo.

For now, I'll also point out the wording "a good moment" and the fact his primary criteria for lynching someone appears to be what other people think, rather than their likelihood of being scum.

Rishi, I'll get back to you on skitzer, like.

Like I said, I'm not sure if I see it now because I was directed to it or because it's there to see and I missed it the first time.

@All:

Thoughts?

[Mizzy]

spurgistan:

Who do you currently feel is scummiest or who is at least worth prodding for more information?

[Mizzy]

I think the mod forgottededed me T_T

[Mizzy]

If you honestly want to make a wagon against me, can you give me more evidence to defend against, I don't particularly like just being attacked.

Well, honestly, I didn't attack you, nor did I vote/fos you. I simply answered a question someone had asked me.

[Mizzy]

This raises my eyebrows somewhat. Not because Mizzy is wrong, but because of how correct she is. Elmo asked her to analyze Miztef's post, and then people used her reasoning as a springboard for their votes. It puts the responsibility on Mizzy and not themselves, because they can always say they were "convinced" by Mizzy. The implications of this possibility don't make me happy, because Mizzy's logic isn't bad either, so I don't know how to differentiate between scum and people who genuinely believe Miztef is scum.

That bothers me, too, if only because I didn't see enough scumvibes in Miztef's post to FoS or vote him and I'm wondering what other people "see" in it. What I saw was evidence of an indecisive player...and whether or not that's a scumtell is too WIFOM to touch with a 10 foot pole.

I don't like Miztef's wagon...if only because there's no solid evidence against him in my opinion, there's only some raised questions.

[Mizzy]

SSF:

Patience is obviously not one of your virtues. Why the overwhelming need for night, hmm? Mafia games take a long time on these forums. 21 pages never hurt anyone, cripes.

[Mizzy]

SSF:

Patience is obviously not one of your virtues. Why the overwhelming need for night, hmm? Mafia games take a long time on these forums. 21 pages never hurt anyone, cripes.

I dislike it when games get over 20 pages... 10 pages seems fair for a Mini day. 15 pages is a bit dragging. My views aren't related to this game, it's just

21 PAGES

.

And this is one of the hardest plots for a mini theme that I have seen. We have to be extremely careful, and we still don't have a plan for what happens when a mafia we find inevitably screams power role. This is not going to be a fast or an easy or a short game.

[Mizzy]

or me ;o

KITTY! *pets*

Anyway, I do think we need some participation in here, but I'm hesitant because it seems kind of futile, too.

[Mizzy]

Vote Count

:

Not voting: skitzer, Sir Tornado, Mizzy, MoS, Miztef, spurgistan

I'm not entirely surprised that we're getting nowhere when half the game isn't voting for anyone - that chain of unvotes was not very clever. (I don't necessarily mean votes for Miztif, but

something

is helpful.)

It's hard to vote for people who aren't saying squat.

[Mizzy]

Sorry, Shanba, this is a hard as hell game, and I'm feeling a bit of...ennui? Is that the right word? It just feels like the moment we get close to a lynch, someone'll scream Trium and we'll be stuck.

Watch me get shot for saying this, but maybe we should have a "safe" lynch volunteer so that we can switch to night, allowing the power roles to be used? A cop-like verdict would help us so much right about now.

[Mizzy]

@Phate:

Thanks for responding...yes, I agree. A random lynch would be better...if we get enough people to vote to even lynch at all.

I think I'll go back and re-read more, also...might have missed something.

[Mizzy]

I also think we should discuss what to do about the cop power, whether whoever gets it should investigate whoever they want, or whether we should nominate someone to be investigated.

I doubt that scum are going to actually follow through on that, especially if asked to investigate another scummer. They could give false information just to not out their buddy and make another townie look like scum, mm?

[Mizzy]

Cripes...do we REALLY need to make this that much more difficult than it actually is?

[Mizzy]

Well, don't everybody crowd in to put your vote lists!

MoS>SSF=Cephrir=Miztef

Watch me get railroaded for being first.

[Mizzy]

Oh he beat me! Not first, yay

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: What has Cephrir done to catch your eye?

Been hypocritical and then adding only that he has been hypocritical to the game. That = = = group is really just those types.

I'll write out a full list so everyone can see...I only did a small one

[Mizzy]

MoS>somestrangeflea=Cephrir=Miztef>skitzer=Phate=Thin_Man=Sir Tornado=spurgistan>Rishi>Elmo>Mizzy

[Mizzy]

So, according to the calculator, using the slips received so far, MoS is getting deaded.

Vote: MoS

I'll move along with the results of the voting if anyone else bothers to vote...

Not everyone has submitted their vote lists, though

[Mizzy]

It's been two days. Everyone rushed back to post when I suggested prodding them, so they're clearly still active. I'm not holding my breath waiting for them.

I'd rather have a few more people at least give their lists and have them run through the program to see who wins the lynch, though...

