Mini 535: Pick Your Poison 2 (Game Over!)

[Gorrad]

I'm with y'all,

Vote: GF and Encryptor

[Gorrad]

Heck, I'm good with encryptor still.

Vote: Encryptor

[Gorrad]

Yeah, Ether, I don't quite understand either. You voted Bookitty, then in your next vote it seemed to me like you were defending her. I get your confusion, but I don't see how it's a scumtell.

Vote: Ether

.

[Gorrad]

Scotmany, if you're not sure we have a vig, what DO you think we have?

[Gorrad]

Hey town, it seems that I've drawn some attention to myself. The main reason why I'm jumping bandwagons is because I'm trying out a different playstyle in this game. You might not believe me, but it's true. I've never had much pressure on me and I want to see how I respond when the spotlight's on me.

The second reason is mostly because I want to generate a different discussion. From what I could see, it was mostly an Ether vs Bookitty thing going on (which I think is blown out of proportion) and most of the players were lurking (some still are). I'm not speaking for the other players, but I think a lot of us couldn't add anything to that discussion, and therefore didn't post anything of substance. Well, at least that was how it was for me.

Well, I'm explaining my actions and if you still find them scummy, feel free to put some votes on me and continue to interrogate me. I won't pretend that jumping bandwagons is pro-town but I ain't the scum you're hunting for.

I don't like this at all. I'm reading this as 'Please ignore the fact that I'm being scummy, I'm being so on purpose.' If we do that, then there's really no way to create an argument against you- you'll just say you did something scummy on purpose.

Unvote, Vote: YvonneSeer

. I think everything's a trap, that's why I'm still alive.

[Gorrad]

Sure thing. Ether, I really think you and Bookitty are both town, and were really not arguing hard, more of a debate. If one of y'all HAD to be scum, it would be you, but I really think y'all are both pro-town.

Skitzer, on the other hand, is pretty scummy. I didn't like the weak-doc deal one bit. I still feel my vote is better on Yvonne though.

[Gorrad]

Ok, reread, and here's my scumlist:

1. YvonneSeer: Admitting to acting scummy on purpose
2. Skitzer: Bad posting in general, and could just have forgotten about Encryptor
3. thedragonprincess: Lurking

Also, I'm all for the hypovig idea. That seems like a really good plan.

[Gorrad]

could just have forgotten about Encryptor

Attributing sinister

intent

to Skitzer's posts is a horrible stretch. Damn this wagon sucks.

I think everything's a trap, that's why I'm still alive.

Encryptor's not a very common role, I think this is the first game I've played that has it, so it's not a stretch that scum would forget about it. Especially Skitzer, who has already claimed to have forgotten what one of the town power roles does.

[Gorrad]

Because skitzer's lone tell is still more solid than the various points against perfect.

Agreed, but Yvonne's play is worse.

[Gorrad]

Back from vacation. All this talk lately honestly just seems like townies snipping at each other. Lots of fluff, WIFOM, and really nothing consice in my eyes. JDodge has it right, just post what you have to say, give reasons, but don't give a wall of text that makes my eyes glaze over. Yvonne's still the big scum in my eyes.

[Gorrad]

The big tell for me is that she admitted to purposefully acting scummy so she can see how she reacts to it. That's saying that she wants us to ignore the fact that she is scummy, and just attribute all her scummy behavior to the fact that it's on purpose. Well, if it's true that she wanted to see how she'd react, she wouldn't have bloody admitted it, it ruins the experiment! So the only reason I can possibly see that she said that would be to cover up the fact that she is, as she said, not used to being under pressure. This would mean she's not used to being scum, like she is now, so she's covering up for any noobish mistakes she might make ahead of time by saying she's acting scummy on purpose.

In addition, even if YS was just being stupid when admitting to it and actually IS purposefully acting scummy, how can that be beneficial to the town? It destracts from the real scum! YS, you made a terrible mistake trying to cover up for yourself, and I'm just glad we've caught a scum on day one. I have no doubts that YS is where my vote should stay.

I hope that explains it, Skitzer.

[Gorrad]

It wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it's neccesary.

[Gorrad]

In other news, Lulubelle is also scum. I hate her distraction comment just now: Yvonne's barely

posted

since she replaced in.

