Mini 543 - Election Day - Game Over!

[Holy]

/confirm

[Holy]

I'll be on holiday until the 26th. Happy holidays all!

[Holy]

Well that's true, but it takes a majority to open the polls anyway, so its not like they're going to open on us unexpectedly. I think it will be more interesting to keep the voting a secret until the mod tells us who voted for whom. Instead of scum getting to bandwagon with "me too" style votes, they'll have to either keep their votes spread out or give themselves up as a voting block. It will prevent them from acting with unity, taking away their major advantage. Closed voting will also give us LOTS to discuss the following day once we are given the voting record.

Mmkay, listen here a minute. If we all just random vote for immunity, then the mafia will sneak in an extra vote or two here or there, and they can get the guy they want elected (more votes than anyone else!)
That being said, it probably doesn't matter until the end of the month, but it's worth keeping in mind. That being said,

Immunity: QuickBen

.

Yup, the "me too" lynch bandwagon might be out of reach from scum, but not the "me too" immunity bandwagon. And for Day 1, I don't think manual Open Poll will be necessary, considering the Auto Poll Date is on 23rd January.

Immunity: Qman

[Holy]

I think if we concentrate on who is the most suspicious, the least suspicious will become apparent and that is who should be awarded immunity.

Good point.

FOS: Akonas

self immunity looks scummie.

Somehow true... But that kind of action seems attracting attentions, I still have a doubt that a scum would attract attention like that.

[Holy]

FOS: Akonas

self immunity looks scummie.

Somehow true... But that kind of action seems attracting attentions, I still have a doubt that a scum would attract attention like that.

Hello Mr. WIFOM. How are you today?

LOL! But you must admit it, logically it's true if that person is sane of course, well WIFOM again... XD

[Holy]

FOS: Akonas

self immunity looks scummie.

That's bull. Everyone would want themselves to be immune - if they are scum, they're safe and can mislead the town; if they're town, they can be sure that scum wasn't given immunity. 'Nuff said.

Okay, one thing a pro-town does know is that him/herself is innocent, that's why I didn't accuse him as scummy for that. Yes, I still have doubt of his townie-ness, but I didn't find him that scummy either for that action (assuming that action came from a pro-town).
Lets see...

Vote: farside22

.

[Holy]

XD Lol...
I forgot, we cannot pressure people by vote in here.

[Holy]

@Holy:

How would it be pro-town to vote for yourself for immunity?

A townie knew that him/herself is innocents but didn't have insight of his/her other innocents ally, we didn't know who to trust but ourselves of course. I didn't say it was a pro-town move, but he might be just didn't trust anybody at all for now (yes, I doubt scum would do that as the first, but after this whole discussion maybe they might do that someday), that's it.

[Holy]

I think Akonas self-vote for immunity is a bit of a null tell at the moment, I can see why both town and scum would want immunity and would try to vote for themselves.

Why would you vote against me if you were not sure yourself if it pro-town move? Your comments and vote are contridictory.

Let me clear this, opie's right about it's a bit of a null tell. But with his

timing

, I didn't found it as scummy too.


I voted you for more clues (failed pressure vote.., lol), also because you seem didn't understand this:

A townie knew that him/herself is innocents but didn't have insight of his/her other innocents ally, we didn't know who to trust but ourselves of course.

Yeah, just throw me that WIFOM-er accusation for this. Lame, I know...

[Holy]

I think the whole self-immunity thing has been discounted; it's in the interests of both town and scum.

Well...

Unusual Rules

Immunity

* You may not choose to give immunity to yourself

it's forbidden now >.>

Immunity Count

*mcpaltp – 2 (Boggzie, ibaesha)

*Would receive immunity if polls opened today.

The question for now is, is mcpaltp really not that scummy to deserved the immunity? Still too early to tell though.

[Holy]

I don't think there is anyone that is worth a vote for immunity at this point.

Granting Immunity won't hurt you know... it creates discussion and maybe a scum will stumble in the middle of the discussion, who knows...
And I'm sure that controversies will occur (yay! discussion), for example if someone starts to grant me an immunity, I guess farside22 definitely will object and sound that to the town (note: I'm on top 3 of her suspects), isn't it sounds fun ^.^
[actually I got an eerie feeling that no one trust me at all right now and want to vote (i.e. bandwagon) me silently ]
@Qman: I guess my random Immunity for my cutie hamster will stay for a moment ^.^ (personal hunch).

@Holy:

It is way too early to be asking that question. I think only 5 of us has really been talking so far. Nothing much to go on.
So far the only thing I've learned is Akonas likes to exaggerate things.

luls..

FOS: Akonas

self immunity looks scummie.

Somehow true... But that kind of action seems attracting attentions, I still have a doubt that a scum would attract attention like that.

Here she says that she thinks this is somewhat true, which is not consistent with the rest of her posts, where she strongly defends Akonas' action. I'd like an explanation.

Strongly what!? Here:

Let me clear this, opie's right about it's a bit of a null tell. But with his

timing

,

I

didn't found it as scummy too.

Note the

I

? It is my feeling, not yours, I might be mistaken, so please feel free to suspect him . Anyone may try to convince me with their theories that he is the scum, I won't ignore it if it thrown.
About the "somehow true": because there's a possibility a scum want to benefit from that action

(risky scum move, IMO)

, on the other hand of course a townie would feel "why not myself, I know who I am, an Innocents". But I already said what I felt about his action though.

[Holy]

Boggzie - Foggy Boxy...
>.>
<.<

[Holy]

Well, we need some prods too to accomplish a merrier discussion >.>

[Holy]

The only person who has not posted in the past week is ibaesha, who has already been prodded.

Aah, I see.. >.>


Foggy Boggzie needs to talk more too, sheesh.. came in just to unvote.
Or maybe you just being too busy to discuss with us

[Holy]

As far as my comment. Holy seemed to be implying the votes for mcpaltp were scummy, when I simply voted for him because we had played together before. I had planned to unvote when I saw he was replaced anyhow. It was troubling when we were essentially still in the "random" phase that someone would look at votes rather then comments, or reactions as a possible tell.