So guys, please participate? If not, ask for replacement, but don't sit on your asses.

[Mizzy]

Hi everyone!

I am

not

going to catch up on the thread. Please give your opinions on the current consensus.

Thank you!

Mind if I ask why not? We could use a fresh perspective, not rehashes on our own.

[Mizzy]

Anyone else have votes to put in?

We have:

Miztef:

Mastermind of Sin>phate>Thin_Man>somestrangeflea=Rishi=Cephrir=skitzer=spurgistan=Sir Tornado>Elmo>Mizzy>Miztef

Phate:

Miztef>Mastermind of Sin>Cephrir>Thin_Man>Spurgistan>Rishi>SSF=skitzer=Sir Tornado>Mizzy>Elmo>Phate

skitzer:

Thin_Man>Miztef>Cephrir>Spurgistan=Phate=Rishi>others>Mizzy=somestrangeflea>skitzer

Mizzy:

Mastermind of Sin>somestrangeflea=Cephrir=Miztef>skitzer=Phate=Thin_Man=Sir Tornado=spurgistan>Rishi>Elmo>Mizzy

Cephrir:

skitzer=Phate>Miztef>spurgistan=Thin_Man=MoS=Rishi=somestrangeflea>Sir Tornado=Mizzy>Elmo>No Lynch>Cephrir

Elmo:

Mastermind of Sin>Miztef>Thin_Man>somestrangeflea=skitzer>Cephrir=phate=Sir Tornado>Mizzy=Rishi=spurgistan>Elmo

SSF:

Phate=Cephrir=Thin_Man=Elmo=Mastermind of Sin=skitzer=miztef=spurgistan=Sir Tornado>Rishi>Mizzy

[Mizzy]

Well, as for why he's first on my list, I will admit it's mostly due to the fact that we need a "proper" lynch and since he's going to be less active and had previously scummy vibes, so he's been an acceptable lynch to me until a better scum candidate shows up.

I'm more than willing to move MoS down my list...I'm starting to feel increasingly uncomfortable with the lynch of him, but I am having a hard time finding a better target. Participation in this game is kind of low at the moment, and without participation, scum hunting isn't easy or very fun.

[Mizzy]

I second this sentiment. I've always found that listmaking has been more helpful for the Mafia than for the town. It helps them decide on who to kill at night (whoever turns up the most townie) and helps them decide who to push to lynch the next day (people towards the top of the list only need a nudge).

I don't think Elmo is scum. I think it was a genuine attempt to get the day to end, but I'm not participating in this arrangement.

Mafia don't always lynch who is "most townie" though. They mostly choose whoever is safest to lynch, so if the person who is "most townie" would also link a scum to them, their death would harm the mafia more than help.

I thought the list was a good idea, and I don't know if it's detrimental because we all make similar lists when we mention how we feel about who. I can see arguments both for and against it, though I'd want to discuss the target we all chose BEFORE a lynch happened. I dislike that SSF voted so quickly.

[Mizzy]

As you said, there are arguments for and against it. I think it can be helpful in a smaller game, or on a later day, but on Day 1 with twelve players? It's just rampant speculation.

I think it's a fallacy that pro-town players need to be forthright at all times. Sometimes, it's harmful to let scum know that you're on to them, especially when you think someone is scum, but don't have enough to build a case.

I don't like that SSF voted so quickly, but I've played with him before. This is not unusual behavior for him.

It's a bit of a catch, though, because if a pro-town ISN'T forthright at all times, and someone else finds out, they're as good as dead. So it's an interesting line to walk.

Another reason I was okay with the list idea was that even though scum can find out information from them, so can town. We have a record, for D2 and beyond, of those lists.

In other news, I'm not up for an MoS lynch and would much, much rather find a scummier target. I'm going to attempt to re-read some things, but I'll be honest in that my attention span is not what it should be and it might not be an easy thing for me to do.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: Very uncomfortable with some of your low content posts. There are far too many that state in no uncertain terms that this game is "really hard" and this is justification of why you are unable to scumhunt properly or so forth. "The game is hard" is an illusion. I realize this setup is unconventional but that should not be a mental block against the basic way to play the game, which is to find scum and destroy them.

Actually, I was yelling at SSF for his whining about the game and mentioned that the game is going to be a difficult one...difficult is not a bad thing. Contrary to your words here, I HAVE done a fair amount of scumhunting, and the difficulty of the game is not what's holding me back but rather a lack of participation by others. You can't scumhunt when no one else is.

The only thing that bothers me about the difficulty of the set-up is the inevitable power claims the scum will make when we do find one, which means we won't be able to lynch them confidently by any stretch of the imagination.

As for the difficulty being an "illusion," it's anything but. What do YOU propose we do if a lynchee screams power role? Kill them anyway and potentially screw the town in more than one way?

Scumhunting is not hard when you have participation...but routing scum in

this

environment is going to be a touchy, scary thing. I'm a cautious player, and I don't do touchy-scary very well.