Yvonne didn't replace in. She's been here since the beginning.

[Gorrad]

For what it's worth, I've known plenty of scum who have offered themselves when the going gets tough. It's a standard gambit, completely unsurprising. Heck, I've done it myself when I was scum in a bind. The only thing that would make me not sure that she's scum is that Yvonne's list matches fairly well with mine, and I'm wondering if she's taken the gambit far enough to out one or more of her scumbuddies to seem town. Overall, though, I'm still not impressed with her recent defenses.

[Gorrad]

On scotmany12 I would be more interested in hearing other opinions. I am unsure if he's seriously scummy or just plain

stubborn

.

I've played with Scot before, and I'm pretty sure this is just his normal playstyle. He tends to be pretty wishy-washy scum in my experience.

[Gorrad]

Nice catch, Mizzy. Skitzer, will you clarify this please? I don't like it at all, but I'm willing to give you a shot at defending yourself.

[Gorrad]

I forgot I said that. My philosophy changed.

Claim: Cop.

That way, If I get lynched, It'll be because I told the truth.

BS

HAMMAH! Unvote, Vote: Skitzer

[Gorrad]

I'm guessing the same reason I am, carryover from yesterday. She was only not on top of my scum list yesterday because of Skitzer's 'change of philosophy'.

Vote: YvonneSeer

Also, Ether, any particular reason you're voting me? I'd like to have something to defend myself against.

[Gorrad]

Heheh, very funny analogy Mizzy. Ether, the only reason I can think of is because I hammered. There's no way I can defend myself there- he was acting very scummy and claimed in a way I completely failed to believe. It sucks that he was the Cop, but I apologise for nothing.

[Gorrad]

I already said that I completely did not believe his claim. I didn't and still don't see why the scum would give us cop. I didn't vote when I did because I thought others would unvote, I did so because every single sign was pointing towards him being scum, and I vote people when that happens. It doesn't matter if it's the fist vote, the third vote, the last vote, whatever! When I find someone scummy, I vote them.

[Gorrad]

Even if you had extremely high suspicions of him being scum, why couldn't you just post your thoughts that you didn't believe his cop claim but without hammering until we heard from the others? It clearly shows that you were afraid to lose your chance to lynch the cop, and you knew for sure there was a cop and he was it, because you and your scumbuddies chose it.

Ok, how's this: Even if I did, as you say, vote as soon as I did to prevent others from unvoting, what's to say that I did it to lynch the cop? He was playing terribly, you have to admit that, and there was no doubt in my mind at the time that he was lying. I could have been voting quickly because I didn't want others to be swayed by what I percieved to be his lies. I didn't vote for that reason, of course, but if that's all you're basing a vote on me for, don't go about stating that there's only one reason for my actions.

Your argument is pure guesswork, Yvonne, grasping at straws in my opinion. I'd hazard a guess that the reason you're targetting me has more to do with OMGUS. After all, you've been top of my scumlist for the vast majority of this game. Give me a single tangible point against me other than when I happened to vote.

"Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so"

[Gorrad]

I was headstrong and sure of myself. There was no doubt in my mind that Skitzer was lying through his teeth. So I voted right away without thinking.

[Gorrad]

That was directed towards Scot, but I suppose it works as a response to Yvonne as well.

[Gorrad]

I was headstrong and sure of myself. There was no doubt in my mind that Skitzer was lying through his teeth. So I

voted right away without thinking.

Sorry, that is not pro-town. You are scum.

I'm sorry, I misspoke. I didn't think that others would want to even possibly want to not lynch him. His claim was, in my eyes, complete BS. I still have no clue WHY the scum would want to give us cop.

[Gorrad]

Secondly, you're implying that the cop is a role you never expected scum to give us, so you thought it was bullshit.

I imply nothing. I'm openly stating that I NEVER expected scum to give us cop. If anyone has a theory, I'd bloody well like to hear it!

[Gorrad]

Secondly, you're implying that the cop is a role you never expected scum to give us, so you thought it was bullshit.

I imply nothing. I'm openly stating that I NEVER expected scum to give us cop. If anyone has a theory, I'd bloody well like to hear it!