I'm having a lot of trouble playing backwards, which has also contributed to my being quiet. Like I'd like to FOmS Holy, but I haven't the slightest what effect, if any, it would have.

Lol! Are you confused or something
I only asked, whether he's worthy for the immunity or not (generating a discussion, and you may convinced us from your meta or anything else if you want). If you still unsure that's okay, Immunity Vote works different, it counts from the longest held or by majority. If near the deadline, the one you voted feels not worthy for it, we can still unvote and destroy the longest held count. Anyway, you unvoted unnecessarily in rush.

[Holy]

[quote="Shanba"]Holy, who does seem to be scumhunting (even though I disagree with her).[quote]
Well, farside22 is the most active scumhunter, but other active players did it quite well too (i.e. opie, hasdgfas, Akonas).

[Holy]

Hmm... this thread disappeared off my watched topics list. Anyone else have this problem?

Nope.

I have already explained this, although I misstated; I would have unvoted once he was replaced anyway. You can easily look back and see when I layed the vote - it was random. Holy's statement was in the vein that he's "really not that scummy" meaning, to me anyway, that anyone that had laid a vote for him must be scummy to get their partner into an immunity role.

That's how I read it.

Because we're (publicly) voting for the immunity, it's okay to just let the vote although it was random in the beginning. If you unvote now and soon after that you think that the same person is indeed worthy for the Immunity anyway, it might be won't get the same value again (the worst possibility is that your worthy person could be listed as the last [won't ever be a real] candidate to receive Immunity).

As I stated earlier, I am having a very tough time with this playstyle. I think I need to

request a replacement for myself

because I think I'm giving off the incorrect vibes as to my alignment, and not because of the game itself, but because I am unsure how to play it.

Sorry.

Aww! Boggzie Woggzie please don't go, please just read over the rules and the game, I'm sure you'll be fine ^.^
Sigh.., am I already too late for asking you to stay ;.;

[Holy]

^TBH, noo idea >.>

Err, just keep searching scum...? ~.~
Lynch lurkers..? ~.^ j/k

[Holy]

I prefer we just post our suspects and make scum guessing which from the said suspects will we vote. I'll post my suspects tomorrow (or weekends? sorry) after a re-read (I need a fresh look).

[Holy]

Done re-read.

My suspicion laid on:

hasdgfas> At confirmation stage, I noted that he asked whether who voted for whom revealed or not (I think this topic interest scum group more than townies for further strategy). And he did OMGUS'ing each other with Akonas.

Akonas> It didn't across my mind at all about how many anti-town

group

presents on this game, there's no clue about that. So he might have an information about that, i.e. he is the other anti-town group he mentioned (just my speculation though). And his question whether anyone got any interesting leads seems like fishing.

Rigel> Concerns about powerroles. Post #43: Mentioning Doc. Post #82: Mentioning Cop. Still could go either way, can't decide if he is too neutral (i.e. didn't do scumhunting much) because he is scum or because he had a connection issue.

[Holy]

@farside22: Possibly hasdgfas.

[Holy]

Okay Rigel, I guess I'll downgrade my suspicion towards you because I can accept your explanation about it I guess.

About Akonas, I'm thinking what he said about more than 1 scum-group, I speculate about an SK, I don't know if an SK interpreted as group by him, but if he's an SK, we can avoid 2 deaths tonight. So, I'm thinking about Akonas lynch more than hasdgfas lynch right now based on that.

[Holy]

since the vote won't change who gets immunity I'm not that worried.

Yep. I'm fine with either farside or Shanba, I just don't want to grant them personally with my vote >.> (uneasy feelings).

[Holy]

Holy can I get an answer to the question I asked before the day was over. I'm just curious on your thought process.

May I ask why you are uneasy with voting but fine with either one of us getting immunity?

I'm just not sold on your innocence yet, but you did do scumhunting.

I need to re-read.

[Holy]

Okay, since yesterday, I don't think that hasdgfas and Akonas have any connection each other, and I'm more convinced now about that.
About my speculation whether there's an SK or not based by Akonas' saying about more than one scum-group, I think I'll drop that for now because 2 nights in a row it wasn't proven, so my stance towards Akonas right now is - neutral.

[Holy]

3) Holy - Not contributing as much. Very little said in regards to scum. Hasn't really come across saying much of anything.

Ask me too then ^.^

[Holy]

Holy, why do we have to ask?

I'm just replying farside's concerns about me, at the same time curious for the different treatments directed to QB and me.

[Holy]

@farside22 & Akonas: Okay, actually... I have re-read and already state my current stance toward my suspect. And for now, all I have for my new suspicions are only guts, not much to say.

[Holy]

^I won't say it now, 'cause I'm still unsure and it solely based from my guts.

[Holy]

^Don't worry, I won't sit back and just watch, I'm not that kind of player.

This is more of a temporary situation, I'm quite busy.

[Holy]

You say you're busy, yet you've been posting quite regularly--

and not saying much in any of your posts

.

FoS: Holy

.

Akonas, I realized that too that's why I thought I need to stay away to clear my head for a moment instead just posting without really put my mind onto it. Actually, I didn't like the fact that I almost neglected all of my games by not really analyze and or answer properly, TBH.

Lately my body shows a sign of protest to me, I only thought that I was tired and if I rest more I will be better. Anyhow with my attempt to rest, I still feel tired. This is the first time I can't slow down myself.

Yesterday, I accidentally saw a book by Elizabeth Baker, I was sceptic when I saw the title, I didn't think it was for me kind of book, of course. Books like that sometimes didn't really know what the hell they are talking about. But when I flip through the pages, I sense honesty in it, so unwillingly I digest it anyhow. I learned about adrenaline from there, it is good to have it but bad if constantly on that state. That constantly condition lead to stress.

I know how to hang loose, but my sudden triple workload lately did it to me unconsciously. I already on that state (still on yellow light though), that's why I had difficulties with my attempt to slow down myself, my adrenaline is on the way.
After that revelation, my rest and slowing down attempts today are better.

And I made my choice, I don't want to neglect any of my game. Furthermore because this game is the most neglected, that's why today I post here first and only explain exclusively on this thread .