[Mizzy]

Well it's kind of simple if you get your head out of the ground.

If they have been put on the lynchee podium for consistent anti-town play/reasonings and counter-intuitive logic, then we lynch them regardless. Overthinking the "what if" scenario and wringing your hands over it is obsfucating the matter at hand.

But none of our suspects have THAT much evidence against them. If you take the game as it is now, in the whole, then there isn't much in the way of consistent anti-town play/reasonings and counter-intuitive logic.

Once we get over the lynch hump, I think we'll be okay...a night of power roles going to town (pun semi-intended) would really really help. If..of course...they go to town. Ugh ><

[Mizzy]

Condorcet gives the impression of transparency when it really isn't. Say a large majority of people have MoS high on their voting lists. We carry out the "honorable deed" and MoS is strung up and turns up town. How do we carry out the Day 2 review when Condorcet has basically set up a "group headnod"? Voting order is out the window, the hammer is out the window. Where is the foothold for post-lynch analysis?

Condorcet voting still requires us to vote in the traditional method. You can still get hammers, and quite a bit of development in the order of those votes. You still find out the true alignment of that person, which going back through D1 banter would still give you a fair amount of insight.

Just because any one of us thinks than an idea or method is good or bad does not make the person who had the idea inherently town or scum. It also doesn't reflect on the alignment of anyone who agrees or disagrees with the idea or method. In a nutshell, you thinking Miz had a bad idea is perfectly fine, but that doesn't make him auto-scum and you auto-town. We're all entitled to offer out ideas to further the game, and stifling that just because you happen to think that the ideas were bad isn't helping, either.

I can see where you're coming from, but your cut-and-dry method of "my opinion is right and anyone who disagrees is clearly scum" is too tunnel-visioned. The game is not a series of strict if-then statements.

[Mizzy]

We are doing the list voting in order come up with a fair and reasonable lynch.

No one wants to "take the plunge" today and risk killing a trium by a hammer.

If we abide by the rules of condorcet voting, a fair candidate will be lynched, one that is most agreed upon by the entire town.

This is the problem I have with Miztef's support of condorcet, Mizzy.

Yes, I do see.

SSF has been the most questionable in my eyes thus far and this from him really, really gets to me:

No, I'm voting for him because Condorcet results don't generate their own votes. In taking part in the vote, I agreed that I would support the resulting lynch. I call it honour.

Voting for someone before all the vote strings were in, and voting without discussion really bothers me. It also bothers me that he makes his actions out to be honorable. Voting an unconfirmed "winner" without talk first and giving the impression he thought we would all do the same...grr. I don't like it.

MoS has done a couple small scummy things, but in general, he's just quiet. He was on top of my list because I would have felt the least guilt for his lynch...which is not how I should be playing the game. I should vote for who I think is the scummiest.

Vote: somestrangeflea

[Mizzy]

SSF seemed to have a similar impression, although took it too far in voting before all the info was in. I agree with mizzy in that regard. Not sure it constitutes a vote though, as my first impression when I saw mizzy's vote was opportunistic after MoS's suggestion.

Well, we DO need a lynch, and he IS my #2. I'm trying to be less wishywashy, damn it.

[Mizzy]

This is why I don't support an MoS lynch. Yes, MoS is dangerous if he's scum, but if he's town (which is 75% likely), he's a huge asset to lose.

AND we would lose his kitty avatar...

T_T

[Mizzy]

Actually it's a cake avatar, at least for the next month. But if you keep me alive for a month, the kitty can return!

Oh yeah, did I hear something about you getting Glork's avi?

[Mizzy]

Well, we DO need a lynch, and he IS my #2.

Is it just me, or is there something inherently flawed with wanting the lynch of your #2 lynch candidate?

No, I think that's just you, especially since my number one candidate was, if you look at my old vote chain, not someone I thought was scum. There's more than one scum in the game, you know, so why should having a second choice be a bad thing?

[Mizzy]

I would like to say a big LOL that the most recent conversations have basically illuminated my point that condorcet lists are anti-town.

No-one has really been truthful with them, all they serve as are tools to manipulate collective opinion.

Minor FOS: Everyone except Rishi and MoS

Condorcet = NOOOO

Did the part where we don't have 10 mafia in this game ever occur to you?

[Mizzy]

Did it ever occur to you that constant anxiety over the setup and the mechanics of triumvirates could possibly cause this game to become a cesspool of stagnation that is the perfect ecological niche for scum?

Actually, yes it has. I said I'd be perfectly happy to vote for a good scum candidate, but none had really showed itself. My hesitancy was not JUST because of the game set-up but also because of a lack of a target.

1. Agreeing to condorcet voting.On the surface this seems to be a mechanistic way to find some way to end the day. In reality this is like discussing your country's counterintelligence program while knowing that spies are in your midst.