You're implying that because of the apparent implausibility of having a cop among us, you thought the claim was a fakeclaim. If you're not implying this, then discussing why the scum gave us a cop has nothing to do with you or me.

Ok, I'll openly state this too. Because I thought that a cop was a nigh-impossible role to have among us, as well as with the fact that, due to a possibility of insanity, it would be considerably easy to fake, I found that Skitzer's claim was BS and therefore I voted him.

If he was scum, he could have easily claimed results the next day, saying that he was insane once they led to lynched town. The next day, he could claim that he got an inocent result, leading the town to ANOTHER lynched townie. He'd be killed the third day, but not after taking at least two lynched townies with him. Also, as I thought that there was no chance for there to be a cop, I figured there wouldn't be a counterclaim.

[Gorrad]

It also makes me wonder....Gorrad SAW me asking questions and not unvoting. Convenient.

I don't follow.

[Gorrad]

I was not curious at all, and frankly found the point irrelivant. It seems to me, from early day 1 and pre-game, that the consensus was that there was a weak doc. No matter how he answered, and there's really only one way he COULD answer, niether of our opinions would have changed.

[Gorrad]

Nice catch, Mizzy. Skitzer, will you clarify this please? I don't like it at all, but I'm willing to give you a shot at defending yourself.

I forgot I said that. My philosophy changed.

This is why I voted. I told him I'd give him a shot to explain his abrupt, significant change in attitude, his only response was that he changed his mind. The what-I-thought-to-be-BS claim was just icing on the cake.

[Gorrad]

Good claim, Mizzy.

[Gorrad]

I don't think now's the time for the final powerrole to claim. Yeah, it lets us afford some mislynches, but if, like JDodge states, the final role is protection, then tommorow all the town would have left would be mason. Now, don't get me wrong, mason's good peoples, but compared to a protection role they're not nearly as good. If the doc or weak doc doesn't claim, at least not this early, we have a good shot at a) getting another cleared and/or b) blocking another NK. If both of those happen, we'd have to screw up hard to lose.

[Gorrad]

I also support option 3.

If I was a weak doc, I would have protected Ether.

[Gorrad]

I noticed that too mizzy. He subtlety defends gorrad. Like in this post

I was headstrong and sure of myself. There was no doubt in my mind that Skitzer was lying through his teeth. So I

voted right away without thinking.

Sorry, that is not pro-town. You are scum.

Hmmm... whats that I smell... oh yeah, bullshit.

Not pro-town =/= scum. I love the way you can automatically get scum from the most crappy places. your arguments are worse than the arguments for going into Iraq... Im currently wating for the "your scum because my cat says so" argument... (althought thats probably what skitzer would of said...)

Porochaz's not wrong about the first part, you know. I don't think he's THAT scummy, just not on his game. As for defending me, is that wrong? It's a valid point.

[Gorrad]

I'm going to trust JDodge on this. He's seemed very protown so far and I don't expect he's trying to out the doc. As for Poro, I see his scumminess, but Yvonne still seems to be the better lynch in my eyes. Poro could well be tommorow's lynch.

[Gorrad]

I don't see the Setael case other than Ether suddenly claiming her scum. Clarification please?

[Gorrad]

@Setael:

I'm following Ether because:

A) Because she's the only person here who I know is town (who is alive.)

B) Because I respect her intelligence.
C) There are aspects and posts of yours that I do find scummy.
D) You're nowhere near a lynch and I want to see how you react to this.
E) I want to see how others react to this.
F) It was fun.

Setael is scummy as hell, yes

Which is it?

[Gorrad]

Ok, then I refer you back four posts. Why is she scummy?

[Gorrad]

3) The doc does not claim, and is instructed to protect/investigate someone by the town without revealing himself/herself. This in effect gives us a cop investigation at night, that would work on the Godfather as well. If the doc turns up dead, then we know who he/she investigated. If the doc is alive, then we have one more pro-town player to add to our list (I don't know that I would try this beyond one more night, because then the possibilities for a NK become a little too favourable to scum, perhaps.)

What ever happened to this idea? It seemed like a good plan to me, and I'd be more than happy to volunteer to be the protected person, seein' as how it looks like I'm one of the scummier people to y'all and this way I'll be cleared for tommorow.