As a consequences from my choice, lets clear a few things. I said about my guts suspect earlier, but I didn't trust it because that guts feeling was under my stress. I have re-think about it, although some of you suspect faside22's connection with hasdgfas, I found one comment from her that kept me conclude that she might be pro-town now. While Shanba, yes him, still have my uneasy guts.

Yesterday, near deadline, around page 9 and 10, I found the wagon was between hasdgfas and Akonas, the possibility of Akonas and hasdgfas lynch was somewhat 50-50 on the air. But with hasdgfas himself (that turned out indeed was the mafia) supporting the Akonas lynch and then with his vote history on Akonas, I don't think that Akonas is the mafia because the high probability that Akonas's the one who might be lynched with hasdgfas' vote-to-lynch effort contribution.

[Holy]

@Gorgon: You chose Rigel over hasdgfas or Akonas. Upon you read, what actually your opinion (your level of suspicion) on them before the election phase?

[Holy]

@farside: hm, just because I'm not available whole day (or every single day) to reply instantly that means I'm a lurker. But whatever, if you already thinking like that, I can't do much about it >.>

@holy post 293: Interesting thought that came out of reading this post was seeing if I could fit the scum setting themselves up as the top two candidates to be chosen from. I’m not sure I buy that theory but it raised my eyebrows. Was this actually what you were thinking gives a reason Akonas isn’t scum Holy?

I don't quite understand what did you mean with the top two candidates theory actually.

I didn't see them as the top two immunity candidates but like each and every one equally as suspects, I think it was still too early to decide their innocence. But I already said what I think for farside atm. Although her recent arguments with elias raised my eyebrows a bit, because I can see elias's reason, he already said why. While my case against Shanba's still minor (his odd push on opie yesterday), that's why I solely hanging on my guts against him.

While about Akonas, if you read around page 9 and 10, the lynch tendencies was developed on either hasdgfas or Akonas, so the lynch possibility between them were quite equal, and I think hasdgfas's effort to save his ass by his vote on Akonas didn't seems like the scum that voting each other to me. And because of that my stance towards him are neutral atm, I have my eyes on him, still.

[Holy]

@Gorgon: now I can understand more about your vote decision. If I'm not playing at the same time on another game with Rigel, yesterday I definitely won't bought his explanation for his behaviour also.

FoS: Holy

. Looking back, I don't like her; she doesn't seem to be saying much of late.

-.-;

Its really just a discussion...Im far from certain he's scum. I just wanted to gauge his responses.

I'm sorry, who exactly did you mean?

[Holy]

^Ah~ I see...

While we're waiting for the one who:
Need replacement: QB.
V/LA: Opie.
Still reading: Shanba.

Maybe we should discuss the vote results? I don't see much from it though.

[Holy]

Immunity: farside22.

[Holy]

Immunity: farside22.

reasoning?

Where's your own reasoning for your immunity vote?

Lol.

I gave my reason, before. But I can elaborate it for you all, thank you for asking.
At first, her case FOSing Akonas when he did self immunity vote was nonsense to me, now because I have re-think about it and consider that as null-tell, I did a re-read objectively, overall I don't find her that scummy and I found a comment from her that I don't think may come from scum. As a matter of fact, I did a re-read on her twice. Now, some player think her as scum because of her possible connection with hasdgfas, and when MGM virtually vote her, I decide to give immunity for her as soon as possible because I don't want scum ride her wagon for the case I didn't agree with.

[Holy]

Okay Rigel, I guess I'll downgrade my suspicion towards you because I can accept your explanation about it I guess.

About Akonas, I'm thinking what he said about more than 1 scum-group, I speculate about an SK, I don't know if an SK interpreted as group by him, but if he's an SK, we can avoid 2 deaths tonight. So, I'm thinking about Akonas lynch more than hasdgfas lynch right now based on that.

This is your only justification for voting me, it seems.

Yep, an SK probability. The case which I drop today. And honestly, hasdgfas' case yesterday was likely question from scum, but you won my attention more based from your speculation about more than 1 scum-group.

[Holy]

I noticed, when Mgm voting farside, his reason was kind of forced, not exactly presenting the actual situation, but he did say he hasn't finish the read. His opinion when he finish would be much clearer, whether it means he will end-up stay insisting that case or having another case. So I prefer to take prevention action by giving the immunity vote, if the town really read the game about who did what, I don't think I'm alone for her immunity.

And like I said before, my guts says it's Shanba. But his "still reading" didn't give me much to be sure.

As long as the town subsisting the game and continuing the discussion, it's possible if my suspect may change with much clearer reasoning.
But for now, I can only say if I must vote, my vote will go to Shanba or Mgm.

[Holy]

I

agree with Shanba

that we

need to see some more content Shanba,

Holy and Qman.

Huh? Shanba for Shanba?!

At first, her case FOSing Akonas when he did self immunity vote was nonsense to me, now because I have re-think about it and consider that as null-tell, I did a re-read objectively, overall I don't find her that scummy and I found a comment from her that I don't think may come from scum.

Which comment was that?

Well, maybe you won't find it the same as I do, but here, the way she replied on page 9:

* All votes are revealed after all players have voted. Any player who has received a majority of the votes will be lynched and the game will proceed to night.

I interpretted this to mean revealed like Survivor style. The votes are revealed, but not who voted them.

This is exactly why I asked the question, and yet people find it scummy when I want clarification.

I told you why I had an issue. If the mod tells us who voted for who we can see the groups and have knoweledge more knoweledge then day one. I thought Rishi's statment meant we would know who voted for who. Hmmm? I don't want to know and won't say more about my thoughts on this for very good reason.

[Holy]

^somewhat it feels like OMGUS-ing opie, but it's not really the same, kind of weird though, lol.

Btw, how's your reading progress Mgm?

[Holy]

P.S. It might not be exactly the same, but when I posted that, I had OMGUS in mind so you might as well call it what it is.

Ah~ very nice of you to admit it ^_^

[Holy]

Hm, quite interesting case from farside there. If Opie couldn't answer satisfyingly, I might end-up with voting him today. Farside's right, Opie seems like just following people along so far. With this, if Opie turned out scum, maybe I'm wrong about Shanba, I guess.