With how little participation we had, at the time, I thought the condorcet voting was better than a deadline lynch and a no-lynch. Lesser of evils. If my opinion is not correct in your eyes, it does not make me scum. It just means that we have conflicting opinions.

2. Falsifying condorcet results. There are two reasons why someone would do this. Either they would like to appease the restrictions of condorcet methodology and they have a tenuous grasp of who they are suspicious of, or they are intentionally misrepresenting suspicion in order to manipulate possible voting.

Or, it could be that not all of us were voting for scum and were voting for lurkers, instead. But that doesn't mean the lists were falsified. My list was honest...I had someone I felt was lurking too much in slot A and possible scum in slot B...but I wasn't sure enough of the scum candidate to lynch him at that point.

[Mizzy]

EBWOP: What I am concerned about is the following:

1. Someone looks scummy and is placed at l-1.
2. They claim trium.
3. A scumbag comes online before anyone unvotes, and knows they must be telling the truth, and hammers.
4. We lose all the power roles in exchange for lynching one scumbag the next day.
5. We lose.
6. ???
7. Profit!

[joke] Hey as long as it leads to profit, I don't mind losing just this one. [/joke]

Anyway, I feel that claims should not be completely irrelevant because there's a possibility that one could be right.

There is, though, the added bonus that the mafia wouldn't get the powers.

[Mizzy]

I don't think the above should hold any weight in anyone's mind, especially because the tradeoff would be the permanent loss of a town power.

Also:

Why are we talking about the setup again? Is this the standard backup topic to post about when one is being indecisive and cannot come up with anything helpful?

This from the person whining for me to get over my queasiness about the lynching thing.

It would be awesome if you kept to scumhunting and dropped the whole "talking about set-up" thing. We can talk about what we feel we need to, and stifling conversation isn't a good thing to do if the conversation is game-related.

[Mizzy]

Powers are useless to the mafia. So blah to that.

TrustGossip: I really dislike thin_man's FL vote, discuss!

Also, the more important question: why can't I be an unlimited non-day-ending dayvig? Just once?

Well, roleblocker they could use. And would a cop result tell role or just alignment?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: I asked the mod a while ago, the cop results only reveals alignment. They could use the RB, yes, I suppose. (Odds of it actually stopping cop/doc tonight with town lynch are 2/10 * 3/11 = ~5%, fyi)

Well, that's good then! Keeps them from finding PRs and keeps them from using the roles effectively...all it would do then is keep a townie from using them.

Miztef needs to post more, IMO. I also am waiting on SSF to return with some of those promised thoughts of his.

[Mizzy]

What makes me especially uneasy is that according to Mod, all inactive players have picked up their prods.

That bothers me too, that they would respond to a PM but not do so in the thread. Out of all of the lurkers, Thin_man bothers me the most.

The last time Thin_Man posted in our game was Sun Dec 30, 2007, post number 428 where he said:

I don't explain the reasons behind my votes, sorry.

Since, he's posted 3 times in Mafia Discussion and nowhere else, back on the 2nd and third of January. He has not posted since, but yet he picked up his prod? He should either be replaced or disposed of. I HATE it when people say they'll play and then don't.

[Mizzy]

I am posting, but little to say.

If we are at a stalemate, then lynch all lurkers is a good policy. It'll make Day 2 go better at least. Just lynch the person who hasn't posted in the thread for the longest period.

Or the lurker who has given the least content to the game...but yes, if I can't get a scumlynch, I'll settle for a lurker lynch, I suppose.

[Mizzy]

I feel the need to QFT the entirety of TrustGossip's last post. Lurking really hurts the town, guys.

I rather like the idea of lynching lurkers.. I'll give it some more thought, I have a couple other people in mind (MoS / Miztif).

MoS DID at least give us some warning about his decreased activity and he IS trying when he can...I'd be more inclined to a Miz (the other Miz) lurkerlynch.

[Mizzy]

This is horribly upsurd that your conclusion is to lynch me as the lurker vote. So much so that I feel the need to

vote: Mizzy

at this time. I can't see how a town player could make such a claim and see it as a pro-town act.

Wow, defensive much? I didn't vote you, FoS you, or anything...I ONLY expressed a preference between the two people Elmo mentioned. If you had bothered to read it, I already expressed a very very high interest in lurkerlynching Thin_Man...but of course, I don't think you actually noticed it.

[Mizzy]

Also, props to Mizzy!

You again misinterpreted what's going on but in this case it provoked a very informative reaction!

You get a cookie!

*Takes the cookie* Thanks! Now can you explain how I misinterpreted things? I'm still learning, here.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: you say you "only" expressed a difference between me and MoS...

I feel the need to QFT the entirety of TrustGossip's last post. Lurking really hurts the town, guys.

I rather like the idea of lynching lurkers.. I'll give it some more thought, I have a couple other people in mind

(MoS / Miztif)

.

MoS DID at least give us some warning about his decreased activity and he IS trying when he can...