[Gorrad]

I agree that Kitty is likely town. Scot's still iffy to me, I'd give him maybe a 65% chance of being town at this point.

[Gorrad]

The problem is that all NK results look identical.

[Gorrad]

Well, if everyone states someone who they would protect tonight if they were the weak doc, then if tommorow if we find him/her dead, we'll know who they targetted and the scum won't beforehand. This greatly decreases the odds of scum not NKing and prevents the weak doc from having to protect his/herself. Thoughts?

[Gorrad]

Ok let's take a vote.

Yes: JDodge, Gorrad
No:

Not voting: Everyone else

[Gorrad]

Clarification- Re: whether or not to claim who we'd protect tonight.

[Gorrad]

If we claim who we would protect, then if the weak doc dies, we'd know who he targetted. Also, during the night, the scum won't know for certain that the weak doc is targetting scum or not, so it'll be less likely for them to no-kill.

Note: For these purposes, I'm assuming Weak Doc. It could be doc, but this argument is assuming it's not.

[Gorrad]

I believe I also stated I support JDodge's plan.

[Gorrad]

I would have protected Ether yesterday

I would protect Yvonne tonight

[Gorrad]

I would have protected Bookie.

From his first bout of claiming.

[Gorrad]

I'd protect Setael.

And of course I went and misread what night you were refering to ><. My bad.

[Gorrad]

Hey town, it seems that I've drawn some attention to myself.

The main reason why I'm jumping bandwagons is because I'm trying out a different playstyle in this game. You might not believe me, but it's true. I've never had much pressure on me and I want to see how I respond when the spotlight's on me.

The second reason is mostly because I want to generate a different discussion. From what I could see, it was mostly an Ether vs Bookitty thing going on (which I think is blown out of proportion) and most of the players were lurking (some still are). I'm not speaking for the other players, but I think a lot of us couldn't add anything to that discussion, and therefore didn't post anything of substance. Well, at least that was how it was for me.

Well, I'm explaining my actions and if you still find them scummy, feel free to put some votes on me and continue to interrogate me.

I won't pretend that jumping bandwagons is pro-town

but I ain't the scum you're hunting for.

Here's the post in question, Yos. She's intentionally drawing attention to herself by acting scummy. According to her, she wants to see how she responds in the spotlight. The spotlight shines on those who act very scummy or very pro-town, she admits not not acting protown, therefore she admits to being scummy on purpose. The ONLY good reason I can see someone making this post is so that later they have a get-out-of-jail-free card saying 'Yeah, I acted scummy on purpose like I said I would'.

If she had been telling the truth in this post, she wouldn't have made it- by doing so, she ruined the experiment. If she REALLY wanted to see how she acted in the spotlight, she would have bloody well STAYED in the spotlight rather than using this excuse as a way to get out of it.

[Gorrad]

Unvote

I'm going to vote Chaz as soon as Yos posts his did/will protect post. The Yvonne wagon's going nowhere and Chaz is my second choice. I don't care if this is L-1 or hammer vote, the only thing holding up the day is Yos.

[Gorrad]

Unvote, vote: Gorrad

I love the way Yos attacks you and suddenly you want the day to end RIGHTNOW

Maybe I'm just impatient. He can reread during the night, and we're all just sitting here, waiting for the last bit of info. Yos can think whatever he wants. I stand by what I've said and if he thinks they're scummy, whoop de doo. I'm pretty sure I've already flogged the horse of these dead points with a wet noodle into oblivion.

Vote: Chaz

, less chance of quicklynch.

@ Mizzy: I said I'm sorry for that earlier one. Porochaz is claimed vanilla so I won't make the same mistake and, if what I've seen is correct, people agree with me on his scumminess. I'm not afraid to hammer those who need hammering, so sue me.

[Gorrad]

Lol. Gorrad asks to be targeted by the weak doc so he can be “cleared”. Dear God this guy is scummy.

Now THIS is a point I haven't addressed. About time. Here's the rebuttal: What in the nine rings is in it for me if I'm scum? One town for one scum is always a good trade, even in a setup like this. I've been supporting JD's plan this whole time, remember? If the weak doc dies tonight and I'm targetted by them, I'm lynched either frikkin' way. I'd like to survive till endgame thanks. Especially with all the yelling at me now, I wholeheartedly encourage people to target me tonight so I won't have to put up with it any more.