[Holy]

Holy: follower. IGMEOY.

Akonas, farside has a good point about her case, anyway I've consider farside likely townie, so far. So I don't mind evaluating this case.
I'm still waiting Opie's answer, and I still find Mgm scummier than Opie. But if I found Opie's answer unsatisfying, I might change my mind though.

[Holy]

LOL! XD

Allright, I don't need a confession, I'm pretty sure Mgm is scum.

Open Polls

Obviously, yesterday lynch tendency was on Mgm or Opie, and last night my Vote was bought by the Politician, which I believe that a Politician means scum.

We are now 5 townies VS 2 scum, so I need all the townies to co-operate because now I know that the scum can buy a vote. And if anyone thinks that a vote bought to take down Opie and saved Mgm didn't means Mgm is scum, tell me right now of why.

Yes, I noticed that although my vote not bought by the politician, Opie still lynched with 1 vote difference, but it didn't change the fact of yesterday tendency and our clueless result might be.

[Holy]

^lol!

Just re-read then, and tell us your opinion after that.

^.~

[Holy]

And if anyone thinks that a vote bought to take down Opie and saved Mgm didn't means Mgm is scum, tell me right now of why.

I see, I got good and bad reactions here. Let me

Un-Open Polls

for awhile.


@Qman: I don't think at N0, Akonas got a result though, he did a 'self-immunity' as far as I can remember. Honestly, I don't think that as a joke-immunity-vote. Hm, I should re-read it. Oh, and Qman, it's undo-able, that's why I decided to do that, it's good to get a reaction too.

@Mgm, I've asked > "... tell me right now of why." ^

@farside22: I'll search that, when talking with Shanba thing.

@Gorgon:
1. I absolutely don't have any idea of why.
2. Hm, I decided to reveal this info, because I don't think make it a secret will help the town. While revealing it, won't hurt anyone but scum.
3. Especially because the vote was bought to make sure Opie (townie) lynched, yeah, I don't think it's a pro-town ability too.

[Holy]

OMG, I was busy, and we're still on this same page since my last post. I'll search soon (regarding my post #486) and especially re-read on Akonas, he might left a breadcrumb of his investigation result.
I was prioritizing my deadlined games, sorry.

[Holy]

Holy - Your whole argument is terrible, frankly. It assumes assumptions on top of assumptions to come to a stretched conclusion.

That's why I asked, mister! For I might be wrong. I suspect Mgm, because it saved his ass, but now I'm searching it, because most of you seems so sure that Akonas cleared him.

[Holy]

Yeah, finally I re-read Akonas, you're right he was soft on QB/Mgm.

I still don't get it though, Opie was townie, and if Mgm is townie too; why the hell the Politician (which I believe is scum) feel the need to bought a vote.

[Holy]

Even without the him maybe being cleared thing, it's bad. First, it assumes politician is a scum role. Second, it then assumes that the scum were trying to save MGM by moving your vote to opie. From that it draws the conclusion that MGM is scum.

Now, think. First, I haven't checked to see the accuracy of this yet, but we had spent a lot of effort making sure everyone was accountable for their vote - i.e. they had already indicated who they would be voting for. Scum should thus know that MGM was safe already. That's a flaw in the second assumption. Another is that scum might have done it for another reason - maybe, for example, to try and draw such a response as yours.

Then there's the first assumption. Look at the nature of the vote thief/doublevoter role. For town, these are reasonably powerful roles - the doublevoter being less skill dependent than the vote thief, but both being useful, but not gamebreaking roles. Part of their power, though, comes from the fact that a proven doublevoter/vote thief is all but confirmed. Why? Because of how insanely powerful they are for scum. For scum, they essentially move the endgame one day forwards - scum need to get one less mislynch. That's very powerful, especially because, ordinarily, town are not expecting it - a doublevoter is a role you would keep hidden to catch town unawares. A town normally going into lylo is incredibly careful about quicklynches etc. If they don't realise it's lylo because of the doulevoter, well... you can see how that could be powerful. Vote thief is even worse, as it allows the scum to take away a townie's vote as well as have an extra vote. I've never seen a scum vote thief or doublevoter. I hope never to see one in a 12 player game - it might be possible in a larger game where edges like that are blurred. Rishi would know this.

Ah, I see. I searched about the Politician, I guess you're right about Politician not an Antagonist role.
But I don't think the Scum can be so sure whether someone safe already or not, not all confirmed their vote, some still saying need to read between their main suspects, we're free to change minds though.

[Holy]

I'm still suspicious of Holy, but most of it comes from Arkonas comments. Even though I don't believe he had a guilty on her I think he was highly suspicious of her.

You're free to suspect me, but please back this up in a bit more sensible way, just a bit is okay.

@Qman: When re-reading Akonas, I somewhat got that impression too. I guess, it might be QB and Rigel that cleared though.

After re-read Akonas, I think I need to full re-read Day 2.
NB: I'm still sorting my games at the moment, my Freaktown game need my attention, it's almost a week I left it, so I guess my re-read on here will halted a day or two.

[Holy]

Holy

votes for me for pointing out that sef immunity can look scummie. Felt her comments back were just weak in regards to her "pressure vote". Day one started strong and went blah after. hascow was on her list of active scumhunters

(how was hascow and active scumhunter?)

Talks about posting our suspects, but didn't do it during the statement. Her first top 3 was hascow, Arkonas and Rigel.

(When did she go from hascow active scumhunter to scum suspect.)

She echoed something already stated about hascow from others. Thought about Akonas more then hascow do to more then 1 scum group comment. Day 2 thinks people should ask her to say more? Nothing added when pressed. States two post later that she is busy. Big long post that really offered nothing about who she felt was scum except Shanba. Claiming she was target by someone to move her vote and assumed scum. Interesting side note: voted day 1 against Akonas over hascow.