I'd be more inclined

to a Miz (the other Miz) lurkerlynch.

To me, you clearly implied me as the lurkerlynch. You also implied my lurkiness is worse because MoS warned of decreased activity. I did see that you wanted thin_man lurkerlynched, and that's why it shocked me even more when you implied I was the best lurkerlynch.

I bolded the important part for you, where Elmo mentioned two specific names:

(MoS / Miztif)

and I replied with my post talking about ONLY those two names. I said, about you, that I'd be more inclined to a Miztef lynch because out of those two names, you would be the person I'd rather see lynched. I didn't say I'd be more inclined to see you lynched overall, just out of those two names. Perhaps I should have been clearer, but I didn't see the need to be.

...how do you logically conclude I'm the worst lurker when there are so many that, in the lurker sense, are hugely worse. God, I don't even care if you lynch me anymore, I'm sick of all these attacks against me. People just seem to decide I'm the most scummy.

I didn't say you were the "worst" lurker...I already had said who I thought was. Calm down, boy! As for being sick of attacks, that's kind of how the game is, isn't it?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: Please analyse posts 651 and 661 in detail and give an opinion of Miztif?

I should probably say that I'm all in favour of random accusations, even if they're totally wrong. That is kind of what day 1 mostly consists of for a while, I think.

Oh cripes, do I HAVE to? The last time you asked me specifically to analyze someone, same person to I think though I'd have to check, everyone was all, "YEAH! Let's kill him!"

[Mizzy]

@mizzy: It's amusing that you don't want to analyze me, yet the post just before was exclusively about me.

Well there's a difference between addressing you directly and giving a full analysis on posts of yours. I did that once before when Elmo asked and I really didn't like the outcome.

[Mizzy]

When logical players use crap logic

,

it's notable enough for me to post for. Also, the likelihood of my posting increases as we near the weekend. Also,

I don't like him.

Fun with text editing!

IGMEOY: Phate.

[Mizzy]

For what, exactly?

Actually, after having done a quick re-read, I find most of the posts you've made since way back to when the FL wagon was ending have been empty...what little there is in them feels scummy but there's so damned little that I don't want to vote just yet.

Most notably, I find these scummy:

Unfortunately, I don't think the FL lynch is going to happen today. So in light of that, and in light of reanalysing that post, and in light of not caring enough to do a decent reread, I officially

Unvote
Vote: Miztef

Hanging onto what I consider a BS wagon and finally letting go begrudgingly.

Vote: MoS because after a reread, I think I was correct in my initial suspicion of him, and if he turns out to be a townie after all, he will be decreasingly active in his games. I don't really want to be part of an endgame with a lurker.

Scum love lynching lurkers, yes they do! Easy kills.

My vote stands on Miztef. I'm getting a very strong town read from TrustGossip.

You never actually voted Miztef. Your vote was on MoS.

Asking someone what's up with someone else's post is at least as good as pointing it out yourself. If there's nothing to be found in a post, they'll tell you so - it won't send them on a "wild goose chase".

No, having someone else do your scumhunting for you is not really part of the game. It is a good way, as it was already said, of getting the info out there without catching blame yourself.

Incidently, that one one of the meatiest posts you've written in ages. You have "I'm active-lurking!" written all kindsa over you.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, we have such a love-hate relationship.

Guess which half I'm going on right now?

;P

I have no idea but I bet I'll find out when I do or don't get a valentine from you.

[Mizzy]

I thought the wink combined with the fact that I was previously "hating" on her meant that I had switched to "loving" her -> Agreeing.

Am I now scum for creative yes-manning?

No, because you yes-womanned...which is common in society.

[Mizzy]

Unvote
Vote: Miztef

I had thought I'd done that a long time ago.

That's all you have to say about my post?

[Mizzy]

of all the "lurkers" I'd say phate is the worst, although he is not so much the worst actual lurker. Between thin_man, sir tornado, and cephrir, I'd say thin_man is the worst of those (which I consider the actual lurkers).

I know you didn't actually ask me but here's my input. I like Thin_Man for a true lurker lynch (which I don't prefer) and Phate for an active-lurker-scum lynch (which I do prefer.)

I'd MUCH prefer if the true lurkers were prodded square in the face with a mallet and/or replaced with very small perl scripts.

To the lurkers:

PLAY THE GAME OR GTFO. *Adds a "Please" so she doesn't get mod-smote for being mean.*

[Mizzy]

No one is putting their money with their mouth is though, which is indicative of the general wave of wishy-washiness that is in this thread. That's why you can't lynch anyone.

I am waiting for him to respond (or not) with something...

anything

other than a vote fix. Ugh. If he doesn't respond by tomorrow, he gets my vote right between the eyes.

[Mizzy]

@Phate:

Thanks for replying, I was really worried you wouldn't.

I was hanging onto a wagon that I considered to be viable. It's a Day 1 lynch, we don't have much to go on, and I was sick of Day 1 even then.

Yes, but it's important to let go of things when they don't seem like they will work...dragging your feet works against you if you want the day to end.

Yeah, they do like lynching lurkers. That's not actually what I was proposing, though. Read what you're quoting and see what I wrote: 1) I think he's scum and my initial suspicions were correct, and 2) as an afterthought, his potential for being an endgame lurker is icing on his lynch's cake.

Right, but it felt to me like you were wanting to vote MoS for being a lurker but knew that wouldn't fly so kind of tossed in some suspicion. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it came off.

Pointing out someone's post and asking someone else what's up with it != having someone else do your scumhunting for you. I honestly can't see that as a viable scumtactic at all.

I'm not saying it's a scumtell persay (I actually believe very, very little in scumtells) but it did stick out in my mind that you seem more than okay with the idea.

It's also interesting that no one else has gone back and analyzed those posts that I wouldn't...not even Elmo. (That's just a thought there. Not towards anyone particular.)

Do a recent meta of me. Watch my post count drop sharply in the last few months, then gradually begin to recuperate, with my 'meaty' post located almost exclusively on or near weekends. Things are going on in my life that takes precedence over mafia, but they're coming to an end, and I will have more time soon.

Already did, and what I dislike is that you were busy and yet stayed in the game when you could have been replaced with an active player. You posted just enough to get by, no more, and no less. Real life does come first, but it's not good or okay for busy players to active-lurk and bitch about the length of the game at the same time.

[Mizzy]

Here's what I don't like about this post. YOUR VOTE IS NOT A BULLET. This is why you can't lynch anyone in this thread.

Phate has two measly votes on him. Your third vote isn't going to make any difference for now. In fact, with only two little votes on Phate, you could argue that any pressure on him is meaningless. He can sit there thinking, "What do I care if I get a third vote? This group is too wishy-washy to lynch anyone."

Which is true. Everyone stop dilly-dallying and lynch someone. I have volunteered on several occasions if you want a safe lynch.

You all had 28 pages already. What information do you hope to uncover in the next week that'll suddenly make you see the light?

I don't think my vote IS a bullet, but I am not going to toss votes around just because you have a cute avatar and want me to. I will vote when I am damned good and ready...try bitching at some of the inactive players instead of one who is trying to be active and scumhunt.

[Mizzy]

I am okay with Elmo's method. I can't fathom what you mean by "more than okay".

It felt, and this is probably just me being hormonal, like I was getting flack for not doing it, when I know I'd have gotten flack for doing it. Rock + hard place.

[Mizzy]

@mizzy: flak from me? Where?

Just in general...I felt like I had been asked to stick myself in the rabbit hole again by Elmo and when I wouldn't, I dunno. Hormones.

[Mizzy]

I do have a cute avatar. Thank you.

My point is, and I should have said it in a calmer manner, is that you shouldn't be afraid to vote. Voting is one of the only weapons that we have against players - and it's a good way to probe for information. If you want players to actually feel pressured, then an actual vote is more threatening than the threat to vote.

Welcome!

Anyway, yes, I do feel a bit afraid to vote and I can't put my finger on why. In an attempt to help that out, I've narrowed the ones I would vote for right now to Miztef and Phate for actual lynches (preferred) and Thin_Man for a lurker lynch (not preferred.)

I'm going to

Unvote. Vote: Miztef

.

These are the two posts that pushed me over the edge:

I'll be honest about mine MoS, I only voted you first because I'm close to being picked and your also close, so even though I'm fairly neutral about you, I decided that it would be better you then me.

If people were really adamant about going after phate or some others, I would have voted that candidate first in an instant.

The above post I didn't like then and I really don't like it now. I also wasn't satisfied with his response when Rishi poked him about it.

not against the rules, I just think your being a little overdramatic. I'm not implying you are scum because of it, just think your being a bit hypocritical of the fact you voted me for being melodramatic.

Why does it matter if you mentioned phate or not. I think thin_man is the worst of the actual horrible lurkers, where as phate does post, but he is more guilty to me nevertheless, so I voted him.

The more I read on Miztef, the more he comes off as being someone who yes-mans and someone who posts little content but tries to pass it off as more than that. He seems to do very little actual scumhunting and just floats by. Phate's done a good job of answering me, so I will go with Miztef.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: I'm not sure how I just popped in your plans and got a vote in 1 post, but whatever the reason you didn't even mention me as a lynch candidate (lately) until that post, I don't like that post nevertheless.

There were some posts of mine that looked at you with interest as a lynch candidate, and like I said, I re-read a lot of your posts and came to the conclusion.

Anyway, since I'm near lynch, I'm gonna claim triumvirate. So, yeah, take it as you will. Also, I realize I said claims were irrelevant, but that only applied to my opinion, which is actually now changed a bit on that subject. I know others said they thought claims were valuable, so I decided it best to say mine.

I

told

you guys...however, I don't believe him either because that was the most insincere claim I have ever seen.

"Anyway, since I'm near lynch, I'm gonna claim triumvirate."?

What the hell. My vote stays for the moment.

[Mizzy]

well, I claimed like that cause I was again just upset by the end of the post.

I'm starting to wonder if you panicked at a possible lynch...but you weren't a -1L, I checked before I voted. So why claim now?

Looking back, it does sound quite scummy, but yeah, I'm triumvirate. I think anyone could notice my wish for protection of triums in most of my previous plans.

Yes, it is extremely scummy, and if you are really a Trium, then you claimed in the worst possible way ever.

The massclaim for example, was because I was quite fearful of being lynched early, and wanted to have the protection of saying my role.

Or you wanted to know who the real Triums were/are. There's no way to prove it either way.

what do you mean by "I told you guys"? I don't find it at all surprising that mizzy and phate are 2 that wish me lynched still.

I mean that I was hesitant to vote/lynch because I knew whoever it was would claim to save their own asses. I said so many, many times.

Imo, Mizzy's latest jump from phate to me seems like a scum jumping from a bussing vote to an actual attack vote. As you should know, I've wanted phate lynched for a long time now, so it's not at all shocking that he wishes me lynched. Does anyone agree/disagree with this theory?

Phate's still #2 on my list for a lynch...the reason I voted you now instead of him was because of your posts, especially the two I quoted when I did vote. I went back and re-read, you see.

Not to mention that he answered my questions and allegations well enough for the moment.

So, since I'm feeling talkative today, I'll bring up some other points as well:

Phate and Mizzy have become my 2 top suspects. Both for their "active lurking" type play, phate much more so in that category. Mizzy I find guilty of bussing phate, flipflopping opinions, too agreeable at times, contradicting approaches to playing (let's lynch lurkers, oh wait, only scum lynch lurkers), and way too much fluff posting. Phate has a ridiculous amount of active lurking, does next to no scumhunting, and tends to join bandwagons with little input.

Firstly, up until now, I haven't flip-flopped...you all know how cautious a player I've been so I think that attack is an attempt to pull a defense straight out of your arse.

I'd also like to mention that my vote wasn't on Phate...remember I said I was waiting to see if he would answer? He did. His answers seemed good enough. I'm not going to vote someone who responds appropriately.

About lurkers, I have been quite adamant that a pure lurker lynch is NOT what I want, but I thought people should know who I'd choose for it, anyway. Information is important. My sentiments on the subject have not changed.

In fact, this whole post of yours doesn't one quote, post number, or any bit of concrete proof in it. Is it all from recollection? Did you BOTHER looking back at anything?

If you thought I'm scummy, you'd have put your finger where your mouth is and done SOMETHING. IGMEOY, FoS, vote, anything. But you didn't. That whole post was a load of hot air.

If you ARE a PR, then get off your ass and act like a townie.

[Mizzy]

What makes you sure enough that Miztif is scum that you are willing to risk turning the game mountainous if you're wrong?

I know this isn't directed at me, but I wanted to say my piece anyway. His claim isn't heart-felt, sincere, or in any way, shape or form a claim that I feel a real trium would have made. He basically did it as a last ditch effort and basically admitted as much.

Give a quick re-read to his posts, both in and out of context. I can't imagine that his claim is legit.

[Mizzy]

So:

Rishi: Vanilla
Miztef: Trium

Question:

Are we doubting Miztef's claim because we believe he is scummy, and we are complacent with Rishi's claim because we believe he is town?

Oddly enough, while I did question Rishi at first, after some thought, I did and do believe his vanilla claim. Normally, it would raise alarm bells in my head, and for some reason it didn't this time.

I doubt Miztef's claim because of the sentence I quoted from him. He almost ADMITTED it was a claim done just because of a lynch and for no other reason. Rishi claimed with the intention to be lynched anyway, and seemed okay with that. Miztef is trying to save himself in a half-assed manner...something I don't think a Trium would do.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy... are you saying a trium wouldn't claim before dieing?

I, being a trium, think that pretty much every trium will want to claim before their death. Heck, I wanted to claim right when the game started. It's nerve-wracking to be a trium, you want to hunt scum, but if your logic is too faulty, or say a slip of words, the town wants you dead and you being lynched means massive damage to the town.

No, I'm saying that a Trium would have claimed in a way that was less, "what have I go to lose?" and more like, "crap, guys, you're all wrong!" Your claim was so passive, so nonchalant that it looked and felt

fake

.

I also think that this post of yours,especially the part, "I, being a trium" smacks heavily of scum going "I, being completely non-scum" and I think you're trying too hard to prove yourself. It also felt like one huge invitation to a pity party you're throwing for yourself. "Oh damn, guys, being a Trium is SOOOO HARD! You have no idea!" That's just plain saccharine.

I don't think

one bit

that a trium would be acting this way.

[Mizzy]

@All:

The way I see it, and please correct me if I am wrong, we have 3 general directions we can take for the rest of the day:

1) Lynch someone other than Miztef and see if he gets nightkilled.

Pros:

We don't lynch a claimed Trium and we get to see if he gets NKed to prove him one way or the other. If he gets NKed and is confirmed, we don't lose all power, just his.

Cons:

If the scum don't NK him and go for someone else, we may then mislynch the trium tomorrow. (This is a huge, huge con in my eyes and it should not be taken lightly.)

2) Lynch Miztef anyway.

Pros:

If he's scum, then we have a really good start and maybe scare other scum away from claiming Trium.

Cons:

If he IS Trium, we lose all power roles.

3) Go a third route, such as getting counter claims or going no-lynch. (I personally don't support these, but they might be worth thinking about...no idea. They

are

an option, if unsavory.)

Thoughs all?

[Mizzy]

So basically, there is no logical basis to why I'm more likely scum, it's just you

feel

a trium would not act in such a way.

Well, if you completely disregard the cases against you, which are the reason you were put at -2L and caused you to claim, then there's no logical basis. However, if you remember that you were put at -2L for a reason, ie the scummy evidence, then it's much more than feel.

The "feel" part comes into your role claim and your role claim alone. For me, it's the cherry on your scum-sundae.

The reason I said it was hard being a trium is because you said that triums would not claim as I did. Well, I say we would, because I don't want the town to think I'm being too crazy defensive (by saying "ZOMGZ, Yourz all teh n00bs 4 lynching meh, I am de trium, GOD!") and I was just kinda sick of writing by the end of that post.

WIFOM, anyone?

I'm not "trying way too hard" to prove myself by saying I am trium, I'm just stating that it is because of that fact that I came to such a conclusion. If I were trying to prove myself as trium, I'd do it with evidence from my previous posts. Unfortunately, I was trying pretty hard to hide my identity, so anything I bring up just becomes WIFOM.

You did already tried proving it "with evidence from my previous posts" but unfortunately, you did so via recollection only, and got facts wrong.

And it seems awfully convenient that you tried so hard to "hide your identity" that you not only came off as scum, but now can't dredge up a shred of play history in this game that helps you...

[Mizzy]

(And seriously guys, go back and read Cephrir's posts. It's a short read.)

I did, actually, and yeah, it's pretty short. Thin_Man is worse, though, to me.

[Mizzy]

Even though I am dead set on Miztef being scum, I'm cautious enough to be okay with lynching someone else who looks scummy. I may be sure of my opinions but I don't want to screw the town over, either. However, I am not going to vote for a lurker who isn't active-lurking. I would rather have them replaced.

If we end up with two Trium claims today, I think we may need to have a mass-claim or we'll never find a lynch target (and the moment we do, it'll be a townie most likely.) I don't like that idea one damned bit, but it would help to go for the lesser of two evils (never getting off of D1 being one evil and losing power roles being the other.)

Honestly, we can still play without power roles...but we can't play on D1 forever.

[Mizzy]

I don't think we'll have two trium claims today.

Simply because it would be (IMO) unlikely that two out of three triums would play despondently enough to warrant themselves as a potential lynch candidate.

But it IS possible that we might find a scummer who decides Miztef's way out looks damned shiny, too.

[Mizzy]

But that doesn't make sense.

Rishi managed to throw off any and all heat on his predecessor with his claim and accompanying suggestion.

What's to say a townie claim isn't more apt than triumvirate?

In addition, a triumvirate claim warrants a good deal of night investigation priority while a townie claim does not.

I didn't say it made sense...I just said it was

possible

. I'm trying to look at all of the outcomes I can see that

might

happen. *Sigh* I'll just STFU.

[Mizzy]

You realize that this post looks incredibly advantageous don't you? We're four days from deadline and you post after not posting in a bit with a vote you concede that you came to an independent conclusion upon and do not provide evidence? Mafia is not a game played in a vacuum.

Please explain yourself or I believe I found a comfortable place to stamp my vote upon.

It also seems interesting that this (skitzer's odd vote) comes after Ceph posted asking why he was being targeted for lurkerish-actions but skitzer was not. That pings my scumdar.

IGMEOY: Skitzer

[Mizzy]

Mod:

Primate (Thin_Man's main account, I believe) has not picked up prods in another game he is in with me. Thought you ought to know!

[Mizzy]

Unvote. Vote: Phate.

He's still on my scumlist, and I'd rather not lynch someone who's more absent than active (would rather then replaced if possible,) so there you have it.

As a heads up, I might not be around too terribly much this weekend.

[Mizzy]

Can we stop with the game of musical votes?

[Mizzy]

Unvote, Vote: Mizzy

What, you're still here? I thought you were like, leaving or something. Smartass.

[Mizzy]

Just a heads up:

I will be away with limited or no internet access until late Monday, Feb. 18th.

[Mizzy]

<Insert one very angry BAH post here>