[Gorrad]

If you know the weak doc is going to target you, and you're scum, then the scum don't kill tonight.

Yeah, but that's the beauty of JD's plan as opposed to everyone targetting me. The scum DON'T know I'll be targetted, and risk a no-NK night two nights in a row.

[Gorrad]

(shrug) JD's plan helps the scum narrow down who might be the doctor or the weak doctor. And since everyone's claiming who they're targeting tonight, it's quite likely the sucm will in fact be able to figure out if one of them will be targeted tonight or not.

And that's where you and I differ in opinion.

[Gorrad]

Your other points are my 'wishy-washy' posts and my 'defending' posts, which I can't produce argument against, and my hammer, which I've already fully frikkin' explained. If there's anything else that I've missed, go ahead and let me know.

[Gorrad]

It was scummy for me to hammer the cop. I've apologized for that. It was scummy for me to not ask first. I apologized for that too. It was NOT scummy for me to hammer Skitzer. There was zero doubt in my mind he was lying and choosing a powerrole that no one would counterclaim because, hey, I thought there was no CHANCE that the scum would give us cop. I was wrong. I'm sorry I was wrong, but I was wrong.

The post you quoted was not meant to excuse my actions, but only to show that people shouldn't jump to conclusions for my reasoning. I didn't vote to stop others from unvoting, but even if I did it wouldn't mean I was scum. It would be scummy, yes, but not a sure thing. That's what that post meant.

In regards to YS, I don't think I misrepresented her. She's still top of my list, and I've explained why. You disagree? Fine. I've shown my points against her, and I can't force you to agree.

[Gorrad]

Gorrad did you just say your hammer was both scummy and not scummy? You say it was not scummy of you to hammer skitzer, but that is was scummy to hammer to cop. Like, wtf. Explain what you meant by this.

The fact that I lynched a claimed cop would be very scummy IF IT WEREN'T THIS SITUATION. The way Skitzer was acting and claimed, I feel no regrets about hammering him. I do regret the fact that he was indeed a cop, and that I didn't think to wait for others' opinions. If I was in the same position as then, I would wait significantly longer before doing so, but I still would vote.

[Gorrad]

I went back to look for quotes, and found this beauty. It pretty much sums up my thoughts then in a nutshell. I hadn't said much about Skitzer before because not only was I rather tunnel-visioned on YS, but everyone else was covering his scumminess just fine.

And I should also mention that you haven't given defenses for the charges against you very well. They are, I believe:

1) Stating philosophy A as a reason to FoS someone then switching to the direct opposite to FoS someone else.
2) Lurking, hiding, and giving half-assed posts, logic and answers
3) And the previous reasons for the wagon that had formed on you previously.

I'd also like to add that a real cop, in my opinion, wouldn't have claimed that way. They would have done their best to get out of a lynch

without claiming

first, because as I said, if you ARE the cop, you're bloody useless to us now. Your claim feels like a half-assed last ditch self-preservation effort.

Confirm Vote: Skitzer

BTW, what the hell is, "That way, If I get lynched, It'll be because I told the truth."?

[Gorrad]

Unvote

I'm going to vote Chaz as soon as Yos posts his did/will protect post. The Yvonne wagon's going nowhere and Chaz is my second choice. I don't care if this is L-1 or hammer vote, the only thing holding up the day is Yos.

I don't like this post in context with your previous quickhammer of the cop after his claim. While I do feel that I probably would not have believed his claim either, you made a decision for the entire town and you were wrong. What is the harm in having more discussion?

The attitude you show in the post I just quoted is not any different than the attitude you had regarding hammering Skitzer without any further discussion. In my view, that indicates little consideration or reflection on your previous actions, because you haven't changed at all that I can see. I think town would be more mindful of their previous actions and behave differently in future; you haven't done that.

unvote; vote: Gorrad

So you disagree with me that there would not have been considerably more to say after Yos' claim of possible targets had I not said anything?

[Gorrad]

I also don't like that you tried to direct suspicion off of yourself by using

my

logic. Just because I'm confirmed town doesn't make it less scummy for you to point to my words and say, "Yeah, that! I did it because of those reasons!"