Why should I explain this over and over again farside (because of my language barrier)? Because we clearly knew who we are, and we (excluding scums) don't know anything about others clearly, and because you seem can not understand about those kind of feeling, the frustration of not knowing, your suspicion for a self immunity was weird for me, I can't see that from scum as the first to do self immunity without well thought plan though.
A "pressure vote" to get more information about the person, in this kind of setup, I don't think will work. It's better to state our suspicions clearly against them and/or ask them of why they did what they did to understand the player more, like a civilized classic way.
At the

beginning

of Day 1, more than half of the town still MIA, hasdgfas was one of the active players at that time, posting his thoughts well. That means like a scumhunting effort for me. Btw, just because someone is an Active Scumhunter, it doesn't prove them as a pro-town.
I thought I was posting about HOW TO POST our suspects, not asking everyone to post their suspects for me.
From the moment I read hasdgfas' weird question to the mod, I already watched him, I noted it somewhere on my mind, but I still think it was Minor, didn't tell us much. And then I saw you posted the same curiosity about it, which means for me that I wasn't that unreasonable after all for suspecting that line from cow. And then, I was quick re-read before stating my suspects, and finally post it which you said was echoing.
Yeah, I was wrong about Akonas.
If I knew my regret/explanation on the beginning of Day 2 for my bad behaviour and for not involved better since Day 1 (which I fully aware when I did my re-read, that's why I wasn't complained much when Akonas FOS me) will used against me, I honestly feel it's better if I wasn't explain anything and got me lynched instead of Opie, yesterday.
So, guts feeling is scummy?
But, I WAS targeted by someone, my vote to Mgm moved to Opie. After I searched about the politician and after re-reading Akonas, reading his treatment towards QB, I don't think that as an attempt from the scum to save a scumpartner anymore.

Just to bump this and make my thoughts clearwhere I'm standing suspect wise

Possible Scum
Holy

Midrange in decending order
Farside
Elias
Gorgon
Shanba

Town
Mgm

I'd be willing to lynch holy or farside at this time, though a Holy lynch is much prefered.

Since I know I'll be asked, the reason I list farside second is I feel she engineered both lynches and I think we'd gain some valueable information out of knowing her alignment. That said, it isn't my prefered lynch nor something I'm really going to push for at the moment.

I'm always scummy though.
I want to give up that easy, but I know I'm town, we lynched one scum successfully, I won't "let" you lynched me if that makes the town lose another opportunity to lynch the real scum today.
I'm fully aware that it was farside who lead the Opie lynch, but I don't think she's scum, atm.


I haven't got a chance to re-read Day 2 like I said, maybe tomorrow.

[Holy]

^yeah, it just.. Scum could appear like they are actively scum hunting though. So, I'm not contradicting myself at all.

[Holy]

Finally I got a chance to read.
Many weird grammar on my posts :p

@Qman: so, what is this 'more than a slight' difference you found that you cannot agree on me?

I've read, I've been thinking of why each person did what they did.
I've reached my might be scum conclusion from it, I might be wrong, but opinion is opinion.

Shanba - First he attacked opie with a pretty weak grounds, but he admitted it afterwards, it's good. And then he did a little PBPA, on there he said that Boggzie apologetic way seems newbie, thus neutral read on him. Followed by fail reading the thread report. When he said he reached pg 5 twice, he told us that he found Boggzie play was scummy for him. I just don't get it, it's a sudden change from him. Boggzie's play didn't strike me as scummy, not before, not now. Shanba tends to quote and says his dislike of the quoted post before he attack, not quite showing if he's scum because of it, just something I noticed from his attack on opie and Boggzie. His excuse of fail re-reading because he found this game is dull, not seems came from townie, I think Akonas VS farside case was interesting; Boggzie's reaction, Rigel's way of thinking, etc. After that, he decided to take the game from 'there'. His answer to Akonas regarding Boggzie and Elias the replacement was pretty safe, IMO, not sure what to take from it. Then, he justified his not re-reading excuse quite well, but I don't think his excuse was pretty townie although seems right. Quoted Mgm, "Scummy post", he said. Really? Mgm is scummy, but that post showed you if he might be scum? I don't think so. But today, I should thanked him for pointing out why or where my conclusion is faulty, that lead me to search by myself about it :p

Gorgon - He said his vote for opie was mainly a lurker vote, he didn't particularly like opie's reaction, thus he end up voted him with that reason. It's quite contradictory with his belief about lurkers, which he said before. Before day 2 ended, farside building a case on opie, did you do your search about it? What's the difference between opie and Mgm, if your vote yesterday was really because of his lurks btw?

[Holy]

MGM was attacking farside and opie was attacking MGM. Farside made a post saying she was suspicious of opie. MGM then says something along the lines of "yes, that is a good point, maybe opie

is

more suspicious than you."

It's so incredibly convenient.

Yes,

that one post was enough to convince

me. It's a bit like in Civ IV, where you get + and - for various actions. Up to then, our relations had been neutral, but that was like a declaration of war, brining him down to annoyed (but not yet furious - that would have required a longer interaction.)

Well, not for me. He was considering it, not cheering it.
That's enough huh? You're just scum ;_;

Yes I would like to see a list of reason's.
Thank you for your response.

I hate the

decisive/indecisive

thing she does. She decisively votes farside, but constantly undermines herself by suggesting, for example,the vote was a pressure vote. She also

continually undermines herself

with WIFOM (I've never seen this before, tbh - I've seen people undermine themselves, and I've seen people undermine others with WIFOM, but I've never seen it used in such a way before. It's certainly interesting.)

Which is it? Oh right, basically you just hate everything I did. Why oh why ;_;
That was at the beginning of the game. The unofficial vote, which farside provides 'till now wasn't known what the effect would be. So far, it is quite effective I think, I didn't have a clue about that at that time. The mechanic in this game is different (remember?), and we were just began the game.

"continually undermines herself with WIFOM"

> And what's wrong with it?

Also in retrospect, this

namedrop

is interesting -

Rolling Eyes Well, farside22 is the most active scumhunter, but other active players did it quite well too (i.e. opie, hasdgfas, Akonas).

We know that opie and Akonas were town -

have you ever heard

of the idea that scum will have one out of three of their suspects as a scumpartner? It's remarkably accurate.

I wonder

whether the same is true here.

That one, that was when I did a quick visit, skimming, and mistakenly read something as a question. That was early in the game, the active posters were indeed farside, opie, hasdgfas, Akonas. Before hasdgfas went lurking.
That is a known tactic.
Don't wondering too much, just say your accusation, come on! O yeah, you did, in a sly way ;_;

BTW, Holy, where are you from?

Somewhere around SEA.

[Holy]

OK, for starters, why aren't we pseudovoting?

Players post

Pseudovote: Name

and we do the votecounts ourselves.

Once we have a lynch majority, all town players commit to voting for the vote leader.

If I'm the minority which not agree with the vote leader result, why should I follow it? :p

I mean to me it sounded like he didn't think Elias or I was scum one day and now has us as #2 and #3 as possible suspects.

Hey, I was "Slightly Pro-Town" for him, and today I'm his "Possible Scum", top suspect! Hm, I'm still neutral about Qman, I don't think he's scum though, I still need to observe him more, he's a unique case

[Holy]

Finally I got a chance to read.
Many weird grammar on my posts :p

@Qman: so, what is this 'more than a slight' difference you found that you cannot agree on me?

The way you opened day 3 really bothers me,

you clearly didn't look to see if

the cop breadcrumbed anyone and made what you must have known would be a futile move to push an MGM lynch, a confirmed townie. I'm not sure I understand why you did that and for now, you are at the top mainly for that.

Yes, I didn't. I'm not used with looking for a breadcrumb from the cop. What I knew my vote was bought, and I can see Akonas was the cop which is dead, nothing more, I didn't know Mgm was cleared. And I'm not that careless pushing a lynch blindly, actions for agreeing or not with the 'Open Polls' can be seen, we're able to see each person motives, and it is retractable: Un-Open Polls <

ALso on Holy,

her posts #511, and 525 are so riddled with wrong.

Holy using to much WIFOM does two major things A.) Makes what you say look uncredibile and B.) Is generally seen as a scummy thing when overused.

All townies will have small elements of WIFOM in thier arguements, yes. The keyword there is SMALL. Yours have huge amounts, and townies using to much WIFOM generally ends up with the townie swinging from a noose.

Post #525?

Which part of post #511 (If all, I just don't get it :p), this one?

"I'm always scummy though.
I want to give up that easy, but I know I'm town, we lynched one scum successfully, I won't "let" you lynched me if that makes the town lose another opportunity to lynch the real scum today."

There's nothing WIFOM-like from my arguments, I meant with what I say.

It's the guessing mind which make it WIFOM.
It's concerning your big suspicions, maybe that's why you think it's a huge WIFOM.
You're quite vague with your accusations there Qman, I'm starting to doubt you here ;_;
What exactly did you mean with this:

"and townies using to much WIFOM generally ends up with the townie swinging from a noose"

, btw? That I'm looking like a townie which lead my own lynch, or other townie lynch? '~'
You said I might be scum, and now I'm a WIFOMer townie? Just confess there! :p


I'll continue tomorrow morning, I need sleep now >.>

[Holy]

I didn't say were scum or a townie using WIFOM, i was making the point that IF YOU ARE TOWN, and you end up being lynched, it will be because of the

excessive amount of WIFOM you've been using. No more, no less.

Gah! POINT IT! Which is it that lead you to think it is WIFOM, explain your thinking/reason, if not you're just ending the discussion there.

On your immunity vote... why MGM? I know this might seem like a stupid question but I think MGM is the last person we should immunity.

Anyone voting for MGM at deadline is either an idiot or scum, and since the game isn't over the scum can't mislynch him alone. Giving him immunity seems a tad redundant at this point. Plus, from Akonas' death we already know that immunity doesn't carry over into the night like a doc protection, because Akonas just ended up dying night 2.

That said Immunity: Shanba.

Voting Mgm for immunity is not necessary, but it's not an idiot move.
Unlike yesterday case, there was no conflicting opinion regarding Akonas, granting him Immunity was only showing in the open who we (majority) think likely pro-town to the scum too early, and the lynch tendency wasn't directed to Akonas at all, it only gave scum knowledge which player likely hard to be driven to the lynch, I guess that's why he's dead now.
But today, I don't think I'm agree with you about Shanba, so voting for Mgm (although we understand if he won't be the lynch) has a better purpose now, that is to outnumbered the other candidate which I don't agree with.

Immunity: Mgm.

What's my belief about lurkers that you're talking about? Looking over my posts in this game, I don't see me mentioning lurkers up until I voted opie.

The difference between opie and Mgm? At the time I felt it was not overly great - but you have to vote for someone. Also, just before I 'voted' (Page 18), Mgm came through with a pretty hefty (for him) and interesting post on links between players, which made me think better of him.

It was on the same post, a couple paragraphs before your vote. Yeah, like you said, you mentioning it just before you voted opie.

This post (italicize):

Even though I have been a bit of a lurker in this game myself, I find it likely that scum may be found among the lurkers. In this regard, opie is looking particularily bad today. Shanba also hasn't contributed much, but his attitude towards it doesn't look that scummy to me (but this could be WIFOM, yadayadayda ...).

Of course, lack of contribution is not scummy in itself (as per my thoughts on Shanba),

but more than once have I seen lurkers come up town (or even played with them throughout the game, hearing them say that they intend to deliberately lurk)

.

So, I want more from opie, or I might end up voting him. He's my best lead right now. Not a great lead, but a lead nonetheless. It doesn't help that he calls from more content from other players, while not contributing much himself since then ...

With this in mind, I will informally

Vote: opie

Opie's lurk was just 'recently', maybe he got his reason, it didn't means he's scum. Farside's reasoning for he might be scum was much better than your justification though. From your answer, I took it that you were thinking Mgm was better than opie based from Mgm's posts on/since page #18, well, I can't see if posting links between players means that person is pro-town, but I'll accept that as your way of thinking then.

Mod, please replace me. I no longer enjoy mafia, and I am leaving the site. So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Well, farewell~

Throw, err... serve a bowl of soup to Gorgon

^.~

[Holy]

On your immunity vote... why MGM? I know this might seem like a stupid question but I think MGM is the last person we should immunity.

Anyone voting for MGM at deadline is either an idiot or scum, and since the game isn't over the scum can't mislynch him alone. Giving him immunity seems a tad redundant at this point. Plus, from Akonas' death we already know that immunity doesn't carry over into the night like a doc protection, because Akonas just ended up dying night 2.

That said Immunity: Shanba.

For the record, I didn't say voting MGM immunity was stupid/scummy/idiotic, i said anyone voting MGM for lynch was idiotic/stupid/scummy.

Sorry, bad habit. Was skim read :p

But, I still not agree with Shanba, thus voting Immunity for Mgm is a good move, at least for me.

[Holy]

^Sorry, broken tag. Both quotes were Qman's.

[Holy]

Yes, I didn't. I'm not used with looking for a breadcrumb from the cop.

Really? Unless I died during the same night, ripping apart everything the cop said is pretty much my first priority the morning after they die.

So, what did you found then? :p
Visibly, he cleared you on N0, and got nothing on N1. That's all I got. Well..., and a possibility we have an RB in here.

[Holy]

@farside22: We still have Qman-case, Gorgon-case was sort of weak, not enough evidence. My top still Shanba :p
Will re-read those three sometime before deadline.
Well...yeah, those words are from one of the top suspects of the town, i.e. me >.>

[Holy]

I didn't say were scum or a townie using WIFOM, i was making the point that IF YOU ARE TOWN, and you end up being lynched, it will be because of the

excessive amount of WIFOM you've been using. No more, no less.

Gah! POINT IT! Which is it that lead you to think it is WIFOM, explain your thinking/reason, if not you're just ending the discussion there.

As soon as I have the time to sift through the game I will, I dont right now (I work 12 hour days on the weekends, it'll probably have to wait till monday)

Btw, the more you prolong to provide the WIFOMs you accused me of, the more I think you're likely the scum ;_;
You were posting (without mentioning it at all) in here yesterday. Is it avoidance? You accused me, you must be knew which arguments, is it so hard to find what you accused me for in a more specific way? You just need to point it and throw a quick comment (as an opening) based from your suspicion >.>

[Holy]

OK.

Holy's top suspect is shanba.

Qman is most certain Shanba is town out of pretty much everyone, with the possible exception of Mgm (who needs prodding btw).

Would either care to explain?

You should re-read Shanba first, before read my post #522 (< it's maybe what Qman meant with WIFOMs :p) + #524 (on page 21) to understand my reason.

"continually undermines herself with WIFOM"

> And what's wrong with it?

Btw, he wasn't responding at all for that. Just say it, if he thinks I'm scummy for it, but what he posted was just a hanging comments. In addition, I don't feel any real scum hunting effort from him 'till now.

[Holy]

I've had very limited time on site as of late, I'm working to catch up now. Making my post on Holy's WIFOM will require a re-read. It's still being worked on.

Thank you for your explanation
Btw, are you trusting Shanba just because he was right about some mechanic things?
Although I don't really believe with Shanba's "innocence", but what is it from him that make you think he is pro-town? (maybe I'm just wrong, but I really feel he's not really scum hunting)

I still have a fairly townish read on him, although farside and Elias both look okay at the moment. At least they have been very active today, even it's through an argument I haven't been able to follow that well (For some reason I usually find it hard to concentrate when trying to keep up with two people 'bickering' in mafia. I just tend to zone out while reading that kind of stuff. ). Saying that they both look town could be a cheap cop-out, but heck, I'll say it as well.

After a brief reread, farside even reads pretty town to me. Not so sure about Elias, especially because of Boggzie - but he's certainly not uberscummy.

Basically he just goes back and forth. I felt like he was trying to just throw things out there to see what sticks without really doing anything.

That last quote is from page 18, the same post about his thoughts on lurkers as neutral, followed by accusing opie for not really active since day 2, and ended up with him voting opie.

[Holy]

O noez, hi Skruffs!

[Holy]

Somehow true... But that kind of action seems attracting attentions, I still have a doubt that a scum would attract attention like that.

Sure they would, for that exact reason. WIFOM

That just careless in my eyes. Fine, it happens, the careless scum would, but a good scum gain it from others willingly without much controversy from their 'good' appearance' on townies eyes.

@Holy:

How would it be pro-town to vote for yourself for immunity?

A townie knew that him/herself is innocents but didn't have insight of his/her other innocents ally, we didn't know who to trust but ourselves of course. I didn't say it was a pro-town move, but he might be just didn't trust anybody at all for now (yes, I doubt scum would do that as the first, but after this whole discussion maybe they might do that someday), that's it.

Scum would do the same thing.

So would a townie. Do you have anything more than this repetitive of 'who would do what' things? Why don't you brought that up before, why do you wait 'till now to "discuss" it?

Yesterday, near deadline, around page 9 and 10, I found the wagon was between hasdgfas and Akonas, the possibility of Akonas and hasdgfas lynch was somewhat 50-50 on the air. But with hasdgfas himself (that turned out indeed was the mafia) supporting the Akonas lynch and then with his vote history on Akonas, I don't think that Akonas is the mafia because the high probability that Akonas's the one who might be lynched with hasdgfas' vote-to-lynch effort contribution.

Distancing? I understand we now know Akonas was a cop but at the time this was WIFOM.

It didn't feels like an intentional distancing

when I reading

the arguments between them. It's proven now.

Noticing on a re-read Holy makes a lot if “I suspect this person, but I’m not sure. I’m might change my mind/be convinced otherwise posts.” A lot of waffling and willingness to listen, but she doesn’t really stand firm on her own cases either.

Because I don't have the scum knowledge, duh! On day 1 and day 2, not much I can learn about each player to find out which likely is the scum from their behaviour, certainty without knowledge is foolish.

Hm, quite interesting case from farside there. If Opie couldn't answer satisfyingly, I might end-up with voting him today. Farside's right, Opie seems like just following people along so far. With this, if Opie turned out scum, maybe I'm wrong about Shanba, I guess.

Waffle more. More than anything your language use bothers me up to now, you use a lot of fence riding phrases.

Fence riding phrases are MS scumtell, right... I forgot about that. Please forgive this stupid clueless townie ;_;

NO! I JUST

haven't learned much about Opie, I did my re-read before I voted, I've reached my conclusion if Opie-case was so wrong, although my vote history didn't really help me there to convince anybody.

Then she comes out of the gate with the Open Polls because of a vote move, reasoning it must be MGM, because her vote was moved off him.

LOL! XD

Allright, I don't need a confession, I'm pretty sure Mgm is scum.

Open Polls

Obviously, yesterday lynch tendency was on Mgm or Opie, and last night my Vote was bought by the Politician, which I believe that a Politician means scum.

We are now 5 townies VS 2 scum, so I need all the townies to co-operate because now I know that the scum can buy a vote. And if anyone thinks that a vote bought to take down Opie and saved Mgm didn't means Mgm is scum, tell me right now of why.

Yes, I noticed that although my vote not bought by the politician, Opie still lynched with 1 vote difference, but it didn't change the fact of yesterday tendency and our clueless result might be.

She then rereads and pulls back on the above, after people explain why the vote mover is almost certainly a pro town role. The long term full game fence sitting bothers me, and there are other moments of WIFOM I didn’t pull. It might just be her playstyle, but if feels to me like Holy straddles the fence for a while, then comes down on one side, the gets back on it, then goes for the other side.

If Akonas didn't clear him, I'm still pretty sure if Mgm is scum. My bad... :p
I prefer to consider all the probabilities, not shutting down any possibilities. I'm still saying my opinions and not staying quiet/being unreadable. I know nothing about a Politician-role in Mafia, a real Politician

in general

usually dirty

(consequences of walking in politic career)

, when I was objected about how wrong it might be (I'm not free from human mistakes ), so, I reconsider my thinking, searched about it and found out if I was wrong with my generalization. Thanks to mscumB.swf from MBF :p

[Holy]

Qman, Holy - are either of you actually going to be convinced of my innocence/scumminess by arguing with each other? If not, there's no point arguing and it will simply act as a smokescreen.

We're arguing each other because he thinks I'm teh scum :p

Btw, arguing is okay, but all he did was quoting me and labeling it with 'WIFOM' without much elaboration about his suspicion (for my wording or behaviour?) to the quoted posts.
I've argued about the self-immunity vote on day 1 and accept it as a null-tell in the process, but no, he chose to quote it solely, perhaps for a bigger effect.

Holy - if you were to lynch me and I turned up town, who would be your next top suspect? How likely do you think that is? How confident are you that MGM is indeed clear? What about a godfather role?

I'm pretty sure (at least 85%) you would turned up scum :p
Watching Qman's crap-case, I guess, it would be Qman. Farside's case against me today was far much better, it has her opinion there.
Hm, at least QB was okay in my eyes, better than Mgm, I haven't think about the godfather, but remembering QB and Akonas' result, I don't mind giving the benefit of the doubts to Mgm.

But I must admit, Skruffs/Gorgon/ibaesha are quite vague for me, not much can be read from them to understand more, Skruffs you need to elaborate your

"Hmm."

, please ;_;

[Holy]

@Holy, so my case on you, and my belief you are scum, would make you think I'm scum if shanba turned up town? Interesting.

Dear Qman, my suspicion against you has nothing to do with 'if Shanba turned up town', which I highly doubt it. But yes, it's because you're pulling a crap case against me, unlike other players who also suspect me.
I've re-read you again, and I'm still not sure if you're scum, but lately you're really pinging my scumdar, terribly. My top two still Shanba and Skruffs/Gorgon though.

@farside, I only pulled the highlights, but she has been WIFOM heavy. I said that WIFOM tends to get townies lynched if overdone, and she comes after me for it, and says it's only WIFOM in the guessing mind? What the hell does that mean?

If I'm not mistaken, we were arguing about my arguments (in general, right?) which you accused "have huge amounts" of WIFOM (btw, if you weren't satisfied with my answer, why didn't you say so, sigh...), and you seemed really dislike my arguments, thus made me wonder if others see it the same too, WIFOM-like in this case. I don't think my words are WIFOM-like, but perhaps in others eyes they are (thanks to you :p ), although what I'm saying are truly what I'm thinking or feeling about things, nothing fabricated. (Well, only scum would really accept my words as it stands, although they may use it to bring me down :p )
And why are you so worried if my words would make a 'townie' lynched, it's not like we have a Shanba case atm besides from me, they read my case against Shanba, but it doesn't mean that they can't decide not-to follow me if they think I'm wrong based from their experiences.

[Holy]

Sorry all, I'm having an internet connection problem at home from my ISP.

I'm posting this from public computer at my office, per user, we aren't allowed to access the internet, I'll visit an internet cafe after work to post and read the game.

[Holy]

@Fonz & Mgm: my earlier Immunity vote to Qman was random, I didn't have much 'pages to read' to be quite sure of each player townness on Day 1. And today, not only Qman who attacked me, Shanba and farside also questioned me, but Shanba's accusation to me was more about some mechanic thing, not many behavioral analysis about me for why I'm scum or not for him. And farside accusation was fair to me, I can see/understand why she came to that conclusion about me. But not from Qman's case, he was exaggerating for me, I'm afraid I might be wrong about him, so it lead me to re-read Qman, from there I'm still doubting him as scum.

I've said my top scum suspects are, it's Shanba and Skruffs, we're deadlined and I'm already all over scummy anyway, I have my suspects from narrowing the players of who I think is pro-town. Farside22 and Elias/Fonz are pretty much feel like pro-town in my eyes. Qman in the middle, and Mgm is cleared by Akonas.

[Holy]

I still don't understand why I was lynched, to be honest. Anyone want to explain that to me?

Villager's thirst for blood~, I suppose.. :p


Too bad, no one

(in)

sane enough for agreeing with scummy-me to take skruffs down except farside. And it was stolen for my head too, lol.

[Holy]

Think Survivor.

When you are immune, the other two people can only vote for each other. Ergo your vote is the deciding vote. No matter who you voted for, it would result in a win. Once you got immunity town was toast.

Erhm!

Immunity Skruff

Hmm. I did negate the random immunity rule, but I guess intentional immunity is still okay.

[Holy]

^Never mind...
I thought the Immunity-rule was disabled last round. But it seems I'm wrong, the random immunity rule was the one that disabled.