I didn't do it because you were confirmed town. I did it because it was a timesaver. You'll see me do this in other games too- if someone has summed up an argument well, I'll often quote them rather than taking the time to make a post near-identical to theirs. Frankly, when I saw the post, your confirmed status didn't even cross my mind.

[Gorrad]

Nice catch, Mizzy. Skitzer, will you clarify this please? I don't like it at all, but I'm willing to give you a shot at defending yourself.

Here's the thing. I gave him a shot to defend himself. He blew it with an unbelievable claim, no results given even at L-1. What protown person would withhold results at L-1? Yos, you're right. I DIDN'T express significant suspicion on him beforehand, contrary to the contents of my selective memory. I was very tunnel-visioned with YS. After that claim and the points Mizzy brought up (that I agreed with, even if I hadn't said that much) I simply couldn't believe he was town.

[Gorrad]

Gorrad, he didn't have any results. It was day 1, and patrick states in one of his opening posts that protown power roles find out their role at the beginning of day 1. Also, please stop ignoring my posts. You have not yet addressed even remotely why you are voting for chaz. Also, if you always use other's peoples reasons, mind pointing us to some games where you do so instead of simply saying you do.

1: Oh, he didn't have any night choices? Right. I probably should have noticed the lack of NK ><. Well, I didn't see that.

2: Because a YS lynch isn't looking likely at all.

3: The best example is in an ongoing game, I'll see if I can dig up an example from a finished one. I don't ALWAYS do it, but I do so when aplicable (Which, actually, isn't very common).

[Gorrad]

Unvote

I'm going to vote Chaz as soon as Yos posts his did/will protect post. The Yvonne wagon's going nowhere and Chaz is my second choice. I don't care if this is L-1 or hammer vote, the only thing holding up the day is Yos.

So here's a question...Yos has posted his protect targets. So why didn't you hammer like you said you would? I'm not saying I'm upset that you didn't (in fact I'm glad you flaked,) I'm just interested in why you didn't do what you said you would do. He posted his protect claim an hour after you posted the above.

Please no one hammer.

Cripes, I hate people at -1L when there's answers to be given, yet.

Becuase I had voted him two posts before...

[Gorrad]

Why are we revealing who we would have protected as doc?

If it's true that there was a successful protect last night, the scum know who they targetted and they can easily narrow down the weak doc through this. Unless you're suggesting that the weak doc lie, which defeats the purpose.

This is not for last night, or wasn't supposed to be, but for tonight. Who would you protect tonight?

Yes, but it's already turned into a "Let's help scum find the doc" session. I don't even know why JDodge would ask this.

As for tonight, I'll suicide on Gorrad as a weak doc.

[Gorrad]

No worries.

[Gorrad]

I'd like to propose a theory. Porochaz is scum because it's been a good while since we've gotten out of talk-about-Yos'-ideas phase, he's been at L-1 also a good while, and he's not lynched yet.

[Gorrad]

I'd like to propose a theory. Porochaz is scum because it's been a good while since we've gotten out of talk-about-Yos'-ideas phase, he's been at L-1 also a good while, and he's not lynched yet.

After your hammer mistake, do you really think that any scummers would do the same at this point?

I think they'd hammer now that it seems everyone's had their say, yes. I wouldn't expect a hammer while there' more to discuss, but there doesn't seem to be.

Also, consider the number of people who claimed that they'd target me tonight if they were weak doc compared to the number who said they'd target Porochaz. If I'm lynched and they target scum, their night action tonight is wasted. If Porochaz is lynched and the weak doc targets me, then I'm confirmed and you all say 'Shucky-darn, I guess people like YS were playing us for fools.' There's plenty of time for me to be lynched later, but at least give me a shot at confirmation.

[Gorrad]

Yeah, in theory, except then if the weak doc is among them, (s)he dies.

[Gorrad]

Yup, still here. Good posts, eldrad, nothing that I need to cover, I believe.

[Gorrad]

I object to you hammerin Gorrad.

[Gorrad]

Very good game. I think encryptor actually did us in. We made a very nice and neat plan that completely crumbled as soon as Porochaz wasn't lynched.

[Gorrad]

Yos, your leetness has pwned us all.

[Gorrad]

Thanks. I woulda gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids.